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Next to NJO Luke, who's the best?

I think it goes to either Revan or Jacen Solo.

Revan, based on his two consecutive wins against Malak, who was being powered up by an entire race of force sensitives at the time.

Jacen Solo, from what I've heard, has been directly stated as the strongest Jedi alive by the LotF books (with the exception of Luke of course), which includes Kyp Durron, who supposedly could manipulate miniature black holes with ease, and getting closer to Luke each day.

I'm leaning towards Revan.

Yoda, Jacen, Revan, Dooku, or Mace, if you're interpreting based on "power". If you mean by "best" as in the most "faithful" or whatever, then Revan, Jacen, and Dooku are automatically gone.

I'd say Yoda...greatest foe the darkness has ever known and crap.

Originally posted by Gideon
Yoda, Jacen, Revan, Dooku, or Mace, if you're interpreting based on "power". If you mean by "best" as in the most "faithful" or whatever, then Revan, Jacen, and Dooku are automatically gone.

Yes, I mean pure power and saber skills. Like, overall the best, but without counting being faithful or intelligent or anything which has to do with that

Yoda without a doubt. Dooku couldn't defeat Yoda and Mace was second on the council for a reason.

Jacen than Yoda than Master Windu

Qui-Gon, he knew Anakin was the chosen one, and he in the end learned the greatest power of all, which is much more impressive than swinging a saber really fast.

Jacen would be 2nd.

Ummmm

1: What power was that where does it say that is there in canon proof to that?

2: QUI GON got pwned......can you spell S-U-C-K

3 i like qui gon hes a good guy has good saber skill but not the best in the world or galaxy


Yoda FTW

Note : Yoda is one of the few Jedi Council Members to ever die of OLD AGE in his time and times past........Can you recall Jedi Council Members dieing of old age? in like the sith wars or during bane's life time or anyone past just tell me

Yoda.

Originally posted by MasterAshenVor
Ummmm

1: What power was that where does it say that is there in canon proof to that?

2: QUI GON got pwned......can you spell S-U-C-K

3 i like qui gon hes a good guy has good saber skill but not the best in the world or galaxy


Yoda FTW

Note : Yoda is one of the few Jedi Council Members to ever die of OLD AGE in his time and times past........Can you recall Jedi Council Members dieing of old age? in like the sith wars or during bane's life time or anyone past just tell me

1: He means becoming a Force Spirit.
2: By Darth Maul. There are few who wouldn't go down to Maul. Also, to be fair, Qui Gon learned a lot from Dooku, was the best duelist Obi Wan had ever seen, was a hero in the Stark Hyperspace War, and was on par with Windu as of TPM. Also, he had the power to shut up Jar Jar with a touch. That itself is quite an accomplishment.
3:Agreed, I was just giving Qui Gon credit where it was due. He is not the second most powerful by a long shot.

Yoda is one of the top contenders for second best, but there's also Jacen and Kyp, too.

Originally posted by jollyjim311

3:Agreed, I was just giving Qui Gon credit where it was due. He is not the second most powerful by a long shot.

Yoda is one of the top contenders for second best, but there's also Jacen and Kyp, too.

you can't just measure power by lightsaber skills, and the fact that Yoda could spin really fast, b/c learning how to become one with the force is greater than anything Yoda did, and Qui-Gon is the one that taught Yoda,Kenobi,Anakin how to do this.

Originally posted by kiddo44
you can't just measure power by lightsaber skills

I fail to see where James is doing that at any point. In terms of dueling prowess with a blade, Yoda surpasses Qui-Gon by a huge margin. When it comes down to the Force, again, Yoda simply is leagues more powerful, and has a greater mastery and control over it. In terms of overall knowledge? Once again, Yoda takes the cake.

It's rather idiotic to say simply because Qui-Gon learned one technique that Jedi were performing like clockwork in the days of old makes him even so much as a contender for the 'Second Best Jedi'. Otherwise, Vodo Siosk-Baas, Andur Sunrider, Qu Rahn, and the like could be considered for the spot.

