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This is the Imperial Remnant as of the Hand of Thrawn duology, where Grand Admiral Pellaeon confirms that the Empire's remaining Star Destroyer count is at two hundred, versus the Infinite Empire, led by Revan, Dark Lord of the Sith. I am not a KotoR buff, but I assume that the Infinite Empire (before Revan's defeat) possessed more than two hundred ships.

I understand that the Empire's technology is superior to Revan's, but I believe that Revan's sheer numbers and Force powers might even off the playing field. But, just to make sure, we'll toss in Grand Admiral Thrawn's clone as the tactical genius for the Empire.

There is no Star Forge or superweapon other than their individual fleets. Who wins?

If the Empire is still far advantageous, we'll get rid of Thrawn]

Pellaeon is not a Thrawn but he's sporting a highly superior, if outnumbered, fleet.

I'd say one ISD is enough to take down several of Revan's best ships and we have 199 others...

Escape is right, Revan is the superior tactician here and he has unlimited numbers under his belt. His infinite empire wins.

Of course it does.

The Infinite Empire of the Rakata is a complete unknown in terms of numbers and tech.

If Escape means Revan's Sith Empire well...

Assuming Revan ISN'T familiar with Imperial tech or tactics, then 200 ISD's in several battle groups, say about 20 each, with 72 TIE's per ship, along with numerous other support frigates and vessels should be able to penetrate shielding tech. 4000 years behind Imperial weapons.

A War is not won by just technology but exceptional tactics and plans matter more.

Revan's tactics are unparalled in Star Wars history apart from Thrawn. He can win in this war.

Remember that it was only because of the actions of one man that the technologically superior Mandalorian military had to suffer a humiliating defeat and that man was Revan. He does has the element of surprise.

The Mandalorians dealt some heavy casualties to Revan before he won, and that was without Imperial technology, which to be frank, surpasses like everything except Yuuzhan Vong shit.

200 ISD's can take out at least 10 times their number of Leviathan-class vessels, and it's pretty hard to compare TIE Fighters, Interceptors and Defenders against Sith fighters. Suffice to say, the TIE's are likely better.

Pellaeon by this time is very experienced, having learned from Thrawn and Daala, and both Revan and he are complete unknowns to one another. It's likely Revan will simply withdraw into his empire (if he's allowed in this case) to study the Imperial ships and movements while they battle small groups of Revan's fleet.

Tell that to Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan; both of them possessed better militaries and tactics, but they lost due to an overwhelming numbers (Germany) and the atomic bomb (Japan). If the technology in question is much more potent, tactics can become irrelevant.

For example, if you put a Super Star Destroyer under Pellaeon's command and a regular Star Destroyer under Revan's - even though Revan is the better commander - he'll get his ass kicked. Simply because the disparity between the firepower and technology.



No, no, no, no, no, no, no, and... no. Revan's tactics are not withour peer (even if we exclude Thrawn). We've got Admiral Ackbar, Garm Bel Iblis, and Grand Admiral Zaarin all rival - and likely outstrip - Revan in tactics.

But I will say that, in terms of strategic ability, Revan is a fair bit ahead of Pellaeon.



Imperial technology >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Revan's and the Mandalorians. I made this thread to see if Revan's superior tactics and numbers could overwhelm the Imperials' vastly superior technology. If Revan's empire has too many advantages, we'll set Thrawn into the fray to even it out. Otherwise, we'll keep it with Pellaeon in charge.

Oh, and Tangible, the Empire's technolgy is superior to the Vong's. Their whole military is, in just about all aspects.

Damn straight it does.

Luke said it best when he wished they had the Galaxy Gun and he knew they'd kick the crap out of the Vong.

Originally posted by Gideon
Oh, and Tangible, the Empire's technolgy is superior to the Vong's. Their whole military is, in just about all aspects. Yeah, I figured that even while I was typing.

First of all, Major Grodin Pierce was not Thrawn's Clone. He was an elite stormtrooper with some of Thrawn's DNA tossed in to make him really smart. He wasn't nearly as good as Thrawn though. However he should be at least as good as Revan.

Well, the Imperials should take this. I know it seems like I always side with the Imperials (and pretty much always do to tell the truth) but they definately have many advantages over the Rakata.

The biggest thing is the Imperials ridiculously superior firepower. An Imperial turbolaser is capable of firing with equicalent firepower three times faster than any ship prior to the Imperial takeover of the galaxy. The Imperial Ships also has FAR more guns and far superior shielding and armor. Basically a single ISD would rape a dozen IE ships in combat. The Imperials are outnumbered but not by nearly enough to mean their downfall.


BTW, an ISD has as much as 150 times more firepower then a Leviathan depending on what sources you go by.

I could have swore that Pierce was Thrawn's clone; he had the tactical genius to make everyone - including Pellaeon and Moff Disra - believe that victory against the New Republic was possible, even then.

He was a combination of a stormtrooper and Thrawn. He was really, really good because of the Thrawn half of him but he wasn't as good as the real thing. There was a true clone of Thrawn but it was killed when Luke and Mara destroyed what I believe was the Hand of Thrawn.

Ok then, I would say that this could go either way, though I would probably, if forced to go one way or another, have to settle on Revan due to superior experience and numbers.

And secondly, Gideon, to claim that Germany had superior weapons and tactics and lost only thanks to superior numbers, to be quite frank, is inaccurate and ignorant. The Western Allies fought Germany and it's puppets at a large numerical disadvantage, but managed to hold on thanks to better tech, training, and, after 1940, doctrine. See Colmar Pocket, Aachen, El Alamein, Sicily, East Africa, and anything else I forgot.

Hell, even the Soviets kicked Germany's a*s more then a few times with superior tactics (see the seige of Budapest, Operation Bagration, the push into Romania, and others).

Ultimately, Germany was indeed outsmarted fair and square by the Allies, rather than bulled over by sheer manpower (though that did play a factor in Russia, I will admit)

Anyway, given Revan's Sith Empire's strength, I would have to say that he would have to fight a war of attrition against the Remanant, and slowly whittle down Pellaeon's numbers. And given his strategic and tactical expertise, he just might pull it off, provided he has the manpower to replace losses.

Pellaeon has the advantage of technology, but he is fighting in uncharted terrain, against a numerically superior foe, with a far superior commander than himself. He might pull it off if he can find out how to find his way around the SF's weakness and get a hight enough kill ratio, but I am unsure he will be able to achieve one, nevermind both.

