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No amulet blasts.

All-out fight onboard the Invisible Hand.

Who takes it?

I believe Team 2 wins this one, not an easy fight at all for them, though.

Hmm... to close for me to call.

Team 2 takes this Palpatine is already the strongest sith ever by this time. And Mace was nearly able to kill him, not to mention his shatterpoint and vapaad will come in handy when fighting. Mace by himself is probaly stronger then ulic. He can at the very least give Revan a run for his money.

As good as Revan and Ulic are, Mace and Sidious could be just a little bit better with a saber and Sidious has the force advantage, even on Revan.

Maybe Revan is slightly better in saber combat than Mace, but not enough to make the difference anyway.

This is a very hard fight indeed!

POST-KOTOR Revan is an exceptional match for ROTS Palpatine. When these two will engage, it will be a long and hard duel.

Now the clash between Ulic Qel Droma and Mace Windu will actually decide the fate of this duel. Both are master swordsmen though.

Anyways, I am not giving a conclusion yet...

The RotS novelization confirms that Yoda was the 'most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known' until Luke came along. Like it or not, that puts Yoda above any incarnation of Revan. Sidious is Yoda's equal, so he would naturally be stronger than Revan as well. This will be difficult, however, but Sidious and Mace should win.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
This is a very hard fight indeed!

POST-KOTOR Revan is an exceptional match for ROTS Palpatine. When these two will engage, it will be a long and hard duel.
In terms of lightsaber skills i dont know

Originally posted by Gideon
The RotS novelization confirms that Yoda was the 'most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known' until Luke came along. Like it or not, that puts Yoda above any incarnation of Revan. Sidious is Yoda's equal, so he would naturally be stronger than Revan as well. This will be difficult, however, but Sidious and Mace should win.

Dude, haven't we been over this? That was entirely Yoda's POV on the matter, it's not canon fact.

shut your pie hole Noobaris, everything canon you don't agree with is "debatable". I'm a Revan fanboy and even I can accept canon fact. This why you're a tool.

Yoda's POV is not a canon fact you dumb ****. He's fallible, and subject to being wrong. He quite clearly is in this case, how the hell is he supposed to know that he's the most powerful for the darkness has ever faced? Does he even know who Revan is?

Originally posted by Apollo Cloud
Yoda's POV is not a canon fact you dumb ****. He's fallible, and subject to being wrong. He quite clearly is in this case, how the hell is he supposed to know that he's the most powerful for the darkness has ever faced? Does he even know who Revan is?

Except it was stated by the omniscient character, not Yoda you Tool. Quit while you're behind.

Apollo, I'm a Revan fanboy as well, but canon is canon and you simply have no choice but accept it.

Originally posted by Apollo Cloud
Dude, haven't we been over this? That was entirely Yoda's POV on the matter, it's not canon fact.

The omniscient narrator said this to be true.

Team 2.

Originally posted by Gideon
The RotS novelization confirms that Yoda was the 'most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known' until Luke came along. Like it or not, that puts Yoda above any incarnation of Revan. Sidious is Yoda's equal, so he would naturally be stronger than Revan as well. This will be difficult, however, but Sidious and Mace should win.
Just wondering, where does it say that Revan is stronger as a Jedi than as a Sith?

Originally posted by darthsith19
Just wondering, where does it say that Revan is stronger as a Jedi than as a Sith?

Malak says it after his defeat.

I agree with POV of zephiel7!

Revan was so strong and skilled that he single-handedly easily killed two powerful Terentatek beasts in the Tomb of Naga Sadow in a single combat. And it is a well established fact that Terentateks are dubbed as Jedi slayers or killers and feast on the blood of Force sensitives. This feat alone speaks volumes about his capabilities.

Apart from this, what he accomplished in that huge battle of Star Forge was amazing and he was declared as the "The Prodigal Knight" by a famous Jedi Master of his age, for such an achievement.

Revan will give ROTS Sidious a very hard and long fight, which can go either way or result in a stalemate situation.

The duel between Ulic Qel Droma and Mace Windu however will actually decide the fate of this battle.

I think that Mace is possibly better then Ulic. Thus in my opinion, Team 2 has a slightly better chance for gaining victory in this fight.

Lightsnake, it was from Yoda's POV, that's all.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Which is utter bull shit, as he was trained at a young bullshit and his deeds, while unknown, are legendary
I never knew that unknown deeds are often considered to be legendary!

And Yoda did not became uber powerful over-night.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Yoda is more powerful than Revan. Fact
By a very small margin, I would agree!

And Revan knows some techniques that Yoda does not.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
According to Malak, he is.
Malak got stunned by the amazing display of power that Revan exhibited against his entire Sith Army on Star Forge. He actually had under-estimated his Sith Mentor's power before and he admitted this in the end.

And not to forget the fact that Darth Revan was more knowledgeable then his KOTOR incarnation.

And the power and knowledge of Darth Revan was enough to over-whelm a notable Sith Lord like Darth Bane (who is considered to be a candidate for Sith'ari).

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I never knew that unknown deeds are often considered to be legendary!

And Yoda did not became uber powerful over-night.
Or, y'know, he did things that are said to be legendary and we just haven't been told about them because most his past is a mystery!
they're 'hints.'


And I'm sure the reverse is true.


When...was he 'stunned?

And less powerful

Which is great. And someone far more powerful than Bane. with all his and by extension Revan's knowledge was only able to match Yoda

RotS Sidious is not more powerful than Bane, stop being ridiculous, it's been proven over and over again that the movie characters, relatively speaking, suck ass. Bane would own Sidious in a heartbeat, case closed. Just summon up some power from his unlimited force reserves, and own him with an unlimited kamehameha wave. That's all it would take.

Originally posted by Apollo Cloud
RotS Sidious is not more powerful than Bane, stop being ridiculous, it's been proven over and over again that the movie characters, relatively speaking, suck ass. Bane would own Sidious in a heartbeat, case closed. Just summon up some power from his unlimited force reserves, and own him with an unlimited kamehameha wave. That's all it would take.

It's proven over and over again? Good lord Noobaris, you throw around this exact argument and it gets DESTROYED each and everytime. Bane would own Sidious in a heartbeat? But I'm glad you can prove your case. Oh wait, you spew bullshit and continually embarass yourself. Bane couldn't shine Sidious' shoes.

I just did. Sidious isn't powerful enough to stand up to someone with access to unlimited force reserves. He failed to overpower fricking Yoda, a being who struggled against catching a relatively light pillar that was falling down at a pretty low speed. Bane, who could casually move around moons, is >>>>>>>>> Yoda, and >>>>>>>>> Sidious.

Bane can't pwn Sidious in a heartbeat, seriously.

Originally posted by Apollo Cloud
I just did. Sidious isn't powerful enough to stand up to someone with access to unlimited force reserves. He failed to overpower fricking Yoda, a being who struggled against catching a relatively light pillar that was falling down at a pretty low speed. Bane, who could casually move around moons, is >>>>>>>>> Yoda, and >>>>>>>>> Sidious.

You just did? LOL... Still in denial huh Noobaris. It's sad that you have to make shit up in order to compensate for your lack of debating skills.
1. There is no unlimited force reserves, good try
2. POD retconned BOTS and it was proven, you lost that debate as you lost this one.
3. By TPM Sidious already pwns bane, you lose.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Or, y'know, he did things that are said to be legendary and we just haven't been told about them because most his past is a mystery!
they're 'hints.'
And you failed to note that his most notable deeds are already known.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
And I'm sure the reverse is true.
Are you trying to say that Yoda is far more powerful then Revan?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
When...was he 'stunned?
He was actually shocked by Revan's power and that's why he speculated that KOTOR Revan was stronger then his Sith incarnation. He even admitted that he had under-estimated Revan before. But since he was very brave and was well prepared for combat in Star Forge, he did not showed any signs of fear but he did showed signs of frustrations.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
And less powerful
From Malak's POV only.

Darth Revan has also performed some impressive feats. And his knowledge was immense and not to forget that he knew many offensive techniques as well. It was actually the power and knowledge of Darth Revan that amazed Darth Bane.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Which is great. And someone far more powerful than Bane. with all his and by extension Revan's knowledge was only able to match Yoda
Darth Bane is not so weak as you consider him to be. It was due to his actions that Sith became powerful once again. And Bane never learned all the techniques that Revan knew.

I would however agree that Darth Sidious is more powerful then him.

And Sidious actually used only the following two things against Yoda:

- Force Lightning
- TK

This was enough to stop Yoda. He never used his entire Sith knowledge to stop Yoda. Guess what? think before saying something.

Yes, there is. The orbalisks constantly pump Bane up with darkside energies, giving him an infinite supply to use at his disposal.



No it doesn't, PoD in no way retcons the entire story, only aspects of the story.



Nice how you provided an argument.



Now let's put things into perspective.

PT Yoda struggled at lifting a pillar brought down by Dooku, which really wasn't too heavy, and really wasn't moving at too great a speed.

