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I am, admittedly, not a huge fan of the RotS novelization. It is a decent read, but there are much better SW books out there (Stover uses way too much philosophy as a substitute for the storyline, which pisses me off). However, I was glancing through it earlier when I found this quote in regards to Palpatine made by Count Dooku.

In this scene, Dooku immerses himself in the dark side of the Force to the point that his perception goes beyond the physical plane. He observes Obi-Wan Kenobi, saying thus:

"Kenobi was luminous, a transparent being, a window onto a sunlit meadow of the Force."

...and then Anakin:

"Skywalker was a storm cloud, flickering with dangerous lightning, building the rotation that threatens a tornado."

Finally, he observes Palpatine - shackled to the General's chair:

"And then there was Palpatine, of course: he was beyond power. He showed nothing of what might be within. Though seen with the eyes of the dark side itself, Palpatine was an event horizon. Beneath his entirely ordinary surface was absolute, perfect nothingness. Darkness beyond darkness. A black hole of the Force."

What with the multiple arguments and debates around Darth Nihilus, I couldn't help but recognize that these quotes from the RotS novelization seemed remarkably similar to the quotes about Nihilus. This makes me wonder: is Palpatine a "wound in the Force"? He singlehandedly caused the unbalance and diminished the Jedi's ability to use the Force. Is this why?

Offer some insights. Not being an expert on Nihilus or wounds in the Force, I'd like some opinions.

Originally posted by Gideon
I am, admittedly, not a huge fan of the RotS novelization. It is a decent read, but there are much better SW books out there (Stover uses way too much philosophy as a substitute for the storyline, which pisses me off). However, I was glancing through it earlier when I found this quote in regards to Palpatine made by Count Dooku.

In this scene, Dooku immerses himself in the dark side of the Force to the point that his perception goes beyond the physical plane. He observes Obi-Wan Kenobi, saying thus:

"Kenobi was luminous, a transparent being, a window onto a sunlit meadow of the Force."

...and then Anakin:

"Skywalker was a storm cloud, flickering with dangerous lightning, building the rotation that threatens a tornado."

Finally, he observes Palpatine - shackled to the General's chair:

"And then there was Palpatine, of course: he was beyond power. He showed nothing of what might be within. Though seen with the eyes of the dark side itself, Palpatine was an event horizon. Beneath his entirely ordinary surface was absolute, perfect nothingness. Darkness beyond darkness. A black hole of the Force."

What with the multiple arguments and debates around Darth Nihilus, I couldn't help but recognize that these quotes from the RotS novelization seemed remarkably similar to the quotes about Nihilus. This makes me wonder: is Palpatine a "wound in the Force"? He singlehandedly caused the unbalance and diminished the Jedi's ability to use the Force. Is this why?

Offer some insights. Not being an expert on Nihilus or wounds in the Force, I'd like some opinions.

While I don't think he was born as a wound in the force, it's possible that he can make himself that way because of his limitless power. Also, I don't see how he caused an unbalance in the force. If he did, Anakin wouldn't have to destroy the jedi to bring balance, and then destroy the sith to further bring balance. You bring up an interesting discussion though. I'd like to think that Sidious was born a perfect being with the potential above any sith or jedi in history, and had an amazing teacher in Plagueis. As a result of this, the force created Anakin Skywalker, I guess a Jesus to combat Satan, if you think in biblic terms. This is just off the top of my head.

A wound in The Force is not well-defined. We are told by the Jedi Masters that Nihilus is an "echo." Similarly, these "echoes" surround places of mass death.

From what I understand it, a wound in The Force still exists in The Force. You can't call it a hole as some people do because The Force still exists there. But since the Force runs through all living things and wounds are in places where much life was extinguished, there are only "echoes" of The Force; of those who once lived there.

Now a wound can be smaller than places like Alderaan. They can be people like Nihilus or the Exile who are technically dead to The Force. The Exile ripped the Force from herself and so technically "died" to it. Nihilus is a bigger mystery. We don't know how or when he became a wound. Kreia says he is "dead" but if this isn't a metaphor, there's any number of reasons he's a wound. We know he trapped his consciousness in his armor which would mean his "life" is in his armor and what we saw in KOTOR 2 is the lifeless husk that was left. So powerful that it existed even without it. Or he's dead and a wound from simply immersing himself so wholly in death; feeding on death.