To be fair, the allied victory had less to do with outmaneuvering and more to do with Hitler going insane and giving ridiculous orders (Germany entering Stalingrad). When we look at pure miltary tactics, Germany was head and shoulders above the rest of the world.

On topic: Imps have far better tech, and even the SW database supports that Revan's captiol ships pale in comparison to latter ISDs.

Off topic:



Actually, it's not. German troops were far more blooded and seasoned then their allied counterparts and had training and discipline on average far superior to their enemies. Their weapons ranked among the most advanced during the beginning of the war, and Germans themselves won the majority of their battles while heavily outnumbered. At the height of their momentum, the Wehrmacht numbered little over 12 million (Including support and rear guard), and about three million of these launched into Russia with enough momentum (and superior tactics and training) to steamroll through the Soviet western guard (Who had almost four times the number of armor as the invading Germans and the most advanced armor in the world at the time) and hold Stalingrad in a 900+ day siege. And even then when the tide turned, it took the Soviets almost three years to push the Germans back.

All this while the Germans were fighting on multiple fronts, such as Italy, Crete, North Africa, the hedges of France, etc. A country little bigger than the state of Montana fielded no more than 8-12 million troops total decimated Poland in three weeks; France in perhaps a month or so, etc.



Large numerical disadvantage? How so? The allies combined had division numbers on par with or surpassing the Germans in the West since most of the manpower was being thrown into the East. Division strength of the Soviets alone was never under 190 divisions since 1939. During the Allies' initial push back into Europe, the ratio of manpower was nearly two to one in favor of the Allies, not counting the superior numbers of ratio of armor (Which was nearly four to one in favor of the Allies), and air support which was nearly nine to one in favor of the Allies. From 1941 -1943, 67% to 75% of division strength was on the east holding off the Russians. This leaves precious little for the Allies to have to contend with in the West since Axis forces were spread out occupying many countries. Because of the overwhelming numerical majority in the East and the loss of manpower, generals, and resources, any concentrated effort in other fronts died before it could continue. And even then the Battle of the Bulge was perhaps one of the most impressive counterattacks considering the circumstances of the German army at that time.

"Managing to hold on" is a bit of a misleading claim, considering that the American troops had fresh resources and manpower streaming in daily while the Axis had been fighting one of the bloodiest conflicts in human history for over three years with over half of its available strength. As for training, I've never seen anything to indicate that the American soldier was superior to the Wehrmacht soldier. For starters, German troops had been in combat for years at this point, with more practical experience in addition to a martial lifestyle and severe discipline. Their gear was smartly made, though the Americans did have superior weapons in the Garand, the Thompson, and the BAR.



Where's the superior tactics/no numerical majority here? The Allies had four armored divisions to the German's one, and matched them nearly in manpower. This gives the clear numerical and firepower advantage to the Allies.



All I remember about Aachen was the SS being there. I've never thought of the SS as an elite troop unit, despite what Himmler loved to say. Unfortunately, their presence as a part of the armed forces only grew as the war raged on.



Again, numerical superiority on behalf of the Allies. Rommel, for all his uberness, couldn't pull much together with half his forces for the first battle being the ineffective Italians and half his tanks being crap. During the second battle, the Allies nearly outnumbered Axis troops and armor two to one!



As for Sicily, this is ridiculous. Less than 50k of the troops at Sicily were Wehrmacht; versus the 160k Allied troops. And this isn't even figuring in support and armor for the Allies. True, it was one hell of a battle, but no real evidence of Allies crunching German troops without numerical superiority.



You're glossing here; at each battle you've noted above, Allies had numerical superiority and support, as well as tanks and big guns. The smaller German units they fought still managed to keep them at bay until the bitter end while committing over half of their forces to the vastly larger Soviet monster on the East, again barely giving ground there as well. If there's anything I can say good about the Nazi army of WWII, it's that the German war machine was inevitably defeated by overstretching its bounds and being beaten into submission by superior numbers, but their tactics and effectiveness are second to none. This is evident enough, despite what you may say.

Tortoise Herder, Soviets beat the crap out of Germany because of superior tactics? During 1941~1942, the average casualty rate for a full Soviet division was 40~60%. The only reason they won was because they had more meatbags to put into the field than the Germans. Even at 1945, when most of Germany was in crumbling ruins and a hoard of Volkstrum troops were used -mostly armed with only a Panzerfaust or a volkstrum rifle- the Soviets were taking 10% casualties. I don't call that superior tactics.

Germans had superior tech.



Lets see, the Germans had K43s, much better than the Garand. Easier to reload and maintain.

MP40s, and STG44s are more than a match for a Thompson. The Thompson had low muzzle velocity with pretty much eliminated its usefulness in jungles, forests, etc...

An MG42 is like a BAR, only a machinegun. Its light weight, not to mention a high rate of fire, (1200~1800). The barrel could be changed in less than ten seconds by a experienced hand.

I won't even get into the Panthers, the later models of Panzer IVs, Tiger, King Tigers, Me 262s and the bunch.

Yes, but they didn't have these in production until 1944, and even then the total amount of K43s in the hands of German troops paled in comparison to the number of Garands in the hands of Americans. I could argue that the Sturmgewehr 44 is the most advanced gun on the field, but it was put out in such low numbers and it was still remarkably vulnerable to abuse that its impact on the war effort was little.



True. I was thinking more in line of how the STG44s were rare in production and how the MP40s were prone to clip jams since most soldiers ended up using the magazine as a handle in combat, and the single feed magazine tended to give people fits. Thompsons certainly have the better firing rate of the three though.



Yeah, except that the MG42 required a two to three man team to properly use, and the high rate of fire, while sometimes desirable, caused a huge ammunition problem. While it could be used in a defensive position with plenty of ammo as a virtual tour-stopper, set up and repositioning was more of a pain then with the one-man BAR.

Still, you're right, I do agree it was the better of the two weapons technologically. I'm not quite sure why I included it so vaguely without elaborating on why.

Again, the reason I brought up several of the points, including El Alamein, is because they one them decisively, inflicting far greater damage then they took. And, as for Sicily, you should have seen the makeup of the "Italian" and "Vichy French" armies of that point in the war. To be quite blunt, Hitler thought the Italians were going to revolt at the drop of a hat because the only thing they agreed with the Italian Moose at this point was that Dalmatria and Ethiopia were good to have, and not much else, so he had to be careful not to antagonize them more then was necessary.