The fact of the matter is that the ability had been around for centuries before Jinn discovered it, and it's largely irrelevant if he was the first known in the prequel era to learn it, or teach it because it has no bearing on his personal power (as weaklings such as Andur were able to utilize it), and it means absolutely nothing. He pales in comparison to Yoda is all aspects related to strength. One certain technique puts him above the likes of Yoda (who eventually was taught the power anyways)? Not only is that probably the most ridiculous thing I've read today, it's downright absurd.

Yes and who taught Yoda this power?

, if it was such a nothing power why did Yoda,Kenobi and Anakin have to be taught it?

And the original post was not about who is the most powerful its who was the best? And Yoda as a jedi unconditionally supported a corrupt republic, and Sidious, for years, b/c the jedi had always done it that way. Qui-Gon atleast questioned things and did not just do what was percieved right by the council.

I know its very easy just to say Yoda, and if it was power Yoda would be very high, but put a little more thought into it.

Now, thre REAL question is, who is the 7th most powerful Jedi of all time! firefirefireph

Anakin Solo.

I'll take note that you didn't directly address my points.

Originally posted by kiddo44
Yes and who taught Yoda this power?

Will you do me a favor, and explain to me how who's the teacher, and who's the learner correlates into this discussion? Oh? What's that? There is no relevant relation?

It doesn't matter if Qui-Gon was the one who taught Yoda, because in the end, he still learned it. More importantly, again, one ability does not put character x over character y. Especially in this case, where character y has been taught the skill we're (well, I'm) debating about.

By your absurd logic, anyone who educated another being with a certain technique is greater than the one who they taught it to. Which is fallacious, and untrue, therefore you have no point.



I didn't say it was a 'nothing power', you dolt. I said it means absolutely nothing when taking a comparison of personal power, because weaklings like Andur "I-get-my-ass-kicked" Sunrider were able to utilize the ability.



Originally posted by Riverollv
Yes, I mean pure power and saber skills. Like, overall the best, but without counting being faithful or intelligent or anything which has to do with that

Learn2read.



So did Obi-Wan "Epitome of a Jedi" Kenobi. Your point holds no water, as virtually all the Jedi did, as well.



Relevance?

No one even so much as knew Darth Sidious had been a Sith Lord, it's not like he waltzed into the Council chambers, and declared war. He strategically manipulated the Republic, and the Jedi.

This has absolutely no bearing on anything in terms of being a Jedi; whether in regards to power, or what have you.



Wow! I guess this means Obi-Wan Kenobi isn't the definition of a Jedi. You think being a rebel, or nonconformist equates to one being a more suitable Jedi? That's ludicrous.

Your reasoning is rather shoddy, to say the least. The assertions you're making are stupid, for lack of a better word.



Actually, it's not.

And when did I ever proclaim Yoda as the second strongest Jedi? I didn't, so please don't twist what I'm arguing, kid.

You'll notice that I'm only entertaining your posts in regards to Qui-Gon being more qualified than Yoda (or everyone, rather) based solely on one power, not that Yoda is undeniably the 'Second best Jedi', or anything of the sort.



Would you mind putting any thought into what you're typing?

Firstly, the TC specified what he meant by 'best'. Simply because you're too blind to notice, doesn't mean I'm at fault here. Secondly, even if you want to encompass what it means to be a Jedi, Qui-Gon still isn't in the number two spot. Thirdly, you're an idiot.

Yoda is probably the 2nd best. And a few other notable contenders are Revan and Mace.

Jacen is also good but he is now almost a darksider or a Sith, so I am not going to vote for him now.

so you think Yoda would have just figured it out? Maybe that means Qui-Gon was more in touch with the force.


yeah and how many people will say Kenobi is the second best jedi. They did serve a corrupt republic for years, b/c that was the way it had always been done, they, the council, refused to accept change, which is what Lucas has said the prequels were about, when Anakin and the jedi would not change it all cost them. Qui-Gon always questioned things if he felt they were wrong, and went against the council often, if he was alive i doubt he would have just gone along like they did, no questions asked.

Debating with you is like talking to a little child, you claim your opinion as fact and if somebody disagrees with you, you insult them.

Again, I'll take not that you did not directly address my points.

Before I begin, I'll just copy and paste what I previously wrote, in addition to a rebuttal.