RotS Sidious failed to overpower that pussy.

Bane, by BotS, with the added power of the orbalisk armour, was capable of casually moving a moon, something roughly a gazillion times heavier than that tiny pillar that Yoda struggled with.

Now I'm not going to argue that telekinesis, force defence, and general force strength and mastery are all directly proportional, because they're not, but those facts above should make it pretty obvious that Bane is far above anybody from the PT movies (given those are the two top dogs).

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
And you failed to note that his most notable deeds are already known.
You want to prove up or shut up there?


No. More powerful by a nice margin, though


Where the hell was he 'stunned?'

Hypocrisy abound. Malak says Revan is stronger than he was as Dark Lord. Forgetting that?

Wowswers! and someone with all Bane and Revan's knowledge was only able to stalemate Yoda!


Yes he did. It stated in the book 'all of his Dark Side knowledge would soon belong to Bane.'
Wowsers!

Not 'would appear.' He is

Oh, good lord, what stupidity. What ultra super techniques did Revan use in all his battles against Mandalore, Yusanis and Malak? Huh? Hm? We know Palp knows a lot more. We know Yoda and Palpatine know a lot.

But this pathetically whiny 'BUT IN THE MOVIES! I CAN';T ACCEPT IT!'
Crap annoys me the most.
Guess what? Think before spouting off. Knowledge doesn't make a victory. Power and skill do

Yoooou're a liaaaaaaaaaar. He catches it and tosses it asid.e And alter lfits a mountainside with no effort.
Mooooooroooon

Palpatine and Yoda are officially approved to be stronge.r
sooooorrry.
And he didn't moooove, a mooooon, that's coooonjeeeecture

Naaaah. You're just a fanboy idiot who wishes he could bloiw Bane.

Your opinion doesn't matter. Lucas's does

I'm not a liar, he catches it, and struggles, as can be seen by the way his face gets all screwed up, his hands tremble, his entire body shakes, the fact that he almost loses balance, and only just pulls off the feat. I don't care about what he does with a mountainside (which doesn't compare anyway btw), non valid contradictory to the movies EU material doesn't interest me.



No they're not.



Yes, he did. Been proven before, and the funny things is, you accepted the proof before, yet only started arguing against it when it was pointed out how it puts Bane above your loverboy.



You're right, I do wish I could bloiw Bane.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
You want to prove up or shut up there?
You are making no sense in this case. Can you even prove that the unknown legendary deeds of Yoda are better then his most notable known ones?

Yoda actually engaged in some serious challenges during the PT, Clone Wars and OT periods. His most impressive feats are already known to us.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
No. More powerful by a nice margin, though
A stupid assumption. Prove it...

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Where the hell was he 'stunned?'
What about his signs of Frustrations?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Hypocrisy abound. Malak says Revan is stronger than he was as Dark Lord. Forgetting that?
Did you noticed this line: He actually had under-estimated his Sith Mentor's power before and he admitted this in the end.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Wowswers! and someone with all Bane and Revan's knowledge was only able to stalemate Yoda!
Using only two techniques. And that was enough for such a devastatingly powerful Jedi, WOW!

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Yes he did. It stated in the book 'all of his Dark Side knowledge would soon belong to Bane.'
Wowsers!
Just a random quote. And Bane demonstrated very few powerful techniques after getting some training from Revan, which include: A) Force Wave & B) Thought Bomb

Guess what? Revan knows far more then these two techniques and Bane did not learned all from him. But even with a limited training from Revan, Bane managed to alter the faith of the Sith.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Not 'would appear.' He is
Did I said "would appear" or anything like that?.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Oh, good lord, what stupidity. What ultra super techniques did Revan use in all his battles against Mandalore, Yusanis and Malak? Huh? Hm? We know Palp knows a lot more. We know Yoda and Palpatine know a lot.
Let me guess? How would you know that how many techniques Revan have used in combat against several powerful opponents?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
But this pathetically whiny 'BUT IN THE MOVIES! I CAN';T ACCEPT IT!'
Crap annoys me the most.
Guess what? Think before spouting off. Knowledge doesn't make a victory. Power and skill do
I never said that knowledge matters the most but it does plays a vital role. For example, if you know more about several offensive techniques and have practised them, you get a wide variety of options to use in combat.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
You are making no sense in this case. Can you even prove that the unknown legendary deeds of Yoda are better then his most notable known ones?
Considering they involve killing Sith and a 'legion of triumphs' against the Dark Side...

Prove up or shut up


Okayed by Lucas to be the most powerful. There we go


Which were....?


Surprise, sure. Stunned?


As opposed to all the Sith techniques Revan and Exar Kun and Naga Sadow use in their duels.
have a point?


Argue withe narrarator not me. All of revan's dark side knowledge was contained in the holocron. FACT. Palpatine learned all of what
Bane knew later, which includes all of what Bane learned from Revan. Plus DIRECT ACCESS to the spirits of the Ancient Sith, from whose leftover knowledge Revan learned his knowledge.

Wowsers

And Bane was stated to have learned all of Revan's knowledge.
Oh, and Palpatine actively destroyed the Jedi and Republic if were comparing achievments


Thanks, end of story there


and Yoda and Palopatine had access to much more knowledge regardless

I'm not present for a couple of days and the Revan-KOTOR-fan brigade comes out of nowhere and starts spewing out garbage? Nice. Well, I have some debates to tackle, I see. I'll get on it soon. Oh, and LeGenD, remember when you denied being a Revan-fanboy? You sure did one hell of a job proving it here.

Originally posted by Apollo Cloud
I'm not a liar, he catches it, and struggles, as can be seen by the way his face gets all screwed up, his hands tremble, his entire body shakes, the fact that he almost loses balance, and only just pulls off the feat. I don't care about what he does with a mountainside (which doesn't compare anyway btw), non valid contradictory to the movies EU material doesn't interest me.
LIIIIIIIIAAAAAAR! Stupid little liar.
He catches it and throws it aside AFTER being surprised
Whoops, eU doesn't contradict, Leland chee>You, whooops!


IIIIIIIDDIIIIOT.
Official soruces say they are...Lucas okays that they are....SO THEY ARE. SORRY!!!!



In a contradictory story it was mentioned and never substantiated later, OOPS!

That's very much incorrect, Zephiel. Lightsnake, on EoD, has provided proof that George Lucas personally oversaw the contents of the RotS novelization, and Leeland Chee confirmed that direct contradictions - that is to say, actions, dialogue, and so forth - are overturned by the movies, but that the novelizations elaborate in regards to the narrative. Movies do not contradict the narrative set in place by the novelizations. A quote from a G-canon source is, actually, more concrete than anything provided from a lesser source. For example: were Revan's actions to depict him as a 'more powerful' Force user than Yoda, and it contradicted the quote Yoda would still be considered more powerful. Canon cannot be debates nor misinterpreted. Quotes are more reliable than logical deduction, and in this case, when the quote is derived from the omniscient narrator of a G-canon source, the quote is more canon that interpretation of events and actions.



This is irrelevant. Yoda's strength in the Force is now unquestionable. You can toss out examples of Revan's power all night, but the quote is from a G-canon source and thus overturns everything that contradicts it.



The status of the novelization is unquestionable, Zephiel. Direct contradictions in the form of actions and dialogue is overturned by the movies, but when it comes to the storyline, narrative, and character thoughts, it doesn't. 'The most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness has ever known'. He is more powerful than any Jedi in the history of the Order.

I'm not denying that he catches it and throws it aside, but what I'm trying to explain to you is the degree of difficulty he went through performing such a feat. Watch the video (05:19), he indeed does struggle; he's forced to drop his lightsaber, he has to put on his mean face to even catch the pillar, his hands tremble, his entire body shakes, he almost loses balance and falls over, and he only just pulls off the feat. Bane, in the same situation, would likely hurl the pillar at Dooku as if it was a pebble.



Yes it does, and Leland Chee is in no more of a position than I am to define what a contradiction is. the fact is, someone who struggles with lifting a tiny pillar can in no way lift up an entire mountain, that's just plain ridiculous.



You can say that all you want Lightsnake, but your words mean jack until you offer proof. The only 'official' sources you have ever provided have been effectively argued against (mostly by me), so either bring some new stuff to the table, or go home.



The RotS novelisation, in many ways, contradicts the movies aka the highest form of canon yet we both know that the entire source, as a whole, minus the contradictions, remains valid, and we both know you'd never argue such a thing, so the fact that you're doing the same with BotS just proves how much of a hypocritical dumbass you really are. Point is, aspects of BotS contradict with higher forms of canon, and are thus invalid, however the aspects of the story I'm dealing with do no such thing, so you have no point.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Considering they involve killing Sith and a 'legion of triumphs' against the Dark Side...
Can you provide some details here?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Prove up or shut up
A simple point is that wars provide the toughest possible challenges that a Jedi can face. Now if Yoda has engaged in some wars that were more devastating then the ones we saw in PT and OT periods, mention them here and if you can't then STFU.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Okayed by Lucas to be the most powerful. There we go

Did Lucas said that how much more powerful Yoda was from Revan?