The Vichy French forces he feared might be a hotbed of Free French support, as they might join up to get training and equipment while planning to go over at a later date.

And, in the paranoid mind of the Fuher, these were both unacceptable risks. So, he drained men previously meant for the German armies, men who had ALREADY BEEN TRAINED, and "persuaded" them to enter into either the Italian or Vichy French armies. There, their moral dropped because of the mindlessly stupid chauvinism that Il Dunce's Political officers showed, and saw them force "Italianisation" on what was by then the majority of their Armed Forces.

Yes, the so-called "equipment" in the Vichy French and Italian armies were crap, yes, and far inferior to German tech, but these troops were, the vast majority of the time, some of the ones who completed their training in full. If the German army really was that good, wouldn't these men overcome the disadvantages to achieve victory? Then why did both behave so poorly even after the introduction of the Germans?

And, to counter Darth Leed's "we have planes and tanks and automatic rifles too, the Amies will not Berlintinople." Argument, have you ever SEEN the production rates of the weapons you mention? The only four that you mention that was produced in truly large numbers, and only two that were build in numbers comparable to those of their opponents. One was the MG-42, and it was indeed good, but it had suffered losses and captures, and the later models of the Panzer IV were good, but were still for the most part inferior to comparable equipment that the Western Allies and Russians were fielding by the time they came out.

The rest were rather low priority or rarer then their WA comparisons. You mention that the STG44, MP40, and G43 were "more than a match" for their comparisons (the former two would be the Thompson , and the Latter would be the Garand.) Let me just say that to say this is debatable is to understate the matter. And plus, even IF the G43 WAS better then the Garand, you seem to fail to notice that the G43 had ONLY 400,000 BUILT! That is, say, about A FRACTION of Garand production. And it gets BETTER. Many G43s made were never used by the Axis, but fell to the Western Allies and were used by them!

As for the MP40 and STG44, the combined total of them were both outproduced by the Thompson.

As for the "Big Cats," have you EVER noticed exactly how small of a percentage they were of German armor at their time, nevermind throughout the war? They were hot commodities because there were so few. The reason there are so many "Tiger Aces" is because the supply-demand problem forced them to hand them out to ONLY the German tankers who were already aces. see Michael Wittman, who fought a good chunk of his career in a PZIV and a Stug.

And that is without delving into the technical problems and the fact that they simply could not stand up to air support.

And the Me 262's literally caused me to laugh. Seriously. German aircraft jet research was not in it's infancy, but it was not terribly far along, either. They built a grand total of 1,430+ of these things, and they were hardly used. They were good where they showed up, but that was relatively rare.

The simple fact remains that, in spite of the romantic view of German WWII "superweapons" most German pilots were still using the aged Bf-109 or, if they were lucky, the Fw-190, most German tankers were using some form of the PZIV, which was becoming more obsolete as time went on, and most German infantrymen had only the Kar 98k, which was slower, had a smaller magazine, and had less stopping power then the M1 and Lee-Enfield, which were the two main weapons the Western Allies had in the war at this period, with the minor allies being equipped with them and other British-American equipment.
And you also fail to mention that I am not bothering trying to exonerate the Soviets, as they did largely win the war through attrition, but I am mainly exonerating the poor image of the Western Allies.

And Also, to Janus, El Alamein did see cases were outnumbered Western Allied units fought against superior numbers with distinction. See the Northern part of Operation Supercharge, where the Aussies go up against the "Italian" (read German in Italian uniforms) Tireste and Bersa Divisions aided by elements of the German 15th Panzer and 90th Light. They were on the offensive in defensible terrain against a foe that outnumbered them, and though they failed to achieve complete victory, they maimed the Axis badly and forced Rommel to divert more than some of his men in the center North to prevent a breakthrough.

And even before El Alamein, you forget another battle Rommel coulden't ace "In spite of his Uberness." Have you ever, in all your years, heard of Bir Hakeim?

Bir Hakeim was a small fort in North Africa, and you can still find it and it's village today if you look closely enough. It detail a story that few know, and that many overlook.

In May of 1942, Rommel had sent the Allies packing again after Gazala, and was chasing them down, with dreams of pyramids in his sleep. however, to continue racing the withdrawing Allies, he had to overcome a little fort he found on the way called Bir Hakeim. It was manned by soldiers of the Free French, and they refused multiple calls to surrender, and so Rommel attacked them with the full might of the forward elements of the Afrika Korps.

The result was shocking. To the suprise of all, the French garrison survived the ferocious onslaught and fought back for 16 days, half a month's equivalent time, inflicting 3-1 losses on the "Uber Rommel", destroying 49 planes, 51 Tanks, and over 100 other vehicles before withdrawing intact in the face of overwhelming enemy forces.

This battle is said to have been a contributing factor in delaying Rommel until the Allies could get ready to hand him his "Waterloo" at a small, barely known railroad junction somewhere in Egypt.

Another factor you claim is that Husky is invalid because "only" 50k Germans were there. This is false, as, like I mentioned, most of the professional "Italian" army were in fact Germans, with most of the Italians in the Axis being diehard Blackshirt units raised ad hoc. So it is valid.

And, as for Colmar, look at the pre-battle OOB. The French First army was fighting the German Nineteenth, and, in spite of the assistence of the US 21st, they were still outnumbered by the German defenders. Combine the fact that this was on the OFFENSIVE, IN THE WINTER, WITH MOST OF THE FRENCH BEING NOOBS due to the unbelievably stupid, racist, and counterproductive policy of "whitening" the French front lines adopted by the French HQ, and it was no picnic.

Yes, it is true that more Allied forces eventually joined the assault, and that they eventually gained a numerical superiority, but that was AFTER the Allies had pretty much decided the outcome of the battle, and it was how bad the end result was going to be for the Axis (and it WAS pretty bad, with the 19th army pretty much evaporating.) So, in other words, the deciding part of it, when the outcome of the battle was decided, was when the Allies were outnumbered by the Germans.

