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In heralds of Galactus 2 it becomes clear that all "Cosmic experts" theories on the Marvel Universe are not quite right. We have Cosmic Consonance to follow. The energy of the Crunch is certainly not the Phoenix Force or a manifestation of Eternity or the Power Primordial yet it is the Energy that started the Universe according to "Mr Purple Skirt Fork Hat". Galactus is above Chaos and Order according to this issue also. So is it time we threw away the rule book and just accepted things change weekly at Marvel and enjoy the great stories?

welcome to the fold. 313

Interesting question..one i am pondering myself
Phoenix could still be the catalyst for the crunch-she just starts the events that lead to and ending and a rebirth of an universe,

Here is some more questions

Is galactus the same as these primordial gods?
Were each of them a survivor of a previous universe?
Is Galactus's mission of consonance=Power?
Galactus killed the leader and imprisoned the rest,is there no debate one on one Galactus wins against them?

Crunch.....It sounds like a cereal name.ermm

Originally posted by starlock
Interesting question..one i am pondering myself
Phoenix could still be the catalyst for the crunch-she just starts the events that lead to and ending and a rebirth of an universe,

Here is some more questions

Is galactus the same as these primordial gods?
Were each of them a survivor of a previous universe?
Is Galactus's mission of consonance=Power?
Galactus killed the leader and imprisoned the rest,is there no debate one on one Galactus wins against them?

I don't think Phoenix starts the cunch, I think the crunch is a reference to anoutdated idea in Physics. That of the self perpetuating Universal cycle where everything returns to the primordial crunch before the cycle stars again.


No he is not the same they were created by the energy in the crunch as avatars of cosmic consonance (is that Eternity? I don't think so). He was not he states Cosmic Consonance gave him a higher purpose and his language that issues sets himself from before them.

The "Last Galactus story" has him turn to face an adversary, he was seen as the Universes protector.

Who knows, Marvel seem to change things at a whim.

In Annihilation prologue, the Crunch was described as a barrier at the edge of the universe.

According to modern scientific theories, the physical universe has no edge or barrier, it loops back in on itself, so if you go far enough, you'll end up back where you started from. So therefore the Marvel 616 universe must have different cosmology from our own (of course we knew that already).

Originally posted by Endless Mike
According to modern scientific theories, the physical universe has no edge or barrier, it loops back in on itself, so if you go far enough, you'll end up back where you started from. Now how in the hell can any scientist(s) possibly know that?

Grant it that's just a theory, but still...

Originally posted by Endless Mike
In Annihilation prologue, the Crunch was described as a barrier at the edge of the universe.

According to modern scientific theories, the physical universe has no edge or barrier, it loops back in on itself, so if you go far enough, you'll end up back where you started from. So therefore the Marvel 616 universe must have different cosmology from our own (of course we knew that already).

Yes that's how space/time works as a self contained "Bubble' a bit like a mobius strip in our Universe. So the crunch is abit like the Source Wall in DC? The edge of one and the start of another Universe interesting.

Originally posted by Galan007
Now how in the hell can any scientist(s) possibly know that?

Grant it that's just a theory, but still...

By modeling the curvature of space with deep space instruments and such.... very technical. I'm no expert on it.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
By modeling the curvature of space with deep space instruments and such.... very technical. I'm no expert on it.

Yes it's to do with how the Galaxies are moving apart they appear on a curve or bubble which itself is expanding. It's still only a theory.

Well technically a scientific theory is different from a hypothesis, as a scientific theory is a model that explains observations, but it can be changed or even discarded if new evidence appears that contradicts it.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Well technically a scientific theory is different from a hypothesis, as a scientific theory is a model that explains observations, but it can be changed or even discarded if new evidence appears that contradicts it.

It certainly can like the joining of the laws of conservation of mass and energy into the first Law of Thermodynamics.

So how do you think the crunch impacts on Marvels cosmic hierarchy? I think it's another retconn.

Originally posted by zozo_yoyo_xoxo
It certainly can like the joining of the laws of conservation of mass and energy into the first Law of Thermodynamics. Those two go hand in hand though. (especially when talking about heat)

Originally posted by Galan007
Those two go hand in hand though. (especially when talking about heat)

They do since Einstein recognised Mass as a form of energy, they did not prior to this.

Anyway, back on topic, another idea I have is that it could possibly just be a barrier between the 616 universe and the Negative zone, as that's where the Annihilation Wave emerged from

Originally posted by zozo_yoyo_xoxo
They do since Einstein recognised Mass as a form of energy, they did not prior to this.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Anyway, back on topic, another idea I have is that it could possibly just be a barrier between the 616 universe and the Negative zone, as that's where the Annihilation Wave emerged from Kind of a limbo zone, so to speak?