Did he compared Revan with Yoda?

Did he even thought about old Force titans like Revan and Nihilus, when making such a remark? Ooops!

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Which were....?
Malak: "You have been a thorn in my path, since I betrayed you".

Whoops!

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Surprise, sure. Stunned?
His increased signs of frustrations showed that he was stunned.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
As opposed to all the Sith techniques Revan and Exar Kun and Naga Sadow use in their duels.
have a point?
And what are you trying to say here?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Argue withe narrarator not me. All of revan's dark side knowledge was contained in the holocron. FACT. Palpatine learned all of what
Bane knew later, which includes all of what Bane learned from Revan. Plus DIRECT ACCESS to the spirits of the Ancient Sith, from whose leftover knowledge Revan learned his knowledge.
Guess what? Revan's knowledge was enough to alter the faith of the Sith once again.

And if Bane learned everything from Revan' holocron, then why did he not demonstrated those very dangerous Sith techniques that Bane considered to be too dangerous for even Sith Lords to try?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Wowsers

And Bane was stated to have learned all of Revan's knowledge.
Oh, and Palpatine actively destroyed the Jedi and Republic if were comparing achievments
Through manipulation and support from a powerful clone military.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Thanks, end of story there
We can't argue about unknown things. Guess what? you made no sense with your point.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
and Yoda and Palopatine had access to much more knowledge regardless
Huh! right?

Revan studied not from just Korriban but also from Malachor V and Lehon. And guess what? Malachor V never existed in the time of Yoda and Sidious?

Whoops!

Originally posted by Gideon
I'm not present for a couple of days and the Revan-KOTOR-fan brigade comes out of nowhere and starts spewing out garbage? Nice. Well, I have some debates to tackle, I see. I'll get on it soon. Oh, and LeGenD, remember when you denied being a Revan-fanboy? You sure did one hell of a job proving it here.
I have already admitted that I am a fan of Revan and some other SW characters.

And defending a character is not always related to fanboyism.

And if I have proven to be a KOTOR Fanboy, then Lightsnake has more then proven himself to be a PT Fanboy.

Originally posted by Apollo Cloud
Yes, there is. The orbalisks constantly pump Bane up with darkside energies, giving him an infinite supply to use at his disposal.
Sorry, your opinion on the interpretation is irrelevant. Bane doesn't have an unlimited supply of the force.




Everything from finding nadd's holocron, to moving the moon. Your arguments about that have been destroyed countless times.




No need to. There's more than enough evidence that even TPM sidious>Bane, and since this debate has gone on so many times and you've been destroyed, there's no point in arguing with a dimwit.






Wonderful logic. I can't imagine WHY you're the worst debater on here.


That fictitious point has been destroyed, keep trying.



Denial. The #1 fanboy solution.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Did he even thought about old Force titans like Revan and Nihilus, when making such a remark? Ooops!


Legend. just accept the plain simple fact that yoda > revan, I dont care if revan is 90% or even 95% of yoda, Yoda still > him according to numerous sources and GL himself.

And by the way sidious didnt demonstrated his full powers in the movies, TPM could move faster than the eye can see.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Can you provide some details here?
I don't swee how one gets more detailed...that's what we know


Apparently a Sith or two-possibly Bane, quite a few conflicts, Dark Jedi, etc.
And, oh yes, stalemating the most powerful Sith ever


Does it matteR? He outright approved Yoda being the top

Why the **** would it matter? Does Lucas need to know every little thing before saying a fact? You think you can contradict the creator?


Where the hell is the shock, stunning, etc?


Erm...irritating doesn't mean you're shocked or stunned...


You're attempting to make a point of Palpatine only using so and so techniques in a fight...helluva lot more than two extremely powerful Sith of ancient times

And Palpatine's was enought o take over the galaxy

Gee, I dunno...maybe cause they're dangerous to try?


and, y'know, his force powers, genius and abilities


Thanks, end of story there


So what? The knowledge still did. All of it nicely recorded

You're not clever. You're not funny.

Originally posted by Apollo Cloud
I'm not denying that he catches it and throws it aside, but what I'm trying to explain to you is the degree of difficulty he went through performing such a feat. Watch the video (05:19), he indeed does struggle; he's forced to drop his lightsaber, he has to put on his mean face to even catch the pillar, his hands tremble, his entire body shakes, he almost loses balance and falls over, and he only just pulls off the feat. Bane, in the same situation, would likely hurl the pillar at Dooku as if it was a pebble.
No, he LIFTS it, so his BODY MOVES. when you MOVE, other muscles have to MOVE. No strain was shown.

But you've convinced yourself already.

Sooooooooooooooooooooorrry, you stupid little ****...oh, and Yoda likely killed Bane. What'll you say if that happens



AWWWWWW! SOOOOOORRRY! Apparently he doesn't struggle, idiot! Canon faaaaact. And on the subject, you dumbass, Chee defines what SW contradictions are, WHOOOOOOPS!



Hmmm...msotly by you...cause you take **** out of context and insult the official sources and use your deluded mind whiole you suck Bane's dick



Sorry, dumbass! But Leland Chee defined what parts of the novelization worked and Stover clarified exactly what Lucas intended!
Whoops! Sorry. BotS isn't defined as G-canon, now is it? Yoda being the strongest is narrative.


It seems your deluded fanboyism can't cope, so you invent your own little world where you hangt out, suck Bane's dick and rant about SIRAK is better than any PT figure...(*Laughter)

You're a stupid fanboy. Accept it, why don't you? Bane's powerful. He's not as powerful as you claim, so deal with it. When Yoda kills him, I will laugh at you so hard.

Just deal with it, you idiot. You've lost every debate against Gideon, Advent and Nai, again and again and again. You're just deluded enough to think you've debunked shit.

Ahem ahem and me.

And me

Originally posted by Lightsnake
I don't swee how one gets more detailed...that's what we know
Until those unknown legendary tales are revealed, I will stick to my point. Sorry! not convinced!

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Apparently a Sith or two-possibly Bane, quite a few conflicts, Dark Jedi, etc.
Compared to his fights against Dooku?

Compared to his fight against Sidious?

Compared to his fight against a large batch of Stormtroopers outside the Jedi Temple?

And to verify the claim that he possibly killed Bane, provide a source that states this.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
And, oh yes, stalemating the most powerful Sith ever
This happened during the end of Clone Wars and it is a known event.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Does it matteR? He outright approved Yoda being the top
Did I denied? No!

But what I actually said is that Revan is very very close to him, consideriing his impressive feats that speak volumes about his power.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Why the **** would it matter? Does Lucas need to know every little thing before saying a fact? You think you can contradict the creator?
He contradicts himself often.

Anyways! how about Revan being 98% of Yoda? Yeah! that sounds better!

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Where the hell is the shock, stunning, etc?


Erm...irritating doesn't mean you're shocked or stunned...
Lets call it Frustration then.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
You're attempting to make a point of Palpatine only using so and so techniques in a fight...helluva lot more than two extremely powerful Sith of ancient times
I made my point based on what I have seen in the movies and it is a G-Canon source.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
And Palpatine's was enought o take over the galaxy
And Revan's was enough to discover Star Forge, develop a powerful Sith Empire and start the conquest of the Galaxy and he would have done that but a betrayal put a good halt to his ambitions. Guess what? Not Revan's fault...

Anyways! Revan's legacy played a vital role in up-lifting of the Sith once again and the rest are the details.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Gee, I dunno...maybe cause they're dangerous to try?
That says something about Revan? Does it not?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
and, y'know, his force powers, genius and abilities
These and the ones that I mentioned.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Thanks, end of story there
No probs.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
So what? The knowledge still did. All of it nicely recorded
Prove it...

Team 2 wins, but they have a good fight on them.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
No, he LIFTS it, so his BODY MOVES. when you MOVE, other muscles have to MOVE. No strain was shown.

Right, so if I lift a pebble, my hands will tremble, my entire body will shake, and my face will be strained, yes? Yeah, more like you can't visually tell what someone looks like when they struggle with lifting something.



1. Why are you bringing this up? Until it actually happens, you have no point.

2. You're dumb if you think that officials at LFL would reveal such a huge plot element of a future highly anticipated novel before it's even been released.

3. Even if it happens, Yoda and the Council make it clear in TPM that they believed the sith to have been fully extinct for a thousand years, so any meeting between the two would 100% be non canon anyway.



How is that a canon fact? Show me a canon source that says he doesn't, and then tell me how exactly that takes precedence over the Movies.



Look Lightsnake, clearly you're madly in love with Mr Chee, so I can understand if you view him as some sort of godly being, but we who aren't madly in love with the guy know that he doesn't have authority over the English Dictionary. He doesn't define what a 'contradiction' is simply because he works for LFL.



