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NEW IDEAR

O.K.
This is my theory. the ring wraiths had rings of power and used them.
The chief ring wraith was killed on the feild outside minas tirath,What happened to his ring?
Was it found and given to Aragorn ,who then used it to lead his army against mordor??????????????????

The lesser rings were not evil in themselves and could be used safly as were the three elven rings..

And just to be a pain , why where the wraiths rings not lost when the wraiths bodys where washed away at the river???????????????/

dont think aragorn used a ring, no

Aragorn may be a Dunedan but he is more man than anything else, and no man can safely use one of the Rings.

The reason the Elven Rings were ok is because of the incorruptible nature of the Elves.

The Nazguls Rings find their way back to their owners as the One Ring would.

I agree with ush here, I strongly believe that the elves are the only race who can safely use the lower rings, about the one ring, I think destroying it is for the best

you are total wrong(I think )
The dwarfs used their rings and the nine were made by the elves for men to use
Sauron only made the one ring by himself, the elves made the nine rings in good fiath
Also the one ring did not find itself back to sauron it was lost for years.
And if the captain of the wraiths was killed (and he was u know) then where would the ring make its way to????

No, the ring lay on the battle field waiting to be found. The question is by who?
The rings made thier wearers great captains/kings/warriors
Who became a great king and a warrior?(answers on a post card please)
The more I type the more sence it makes
ushgarak siad the elves where uncoruptable if so why were they afraid to use the one ring.HUH,HUH,HUH,?

Can the Ring Wraiths actually be killed, they are not really alive, they are in between life and death and only the destruction of the one ring which continues to control them will allow them to die.

These were the nine great kings, who were corrupted and used by Sauron for his purposes, if Aragorn had tried to use the ring then Aragorn would have suffered the same fate.

i don't recall anything about the nazgul's ring. But why woould aragorn try to use it. He can't weild it and i thought the 9 rings were a methode to insnare anyone foolish enough to accept them without asking questions...

People let us remember the rhyme,"Nine rings for mortal men doomed to die"
The nine rings where ment to be used by the kings of old.
And if you recall at the battle field the wraith declared that not by the hand of mortal man shall he be killed(KILLED). he was killed by a woman and a hobbit.
Arogorn could have used the ring , as did Gandalf used the elven ring even though he was no elf.
the nine rings where not evil in themselves only if sauron regained the one would he be able to control the new owner of the rings(all the rings includeing the elven rings, if that happened then it would not matter any way) so why would Arogorn not use the ring?, he used the stones????????

glorfindel it ain't because the elves made the rings that it is safe for humans to use them. and the one ring is made by sauron, sauron has with out a doubt made the most powerful ring, the elves can use the lower rings, but they are SMART enough NOT to try using the one ring like gandalf did. idd the dwarves used their rings, but do they still have their rings I doubt it

we don't know what the elven rings actually do. But the 9 rings for men are means of enslaving them. Their power isn't real. Aragorn was endurant enough to pass the test of not accepting THE ONE RING so why would he want one of the 9?

fire we do know what the three rings do (read the book) and that the elves do use them ,
the nine where not meant to enslave men(why would elves want to do that?).the only harm that would come to Arogorn is if the one ring (which is evil) was found and used. againn why would Arogorn not use the ring. it was his right too.

not the elves want to enslave the men...sauron. The one ring was forged to controllt he others. And again....why would aragorn use it? It would be a sign of weakness

Glorfindel, you appear to be in COMPLETE ignorance of the basic tenets of this story.

It does not matter what the rings were created for. Sauron CORRUPTED THEIR PURPOSE, and with the One Ring doomed those who used them to corruption.

Only the spiritual Elves could resist, and the hardy Dwarves got away with only a lust for gold.

But MAN had no such defence, and any man attempting to use a Ring was doomed to corruption, and that is exactly what happened! That's what the Nazguls ARE! THAT is what Aragorn would become should he try to use the Ring! That corruptive influence did NOT stop when Sauron lost the Ring; it exists as long as the One Ring does.

But not even the Elves can resist the power of the One Ring- in that they would attempt to use it's ultimate power for good and in doing so BECOME evil.

The One Ring does not work like the others, it is entirely different

So in future, before you start mouthoing off so ignorantly, check your VERY BASIC FACTS first.

I said the Nazgul's rings made their way back after the incident at the Ford, not after the death of the Witch-King.