And you cannot remember much about Aachen. Well, let me refresh your memory with this excerpt from Halten bis zum letzten Mann
Kampf um Aachen im Herbst 1944 (yes, I can translate some foreign texts on this old girl, but I will save you the trouble):

Aachen was a part of the Westwall. The city nestled within two belts of bunkers and obstacles, one to the west of the city and the other to the east. The Aachen sector was, in fact, one of the most heavily fortified portions of the Westwall. Aachen itself, however, was unfortified. It had little to commend it as a battleground from either the German or the American perspective. As a defensive position, Aachen was flawed by the fact that it lay in a depression with higher ground on all sides. From the American point of view, Aachen offered little as an objective. The existing road net made it perfectly feasible to bypass the urban area altogether. Although Aachen was home to some industry and coal mining, it was not vital to the German war effort. Moreover, heavy Allied air raids had already damaged or destroyed half of its buildings. In light of what eventually occurred, it seems ironic that on the day VII Corps entered Germany, the Americans intended to bypass Aachen, and the German commander within Aachen intended, apparently, to yield the city without a fight.

Adolf Hitler had other ideas. He had no intention of yielding a German city to the enemy.

Fortunately for the Americans, the defense of downtown Aachen was also a secondary priority for the Germans, who were more concerned with eliminating the penetrations of the Westwall north and south of town. The garrison of Aachen proper consisted primarily of the 246th Volksgrenadier Division, minus 4 of its 7 infantry battalions. Volksgrenadier divisions, which first appeared in the German order of battle in the autumn of 1944, were hastily constituted formations composed largely of survivors from other divisions wrecked in battle. These divisions lacked a full complement of artillery, but were abundantly provided with automatic weapons as compensation. The commander of the 246th Volksgrenadier was Colonel Gerhard Wilck. To support his infantry, Wilck had five Panzer IV medium tanks armed with high-velocity 75mm guns, and some artillery pieces ranging in caliber from 75mm to 150mm. Perhaps the most dangerous weapons in Wilck's arsenal were panzerfausts.

Wilck assumed command in Aachen on 12 October, one day before the American assault on the city began. He established his headquarters in the luxurious Hotel Quellenhof, located in the resort district on the north side of town. Yet, his force numbered only some 5,000 troops of uneven quality, exclusive of reinforcements that would become available during the fight.

ALTHOUGH HE DID NOT KNOW IT, WILCK'S FORCE OUTNUMBERED BY A RATIO OF THREE OR FOUR TO ONE THE AMERICANS WHO WOULD LAUNCH THE ATTACK ON AACHEN (emph Mine). Moreover, the two battalions of the 1st Infantry Division given the task of reducing Aachen had no experience in urban operations. At best, they had received word-of-mouth accounts of urban fighting conducted by other units, and that news was far from reassuring.

The closest that the relevant field manuals came to an urban operations doctrine was a few pages on fighting in towns and villages. They recommended enveloping the town, or avoiding it altogether.

One might argue that the Army's published doctrine was sound in general principle, but clearly the American troops assaulting Aachen would have to work out the details for themselves. One factor working in the Americans' favor was that the force given the mission was among the most experienced units in the U.S. Army. The 1st Infantry Division's 26th Infantry Regiment, commanded by Colonel John F.R. Seitz, had been in action since the invasion of North Africa in November 1942. Two of the regiment's three battalions were available for the reduction of Aachen--the 2nd, commanded by Lieutenant Colonel Derrill M. Daniel, and the 3rd, under Lieutenant Colonel John T. Corley. Expecting that the German defenses in Aachen would be oriented to the south, where American forces had been in position for a month, the commander of the 1st Infantry Division, Major General Clarence R. Huebner, directed the two assault battalions to swing around to the east and attack the city along an east-west axis. The 1106th Engineer Combat Group, consisting of two battalions, received the mission of holding the perimeter on the southern side of Aachen while the attack crossed its front.

Col. Seitz assigned to the 2/26 the mission of clearing the heart of downtown Aachen. On its right, the 3/26 was designated the main effort, its objectives being the hills on the north side of the city, Salvatorberg and Lousberg.

From 8 to 12 October, the two assault battalions worked their way up to jump-off positions east and southeast of Aachen, taking the opportunity to practice tactics and techniques of urban fighting as they advanced. By nightfall of 12 October, the 2/26 on the left had drawn up to the foot of the railroad embankment of the Aachen-Cologne railway. To its right, the 3/26 occupied its line of departure in the industrial area just east of Aachen proper.

The 2/26, given the mission of clearing the densest part of the old city, conducted a methodical, specialized urban operation. His preparations began with a reconfiguration of his battalion that integrated the combat arms at the small unit level. Each rifle company became a task force. In addition to the company's three organic rifle platoons and weapons platoon (light machine guns and 60mm mortars), Daniel added three tanks or tank destroyers, which the company then assigned down to the rifle platoons. Daniel further augmented each of the rifle companies with two 57mm antitank guns, drawn from the regimental antitank company, two bazooka teams, one flamethrower, and two heavy machine guns.

Each of the 2/26's companies was assigned a zone of advance, within which each platoon, with its accompanying tank or tank destroyer, was assigned a specific street to clear. Using the detailed maps at his disposal, Daniel set up a "measles system" in which all intersections and prominent buildings were numbered to speed up communication and ensure coordination among the battalion's elements. Offensive operations halted at nightfall along designated phase lines (major streets) to avoid the confusion and loss of observation inherent in night combat.

Logistics posed a special set of problems for the 2/26. Anticipating high expenditures of ammunition, Daniel improvised a mobile battalion ammunition dump that could keep pace with the advancing companies. To facilitate medical evacuation in the rubble-filled streets, Daniel obtained some M29 cargo carriers, known as "Weasels."

The 3/26 resumed offensive operations on 18 October.

The end came on 21 October, when elements of the 3/26 closed in on an air raid bunker south of Lousberg, unaware that it was Wilck's headquarters. Lt. Col. Corley, the battalion commander, dispatched his attached 155mm self-propelled gun to reduce the position. Before the gun could open fire, Wilck sent out a white flag in the hands of some American prisoners who were being held in the bunker. The surrender of the Aachen garrison took effect at 1205.

Nuff said about that.

And, countrary to your mentions, there were indeed battles I mentioned were the Western Allies fought against Numerically superior Axis forces and won.

East Africa, Operation Compass, Operation Torch, the battle of Southern France. All these and anything else I can remember will be added if you wish to continue this rather enjoyable debate.

And to claim that Germany was "head over shoulders above most of the world," Darth Sexy, this is true maybe for 1939-1940, but then look at the rest of the world's doctrine. The Western Allies were preparing for Trench Warfare, the Poles and Eastern-Central European Republics were likewise (see the Sudeten Fixed defenses), and for the Soviets? Two Words: Grigory Krulik, google it, you will laugh.