Originally edited by Advent
Will you do me a favor, and explain to me how who's the teacher, and who's the learner correlates into this discussion? Oh? What's that? There is no relevant relation?

It doesn't matter if Qui-Gon was the one who taught Yoda, because in the end, he still learned it. More importantly, again, one ability does not put character x over character y. Especially in this case, where character y has been taught the skill we're (well, I'm) debating about.

By your absurd logic, anyone who educated another being with a certain technique is greater than the one who they taught it to. Which is fallacious, and untrue, therefore you have no point.



I didn't say it was a 'nothing power', you dolt. I said it means absolutely nothing when taking a comparison of personal power, because weaklings like Andur "I-get-my-ass-kicked" Sunrider were able to utilize the ability.


Learn2read.


Relevance?

No one even so much as knew Darth Sidious had been a Sith Lord, it's not like he waltzed into the Council chambers, and declared war. He strategically manipulated the Republic, and the Jedi.

This has absolutely no bearing on anything in terms of being a Jedi; whether in regards to power, or what have you.



You think being a rebel, or nonconformist equates to one being a more suitable Jedi? That's ludicrous.

Your reasoning is rather shoddy, to say the least. The assertions you're making are stupid, for lack of a better word.



Actually, it's not.

And when did I ever proclaim Yoda as the second strongest Jedi? I didn't, so please don't twist what I'm arguing, kid.

You'll notice that I'm only entertaining your posts in regards to Qui-Gon being more qualified than Yoda (or everyone, rather) based solely on one power, not that Yoda is undeniably the 'Second best Jedi', or anything of the sort.



Would you mind putting any thought into what you're typing?

Firstly, the TC specified what he meant by 'best'. Simply because you're too blind to notice, doesn't mean I'm at fault here. Secondly, even if you want to encompass what it means to be a Jedi, Qui-Gon still isn't in the number two spot.

Try again.

Originally posted by kiddo44
so you think Yoda would have just figured it out?

No, not necessarily.

But again, even that's not pertinent. I'm trying to understand how one technique could place someone above the majority of force users in terms of power, or even what it means to be a Jedi.

You're not acknowledging the facts of which I'm bringing forth. It does not matter in the least bit whether Qui-Gon was the first to discover it in the prequel era, or ever, because it has no bearing on personal power. Let's take another force power: Force light. Yaddle knows this skill, yet Yoda doesn't. Is Yaddle above Yoda? Hell no.

For the sake of the argument, I'm merely going to assume that we're talking about who represents the Jedi best, or something of the sort. Now, why is Qui-Gon above say, Andur Sunrider? Andur was able to achieve the same state of oneness with the Force that Qui-Gon did, yet he came centuries before your god did.

How does becoming a Force ghost make him a 'better' Jedi than Yoda? Explain this to me, which you've yet to do.



Non sequiturs are now acceptable as responses?

That doesn't follow at all. Qui-Gon Jinn learned a technique, that was eventually taught to Yoda, anyhow. It perhaps would hold merit, had Yoda not been able to successfully learn such a power, but he did. Even then, I retract my statement, because a single skill does not put one being over another. Is Kyle Katarn more powerful than Luke Skywalker, because of the exotic variaty of force powers he has? No, he's not. For your words to be correct, that would have to be true. Since it isn't, they're not.

That's besides the fact that a weakling, who was killed by a handful of weak mercenaries, was able to grasp the same ability. So, that alone destroys this "point". Try again.



In regards to his power? None, but that wasn't what I was saying.

In regards to him being the "definition"? A lot. Janus, for one (the real one). Me, for second. And those two opinions account for a lot.

He did what even Yoda, Vodo, and many other venerable and respected Jedi could not do, he let go of his attachments. He was arguably the most humble Jedi of the entire Order, and strongly upheld the code itself. He was one of the most, if not the most, acceptable candidate for being what it means to be a Jedi. Which really has little to nothing at all to do with your prowess in battle.

Would you take a look at what you actually wrote? You're basing Qui-Gon's higher rank because he was defiant, and "questioned things", whereas Yoda, and company followed the Republic, even though they were "corrupt"? Hint: Qui-Gon still plead his allegiance to the Republic, and served the Jedi, and still Anakin always was uncertain about the Jedi way, is he now the "epitome of a Jedi"?

