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Luke Skywalker vs. Darth Vader (ESB)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iK6ch_vpoh8

Obi-Wan & Qui-Gon vs. Darth Maul (TPM)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MsNDXffEcPU

Obi-Wan.

Dooku could beat them both.

Of course.

Obi-Wan.

Obi sure.

Kenobi, with a little difficulty, though, if it's Luke neat the end of ESB, but not to much difficulty.

Obi-Wan easily.

Oh come on...that fight with Vader was pretty decent. You think TPM Obi-Wan would do as well?

I think obi wins too but it would be some effort.

Yes, he could, as:
1. Vader wasn't trying to hurt Luke.
"I do not want the Emperor's prize damaged. We will test it...on Captain Solo."
2. Vader wasn't using the Force on Luke, just his lightsaber (someone had a quote saying that if Vader had used the Force on Luke he'd have been owned, even in ROTJ, can't remember the quote, though, I wish I'd have kept it in my profile).
3. At the beginning the fight Vader casually knocks Luke down after I believe just one clash of their lightsabers, but doesn't kill him because he seeks to bring him to the Emperor undamaged. Obi-Wan wouldn't go down after one clash of sabers.

So yes, I do think that TPM kenobi could do just as well against vader is Vader was using only his saber and trying not to hurt him. However, I do agree that no one will be getting pwnd in this fight, but it won't be that close, either.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=7415962& amp;highlight=Luke+Vader+userid%3A88426#post741596
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That seems to disagree Vader was going easy on Luke.

Yes, he had tried to defeat Luke, but he had not tried to kill him, except for that one certain instance when he tested Luke. In the movie Vader says things like "Far to easy. Perhaps you are not as strong as the Emperor has perceived." That overrides the "had he been able to kill Luke easily, Luke would not have been worth the effort to recruit. But although he had certaintly attempted to defeat Luke, the boy hd held his own." part. The part where Vader holds his saber to Luke's neck, and taks about how Luke is beaten, that also prooves that Vader wasn't going all out - he he had been he'd have killed Luke right then and there. Or at least he'd have cut off Luke's hand then and there if he was going all out to try and win without harming Luke. But no: "You couldn't bring yourself to kill me before, and I don't believe you'll destroy me now."

That quote seems pretty retconned by the films themselves. So yeah, Vader was going at least somewhat easy on Luke, and certainly wasn't trying to kill him, save for that one move.

Originally posted by darthsith19


That quote seems pretty retconned by the films themselves. So yeah, Vader was going at least somewhat easy on Luke, and certainly wasn't trying to kill him, save for that one move. Somewhat easy?, very easy. In ESB, Vader could have killed Luke in a matter of seconds, if he wanted, he was merely testing him, Vader never at any time in either movie went all out on Luke, he couldn't, in ESB when Luke hit him, 2 seconds later the fight was over.

Yeah, Vader could have killed Luke in the matter of seconds.

Originally posted by darthsith19
Yes, he had tried to defeat Luke, but he had not tried to kill him, except for that one certain instance when he tested Luke. In the movie Vader says things like "Far to easy. Perhaps you are not as strong as the Emperor has perceived." That overrides the "had he been able to kill Luke easily, Luke would not have been worth the effort to recruit. But although he had certaintly attempted to defeat Luke, the boy hd held his own." part. The part where Vader holds his saber to Luke's neck, and taks about how Luke is beaten, that also prooves that Vader wasn't going all out - he he had been he'd have killed Luke right then and there. Or at least he'd have cut off Luke's hand then and there if he was going all out to try and win without harming Luke. But no: "You couldn't bring yourself to kill me before, and I don't believe you'll destroy me now."

That quote seems pretty retconned by the films themselves. So yeah, Vader was going at least somewhat easy on Luke, and certainly wasn't trying to kill him, save for that one move.

Vader wasn't trying to kill Luke? Look at 5:00 minutes into it.

TPM Kenobi, he was more in control of himself, he had allot more practice, precision, better technically...

Originally posted by ESB -1138
Vader wasn't trying to kill Luke? Look at 5:00 minutes into it.
I have dial-up. I'm not going to load 5 minutes of youtube just to see one thing. Could you kindly tell me which part you're referring to?

