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Food for thought, with the recent Virginia Tech Tragedy, and the 10 year aniversary of the Columbine shooting.... why are our kids doing these things now?


One possible answer:

inUCvslbdkI


You may or may not agree, but at least watch it all, then post your comment.

land of the free.

No. Violence has been on the Earth for as long as humans have lived. These shootings maybe tragic, but they are pale when compared to the mass murder waged upon the Earth by the Christian Church.

I saw "The Day They Kicked God Out of Our Schools." and stopped watching.

There was no mandatory teaching of God in my school, no gun crime there. Stupid thing to suggest, Sith.

"Our" children? We all know what we feel is right and wrong, just because it doesn't coincide with Christians' blinkered view of the sort, doesn't mean we don't know.

-AC

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
No. Violence has been on the Earth for as long as humans have lived. These shootings maybe tragic, but they are pale when compared to the mass murder waged upon the Earth by the Christian Church.

Very True, if we were talking about world history.

We aren't.


I'm talking about the United States, particularly the last century or so, where we've gone from kids in one room school houses to kids killing in school houses.

The last century of apparent "progress" and "change" that should be making our world better, fair, and more accepting of all types of human expression.


edit: @ AC if you didn't even watch it, then don't bother comenting.

Originally posted by sithsaber408
Very True, if we were talking about world history.

We aren't.


I'm talking about the United States, particularly the last century or so, where we've gone from kids in one room school houses to kids killing in school houses.

The last century of apparent "progress" and "change" that should be making our world better, fair, and more accepting of all types of human expression.


edit: @ AC if you didn't even watch it, then don't bother comenting.

OK US history. What about all the Blacks that where lynched in the early part of the 20th century, in the south? Or the men killed in trying to unionize the coal minds?

Originally posted by sithsaber408
Very True, if we were talking about world history.

We aren't.


I'm talking about the United States, particularly the last century or so, where we've gone from kids in one room school houses to kids killing in school houses.

The last century of apparent "progress" and "change" that should be making our world better, fair, and more accepting of all types of human expression.


edit: @ AC if you didn't even watch it, then don't bother comenting.

I did watch it in the end, out of sheer curiousity. My post remains the same.

When will you accept that not everyone needs, or wants, God? If he even exists. What about doing that is so hard for you? Honestly. Why can't you just stand back, live your life (And just yours.) as you wish, and let others live theirs?

-AC

tzRrqNGd_0o

Have you noticed all the violence on t.v. lately, that could be a contributing factor.

Originally posted by Faceman
Have you noticed all the violence on t.v. lately, that could be a contributing factor. Everyone watches violent television, but is everyone a gun weilding sociopath? No.

im sick of this notion that all the violence in the world just started now. its so old and factually incorrect. i dont even have to watch that video to know the horseshit its about. seen enough, heard enough.

*edit* watched the first half-second. someone please kick this baby jesus conspiracy spam to the religion forum.

Originally posted by Faceman
Have you noticed all the violence on t.v. lately, that could be a contributing factor.

Have you seen all the violence on TV lately? Me too.

Why aren't we out killing people then? Bearing in mind it's not cos we have God in our lives, as I don't. I'm agnostic.

-AC

Originally posted by sithsaber408
Food for thought, with the recent Virginia Tech Tragedy, and the 10 year aniversary of the Columbine shooting.... why are our kids doing these things now?


One possible answer:

inUCvslbdkI


You may or may not agree, but at least watch it all, then post your comment. Did that video say child pornography was legal?

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Have you seen all the violence on TV lately? Me too.

Why aren't we out killing people then? Bearing in mind it's not cos we have God in our lives, as I don't. I'm agnostic.

-AC Well just turn on the news now a days and you'll see a more violent society than ever before. Better yet look up criminal justice statistics involving violence, and you will see that it is on the rise. Or just take a look at our own government's failed war over sea..

The suggestion that school shooting are caused by a lack of God in our schools is ludicrous at best.

Originally posted by Faceman
Well just turn on the news now a days and you'll see a more violent society than ever before. Better yet look up criminal justice statistics involving violence, and you will see that it is on the rise. Or just take a look at our own government's failed war over sea.. Yeah because in the middle ages where everyone was religious or dead, there was no violence. Weren't there? Oh except for the violence at church, classrooms, the unending invasions and prisonments.

Oh and how about this, the US has a higher ratio of religious people than the UK, yet there are more deaths in the US. Surely according to the video that should be false right? But it's not. Religion causes violence, not the abscence of religion. Nor does abortion and contraception.

Originally posted by sithsaber408
Food for thought, with the recent Virginia Tech Tragedy, and the 10 year aniversary of the Columbine shooting.... why are our kids doing these things now?


One possible answer:

inUCvslbdkI


You may or may not agree, but at least watch it all, then post your comment. That was rather stupid,ill be damed if they will teach that ignorant shit in schools,lets just teach the bible in school dur the earth is 6000 years old....and about the condom and abortion part,lets not give them condoms and abortions so they can go have kids they cant take care of.....this shit only happens in America,partly because rednecks give there kids guns a 4 and because Americans are always taking those depreshion pills

Originally posted by lord xyz
Yeah because in the middle ages where everyone was religious or dead, there was no violence. Weren't there? Oh except for the violence at church, classrooms, the unending invasions and prisonments.

Oh and how about this, the US has a higher ratio of religious people than the UK, yet there are more deaths in the US. Surely according to the video that should be false right? But it's not. Religion causes violence, not the abscence of religion. Nor does abortion and contraception. yes

Originally posted by lord xyz
Yeah because in the middle ages where everyone was religious or dead, there was no violence. Weren't there? Oh except for the violence at church, classrooms, the unending invasions and prisonments.