Yeah, despite some of the most intelligent members of this forum agreeing with me (the antediluvians for example, Darth Glentract, Gideon on the NEC for instance) on the matter. I don't take anything out of context Lightsnake, I view them exactly how they're supposed to be viewed.



Yeah, I thought the point would fly right over your head. The point is, a few contradictions does not retcon the entire story, if you really couldn't see the connection I made between the two sources, then you're dumb.



Yeah, I'd suggest calming down there, it's really not that funny.



I'm sure you will, seeing as how much Yoda means to you. It'll be like Christmas coming early, huh?



In terms of losing to Advent, it's never been in a Yoda/Palpatine/Bane related debate, and if you opened your eyes a bit more, she seems to actually agree with some of my arguments (such as Bane and Zannah having a higher potential than Sidious, which I've seen her bring up as a possibility). The funny thing is, she's beaten you way more times than she's beaten me, so I really don't see why you're bringing her up. You've never even come close to beating her anyways, I've done so at least two times.

Gideon, like Advent, has defeated me in the past, but I've also defeated him as many times as he has me, so in terms of records here, you're still talking rubbish.

Nai, I've never lost too, I just know each time that he'll never give up, and it's not worth my time arguing against someone who can't even speak English properly.

So Unluuuuuuucky Lightsnake, but you just got owneeeeeeed.
Ups!

Show you a canon source that he DOESNT struggle? Gee and all this time I thought you not knowing the rules of debate was purely speculation. Hey jackass, prove he was struggling because the evidence is against you.




If lightsnake is in love with Mr Chee, you're definitely in love with stupidity. You look dumber everytime you contradict facts.




Agreeing with you? Good lord you really ARE in denial aren't you? I don't recall a single time someone has agreed with you on an important issue. I realize that you have to make shit up in order to convince yourself that you AREN'T useless, but it's just getting sad.




Except for the fact that those few contradictions ARE retconned, so there's no proof, or in fact there's nothing to suggest Bane found Nadd's holocron(if such a thing ever existed), or that Bane moved a moon. Try again tool.




At least Lightsnake's alleged Yoda fanboyism is backed up by facts and quotes. Your verbal fellatio of Bane is backed up by pure bullshit from you.




Uh, Advent has never agreed with you in any way, shape, or form. The fact that you have to lie to yourself to convince yourself and others is really sad. Sad, not funny. And the fact that you have to sit there and tell yourself and others that you've beaten advent, is hilarious. The forum's worst debater is a self proclaimed debating prodigy. Talk about irony. Bane and Zannah having a higher potential than Sidious. AHAHAHA. You're a moron.


You're definitely an idiot in denial.


Everyone here has more than likely read your arguments with Nai, and you've been curbstomped everytime.


Right, the moron whose never won an argument apparently owned somebody because he typed into a text box. Nice going jackass, you owned yourself.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

.


He contradicts himself often.
Gl is still the law weather or not he contradicts himself

Anyways! how about Revan being 98% of Yoda? Yeah! that sounds better!
Sadly yoda still > revan, i dont even care if revan is 99.999999999% of yoda, Fact remains that yoda is more powerful than revan is and i dont care how close revan is simply because it is not the point


Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

I made my point based on what I have seen in the movies and it is a G-Canon source. And g-canon proves yoda and sidious > revan



Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

That says something about Revan? Does it not? Maybe, that he knew powerful techniques but could not do that because it could have torn him apart. while sidious having the most powerful ability force storm could control it if he doesnt lose concentration

Originally posted by Kadesh
Gl is still the law weather or not he contradicts himself
I do agree.

Originally posted by Kadesh
Sadly yoda still > revan, i dont even care if revan is 99.999999999% of yoda, Fact remains that yoda is more powerful than revan is and i dont care how close revan is simply because it is not the point
Once again! I never denied this fact.

I agree that Yoda > Revan but by small margin. While LS proudly told me that Yoda is miles ahead of Revan, which is not at all true.

Revan is between Anakin Skywalker and Yoda in terms of over-all power.

The list is much like this:

Sidious > Yoda > Revan > Mace > Anakin > Dooku > Obi-Wan

Originally posted by Kadesh
And g-canon proves yoda and sidious > revan
ROTS Novelization? I agree!

Originally posted by Kadesh
Maybe, that he knew powerful techniques but could not do that because it could have torn him apart. while sidious having the most powerful ability force storm could control it if he doesnt lose concentration
I can't speculate on this because I do not know much about these techniques but Revan did had firm control over what he did.

Let's all get in touch with our inner child and give it an ass beating. Seriously. Let's not bash the hell out of each other unless it is absolutely necessary.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Until those unknown legendary tales are revealed, I will stick to my point. Sorry! not convinced!
We know he's killed numerous Dark Siders, fought in numerous Dark Siders and has quite probably killed Bane.
Enough for you?



Yes, point? Yoda's done a lot of impressive things, that do put him above Revan. I'm tired of people claiming he's done absolutely nothing for abour 800 years, though
As for Bane: It's entirely possible he was alive, given the lifepsans of Dark Siders. We know Bane was killed by Jedi, we know Yoda is one of the only Jedi who knows of the Rule of Two, GL said if he ever made another movie, he'd like to set it in the past with yoda fighting Sith, we know yoda has killed Sith...
The dots can be connected


I'll go with this


And until he contradicts himself on this, it's law

OH, whatever. Semantics are not worth it

fine


Go right ahead


Um, last I checked: Revan was cornered when Malak fired, A...and B, Revan put a psychotic like MALAK in charge in a ship when Malak had proven himself ambitious, dangerous and sadistic...

And Palpatine was still much greater than any other


Why does 'knowledge' of something equal having done it?


Yes


1. Bane's Holocron.
2. nihilus's holocron.
3. The Jedi archives, Great Holocron, numerous Sith holocrons....

Originally posted by Apollo Cloud
Right, so if I lift a pebble, my hands will tremble, my entire body will shake, and my face will be strained, yes? Yeah, more like you can't visually tell what someone looks like when they struggle with lifting something.
There was no strian. He takes a moment to snag it in midair, lifts it and hurls it aside.
Sorry



And logically, it probably did

And you're an idiot if you're incapable of connecting the dots

False: Ki-Adi Mundi does. IT's made clear Yoda knows better as he's actually, y'know, FOUGHT Sith before. It's known Sith have died fighting Jedi in Bane's order...
HMMMMMMM



It takes place over your interpretation of the movies. The novelization doesn't say he struggles...and given his toher feats...whoops, he doesn't


He says there's no contradiction between the sources.
He's canon. Your interpretation isn't.



Show me a single Antediluvian agreeing with you. Yeah, I am calling you a liar, here.
You do take things out mof context. Gideon even pounded this into your skull and you still refused to get it.


The entire premise of the story is a contradiction. The rule of Two, Dxun and Onderon needing to be moved, Kaan's spirit, Qordis dying when Bane left him behind, Bane having tried to save the Brotherhood, warning against the Thought Bomb...



The downfall of your fanboyism will be a cause to celebrate



Um, yeah, whatever. Advent's my friend so I'm not going to rant about who's better than who. I'm capable of arguing with advent when the time comes. You are not. Nai nand Gideon have also handed you your ass numerous times.

No, you lie, twist facts, ignore canon and generally act irritating.
You're almost universally disliked. Coincidence?

He gives up because you refuse to accept any logic. It's not worth it

I'm sorry it took me so long to post, I nearly suffocated from the Cloud of Revan Fanboyism, and thus had to wait 'til it cleared. So, let's set a few things straight here : LeGenD, you cannot dictate that Revan is "98%" of Yoda. There's no basis for it, and such a calculation is - quite frankly - coming out of your ass. He's weaker by a margin. Not a large margin, but you can't say that they're neck-and-neck, either.

Furthermore, what's with the comparisons of Revan's feats versus Sidious's? No matter how you'd like to spin it, Sidious's accomplishments were better than Revan's. In fact, if you'd like to get purely technical, while Sidious had 'manipulation and a powerful clone army', Revan had an extensive army as well and legions of Sith at his disposal, and he still failed.

Originally posted by Gideon
I'm sorry it took me so long to post, I nearly suffocated from the Cloud of Revan Fanboyism, and thus had to wait 'til it cleared. So, let's set a few things straight here : LeGenD, you cannot dictate that Revan is "98%" of Yoda. There's no basis for it, and such a calculation is - quite frankly - coming out of your ass. He's weaker by a margin. Not a large margin, but you can't say that they're neck-and-neck, either.

Furthermore, what's with the comparisons of Revan's feats versus Sidious's? No matter how you'd like to spin it, Sidious's accomplishments were better than Revan's. In fact, if you'd like to get purely technical, while Sidious had 'manipulation and a powerful clone army', Revan had an extensive army as well and legions of Sith at his disposal, and he still failed.