Originally posted by zozo_yoyo_xoxo
In heralds of Galactus 2 it becomes clear that all "Cosmic experts" theories on the Marvel Universe are not quite right. We have Cosmic Consonance to follow. The energy of the Crunch is certainly not the Phoenix Force or a manifestation of Eternity or the Power Primordial yet it is the Energy that started the Universe according to "Mr Purple Skirt Fork Hat". Galactus is above Chaos and Order according to this issue also. So is it time we threw away the rule book and just accepted things change weekly at Marvel and enjoy the great stories?

The technical term for physics and cosmology in Marvel is known as:

"sententia quisquis sanus bonus gratia planto fabula opus"

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
The technical term for physics and cosmology in Marvel is known as:

"sententia quisquis sanus bonus gratia planto fabula opus"

Latin, right? Can we have a translation?

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Latin, right? Can we have a translation?

Roughly it means:

"Saying whatever sounds good in order to make the story work"

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Roughly it means:

"Saying whatever sounds good in order to make the story work"

Damn, I'd just logged on and was going to translate it. It's pig latin really.

Originally posted by zozo_yoyo_xoxo
Damn, I'd just logged on and was going to translate it. It's pig latin really.

not really

PigLatin and imperfect Latin are very different things.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
not really

PigLatin and imperfect Latin are very different things.

Well it's certainly imperfect.

it was still clever (and an accurate analysis of comic cosmology)

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
it was still clever (and an accurate analysis of comic cosmology)

It was that, it was also kind of a latin paraphrase of the end of my thread starter post in another tense

Originally posted by Endless Mike
According to modern scientific theories, the physical universe has no edge or barrier, it loops back in on itself, so if you go far enough, you'll end up back where you started from. Originally posted by Endless Mike
By modeling the curvature of space with deep space instruments and such.... Originally posted by zozo_yoyo_xoxo
Yes it's to do with how the Galaxies are moving apart they appear on a curve or bubble which itself is expanding. It's still only a theory. That's the theory huh?


It's a known fact that the Universe is expanding exponentially, so if this theory is correct, eventually the Universe would expand to such a degree that it would collide with itself where it first started.


hmm

No, that's not the way it works.

Think of the universe as the outside surface of a balloon, and all the galaxies are dots drawn on the balloon with a marker.

As air is pumped into the balloon, it expands, and the dots get farther away from each other, but they don't crash into each other.

Originally posted by Galan007
That's the theory huh?


It's a known fact that the Universe is expanding exponentially, so if this theory is correct, eventually the Universe would expand to such a degree that it would collide with itself where it first started.


hmm

The problem with that analysis is that nothing says the universe had to start anywhere.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
The problem with that analysis is that nothing says the universe had to start anywhere. Well to put it in another way, if this theory is accurate, the Universe would collide with itself from the point where it initially started expanding.

Because the Universe had to have began expanding somewhere.

Originally posted by Galan007
Well to put it in another way, if this theory is accurate, the Universe would collide with itself from the point where it initially started expanding.

And we do know the Universe began expanding somewhere.

Actually we don't know that

And even if we did is still wouldn't bump into itself.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Actually we don't know that If something expands, it started expanding from somewhere.

The Universe used to be much smaller, now it is much bigger..... It started from somewhere.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
And even if we did is still wouldn't bump into itself. If this theory is to be believed, I don't see why it wouldn't.

The universe didn't begin expanding somewhere, it began expanding everywhere.

It's just at the Big Bang, "everywhere" was confined to a very small space, and then it expanded. There was no one place where it started.

Originally posted by Galan007
If something expands, it started expanding from somewhere.

The Universe used to be much smaller, now it is much bigger..... It started from somewhere.

No quite.

If you take a balloon and suck all the air out of it and then then inflate it again there is not point that it part of the balloon where the expansion began.

Originally posted by Galan007
If this theory is to be believed, I don't see why it wouldn't.

Mainly since it has a limitless quantum vaccum into which it can expand. The only thing that would cause trouble would be if it fell back in on itself (due to the mass inside) or froze (due to there being too much space)

Originally posted by Endless Mike
The universe didn't begin expanding somewhere, it began expanding everywhere.

It's just at the Big Bang, "everywhere" was confined to a very small space, and then it expanded. There was no one place where it started. I understand that, but there was unquestionably point(s) of expansion...