Oh and how about this, the US has a higher ratio of religious people than the UK, yet there are more deaths in the US. Surely according to the video that should be false right? But it's not. Religion causes violence, not the abscence of religion. Nor does abortion and contraception. Where does it say anything about religion in my post????????

Originally posted by Faceman
Where does it say anything about religion in my post???????? That was more directed to thread than you.

There is no magic solution or prevention. Mostly parents are responsible and these are just ISOLATED INCIDENTS THAT HAPPEN ON OCCASION. That's why they're almost always well off suburban white kids, not kids in inner-city schools who are generally exposed to much more violence and have much easier access to guns. I just hate that ****ing idiots like tipper gore, joe lieberman, sam brownback, james dobson have made a career off this shit.

Originally posted by lord xyz
That was more directed to thread than you. Are you a bobby, by any chance?

Originally posted by Faceman
Are you a bobby, by any chance? No...

Originally posted by lord xyz
No... Oh, i just thought you were because of you're sig..

Originally posted by Faceman
Well just turn on the news now a days and you'll see a more violent society than ever before. Better yet look up criminal justice statistics involving violence, and you will see that it is on the rise. Or just take a look at our own government's failed war over sea..

Yes, that was the part I got.

"TV may be a contributing factor.", to what? It's not making ME go out and kill, or you. I'm not above suggesting people can be sane to do these things, BUT if TV makes you do something, then you obviously aren't all the ticket anyway.

If anything, listening to violent music, or heavy music, is a good way to vent. Same with violent TV. As Mike Patton once said; "If a man goes into a bank with a machine gun and shoots a lot of holes in the wall, he didn't kill anybody.".

-AC

for those too busy to watch it let me just summerize the film.

There would be no more school shootings if we could just pray to a christian god in school and study the bible, ban abortion and contraception, wipe out gay people, equate a president getting head with a war crime, set up communist style censorship boards to license artists before they are allowed to perform or put anything out, and criminalize child pornography (contrary to what the video says, it already is).
seriously, whenever i hear crap like this i just picture some zealot in a business suit with a cross necklace whistling the national anthem and greasing the wheels on rusty cattle cars.

Originally posted by sithsaber408
Food for thought, with the recent Virginia Tech Tragedy, and the 10 year aniversary of the Columbine shooting.... why are our kids doing these things now?

One possible answer:

You may or may not agree, but at least watch it all, then post your comment.

SithSabre, do you honestly think that if "Jesus's teachings" were curriculum in American schools violence would just stop? That insane/unstable people would cease to exist?

Oh, please keep in mind the millions of pupils in American schools not being taught "Jesus" that don't murder/assult as compared to how many "go nuts".

Originally posted by Darth Jello
...seriously, whenever i hear crap like this i just picture some zealot in a business suit with a cross necklace whistling the national anthem and greasing the wheels on rusty cattle cars.

That gave me chills.

Originally posted by Faceman
Oh, i just thought you were because of you're sig.. It's from the film hot Fuzz.

Originally posted by lord xyz
It's from the film hot Fuzz.

Originally posted by sithsaber408
Food for thought, with the recent Virginia Tech Tragedy, and the 10 year aniversary of the Columbine shooting.... why are our kids doing these things now?

The media has exploded in the last 12 years. If someone did that in the early 20th century, it would take the pony express for the world to find out about their martyrdom.

Originally posted by botankus
The media has exploded in the last 12 years. If someone did that in the early 20th century, it would take the pony express for the world to find out about their martyrdom. Exactly.

I don't think asking "Why are they doing it now?" is the right question to be asking. I think there are several questions we ought to ask.

1. Have our youth always been this aggressive throughout our history as a nation?

2a. If not, what is causing this aggression?
2b. If so, what has changed in the outlets for aggression that has encouraged violence among our youth?

3. What can we do to decrease aggression and provide appropriate outlets for aggression?

Originally posted by botankus
The media has exploded in the last 12 years. If someone did that in the early 20th century, it would take the pony express for the world to find out about their martyrdom.

The pony express would have no story because this DIDN'T happen back then.




Let's get real.

We are talking about 17 school shootings in the last 15 years. (18 if you count the one mentioned in Canada.)



And not the "gang fight leads to shooting" or "kid shoots cheating girlfriend" variety either.



We're talking about kids, the oldest being Seiung-hui Cho who was 23 and most are 12-16, who for no specific reason or offense decide to kill as many students as they can before they die.


That doesn't strike some of you as being a little bit off, does it?

As being a huge shift and change from what was going on in this country 50 years ago.



Something is to blame.

Something has happened in the psyche and culture of young people to make this possible.


Several answers have been attempted: Music, video games, divorce, etc....

Those are all just a stab in the dark, a guess as to what's changed with young people.



It's quite simple to me:

Take prayer out of schools-check.
Take Bible out of schools-check.
Teach evolution and no god (therefore life has no meaning and a teen no real purpose)-check
Allow sex and perversion in the culture, in the schools, and promote that any pleasure should be pursued-check
Passing of abortion, more proof that life isn't always sacred, and if you feel like it can be discarded-check




Equals= 18 school shootings in as many years.

Do the numbers.

I've listed all the variables that have been different for this young generations upbringing, and we've all seen the results.

"Teach evolution and no god (therefore life has no meaning and a teen no real purpose)"

The bolded part is especially large and smelly shit... Why do you equate life having a meaning solely with god? It's fine if that's your sole purpose for living; just don't impose that mindset on others as being factual. Were is your basis for that conclusion, God=Meaning to/of life?

It is extremely insulting to tell others their lives have no meaning because they do not believe in god or to be more precise, your view of God.

Originally posted by sithsaber408
Food for thought, with the recent Virginia Tech Tragedy, and the 10 year aniversary of the Columbine shooting.... why are our kids doing these things now?


