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who takes it?

Originally posted by lordboo
who takes it?

1. Beyonder

2. Jaspers/Fury

3. Phoenix

1. Beyonder

2. Phoenix

3. Jaspers/Fury

Originally posted by Xplosive
1. Beyonder

2. Phoenix

3. Jaspers/Fury

No, Mr. M had it right. Jaspers is over the phoenix force.

beyonder
phoenix
jaspers
imo

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
No, Mr. M had it right. Jaspers is over the phoenix force.



I only gave Beyonder the win because Beyonder can erase everything,

giving Jaspers absolutely no place to draw Reality from.

Phoenix on the other hand can't pull off that teleporting to Un-Space thingy,

with the Fury's ultra Teleportation capabilities,

Jaspers will just pop back or into another Reality and fight from there.




Anyhow, Phoenix can't teleport that quickly anyway.



Look at the Process the Actual Phoenix Force has to go through to travel through Time & Space across vast distances to other Universes:



The Phoenix Force (Host-LESS) was Owned by these 6 cats:

http://img295.imageshack.us/img295/3901/6rh9.th.jpg

"The assembled Heroes are TIRED & BATTERED,

the Phoenix is Reborn and FRESH"

http://img161.imageshack.us/img161/9686/f12xp8.th.jpg

And they're STILL holding their own.

Mind you ROGUE is one of the 6.





The Six heroes BEAT (Physically) the Phoenix Force into and through a Portal:

http://img431.imageshack.us/img431/2667/f14nz2.th.jpg






Look how long it takes for it to Teleport back to it's native Universe:

http://img79.imageshack.us/img79/3453/61ze2.th.jpg

"The Phoenix Force ends up DISPLACED by Four Billion Years"

http://img79.imageshack.us/img79/6711/62xf2.th.jpg

By this time Jaspers would have been frying the Host.

Mind you this is the Actual Force, NO Host. (FP Phoenix)

You need the Heart of the Universe/Infinite to throw down w/pre-retcon Beyonder. Anything else doesn't get the job done.

Originally posted by Xplosive
1. Beyonder

2. Phoenix

3. Jaspers/Fury

And because you also says so, you are right?
No, TricksterPriest, that is your and his opinion and not mine and I don't agree wth you.

Originally posted by Xplosive
And because you also says so, you are right?
No, TricksterPriest, that is your and his opinion and not mine and I don't agree wth you.

X, he's THE forum expert on marvel cosmics. And you have no evidence to counter his. Not to mention he can scan-blitz your ass.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
X, he's THE forum expert on marvel cosmics. And you have no evidence to counter his. Not to mention he can scan-blitz your ass. Oh for f*cks sake!

So basically, you're saying that anything he says on Marvel cosmics is right, while everyone else's opinion should be shit on?
Just because he knows a lot about things, doesn't mean he's always right, or even right half the time.

I mean no disrespect, but really? That post was laughable to say the least.

Back on topic... I agree with the first thing said.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Mind you this is the Actual Force, NO Host. (FP Phoenix)

So, Jasper isn't killing the Phoenix Force, Jasper would eventually go down.

Phoenix cannot do squat to Jaspers he is an omniversal force inmune to nullification which is more than PF can say to defend itself. You are free to have your opinion, but this is not Myx against Full powered Jaspers, in reality this is not even contested.

Originally posted by WorldWarHulk
Oh for f*cks sake!

So basically, you're saying that anything he says on Marvel cosmics is right, while everyone else's opinion should be shit on?
Just because he knows a lot about things, doesn't mean he's always right, or even right half the time.

I mean no disrespect, but really? That post was laughable to say the least.

Back on topic... I agree with the first thing said.
at least some one has some sanity
thank u!!

Originally posted by Xplosive
So, Jasper isn't killing the Phoenix Force, Jasper would eventually go down.
i agree

My friends, there is no Jasper "cannot kill the PF", for Phoenix the best would be to end the battle in a stalemate assuming that someone who absolutely controls the omniverse cannot blink her out. If PF doesn't win this battle quick, Jaspers influence will expand everywhere and things will be over. The more time it passes, the stronger Jaspers will become.

Originally posted by Bentley
My friends, there is no Jasper "cannot kill the PF", for Phoenix the best would be to end the battle in a stalemate assuming that someone who absolutely controls the omniverse cannot blink her out. If PF doesn't win this battle quick, Jaspers influence will expand everywhere and things will be over. The more time it passes, the stronger Jaspers will become.

Bently come on now
jaspers does not absolutly controle the omniverse.

Originally posted by xjustice69x
Bently come on now
jaspers does not absolutly controle the omniverse.

I like this
http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w17/guy222_photos/xm-150-01.jpg

Originally posted by WorldWarHulk
Just because he knows a lot about things, doesn't mean he's always right,

I agree.


Originally posted by WorldWarHulk
or even right half the time.

I strongly disagree.

If Merlyn who created a Universe/Multiverse from scratch,

couldn't stop Jaspers,

you best believe Phoenix isn't.


Merlyn manipulated the Jaspers saga, but it could've back fired at any time.

Merlyn truly never had control over Jaspers,

and even admitted he didn't have the power to stop him,

he did Know How to stop him of course. (hence the manipulation)



Jaspers is a tuffy yall.

And this is Jasper's merged with Fury? runforhills

How can one use Un-Space against Jaspers now?

Towards the end of the Arc,

the Fury's teleportation capabilities were unparalleled.

You are all wrong ...

1. Beyonder

2. Beyonder

3. Beyonder

4. Beyonder

5. Beyonder

6. Jim Jaspers

7. Phoenix

Yes ... It's really that much of an overkill.

Just because Fury defeated Jaspers and its your opinion that Jaspers can defeat the Force, doesnt mean that Fury could therefore defeat the Phoenix Force. Thats elementary level logic. Classic Emma Frost could take out Colossus, Colossus could take out a Sentinel, does that therefore mean that Classic Emma Frost could take out a Sentinel?

Jaspers under-estimated the Fury and was toying with him. Despite all his power he was limited by his human imagination and human experience. Instead of attacking Fury with his reality warping abilities thereby ensuring a victory, Jaspers merely used his abilities on himself to shapeshift into various animalistic forms and crudely fought the Fury hand to hand. Fury of course could withstand this sort of physical assault and it gave it a chance to formulate a strategy to take Jaspers out, which he did by teleporting Jaspers outside of reality where he was powerless.

Given that we know the scope of Jaspers abilities and we have witnessed this power, we know he never fought to his full potential against the Fury, therefore Fury defeating Jaspers, does NOT mean that Fury could therefore defeat any and everything YOU think Jaspers could defeat.

The Phoenix Force could easily disperse Fury at a sub atomic level or drain him of energy and the Fury could never kill the Phoenix Force. Its immortal, indestructible, mutable energy by canon. Shatter it, disperse it, absorb it for your own uses and re-channel it and it will still be alive and kicking.

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/10/27310301396.jpg

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/10/27310301379.jpg

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/12/35917153046.jpg

Theres nothing Fury could do to it. Hes not fighting an avatar who he could temporarily dispose of by destroying the physicality, hes fighting the life force of reality.


The Force isnt plagued by the same problems its avatar Jean is, i.e disorientation upon hatching from a Phoenix Egg, or disorientation from being temporaily disconnected from the Forces Consciousness because this IS the Force unrestricted by physicality. The Force could amputate any part of Eternitys timeline, his future as we saw or if it chose his past, both resulting in his non existence and the Force would do it in alot less time than a physical avatar. So posting scans of Jean getting her head together before actually amputating the future reality wont cut it here.

Just to summarize, Fury didnt fight and defeat a Jaspers fighting at full potential, therefore even if its your opinion that Jaspers can take out any of the listed opponents, you cannot therefore claim Fury could defeat any and anyone you believe Jaspers can.

The Force is the life force of reality, just being sentient within reality drains reality's collective life energy reserve. Its avatars have manipulated Eternity in the palm of their hands at an atomic level, first after the telekinetic amputation, (after which Jean held the future state of Eternity, a divergent possible future reality 15104 in her hand where it was later disposed of) and secondly when Jean materialised the rest of the timeline in her palm telekinetically to heal the wound she had inflicted on it by altering the past (i.e Cyclops reaction to Emma) thereby growing a new future to replace the one she had just cut away.

The Force would be easily capable of that and so much more.

Jaspers couldnt destroy the Force. The Force could teleport him out reality into the void, or it could telekinetically rip reality away from around him(certainly feasible if one of its avatars can wield telekinetic control of a reality down to its atoms) either option resulting in a powerless Jaspers.

Or the Force could be cheap and take Jaspers out of the equation before he could blink an eye. Jaspers needs to apply his power to himself to make his physicality anything more than human, he needs to either do that directly or he needs to create a reality warp an area of reality where he determines the laws. Either way with his very human reactons the Force could snipe him before he even registers whats hhappening to him.

Phoenix is greater than Jaspers(dont go off on a tangent about his supposed omniversal potential which is irrelevant when it was never ever realised on panel)

Originally posted by Mr Master


I only gave Beyonder the win because Beyonder can erase everything,

giving Jaspers absolutely no place to draw Reality from.

Phoenix on the other hand can't pull off that teleporting to Un-Space thingy,

with the Fury's ultra Teleportation capabilities,

Jaspers will just pop back or into another Reality and fight from there.

If one of Phoenixes avatars can control a reality telekinetically down to its atoms then the Phoenix Force could easily tear the reality from around Jaspers leaving him powerless.

Not true at all. Fury merely teleported Jaspers into the void. Are you really going to try and say the Phoenix Force cant teleport Jaspers into the void like Fury did? Based on what? We're talking a high powered cosmic force here and youre going to try and have people believe it cant teleport like a robot can?

Your last line says "Jaspers will just pop back or into another Reality and fight from there." How exactly would he do that if he taken outside of reality? He needs reality as a medium to express his powers, taken outside of reality he will not be doing any popping back but instead alot of dying.




Originally posted by Mr Master
Anyhow, Phoenix can't teleport that quickly anyway.



Look at the Process the Actual Phoenix Force has to go through to travel through Time & Space across vast distances to other Universes:



The Phoenix Force (Host-LESS) was Owned by these 6 cats:


"The assembled Heroes are TIRED & BATTERED,

the Phoenix is Reborn and FRESH"



And they're STILL holding their own.

Mind you ROGUE is one of the 6.


The Six heroes BEAT (Physically) the Phoenix Force into and through a Portal:





I like how you're ignoring the fact that the Firebird is NOT the full Phoenix Force but instead an AVATAR of the Force.

