Kids raised with Religion.

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Badabing

Devil King
I did some research on Mr. Bartkowski and all of his research and conclusions have been based on Christianity. His research has been based solely on the United States and his conclusions fail to take the same outcomes in non-christian familys for granted, on top of ignoring the same results in non-US, non-christian familys.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Devil King
I did some research on Mr. Bartkowski and all of his research and conclusions have been based on Christianity. His research has been based solely on the United States and his conclusions fail to take the same outcomes in non-christian familys for granted, on top of ignoring the same results in non-US, non-christian familys.

I knew it was a pile of horse shit. Thanks for clearing that up Devil King. big grin

lil bitchiness
Well the good thing is, he is considering the limitations of his research. Then again, if he didn't he would be open to more critisism then he will be now.

Perhaps instead of saying ''religion''maybe he should specify Christianity, or better which branch.
These type of researches should, in theory take years of constant data collection, of new children and those who are growing up, in order to come up with a relevant conclusion.

Also, as Devil King points out, it is exclusively in USA, mainly with Christianity. He also does not consider socio-economic factors, and those are more often than not very important as well.

It is interesting idea and research.

lil bitchiness
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
I knew it was a pile of horse shit. Thanks for clearing that up Devil King. big grin

Why exactly is it a pile of shit? Because you disagree with Christianity?
Or do you have any more examples as to why his research has limitations, apart from ones already mentioned by Devil King and myself?

inimalist
its not a big pile

there is a lot of research along this line

it has to do with the fact that for children, churches normally offer better social support and in-groups then for other children.

Studies like these don't show the benefit of religion, but more emphasize the places where we can improve in the secular part of society

also to what devil king is saying, the lack of other religious groups is a huge problem, but there are many more minority group issues that probably affect their lives more than their social groups (though there are studies that show minority in groups are better at supporting individuals than majority ones).

The "religion is good" conclusion is probably wrong, however, things like religious people being happier or living longer is pretty consistent.

Devil King
Originally posted by Devil King
his conclusions fail to take the same outcomes in non-christian familys

I worded that incorrectly, but I'm glad everyone seems to have understood anyway.

His conclusions fail to take into consideration the same outcome in non-christian familys and fail to consider the same results in non-US and non-Christian familys.

But, to specify what I meant by all of Mr. Bartowski's research and conclusions, it isn't limited to this study, it's all of his research and conclusions. They're all based on christianity, and more specifically christianity in the United States. He's written many studies, and his conclusions never change.

lil bitchiness
His research, then can only be applied to USA today. However in the scope of social research, one should search for answers on a more general scale.

Or at least specify that all research applies to certain Americans, with certain standards, certain socio-economic background, certain lifestyle and certain religion.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Why exactly is it a pile of shit? Because you disagree with Christianity?
Or do you have any more examples as to why his research has limitations, apart from ones already mentioned by Devil King and myself?

I was raised a Christian, and my father was a minister.

Atlantis001
Originally posted by inimalist
The "religion is good" conclusion is probably wrong, however, things like religious people being happier or living longer is pretty consistent.

I agree it has to do with social support and this kind of thing, but the research can be easily extrapolated arriving at more conclusions(precipitated ones) than it should, like "Religion is Good".

It is interesting anyway that the very title of the article holds the extrapolated conclusion in it.

Goddess Kali
Social and Economic conditions play a huge role in this. As well as promoting a goal-orientation for children, which helps improve thier confidense and self control.


So what ?


Children who are involved in Arts and Sports also are in far more control and better behaved than children who go to school, then go home and do nothing all day.


It's the supportive environment and discipline that makes these children behave better, not the fundamentals of the religion itself.


Also, much of that research is one-sided.


Bullying DOES occur in Christian private schools just as often as it does in Public schools:


http://www.rainbowsashmovement.com/New_Web_Site_12_18_04/Stories/People_of_God.htm


http://www.tcnj.edu/~miller8/Bullying.htm





I strongly beleive that it is the Disciple that matters, and not what religion you are.


If a religious family can promote discipline for thier children and help them become socially able, than I think that is wondorful.

However, a non-religious family can do just as well.



*I went to Catholic school all my life, and I was bullied in every grade. The conclusion that a religion is what makes a person good, smart, etc. is a false one.

Badabing
Good points everybody. As we see everyday, Religion can be perverted into a terrible thing. I think most Religion can be positive but I don't consider it defining for raising children. For me, it gave me boundaries and helped me to grasp the differences between right and wrong. I can honestly say that having a very supportive family, great friends, strong girlfriends and Religion all helped me to be a better person.