One possible answer:

inUCvslbdkI


You may or may not agree, but at least watch it all, then post your comment.

I agree there's a reason all thes shootings happened in the last 15 years. But I dont think making Bible 101 a required course will do much.

Originally posted by sithsaber408
The pony express would have no story because this DIDN'T happen back then.




Let's get real.

We are talking about 17 school shootings in the last 15 years. (18 if you count the one mentioned in Canada.)



And not the "gang fight leads to shooting" or "kid shoots cheating girlfriend" variety either.



We're talking about kids, the oldest being Seiung-hui Cho who was 23 and most are 12-16, who for no specific reason or offense decide to kill as many students as they can before they die.


That doesn't strike some of you as being a little bit off, does it?

As being a huge shift and change from what was going on in this country 50 years ago.



Something is to blame.

Something has happened in the psyche and culture of young people to make this possible.


Several answers have been attempted: Music, video games, divorce, etc....

Those are all just a stab in the dark, a guess as to what's changed with young people.



It's quite simple to me:

Take prayer out of schools-check.
Take Bible out of schools-check.
Teach evolution and no god (therefore life has no meaning and a teen no real purpose)-check
Allow sex and perversion in the culture, in the schools, and promote that any pleasure should be pursued-check
Passing of abortion, more proof that life isn't always sacred, and if you feel like it can be discarded-check




Equals= 18 school shootings in as many years.

Do the numbers.

I've listed all the variables that have been different for this young generations upbringing, and we've all seen the results.

What do you have to say about all the people killing, shooting or bombing (Yes, him.) people in the name of God? What or WHO is to blame then? Lack of God? According to the criminals in question, God gave them the ok. These are people who do live their lives by the bible and by religion.

So it's clearly not the answer you wish it would be, because we've all seen or heard the news reports of pro-lifers murdering doctors, students or men killing each other because God told them to.

I'm just curious as to where you stand on this particular issue.

-AC

Originally posted by sithsaber408
Food for thought, with the recent Virginia Tech Tragedy, and the 10 year aniversary of the Columbine shooting.... why are our kids doing these things now?

You may or may not agree, but at least watch it all, then post your comment.

Bullshit.

You're a typical reactionary drone. If you see change, and something bad happens, it must be a result of the change. Thats horrible logic and is the product of zero insight.

Why are all the school shootings in the South? Thats were all the religious people are. Hell, Cho compared himself to Jesus Christ, maybe Religion is the problem and lack of religion the solution.

(I don't believe that last statement at all, I'm just pointing out what an ignoramous you're being)

One time, I evolved into Cthulhu while shooting preschoolers, having an abortion, and sexing a racist gay pedophile.

This video reaches a false conclusion. It wishes to present the topic as though the exclusion of god and religion from school is where the ball started rolling downhill. This is not the case. It wants to present the idea that removal of religion and the bible from our schools is why teachers and principles can't discipline kids. It wants to present the removal of the bible and religion from our school as a reason teenagers get pregnant. It wants to present abortion as a reason for teen age sex. (And Sith, we all know you're not one to talk when it comes to this.) That's the same ricockulous logic behind don't vaccinate our kids from HPV because they'll all run out and start having sex in the streets.

AC pointed out that these things don't happen in his part of the world. He's right. As was the member who posted the Michael Moore clip. There's no need for the amount of guns we have in the US (Despite my intense dislike of Michael Moore)

But, the video makes a good point. Teachers and school administrators are on pins and needles with these kids because the parents of this country, conservative and liberal alike, don't want someone else telling their kids they're wrong. Parents in this country are consumed with the idea that their kids are right and the teacher is wrong, it's the parents treating their kids like extensions of themselves. And that would be like the teacher telling the parent they're wrong. And who the hell is the teacher to do that? And kids pick up on that attitude.

The video wants to say that the kids in these situations would have known what they were doing was wrong if they'd ever picked up a bible. Well, it isn't that they don't know what they're doing is wrong. It's a matter of knowing what they're doing is wrong and that's why they're doing it!

God was still around in the 1966 Texas school shooting, so God's reply to the concerned student was a lie.

Ricockulous.

Originally posted by FeceMan
Ricockulous.

Are you just pointing that out, or do you have a more elaborate response to my post?

Then, of course, there's the notion that was raised very crucially in a Stewart Lee video I saw.

"I'm not against teaching religion in schools, but only if it's not taught as fact. Educating people on each other's religions, fine, but acting as if believing in God or A god is the default, that's wrong. That's like asking 'What team do you support?' before asking 'Do you even like football?'.".

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
What do you have to say about all the people killing, shooting or bombing (Yes, him.) people in the name of God? What or WHO is to blame then? Lack of God? According to the criminals in question, God gave them the ok. These are people who do live their lives by the bible and by religion.

So it's clearly not the answer you wish it would be, because we've all seen or heard the news reports of pro-lifers murdering doctors, students or men killing each other because God told them to.

I'm just curious as to where you stand on this particular issue.

-AC

My stand would be that they are wrong.


The religion they claim to follow (if it was christianity) doesn't teach or condone such things.


In fact, Christ says to: "love your neighbor as yourself."

The kind of thing that could be good if taught in schools.


I realize it's a much-used and often maligned phrase, but I'd wager that the bombers and shooters you mentioned aren't.... True Christians (.tm)Originally posted by Alliance
Bullshit.

You're a typical reactionary drone. If you see change, and something bad happens, it must be a result of the change. Thats horrible logic and is the product of zero insight.

Why are all the school shootings in the South? Thats were all the religious people are. Hell, Cho compared himself to Jesus Christ, maybe Religion is the problem and lack of religion the solution.