"At the moment of alignment Feron called on the PHOENIX AVATAR":

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/11/30621401412.jpg

"But instead tore out the portion of the Phoenix Force that bonded his student to the AVATAR":

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/11/30621401429.jpg

"The COSMIC AVATAR she hosts erupts from its psychic confines"

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/11/30621401443.jpg

The Phoenix Force is the life force of reality by canon, so for that firebird to be the full Force there would be no life anywhere else on panel and only that firebird. That firebird is a representation of the life force of reality at a universal level. The firebird is NOT necessarily the full Phoenix Force.

On top of that this AVATAR was not at full power because it was away from the universe from which it derives its power from..616:

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/10/27308042068.jpg

Which explains this representation of the Forces showing in that issue you presented here Mr Master. However as we're talking about the FP Phoenix Force here, using those scans and trying to present them as representative of the FP Phoenix Force is a useless exercise when those scans dont feature the FP Phoenix Force.




Originally posted by Mr Master
Look how long it takes for it to Teleport back to it's native Universe:



"The Phoenix Force ends up DISPLACED by Four Billion Years"



By this time Jaspers would have been frying the Host.

So because the Firebird avatar chooses to teleport in this fashion in this one instance means that its limited to this method of teleporting, despite the fact that the avatars it powers can have teleported differently and despite the fact that lesser powers such as Nightcrawler, Blink, Lila Cheney and Silver Surfer for example, can teleport differently and yet you'd have us believe the Phoenix Force is stuck with this?

Have you forgotten how Rachel Summers teleported all of the heroes to the Colorado Mountains for their final confrontation with Beyonder during Secret Wars 2?

Or how about when Jean shifts herself from reality into the home dimension of the Phoenix Corps just like that after amputating the future?

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/9/25811295795.jpg

Or the multiple occassions human hosts have opened stargates for themselves?

Rachel:

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/11/30621401542.jpg

Jean:

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/10/29007380829.jpg

Originally posted by Mr Master
Mind you this is the Actual Force, NO Host. (FP Phoenix)

Its the avatar of the Force. Not the full Force. What seems to have confused you is the fact that its referred to as the Phoenix Force. A droplet of water from a glass full of the stuff is still referred to as water. It is canon that the Force is the life force of reality, so you know that firebird isnt the totality of the Force, plus theres the fact thats its stated straight up on panel that the firebird is the avatar of the Phoenix Force. That doesnt mean that that Firebird cant be referred to as the Phoenix Force, because it is, its the Forces representation, you're just mistaken to believe its the whole of the Force.

1.Beyonder
2.Jaspers
3.Phoenix

In terms of actual on panel feats, the Force and its avatars in their highest showings have the others beat.

None of the others have feats greater than telekinetically amputating a future from the rest of reality, nowhere in Marvel have i ever seen a being able to cut away at the very substance of time/space and then hold it in the palm of their hands like it was a toy. After that future reality was discarded Jean again used her telekinetic powers to manipulate a reality down to its atoms materializing it within the palm of her hand for treatment after having wounded it by cutting off its future.

So twice Jean has through telekinesis manipulated an entire reality with all that energy, all that matter and held it in her hands like it was nothing. The second time she materialized the reality from one location to the palm of her hand. Just think about all of that matter, all the galaxies, solar systems, stars, planets and lifeforms she atomically dispersed and then reformed in the palm of her hand. An entire universes worth. Think of the power required to pull that off.

Average Phoenix showings have avatars beating down Galactus level cosmics, imbuing planets with life, eating stars, planets, casually blowing up solar systems, but Jeans feats in New X-men are unparalleled.

In terms of presentation however, i.e how the characters are regarded, Pre retcon Beyonder definitely comes out on top. Whats certain though is both characters are beyond the Jaspers/Fury combo.

Originally posted by Estacado
1.Beyonder
2.Jaspers
3.Phoenix

And as per usual no argument to back up that opinion.

Jaspers needs to apply his power to himself to make himself anything other than human, Jaspers has human reaction times and durability. He would be taken out of the equation before he could blink.

Or Phoenix could just teleport him to the void, or tear reality away from around him. Either way he could do nothing to the Force and yet the Force could do alot to him.

Reality isnt the be all and end all of the Force. The Force as stated exists simultaneously within reality and outside it, Jaspers' power is limited to reality. He could never kill the Force and yet the Force could remove him from the medium he needs to express his power or it could remove that medium from him.

Force wins over Jaspers.

For all the talk about his omniversal destructive potential, it was only a potential and it was one that was never realised as he got sniped before he could do anything particularly impressive.

nice post's GS!!
i agree about jaspers and his"omniversal" status.
can merlins word always be trusted?
as GS stated jaspers never relized his "omniversal" potential.
it will take him time to get to that level even if it is truly possible for him to do so.
the beyonder and the phoenix will have dispached of him long befor that happens.
imo the phoenix would turn him in to penut butter befor he could do a thing.

Oh I forgot!!!!!
Lt was kneeling before the Phoenix Force!!!!!!

Originally posted by Estacado
Oh I forgot!!!!!
Lt was kneeling before the Phoenix Force!!!!!!

Get over it Juggs.

That issue was squashed long ago and my innocence was declared.

You on the other hand are still carrying pain and grief from the past so are coming on here and instead of countering my posts you merely post an opposing verdict out of spite. Thats really quite sad.

Not even your master does that bullsh*t.

Seems my past victories have left you somewhat traumatized. I pity you. Hopefully someday soon you'll get over me.

This person is on your Ignore List. To view this post click
You must wrote some arrogant crap again but I don't even bother reading it.

Originally posted by xjustice69x
nice post's GS!!
i agree about jaspers and his"omniversal" status.
can merlins word always be trusted?
as GS stated jaspers never relized his "omniversal" potential.
it will take him time to get to that level even if it is truly possible for him to do so.
the beyonder and the phoenix will have dispached of him long befor that happens.
imo the phoenix would turn him in to penut butter befor he could do a thing.

Thank you.

Good point about Merlyns word. He is known to be deceitful and is known to lie and say things in order to manipulate people into carrying out his own agenda. That point was illustrated in detail in Excalibur #50.

Good to have you back GS. It's always fun for you and Master to bite each others heads off...

There are so many holes in his arguements, it's amazing. I'll let Mr. Master deal with this bozo.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
There are so many holes in his arguements, it's amazing. I'll let Mr. Master deal with this bozo.

Wanna actually point them out?

Cos i'll happily answer any queries you have.

Im betting i hear nothing from you again until Mr Master responds.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Just because Fury defeated Jaspers and its your opinion that Jaspers can defeat the Force, doesnt mean that Fury could therefore defeat the Phoenix Force. Thats elementary level logic. Classic Emma Frost could take out Colossus, Colossus could take out a Sentinel, does that therefore mean that Classic Emma Frost could take out a Sentinel?


Well Xavier and Jean have mind blasted Sentinels before.... So even though it shouldn't happen and makes no sense whatsoever, it's a possibility.

Anyway ABC logic sucks.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Well Xavier and Jean have mind blasted Sentinels before.... So even though it shouldn't happen and makes no sense whatsoever, it's a possibility.

Anyway ABC logic sucks.

And in the old bios of Xavier from around that time it states that he has no influence on the physical whatsoever and any incident where that occurred was a freak accident. I believe you're talking about the incident where Xavier was travelling in a boat and a Sentinel rose out of the water and attacked him? Good issue

But yes i agree, ABC logic does suck indeed.

I'll respond to anymore querys tomorrow, early start. Later guys!

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
And in the old bios of Xavier from around that time it states that he has no influence on the physical whatsoever and any incident where that occurred was a freak accident. I believe you're talking about the incident where Xavier was travelling in a boat and a Sentinel rose out of the water and attacked him? Good issue

But yes i agree, ABC logic does suck indeed.

Yep that's the issue, hmm never knew that. Well he does have latent telekinesis(Nova made use of it) so it wouldn't be that much of a surprise. Same with Emma when she effected the physical plane and brought down the building with her mind blast during the fight against Phoenix. She also has had 3 instances of latent TK well 4 if you count X-Men #188 and the fish floating but I tend to ignore that little artistic mishap, hopefully marvel never touch on that ever again.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
I'll respond to anymore querys tomorrow, early start. Later guys!

Peace

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Just because Fury defeated Jaspers and its your opinion that Jaspers can defeat the Force, doesnt mean that Fury could therefore defeat the Phoenix Force. Thats elementary level logic. Classic Emma Frost could take out Colossus, Colossus could take out a Sentinel, does that therefore mean that Classic Emma Frost could take out a Sentinel?

Jaspers under-estimated the Fury and was toying with him. Despite all his power he was limited by his human imagination and human experience. Instead of attacking Fury with his reality warping abilities thereby ensuring a victory, Jaspers merely used his abilities on himself to shapeshift into various animalistic forms and crudely fought the Fury hand to hand. Fury of course could withstand this sort of physical assault and it gave it a chance to formulate a strategy to take Jaspers out, which he did by teleporting Jaspers outside of reality where he was powerless.

Given that we know the scope of Jaspers abilities and we have witnessed this power, we know he never fought to his full potential against the Fury, therefore Fury defeating Jaspers, does NOT mean that Fury could therefore defeat any and everything YOU think Jaspers could defeat.

The Phoenix Force could easily disperse Fury at a sub atomic level or drain him of energy and the Fury could never kill the Phoenix Force. Its immortal, indestructible, mutable energy by canon. Shatter it, disperse it, absorb it for your own uses and re-channel it and it will still be alive and kicking.

Theres nothing Fury could do to it. Hes not fighting an avatar who he could temporarily dispose of by destroying the physicality, hes fighting the life force of reality.

The Force isnt plagued by the same problems its avatar Jean is, i.e disorientation upon hatching from a Phoenix Egg, or disorientation from being temporaily disconnected from the Forces Consciousness because this IS the Force unrestricted by physicality. The Force could amputate any part of Eternitys timeline, his future as we saw or if it chose his past, both resulting in his non existence and the Force would do it in alot less time than a physical avatar. So posting scans of Jean getting her head together before actually amputating the future reality wont cut it here.

Just to summarize, Fury didnt fight and defeat a Jaspers fighting at full potential, therefore even if its your opinion that Jaspers can take out any of the listed opponents, you cannot therefore claim Fury could defeat any and anyone you believe Jaspers can.