In such an atmosphere it is easy to see how the Blitzkreig doctrine would be indeed " head over shoulders above" the rest of the world. But then again, it is easy to be the tallest thing in the open desert.

In addition, Hitler becoming very demanding about the military did indeed aid in it's demise (the utter stupidity of trying to hold Stalingrad or the Kerch Peninsula is utter madness), but Hitler has frequently been blamed for many mishaps in the military that were indeed the fault of the German Command themselves. This is evident in cases such as the decision to concentrate disproportionate amounts of forces against Bastogne during the Bulge, as well as other mishaps that I will try to remember.

The fact remains that, to this day, people look through rose-colored glasses about the supposed quality of Nazi Germany's military power, but they fail to notice that German forces in WWII were not "Uber troops who outfought but were overrun by superior numbers." The superior numbers, though they doubtless had an effect, would have been useless without good planning, equipment, and organization.

To this day, disturbingly high numbers of people, including many staunch Anti-Fascists, believe that Germany outfought all her opponents only to succumb to overwhelming manpower. This is false. Germany did outfight many of her foes, but the Western Allies proved even in the disasterous year of 1940 that they could best the Germans in Battle but also in training, equipment, planning, and doctrine.

The Soviets adopted the same a few years later. The fact remains that the Germans were overall both outfought and outhought fair and square both in the West and the East, but the romantic view of things like Rommel leading his tanks on forlorn hopes in the desert blots out the genius of people like Montgomery, Auchenleck, Wavell, and O'Connor, who managed to tear up more than a few of Rommel's tanks, husband their resources, and eventually best Rommel in a duel of the tacticians and strategists.

The fact remains that Germany only fell to overwhelming numbers because it could not, when all is said and done, outhink and outfight it's opponents when they did NOT have overwhelming numbers. And for that they can only blame themselves for not being as smart as the Allies were in husbanding their resources carefully until it was too late.

This thread is not about who had greater tactics, technology, or forces between Germany, Russia, and the Allies.

Stay on topic.

Yes, Se7in, just making a final point. Like I said, in Remnant VS Revan's Sith, it would be a war of attrition, and I do believe that, since Revan is a far better General then Paelleon, he could come on top, not the least because the Remnant probably does not have the slightest clue where they are and because Revan can wear their force down piecemeal with the military produced by the Star Forge.

No, I understand why you all were having that debate given it's relevance, and it's good to see people actually stating facts and debating instead of just throwing around insults and claiming "Where's your source?"

However, let's at least stay on topic as to why either side would win, not whose advantage is greater.

While I agree Revan is a far better General, you can't ignore the fact that the Remnant possesses weapons that Revan could not possibly account for.

You say Paelleon and the Remnant won't know where they are, but Revan has NO idea what kind of firepower and armor he's going up against.

If we were to assume that Revan was allowed unlimited ships, even with the Empire having VASTLY SUPERIOR technology, they wouldn't be able to contend with super(unlimited) numbers, and Revan's tactics.

But who is to say that the Star Forge is impenetrable to heavy fire from ISD's?

While I once thought the Infinite Empire was nigh invincible, I can't help but shrug off the idea that Revan will be facing technology thousands of years ahead of his own, with strengths that he has NO idea how to counter.

Perhaps KotOR-era ships did not have the firepower to take down the Star Forge, which forced them to dangerously send in ships past the anti-ship field, but I strongly believe the Remnant has more than ample firepower to accomplish such.

I would have to agree with Darth Sexy. If Revan has enough manpower to replace losses, then he WILL win eventually unless Paelleon stumbles on the source to the shield and from there the Star Forge. Otherwise, he will merely succumb sooner or later.

And secondly, you mention that Revan will have no idea what firepower, armor, tactics, or tech he will be up against. This is very much valid.

However, you must understand that, unlike Paelleon bumping around uncharted space, Revan can LEARN the characteristics of the enemy.

It is highly likely that Revan's forces will indeed loose several of the starting battles. However, Revan can afford those losses, whereas the Remnant cannot. In addition, the only way Revan would learn nothing from the initial skirmishes is if there were absolutely no recordings or sources for the battle, and if no survivors managed to make their way back to base, two things I find highly unlikely.

Thus, from this and other skirmishes, he will learn a few pieces of info about his foe in most of their encounters, and he will develop either tactics or tech (this is, after all, the Star Forge, and, in spite of it being extremely old, it was successfully able to create modern equipment for the Sith), or perhaps both to counter the enemy. And if somehow a piece of Imperial equipment were to fall into Revan's hands, he would analyse the hell out of it and furhter refine his tactics and designs.

And, whereas he could replace the losses in manpower and equipment he took, Paelleon cannot.

However, whereas Revan can learn Paelleon's tactics and technology through fighting him, the only way Paelleon could find the key to Revan's power, the Star Forge and it's shield generator, is if he literally stumbled upon it.

And to do that, Paelleon and the Remnant would have to search pretty much the entire area for a hint of Revan's powerbase. And to do that he would either have to A: Split his forces, which would make them vulnerable to being picked off one by one and destroyed piecemeal through ambush, or B: Keep his entire fleet together and search together, which would take longer have a higher drain on supplies (medicinal, food, etc) and allow Revan more time to pore over his plans of action and build up his fleet.

So, overall, unless Paelleon and the Remnant fleet get lucky and stumble across Lehon and the Star Forge early, I would probably give this battle of attrition to Revan.

My history books say differently; they unanimously state that Nazi Germany -- individually -- possessed the most powerful military machine in the world at that time, outstripping the United States, Great Britain, and Soviet Russia, hence why it was able to hold its own against them all for so long.

But I'm just a hick from Kentucky, so, what do I know? I'll leave this to the fellas smarter and more capable than myself (Janus and co.).

Oh, and secondly:



...To assume that Revan has the Star Forge in his possession, when the original post clearly says otherwise, is, to be frank, "inaccurate and ignorant".

Um, actually no, Gideon. Firstly, I can agree that the Nazis did have, per capita, the most powerful military on the planet at the time. However, they were not simply defeated through trading 5 men to kill one, as several people claim. In many cases, the Allies, especially the Western Allies, did indeed outfight and outthink superior German forces. I have stated this many times. To claim that the Germans weapons, doctrine, and leaders is false, as I said. They could easily defeat in isolation any one of their foes, but they could not, because the Allies were a group of nations joined together by a common threat. And within that group, the Western Allies were a group consisting of the (mostly) democratic nations of Western Europe and their colonies that all had individual Armed Forces but more or less conducted operations under one command.