A wound in The Force still has presence in The Force. The Exile and Nihilus are not cut off from it completely as the Exile steadily regains her presence adn Nihilus still uses Force powers and sees with The Force. They just don't register as a normal being would.

As for Palpatine...he's still very much alive and wholly connected with The Force. I thinK Dooku simply meant he was undetectable and evil.

Well, when was Anakin's murder of the Jedi part of the "unbalancing" of the Force? As I seem to recall, Lucas made it explicitly clear that it was the Sith that was the "unbalance" in the Force - specifically Vader and Palpatine. According to Lucas, when Vader was redeemed and he killed Palpatine, balance was restored.

The Force has already swung to the Dark Side and the Sith. The murder of the Jedi had no real effect on The Force from what I see. No more than any mass loss of life. The unbalancing was caused by Palpatine and then undone by Palpatine and Vader dying.

Eh, the way I see it as the only two characters in the SW universe that made the force their own servant, would be Luke and Palpatine. The darkside literally served him to the point where his body was dying from the energy. That's why I believe in the whole biblical explanation how Sidious was born as Satan, and Jesus Skywalker was born to combat Satan, although it worked out weird.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Eh, the way I see it as the only two characters in the SW universe that made the force their own servant, would be Luke and Palpatine. The darkside literally served him to the point where his body was dying from the energy. That's why I believe in the whole biblical explanation how Sidious was born as Satan, and Jesus Skywalker was born to combat Satan, although it worked out weird.

There is one difference between Satan and Palpatine; Satan was once an angel (in fact, he is considered to have been the "greatest" of God's angels), whereas Palpatine has never been shown to have been good or docile at any point in time.

But, back to the primary discussion: The quotes floating around about Palpatine seem to support that he was the one who caused the "unbalance", otherwise the Chosen One could have been enacted during any time the Sith were active, yet destiny chose to put Anakin "into play", so to speak, when Sidious's reign emerged. For example, Labyrinth of Evil dictates that two hundred years before the Emperor, "the dark side had been gaining strength". The continuity seems to imply that the reign of the Empire was the greatest period of "dark side dominance" which is likely why the prophecy occured at that critical moment.

But, yeah, Palpatine's body was dying under the vast amount of dark side energies, he is "the one the Sith have waited a millenium for", "the greatest master of evil ever to use Sith power". Whether or not he is "the most powerful" might be challenged, but I think it is indisputable that the dark side was the strongest with him.

I think Dooku's perception, "as seen through the eyes of the dark side itself" sheds a lot of light on this topic.

I'm going to take a stab in the dark here, but when the force seemed to be in "flux", isn't that around the time Plagueis was born? I won't say that Plagueis was uber powerful but Sidious made him seem that way. My point is, the force was in flux during the birth of the one who would teach the greatest sith ever. I'm really not thinking right now so this load of crap is all I have.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
I'm going to take a stab in the dark here, but when the force seemed to be in "flux", isn't that around the time Plagueis was born? I won't say that Plagueis was uber powerful but Sidious made him seem that way. My point is, the force was in flux during the birth of the one who would teach the greatest sith ever. I'm really not thinking right now so this load of crap is all I have.

Well, we have no specific date - or even a "good guess" - of when Darth Plagueis was born. He was suppoedly a Muun, and if they have lifespans that are beyond a human's, I suppose it's possible that he was born at the time, but we have no proof. Anyways, we also don't know how much about Plagueis was actually true, though Palpatine's thoughts in RoDV indicated that he believed Plagueis truly did hold the secrets in regards to midichlorian manipulation.

But several sources indicate that Sidious - not Plagueis - was the one "the Sith had been waiting for", born with the power to bring them back to dominance, yadda yadda.

Yea but we DO know that judging by Sidious' power and intelligence, Plagueis was a magnificent teacher. So while Sidious was the chosen one for the sith, Plagueis did his part in preparing Sidious.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Yea but we DO know that judging by Sidious' power and intelligence, Plagueis was a magnificent teacher. So while Sidious was the chosen one for the sith, Plagueis did his part in preparing Sidious.