This is bullshit...he was talking to him...talking some more...oh wait, talked a little more...then 3 seconds after Luke got in a lucky shot on his shoulder, Vader ended it, as if to show how easily he could have destroyed him. Then after that, he could have killed him, but what did he do instead? That's right, he talked a little more...


OB1 trashes Luke...

Badly.

A. No such thing as luck. Vader was swinging his saber stupid and Luke got him.
B. Did you miss how every OT duel had dialogue in them?


And Luke showed more intelligence and ability in a duel than TPM Obi-Wan. He's shoved down into a pit then jumps out before it can freeze him, then drops down, pushes the steam Vader himself had caused to come out into his face to hold him off, pulled his lightsaber to him and went to strike at Vader all in quick succession (sp?).

Not to mention his jump was so quick and quiet that Vader couldn't even sensed he moved.

I agree that it wasn't luck, but there is such a thing as Luke - Kenobi beating Anakin in ROTS, Kenobi beating Maul, ect.

Not Maul vs. Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan. Or Maul vs. Qui-Gon on Tatooine. Yoda vs. Dooku didn't after they had actually started to fight, same with Dooku vs. Anakin in AOTC. And Sidious vs. Yoda.

Eh, good points. He did jump out very quickly, far more quickly than Kenobi jumped back up to the catwalk in TPM, though it wasn't as far a distance it's still impressive. I think Vader got overconfident so he didn't try to sense Luke coming back up because he didn't expect him to, he thought it was over. Same goes for the steam thing, he though since the first part was so easy Luke couldn't do anything to him, but he was wrong. So it's more to do with Vader's overconfidence than with Luke's skill, though you do have some good points.

Originally posted by Nikkolas
A. No such thing as luck. Vader was swinging his saber stupid and Luke got him. Yes there is luck. Almost everytime OB1 wins a duel, its luck, as said by GL to be humorous. And Vader was swinging like that to give the appearance of going all out. He didn't swing too stupidly when he disarmed Luke and then lopped his hand off. It was a put-on and when Luke got lucky, he ended it - quickly. If it were a timed and aimed hit, he would have done more than tapped him and ran.
Originally posted by Nikkolas
B. Did you miss how every OT duel had dialogue in them?
Did you miss how that one had the most? He wanted Luke on his side...not the Sith's side or his and the emperor's side...but his, and he didn't want him "damaged" as he himself said.

Originally posted by Nikkolas
And Luke showed more intelligence and ability in a duel than TPM Obi-Wan. He's shoved down into a pit then jumps out before it can freeze him, then drops down, pushes the steam Vader himself had caused to come out into his face to hold him off, pulled his lightsaber to him and went to strike at Vader all in quick succession (sp?). No. Luke was more like Anakin, foolhardy, and hotheaded like he had something to prove. OB1 was all about going by the book and being the best Jedi he could be, and had a more comprehensive teaching/learning environment, ergo giving him a better understanding of his abilities and how to use them. As soon as he abandoned those morals when facing Maul, all he did was break his saber and get a kick in and then almost got killed. So overall, OB1 is better. Plain and simple.

And DS, maybe you should read what he wrote...OT (which was even capitalized) duels...not PT. Every duel you mentioned was a PT duel.

Originally posted by Nikkolas
Not to mention his jump was so quick and quiet that Vader couldn't even sensed he moved. Quick, yes. Quiet, not really. Thats what alerted Vader to Luke being up there. He didn't sense it probably because he didn't think he could do that and was preoccupied. Big deal. OB1 and QGJ ran faster than Luke jumped, so I don't see how Luke doing one jump means he can beat OB1 in a fight. I missed that connection.

How can you say what is luck in a duel? The two were going at it fiercely and when Luke saw an opening, he took it.

It was a fair hit as far as I saw.



You can prove there's more dialogue in that fight than between obi and Vader or the second fight between Luke and Vader?



It's true Luke and Anakin were both put on their ass in short order when they rushed in but for Luke's case, he didn't have someone right next to him shouting "NO, LUKE! NO!!"

True they both don't have patience, though. But Luke had to go or his friends might die. Anakin rushed in because he's stupid.



Obi had Maul down and could have struck a killing blow but he chose to FLIP over him...for God's sake.