The Force is the life force of reality, just being sentient within reality drains reality's collective life energy reserve. Its avatars have manipulated Eternity in the palm of their hands at an atomic level, first after the telekinetic amputation, (after which Jean held the future state of Eternity, a divergent possible future reality 15104 in her hand where it was later disposed of) and secondly when Jean materialised the rest of the timeline in her palm telekinetically to heal the wound she had inflicted on it by altering the past (i.e Cyclops reaction to Emma) thereby growing a new future to replace the one she had just cut away.

The Force would be easily capable of that and so much more.

Jaspers couldnt destroy the Force. The Force could teleport him out reality into the void, or it could telekinetically rip reality away from around him(certainly feasible if one of its avatars can wield telekinetic control of a reality down to its atoms) either option resulting in a powerless Jaspers.

Or the Force could be cheap and take Jaspers out of the equation before he could blink an eye. Jaspers needs to apply his power to himself to make his physicality anything more than human, he needs to either do that directly or he needs to create a reality warp an area of reality where he determines the laws. Either way with his very human reactons the Force could snipe him before he even registers whats hhappening to him.

Phoenix is greater than Jaspers(dont go off on a tangent about his supposed omniversal potential which is irrelevant when it was never ever realised on panel)

Addressed.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/449146_2-phoenix-force-first-fallen-james-braddock-vs-mad-jj-fury-eternity

edit.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
If one of Phoenixes avatars can control a reality telekinetically down to its atoms then the Phoenix Force could easily tear the reality from around Jaspers leaving him powerless.

Phoneix nore any Avatar has ever tore Reality into a Void.

NEVER.


Heck, it took Jean 7 Pages just to amputate the Future of Reality 15104:


It took Phoenix A LOT of TIME to amputate that Timeline, enough TIME that her friends were dying all around her, including Wolverine at the hands of Sublime while she was working on the "amputation"

http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/8941/1cl0.th.jpg

http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/33/2bt9.th.jpg

http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/7392/3hv2.th.jpg

http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/9765/4kq4.th.jpg

http://img111.imageshack.us/img111/3948/5qz8.th.jpg


But don't take my word for it, here is Jean in her own words:


"What's happening here is a Coordinated Disinfection,

my Friends were only KEEPING YOU BUSY"

http://img111.imageshack.us/img111/3322/6pp1.th.jpg


Finally, SEVEN PAGES later Phoenix amputates that Timeline.

http://img295.imageshack.us/img295/1825/jeanxq3.th.jpg



By this time Jaspers would have turned Phoenix into a pigeon.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Not true at all. Fury merely teleported Jaspers into the void. Are you really going to try and say the Phoenix Force cant teleport Jaspers into the void like Fury did? Based on what?

How does Phoenix know it needs to teleport Jaspers into a Void?

Even so,

this Jaspers Merged with the Fury,

which means He'll just Teleport back.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
We're talking a high powered cosmic force here and youre going to try and have people believe it cant teleport like a robot can?

Correct.


Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Your last line says "Jaspers will just pop back or into another Reality and fight from there." How exactly would he do that if he taken outside of reality? He needs reality as a medium to express his powers, taken outside of reality he will not be doing any popping back but instead alot of dying.

This is Jaspers/Fury not just Jaspers.

And again,

Phoenix has no idea that's Jaspers' weakness.


Originally posted by GalacticStorm
I like how you're ignoring the fact that the Firebird is NOT the full Phoenix Force but instead an AVATAR of the Force.

"At the moment of alignment Feron called on the PHOENIX AVATAR":

"But instead tore out the portion of the Phoenix Force that bonded his student to the AVATAR":

"The COSMIC AVATAR she hosts erupts from its psychic confines"

The Phoenix Force is the life force of reality by canon, so for that firebird to be the full Force there would be no life anywhere else on panel and only that firebird. That firebird is a representation of the life force of reality at a universal level. The firebird is NOT necessarily the full Phoenix Force.

On top of that this AVATAR was not at full power because it was away from the universe from which it derives its power from..616:

Which explains this representation of the Forces showing in that issue you presented here Mr Master. However as we're talking about the FP Phoenix Force here, using those scans and trying to present them as representative of the FP Phoenix Force is a useless exercise when those scans dont feature the FP Phoenix Force.

So because the Firebird avatar chooses to teleport in this fashion in this one instance means that its limited to this method of teleporting, despite the fact that the avatars it powers can have teleported differently and despite the fact that lesser powers such as Nightcrawler, Blink, Lila Cheney and Silver Surfer for example, can teleport differently and yet you'd have us believe the Phoenix Force is stuck with this?

Inconsequential.


The Force in it's Natural State is just ambient Energy,

Un-Aware of it's own existence.

http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/9239/f1ov3.th.jpg



The Phoenix Force has NO CONSCIOUSNESS in it's Natural State

http://img150.imageshack.us/img150/5633/f3pe8.th.jpg


Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Have you forgotten how Rachel Summers teleported all of the heroes to the Colorado Mountains for their final confrontation with Beyonder during Secret Wars 2?

Teleporting instantaneously into Another Universe,

is quite Different,

to teleporting across a country.



Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Or how about when Jean shifts herself from reality into the home dimension of the Phoenix Corps just like that after amputating the future?

That's her Home Dimension.

We're talking about a Universe that has been reduced to UN-Space.


How would Phoenix know WHERE there is one?

How would Phoenix know that Jaspers' weakness in the first place?

And even then,

this is Jaspers/Fury Merged,

in which case Jaspers has the advantage concerning Teleportation.


Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Its the avatar of the Force. Not the full Force. What seems to have confused you is the fact that its referred to as the Phoenix Force. A droplet of water from a glass full of the stuff is still referred to as water. It is canon that the Force is the life force of reality, so you know that firebird isnt the totality of the Force, plus theres the fact thats its stated straight up on panel that the firebird is the avatar of the Phoenix Force. That doesnt mean that that Firebird cant be referred to as the Phoenix Force, because it is, its the Forces representation, you're just mistaken to believe its the whole of the Force.

Again,

Inconsequential.


The Force in it's Natural State is just ambient Energy,

Un-Aware of it's own existence.

Those pages you claim Jean was working to amputate the future were actually Jean getting her head together and re-establishing her connection with the Phoenix consciousness. Once that was done she amputated the future just like that:

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/9/26616072854.jpg

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/1/813040598.jpg

And then as Wolverine lay dying and everything started to fade she shifted into the Phoenix Corps dimension:

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/1/813040619.jpg

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/9/25811295795.jpg

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Those pages you claim Jean was working to amputate the future were actually Jean getting her head together and re-establishing her connection with the Phoenix consciousness. Once that was done she amputated the future just like that:

As you wish.

Oh boy, here we go again...

I'm not taking sides, but I'm not so sure Phoenix can nullify the Jaspers/Fury amalgam. RR (reality removal) was the only way to defeat Jaspers before. I'm not so sure Phoenix can go back and erase Jaspers existence. On panel many characters exist as temporal paradoxes due to their timelines ceasing to exist and many other strange happenings and many of these characters aren't nigh omnipotent reality warpers like Jaspers is. Destroying Jasper's origin may have no effect at all given that he now has Fury's adaptations as well and Fury has on panel survived nullification and travelled to unspace and back.

I'd say Beyonder would win, and between the other two it's a draw (if I were choosing sides, which I'm not).

Originally posted by Mr Master
I don't mind you having a conflicting opinion.




No need for this.

I read all relevant issues.

If my interpretation is different ... let me live.



I read these issues, and I skimmed over the scans you provided again,

Jean's memory was faulty but not her power.

It doesn't take away form this either:

http://img111.imageshack.us/img111/3322/6pp1.th.jpg
"What's happening here is a Coordinated Disinfection,
my Friends were only KEEPING YOU BUSY"



I guess we'll let the onlookers decide.

It was stated and shown that her connection with the Consciousness was disconnected. She was normal Jean until she re-established her connection at which point she amputated the future just like that.

Originally posted by Mr Master
This is Jaspers merged with the Fury "Acknowledge that."

The Fury's ability to teleport is superior to Phoenix's On Panel.

The Fury was popping into different UniverseS while getting Warped and physically attacked.

So was Jaspers. Its just teleportation. We're not talking multiversal reality warping. The Phoenix has higher on panel feats than either and is a major cosmic force, reality hopping isnt going to be a problem and to believe it is because she hasnt done it as often as Fury is fallacious

There's a major problem with that logic: Atoms don't compose reality, atoms simply exist within reality. Reality is made of spacetime, which is a substrate on which matter and energy exist. The ability to control all atoms in the universe doesn't mean the ability to destroy the universe. For an analogy, it would be like controlling all the water in a bucket, but not being able to destroy or rip apart the bucket itself.

pretcon beyonder wins anyway.

Originally posted by illadelph12
Oh boy, here we go again...

I'm not taking sides, but I'm not so sure Phoenix can nullify the Jaspers/Fury amalgam. RR (reality removal) was the only way to defeat Jaspers before. I'm not so sure Phoenix can go back and erase Jaspers existence. On panel many characters exist as temporal paradoxes due to their timelines ceasing to exist and many other strange happenings and many of these characters aren't nigh omnipotent reality warpers like Jaspers is. Destroying Jasper's origin may have no effect at all given that he now has Fury's adaptations as well and Fury has on panel survived nullification and travelled to unspace and back.

I'd say Beyonder would win, and between the other two it's a draw (if I were choosing sides, which I'm not).

Ripping reality away from the merger and atomizing it would work.

Fury did indeed survive universal nullification but was left a battered heap that needed to absorb a human woman to give it the strength it needed to repair itself.

It has limited energy reserves, it is a physical being. The Fury after its battle with Jaspers was so depleted of energy that it was destroyed by an axe to the head.

Either way theres not a thing the merger could do to the Force. It is the ambient life energy of reality. Jaspers can neither destroy it and certainly cant banish it otherwise he will render himself powerless.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
There's a major problem with that logic: Atoms don't compose reality, atoms simply exist within reality. Reality is made of spacetime, which is a substrate on which matter and energy exist. The ability to control all atoms in the universe doesn't mean the ability to destroy the universe. For an analogy, it would be like controlling all the water in a bucket, but not being able to destroy or rip apart the bucket itself.

The problem is, youre trying to analyse from a real world perspective something where comic book science applies. The Phoenix in New X-men amputated space/time like it was a physical thing and then held it in her hand via telekinesis. She again used her telekinesis to materialize reality into the palm of her hand via telekinetic control of its component atoms. As far as the comics go my strategy is solid.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Ripping reality away from the merger and atomizing it would work.

Fury did indeed survive universal nullification but was left a battered heap that needed to absorb a human woman to give it the strength it needed to repair itself.

It has limited energy reserves, it is a physical being. The Fury after its battle with Jaspers was so depleted of energy that it was destroyed by an axe to the head.