Obviously I agree Revan is not 98% of Yoda and that Sidious' accomplishments are better than Revan's, but... I don't know, saying the last thing you said (even though I know it's true) makes him sound like... not powerful... kinda weak actually... so, I just ask you for the next time, can you not make him sound like he was weak?

Revan isn't weak. But when people take his accomplishments out of context, I take it upon myself to put it back into perspective. While he is certainly both one of the most powerful Sith and one of the greatest, Sidious is better in both categories. Actually succeeding in wiping out the Jedi Order, destroying the Republic, and conquering the galaxy by way of intellect and manipulation is far more impressive than anything... well... anybody did.

Ok, I don't see why I should debate with you if you'll just continue to ignore visual evidence. I posted the video, I posted the exact time the event happens, and I posted everything Yoda clearly does, visually, to indicate a struggle. If you're too much off a fanboy to accept plain visual evidence, than I'm just wasting my time arguing with you and should just stick to arguing against the real debaters like Gideon.



No, logically, it clearly didn't. The time frames don't add up for one. Even if it did, for the time being, we don't know, so it holds no value in this debate, and we can only assume that if it does indeed happen, Yoda was exponentially more powerful when he was younger than how he was in the PT times, or Bane was too old and way past his prime (as for a Yoda and Bane matchup to makes sense, bane would have had to be like 300 years old or something.



Lol, 'connecting the dots?' Is that what you call buying into a red herring like a b1tch?



Dude, Ki-Adi-Mundi may be the one who brought it up, but Yoda just completely went along with it, and didn't in any way correct Ki-Adi. The same goes with Mace, who apparently knew about it too. A major tenant of the Jedi Code is to not be deceptive, and Yoda (and Mace) had no reason to be deceptive in that situation, so I'm viewing all these sources that say Yoda's fought sith and knew about the Ro2 as invalid, as they contradict the movies.



Lol, so because the novelisation doesn't say he struggles, there's absolutely no room for visual interpretation of the movies..

1. The novelisation might just not be elaborating.

2. The novelisation contradicts in many areas, this could be one of them.

3. Movies > novelisation. It's not so much as interpretation on my part as it is plain fact; Yoda does struggle with the task, get over it.



Again, he has no authority over the English Language, no matter how 'canon' he is.



Look, what you and Darth Sexy seem to think I'm implying is that some random antediluvian quoted one of my posts and added an 'I agree' at the bottom. That's not what I was saying, what I was saying was that they also share some of the views I do, and have 'argued against facts' as well, more notably claiming your sources to be either fallible or ambiguous, as I have, as they are.



No he didn't, and no I don't.



No, you're trying to state your opinion as fact now. The contradictions behind Kaan and Quordis' spirits are minor contradictions, that in no way effect the story. Onderon and Dxun being too far away to just cross through is in no way a contradiction, it's perfectly explained how they had been slowly orbiting further and further away from each other for thousands of years, until they were too far apart. The Ro2, and the other stuff you mentioned, I'll admit, are quite big ones, but I see no reason to discount the rest of the story, especially when some aspects, such as the orbalisks, have been referenced in other sources. Really Lightsnake, you know I'm right, you flat out agreed with the thread where I proved that Bane pulled a moon out of orbit, and even used it in topics at EoD when arguing that Bane > Exar, and only started coming up with this retcon bullshit when I owned you in a Bane versus Yoda topic.



I'm sure it would be.



Yeah, right, lol. Dude, you know Advent's better than you, stop acting like you're better but won't say so because you're such good friends . In fact, I bet if she were to be 100% honest (which she wouldn't due to recent events), she'd say I > you. Same with Gideon. I'm actually willing to bet that Advent probably finds me the hardest to debate against, when I'm at my best. So please, don't go there, you've never not be owned by Advent when you've had conflicting views, I've actually beaten her at least two times, so base don records, you're still losing.



No, I really have.



Me? Talk about yourself Lightsnake, weren't you actually basically owned off of this forum 6 months ago, and left crying for months before you came back? Please, don't go there.



Lol, no, he never gives up, which is exactly my point. The argument would go on for days and days until each reply was ten posts long. It's not worth my time to argue with someone so persistent.

Originally posted by Apollo Cloud
Ok, I don't see why I should debate with you if you'll just continue to ignore visual evidence. I posted the video, I posted the exact time the event happens, and I posted everything Yoda clearly does, visually, to indicate a struggle. If you're too much off a fanboy to accept plain visual evidence, than I'm just wasting my time arguing with you and should just stick to arguing against the real debaters like Gideon.
Because you're using your interpretation when everything else disagrees with you.
Yoda isn't mentioned to struggle and does far more powerful things. Sorry



*YAWN*
Dark Siders can live very long times and with these godly Orbalisks, Bane can apparently live long.
And Yoda was more pwoerful when he was younger? You're a ****ing liar.
Bane would be a bit over 200, btw. Unless he's pathetically weak as a Sith, this shouldn't be a bother.

Huh.



It's called ;using logic.' Which your Bane blowing brain can't comprehend

Where? It's clear Yoda knew better as he knows of the Ruke of Two and has killed Sith before. Whoops!
Btw, 'deception' isn't not chiming in.
You're an absolute idiot, especially as Lucas said if there ever was another movie, it'd be yoda in the past fighting Sith.
Aand Yoda states the Rule of Two...IN THE MOVIEs



And he does more impressive things in the EU.
Idiot

Or you're wrong.
Idiot

Not in this case.
Idiot

Yet Lucas, the incredibly detailed word byt word editor didn't see fit to say Yoda struggled.
He doesn't struggle.




Big deal. He's saying your interpretation is wrong and the EU feats are canon.
Sorry



Wow, one post. When was the last time an antediluvian backed up your bullshit? The most you've ever had lately is Nai tearing you down



Liar. Idiot.



Sorry, you stupid ****er:
Bane's entire thought process? CONTRADICTION
Kaan being there? Major part of the story, CONTRADICTION
Onderon and Dxun? CONTRADICTION
Rule of Two there? CONTRADICTION.

Sorry, only the orbalisks are still canon, the rest has been effectively debunked. And you proved jack shit. Onderonj and Dxun= always naturally close to eachother. So there was nothing to pull. No onscreen evidence, sorry




This is just funny. Again, I won't let you twist anything into this. If Advent wants to post, she's more than welcome, but you attempting this is low. Even for a little Bane sucker like you.
Advent finds you the hardest to debate against, I agree.
Because you're an absolute idiot who can't accept logic or anything. You're not a good debater. Just a stubborn, stupid fanboy idiot.
And you've never once beaten her




No, you lie-you even ADMITTED THIS- you twist facts, you take things out of context and ignore anything that you don't like

Go back under your rock and dream of jerking Bane off. Wanna talk about the time you kept getting banned, Count Kent?



He outright stated he was done with you because you're a rock headed moron

Gosh, I actually feel like I'm arguing with a 6 year old here. Lightsnake, what you need to understand is just because it's not elaborated on by an LFL official whether he struggled or not, that doesn't mean that we can't infer whether he did or not from the movies. Seriously man, do you actually need to be spoon fed information from canon officials for you to accept it? I've posted the video, I've posted the exact time of the video that you should watch so as to save you time, I've explained exactly what we see in the movie, which can only be interpreted one way. One does not shake their entire body unless they are going through some severe sort of exertion. One does not strain their face as tightly as Yoda did if they're not being forced to put in their utmost effort to complete the task. Now I'm not saying that that's the upper limit of Yoda's TK powers, not at all; all I'm saying is that it's close to it, going by the amount of difficulty he faced performing the feat, thus Yoda performing much harder feats with more ease with no significant improvement is 100% inconsistent with the movies. if you still don't get this, you're either a lot dumber than I originally thought, or much more of a fanboy than I originally thought. Either way, you've lost this point, wait no hold up... you've been 100% owned on this point and you're coming off as such a joke. Disagree yet again by stating that canon sources disagree with me (even though you have in no way provided proof for that claim), prove my point on how much of a joke you really are, go on big boy.



In the EU... How can you still not get this, The EU stuff is completely inconsistent with the movies.



Yet his spirit (which always take the form of the person as they were when they died) in Legacy portrays him as a rather young muscular guy. The times don't add up.



Way to read dumbass, I said that if Yoda were to really have beaten Bane, one of the only logical explanations is that he was exponentially more powerful when he was younger, because, as things stand, PT Yoda doesn't compare to BotS Bane. I never actually made the claim that Yoda was absolutely more powerful when he was younger, so as I've said in other threads, learn to read.



Which doesn't add up with the way he's portrayed in Legacy...



It's not just the fact that he was aging, it's also a known fact that continued use of the force wears away at your physical body, so physically, he would undeniably be a lot weaker. And really, 'unless he's pathetically weak as a sith, this shouldn't be a bother?' You just self owned yourself there with that statement, I guess the fact that Palpatine's aging process was such a bother (to the point where he was dying) makes him a 'pathetically weak sith,' huh?