Beside that, Obi-Wan isn't gonna be charging in with furious strikes and blows in this fight. He's gonna be fighting like he did with Qui-Gon...which wasn't that good.



How do you run faster than someone jumped?

Originally posted by Nikkolas
How can you say what is luck in a duel? The two were going at it fiercely and when Luke saw an opening, he took it.

It was a fair hit as far as I saw. Luke was fighting fiercely, while Vader could have been swinging uncharacteristically of himself in order to scare Luke into submission. As it turned out, that didn't happen cause 3 seconds after Vader started taking the fight seriously, it was over.



Originally posted by Nikkolas
You can prove there's more dialogue in that fight than between obi and Vader or the second fight between Luke and Vader? Talking, as i meant differently than taunting, was present more in that duel than the others. If i didn't have two kids sleeping on the couch, I would be happy to go over, put on all three movies and count every word spoken during those duels and report my findings to you (sarcasm).



Originally posted by Nikkolas
It's true Luke and Anakin were both put on their ass in short order when they rushed in but for Luke's case, he didn't have someone right next to him shouting "NO, LUKE! NO!!" You're right, he had someone far wiser than him, and a ghost, telling him not to even go. Luke prevented absolutely nothing. Han was captured, and Lando more or less saved Leia and Chewie. Luke going did nothing but cause him to lose a hand.

Originally posted by Nikkolas
True they both don't have patience, though. But Luke had to go or his friends might die. Anakin rushed in because he's stupid. Luke was warned to not go, but he did so anyway, and had to cross space to do so. Anakin was in pursuit of a Sith lord who just killed a bunch of his friends and was there to confront him, and rushed in due to his feelings blinding his judgement (perhaps foreshadowing for his inevitable fall). They both rushed in for the same reasons...arrogance and stupidity, and they both lost a right hand in the process -- the difference -- Anakin was more justified in his actions, just wrong in his approach.



Originally posted by Nikkolas
Obi had Maul down and could have struck a killing blow but he chose to FLIP over him...for God's sake. Maul was right back up after he fell, and that was OB1's inexperience playing out there. If he had felt confident that he could have dealt a death blow without being put in a vulnerable position, I'm sure he would have. Ob1 was simply outclassed in that duel, as was Luke, but OB1 still performed better.

Originally posted by Nikkolas
Beside that, Obi-Wan isn't gonna be charging in with furious strikes and blows in this fight. He's gonna be fighting like he did with Qui-Gon...which wasn't that good. How do you know how he'd fight? He's simply a far better duelist that Luke. Smarter, more athletic, far more training in a more organized environment...who could possibly properly train Luke in saber combat? A ghost, or a crippled dwarf? Please...even in ROTJ he had no defined style, whereas OB1 did, and could practice both offense and defense. Luke had a remote droid. Yea, remotes=other lightsaber wielding force sensitive combatants. Even Han calls him out on that, "Good against remotes is one thing, good against the living -- thats something else."



Originally posted by Nikkolas
How do you run faster than someone jumped? Are you being serious or sarcastic? The speed at which your body moves through a series of movements dictated by your mind. Can you not run faster than you jump?

The actual jump was quite. after he was up hanging from those things was when he made noise, and that couldn't have been prevented. he didn't hear the actual jump. Vader even says that it's impressive. The jump doesn't put Luke ahead of Kenobi, but it does show that Luke is proficient with the Force. Luke also manages to deflect some of the objects that Vader throws at him in their duel.

That's right, and according to you guys Vader > Dooku, yet Dooku dispatched of Anakin without even having to draw his lightsaber...

Not during the actual duel, though, and Luke actually had a reason to go. Luke prevented absolutely nothing? Lol, are you kidding me? if Luke hadn't come, Vader would have been raoming around Cloud City and could have easily stopped Lando, Leia and Chewie from escaping, Lando could maybe save them from Stormtroopers but he'd have fared no better against Darth Vader than Han did, and we saw how badly Vader pwnd Han without even using a lightsaber.

He could have trained himself somewhat, just by fighting people for the Rebel Alliance. He practiced with R2-D2 as well, have you read SotE? Vader calls Luke "impressive" and Sidious fears Luke. And notice that this same boy, with absolutely no one training him, goes from ROTJ to NJO all on his own. So just because he has had informal training doesn't mean he'd lose.