And if you knew what you were talking about you would also know that all the rings try to make their way back to ther masters. The One Ring was prevented from doing so for a considerable period of time; clearly the rings of the Ringwraiths were not.

Incidentally, your idiocy in thinking that Eowyn as a woman there avoids the 'man' thing is extreme. The term 'man' was meant as in 'mankind' in that instance.

Questions are appreciated here but please check your facts before you mock others.

euhm that was dexx, not me

Errm, you do know that ESB was on whilst you were typing all this. And I do kind of agree with what you are saying but do you not think you are perhaps being a tad harsh?

I was watching it.

And no, I do not. If someone speaks in such critical terms, calls me and others totally wrong and uses mocking phrases, then he should check his facts before he posts. I have no hesitation in countering ignorance with criticism.

Criticising ignorance, are you sure that's what you did, if you read his posts properly is it not possible you were criticising stupidity which is not very fair is it?

Well, I make no great effort to discover whether his errors result from ignorance or stupidity.

But understand this- you post a view, it is subject to criticism. You post a view forcefully and mocking others- challenging them, even- prepared to be slapped right down if you have made a mess of it. For whatever reason.

I understand and agree with what you are saying, but I still maintain Glorfindel's comments are due to lack of understanding or stupidity, eg for someone to interpret 'not by the hand of mortal man shall he be killed(KILLED).' and then state that 'he was killed by a woman and a hobbit.' and think that this means the wraith would be dead not be deemed to be stupid or have totally mis-understood.

Actually wouldn't that be the definition of ignorance, ok you win you are right.

so....it's true that i do tend to avoid sentences like "you're totally wrong" and so on but i don't think glorfindel's statements were because of ignorance n'or stupidity. Many of us (me too) don't understand parts of lotr and that's why threads are openned about some of 'em.

I think that the part with the nazgul not being killed by mortal man reffers to man as in male. why else could he be so clearly killed by a woman. The hobbits had his role in damaging him ut can we say he killed it?

dear Ushgarak
I am glad that at last we have a debate that is raising the heat,otherwise whats the point?
I do feel though that to compare my veiw(question) to idiocy is harsh.
the three rings that the elves use(just like all the otheres (except the one)) could only be corrupted by the one. What I mean is that the three elven rings where hidden and not used while sauron had possetion of the one ring and were only used after he lost it. the rings do not corrupt in themselves only under the one ring can they be corrupted
This is my view please feel free to attack it with logic but not with aggression as this is the last refuge of the .........?

the fact that the wraith saw a woman in front of him on the battle field and not a man is a large part of the plot..

the prophacy was that not by the hand of MAN..

but back to the main problem, can we agree that the ring fell at the
battle field? it was lost and needed a new master? why not use it?

u keep poppijng that question...ok..take it this way. Why not use the one ring?

You are wrong to say that the rings only corrupt while Sauron has them; I will again remind you that the Nazgul's rings continued to corrupt them all the time while Sauron was formless and ringless. And the Elves were using their rings right from the start, while Sauron was still there with his one ring, just like everyone else was. Galadriel, Cirdan and Gil-Galad bore them from the moment they were finished onwards, as bequested by Celebrimbor. They are notable in being the only rings CONSTRUCTED outside of Sauron's influence- for he was never allowed to take them directly- but they still came under the influence of the One Ring.

My attack on your points was extremely logical. The aggression just punctuated the point and my extreme dissatsifaction at your tone. It was what you were saying that was nonsense.

And we have already answered your main question many times. Aragorn would be corrupted by the ring if he used it. Your assumption that they only corrupt while Sauron had the One Ring is simply incorrect.

Tolkien lies disturbed in his grave...

you win

Oh! Spoken like a gentleman, in which case I apologise.

I'd actually brought in my brother to speak on this, who may make an authorititive reply soon...

...but it is also very possible that the Nazguls no longer have Rings with pyhsical form, bound instead into their own wraithly bodies. So you could never even take the thing at all.

let him reply

My view is Aragorn would not use the ring from the Nazgul is because of threat of corruption. The reason why I think this is as follows...

Originally there were 19 rings (9 for men, 7 for dwarves, 3 for elves) and they were forged by the Noldor Elves under the guidance of Celebrimbor - the three elven rings were forged by Celebrimbor alone. Sadly, Sauron tricked Celebrimbor into revealing the secret of the rings. Sauron then made the One Ring in order to rule the other rings. So the One Ring has power over the other rings.