I would also like to add that I was brought up Catholic and went to a Catholic school for 12 years. Not once were we taught that all gays, Muslims, Buddhists, un-Baptized, etc were all going to Hell. We were taught tolerance for everybody.

Goddess Kali
Originally posted by Badabing
I would also like to add that I was brought up Catholic and went to a Catholic school for 12 years. Not once were we taught that all gays, Muslims, Buddhists, un-Baptized, etc were all going to Hell. We were taught tolerance for everybody.


I was not taught in Catholic School that Gays were going to Hell.


Elementary School ignored the subject of Homosexuality entirely. Homosexual slanders such as "f@g" and "d*ke" were used a lot by Catholic kids who bullied other kids, including myself. Instead of arguing that there was nothing wrong with homosexuality, the teachers and administration argued "Do not call people Gay. That is a Bad Word.



My Catholic High School was different. We were taught to respect the religious, cultural, racial, and sexual differences of other people.


However, homophobia among students was still high as ever, and my only point was that bullying exists equally in private AND public schools.

Boris
Religion is bad for children, then again.. it's bad for everyone.

Darth Macabre
Meh, I think its generalizing a bit, but whatever. I grew up without religion and I'm fine.

debbiejo
I grew up raised very religious. It warped my view on life and tragedies. I believe it's much better to study all beliefs then make a choice on the bigger picture.

Alliance
Originally posted by Devil King
I did some research on Mr. Bartkowski and all of his research and conclusions have been based on Christianity. His research has been based solely on the United States and his conclusions fail to take the same outcomes in non-christian familys for granted, on top of ignoring the same results in non-US, non-christian familys.

Thanks for saving me the effort smile

Devil King
Originally posted by Goddess Kali
*I went to Catholic school all my life, and I was bullied in every grade.

Were you bullied for your sexuality?

Originally posted by Alliance
Thanks for saving me the effort smile

You're welcome.

Alliance
Or were you bullied because every kid was bullied...except for the bullies of course...

Strangelove
I was raised with religion, but I turned out fine anyway smile

Alliance
I was raised with religion but without god, does that make any sense?

debbiejo
You mean you just went through the motions, the rituals?

Alliance
sort of...
not really? praying was never essential.

Badabing
Originally posted by Strangelove
I was raised with religion, but I turned out fine anyway smile laughing durfist


I guess that I was one of the lucky people where my family, friends and Religion were all positive roles in my childhood. sad


I appreciate all the well thought posts everybody.....except for Boris' post.
Originally posted by Boris
Religion is bad for children, then again.. it's bad for everyone.
no expression

Nellinator
He's a troll.

ADarksideJedi
It depends on the kids and the parents.I was raise in a religionish cult up till I was twelve and we got kicked out.My parents were very strict and my two oldest brothers rebel againist them for that.
So if you are overly Religish on your kids they will rebel.JM

BackFire
Of course kids raised with religion are more well behaved.

They think that if they aren't well behaved, they're going to be ass raped by a ****ing demon for all eternity when they die.

Atlantis001
Originally posted by Alliance
I was raised with religion but without god, does that make any sense?

Yes, because God is not religion, and religion can be mistaken about God.

ADarksideJedi
Originally posted by BackFire
Of course kids raised with religion are more well behaved.

They think that if they aren't well behaved, they're going to be ass raped by a ****ing demon for all eternity when they die.

That is being overly religish not all family is like that at all.jm smile

Devil King
Originally posted by ADarksideJedi
It depends on the kids and the parents.I was raise in a religionish cult up till I was twelve and we got kicked out.My parents were very strict and my two oldest brothers rebel againist them for that.
So if you are overly Religish on your kids they will rebel.JM

Now you were raised in a cult?

On top of that, how off the mark do you have to be to get kicked out of a cult?

So, if you were raisened in an extreme religionish cult, and you think being overtly religionish with your kids will clause them to rebel, why are you being so religionish?DK

Adam_PoE
I am curious as to how:

Religious and Christian are defined for the purposes of this study.

The methodology used which allows being raised in a religious household to be isolated and identified as the cause of good behavior.

Nellinator
It isn't isolated as the cause. The study isn't of that scope. It is simply showing a correlation. A high correlation usually leads to more specific studies.

Adam_PoE
Originally posted by Nellinator
It isn't isolated as the cause. The study isn't of that scope. It is simply showing a correlation. A high correlation usually leads to more specific studies.

Hooray for hollow victories!

Badabing
Originally posted by BackFire
Of course kids raised with religion are more well behaved.

They think that if they aren't well behaved, they're going to be ass raped by a ****ing demon for all eternity when they die. laughing

Jim Reaper
Originally posted by Goddess Kali


It's the supportive environment and discipline that makes these children behave better, not the fundamentals of the religion itself.