(I don't believe that last statement at all, I'm just pointing out what an ignoramous you're being) Yes because the 2 shootings in California, the one in Alaska, or the one in Canada were comitted by Redneck Religous Rights activits.

Cho was no Southern redneck, and Virginia is no rednecked state.

Tell the millions of Christians in California and New York that the south is where all the religious people are.



Phail.







The lack of logic and insight is on your part.

I've shown the different changes and steps taken in the last 50 years, and what I (and many others) believe is the result are these types of shootings now seen in the U.S.


What would you attribute it to then?Originally posted by Robtard
"Teach evolution and no god (therefore life has no meaning and a teen no real purpose)"

The bolded part is especially large and smelly shit... Why do you equate life having a meaning solely with god? It's fine if that's your sole purpose for living; just don't impose that mindset on others as being factual. Were is your basis for that conclusion, God=Meaning to/of life?

It is extremely insulting to tell others their lives have no meaning because they do not believe in god or to be more precise, your view of God. Just taking the philsophical issue to it's logical conclusion.

If evolution is true, there is no god. Life is an accident, and we have nothing after our bodies rot to look forward to. Life's accomplishments are hollow, as we will pass away, and somebody else will come along in 50 years and undo whatever we managed to make happen.

Whats the point of life if it's all an accident anyway?

Whereas some older people may be able to find some limited joy and meaning in their lives small accomplishments, it's hard to expect a teenager with hormones and ideals swirling and developing to be so astute.

They'll likely see such limited aspirations as man's way of making himself feel better about an accidental life that will not mean anything once he's dead.


Therefore: teach evolution=no god, and no purpose.

Originally posted by sithsaber408
My stand would be that they are wrong.


The religion they claim to follow (if it was christianity) doesn't teach or condone such things.


In fact, Christ says to: "love your neighbor as yourself."

The kind of thing that could be good if taught in schools.

Exactly, who here is against saying "Be nice to one another."? Not me. You just don't need Jesus to do it. Stop focusing on Jesus, on God, and start focusing on what they promoted.

Not how to push your agenda.

-AC

Originally posted by sithsaber408
What would you attribute it to then? Just taking the philsophical issue to it's logical conclusion.

If evolution is true, there is no god. Life is an accident, and we have nothing after our bodies rot to look forward to. Life's accomplishments are hollow, as we will pass away, and somebody else will come along in 50 years and undo whatever we managed to make happen.

Whats the point of life if it's all an accident anyway?

Whereas some older people may be able to find some limited joy and meaning in their lives small accomplishments, it's hard to expect a teenager with hormones and ideals swirling and developing to be so astute.

They'll likely see such limited aspirations as man's way of making himself feel better about an accidental life that will not mean anything once he's dead.

Therefore: teach evolution=no god, and no purpose.

Illogical at it's purest... Evolution being true doesn't in any shape or form disprove god. It disproves certain facets of your religious views and dogma.

The fact that you find not being rewarded in some manner AFTER you die as being equal to 'life not having a meaning' is very telling. It tells me that the only reason you're a "decent person" is because 1) you're greedy i.e. you want a reward and because 2)you're fearful i.e. you don't want to be punished after you die.

No one knows if life is an "accident" or not, it's a guess... but it is wonderful in the here and now, so enjoy it (just my opinion on that part)

"Therefore: teach evolution=no god, and no purpose." Only in your narrow, insulting and illogical views.

Originally posted by Robtard
Illogical at it's purest... Evolution being true doesn't in any shape or form disprove god. It disproves certain facets of your religious views and dogma.

The fact that you find not being rewarded in some manner AFTER you die as being equal to 'life not having a meaning' is very telling. It tells me that the only reason you're a "decent person" is because 1) you're greedy i.e. you want a reward and because 2)you're fearful i.e. you don't want to be punished after you die.

No one knows if life is an "accident" or not, it's a guess... but it is wonderful in the here and now, so enjoy it (just my opinion on that part)

"Therefore: teach evolution=no god, and no purpose." Only in your narrow, insulting and illogical views.

You do remember that I was approaching that idea from a kids point of view, yes?

Originally posted by sithsaber408
You do remember that I was approaching that idea from a kids point of view, yes?

Irrelevant. You're saying that if you don't believe in god i.e. "Accepting Jesus as your lord and personal savior" then your life is without meaning or purpose. Does it matter if it's a child or an adult? No, it does not as their life is meaningless according to you.

Originally posted by sithsaber408
My stand would be that they are wrong.


The religion they claim to follow (if it was christianity) doesn't teach or condone such things.


In fact, Christ says to: "love your neighbor as yourself."

The kind of thing that could be good if taught in schools.



If you read the entire Bible, you will see it is contradictory on lots of topics in terms of violence. Capital punishment is advocated on the basis of "eye for an eye."

Without context, lots of stuff makes sense

I always wonder why people need a god figure to feel like their life has meaning.

Because then they have the excuse of thinking a deity will make life's choices for them, or has already.

Don't get me wrong, I know some great Christians. Actually, they're just great people who happen to be Christian.

-AC

Yeah it makes you wonder. Is it the christian in them that makes them wonderful people, or is it just the person and not the religion?

The person.

I think the idea of organised religion is complete bs, but I respect peoples' right to it. If you look at ANY religion, the message is basically respect your fellow man and woman, and whatever god you worship will forgive you for whatever you do "wrong", if you accept it and just learn from mistakes.

It's when people started using religion as a way to get power and a stranglehold on humans that it became a problem.

-AC

Originally posted by sithsaber408


It's quite simple to me:

Take prayer out of schools-check.
Take Bible out of schools-check.
Teach evolution and no god (therefore life has no meaning and a teen no real purpose)-check
Allow sex and perversion in the culture, in the schools, and promote that any pleasure should be pursued-check
Passing of abortion, more proof that life isn't always sacred, and if you feel like it can be discarded-check




Equals= 18 school shootings in as many years.