Either way theres not a thing the merger could do to the Force. It is the ambient life energy of reality. Jaspers can neither destroy it and certainly cant banish it otherwise he will render himself powerless.

Which is why I said draw.

But I'm not taking sides. I'm going back to being an impartial observer from this point in this conversation.

edit

Originally posted by Endless Mike
There's a major problem with that logic: Atoms don't compose reality, atoms simply exist within reality. Reality is made of spacetime, which is a substrate on which matter and energy exist. The ability to control all atoms in the universe doesn't mean the ability to destroy the universe. For an analogy, it would be like controlling all the water in a bucket, but not being able to destroy or rip apart the bucket itself.

This makes sense.

Which is why Reality Warpers will always be above Matter Manipulators.

Ok please don't start this now,

if you don't know what you're talking about ..... ASK!!


Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Ripping reality away from the merger and atomizing it would work.

Fury did indeed survive universal nullification but was left a battered heap that needed to absorb a human woman to give it the strength it needed to repair itself.

This is NOT True at all.

The Fury survived Universal Nullification without a scratch:


On Panel:

http://img131.imageshack.us/img131/7179/jue6.th.jpg



Bio: "survives Nullification and Jaspers' Warp"

http://img479.imageshack.us/img479/3931/f1ts5.th.jpg






It was the TRIP through UniverseS unprotected that damaged him:


"It Arrived an Hour ago"
http://img91.imageshack.us/img91/1738/j1xo0.th.jpg


"It comes from Another Universe ... it's Journey was Not pleasant, it no longer has Limbs"
http://img376.imageshack.us/img376/5505/j2sa4.th.jpg


Originally posted by GalacticStorm
It has limited energy reserves, it is a physical being. The Fury after its battle with Jaspers was so depleted of energy that it was destroyed by an axe to the head.

This is also NOT True.

The Fury was weakened after his tramendous battle with Jaspers 616,

(as if that's a low show)

But still managed to zap the cat that axed him in the back,

nearly Killed Captain Britain,

and was finally murdered by a berzerker Captain UK.



If you want the Scans,

I'll provide.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Either way theres not a thing the merger could do to the Force. It is the ambient life energy of reality. Jaspers can neither destroy it and certainly cant banish it otherwise he will render himself powerless.

Jaspers/Fury wins.

How the Fury was defeated AFTER,

battling the mighty 616 Jaspers across UniverseS:



http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/9372/f1gi6.th.jpg

http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/659/f2yr6.th.jpg

http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/723/f3ai7.th.jpg

http://img392.imageshack.us/img392/5462/f4qi8.th.jpg

http://img256.imageshack.us/img256/3875/f5em0.th.jpg

http://img256.imageshack.us/img256/5979/f6sf9.th.jpg

http://img256.imageshack.us/img256/8381/f7dp3.th.jpg


Axe to the back my nargas.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
The problem is, youre trying to analyse from a real world perspective something where comic book science applies. The Phoenix in New X-men amputated space/time like it was a physical thing and then held it in her hand via telekinesis. She again used her telekinesis to materialize reality into the palm of her hand via telekinetic control of its component atoms. As far as the comics go my strategy is solid.

But she could only do that in the White Hot Room, IIRC

Originally posted by Endless Mike
But she could only do that in the White Hot Room, IIRC

And it was the Altenate Future of a Diverged Reality at that,

where only X-Men exist.




The Future of an Alternate Reality, NOT of 616 Eternity:


By the time Jean Amputates the Future Deep in the Arc in issue #154,

the Story has been taking place in Reality 15104 since issue #150.

http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/5056/86363390rc6.th.jpg
(excerpt Official Hanbook 2005)




So it's the the Future of,

Earth-15104

"In ONE Future, Phoenix severed the Alternate Future of Reality - 15104
http://img367.imageshack.us/img367/5749/n2uo1.th.jpg
(excerpt from the OHOTMU 2006 - Mkraan Crystal bio)

"In ONE Future" (there are many Possible Futures)



Phoenix amputated the Alternate Future OF Reality 15104 ...

NOT of Reality 616 which then became 15104.

Originally posted by illadelph12
I'm not taking sides, but I'm not so sure Phoenix can nullify the Jaspers/Fury amalgam. RR (reality removal) was the only way to defeat Jaspers before. I'm not so sure Phoenix can go back and erase Jaspers existence. On panel many characters exist as temporal paradoxes due to their timelines ceasing to exist and many other strange happenings and many of these characters aren't nigh omnipotent reality warpers like Jaspers is. Destroying Jasper's origin may have no effect at all given that he now has Fury's adaptations as well and Fury has on panel survived nullification and travelled to unspace and back.

Need I say more?

Excellent ills.




btw. I saw a response to this post,

for the record,

the Fury withstood Nullification unscathed.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Either way theres not a thing the merger could do to the Force.

It is the ambient life energy of reality.

Jaspers can neither destroy it and certainly cant banish it

otherwise he will render himself powerless.




This is classic.



Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Jaspers’ power is dependent on the Forces existence

as with no Force there is no reality



Another classic in the making.


Originally posted by GalacticStorm
and yet Jaspers or the Fury cannot kill or get rid of pure energy anyway.

They simply cannot do anything.

Jaspers can do anything with any form of Reality.

Matter, Energy, you name it.

Anything.

The Phoenix is a primal force of the Universe,

no different than any other Abstract below Eternity/Infinity.



"Phoenix is ONE of the Primal Forces"
http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/8333/scan6co8.th.jpg
"There is a Natural Order to Her being, as to yours and ALL Creation"

In case you were wondering Galactic, you cannot speed blitz a reality warper, he controls time; if it was that easy to kill them Merlin would not have blasted the universe where the first Jaspers existed.

You can say for example that a warper would not be able to harm the speed force since it is a concept. Jaspers can recreate the universe as if the speed force never existed, as he can make gravity disapear. In this case the victim is the Phoenix force.

I can't say anything about your knowledge of the Phoenix force, but you don't seem to know enough of Jaspers to make a valid point.

masters has this on lock

Originally posted by Mr Master
This makes sense.

Which is why Reality Warpers will always be above Matter Manipulators.

Read my response to that post of Endless Mikes. Renders yours unnecessary and far from the case.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Ok please don't start this now,

if you don't know what you're talking about ..... ASK!!




This is NOT True at all.

The Fury survived Universal Nullification without a scratch:


On Panel:

http://img131.imageshack.us/img131/7179/jue6.th.jpg



Bio: "survives Nullification and Jaspers' Warp"

http://img479.imageshack.us/img479/3931/f1ts5.th.jpg

The universe around Fury was blown up. What youre forgetting to acknowledge is that the destruction wasnt focused on him. You seem to be inferring that Fury could survive a universal scale attack directed specifically at him. If thats the case then youre unsupported in that opinion and contradicted on panel:

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/4/11313375549.jpg

If simply being compressed into a ball at one point could have killed the Fury before he adapted to it, then theres a great many attacks the Force would be capable of that Fury has never been shown to be immune to. Theres no reason why atomisation or transmutation wouldnt obliterate the Fury.

Originally posted by Mr Master
It was the TRIP through UniverseS unprotected that damaged him:


"It Arrived an Hour ago"
http://img91.imageshack.us/img91/1738/j1xo0.th.jpg


"It comes from Another Universe ... it's Journey was Not pleasant, it no longer has Limbs"
http://img376.imageshack.us/img376/5505/j2sa4.th.jpg

You have been constantly hyping up the Furys dimension hopping abilities and yet according to you the damage inflicted on Fury, (the damage which left him unable to repair himself without absorbing an old woman for energy) was caused by him travelling from one dimension to another?

Either way this instance illustrates how the Furys durability and abilities are dependent on his very limited energy reserves.

Originally posted by Mr Master
This is also NOT True.

The Fury was weakened after his tramendous battle with Jaspers 616,

(as if that's a low show)

But still managed to zap the cat that axed him in the back,

nearly Killed Captain Britain,

and was finally murdered by a berzerker Captain UK.

Thats cool, you've got me there i didnt remember that scene accurately from my last read, Fury never got killed by an axe to head, but instead got taken outta the game by Captain Uk in crazy b*tch mode who tore it to shreds with her bare hands.

Once the Furys reserves are depleted, its ability to adapt, its high level abilities are made redundant and its about as much of a threat as Johnny 5:

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/4/11313245193.jpg

Originally posted by Mr Master
If you want the Scans,

I'll provide.



Jaspers/Fury wins.

Its cool. I got plenty. Thanks for the offer though.

As for the win the Phoenix Force takes Jaspers/Fury anyday. It can remove the merger from reality through teleportation or remove reality from around it by telekinesis, either option leaves the Jaspers half out of the equation. The Fury is then left to get atomised, transmuted or drained of energy. Either way it dies.

Originally posted by Mr Master
The Phoenix is a primal force of the Universe,

no different than any other Abstract below Eternity/Infinity.



"Phoenix is ONE of the Primal Forces"
http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/8333/scan6co8.th.jpg
"There is a Natural Order to Her being, as to yours and ALL Creation"

Handled with ridiculous ease in this past thread:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/313281_16-parallax-vs-dark-phoenix#post8199040

Originally posted by Bentley
In case you were wondering Galactic, you cannot speed blitz a reality warper, he controls time; if it was that easy to kill them Merlin would not have blasted the universe where the first Jaspers existed.

For Jaspers to be physically anything beyond human level he first needs to apply his mutant power to himself to enhance his attributes (e.g his durability, speed, agility, reaction time) Jaspers can either enhance himself by applying his power directly to himself specifically or he can create a reality warp an area of reality where he determines the physical laws and attributes of all within. To first enhance himself Jaspers must consciously activate his power with his very human reaction time and thought processing. Before he could blink an eye he could be taken out by an enemy with sufficiently enhanced reflexes and speed as long as he hasnt previously applied his power to himself or as long as the fight isnt taking place in an area of reality hes already warped.

Jaspers isnt durable or anything other than human physically as standard. As standard he is human physically. Jaspers' mutant power can only be expressed through the medium of reality, when taken away from reality, he still possesses his powers but he has nothing to express them through (In the same way if Pyro doesnt have access to fire or if Storm doesnt have access to atmosphere they are functionally just human) When Fury took Jaspers outside of reality Jaspers could no longer shapeshift, regenerate or possess enhanced durability, why? Because they are attributes he gives himself via his powers.

Jaspers 238 could only be stopped through the destruction of his universe because the opposing forces realised too late that he was a threat and he obviously would have used his powers to make himself indestructible within his reality before they made their move.