UPS!



Right, because believing that an LFL employee would just go and inform everyone of a major plot element of a highly anticipated future novel is totally logical.



OK, my bad, I forgot about the Ro2 thing, so well done, I'll concede on this one, you win. I'm still owning your every other point, so really, it's no big deal for me, I'll let you have this.

You know what, strike that, I care too much about my interwebz reputation to concede like that, so....

Whoops! You lose! Soooooooorry!



Movies > EU, dumbfvck.



Or I'm right, dumbfvck.



Your wrong! Ups!



Lucas didn't see it fit to change a number of details that contradict his movies. Are you going to deny that Kit Fisto was stabbed, and not decapitated, simply because 'LVC4$ L1nEZ 3d!Ted M4TTh3VV St0\/3r'?

Point is, Lucas line editing the novel didn't prevent contradictions arising, so the simple fact that he line edited it doesn't grant the novelisation immunity from being retconned by the movies, like you would have people believe.



As I've said before, I really don't care about whatever you and Mr Chee talk about in the bedroom, that's your business. Fact is, he still doesn't get to define what a contradiction is, and placing his opinion over mine is appeal to authority, logical fallacy.



The antediluvians that count (Illustrious, IKC, Janus) all argued the same 'arguing against canon' stuff that I do, is my point. They're the most intelligent members here, so they arguing the same thing bodes well for my point. I'm not trying to appeal to that fact or anything, just bringing it up to counter your 'noone agrees with you' line.



SidiousHumper. Whoops, sorry!



Again, you're wrong; it's explain in BotS how the moon and the planet had been orbiting away from eachother for thousands of years, so they may have once been close, but that was no longer the case, ergo no contradiction. Get it yet, you bumbaclot?!

Now I can only repeat myself, and say this: there are contradictions inside BotS, but we both know that retcons work on a case by case basis, and only the stuff that contadicts is rendered invalid, not the entire story itself. I'm not using any of the retconned material from BotS, so you continuously spouting out that BotS was retconned is 100% irrelevant. Facts are, Nadd's holocron? Not retconned. The orbalisk armour? Not retconned. Dxun and Onderon orbiting away from eachother for thousands of years? Not retconned. That's the only sh1t I've been using from BotS, and none of it is retconned.



Either way, I've gotten closer to it than you ever have. Bring her here, I bet she'd attest to the fact that I do better against her than you do. Seriously, you suck ass. You lie, you misconstrue things, you flat out don't make sense most of the time, you're constantly vague, not always purposefully, you hardly ever back up what you say, your grammar, spelling, quoting and spellcheck skills are hardly better than Kadesh's and your ad hominem tactics are truly lame. Face it man, you flat out suck donkey dick in debates (you can't touch my alliterreration), and until you up your game, I don't think I'm gonna waste any more time with someone who posts 'whoops, Liar!' at the end of the majority of my posts.



I admitted to lying...OUTSIDE OF DEBATES. If I lie on whether I am or am not a random socked member has no relation on whether or not I lie during debates. The fact is, you've never caught me out on a lie (because I don't), I've caught you out a bunch of times.



Wow, great tactic, accuse me of being someone who clearly is not me. How about I accuse you of being Hockage Yoda? Or how about Darth Dan The Man?



Yet he continued.. as I've said, he's a loser who can't speak english properly, has way too much time on his hands, and is the biggest persistent fvck on the entire forum.

a.) I've bolded the 'unstoppable' moniker you credit to Revan, to point out that it isn't true, for the simple reason that he was - y'know - stopped.

b.) Revan failed to prepare for an eventuality that ended his 'rule'. While that isn't necessarily a bad thing (Grand Admiral Thrawn and Palpatine also suffered similar betrayals), the difference is, Palpatine had already achieved something that Revan didn't: mastery of the galaxy as a whole.



I surely do.



Yes, LeGenD, let's detail those personal reasons: Anakin wanted Sidious alive so he could save Padme from her death. Now, let's see... who was the person who got that thought stuck in Anakin's head in the first place? Hmm... aaah... yes... could it be Palpatine? So, thanks for owning yourself. Saved me the... well... time...



Let's compare: Palpatine's apprentice was actually destined by the greatest prophecy in the galaxy to destroy him and his lineage, yet Palpatine transformed him into his manservant for twenty years. Revan was betrayed by a relatively unintelligent brute who functioned as his best friend, closest ally, and friend. Once again, Revan gets the short end of the stick.

Furthermore, 'his mighty Empire' continued to rule the galaxy until years past his first death. In fact, the only reason the Rebels managed to gain a foothold is because of warlordism that took place when Palpatine was dead. I hope you're not trying to compare 'empires' either, 'cuz Palpatine's Empire >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Revan's Empire.

Lastly, the final time Palpatine was betrayed was... oh, wait... after the death of his clone...

Revan was betrayed by a moron while they both were alive. Palpatine's betrayal occured from the Chosen One and the second time while he was dead.



Revan set a goal. Revan did not achieve that goal. He failed. Is he a failure? No. Is he a genius? Yes. Is he one of the greatest Sith? Oh, most definately?

Now, are Palpatine's accomplishments greater? Yes, by far.

Originally posted by Gideon
a.) I've bolded the 'unstoppable' moniker you credit to Revan, to point out that it isn't true, for the simple reason that he was - y'know - stopped.
I concede this.

And Sidious was also stopped. So we can say that both of them were not unstoppable.

Originally posted by Gideon
b.) Revan failed to prepare for an eventuality that ended his 'rule'. While that isn't necessarily a bad thing (Grand Admiral Thrawn and Palpatine also suffered similar betrayals), the difference is, Palpatine had already achieved something that Revan didn't: mastery of the galaxy as a whole.
You forgot about the Rebellion, mate!

The same Rebellion that can be credited for destruction of two Death Stars and inflicting heavy losses on the imperial forces. So Sidious never managed to establish his absolute rule over the entire Galaxy. He however did turned the Republic in to a Galactic Empire.

And Sidious also failed to prepare for an eventuality that ended his 'rule'.

Originally posted by Gideon
I surely do.
Then I blame Sidious for his failure too.

Originally posted by Gideon
Yes, LeGenD, let's detail those personal reasons: Anakin wanted Sidious alive so he could save Padme from her death. Now, let's see... who was the person who got that thought stuck in Anakin's head in the first place? Hmm... aaah... yes... could it be Palpatine? So, thanks for owning yourself. Saved me the... well... time...
Do you remember that Anakin once remarked in AOTC that he would one day stop people from dying? This was actually an Anakin's idea, genius!

What Sidious actually did was that he convinced Anakin that Dark Side is the only path through which Anakin can achieve that feat. Anakin's own fear and arrogance however played a major role in his transformation. Sidious can only be partially credited for convincing Anakin to adopt the Dark path.

Originally posted by Gideon
Let's compare: Palpatine's apprentice was actually destined by the greatest prophecy in the galaxy to destroy him and his lineage, yet Palpatine transformed him into his manservant for twenty years. Revan was betrayed by a relatively unintelligent brute who functioned as his best friend, closest ally, and friend. Once again, Revan gets the short end of the stick.
Malak was ambitious like Revan. The Sith doctrines corrupted him to the core.

Anakin despite being prophesied to be The Chosen One became a Sith instead and played a massive role in one of the largest crimes that were committed in Star Wars history. Luke Skywalker should actually get credit for making his father realize his mistakes and redeem him. There is a reason that the Emperor feared Luke so much.

And a betrayal cannot be justified by any means regardless of who commits it. Anakin not only betrayed the Sith but he also betrayed the Jedi as well.

Originally posted by Gideon
Furthermore, 'his mighty Empire' continued to rule the galaxy until years past his first death. In fact, the only reason the Rebels managed to gain a foothold is because of warlordism that took place when Palpatine was dead.
Have you forgotten about the first major defeat of Galactic Empire in ANH? Emperor was alive at that time!

Originally posted by Gideon
I hope you're not trying to compare 'empires' either, 'cuz Palpatine's Empire >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Revan's Empire.
Revan's Empire was very strong in its time. During the Sith Empire's height, Revan's Empire governed a large swath of the Outer Rim, including much of what was formerly known as Sith Space and some core worlds of the Republic.

I however agree that Sidious created a bigger Empire but it does not matters.

Both Sith Lords managed to create a powerful Sith Empire in there times, which is a big feat.

Originally posted by Gideon
Lastly, the final time Palpatine was betrayed was... oh, wait... after the death of his clone...

Revan was betrayed by a moron while they both were alive. Palpatine's betrayal occured from the Chosen One and the second time while he was dead.
That moron was a war hero and was ambitious.

Originally posted by Gideon
Revan set a goal. Revan did not achieve that goal. He failed. Is he a failure? No. Is he a genius? Yes. Is he one of the greatest Sith? Oh, most definately?
I agree with this assessment.