And also, you said that, opposing Paelleon, is the "Infinite Empire commanded by Revan" more or less.

Now, the Infinite Empire is Rakatan, and we know little about it. However, from your inclusion of Revan, we believed that you were talking about the Sith under Revan. However, whichever one it is does not make much difference in this respect in the fact that THEY BOTH HAD THE STAR FORGE!

So, my thoughts that Revan would have the Star Forge are not inaccurate and ignorant, but are a perfectly rational conclusion.

But your refutation, on the other hand, is both.

So Gideon, which is it? Did you think that Revan created the Star Forge (which he did not)? Or are you ignorant as to the connotations of your post? I await a response.

To quote myself from the original post:

OK then, I stand corrected, and apologize. I was caught up in the big debate you see earlier, so thank you for the correction.

So, Revan has to be more careful with his men and use hit-and-run, but I do think he can take this, if he can minimize his losses in comparison to Paelleon.

Perhaps. Given the tactical disparity between Revan and Pellaeon; but the Galactic Empire's technology and weaponry is lightyears upon lightyears ahead of anything in Revan's arsenal.

Originally posted by Tortoise Herder
However, you must understand that, unlike Paelleon bumping around uncharted space, Revan can LEARN the characteristics of the enemy.

Why do agree that Revan probably is a greater tactician than Pellaeon and i also belive that he would eventually win the battle.

But I do feel you are underestimating Pellaeon here. He is also great tactician and has had more experience in space combat than Revan. (galactic civil war, thrawn crisis,vong war to name a few) And don't forget that he was second in command of the remnant to Thrawn who is arguably the greatest military tactician ever. And Pellaeon did learn alot under him.

Once again im not stating that Pellaeon>Revan in tactics (personally i say they are closer than people are suggesting but i still say revan is better) but by no means is he a poor/unintelligent commander. I thin the outcome still is a victory for Revan but i think he will lose more ships than it sounds like you are suggesting and remant does stand about a 50%ish chance of winning due to superior technology.

I remember it being said that in some battles that Revan's forces would lose/sacrifice 10 republic soldiers per 1 mandalorian in order to gain the victory. I think this space battle would be something like that . Revan might lose 2-3 per every ISD that the remnant loses. It all comes down to the numbers game because eventually quantity beats quality. I would go with infinite fleet in the end.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Escape is right, Revan is the superior tactician here and he has unlimited numbers under his belt. His infinite empire wins.

My knowledge of WWII, unlike SW, is pretty advanced (I think), and Herd is right. At certain battle and campaigns, such a Patton' campaign in North Africa, the allies were able to outmaneuver the Nazis. However, this is more of an exception than the rule. At the beginning of WWII, the Germans did possess the most advanced warfare technology on the planet, and their army was second to nobody. Given equal numbers, nobody, not even the US or Russia, could beat the Germans. However, towards the end of WWII the Americans and the British were able to keep up with the advanced German technology and construct some of their own, and the sheer numbers of the allies eventually overwhelmed the Nazis. This, and the fact that Hitler went insane from the middle towards the end of the war, and decided to take on the entire world..

After reading the original post again, I am more certain now than ever that the Remnant wins.

Revan does NOT have an infinite amount of ships without the Star Forge, therefore he can't win this. That was the only thing making his victory even a possibility, and without it, there's no way Revan can win this.

This is true, but technology does not necessarily decide the battle (for proof of this, see what happened in the war between the Mughals and the Portuguese over Bengal, the technologically-superior Portuguese were wiped out very utterly), but it is without a doubt an important consideration.

Do we have any ideas on how large of a fleet Revan's Sith Empire had? It was obviously large, and consisted of most of the fleet sent out to chase the routing Mandalorians out of the Rim Worlds, plus Turncoat and captured ships. However, we have no concrete figure for even a ballpark number.

However, we can guess that Revan has the numerical advantage and Paelleon the technological. Both sides are veterans, having fought alongside two of the great generals of Star Wars, Revan and Thrawn.

However, whereas Thrawn is dead (unless, like Zahn hinted, there is yet another clone out there, but that is beside the point) and his successor is Paelleon, who, while good, is not another Thrawn. He also lacked the confidence to carry the battle on after Thrawn was killed by his bodyguard, which leads me to think that his ability is hampered by a somewhat lower confidence level than is healthy, which, on the plus side, might prevent him from getting everybody killed in one sitting, but on the negative side might mean he will lack the confidence to resolve a difficult strategical and/or tactical dilemma that Revan might force on him.

Revan, on the other hand, is faced with a foe he knows nothing about (though I take it Paelleon does not know his opponent and his tech as well, but since the Remnant has the tech advantage squarely in it's favor, this is not really a weakness), and will have to try to find the Achilles Heel of an Imperial Battle Cluster while keeping his losses relatively low (in other words, if he outnumbered Paelleon 5-1, he has to keep his losses 4-1, etc.)

This will ultimately be a battle of attrition, and that means that Revan has to try to pry Paelleon's fleet apart and concentrate fire on the cluster one by one to systematically cut the Remnant down to size, while Paelleon will have to try to engage the Sith Empire's forces partially, where he can bring the full might of his superior technology to bear on a small portion of Revan's fleet, destroy it while keeping his losses as low as possible, and try to engage another small fleet and take Revan done a few pegs that way while avoiding the main Sith fleet until it is weak enough.

It could go either way. I am slightly leaning towards Revan due to superior experience, but Paelleon, should he keep his cool, might take this with his superior firepower.

Originally posted by Tortoise Herder
It could go either way. I am slightly leaning towards Revan due to superior experience, but Paelleon, should he keep his cool, might take this with his superior firepower.

Actually in terms of war experience, the edge goes to Pellaeon as he has participated the Glactic civil war,thrawn crisis,part of operation shadow hand,vong war and swarm war. Now in terms of tactical skill/genius the edge goes to Revan. But keep in mind it is possible for Pallaeon to know of revan due to the gap in time. And could know a few of revan's tactics(just speculation)

Revan's fleet will most likely win due to superiors numbers because if you are gonna start a war to take of the republic you are going to need a fleet of considerable size. And prior to the start of the JCW he had 1/3 of the republic fleet under his command. I believe in order for Revan to overcome the tech. difference between the 2 fleets he will have to sacrifice 2-3 ships per one ISD (sort of like he did in the mado. wars when he would gain victories but sacrifice 10 men per one mando.) Or atleast have 2 ships attack one ISD at once with the right numbers and his better tactics,Revan's fleet will emerge as the victor.