In a forum battle, unless the threadmaker specifies that the battle takes place in one of Jaspers reality warps then anyone with sufficiently enhanced reflexes and speed could take him out before he could render himself beyond any physical assault.

Originally posted by Bentley
You can say for example that a warper would not be able to harm the speed force since it is a concept. Jaspers can recreate the universe as if the speed force never existed, as he can make gravity disapear. In this case the victim is the Phoenix force.

Jaspers warps and reshapes whats already there. He twists reality into his personal vision. He does not create a brand new reality from scratch in a Big Bang fashion. He paints over whats already there and can build and create using whats already there. Jaspers' power is dependent on there being reality. The Phoenix Force is a fundamental force of reality. If it had no involvement in a reality then that reality would cease to exist. Jaspers could not remove the Phoenix from reality as he would cause reality to cease to exist and therefore render himself powerless.


Originally posted by Bentley
I can't say anything about your knowledge of the Phoenix force, but you don't seem to know enough of Jaspers to make a valid point.

I know plenty more than you think Bentley. You however were unaware of the thought processes behind my argument and your own answers suggest you in fact arent as clued up about Jaspers as you would have us believe.

I did not see any point in which you argued against my logic behind nullifying an universe to kill Jaspers.

If sending someone with super speed from the beginning would do the trick, then why nullify the universe? It makes no sense from a logical standpoint, Jaspers cannot be blitzed as he controls time, time is a part of reality. Address that first and I'll rip the rest of your comments to pieces afterwards, I cannot stand responses that are too long.

Originally posted by Bentley
I did not see any point in which you argued against my logic behind nullifying an universe to kill Jaspers.

If sending someone with super speed from the beginning would do the trick, then why nullify the universe? It makes no sense from a logical standpoint, Jaspers cannot be blitzed as he controls time, time is a part of reality. Address that first and I'll rip the rest of your comments to pieces afterwards, I cannot stand responses that are too long.

I've already addressed your comments if you cannot be bothered to read an danalyse what ive written, then thats your problem, my points still stand.

Before Jaspers applys his power to himself he's human in terms of durability and reactions. As illustrated by Jaspers frail human form when he was taken outside of reality by Fury and left unable to express his powers on himself to make him anything other than human physically. Unless a threadmaker states that the match starts off within a Jaspers reality warp, then anyone with sufficient superhuman speed and reflexes could take out Jaspers before his human mind and reactions consciously willhis powers into action.

Saying why didnt Merlyn or the opposing forces kill Jaspers before he used his powers is like saying why didnt anyone stop Jean from going on the space shuttle to become Phoenix which would have prevented the destruction she performed as Dark Phoenix. Its like saying why didnt anyone capture and restrain Thanos before he recovered the Infinity Gauntlet. Because such PIS makes for good stories. If characters in comics were always so pre-emptive then comics would be a very boring read Bentley.

Either way, its canon that Jaspers is physically human before he applys his powers to himself. The point was illustrated by the Fury quite conveniently for my argument, therefore my point still stands.

Read my original post and comprehend it before replying. That will help things run alot smoother.

Thanks for your time.

Originally posted by Bentley
I did not see any point in which you argued against my logic behind nullifying an universe to kill Jaspers.

If sending someone with super speed from the beginning would do the trick, then why nullify the universe? It makes no sense from a logical standpoint, Jaspers cannot be blitzed as he controls time, time is a part of reality. Address that first and I'll rip the rest of your comments to pieces afterwards, I cannot stand responses that are too long.
im not sure if time and reality are one in the same in marvel.
sort of confusing seeing as there are seprate time and reality gems.

Even there, lets say Jaspers needs to reality warp not to be a fragile human. Lets say he does indeed applies reality warping to himself, then why didn't Merlin threw at him something that could kill him in that improved version? Are we to assume that Jaspers becomes inmune to nullification only AFTER the first use of his powers?

Questioning further: If Jaspers can in fact warp himself to be invincible as to be impossible to nullify, are we to assume that he had previous knowledge of this posiblity and thus he was able to improve himself? Or is it that 616's Jaspers inmediately added that clause to himself to protect himself from any outside power in the universe?

When does Jaspers become inmune to nullification in canon?

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
You have been constantly hyping up the Furys dimension hopping abilities and yet according to you the damage inflicted on Fury, (the damage which left him unable to repair himself without absorbing an old woman for energy) was caused by him travelling from one dimension to another?

Either way this instance illustrates how the Furys durability and abilities are dependent on his very limited energy reserves.

The Fury's supreme teleportational capabilities increased dramatically towards the end of the saga.

And it wasn't from one Universe to another, it was across UniverseS.




Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Either way this instance illustrates how the Furys durability and abilities are dependent on his very limited energy reserves.

Negative,

it only proves how tough the Fury is.

And again,

this is BEFORE the Fury developed further.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Handled with ridiculous ease in this past thread:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/313281_16-parallax-vs-dark-phoenix#post8199040

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
For Jaspers to be physically anything beyond human level he first needs to apply his mutant power to himself to enhance his attributes (e.g his durability, speed, agility, reaction time) Jaspers can either enhance himself by applying his power directly to himself specifically or he can create a reality warp an area of reality where he determines the physical laws and attributes of all within. To first enhance himself Jaspers must consciously activate his power with his very human reaction time and thought processing. Before he could blink an eye he could be taken out by an enemy with sufficiently enhanced reflexes and speed as long as he hasnt previously applied his power to himself or as long as the fight isnt taking place in an area of reality hes already warped.

Jaspers isnt durable or anything other than human physically as standard. As standard he is human physically. Jaspers' mutant power can only be expressed through the medium of reality, when taken away from reality, he still possesses his powers but he has nothing to express them through (In the same way if Pyro doesnt have access to fire or if Storm doesnt have access to atmosphere they are functionally just human) When Fury took Jaspers outside of reality Jaspers could no longer shapeshift, regenerate or possess enhanced durability, why? Because they are attributes he gives himself via his powers.

Jaspers 238 could only be stopped through the destruction of his universe because the opposing forces realised too late that he was a threat and he obviously would have used his powers to make himself indestructible within his reality before they made their move.

In a forum battle, unless the threadmaker specifies that the battle takes place in one of Jaspers reality warps then anyone with sufficiently enhanced reflexes and speed could take him out before he could render himself beyond any physical assault.

Jaspers warps and reshapes whats already there. He twists reality into his personal vision. He does not create a brand new reality from scratch in a Big Bang fashion. He paints over whats already there and can build and create using whats already there. Jaspers' power is dependent on there being reality. The Phoenix Force is a fundamental force of reality. If it had no involvement in a reality then that reality would cease to exist. Jaspers could not remove the Phoenix from reality as he would cause reality to cease to exist and therefore render himself powerless.

I know plenty more than you think Bentley. You however were unaware of the thought processes behind my argument and your own answers suggest you in fact arent as clued up about Jaspers as you would have us believe.

I disagree with everthing here.

I addressed it before,

and I'm not interested in getting the last word in.

Jaspers/Fury takes out Phoenix in a curbstomp.

Phoenix has absolutely NO chance of getting one win against Jaspers.

Beyonder beats Jaspers.

This is a game! woot

GS, do you have any proof that Jasper's powers are ever dormant other than when he's removed from reality?

Originally posted by illadelph12
GS, do you have any proof that Jasper's powers are ever dormant other than when he's removed from reality?

The bio states that to use his powers on himself he must have reality to work with. His powers are initiated through thought.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
The bio states that to use his powers on himself he must have reality to work with. His powers are initiated through thought.

You didn't answer my question brotha.

Do you have any proof, on panel, that Jasper's powers are ever dormant other than when he was removed from reality?

We both know the answer, I just want to read you posting it and then I'll resume being an impartial observer.

Oh, and for the record, I said Phoenix Vs. MJJ/Fury is a draw.

Originally posted by illadelph12
You didn't answer my question brotha.

Do you have any proof, on panel, that Jasper's powers are ever dormant other than when he was removed from reality?

We both know the answer, I just want to read you posting it and then I'll resume being an impartial observer.

Do you have any proof that Jaspers powers are always on? Are you suggesting that his powers arent thought triggered? Because there are instances on panel which state reality is manipulated with his mind. An official bio states that to use his powers on himself he needs reality to work with therefore telling you that changing his physical attributes is something he brings about consciously through reality.

Originally posted by illadelph12
Oh, and for the record, I said Phoenix Vs. MJJ/Fury is a draw.

The aim of the game is to kill. We're not dealing with a human host here, we're talking about the Force. Jaspers/Fury cannot kill the Force, by canon it cannot be killed, The Force can kill Jaspers/Fury. The Force wins.

Don't draw me into this GS...

On panel Jaspers was shot point blank in the face by Fury and rendered a fleshless skeleton and there was no evidence on panel that before Fury shot MJJ he had used his powers on his own body, and after being shot there was no brain left for Jaspers to use his powers on his destroyed body and restore himself. How can he use his powers without a brain if he needs to think in order to use his powers?

We both know the answer to this query as well, and no, before you submit it, it's not because he'd already warped reality. He'd warped reality external of himself. There was no on panel evidence that he'd consciously sustained manipulation of his own being prior to the attack by Fury, and, using your logic (that he requires thought to alter anything and is dormant until doing so), he no longer had a brain or flesh, so his powers shouldn't have worked and he should have been dead.

What happened after he was shot?

Eh, it's not worth it.

I'm not in this debate.

Originally posted by illadelph12


Don't draw me into this GS...

On panel Jaspers was shot point blank in the face by Fury and rendered a fleshless skeleton and there was no evidence on panel that before Fury shot MJJ he had used his powers on his own body, and after being shot there was no brain left for Jaspers to use his powers on his destroyed body and restore himself. How can he use his powers without a brain if he needs to think in order to use his powers?

We both know the answer to this query as well, and no, before you submit it, it's not because he'd already warped reality. He'd warped reality external of himself. There was no on panel evidence that he'd consciously sustained manipulation of his own being prior to the attack by Fury, and, using your logic (that he requires thought to alter anything and is dormant until doing so), he no longer had a brain or flesh, so his powers shouldn't have worked and he should have been dead.

What happened after he was shot?

Eh, it's not worth it.

I'm not in this debate.

Quite an easy query to answer. That occurred in Mighty World 11 within Jaspers reality warp where he had already stated he had created "everything" and where his reality warp had already been shown in the previous two issues to have spread across the country and as summarized on marvunapp.com's issue by issue summary.