Originally posted by Gideon
Now, are Palpatine's accomplishments greater? Yes, by far.
I do not dispute this. And Revan's accomplishments are second to none but only Sidious.

Wait a second. It looks like Noobaris is banned. Again. AHAH

Yeah! I noticed it also!

But he might still come back with a different login name...

Of course he will..

I wonder what it was for this time...imagine how calm it will be here now, at least for awhile....

Originally posted by Gideon
Revan isn't weak. But when people take his accomplishments out of context, I take it upon myself to put it back into perspective. While he is certainly both one of the most powerful Sith and one of the greatest, Sidious is better in both categories. Actually succeeding in wiping out the Jedi Order, destroying the Republic, and conquering the galaxy by way of intellect and manipulation is far more impressive than anything... well... anybody did.

Of course he isn't. I was just saying, but I never meant to say Revan is weak.

@ Subjekt: You mean 30 seconds?

He's....banned...HE'S BANNED! Liberty! Liberty! SANCTUARY!

How do you know he's banned??

'Account Restricted'

And that means...? Sorry, I'm kinda new here so...

Originally posted by Riverollv
And that means...? Sorry, I'm kinda new here so...
It means that a person cannot login and post in this forum through a restricted account.

Got it. Then Apollo's gone forever??

Originally posted by Riverollv
Got it. Then Apollo's gone forever??
That person can rejoin this commuity by making a new account.

Oh... that sucks.

This is stupid, LeGenD. Unlike you with Revan, I didn't claim that Sidious was 'unstoppable' in the first place.



Lmao, are you trying to cheapen his accomplishments? The Rebellion functioned as a terrorist cell, relying on guerilla warfare and such to fight. Sidious ruled the galaxy and was the undisputed dominant force in it. Hell, the fact that he did rule the galaxy is underlined by the fact that - even after his death - when warlordism tore the Empire apart, the New Republic was still the lesser government. When the Emperor returned in 11 ABY, he retook most of the galaxy and the New Republic went back to the 'Rebel Alliance' moniker.



Actually, he didn't. Hence the clones.



The difference is: Sidious succeeded and failed to maintain it forever. Revan never succeeded in the first place.



I'm glad you recognize my intelligence for what it is.

Anakin's rants in AotC don't apply. Sidious manipulated the situation and effectively gave Anakin a reason to believe that he could stop people from death. His personal reasons were the ones that Sidious wanted him to have.



Partially credited? Lmao. Sidious didn't force Anakin to turn to the dark side, but he manipulated, blackmailed, and deceived him into doing so. Anakin is at fault for making the decision, but Sidious did everything else.

Partially credited my ass.



Bingo. Revan should have been prepared for that.



This is completely stupid, it has nothing to do with the point. In fact, all you're doing is supporting mine. Anakin was the Chosen One - the ultimate force of good - the one destined to bring balance to the Force. And Palpatine turned him into a pawn of the Sith, crippled and deluded. As far as the Emperor fearing Luke, the Emperor feared an end to his rule, and saw Luke as the catalyst by which that would occur (and rightfully so).



This is stupid, and has nothing to do with the point.



Lmao! You're not getting it, dude. Nazi Germany was defeated in battles during World War II. It wasn't destroyed 'til it had suffered multiple defeats and its leaders were either killed or captured. The Rebel Alliance scoring a major victory against the Death Star means jack. Wanna know why?

Because even after the Battle of Yavin, the Empire was still - by far and far and far - the more powerful faction. Hell, there's a whole movie that deals with the simple fact that the Rebels were on the run from the Empire the entire time. I'm not saying that they didn't suffer the occasional defeat. Hell, if you'd want to get technical, the Rebels would have been assraped had Tarkin deployed the TIE Squadrons.



Palpatine's was much, much larger, much, much stronger, and it lasted longer.



It does actually. In this case, size does matter. Palpatine's Empire was vastly superior to Revan's. Fellating it or spinning it otherwise is absolutely absurd.



No... comparing Revan to Sidious is absurd given how much greater his accomplishments are than Revan's.



Means jack. Revan was much smarter and dealing with an overtly ambitious, reckless idiot.



Had no doubt.



Actually, Bane rivals Revan in terms of accomplishments. But both of them are lightyears behind Sidious. It's not close.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Revan also has shown outstanding combat prowess, idiot!
I know all of Revan's accomplishements you dim witted fanboy, I don't need a list from you. I was talking about his notable canon force feats. And what makes you assume that Revan would have a chance tossing Senate pods against Sidious?

And as far as his combat prowess, when has he ever been as impressive as Yoda? Unless your telling me Yoda's application of Ataru is not exceptionally unique to you?

Originally posted by Allankles
I know all of Revan's accomplishements you dim witted fanboy, I don't need a list from you. I was talking about his notable canon force feats. And what makes you assume that Revan would have a chance tossing Senate pods against Sidious?

And as far as his combat prowess, when has he ever been as impressive as Yoda? Unless your telling me Yoda's application of Ataru is not exceptionally unique to you?
Hey! K2 Fanboy, the feats that you mentioned regarding Revan are insignificant and it shows your ignorance.

And if a Jedi is very strong in the Force, that Jedi can lift and toss around heavy objects with ease. It is a matter of common sense.

I asked a question regarding Revan's strength in the Force from Drew Karpyshyn - the author and creater of Revan character and he gave me this reply: "Yes. Like Yoda, he could have moved a small spaceship if he really concentrated."

And Revan was exceptional in Light Saber Combat as well.

Zephiel, you are attempting to interpret Lucas's innermost thoughts on the matter, and that is absolutely - and thoroughly - ridiculous. If we go your route, all of the movie characters are slow as hell if we compare them to any EU Jedi or Sith. The movies depict them moving in fast paces during their duels, but not 'blurs' or anything that is remarkable.

Yet Leeland Chee has declared that the speeds depicted in the movies do not contradict those of the EU, meaning that Bane isn't faster than Yoda or vice versa. Lucas himself (according to Nai) has commented on the Clone Wars show commentary that the actions featured on the cartoons is how he'd imagine 'real Jedi' to be.

So, we have two sources indicating that the movies do not 'display' the best of the Jedi's capabilities, even though they are capable of them. Nai explained this quite perfectly: even now, certain techniques and processes are out of CGI and computer aid. The movies can't exactly show Yoda and Sidious dueling 'faster than the human eye can see', otherwise we'd have a blank screen.

Furthermore, Stover has said that everything told in the movies is because Lucas wanted it there. If the narrative declares Yoda 'the most powerful foe the darkness had ever known', it is so. Period. A G-canon source confirms it.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD


And if a Jedi is very strong in the Force, that Jedi can lift and toss around heavy objects with ease. It is a matter of common sense.

I asked a question regarding Revan's strength in the Force from Drew Karpyshyn - the author and creater of Revan character and he gave me this reply: "Yes. Like Yoda, he could have moved a small spaceship if he really concentrated."

And Revan was exceptional in Light Saber Combat as well.

Are you thick?

Drew K's comments unless backed up by an EU source of his own or otherwise, are worthless. He has no more weight on the matter than does any fan. So stop with these retarded statements about Drew K's comments, you only make yourself look more clueless.

Second, I don't care if Revan is an exceptional duelist or not, he's never been shown to be a match for Yoda in dueling. I'll write it again, Yoda is uniquely exceptional in dueling. Sidious was stretched to his limits just trying to keep Yoda at bay.

You clearly don't comprehend the extent of Yoda's combat abilities.

No, actually. The only person whose opinion is unanimously accepted as fact is George Lucas's. Drew could say: "Revan is more powerful than anyone, ever" and it would neither be accepted nor true.

Originally posted by Gideon
No, actually. The only person whose opinion is unanimously accepted as fact is George Lucas's. Drew could say: "Revan is more powerful than anyone, ever" and it would neither be accepted nor true.
I know that GL is the highest level of authority in Star Wars. But opinions of other Star Wars Authors are also given high importance.

And Drew does not makes silly claims. He knows his limits very well and infact all other Star Wars Authors also do.

And Drew is an expert on the subject of Revan. His views regarding Revan do hold some water.

That is irrelevant. You said that 'whatever he says gets accepted'. I am simply informing you that this is not the case. If it is, Kevin J. Anderson's opinion that we'd have to see Kun and Sidious fight if we wanted to learn who the most powerful Sith ever is would be absolute canon. Yet it isn't. At most, his opinion can only be used to 'support'. It isn't the end all be end all.

So, no. Whatever Drew says is not accepted. Only Lucas gets that distinction.



This is also irrelevant. You said that 'whatever Drew says gets accepted'. This is not the case.

Originally posted by Gideon
That is irrelevant. You said that 'whatever he says gets accepted'. I am simply informing you that this is not the case. If it is, Kevin J. Anderson's opinion that we'd have to see Kun and Sidious fight if we wanted to learn who the most powerful Sith ever is would be absolute canon. Yet it isn't. At most, his opinion can only be used to 'support'. It isn't the end all be end all.