Originally posted by Tortoise Herder
OK then, I stand corrected, and apologize. I was caught up in the big debate you see earlier, so thank you for the correction.

So, Revan has to be more careful with his men and use hit-and-run, but I do think he can take this, if he can minimize his losses in comparison to Paelleon.

Did you forget the fact that an ISD has over 150 times the turbolaser firepower of a Rakata ship? Are you unaware that for every ship the Empire has they have more than a thousand other smaller ships? Based on Pellaeon's quote of 200 ISD's, the Impire should have more than 200,000 FAR superior ships to what the Rakata have. They pwn them plain and simple.

BTW, whether or not Pellaeon is inferior to Revan is debateable. The Old Man of the Empire know's his shit.

Originally posted by Gideon
This is the Imperial Remnant as of the Hand of Thrawn duology, where Grand Admiral Pellaeon confirms that the Empire's remaining Star Destroyer count is at two hundred, versus the Infinite Empire, led by Revan, Dark Lord of the Sith. I am not a KotoR buff, but I assume that the Infinite Empire (before Revan's defeat) possessed more than two hundred ships.

Erm. Are we talking about the Rakatan's Infinite Empire here or about the Sith Empire under Revan (meaning Revan's actual troops before his defeat at the beginning of KotoR) ?



Well. You have to start at the beginning.
The standart set-up for Imperial fleets were 6 ISDs accompanied by 400 smaller (but still capital) ships ranging from Lancer Frigates over Dreadnaughts to Carriers. Thus if Palleon had 200 ISDs the number of his capital ships would still be somewhere around 13,000. And those would be ships compareable to the best that Revan had under his command. In addition they had at least one Super Star Destroyer.

Now notice that a single Mandator Class SSD (which is again inferior to the Executor-class or the Eclipse-class) was said to be able to deal with 1,000 CIS Recusant-class light destroyers (which are compareable to Revan's ships in terms of size).

Revan would be simply owned by the Imperial Remnant's superior technology. Once could even argue that - counting the support ships in - the Remnant also has superior numbers.

Bobard brings up an excellent point we don't know if the infinite fleet had any supporting ships while we know the imperial remnant did aswell as had a super star destroyer which decimate the infinite fleet's star destroyers.

Yes, Glentract, I actually DID take into account the supporting ships on the Imperial side. Naturally, each ISD will have supporting ships; fighters, support ships, gunships, frigates, fighter-bombers, bombers, etc. However, you fail to take into account that Revan will likely have the same sorts of supporting ships. These will, naturally, be of inferior tech than those of the Remnant, but more numerous.

And as for the quote of Paelleon's experience, I would have to cut that estimate by more than a bit: Paelleon did indeed serve in Shadow Hand, Swarm War, Vong War, etc all, but this takes place with the Remnant of 9 ABY, after they gave the campaign up at the Shipyards of Bilbringi. Thus, you have to add his combat in the Clone Wars, but subtract his experiences at everything past 9 ABY.

And, secondly, we have no idea what the Rakata Ships were like. Currently, it looks like much of the board is operating under the assumption that by "Infinite Empire," Gideon meant "Revan's Sith Empire," with the associated text. Until I get a clarification, then I will continue to operate under said assumption due to the ambiguity of the text.

If we WERE dealing with the Rakata VS Remnant, then I would agree, the Rakata and Revan would lose. Big Time.

However, your quote of 200,000 Remnant ships of all types is, to be quite frank, is a little hard to buy.

We can all agree that the core of the Imperial Remnant's fleet for this battle/campaign will be the 200 or so Imperial-class Star Destroyers that the Remnant had after the final retreat from Bilbringi. Those ships, if they are Imperial Is, can only carry 72 fighters, and if they are Imperial IIs, they can only carry six.

And plus, I am also more than a little bit stumped as to how you assume that the Remnant has a pristine support fleet after the knock-down drag-out at Bilbringi. These ships have suffered attrition in numbers and personnel. Thus, Paelleon is going to have to make due on understrength units.

I am also skeptical of how you can claim there will be 200,000 ships, as what would give you reason to think that? Any sources on the size of an Imperial battle group? please post.

And, again, Paelleon may know "his shit," but I do not think that he was the supreme commander of a military-at-arms before 9 ABy, which is what we are dealing with.

Oops, it looks like I forgot the hit "refresh" while writing the old post up.

Given Borbarad's post, if the Imperial navy has a numerical AND technological advantage, it is over. Revan may be able to struggle doggedly on for some time, but ultimately it will go to Paelleon.

Firstoff, however, I want to remind people that we are NOT dealing with a fresh Imperial Battle Cluster here, it did suffer several prior battles, and is probably in the process of being repaired.

However, Borbarad does have a valid point. This might not be a fresh Imperial Battle Cluster, it is certainly not shattered either, as Paelleon managed to withdraw his fleet after Thrawn's death without being completely routed and hunted down.

So, if the Remnant DOES have a numerical advantage, the only way I can see Revan winning is if he can have his fighters kamikazi into the bridge of the Star Destroyers (hey, it HAS worked before...)

Don't forget though that they did have 1 super star destroyer which would play a big difference.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Erm. Are we talking about the Rakatan's Infinite Empire here or about the Sith Empire under Revan (meaning Revan's actual troops before his defeat at the beginning of KotoR) ?



Well. You have to start at the beginning.
The standart set-up for Imperial fleets were 6 ISDs accompanied by 400 smaller (but still capital) ships ranging from Lancer Frigates over Dreadnaughts to Carriers. Thus if Palleon had 200 ISDs the number of his capital ships would still be somewhere around 13,000. And those would be ships compareable to the best that Revan had under his command. In addition they had at least one Super Star Destroyer.

Now notice that a single Mandator Class SSD (which is again inferior to the Executor-class or the Eclipse-class) was said to be able to deal with 1,000 CIS Recusant-class light destroyers (which are compareable to Revan's ships in terms of size).

Revan would be simply owned by the Imperial Remnant's superior technology. Once could even argue that - counting the support ships in - the Remnant also has superior numbers.

Damn. All right, Nai. Well, I didn't want this to be ownage either way. Perhaps you could tell me how I could even the odds?