Short answer: No.

Your logic is extremely faulty. Try again.



Why are you explaining something that holds absolutely no water?



So, he's a 'better' Jedi because of this? Wow. Huzzah for your capable reasoning abilities.



One of the best debaters (sometimes considered the best) currently has a mentality like that of a small child? That speaks well for the forums.

It's also quite hypocritical of you to even make such a statement, considering you've continued to base Qui-Gon supposed superiority over Yoda, and everyone else for that matter, based on a single technique, and the fact he was rebellious. Even when direct evidence from my end disproves such a thought.



Can you please show me where I've stated an opinion as 'fact'? Everything I've stated thus far is nigh indisputable, save for my comment about Obi-Wan, which is an opinion; although, it certainly holds truth behind it, and isn't an illogical deduction.



Despite the fact I clearly provide viable evidence to back up my assertions, and whenever someone 'disagrees' with that (for whatever the reason may be) - I continue to prove them wrong? You act as if I make claim x, and debater a disagrees, I go off on a degrading spree.

This is not the case, and it never has been.

I find absolutely no fault on my end for making rude remarks towards my opposition due to that, and the fact that despite reason being thrown in your face, you continue on your 'KWAIJOHN JIN BESTEVAR!!!//!!ONELEVEN!" campaign.

Now, let's turn the tables, and I'll pass judgment on you from what I've seen. You: 1) fail to address the majority of points directly, even then it's a one liner that has no proof behind it, 2) make ridiculous assumptions, or assertions based on your own idiotic illusions.

There's a reason no one gives a shit what you think. This is it. Try again.

Im not putting it just on the fact he learned that power but you can not just discount b/c Qui-Gon always had a connection with the "living Force" which is why most likely he was able to learn this and teach it to Yoda and Kenobi.

And i would never put any PT jedi as the best,outside of Qui-Gon, b/c of their serving Sidious and the republic for so long and not questioning anything. If you think Yoda fine, that is a very easy thing to say. The reason i don't address all your points b/c your posts are ridiculously long rhetoric of your opinion. Im not going to read a book on how you think Yoda is the greatest, if you do fine, but move on, and you are like talking to a little kid b/c you keep just repeating yourself and insulting. so pathetic.

Yeah, Kiddo, notice ho Kenobi and Yoda continued to support the system after they found out it was corrupt.

Oh wait! No they didn't, they tried to kill the two most important figures.

Just because Sidious disguised his plans perfectly doesn't mean that Yoda or Obi Wan, or any Jedi in the Clone Wars was ignorant. They were just supporting a system that they thought worked, and would prefer the Galaxy no to be run by Sith, ironically (Meaning Dooku). The battles against the CIS had to happen.

Originally posted by kiddo44
Im not putting it just on the fact he learned that power but you can not just discount b/c Qui-Gon always had a connection with the "living Force" which is why most likely he was able to learn this and teach it to Yoda and Kenobi.

You're not looking at the facts that are being presented. Since you have had trouble thus far, I'll explain it to you in a manner even you can understand.

Andur. Sunrider. Was. A. Weakling.

Yet,

He. Utilized. The. Ability. Centuries. Before.

Therefore, I'm lead to believe that

Force. Connection. Plays. A. Small. Role.

And that,

It. Means. Very. Little.

And I'm absolutely right, considering what I've brought to the proverbial table thus far. Otherwise known as "proof". Something of which you haven't shown a single sentence to contain.

Who's wrong? The lovely lady with viable evidence? Or the Uma Thurman wannabe with absolutely nothing except baseless assertions?

You still refuse to outright acknowledge, or answer my questions, which are extremely relevant to the conversation. Since you can't, and are making excuses (false ones, to boot), I'll just assume that you know you're wrong, and cannot admit defeat. Either that, or when I tell you that you lack intelligence, I'll have hit the nail on the head.



Originally posted by Advent
No one even so much as knew Darth Sidious had been a Sith Lord, it's not like he waltzed into the Council chambers, and declared war. He strategically manipulated the Republic, and the Jedi.