Sauron's plan was not entirely successful. Celebrimbor was able to realise Sauron's trap and free the three elven rings from Sauron's influence (arguably as he alone had made the three elvish rings). Sauron's influence could reach the Dwarves, but they turned out to be largely immune (though it gave them a lust for gold). Men, of course, were an easy target. So, the rings do corrupt even though they were not forged for that purpose but it is the One Ring.

Sauron placed much of his own essence into the One Ring, resulting in a strange link between the Ring and Sauron. While the ring exists Sauron will endure, which is how he survives the destruction of his body at the end of the Second Age. So anyone who wears the One Ring will be corrupted as so much of Sauron's essence is in the Ring. The One Ring influences the 16 rings of dwarves and men. Again, because so much of Sauron is in the Ring anyone wearing those rings will be also be corrupted through the influence of the One Ring.

What would happen if an Elf wore the one of the rings of men or dwarves is an interesting idea. On one hand Elves are meant to be uncorruptable. On the other Sauron is the ultimate corrupting force. I'd go with that the Elf would feel so uncomfortable handling one of these rings that he or she would't wear it.

The hardest question is the one about whee the rings go when a Nazgul is destroyed. Nazguls are wraiths so don't exist in the real world, but when their bodies are destroyed at the Ford of Bruinen they don't seem to lose any rings. So I guess the Ring stays with the Nazgul spirit while it finds a new body. This leads me on to my question...

Can someone tell me if the Chief Nazgul's ring is left behind after he is killed at Pelannor Fields? If it was, where does it say that in Return of the King? It could be Aragorn never put a ring on as he never got a chance to!

damn you're good, I agree with everything u say man

where does it say he didn,t lose the ring?
to answer another earlier point , why would aragorn put the ring on? , i have to ask why not? please consider the position.
Our hero has just defeated the witch king and his army,his options are to hide behind the walls, or to take the fight to sauron.
to hide is not in his nature,so on he must go.
He(as we know) will dare great deeds if he must. If(if) he took the ring what would happen? he would not get corrupted straigt away (even the one takes some time to twist people) he would gain some power or advantage by it,s use and what has he to lose? If the one is destoyed then his ring would lose its power and have nomore effect on him,If he dies ( ) then he is dead and the ring has no power over him.
my point then is IF the ring was there why not use it?

*wakes up after all that reading*
I think the final...final conclusion is that he wouldn't use the ring because he woudn't need it. As simple as that

it was just a thougth you know, one of those passing,lazy,thoughts

Glorfindel, LOTR clearly shows that it is the height of foolishness to believe you can use these corrupting things for a short amount of time with no ill effects. You think you will use it for a short time with no problem, that's not how it will be. It wasn't with the Palantirs, it wasn't with the One Ring, it would not be with those rings.

The WHOLE POINT is that you cannot use this corrupted power in ANY way or measure at all and be safe.

I am sorry that you think that the palantirs are evil because they were not. that is clearly stated in the unfinished tales under the title palantiri pages404 through to page 415. Arogorn had the right to use them and did , the effect or strain he suffered was through takeing control of the stone not because of any evil attached to the seeing stone.
If you have not read this book I strongly recomend it at the back are chapters that discribe the different races including wizzards,(istari),the druedainand the palantiri, it,s a good read.

enjoy

It was not the Palantirs that were evil, but the principle is still that Saruman did not think hes limited use of the palintirs would corrupt him (with Sauron at the other end) but it DID!

I will repeat this VERY BASIC point from the books- you don't piss around with evil in LOTR. There is no measure of limited use of it, or using it for a good cause. You try it and it GETS you.

But didn,t Arogorn use the palintiri to find out about the cossar attack thus he was able to deside to take the path of the dead to save the day (just in time)?
he used the stone while the other stone was still with sauron .just like saruman but the differance here is that Arogorn had the right to use the stone while saruman did not.
but I will agree with you that the whole point of LOTR,s is the rejection of evil,unlike the hobbit which is a clear fight against evil(smaug), all those who accept or try to gain through evil(the rings), are brought down(borromir) while those that are tried and resist(gladriel)are rewarded. that is the reason that we can maybe say that arogorn did not find or, if he did ,use a ring at the end.
total rejection of evil even at the end>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I believe Denethor had the right to use the palantir as well, yet he was still affected and became despair stricken, as the chapter you mentioned above notes. That chapter specifically states that the palantirs were not by design things of evil but Sauron's influence (though he did not put 100% attention to it) pervaded them. I'll check about Aragorn.