Originally posted by Gideon
Damn. All right, Nai. Well, I didn't want this to be ownage either way. Perhaps you could tell me how I could even the odds?

You could reduce the Imperial Navy to 10 ISD's and no support ships.

The Infinite Empire crumples and dies from the awesomeness of Pellaeon

They really do. They'd just be like "how the **** has he lived so long?" and die.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
You could reduce the Imperial Navy to 10 ISD's and no support ships.

:O

Ten Imperial-class Star Destroyers could contend with Revan's entire fleet?

Originally posted by Gideon
:O

Ten Imperial-class Star Destroyers could contend with Revan's entire fleet?

They might well be able to do so. You have to keep in mind that a SINGLE ISD has 150 times the turbolaser firepower of Revan's ships. 10 ISD's could match 1,500 of Revan's ships. You might need to throw in 10 or 20 more to make sure, but it certainly would take nowhere near the entire Remnant fleet.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
They might well be able to do so. You have to keep in mind that a SINGLE ISD has 150 times the turbolaser firepower of Revan's ships. 10 ISD's could match 1,500 of Revan's ships. You might need to throw in 10 or 20 more to make sure, but it certainly would take nowhere near the entire Remnant fleet.

Holy -censor-.

Okay. Damn. So, how bad would the Galactic Empire -- at its height -- win? How long would it take for Revan's entire fleet to be hunted down, I mean, if it were a campaign.

Glentract and Nai, be cool if you could add something to this topic.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=462957&pagenumber=1#post9459587

I need to know about SW tech and you two seem the best to ask around here.

Originally posted by Gideon
Holy -censor-.

Okay. Damn. So, how bad would the Galactic Empire -- at its height -- win? How long would it take for Revan's entire fleet to be hunted down, I mean, if it were a campaign.

Well, the GE has far superior galactic maps aswell as better hyperdrives. It would really depend on how well they could hide in place like the unknown regions. It might take a few months if Revan's fleets just fled at every turn.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Well, the GE has far superior galactic maps aswell as better hyperdrives. It would really depend on how well they could hide in place like the unknown regions. It might take a few months if Revan's fleets just fled at every turn.

All right. And, if you were a gambling person, how long would his fleets last in engagements against, say... Vader's Death Squadron or Thrawn's forces?

first off where did you get this info on the turbo lasers for the ISD 150 times more powerful?

and over 25 thousand years minimum passed between the Rakatan Infinite Empire and the events in Kotor and they were still just as powerful if not more than the Republic's ships of the day.

also reven could easily board on of the ISD's while it is being distracted, since he was one of the most powerful sith/Jedi in star wars history and his empire also had thousands of sith he could capture an ISD then implement the technology in his own ships by upgrading his weapons and shields.

and also just for speculations sake, Bastila had joined Revan and used her Battle meditation to rally the rakatan ships.


Land battles would not have been as one sided as the space battles.
The ISD carries approx. 9700 troops, that would be a total of 1,940,000 troops, it would probably be safe to say that Revan and his 1000+ sith are with him, as well as malak, and probably 2 mil. troops

the remnant have about2 mil. troops as well as several thousand AT-At's and At-St's.

I do not know much about revan's attack vehicles, but I do know that a Storm trooper is no match for a jedi, and a sith has more aggresive force powers than a jedi, so it is safe to say thatthe sith would tear the troops apart

And since revan is about as powerful as luke if not the same, he could take on alot of At-Ats as well as At-Sts.

Revan would probably have his troops use a mandalorian battle rifle, considering he knew he knew how powerful it was.

Since revan was a master tactician we know he would probably use HK-47 to take out the remnant fleet commanders.
Since the HK series was discontinued the remnant probably know very little about HK-47 let alone about HK series and how they masqueraded as protocol droids then wreaked havoc after a short time, what is to stop HK-47 from doin that again?

also just comparing the ISD to the Rakatan warships and Revans strategic skills to pallean deosn't cut it. Revan has a huge advantage, the sith and they were not push-overs.

Revan had precognitive abilities as well as the force.

sheer numbers and fire power deos not cut it, the rebels are living proof of that.
at the battle of endor the rebels were out matched but they ended up on top through sabotage on han solos part with the shield generators part, along with the rebels blowing up the Death star, if numbers and strategy were the only things that mattered the empire would have crushed te rebels.

First Off people is that the infinite Empire was Before Revans Time indeed Before Xim the Despot?Revans Empire was simply known as Revan's Sith Empire or simply Sith Empire. and in a battle between Revan's Forces and the Imperial Reminant it would be Revan who came out on top by Numerical Advantage (Star Forge). While the Empire had a number of Immobilizer 418 Cruisers, the Sith Empire's main battleship was the Interdictor-class cruiser Revan's forces could pull the Remnant's forces from hyperspace something that thier commander were not used to which would give Revan's faction a huge advantage unless they manage to pull Thrawn then it is up to who ever is the better tactical thinker.

According to Beefy the Infinate Empire is haxxed.

In terms of technology, the Infinite Empire is more advanced than anything we've seen, and that's 25,000 years bby. I'm not sure they can overcome sheer numbers though. Unless of course, they release The Infernal One and the Imprisoned One.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
In terms of technology, the Infinite Empire is more advanced than anything we've seen, and that's 25,000 years bby. I'm not sure they can overcome sheer numbers though. Unless of course, they release The Infernal One and the Imprisoned One.

On the one hand, they have cool force tech and all that.


On the other hand, yields and ship capacity *does* increase over time, if slowly, and the Starforge ships weren't blowing away equal numbers of KotoR era ships left and right. I suspect the IR's ships will be more formidable. Fighters too.

After playing TOR, rakata tech is still superior.

Beefy is right. A quest in TOR mentions that Czerka found rakata tech with the energy output throughput of a sun. Considering this was merely tech from a prison, I shudder to think about what their ships could do.

The IE's ships were better than the KotoR era ships, but those ones in turn would be mulch compared to IR ships. Smaller, weaker, more fragile, you name it.

What many people don't seem to know is that the interdictor was not the most powerful ship. That was the Centurion-class battlecruiser. That is if you trust Wookiepedia.

Also, the Interdictor is about as powerful as a Victory 2 Destroyer (just for reference) and the Centurion had as many fighters as an ISD although being far weaker in firepower. The fighters were the same if not better. There should be no dispute about Revan's superior tactics. With a similarly sized fleet, Revan would make a very difficult fight.