Within his reality warp, what Jaspers says goes. For all we know within his warp he could have determined that he cant be harmed, that he didnt have to have a physical body within his reality, its all possible. Either way before Fury attacked Jaspers had already applied his powers to himself because he had previously in issue 10 (which the issue in question followed directly on from) been morphing himself into various shapes before being attacked by Captain Britain and proved impervious to his assaults.

Jaspers power is psionically activated, as supported by the bios reference to how to exact changes on himself he needs to have reality present for him to work with, plus theres the fact that Opal Luna Saturnyne the omniversal majestrix classified him as a psychokinetic i.e he warps reality psionically:

http://img57.imageshack.us/img57/848/hrdd0707nd7.gif

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
I've have that book. No where does it ever mention avatar. Thought you came back with new stuff but it's still the same old tactics. Poor and unreadable scans when you drivel your opinions.



That specific issue doesnt have to say its an avatar, if its established in previous issues that the firebird is a representation of the life force of reality. I have posted many issues of the firebird being called an avatar so i have nothing to prove.

If the Phoenix Force is stated to be the life force of reality, the sum and substance of all life, then how can that firebird be the sum of the Phoenix Force? Surely that would mean there would be no life anywhere else on panel because that firebird would be the sum of it.

Or sensible and clued up readers would know that as stated on panel many a time the firebird is an avatar. It being an avatar is also stated in the bio. As is the point that the bird is just a manifestation of the life force, not the sum total.

A droplet of water from a glass of the stuff is still called water. On top of that, it being called water doesnt mean its the totality of it. The Phoenix Force has been split into many parts on panel before and each one of them still called the Phoenix Force.

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
Your contradicting yourself. You posted scans of the Force from a story where it was drained and abused. If an alien ship and a team of B-class heroes can put a hurting on Phoenix Force, Fury and Jasper would stomp it six feet under.



Contradicted myself how? Ive posted scans alongside those Ultraforce ones stating that the firebird is an avatar, on top of that i posted scans stating that the avatar in Ultraforce was operating at a reduced power level as it wasnt operating within the universe it derives from. It is after all a manifestation of 616's life force. Look back and see before replying.

The full Force as this thread is dealing with will be capable of everything the manifestation is and far more. What i berated other posters for doing was switching it around and trying to use this avatar as representative of the full power Phoenix. Doesnt work the other way around im afraid.

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
Its just a bio. The books prove it can be hurt and killed, even if temporarily.

Fury and Jasper win 8/10.

The bio supports on panel showings. On panel Phoenix avatars have been shattered, absorbed and then rechannelled only for the firebird to come out the other end like nothing had happened. Yes avatars have been hurt, so what?The Force has never on panel been killed however and yet there are on panel instances showing its essence is completely indestructible, therefore my point stands.

Jaspers /Fury can be killed, the Phoenix Force by canon as stated and shown on panel and within bios is immortal and indestructible.

Thats about it for today. Nite nite guys early start.

Well, I'll be the first one tackling your misguided posts today. I noticed that your whole argument depends in the fact that Jaspers needs to think to warp reality. The problem is that you had not proved it. You said that the bio states that Jaspers need reality to manipulate or he is a single human, we already know this, thats why his weakness is a void space. Also, Jaspers being an omega mutant means he can trascend reality, so his "mind" can be used outside his body.

Also, I don't believe the Phoenix Force to be literally indestructible, omniversal nullification would wipe it out just fine. The statement that this is for the kill is not true either. If Jaspers transform the Force into a harmless version of itself he wins, because that would be a perpetual ko.

Addressing more of your weird senses energy can be destroyed (in comics) and the PF have never showed the power to destroy reality, only matter.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Quite an easy query to answer. That occurred in Mighty World 11 within Jaspers reality warp where he had already stated he had created "everything" and where his reality warp had already been shown in the previous two issues to have spread across the country and as summarized on marvunapp.com's issue by issue summary.

Within his reality warp, what Jaspers says goes. For all we know within his warp he could have determined that he cant be harmed, that he didnt have to have a physical body within his reality, its all possible. Either way before Fury attacked Jaspers had already applied his powers to himself because he had previously in issue 10 (which the issue in question followed directly on from) been morphing himself into various shapes before being attacked by Captain Britain and proved impervious to his assaults.

whitenuts

Originally posted by Bentley
Well, I'll be the first one tackling your misguided posts today. I noticed that your whole argument depends in the fact that Jaspers needs to think to warp reality. The problem is that you had not proved it. You said that the bio states that Jaspers need reality to manipulate or he is a single human, we already know this, thats why his weakness is a void space. Also, Jaspers being an omega mutant means he can trascend reality, so his "mind" can be used outside his body.

Misguided? How so? You've brought nothing to the table but an opposing OPINION, none of which you've backed up through on panel proof.

Just how do you think these Jaspers connected changes occur to reality? At random? That conveniently these random changes are just what he needs and wants in any given situation?

Of course it requires conscious thought.

At the start of the match prior to him initiating his powers he is still physically very human and that is his downfall. He's just not durable or cant react or process thoughts in his head fast enough to avoid death at the hands of anyone with superhuman speed and reactions. Its that first activation of his powers thats a crucial moment, because after that, he can make himself virtually indestructible amongst other things. Get in there prior to that and hes easy pickings.

You say i havent proved Jaspers needs to think to warp reality, you're wrong and in light of the scans i've posted, either blind or a very selective reader.

There are bio scans saying that Jaspers works with reality to inflict changes on himself (that in itself tells you it involves conscious thought)

I have posted scans of Jaspers being said to manipulate reality PSYCHOKINETICALLY. That alone brings the argument to a close. Post scans and bios stating the contrary or say nothing, because without on panel proof your opinion alone doesnt cut it.

Originally posted by Bentley
Also, I don't believe the Phoenix Force to be literally indestructible, omniversal nullification would wipe it out just fine. The statement that this is for the kill is not true either. If Jaspers transform the Force into a harmless version of itself he wins, because that would be a perpetual ko.

Whether you believe it or not is of little concern to me. The point has been stated on panel many times, the point has been demonstrated on panel, with the Phoenix avatar splitting itself into multiple fully functioning forms many times, being shattered, absorbed and used only for it to carry on as if nothing happened. To top it off the point is stated on panel. After all of that im really supposed to care or be troubled by the fact that its your OPINION that all of that is wrong?

You're a funny guy.

Originally posted by Bentley
Addressing more of your weird senses energy can be destroyed (in comics) and the PF have never showed the power to destroy reality, only matter.

Show the Phoenix energy being destroyed, show the Phoenix energy being permanently eradicated or give it up. Im supported on panel by statements and scenes actually proving my point specifically and also by bios stating the point.

Not good enough.

Originally posted by Mr Master
whitenuts

Hiya!

Heres Captain Britain once again showing concern not for the universe (which some sources would have you believe was remade) but instead just for his planet:

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/4/11511033063.jpg

Quite puzzling given his hero role. Surely if it was in fact the universe as a whole that was remade then he'd show concern for just a little more than Betsy and Earth?

and heres Roma telling him how his WORLD is bruised, with no mention of the universe sharing the same fate at all, but that reality fixes paradoxes so his WORLD will heal:

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/4/11511033111.jpg

What about the rest of the universe that was apparently warped?

I wonder why in earlier issues Cap would berate Jaspers for warping just his country, the handbook and marvunapp would say Jaspers warp spread across the planet and above Cap Britain and Roma the omniversal guardian would only refer to the global when supposedly the warp and therefore the damage occurred across all of 616? Hmmmmm

Jim Japsers Remade the 616 Universe, end of story.

http://img349.imageshack.us/img349/7223/m18gy5.th.jpg



"I made everything actually, I made the sky, I made the Tiger the Lamb"
http://img65.imageshack.us/img65/1554/jsd5.th.jpg
"I made the Stars"





Here's the Proof


In Captain Britain's series that came AFTER Jaspers was killed by the Fury,

it's clarified for those that tried to demean Jaspers' Feat.





"Although Captain UK and I defeated the Fury & contained the Jaspers' Warp,

the Continuum was sufficiently damaged"
http://img406.imageshack.us/img406/9643/linda3zb4.th.jpg






Here the Bio and On Panel accounts are identical:

Bio

"Roma informed Linda her anomalous presence on 616,

was preventing the Damaged Reality (Universe) from fully Healing"
http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/7398/lindach8.th.jpg
(excerpt from the Official Marvel Handbook 2006 Captain UK Bio)





On Panel verification


"Your presence is an anomaly,

that has prevented this Continuum (616 Universe) from Healing"
http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/920/linda4px8.th.jpg







I did find more evidence to further prove, Jaspers was the 616 Universe.


http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/madjimj2.htm

GO down to 'The Mighty World of Marvel #9'

(on the right hand side of the poker dot Jaspers with a Cane)


Captain Britain knew the UK was Warped and "presumed" the World too,

http://img161.imageshack.us/img161/4974/66962910sl3.th.jpg

http://img161.imageshack.us/img161/64/84746326by8.th.jpg

but to his surprise,


"Captain Britain entered Jaspers' Office to find Jaspers,

a Giant at ONE with the Universe"

http://img349.imageshack.us/img349/7223/m18gy5.th.jpg





This, coupled with the rest of the evidence,

shuts down the opposition ... swank

The Official Jaspers 616 Bio also states that both Jaspers could Warp atleast a Universe.

Why would and How could the bio say this if he never did it?



(exceprt form the Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe 2006)
http://img162.imageshack.us/img162/8128/j2ql0.th.jpg

"BOTH Jaspers could effortlessly Warp Reality on a Dimension-Wide Scale"

The exact same post i dealt with here:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/449137_5-phoenix-force-vs-mad-jim-jaspers-fury-vs-pretcon-beyonder

Back to your old tricks eh?

Please address my points, by providing new evidence and official sources that state point blank the point you're trying to make, otherwise you're just continually posting a whole lot of nothing.

Not arguing that Jaspers couldnt warp reality on a universal scale, that was the opinion of a few characters on panel and i have no issue with that right now. What i do have an issue with is you saying that thats exactly what he did do, when that was never ever actually shown or stated to be the case on panel.

Highly regarded website(marvunapp) + official bio + various on panel global references + a total lack of universal warping references or depictions > a whole lot of nothing.

No more reposts please

Lets break the cycle

Thats enough for today. Gotta remember im 5 hours ahead of you guys. Early start.

No more reposts!

Let the thread progress by actually countering points.

Nite nite!!

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
The exact same post i dealt with here:

Back to your old tricks eh?

Please address my points, by providing new evidence and official sources that state point blank the point you're trying to make, otherwise you're just continually posting a whole lot of nothing.