That is key.

ADarksideJedi
Originally posted by Devil King
Now you were raised in a cult?

On top of that, how off the mark do you have to be to get kicked out of a cult?

So, if you were raisened in an extreme religionish cult, and you think being overtly religionish with your kids will clause them to rebel, why are you being so religionish?DK

Yes I was raise in a cult.If you want to look it up online it is under The people of Hope. Don't have a link but I am sure that name will pop up being that I had looked it up before.
We were thrown out because my dad wanted to take a break from it and the leaders there said that we had to leave because no one takes breaks from this cult.
My brothers who got the worst of this cult then me had rebel in different ways towards my parents because of it.I think forcing your child to do certain things well cause them to rebel when they are older because of being force to do these things they don't want to do.
Do you get what I am trying to say?Link. http://members.tripod.com/~PeopleofHope/index.htm

Goddess Kali
You were part of a cult ?

ADarksideJedi
Yes till I was twelve.Go to the link I have on my last post and check it out it is quite interesting.jm

Goddess Kali
Why ?


How was that experience ?

ADarksideJedi
Uh let's see.Strange I guess.I am going to write a book on it at some point.For what I remember is that we all live in the same neighood with other members did everything together including going to mass going to geatherings and going to camp and school.
Also following some rules such as woman not be able to wear jeans but had to wear skirts.Believe it or not the first time I wore jeans was when I was twelve and we were out of the cult.
Strange also rock music was not allowed to be listen too.And certain toys were not alowed to be played with such as barbies it was pretty mess up.jm

Shelbert Lemon
I was raised with religion.. different ones in fact. It depened on who offered bus services for Sunday School where ever we were living at the time so my mom could sleep in on Sunday mornings. I dont have one i follow but I tend to lead more towards spirituality then religion persay. SO Ive raised my girls to be more spiritual and in the mean time they are learning about different religions through myself, Girl Scouts, and various friends and family.

ADarksideJedi
How can you learn to be spirituality without any regilion?jm

inimalist
Originally posted by ADarksideJedi
How can you learn to be spirituality without any regilion?jm

the universe doesn't need a god to be magical and mysterious

ADarksideJedi
Being that God had made the earth then yes it does.JM

RocasAtoll
Originally posted by ADarksideJedi
Being that God had made the earth then yes it does.JM

That is opinion, not fact.

Adam_PoE
Jackie Malfoy is an example of why children should not be raised with religion.

Devil King
Originally posted by ADarksideJedi
Yes I was raise in a cult.

Your parents are ****ed up. That's all there is to it. Especially if the chronology of your 26 years is as accurate as you'd have us believe.

Originally posted by ADarksideJedi
We were thrown out because my dad wanted to take a break from it and the leaders there said that we had to leave because no one takes breaks from this cult.

Well, for once I agree with the cult leaders. How the hell do you take a break from a cult? Is that like going on vacation from your religionish beliefs? Either you're lying or your dad shares in your learning disability.


Originally posted by ADarksideJedi
My brothers who got the worst of this cult then me had rebel in different ways towards my parents because of it.I think forcing your child to do certain things well cause them to rebel when they are older because of being force to do these things they don't want to do.

Your profile says you're the oldest of the six children in your family, why did you not suffer the brunt of these effects?


Originally posted by ADarksideJedi
Do you get what I am trying to say?

Sadly, I have learned to dechipher all of your spew.

inimalist
Originally posted by ADarksideJedi
Being that God had made the earth then yes it does.JM

how is an answer to the universe that fits in one sentence magical?

seems rather limited... or boring

ADarksideJedi
Boring yes.It is a fact through that God did make the world.Reather you chose to believe that is up to you.jm

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by ADarksideJedi
Boring yes.It is a fact through that God did make the world.Reather you chose to believe that is up to you.jm

What did god make the Earth from?

ADarksideJedi
His own hands!Read the bible in the beginning it says so.Or look up the bible online.jm

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by ADarksideJedi
His own hands!Read the bible in the beginning it says so.Or look up the bible online.jm

That is not what I mean. What material did god make the Earth from? After all god made Adam from the dirt.

ADarksideJedi
I know that.Is this some sort of test?I got to go to bed.Night!jm

Badabing
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
What did god make the Earth from? That's a good question. Now I'm very curious so I'll have to ask around.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Badabing
That's a good question. Now I'm very curious so I'll have to ask around.