Originally posted by jollyjim311
Yeah, Kiddo, notice ho Kenobi and Yoda continued to support the system after they found out it was corrupt.

Oh wait! No they didn't, they tried to kill the two most important figures.

Just because Sidious disguised his plans perfectly doesn't mean that Yoda or Obi Wan, or any Jedi in the Clone Wars was ignorant. They were just supporting a system that they thought worked, and would prefer the Galaxy no to be run by Sith, ironically (Meaning Dooku). The battles against the CIS had to happen.

Double QED.



Already addressed in a previous post, see below.



Originally posted by Advent
Will you do me a favor, and explain to me how who's the teacher, and who's the learner correlates into this discussion? Oh? What's that? There is no relevant relation?

It doesn't matter if Qui-Gon was the one who taught Yoda, because in the end, he still learned it. More importantly, again, one ability does not put character x over character y. Especially in this case, where character y has been taught the skill we're (well, I'm) debating about.

By your absurd logic, anyone who educated another being with a certain technique is greater than the one who they taught it to. Which is fallacious, and untrue, therefore you have no point.

No one even so much as knew Darth Sidious had been a Sith Lord, it's not like he waltzed into the Council chambers, and declared war. He strategically manipulated the Republic, and the Jedi.

This has absolutely no bearing on anything in terms of being a Jedi; whether in regards to power, or what have you.

You're not acknowledging the facts of which I'm bringing forth. It does not matter in the least bit whether Qui-Gon was the first to discover it in the prequel era, or ever, because it has no bearing on personal power. Let's take another force power: Force light. Yaddle knows this skill, yet Yoda doesn't. Is Yaddle above Yoda? Hell no.

For the sake of the argument, I'm merely going to assume that we're talking about who represents the Jedi best, or something of the sort. Now, why is Qui-Gon above say, Andur Sunrider? Andur was able to achieve the same state of oneness with the Force that Qui-Gon did, yet he came centuries before your god did.

How does becoming a Force ghost make him a 'better' Jedi than Yoda? Explain this to me, which you've yet to do.

Non sequiturs are now acceptable as responses?

That doesn't follow at all. Qui-Gon Jinn learned a technique, that was eventually taught to Yoda, anyhow. It perhaps would hold merit, had Yoda not been able to successfully learn such a power, but he did. Even then, I retract my statement, because a single skill does not put one being over another. Is Kyle Katarn more powerful than Luke Skywalker, because of the exotic variaty of force powers he has? No, he's not. For your words to be correct, that would have to be true. Since it isn't, they're not.

That's besides the fact that a weakling, who was killed by a handful of weak mercenaries, was able to grasp the same ability. So, that alone destroys this "point". Try again.


In regards to his power? None, but that wasn't what I was saying.

In regards to him being the "definition"? A lot. Janus, for one (the real one). Me, for second. And those two opinions account for a lot.

He did what even Yoda, Vodo, and many other venerable and respected Jedi could not do, he let go of his attachments. He was arguably the most humble Jedi of the entire Order, and strongly upheld the code itself. He was one of the most, if not the most, acceptable candidate for being what it means to be a Jedi. Which really has little to nothing at all to do with your prowess in battle.

Would you take a look at what you actually wrote? You're basing Qui-Gon's higher rank because he was defiant, and "questioned things", whereas Yoda, and company followed the Republic, even though they were "corrupt"? Hint: Qui-Gon still plead his allegiance to the Republic, and served the Jedi, and still Anakin always was uncertain about the Jedi way, is he now the "epitome of a Jedi"?

Short answer: No.

Your logic is extremely faulty. Try again.

The only thing that even so much as held an opinion behind it was proclaiming Obi-Wan the "definition of a Jedi", yet again, it was a statement made with reason, and proof to support it. Everything else is either solid fact, logically deduced, or an inquiry that answers itself (thusly defeating the corresponding point made by you) with much viable evidence put behind it.

When I call you out on being wrong, point blank, you are. It's only 'long', because I'm trying to explain exactly why you're points are invalid, or incorrect.



Originally posted by Advent
And when did I ever proclaim Yoda as the second strongest Jedi? I didn't, so please don't twist what I'm arguing, kid.