Well, "power" and "intelligence" aren't things that can be taught. They can be refined and technique can be taught, and yeah, I'm sure Plagueis was an outstanding mentor.

Originally posted by Gideon
I am, admittedly, not a huge fan of the RotS novelization. It is a decent read, but there are much better SW books out there (Stover uses way too much philosophy as a substitute for the storyline, which pisses me off). However, I was glancing through it earlier when I found this quote in regards to Palpatine made by Count Dooku.

In this scene, Dooku immerses himself in the dark side of the Force to the point that his perception goes beyond the physical plane. He observes Obi-Wan Kenobi, saying thus:

"Kenobi was luminous, a transparent being, a window onto a sunlit meadow of the Force."

...and then Anakin:

"Skywalker was a storm cloud, flickering with dangerous lightning, building the rotation that threatens a tornado."

Finally, he observes Palpatine - shackled to the General's chair:

"And then there was Palpatine, of course: he was beyond power. He showed nothing of what might be within. Though seen with the eyes of the dark side itself, Palpatine was an event horizon. Beneath his entirely ordinary surface was absolute, perfect nothingness. Darkness beyond darkness. A black hole of the Force."

What with the multiple arguments and debates around Darth Nihilus, I couldn't help but recognize that these quotes from the RotS novelization seemed remarkably similar to the quotes about Nihilus. This makes me wonder: is Palpatine a "wound in the Force"? He singlehandedly caused the unbalance and diminished the Jedi's ability to use the Force. Is this why?

Offer some insights. Not being an expert on Nihilus or wounds in the Force, I'd like some opinions. It wasn't the best read, but a hell of a lot better than the movie.

That description sounds more like Palpatine was more of a pinnacle of darkness within the Force. Almost as if, he was THE embodiment of the Dark Side.

Nihilus, I got the impression was a Wound that was trying to repair itself by destroying Life and consuming the Force, hence the reason behind his "hunger."

The Exile was the Wound that was trying to heal herself by doing good, getting in touch with the Light, and all that crap.

Originally posted by Tangible God
It wasn't the best read, but a hell of a lot better than the movie.

That description sounds more like Palpatine was more of a pinnacle of darkness within the Force. Almost as if, he was THE embodiment of the Dark Side.

Nihilus, I got the impression was a Wound that was trying to repair itself by destroying Life and consuming the Force, hence the reason behind his "hunger."

The Exile was the Wound that was trying to heal herself by doing good, getting in touch with the Light, and all that crap.

M'kay. Thanks for the insight.

Originally posted by Gideon
I am, admittedly, not a huge fan of the RotS novelization. It is a decent read, but there are much better SW books out there (Stover uses way too much philosophy as a substitute for the storyline, which pisses me off). However, I was glancing through it earlier when I found this quote in regards to Palpatine made by Count Dooku.

In this scene, Dooku immerses himself in the dark side of the Force to the point that his perception goes beyond the physical plane. He observes Obi-Wan Kenobi, saying thus:

"Kenobi was luminous, a transparent being, a window onto a sunlit meadow of the Force."

...and then Anakin:

"Skywalker was a storm cloud, flickering with dangerous lightning, building the rotation that threatens a tornado."

Finally, he observes Palpatine - shackled to the General's chair:

"And then there was Palpatine, of course: he was beyond power. He showed nothing of what might be within. Though seen with the eyes of the dark side itself, Palpatine was an event horizon. Beneath his entirely ordinary surface was absolute, perfect nothingness. Darkness beyond darkness. A black hole of the Force."

What with the multiple arguments and debates around Darth Nihilus, I couldn't help but recognize that these quotes from the RotS novelization seemed remarkably similar to the quotes about Nihilus. This makes me wonder: is Palpatine a "wound in the Force"? He singlehandedly caused the unbalance and diminished the Jedi's ability to use the Force. Is this why?

Offer some insights. Not being an expert on Nihilus or wounds in the Force, I'd like some opinions.

It says that Sidious is a "black hole in the Force" the general termen for a "breach" is either "Wound in the Force" or "Hole in the Force".

Anyway that was from Dooku's description about Palpatine,his own opinion if you like.

What Dooku refered was the he was undetectable by the Jedi.

Wound of the force. Heart of the force. All of these ideas died with KOTOR 2 and what may have been the original vision for KOTOR 3