But yes, the principle of total rejection of evil would mean there is no chance that Aragorn would use that Ring. Even if it were physically there, which is in doubt.

but he could have lol.












sorry heh heh heh

I still think ush is right, aragorn looks too smart to fool around with a ring that might be evil

boromir didn't look too stupid either

boromir looked more stupid than aragorn according to me

oh both of them were wise men. but the mind is easily corrupted by the ring, if you have a wish to use it, for good or bad.

I think u're right, still think aragorn looked smarter

I don't think Boromir was wise, exactly. He wasn't stupid by any means but intellectually he was not a genius.

pff, he was. only more of the militant and physical nature that his father had, which can be dangerous, but he had done nothing but good things in the past.

he was a hero to his people , they new him best

we can't know who looked smarter. The actors are chosen in peter jackson's point of view. But then..it wouldn't be a question of smartness but of mind strenght.

what actors?? it,s real....isn,t it??

ergh...ofcourse...but assuming it's not real

how does one do that?????????????????

one just opens his eyes

well that's a point dexx but still

anyway...just waiting too see ttt..oh boy oh boy oh boy

Thats the one where the ring wraith does,not lose his ring.......oh no thats the last one isn,t it..............

sorry
Just re-read certian parts ofLOTR,s and on page 327 it states Gandalf saying to Galdor "The nine the Nazgul keep".
Also when Sauron had the one ring cut from his hand the ring did not make its way back to sauron in any magic manner it was carried by other people, so when the which king was slayed the ring had to have fallen on the battle field
Now Arogorn may not have used the ring as we have agreed , but to keep the story constant we must agree that the ring fell
It is hard to imagine that the which king would go into battle without his ring ,just as sauron used the one when he fought

It is STATED that the One Ring has a will of its own and will try and get back to its master! Please try and read these things thoroughly! But Isildur died in a bloody inconvenient place for it.

And how the Ring acts with Sauron is by no means the same as how the rings act with the Ringwraiths- Sauron had PHYSICAL FORM (despite what the film showed), the ringwraiths do not.

It,s inconvenient to die anywhere
Anyway Logically if the wraiths had no form how do they use thier morgal knife in this realm? how did they attack the prancing pony? if they can hold a knife they can hold a ring of power and if not where are the nine rings kept?
p.s. If you mean bloody as an awkward place to die,that is ok. if it is in despair at my attempts to keep the thread relevant then that s ok too

Manchester is wet and cold today

I mean awkward, yes.

And they have a limited reach into the physical world, which is how they interact with it (though not at ALL well, which is why they havw to sniff things out). But they have no phsyical form- they are Wraiths- and so by whatever means they bear their Rings they are not available to mortals.

After all, they cannot exist without them- if they COULD be taken from them when they die then your namesake would have gathered them all up whe he slew several.

My name sake died by a balrog

manchester is cold and dark tonight

Glorfindel the man has to apolagise (which is totaly out of charicture) :shy: :shy:
It seems that ,after more reseaerh, I have found a chapter in "The unfinished tales" which states......."THEY WERE BY FAR THE MOST POWERFUL OF HIS SERVANTS,AND THE MOST SUITABLE FOR SUCH A MISSION, SINCE THEY WERE ENTIRELY ENSLAVED TO THEIR NINE RINGS, WHICH HE NOW HIMSELF HELD.".......
Aarrhhhhhhhhhh
The chapter is called the hunt for the ring on page 343.
this then proves that not only did arogorn not use a ring but also that the wraiths did,not have their rings on them when they where washed away or killed.
Is this the end of a good thread? or more to the point is this the end of the world, as it is the first time i have argued my own point with myself and lost to myself on points?

Today in manchester it is dark and cold

aaah well, as I have said before and will say again, tolkien has written so much about his world that almost every lil' significant details is writen down somewhere

... except the names of the other two Istari...

I think its time for a new thread

well....his world is very detailed but still...not perfectly complete.

EDIT - keep the pics to the pic-thread

the elves can use their rings because the one is not on the hand of its master, Sauron the Deciever. The ringwraiths fell into the service of the one ring while sauron was using to pummel mens heads in and smack their puny bodies out of the stadium.