Really? confused

leonheartmm
this is odd, doesnt look like relevant research as one of the basics of any suc sociological study is the fact that ur able to isolate independant variable. there are MANY MANY confounding variables here, for instance, the generally better {or often times much better} economic condition of relegious people in america, the lack of the ability to actually test freedom of thought in the tested children{after all a trained lion looks far better than a wild one , well groomed, obedient, non menacing, however that isnt representative of its mental health , just like old british children of prestigious families LOOKED like they were doing better}, also blaming it on family CONFLICT isnt done enough, making the case that its the prevailing ideals of older and ignorant parents that are the problem, not the child{after all u CUD say that the slaves who followed their masters were better off overall as opposed to those who were rebellious, yet ur propogating a completely wrong attitude by making the statement and not blaming the underlying cause, SLAVERY}. also the study only focuses on america, a very wrong and rather persistant approach and psychology and sociology.

overall raising children with relegion is one of the worst crimes one can commit on the child.

leonheartmm
actually a more interesting question is why did god feal a NEED to create earth or infact anything else as he is omnipotent, whole and does not need anything. creating sumthin shows the DESIRE to create sumthing, and desire can only exists if your lacking or NEEDING sumthing u dont posess.

ADarksideJedi
Originally posted by leonheartmm
this is odd, doesnt look like relevant research as one of the basics of any suc sociological study is the fact that ur able to isolate independant variable. there are MANY MANY confounding variables here, for instance, the generally better {or often times much better} economic condition of relegious people in america, the lack of the ability to actually test freedom of thought in the tested children{after all a trained lion looks far better than a wild one , well groomed, obedient, non menacing, however that isnt representative of its mental health , just like old british children of prestigious families LOOKED like they were doing better}, also blaming it on family CONFLICT isnt done enough, making the case that its the prevailing ideals of older and ignorant parents that are the problem, not the child{after all u CUD say that the slaves who followed their masters were better off overall as opposed to those who were rebellious, yet ur propogating a completely wrong attitude by making the statement and not blaming the underlying cause, SLAVERY}. also the study only focuses on america, a very wrong and rather persistant approach and psychology and sociology.

overall raising children with relegion is one of the worst crimes one can commit on the child.

How is it the worst crime?You are saving the child from morals and sin.JM

inimalist
Originally posted by leonheartmm
this is odd, doesnt look like relevant research as one of the basics of any suc sociological study is the fact that ur able to isolate independant variable. there are MANY MANY confounding variables here, for instance, the generally better {or often times much better} economic condition of relegious people in america, the lack of the ability to actually test freedom of thought in the tested children{after all a trained lion looks far better than a wild one , well groomed, obedient, non menacing, however that isnt representative of its mental health , just like old british children of prestigious families LOOKED like they were doing better}, also blaming it on family CONFLICT isnt done enough, making the case that its the prevailing ideals of older and ignorant parents that are the problem, not the child{after all u CUD say that the slaves who followed their masters were better off overall as opposed to those who were rebellious, yet ur propogating a completely wrong attitude by making the statement and not blaming the underlying cause, SLAVERY}. also the study only focuses on america, a very wrong and rather persistant approach and psychology and sociology.

overall raising children with relegion is one of the worst crimes one can commit on the child.

Man, its nice to be skeptical about research, but you clearly just read the title of the article and then reacted emotionally, seeing as you say that teaching children religion is one of the worst crimes...

Let me explain to you why this is a valid experiment that cannot be used to draw any cause/effect type relationships: CORELATIONAL DATA.

Honestly, it is nice you guys all want to bash religion when there are some advantages to be found, but like, come on.

xmarksthespot
The same social stimulus can be provided without the need for religion.

Personally, while I think parents should be free to share their religion, their values and beliefs, with their children; I don't particularly support the dogmatic imposition of specific values and beliefs in children. There's probably a contradiction in that thought somewhere due to my less than spectacular articulation of it.

inimalist
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
The same social stimulus can be provided without the need for religion.

Personally, while I think parents should be free to share their religion, their values and beliefs, with their children; I don't particularly support the dogmatic imposition of specific values and beliefs in children. There's probably a contradiction in that thought somewhere due to my less than spectacular articulation of it.

Agreed

there are lots of real delicate issues around what rights a parent really has with regard to their child.

While I am staunchly against religious belief, it works for some, and some even desire it.

Maybe the problem isn't so much that the parents are forcing a child down one ideological road, but more than all of the others are closed to the child long before they can rationally choose them...

But then, how many religious people grow up to be bitter atheists?

ADarksideJedi
It is the kid's choice to grow up with whatever religion.A parent know they did right if that child grows up loving God and goes on with the same religion as they believe in.
If the child does not then the parents must had not done a great job with gettting them to mass or praying.There is a difference however with pushing kids and not pushing them.JM

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