Do the numbers.

I've listed all the variables that have been different for this young generations upbringing, and we've all seen the results.

Except you put the same variables in places that are not the US and you do not get the same result.

Try applying some basic scientific logic. An isolated result is useless; the basic idea must be repeatable. You have no consistency.

The result must therefore be explained by another factor. Hence you are wrong.

Originally posted by sithsaber408
My stand would be that they are wrong.


The religion they claim to follow (if it was christianity) doesn't teach or condone such things.


In fact, Christ says to: "love your neighbor as yourself."

The kind of thing that could be good if taught in schools.


I realize it's a much-used and often maligned phrase, but I'd wager that the bombers and shooters you mentioned aren't.... True Christians (.tm) Yes because the 2 shootings in California, the one in Alaska, or the one in Canada were comitted by Redneck Religous Rights activits.

Cho was no Southern redneck, and Virginia is no rednecked state.

Tell the millions of Christians in California and New York that the south is where all the religious people are.



Phail.







The lack of logic and insight is on your part.

I've shown the different changes and steps taken in the last 50 years, and what I (and many others) believe is the result are these types of shootings now seen in the U.S.


What would you attribute it to then? Just taking the philsophical issue to it's logical conclusion.

If evolution is true, there is no god. Life is an accident, and we have nothing after our bodies rot to look forward to. Life's accomplishments are hollow, as we will pass away, and somebody else will come along in 50 years and undo whatever we managed to make happen.

Whats the point of life if it's all an accident anyway?

Whereas some older people may be able to find some limited joy and meaning in their lives small accomplishments, it's hard to expect a teenager with hormones and ideals swirling and developing to be so astute.

They'll likely see such limited aspirations as man's way of making himself feel better about an accidental life that will not mean anything once he's dead.


Therefore: teach evolution=no god, and no purpose.

Dude, I'm not even going to bother. If you reall want to talk, pm me, but I'm not going to sit here and listen to your 2-year-old ignorance.

You don't have proper conceptions of anyhting, Christianity or evolution. Society shames itself by indulging this sort of childish antics.

This is a waste of my time and you don't even warrant a response.

Originally posted by sithsaber408

Therefore: teach evolution=no god, and no purpose.

Evolution does not refute whether there is a god or not...

Fail

Note: I remember readin in the the newspaper a while back, and apparently 98% of prisoners in the US consider themselves to be christian.

LETS TRY THIS.

Anyone with a brain, don't respond to this sort of crap.

Originally posted by Devil King
Are you just pointing that out, or do you have a more elaborate response to my post?
It funny word.

Look at their upbringing and families if you want to assign blame, not ancient mythology. That would be a good place to start.

Funny video.

Not funny haha, funny queer.

Stupid video too. I like how it implies that all kids don't care about killing strangers because a few do it. That was fun.

I also liked how it implied spanking your kids, and allowing teachers to beat children when they misbehave would stop these events.

Originally posted by sithsaber408
Something is to blame.

Something has happened in the psyche and culture of young people to make this possible. Yes...maybe the fact that these were troubled kids whose problems were tragically overlooked which led to self-isolation, bitterness, and finally a lack of moral judgment. I fail to see how a lack of religion has caused a "school shooting epidemic." Have you ever thought that maybe teaching the dogmatic, narrow, and intolerant views of religion could cause more violence instead of less?

I am an agnostic, raised by a single mom, I'm not very socially adept, and I've gone through a lot of shit in my life. So why haven't I gone on a killing spree? It's upbringing. My mom, while Catholic, is not an incredibly religious woman. But she still raised me to believe in moral standards. I rejected religion when I was 13 and I have yet to go batshit insane and shoot up a nursery.

You also fail to realize that most countries in Europe are strictly secular, government-wise. And the hard-line religious right claim that we are a "Christian nation." And yet America has the highest violent crime rate of any industrialized nation. Couldn't it be construed that our problems are because of our apparent "piety" rather than despite it?

Consider that.

Originally posted by Strangelove
the dogmatic, narrow, and intolerant views of religion

Looks like someone's seen Revenge of the Sith recently.

Originally posted by Quiero Mota
Looks like someone's seen Revenge of the Sith recently. I liked the wording, but that's what I've believed for some time now.

I rejected religion on my own accord at around 16 but never got the urge to burn babies and massacre classmates.

Not related, sorry.

It starts in the home but it far more complicated than any one issue. Religion out of school does not take religion out of the home. How do you account for that in the argument that religion being taken out of schools makes kids crazy?

Originally posted by sithsaber408


If evolution is true, there is no god. Life is an accident, and we have nothing after our bodies rot to look forward to. Life's accomplishments are hollow, as we will pass away, and somebody else will come along in 50 years and undo whatever we managed to make happen.

Whats the point of life if it's all an accident anyway?



Therefore: teach evolution=no god, and no purpose. Im gonna disagree entirely. To me, evolution only bolsters my tendencys towards belief in some sort of divine plan. The fact that after millions of years, creatures like us could be born from such a simple process is amazing. Its not hard to see God in something like that.

To be honest, Im really tired of the narrowminded view that science and religion have to be totally exclusive of one another.

Originally posted by BackFire
Funny video.

Not funny haha, funny queer.

Stupid video too. I like how it implies that all kids don't care about killing strangers because a few do it. That was fun.

I also liked how it implied spanking your kids, and allowing teachers to beat children when they misbehave would stop these events.
I support beating insolent students.

What is your preferred instrument? 13

Originally posted by Alliance
What is your preferred instrument? 13
A gun.

The cat-o'-ninetails is favorite of mine

I want my three and a half minutes back.