Not arguing that Jaspers couldnt warp reality on a universal scale, that was the opinion of a few characters on panel and i have no issue with that right now. What i do have an issue with is you saying that thats exactly what he did do, when that was never ever actually shown or stated to be the case on panel.

Highly regarded website(marvunapp) + official bio + various on panel global references + a total lack of universal warping references or depictions > a whole lot of nothing.

"dealt with"

"old tricks"


I knew it wouldn't be long before the god complex got the best of you.

You continue to post the same shit duke,


At this point it's just blahblah


Originally posted by GalacticStorm
No more reposts please

No more gibberish please.


Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Lets break the cycle

Demean every Other character's Feat to boost the Phoenix?

I agree.

Originally posted by Bentley
Well, I'll be the first one tackling your misguided posts today. I noticed that your whole argument depends in the fact that Jaspers needs to think to warp reality. The problem is that you had not proved it. You said that the bio states that Jaspers need reality to manipulate or he is a single human, we already know this, thats why his weakness is a void space. Also, Jaspers being an omega mutant means he can trascend reality, so his "mind" can be used outside his body.

Also, I don't believe the Phoenix Force to be literally indestructible, omniversal nullification would wipe it out just fine. The statement that this is for the kill is not true either. If Jaspers transform the Force into a harmless version of itself he wins, because that would be a perpetual ko.

Addressing more of your weird senses energy can be destroyed (in comics) and the PF have never showed the power to destroy reality, only matter.

When was Mad jim jaspers called an omega mutant on panel?
maybe i missed somthing, this is not the wiki version is it?

Sir James Jaspers is without a doubt one of the most powerful mutants to ever live in any reality and one of the most likely (though officially unconfirmed) candidates for being an omega-level mutant.

I could be wrong ,but where is it stated on panel?

edit

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
No more reposts!

Let the thread progress by actually countering points.

Jim Japsers Remade the 616 Universe, end of story.

http://img349.imageshack.us/img349/7223/m18gy5.th.jpg



"I made everything actually, I made the sky, I made the Tiger the Lamb"
http://img65.imageshack.us/img65/1554/jsd5.th.jpg
"I made the Stars"





Here's the Proof


In Captain Britain's series that came AFTER Jaspers was killed by the Fury,

it's clarified for those that tried to demean Jaspers' Feat.





"Although Captain UK and I defeated the Fury & contained the Jaspers' Warp,

the Continuum was sufficiently damaged"
http://img406.imageshack.us/img406/9643/linda3zb4.th.jpg






Here the Bio and On Panel accounts are identical:

Bio

"Roma informed Linda her anomalous presence on 616,

was preventing the Damaged Reality (Universe) from fully Healing"
http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/7398/lindach8.th.jpg
(excerpt from the Official Marvel Handbook 2006 Captain UK Bio)





On Panel verification


"Your presence is an anomaly,

that has prevented this Continuum (616 Universe) from Healing"
http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/920/linda4px8.th.jpg







I did find more evidence to further prove, Jaspers was the 616 Universe.


http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/madjimj2.htm

GO down to 'The Mighty World of Marvel #9'

(on the right hand side of the poker dot Jaspers with a Cane)


Captain Britain knew the UK was Warped and "presumed" the World too,

http://img161.imageshack.us/img161/4974/66962910sl3.th.jpg

http://img161.imageshack.us/img161/64/84746326by8.th.jpg

but to his surprise,


"Captain Britain entered Jaspers' Office to find Jaspers,

a Giant at ONE with the Universe"

http://img349.imageshack.us/img349/7223/m18gy5.th.jpg





This, coupled with the rest of the evidence,

shuts down the opposition ... swank

The Official Jaspers 616 Bio also states that both Jaspers could Warp atleast a Universe.

Why would and How could the bio say this if he never did it?



(exceprt form the Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe 2006)
http://img162.imageshack.us/img162/8128/j2ql0.th.jpg

"BOTH Jaspers could effortlessly Warp Reality on a Dimension-Wide Scale"

Xorn, KILLING Jean Grey the (White Phoenix of the Crown) with an Electro Magnetic Pulse,

and exploding the PHOENIX FORCE into a Billion pieces:

http://img247.imageshack.us/img247/7711/phpd1.th.jpg


On Panel verification:

http://img300.imageshack.us/img300/3669/1vd7.th.jpg

http://img293.imageshack.us/img293/5718/2eb7.th.jpg






The FURY blasted Jaspers down to the skeletal form:

http://img119.imageshack.us/img119/8508/j1lo2.th.jpg



Jim Remakes himself in an instant:

http://img45.imageshack.us/img45/8223/j2ea0.th.jpg

Originally posted by Mr Master
The Official Jaspers 616 Bio also states that both Jaspers could Warp atleast a Universe.

Why would and How could the bio say this if he never did it?



(exceprt form the Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe 2006)
http://img162.imageshack.us/img162/8128/j2ql0.th.jpg

"BOTH Jaspers could effortlessly Warp Reality on a Dimension-Wide Scale"

Dimensions exist within universes in Marvel.

Bio and On Panel accounts depicting the Phoenix Force (Host-less)

getting OWNED




1.

Bio


"The FORCE was Transported to the Ultraverse by a Sentient Alien Starship"

http://img164.imageshack.us/img164/6177/p1uc0.th.jpg




On Panel verification


The SHIP,

rips a HOLE in Space & Time in front of the PHOENIX FORCE in it's own Dimension,

http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/6522/p1rc5.th.jpg

"Out of one marvelous Universe and into another"

http://img174.imageshack.us/img174/6805/p2ek6.th.jpg




continues in the next post ...

2.

Bio


"it intended to use the FORCE'S Energy to power the recombination ...

IMPALED on a Lance of Energy ...

WOUNDED the Force sought out a host to Protect it as it HEALED"

http://img83.imageshack.us/img83/8973/p2us8.th.jpg




On Panel verification


"Impaled, Spitted, the PHOENIX writhes as it's LIFE is SUCKED OUT"

http://img378.imageshack.us/img378/57/p3xa6.th.jpg
"It has never known PAIN of this magnitude, it SCREAMS"





"It's willfully TORTURING the PHOENIX" ..... am I imagining things, or is it's FIRE GOING OUT,

the COLORS are FADING, like it's DYING"

http://img174.imageshack.us/img174/2048/p4ah2.th.jpg
"TRULY,

the PHOENIX is BATTLING for IT'S LIFE against the sear of Light that is STRIPPING it's POWER AWAY"




http://img366.imageshack.us/img366/2513/p5mr2.th.jpg

"WOUNDED the PHOENIX FALLS,

to SURVIVE, to MEND, to HEAL,

it MUST find a Host"




continues in the next post ....

3.

Bio


"the FORCE attacked the ship, threatening the stability of the planet ...

the Heroes were ABLE to DRIVE the FORCE into another Portal ...

and it Emerged Four Billion Years in the Past"

http://img164.imageshack.us/img164/8164/p3jr9.th.jpg




On Panel verification


A Few members of the X-Men and Ultra Force (SIX in ALL)

are sent to battle the ACTUAL PHOENIX FORCE (WITHOUT a Host)

http://img295.imageshack.us/img295/3901/6rh9.th.jpg





"The assembled Heroes are TIRED & BATTERED,

the PHOENIX is REBORN and FRESH"

http://img161.imageshack.us/img161/9686/f12xp8.th.jpg

AND they're STILL holding their own





The Six heroes BEAT (PHYSICALLY) the PHOENIX FORCE into and through the Portal

http://img431.imageshack.us/img431/2667/f14nz2.th.jpg





The PHOENIX FORCE ends up DISPLACED by FOUR Billion Years

http://img169.imageshack.us/img169/5469/f15eg2.th.jpg

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Dimensions exist within universes in Marvel.

Pocket Dimensions?

Yes.

Dimensions?

No.


Dimensions are Universes in the Multiverse in Marvel:

http://img104.imageshack.us/img104/3236/multi1ec7.th.jpg

"Yet it is of such Concepts that the MULTIVERSE is made,

for the MULTIVERSE is a Transfinite number,

that is a Number Greater than Infinity of Universes,"

These Universes are often popularly called,

DIMENSIONS."

NuclearWinter is that you?

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
That specific issue doesnt have to say its an avatar, if its established in previous issues that the firebird is a representation of the life force of reality. I have posted many issues of the firebird being called an avatar so i have nothing to prove.

If the Phoenix Force is stated to be the life force of reality, the sum and substance of all life, then how can that firebird be the sum of the Phoenix Force? Surely that would mean there would be no life anywhere else on panel because that firebird would be the sum of it.

Or sensible and clued up readers would know that as stated on panel many a time the firebird is an avatar. It being an avatar is also stated in the bio. As is the point that the bird is just a manifestation of the life force, not the sum total.

A droplet of water from a glass of the stuff is still called water. On top of that, it being called water doesnt mean its the totality of it. The Phoenix Force has been split into many parts on panel before and each one of them still called the Phoenix Force.


Contradicted myself how? Ive posted scans alongside those Ultraforce ones stating that the firebird is an avatar, on top of that i posted scans stating that the avatar in Ultraforce was operating at a reduced power level as it wasnt operating within the universe it derives from. It is after all a manifestation of 616's life force. Look back and see before replying.

Then bring those scans. READABLE ones, none of those poor azz quality scans you post when you ramble.





As canon? As canon it was killed twice. Then there's the other time when Galactus nearly killed it but spared do to Roma, Death, and Watcher's plead. That's the canon Phoenix Force: vulnerable, killable, and owned. Nice try, even the bio confirms that it's been beaten.



Wait, this Force can't act/manifest fully but not lets suppose it can. And from that we're suppose to believe this sum of all life is going to take out multiversal beings? Beyonder would curbstomp it and erase it from existence; death and Marvel's top beings couldn't do a thing to stop him, the sum of life force isn't either. Fury and Jasper don't win this, Beyonder does. But between Jasper/fury and Phoenix, MJJ and Fury take this. And entire universe's life force blew up and fury had scraps.

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
As canon? As canon it was killed twice.

Then there's the other time when Galactus nearly killed it

but spared do to Roma, Death, and Watcher's plead.

That's the canon Phoenix Force: vulnerable, killable, and owned.


Nice try, even the bio confirms that it's been beaten.

It's been a while since you owned our friend.


Nice work.

Originally posted by Mr Master
It's been a while since you owned our friend.


Nice work.

Thanks. And nice scans MM, backs up your argument nicely.