Any one of these near infinite ammount of points is where the Universe would collide with itself, if this theory is correct.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
No quite.

If you take a balloon and suck all the air out of it and then then inflate it again there is not point that it part of the balloon where the expansion began.The expansion point is the nipple , that you're blowing into........ Which expands the balloon.
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Mainly since it has a limitless quantum vaccum into which it can expand. The only thing that would cause trouble would be if it fell back in on itself (due to the mass inside) or froze (due to there being too much space) What it sounds like this theory is saying, is that if something travels in one or any direction in this Universe, it will eventually end up where it first started.

I don't see how this would be any different for an expanding Universe.


(I do think that theory is BS though)...

Originally posted by Galan007
What it sounds like this theory is saying, it that if something travels in one or any direction, that it will eventually end up where it first started.

Only if you're a sperate object traveling on the balloon's surface.

Originally posted by Galan007
I don't see how this would be any different for an expanding Universe.


(I do think that theory is BS though)...

Every point in space is moving away from every other point in space not toward it

There is no nipple, that's just an analogy.

Think of it as an expanding sphere (even though it's higher dimensional than that)

What is expanding is spacetime itself, all of it at once. Every galactic cluster is moving slowly away from every other one.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Only if you're a sperate object traveling on the balloon's surface.

Every point in space is moving away from every other point in space not toward it Again, this theory makes it seem as though the Universe itself is almost a sperical shape, so if something travels in one direction for long enough, it would eventually come back to it's starting point.

I have no clue as to the specifics of this theory, that's just my general impression.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
There is no nipple, that's just an analogy.

Think of it as an expanding sphere (even though it's higher dimensional than that)

What is expanding is spacetime itself, all of it at once. Every galactic cluster is moving slowly away from every other one. If you're viewing the Universe as a Sphereical shape, eventually something expanding within this sphere would meet with itself at some point.

Unless it expands infinitely of course

Originally posted by Galan007
Again, this theory makes it seem as though the Universe itself is almost a sperical shape, so if something travels in one direction for long enough, it would eventually come back to it's starting point.

I have no clue as to the specifics of this theory, that's just my general impression.

Its much more complex than spherical. But when compared to the universe itself every object within it is one dimension lower and in a closed system.

Imagine a line going in a circle.
Imagine a triangle sliding along a sphere.
Imagine a 3D space ship moving in an equivalent manner though 4D or higher space.

Its an odd theory but it does work for the most part.


I see what you're saying now. The reason it doesn't bump into itself is that points that are part of the balloon don't act the same way as points traveling on it.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
I see what you're saying now. The reason it doesn't bump into itself is that points that are part of the balloon don't act the same way as points traveling on it. K, that was my main question, (it's still kind of sketchy though).

That theory has so many "what if's", or "maybe's" that it's ridiculous.

Originally posted by Galan007
K, that was my main question, (it's still kind of sketchy though).

That theory has so many "what if's", or "maybe's" that it's ridiculous.

srug Welcome to theortical physics. You should try reading a paragraph on StringTheory.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Its much more complex than spherical. I agree, but how else could you describe something eventually ending up where it started out?

This theory makes the Universe itself sound like the "Train Station" in the second Matrix movie...

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
srug Welcome to theortical physics. You should try reading a paragraph on StringTheory. I can't stand trying to read any sort of Theories/Theorems....... Because that's when crap like this comes up.


I'll stick with Laws/Principles....... With the occasional Hypothesis every now and then

Originally posted by Galan007
I agree, but how else could you describe something eventually ending up where it started out?

Explain? Well since the human mind quite literally cannot comprehend 4D space the balloon analogy is the only possibility.

Originally posted by Galan007
This theory makes the Universe itself sound like the "Train Station" in the second Matrix movie...

There are more irritating theories out there.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
There are more irritating theories out there. The fact that the human race has only viewed an approximate 13.7 billion light-year radius around Earth, yet we're trying to comprehend an infinite Universe....... Is what makes theories this this one ridiculous IMO.

The universe is not infinite. Otherwise it could not be expanding.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
The universe is not infinite. Otherwise it could not be expanding. Ahhh, but it could be expanding infinitely.

But as it exists now, the Universe isn't infinite, if it ever stopped expanding for the rest of eternity, it still wouldn't be infinite....... But the Universe is certainly MUCH larger in comparison then what the human race has viewed of it.

Originally posted by Galan007
Ahhh, but it could be expanding infinitely.