Ya know, after watching the video, I'm liking how everyone is focusing on the "ZOMG JESUS" aspect. The creators of the video make an interesting point outside of that.

We live in a time when ethical relativism is glorified. Right and wrong are little more than an individual choice, and saying otherwise gets one labeled negatively. In fact, the only moral absolute that is extolled is that of tolerance, oftentimes bordering on the ridiculous. We've also become desensitized to violence and death. As morality has declined--or, to be politically correct, "been put into perspective"--violence in schools seems to have increased.

Now, does this necessarily mean that it has? No. Like Botankus said, the media today are pretty much everywhere at once, and we're there too--I don't have the statistics on school violence throughout American history, so I can't comment. Does this mean that the degradation of morality has caused a surge in school violence? No. Correlation obviously does not equal causation.

Do I think that bringing God back into the school system or allowing teachers to strike students or not handing out condoms is going to fix anything? No, I don't. I don't know what the solution is, to be honest.

But, maybe that is the solution. Maybe the problem today is one of spiritual warfare, of angels and demons. I can't say, and I'm not going to try to.

So what moral absolutes do you think should be in place, if any?

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
No. Violence has been on the Earth for as long as humans have lived. These shootings maybe tragic, but they are pale when compared to the mass murder waged upon the Earth by the Christian Church.

Yes if anything overall violence has died down allot.

Historical Violent Events:

Spanish Inquisition
French Revolution
Russian Revolution
The Crusades
The Holocaust
The IRA
Tienanmen Square
And lets not forget the number of Serial Killers we've had to deal with through out history.

The reason V tech bothers us so much is that it was such carnal violence in broad daylight. Nothing orderly or restrained about it.

Originally posted by FeceMan
I support beating insolent students.

You monster!

Why only insolent ones? Makes the others feel left out.

The vid could have been worse..it could have been a Deano thread.

based on living about five miles from columbine, i can say that the fact that religion, specifically some of the obnoxiously religious kids and the faculty's tolerance and indifference towards students proscellitizing, bullying, and several incidents which could legally be defined as hate crimes, bringing more god into the curriculum would have only made the situation worse. Christian Dominionism doesn't work and if you don't believe me, there are several african countries that back up my reasoning.

cut out the 99% crap in the video, and you are left with a basic truth: kids, these days, are total pussies. total.

Originally posted by sithsaber408
The pony express would have no story because this DIDN'T happen back then.

Let's get real.

Okay, I'll not talk about the media, or the Internet, or the newspaper, or the Bio Channel "The Mind of the School Shooter" special, or any other outlet that can finally get a troubled kid's message across.

Now I only have the "kids are crueler these days" argument, and I'm not sure how stable my legs would be if I were to stand behind it.

Originally posted by Strangelove
The cat-o'-ninetails is favorite of mine

someone's seen Passion of the Christ recently, eh?

Originally posted by chithappens
So what moral absolutes do you think should be in place, if any?
What do I believe should be in place, or what do I believe are in place?

Originally posted by FeceMan
Ya know, after watching the video, I'm liking how everyone is focusing on the "ZOMG JESUS" aspect. The creators of the video make an interesting point outside of that.

We live in a time when ethical relativism is glorified. Right and wrong are little more than an individual choice, and saying otherwise gets one labeled negatively. In fact, the only moral absolute that is extolled is that of tolerance, oftentimes bordering on the ridiculous. We've also become desensitized to violence and death. As morality has declined--or, to be politically correct, "been put into perspective"--violence in schools seems to have increased.

Now, does this necessarily mean that it has? No. Like Botankus said, the media today are pretty much everywhere at once, and we're there too--I don't have the statistics on school violence throughout American history, so I can't comment. Does this mean that the degradation of morality has caused a surge in school violence? No. Correlation obviously does not equal causation.

Do I think that bringing God back into the school system or allowing teachers to strike students or not handing out condoms is going to fix anything? No, I don't. I don't know what the solution is, to be honest.

But, maybe that is the solution. Maybe the problem today is one of spiritual warfare, of angels and demons. I can't say, and I'm not going to try to.

Best post in the thread.


It should be pointed out I suppose, that this was a rather red herring.

The video is aimed at Christians really, and people of faith who would ask themselves: "Why is God allowing this in our schools and with our young people now?"


And the answer for that comunity is that we've reaped we've sown by allowing too much crap to take hold in this country.

It's more of a call to arms than anything else, and I'm not ashamed to say that I got the video in an email from AFA, american family assoc.



I wondered what the secular crowds take on the issue would be, and if any of them might see it as our crowd does.

Unsurprisingly, you don't.


But as Fece pointed out, it's because these things are more on the spiritual level, with a huge amount of warfare going on over this country right now.

If you don't believe in spiritual warfare, in angels and demons and God and the devil, then you would write these shootings and the general change of morality in America off to many various things, as has been done here.


Though I think some of the points are valid, in truth they are just the evidence of whats taking place right now on the higher spiritual level.



I was curious as to the secular response to a spiritual answer for the situation presently facing the country, and I got it.

Thanks.



As the discussion is being done in the School Shooting thread on a secular level, this can be moved to the religion forums or just closed if the other posters are pretty well done with it.

Originally posted by FeceMan
What do I believe should be in place, or what do I believe are in place?

Both I guess.

The video I posted explains the gun crimes more than sith did. Originally posted by lord xyz
tzRrqNGd_0o

Originally posted by FeceMan
Ya know, after watching the video, I'm liking how everyone is focusing on the "ZOMG JESUS" aspect. The creators of the video make an interesting point outside of that.

Don't you think maybe that has to do with the tiny tiny aspect that that's the whole damn point?

Originally posted by FeceMan
We live in a time when ethical relativism is glorified. Right and wrong are little more than an individual choice, and saying otherwise gets one labeled negatively.