Originally posted by Mr Master
The FURY blasted Jaspers down to the skeletal form:

http://img119.imageshack.us/img119/8508/j1lo2.th.jpg



Jim Remakes himself in an instant:

http://img45.imageshack.us/img45/8223/j2ea0.th.jpg




This query was (surprise surprise!!!) handled on page 6 of this thread:

Heres a choice quote from the lovely Galactic Storm

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Quite an easy query to answer. That occurred in Mighty World 11 within Jaspers reality warp where he had already stated he had created "everything" and where his reality warp had already been shown in the previous two issues to have spread across the country and as summarized on marvunapp.com's issue by issue summary.

Within his reality warp, what Jaspers says goes. For all we know within his warp he could have determined that he cant be harmed, that he didnt have to have a physical body within his reality, its all possible. Either way before Fury attacked Jaspers had already applied his powers to himself because he had previously in issue 10 (which the issue in question followed directly on from) been morphing himself into various shapes before being attacked by Captain Britain and proved impervious to his assaults.

Jaspers power is psionically activated, as supported by the bios reference to how to exact changes on himself he needs to have reality present for him to work with, plus theres the fact that Opal Luna Saturnyne the omniversal majestrix classified him as a psychokinetic i.e he warps reality psionically:

http://img57.imageshack.us/img57/848/hrdd0707nd7.gif

So once again we see a query of Mr Masters answered quite conclusively, we see no counter from him whatsoever and yet a repost of the same tired information. Sorry to tell ya mate but I think you missed a step.

Originally posted by Mr Master
3.

Bio


"the FORCE attacked the ship, threatening the stability of the planet ...

the Heroes were ABLE to DRIVE the FORCE into another Portal ...

and it Emerged Four Billion Years in the Past"

http://img164.imageshack.us/img164/8164/p3jr9.th.jpg




On Panel verification


A Few members of the X-Men and Ultra Force (SIX in ALL)

are sent to battle the ACTUAL PHOENIX FORCE (WITHOUT a Host)

http://img295.imageshack.us/img295/3901/6rh9.th.jpg





"The assembled Heroes are TIRED & BATTERED,

the PHOENIX is REBORN and FRESH"

http://img161.imageshack.us/img161/9686/f12xp8.th.jpg

AND they're STILL holding their own





The Six heroes BEAT (PHYSICALLY) the PHOENIX FORCE into and through the Portal

http://img431.imageshack.us/img431/2667/f14nz2.th.jpg





The PHOENIX FORCE ends up DISPLACED by FOUR Billion Years

http://img169.imageshack.us/img169/5469/f15eg2.th.jpg

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
As canon? As canon it was killed twice. Then there's the other time when Galactus nearly killed it but spared do to Roma, Death, and Watcher's plead. That's the canon Phoenix Force: vulnerable, killable, and owned. Nice try, even the bio confirms that it's been beaten.

By canon the Phoenix Force has never ever been killed. An avatar has had their physicality destroyed, but so what? Means nothing to the Force. By canon as stated, demonstrated and depicted on panel the Force itself, the mutable, indestructible and immortal life force that it is has never ever been destroyed.

Your mentor attempted to build a case for the Force nearly being destroyed in that Excalibur issue as well despite that point neither being stated or demonstrated on panel. As you can see from actually reading both the thread and the relevant comic (as well as actually taking heed of canon for once), not only was he contradicted on panel, but what he threw my way as evidence when properly read only served to strengthen my case:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/313281_16-parallax-vs-dark-phoenix#post8199040

In other words he failed.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Heres a choice quote from the lovely Galactic Storm




Originally posted by GalacticStorm
So once again we see a query of Mr Masters answered quite conclusively,

we see no counter from him whatsoever and yet a repost of the same tired information.

I countered all your points my boy, ALL.

You just keep coming back like an abused lawyer trying to explain yourself around the facts.

That's what's really tiresome.


You think you're the man cuase you post oversized scans that are irrelevant to the debate,

it's an old ploy that used to work, but KMC has adapted and learned.


So call yourself the "lovely galactic storm" all you want.

Tell us all that everyone's point has been dismissed by your greatness,

our interpretation backed up by Scans and Bios that corresponds with the event,

is moot, all that matters is that Phoenix rules all.



Yes, Phoenix rules,

But Phoenix has NEVER Created a Universe.

So what, Phoenix rules.

But Phoenix has NEVER Remade a Universe.

So what, Phoenix rules.

But Phoenix has NEVER Destroyed the 616 Universe.

So what, Phoenix rules.

But Phoenix has NEVER defeated Eternity.

So what, Phoenix rules.

But Phoenix in it's MOST purest Form, (a Hostless Avatar)

was OWNED by 6 Heroes and nearly KILLED by an Alien Ship.

So what, Phoenix rules.



Is this some kind of joke?

Phoenix Rules:

dontgetit


Originally posted by Mr Master
2.

Bio


"it intended to use the FORCE'S Energy to power the recombination ...

IMPALED on a Lance of Energy ...

WOUNDED the Force sought out a host to Protect it as it HEALED"

http://img83.imageshack.us/img83/8973/p2us8.th.jpg




On Panel verification


"Impaled, Spitted, the PHOENIX writhes as it's LIFE is SUCKED OUT"

http://img378.imageshack.us/img378/57/p3xa6.th.jpg
"It has never known PAIN of this magnitude, it SCREAMS"





"It's willfully TORTURING the PHOENIX" ..... am I imagining things, or is it's FIRE GOING OUT,

the COLORS are FADING, like it's DYING"

http://img174.imageshack.us/img174/2048/p4ah2.th.jpg
"TRULY,

the PHOENIX is BATTLING for IT'S LIFE against the sear of Light that is STRIPPING it's POWER AWAY"




http://img366.imageshack.us/img366/2513/p5mr2.th.jpg

"WOUNDED the PHOENIX FALLS,

to SURVIVE, to MEND, to HEAL,

it MUST find a Host"




continues in the next post ....

Phoenix rules:




Originally posted by Mr Master
2.

Bio


"it intended to use the FORCE'S Energy to power the recombination ...

IMPALED on a Lance of Energy ...

WOUNDED the Force sought out a host to Protect it as it HEALED"

http://img83.imageshack.us/img83/8973/p2us8.th.jpg




On Panel verification


"Impaled, Spitted, the PHOENIX writhes as it's LIFE is SUCKED OUT"

http://img378.imageshack.us/img378/57/p3xa6.th.jpg
"It has never known PAIN of this magnitude, it SCREAMS"





"It's willfully TORTURING the PHOENIX" ..... am I imagining things, or is it's FIRE GOING OUT,

the COLORS are FADING, like it's DYING"

http://img174.imageshack.us/img174/2048/p4ah2.th.jpg
"TRULY,

the PHOENIX is BATTLING for IT'S LIFE against the sear of Light that is STRIPPING it's POWER AWAY"




http://img366.imageshack.us/img366/2513/p5mr2.th.jpg

"WOUNDED the PHOENIX FALLS,

to SURVIVE, to MEND, to HEAL,

it MUST find a Host"




continues in the next post ....

Phoenix Rules:



Originally posted by Mr Master
3.

Bio


"the FORCE attacked the ship, threatening the stability of the planet ...

the Heroes were ABLE to DRIVE the FORCE into another Portal ...

and it Emerged Four Billion Years in the Past"

http://img164.imageshack.us/img164/8164/p3jr9.th.jpg




On Panel verification


A Few members of the X-Men and Ultra Force (SIX in ALL)

are sent to battle the ACTUAL PHOENIX FORCE (WITHOUT a Host)

http://img295.imageshack.us/img295/3901/6rh9.th.jpg





"The assembled Heroes are TIRED & BATTERED,

the PHOENIX is REBORN and FRESH"

http://img161.imageshack.us/img161/9686/f12xp8.th.jpg

AND they're STILL holding their own





The Six heroes BEAT (PHYSICALLY) the PHOENIX FORCE into and through the Portal

http://img431.imageshack.us/img431/2667/f14nz2.th.jpg





The PHOENIX FORCE ends up DISPLACED by FOUR Billion Years

http://img169.imageshack.us/img169/5469/f15eg2.th.jpg


Don't worry yall,

none of this is happening,

it's all in Our and Marvel's imagination according to galactis storm.


But the Bio states exactly what's taking place On Panel.

So what ... Phoenix rules.


In other words ... nuts4

Originally posted by illadelph12
So then what do you consider my opinion, because I see it as a draw between Jaspers/Fury and Pheonix.

Fury's adaptations takes care of the unspace weakness of Jaspers and Jaspers supplements Fury's need to reconstitute itself since Jaspers is self sustained and omnipotent within reality.

The Phoenix Force is the immortal substance of reality.

Jaspers plays with reality's substance like it was Play Doh.

He likely can't destroy the Force, but he can make it do whatever he wants for as long as he wants. I see a perpetual tea bagging loop for Jean.

Originally posted by illadelph12
Ouch.

So then what do you consider my opinion, because I see it as a draw between Jaspers/Fury and Pheonix.

Fury's adaptations takes care of the unspace weakness of Jaspers and Jaspers supplements Fury's need to reconstitute itself since Jaspers is self sustained and omnipotent within reality.

Omnipotent? How so? Hes never done anything to demonstrate or prove omnipotence within his reality warp. The Fury incident and his inability to overcome a energy restrained, shapeshifting adaptoid far from suggests omnipotence. Yeah sure he can expand a warp dimension wide and toy with reality, however ive seen nothing from him to tell me that he would be able to do anything but give himself a major advantage against most enemies as opposed to being omnipotent. Who is to say the Phoenix doesnt wield more control over its essence than Jaspers? That would certainly seem the obvious conclusion.

Furys adaptations mean that when Phoenix has atomized reality, leaving them in a void, Jaspers can flee to another dimension instead of getting exterminated. If Phoenix was to get the combo in a void then with the Jaspers part out of the picture, its a simple matter to destroy the bog standard Fury.

Originally posted by illadelph12
The Phoenix Force is the immortal substance of reality.

Jaspers plays with reality's substance like it was Play Doh.

He likely can't destroy the Force, but he can make it do whatever he wants for as long as he wants. I see a perpetual tea bagging loop for Jean.


This match up doesnt feature the Jean avatar and is just the pure Phoenix Force. I doubt Jaspers would have more control over the Phoenixes substance than the Phoenix itself. On top of that apart from whitewashing over whats already there, where has Jaspers done anything remotely impressive to support your hypothesizing. As pointed out reality is far more than atoms, so for an avatar to be able to to turn it and manipulate it as if it in its entirety as if it was a ball, a physical object, not only suggests reality warping in itself, but also at a far greater and more precise scale than anything Jasper related.