Ths is actually one of the main theories at the moment.

Originally posted by zozo_yoyo_xoxo
Ths is actually one of the main theories at the moment. The Universe expanding is a scientific fact.

They just don't know how long it will continue to expand, (it could continue to expand infinitely, or it could stop expanding tomorrow).

Originally posted by Galan007
The Universe expanding is a scientific fact.

They just don't know how long it will continue to expand.

No one of the leading ideas is it will continue to expand indefinately till all energy becomes diffuse to the point that the universe has hied. It will rely on how much dark energy and not dark matter is out there.

Originally posted by zozo_yoyo_xoxo
No one of the leading ideas is it will continue to expand indefinately till all energy becomes diffuse to the point that the universe has hied. It will rely on how much dark energy and not dark matter is out there. I've also heard that if there isn't enough energy to support the Universes rate of expansion, the Universe might "fold back" on itself, in a manner of speaking.

Originally posted by Galan007
I've also heard that if there isn't enough energy to support the Universes rate of expansion, the Universe might "fold back" on itself, in a manner of speaking.

This is also possible except it's less likely. The "rubber band" effect tends to use a fudge factor to avoid the fact entropy may prevent a total collapse.

Originally posted by zozo_yoyo_xoxo
This is also possible except it's less likely. The "rubber band" effect tends to use a fudge factor to avoid the fact entropy may prevent a total collapse. Damn theories lol.

the universe is not expanding we(all matter) are just geting smaller

Originally posted by xjustice69x
the universe is not expanding we(all matter) are just geting smaller Wierd...

you should never abhere to the marvel rule book, every single time they change something in a comic book you can just throw the thing away from one giant event to the next if possible.

Originally posted by Galan007
Wierd...
haha i know but its possible. and we proly could not prove it wrong.
lol the crunch is making us smaller! till everything gets so small and explodes/impoldes in a big bang event every where matter existed in the universe. thus the universe expanding in all directions infinetly every where.
me em cunfused now

Originally posted by xjustice69x
haha i know but its possible. and we proly could not prove it wrong.
lol the crunch is making us smaller! till everything gets so small and explodes/impoldes in a big bang event every where matter existed in the universe. thus the universe expanding in all directions infinetly every where.
me em cunfused now We know the Universe is moving away from us though, and thus is expanding.

We aren't shrinking lol.

but if all matter in the universe was getinmg smaller at the same time. would it not seem that the universe it self was geting bigger in relation to us( the matter)
infact how els could one explain everything moving further away from everything els?
like stuffing a kiddie pool full of rubber ducks then shrink all of them slowly and thay will get further away from each other
lol

interesting set of theories but actually from a real world point of view, the universe isnt gonna collide with itself becuase that would imply that there is another area of "spherical space" that all the matter and energy in our universe is trapped in...which there isnt. i know its tempting to look at it like that tho...say for example, if you sail from australia going west eventually you'll start end up where you started but approach from the east thats a simplistic view of course ut we shouldnt think that way.

leading scientists approximate that the universe is expanding at a million miles per hour in all directions. that's something reminiscent of an explosion, hence the big bang thoery. they also hypothesize that once all that matter reach a breaking point its not gonna dissipate an fade away( energy cant be destroyed and all that), but rather its gonna coalsece, and fall back inward on it self.

meaning that since all stars have a shelf life, and they all have to go nova one day all that energy of all the stars whenever they feel like burning out will cuase the universe to implode on itslef, and all that energy is gonna collect to a singularity, and theoretically cuase another big bang and create another universe.

so this crunch thing is cool for marvel for the time being, i like this idea better the negative zone being our mirror opposite and the more we expand the more thier "space" decreases rather than just another dimension occupying the same space but just vibrating at different frequencies. DC pretty much wrote the book on that bullshit already, even though the Ultimate UNiverse depicts the multiverse being younger universes stacked a top older ones as thier ages progresses and thats cool too, but i wanna see how far marvel takes this new idea tho, if and how the PF and the power primordial is gonna get thrown out of the window

Originally posted by manjaro
interesting set of theories but actually from a real world point of view, the universe isnt gonna collide with itself becuase that would imply that there is another area of "spherical space" that all the matter and energy in our universe is trapped in...which there isnt. i know its tempting to look at it like that tho...say for example, if you sail from australia going west eventually you'll start end up where you started but approach from the east thats a simplistic view of course ut we shouldnt think that way.