This is the base of the problem. The video falsely assumes that has come about becuase of the lack of publically funded Jesus camps. It's bullshit my friend. You know it. I respect your personal beliefs. But the operative word there is your. I pointed out that the video fails to mention many examples of school violence from the fifties and sixties, you know, those times most good christian folk call the "good ole days". Those glorious times where we were putting god on our money and writing him into the pledge of allegience.


Originally posted by sithsaber408
And the answer for that comunity is that we've reaped we've sown by allowing too much crap to take hold in this country.

You call it crap, I call it the law.

Originally posted by Devil King
someone's seen Passion of the Christ recently, eh? If I go through my whole life without EVER seeing that movie, I'll consider it a job well done

We had the Scopes Trial a little over eighty years ago in Tennessee, were a man was prosecuted for teaching Evolution instead of Creation... It's like there's an assumption that violence didn't happen until the Butler Act was done away with in Tennessee.

Originally posted by Strangelove
If I go through my whole life without EVER seeing that movie, I'll consider it a job well done

I wasted $9.50 and a good two+ hours of my life... Let me break it down for you.

1) We see Judas betraying Jesus and Jesus being arrested
2) Jews call for his execution
3) Pontius Pilot says he has no precedence to kill Jesus, no crimes were committed under Roman law
4) Jews call for his death anyway
5) Pontius tries to dissuade them by saying I'll kill one man and free the other, Jesus or Barabbas (the rapist, killer, thief and killer of Roman soldiers).
6) Jews still want Jesus dead over a known murderer
7) Jesus gets beat and wiped for 45+ minutes.
8) Jesus is crucified.

Alright, cool. I already knew all that, though. I was raised Catholic.

What a waste of celluloid

Originally posted by Faceman
Well just turn on the news now a days and you'll see a more violent society than ever before. Better yet look up criminal justice statistics involving violence, and you will see that it is on the rise. Or just take a look at our own government's failed war over sea..

Voilent crime with guns has actually decreased by 20%. Gun violence on the news has increased 600%.

That's why it seems worse that it really is.

Originally posted by BobbyD
Voilent crime with guns has actually decreased by 20%. Gun violence on the news has increased 600%.

That's why it seems worse that it really is.

Originally posted by Strangelove
Alright, cool. I already knew all that, though. I was raised Catholic.

What a waste of celluloid What's worse is that people think it's true.

Originally posted by FeceMan
We live in a time when ethical relativism is glorified. Right and wrong are little more than an individual choice, and saying otherwise gets one labeled negatively. In fact, the only moral absolute that is extolled is that of tolerance, oftentimes bordering on the ridiculous. We've also become desensitized to violence and death. As morality has declined--or, to be politically correct, "been put into perspective"--violence in schools seems to have increased.

The best part about this? Its wrong.

Moral relativism isn't the problem in these shootings, its moral absolutism. If you listen to these people, like Cho, they don't say that "the Christian god exists therefore I can go kill people." Cho directly compares himself to Jesus Christ, dying because of the sins of others.

Instead we hear about how THEY are wrong, "THEY are snobs, THEY are brats, THEY are hedonists."

"I HAVE to do this. YOU engaged me. The decision is YOURS."

"Thanks to you, I die, like Jesus Christ, to inspire generations of the weak and the defenseless"

There is no relativism in his mind, there is absolutism. 'These people are wrong. I am right.' THAT is the view that these murderers express. That sensation of being right, of being the ONLY right, gives them the balls to go out and shoot up a school.

If Cho had sat back and said, "you know what, these people are just different from me, making their own decisions for their own reasons," What justification does he have to kill them? None.

These aren't words of a man without morals. These are words of a kid who has morality so clearly defined that HE is the ONLY moral right.

So before you saunter off into your timeless bullshit of "morality is declining" and "desensitization to violence and death," which are separate points that I will debate you in on their own, think about what Cho's concept of morality was. Moral relativism breeds respect and tolerance for others. Cho doesn't have that. He has moral absolutes constructed (just like any other moral absolutes) around him and his goals. And he doesn't give a shit what anyone else thinks. THEY are wrong and this is THEIR problem.

Cho shows then dangers of moral absolutism, not moral relativism.

Originally posted by Alliance
The best part about this? Its wrong.

Moral relativism isn't the problem in these shootings, its moral absolutism. If you listen to these people, like Cho, they don't say that "the Christian god exists therefore I can go kill people." Cho directly compares himself to Jesus Christ, dying because of the sins of others.

Instead we hear about how THEY are wrong, "THEY are snobs, THEY are brats, THEY are hedonists."

"I HAVE to do this. YOU engaged me. The decision is YOURS."

"Thanks to you, I die, like Jesus Christ, to inspire generations of the weak and the defenseless"

There is no relativism in his mind, there is absolutism. 'These people are wrong. I am right.' THAT is the view that these murderers express. That sensation of being right, of being the ONLY right, gives them the balls to go out and shoot up a school.

If Cho had sat back and said, "you know what, these people are just different from me, making their own decisions for their own reasons," What justification does he have to kill them? None.

These aren't words of a man without morals. These are words of a kid who has morality so clearly defined that HE is the ONLY moral right.

So before you saunter off into your timeless bullshit of "morality is declining" and "desensitization to violence and death," which are separate points that I will debate you in on their own, think about what Cho's concept of morality was. Moral relativism breeds respect and tolerance for others. Cho doesn't have that. He has moral absolutes constructed (just like any other moral absolutes) around him and his goals. And he doesn't give a shit what anyone else thinks. THEY are wrong and this is THEIR problem.

Cho shows then dangers of moral absolutism, not moral relativism.