You'll notice that I'm only entertaining your posts in regards to Qui-Gon being more qualified than Yoda (or everyone, rather) based solely on one power, not that Yoda is undeniably the 'Second best Jedi', or anything of the sort.

Nice to know that you cannot even so much as comprehend basic messages. And somehow, I'm the 'kid', kiddo.



Really, you're the only one who's pathetic here. Being able to debate properly is not your forte, stick to Tarantino movies, Beatrix.

Now, there's a reason why I'm constantly saying the same things over and over, it's simple: because you didn't refute them the first time. You did not address all of my points the first time, in fact, you only responded to two of them with one liners. Everything I say is relevant, and acts as a separate point (unless repeated in the same form). Whereas your posts are riddled with irrelevant bullshit, and you still refuse to recognize valid points.

Please try, and not make yourself look more idiotic than you already do. I mean, first you claimed that the TC wasn't talking about 'power', when I showed you he was. So now you're attempting to degrade my argument into something it's not, even when we have a written account of everything that's been discussed?

I'll go with kiddo44 is a moron for $500, Alex.

Oh! Boohoo, I insulted you. Get over it, because they are well deserved, and justified. You may have had a point had I just gone off on a shit talking rampage, but I haven't, and I always directly address points. Insults are secondary, as much is apparent.

its not even worth reading all that crap you write.

Like PVS would've said: an idiotic debating tactic from an equally idiotic debater.

Somehow, in kiddo44's world, facts and logical reasoning equate to 'crap'. No wonder he/she fails here at the SWVF.

Originally posted by Riverollv
Next to NJO Luke, who's the best?

Kyle is the first that comes to my mind.

Yes, Kyle is very good also.... as well as Yoda, Revan, Mace and more.

Advent made a pretty good case for Kyle beaing ROTS Sidious in a duel so he might be above Yoda there.

How about Jacen? He is second only to Luke during NJO.

I'm pretty sure Kyp could have taken him.

Originally posted by vader11
How about Jacen? He is second only to Luke during NJO. If its power, i would say its Jacen right behind NJO Luke.

What did NJO Jacen do that was so impressive?

That last bit at the end was a plot device/Deus Ex Machina. Does it have anything whatsoever to do with Jacen's average power levels?

Kyp DID move a Dovin Basel like Luke, ya know.

I'd say this position goes to Kyp with Yoda just a half step behind. Jacen is better than Kyp overall but Kyp's talents are much more combat orientated and I believe would give him sufficient advantage in a fight to defeat Jacen.

Edit: Raynar while empowered by the Kiliks would probably be the second strongest if considered a Jedi while in that state. I personally feel that he was such as a Jedi but I know that many people do not.

Originally posted by Nikkolas
What did NJO Jacen do that was so impressive?


So many things in combat he defeated Tsavong Lah,Dinn,Omni, and he was close with Luke in that Phantom fight.
He also can absorb lasers, mask his presence in the force, he was able to reverse Omni's magic, and if you have read the Unifiying force you know he reached a level no jedi or sith has ever reached before, which shows his potential, even though it did say he would proably not be able to do that again.

"As of the events of Legacy of the Force: Bloodlines, Jacen considers himself to be the second most-powerful Jedi in the galaxy; he also believes that once he masters Sith teachings, he will be more powerful than Luke."

Originally posted by vader11
"As of the events of Legacy of the Force: Bloodlines, Jacen considers himself to be the second most-powerful Jedi in the galaxy; he also believes that once he masters Sith teachings, he will be more powerful than Luke." Wouldn't be a Jedi then would he?

My thoughts exactly.

James Luceno stated that the upcoming series will reveal his new Sith name, "most likely Darth Acheron".

Really stretching for names now ain't they?

Wait, what's this got to do with the thread topic?

Originally posted by Gideon
Yoda, Jacen, Revan, Dooku, or Mace, if you're interpreting based on "power". If you mean by "best" as in the most "faithful" or whatever, then Revan, Jacen, and Dooku are automatically gone. dooku wasn't that strong

I bet the guy looked at this flash to think of a new Sith name.

http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/253327