leading scientists approximate that the universe is expanding at a million miles per hour in all directions. that's something reminiscent of an explosion, hence the big bang thoery. they also hypothesize that once all that matter reach a breaking point its not gonna dissipate an fade away( energy cant be destroyed and all that), but rather its gonna coalsece, and fall back inward on it self.

meaning that since all stars have a shelf life, and they all have to go nova one day all that energy of all the stars whenever they feel like burning out will cuase the universe to implode on itslef, and all that energy is gonna collect to a singularity, and theoretically cuase another big bang and create another universe.

so this crunch thing is cool for marvel for the time being, i like this idea better the negative zone being our mirror opposite and the more we expand the more thier "space" decreases rather than just another dimension occupying the same space but just vibrating at different frequencies. DC pretty much wrote the book on that bullshit already, even though the Ultimate UNiverse depicts the multiverse being younger universes stacked a top older ones as thier ages progresses and thats cool too, but i wanna see how far marvel takes this new idea tho, if and how the PF and the power primordial is gonna get thrown out of the window

Sorry most of this is wrong. Not all stars do go Nova due to not having enough mass. Sol our Sun will become Helium and then eventually several more transformations down the line iron.

The Universe is expanding. "If" it continues to expand or not depends on Dark matter and Dark energy, and yes space time is considered a type of bubble. Sorry to burst your ballon there.

well i dont exactly have a PHD in astrophysics, and quantum mechanics so no need to get all smarmy about it. all stars do have a shelf life, all stars will eventually run out of energy, whether or not they will go nova is anyone's guess. my point was to illustrate that scientists think that all that energy is gonna implode, rather than dissipate. i wasnt getting up on a soap box or anything. well the bubble thing is one way to look at it. maybe there are multitudes of bubbles out there that contain universe and the space in between each individual bubble is just pure dark matter

Our sun will eventually run out of hydrogen to fuse in the core, then become a red giant, and eventually collapse into a white dwarf, which will then eventually cool down into a brown dwarf.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Our sun will eventually run out of hydrogen to fuse in the core, then become a red giant, and eventually collapse into a white dwarf, which will then eventually cool down into a brown dwarf. But before this, our Sun will become a Giant Star, (fortunately this isn't estimated to happen for at least another 5 billion years or so).

Did you miss where I said "red giant"?

Originally posted by Galan007
But before this, our Sun will become a Giant Star, (fortunately this isn't estimated to happen for at least another 5 billion years or so).

By which time we'll have crashed into Andromeda.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Did you miss where I said "red giant"? Yeah, I only realized you said that after my 15 minute editing thingy was up. haermmOriginally posted by Symmetric Chaos
By which time we'll have crashed into Andromeda. Is that supposed to happen within the next 5 billion years?

Originally posted by Galan007
Is that supposed to happen within the next 5 billion years?

I was watching some Discovery chanel thing a while back and they said it was going to happen in about 3 billion years or something. But don't quote me on that.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
I was watching some Discovery chanel thing a while back and they said it was going to happen in about 3 billion years or something. But don't quote me on that. Yeah, all my Astronomy book says is it will happen in billions of years, pretty vague. ermmnone

yeah we'll crash into andromeda before our sun red giants but the discovery piece said we would pass thru like a ghost, cuz gravity would prevent the planets from smashing into each other...or something like that

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
By which time we'll have crashed into Andromeda. I so want to be there for that!

Originally posted by manjaro
yeah we'll crash into andromeda before our sun red giants but the discovery piece said we would pass thru like a ghost, cuz gravity would prevent the planets from smashing into each other...or something like that If the gravity of Andromeda is that great, then couldn't it fcuk with the orbit of our planet?

as a matter of fact it will. the stars of andromeda much like ours are still milions of miles apart from each other, so i guess the fact that there is such a big gulf between planets would play a role in it preventing that from happeening, but gravity will unravel all the star's orbit of both galaxies and result in a new, twisted shaped ,super galaxy.

i want on panel proff!! any scans of these feats!?
fanboys!!
its all intresting stuff but no one realy knows what can and will happen 3 billion years from now.
the crunch is proly just some force/energy that is used by what ever sentiance is cunducting the big bang to cycle said universe

Originally posted by manjaro
as a matter of fact it will. the stars of andromeda much like ours are still milions of miles apart from each other, so i guess the fact that there is such a big gulf between planets would play a role in it preventing that from happeening, but gravity will unravel all the star's orbit of both galaxies and result in a new, twisted shaped ,super galaxy. Yeah, it would be an amalgam galaxy so to speak, and IF our planet is still alive by this time (which is doubtful), we're screwed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Crunch