Well said. I agree

That's a bunch of crap there from Alliance. He's a nut job, that's why he did it. Relativist or absolutist, it would have happened just the same- nihilists can be very destructive indeed ('no morals, no consequences, why not kill if I feel angry?'). It's also an entieely false view of relatavists, that they live and let live with all those that don't agree them them. Hogwash. Nearly all relativists believe in laws and other moral judgments, they are just open to the possibility that those laws are not necessarily based on an absolute and unquestionable ground. Doesn't mean they do not passionately believe in them, enforce them, and condemn those who differ from them. And on the flips ide, nor do absolutists necessarily think that what they think is absolutely true and unarguable either- they simply think an unarguable stance can be found if you look hard enough. They don't claim to know it- that's a symptomn of religion, not absolutism in general.

After all, no sane relativist is going to look at what Cho just did and say "Well, that's what he believed in, so it's fine," and if one does, you are playing right into the hand of the religious absolutists. If relatavists actually acted llike the way Alliance implies there would be no society at all. To believe this is anything to do with absolutism because he says 'they' did this and that is intellectually bankrupt.

The guy was just nuts- and also rather stupid, smugly trying to justify his own destructive inanity in a self-pitying way. No need to complicate from there.

and he was a ****ing despicable writer. VTECH ought to have been embarassed that he was graduating form their writing program.

I agree with Ush, neither moral absolutism nor relativism are the cause of this....the guy was nuts, whether he believed that there are no morals so he can kill people or that there are morals so he is obligated to kill people is hardly different. No one (reasonable) says that all moral absolutists are great people nor that all relativists are mindless killers, there are extremists, criminals and other weirdos on either side of the spectrum...

Originally posted by Bardock42
I agree with Ush, neither moral absolutism nor relativism are the cause of this....the guy was nuts, whether he believed that there are no morals so he can kill people or that there are morals so he is obligated to kill people is hardly different. No one (reasonable) says that all moral absolutists are great people nor that all relativists are mindless killers, there are extremists, criminals and other weirdos on either side of the spectrum...

Very well said, Bardock.

Hope all is well.

Originally posted by BobbyD
Very well said, Bardock.

Hope all is well.

Mostly, thank you.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
That's a bunch of crap there from Alliance. He's a nut job, that's why he did it. Relativist or absolutist, it would have happened just the same- nihilists can be very destructive indeed ('no morals, no consequences, why not kill if I feel angry?'). It's also an entieely false view of relatavists, that they live and let live with all those that don't agree them them. Hogwash. Nearly all relativists believe in laws and other moral judgments, they are just open to the possibility that those laws are not necessarily based on an absolute and unquestionable ground. Doesn't mean they do not passionately believe in them, enforce them, and condemn those who differ from them. And on the flips ide, nor do absolutists necessarily think that what they think is absolutely true and unarguable either- they simply think an unarguable stance can be found if you look hard enough. They don't claim to know it- that's a symptomn of religion, not absolutism in general.

After all, no sane relativist is going to look at what Cho just did and say "Well, that's what he believed in, so it's fine," and if one does, you are playing right into the hand of the religious absolutists. If relatavists actually acted llike the way Alliance implies there would be no society at all. To believe this is anything to do with absolutism because he says 'they' did this and that is intellectually bankrupt.

The guy was just nuts- and also rather stupid, smugly trying to justify his own destructive inanity in a self-pitying way. No need to complicate from there.

How dare you challenge our competing camps Originally posted by manorastroman
and he was a ****ing despicable writer. VTECH ought to have been embarassed that he was graduating form their writing program.

I agree.

Relativism can lead to an absolutism which leads to bigotry.

This comes from the idea of tolerance - I will tolerate you rather than accept you and who you are.

But without acceptance, you will never truly be tolerant.

Originally posted by sithsaber408
Food for thought, with the recent Virginia Tech Tragedy, and the 10 year aniversary of the Columbine shooting.... why are our kids doing these things now?


One possible answer:

inUCvslbdkI


You may or may not agree, but at least watch it all, then post your comment.

Kinda ****ed. Well, I feel the freedoms we enjoy would be absolutely worth the few deaths that the guy says we get because of that. I don't believe that for one that is the reason. And also I don't feel that the time before we granted all those freedoms was that great...you know, no women's rights, segregation, etc.

Originally posted by Alliance
The best part about this? Its wrong.
Actually, you're wrong. Everything I stated was factually correct. If you'll notice, I never blamed ethical relativism for anything.

Actually, as you so kindly point out, ethical absolutism isn't the problem: it's being a nutjob.


It is.

They are.

His concept of morality was wrong. Moral relativism would say that we can't say that his concept of morality was wrong.
It also breeds a lack of moral standards.

However, to say that moral relativism inherently "breeds" tolerance and respect is as much crap as saying that moral absolutism inherently breeds intolerance/disrespect. Want to try me on that? Okay, let's take a look at it this way: how many ethical relativists actually tolerate/respect extremely staunch moral absolutists like Christian fundamentalists?

Horseshit and you know it. Anecdotal evidence FTW.

Well, I tolerate them. I just think they are idiots and they shouldn't force their, in my opinion bad (relative) morals on others...

And I respect any absolutist whose morals I can agree with, I might argue with him about the relativity of morals, but that doesn't imply disrespect.


Though, I absolutely agree that moral relativism doesn't have any inherent tolerance.

I disagree with Fece.

I'm sorry, but you're not allowed to agree with me. Fix your post, please.

Originally posted by FeceMan
I'm sorry, but you're not allowed to agree with me. Fix your post, please. Done.

That's better.

Apologies for more whoredom, but I require a certain download. This is an experiment in patience.

EDIT: Hah, I found out a way to beat the system. FeceMan: 1, crappy game download site: 0.

Originally posted by Alliance
But without acceptance, you will never truly be tolerant.

Hmp...sounds like something Shaky would say.