So, no. Whatever Drew says is not accepted. Only Lucas gets that distinction.



This is also irrelevant. You said that 'whatever Drew says gets accepted'. This is not the case.
Oh man! you are taking things out of context here!

Whatever Drew will say regarding Revan will get accepted, if he wants it to get accepted. And Drew does not makes tall claims about Revan. He will never try to contradict GL in any case.

Merely putting it into perspective for you.



No. While I recognize that Drew is a source to be had on Revan, it doesn't mean that anything and everything that he says about Revan is fact. Period.



You said that 'whatever' he says about Revan is accepted. It isn't.

Originally posted by Gideon
No. While I recognize that Drew is a source to be had on Revan, it doesn't mean that anything and everything that he says about Revan is fact. Period.
Now do you actually define the authority of authors in Star Wars?

Originally posted by Gideon
You said that 'whatever' he says about Revan is accepted. It isn't.
Opinions of SW Authors are taken in to consideration by Lucas Arts before they pass final judgments on SW Characters as long as those opinions do not contradict with opinions of GL and if some do, consultations with GL are also made.

S_W_LeGenD, do you know what the definition of prodigal is?

And you're really pumping up Revans feats here, like saying he easily beat the Terentakek beasts, you'll have to back that one up. Or that he "single handedly" fought through that army, when I seem to remember him having two allies with him through those fights.

And out of curiosity, where does it say that he beat Mandalore in hand to hand combat, I've heard others say this, but I don't remember ever hearing this said.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

LOL! Now a Star Wars author is actually equal to a normal Star Wars Fan? You are surely ignorant.

Drew is an expert on the subject of Revan. Whatever he says, it gets accepted so get this thing in your thick skull.



Thicker than a box of rocks.

Let me put it to you in a way that you'll understand. You see, Revan is a fictional character who only exists in the pages of EU works. If no official licensed EU source comments on Revan's abilities, then those abilities simply don't exist.

Now, I'm not arguing about Revan's TK (it's a basic ability he should have) but I'm not going to assume that he could toss senate pods with Sidious. I'm also not going to take Drew K's comments into consideration unless he gets licence to make an EU source book or story on those abilities.

It's that simple, if you weren't so thick I wouldn't have to repeat myself. Comments by an author out of universe are no more valuable than any other fanboys comments, they share the same problem, they're both unlicensed.

Lastly, you clearly don't appreciate Yoda's combat abilities. Yoda's combat capabilities exceed anything Revan has been shown to possess.

It's in the NeC, mate. Revan killed Mandalore in hand to hand, that's true.

Though let's give credit where credit's due: Revan is a rather exceptional prodigy

Originally posted by Lightsnake
It's in the NeC, mate. Revan killed Mandalore in hand to hand, that's true.

Though let's give credit where credit's due: Revan is a rather exceptional prodigy

Revan was a prodigy (but that's expected he's one of the heroes of Kotor) but how does beating Mandalore equate to being on par with Yoda?

Mace crushed guys hand to hand that were tougher than Mandalore, does that mean we use those feats as proof of his parity with Yoda?

Yes, that's right. I decide what an authority is and what an authority isn't when it comes to Star Wars. I am Leeland Ch - no! I'm George Lucas himself, browsing an internet forum for no particular reason.

Get real.

I quite handily pointed out how stupid it is to say that Drew is an 'authority' on Star Wars simply because he delivered his opinion on Revan's power compared to Yoda's. Lucas is the only one-man-source in this universe when it comes to Star Wars. Drew is not a G-canon source, even when it concerns Revan, so his opinion on Revan is not automatically canon. Period. Otherwise, Kevin J. Anderson's opinion that The Most Powerful Sith Ever would come down to Exar Kun or Palpatine proves that those two are equals and the most powerful Sith ever. But they aren't equals, simply because he says so.




No. An author can rattle off any opinion he or she has on a character without the approval of LucasArts. They simply can't publish said opinion and attempt to pass it off as fact. Drew's opinion on Revan can be used as a source, but only in a supportive role. Simply saying that 'since Drew said this about Revan and Yoda, it must be true' is not the case.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
It's in the NeC, mate. Revan killed Mandalore in hand to hand, that's true.

Though let's give credit where credit's due: Revan is a rather exceptional prodigy

Ah, thanks snake, wasn't sure before.

And I in no way shape or form deny that Revan is a powerful individual, not to mention a well written character overall, but I do think that some hype up his abilities and feats, which really only serves to cheapen the character (see: Bane)

Originally posted by Kadesh
Right malak killed a weakened jedi who was already dying and that jedi was far below malak in power, And revan dying if he gets hit by malaks lightning? Please revan might just get knocked out or a little bit stunned as yoda did
That Jedi Knight was not greatly weakened. He was held by a Force Grip of Malak but could not resist it. If he really was greatly weakened, Malak did not needed to use a highly lethal darkside technique like Force Lightning to kill him. He could have easily killed him with a Force Choke.

And Malak is among the most powerful Force Users of his time. His attacks are highly effective and I am not surprised to see that he could kill a Jedi in a single blow. When Duron Qel Droma saw visions about Malak, he too got scared.

Originally posted by Allankles
Thicker than a box of rocks.

Let me put it to you in a way that you'll understand. You see, Revan is a fictional character who only exists in the pages of EU works. If no official licensed EU source comments on Revan's abilities, then those abilities simply don't exist.

Now, I'm not arguing about Revan's TK (it's a basic ability he should have) but I'm not going to assume that he could toss senate pods with Sidious. I'm also not going to take Drew K's comments into consideration unless he gets licence to make an EU source book or story on those abilities.

It's that simple, if you weren't so thick I wouldn't have to repeat myself. Comments by an author out of universe are no more valuable than any other fanboys comments, they share the same problem, they're both unlicensed.
Drew knows his stuff very well and he creates and writes SW EU related Stuff as well.

Originally posted by Allankles
Lastly, you clearly don't appreciate Yoda's combat abilities. Yoda's combat capabilities exceed anything Revan has been shown to possess.
I do appreciate Yoda'a combat abilities. He is the most impressive Jedi in PT & OT periods. And Revan's feats are close in terms of being impressive, if not better.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
That Jedi Knight was not greatly weakened. He was held by a Force Grip of Malak but could not resist it. If he really was greatly weakened, Malak did not needed to use a highly lethal darkside technique like Force Lightning to kill him. He could have easily killed him with a Force Choke.
Prove that he wasnt weakened and so what if that guy got choked? Weather or not your a strong force user, you can easily kill a jedi with choke if he doesnt throw up a defence or resist it. O wait he was already getting choked right? So that means he is having his life squeezed out of him so therefore malak using lighting doesnt = insta kill

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

And Malak is among the most powerful Force Users of his time. His attacks are highly effective and I am not surprised to see that he could kill a Jedi in a single blow. When Duron Qel Droma saw visions about Malak, he too got scared. While im not suprised that he killed a dying jedi knight, he could have kept them alive because he wanted to demonstrate to revan how powerful he is on the starforge and so what if duron was scared shitless of the vision of malak? That doesnt mean malak is uber powerful but powerful? Of course malak is.
Besides i doubt lightning kills a powerful jedi easily, look at yoda for example. Inferior or weaker jedis then yes but that doesnt count

Lastly killing droids doesnt mean shit weather its in huge numbers or not, you yourself told me that when i brought up the case about vader slaying dozens of droids who wielded lightsabers and is described to be at the level of jedi master swordsman

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

I do appreciate Yoda'a combat abilities. He is the most impressive Jedi in PT & OT periods. And Revan's feats are close in terms of being impressive, if not better. Doesnt better feats = you > that guy? Because yodas feats are alot greater, lifting a mountain and pulling the entire dark side of the entire planet into a single cave and using it to shield himself from vader and the emperor sensing him.

Revans greatest feat is using the entire dark side of malachor to aid him during the war i think

Originally posted by Pwned61
but I do think that some hype up his abilities and feats, which really only serves to cheapen the character (see: Bane)
Similar is the case with many other characters and not just Bane and Revan.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

During the Battle of Star Forge, a Sith Commander and Darth Malak met with each other to discuss the situation of the battle inside the Star Forge and following conversation took place between them:


Except, nothing in that conversation states that Revan was capable of single handedly fighting his way through the star forge, only that he did the majority of the work, which I would have agreed with from the get go

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

And Revan again had to face an entire army of SF Battle Droids before he went on to challenge Darth Malak in his chamber. Revan single-handedly destroyed that army as well along with those generators that were constantly developing them.

Whoops!


First off, I'd hardly call what he fought an army, an impressive number to be sure, but there's only like 6 consoles in the room, correct? Plus, it's hard to tell how that whole scene went down considering that you are capable of summoning up your own allies after all.

Leeland Chee mentioned this in TNEC.

Whoops!

Snake already covered this, but all the same sorry.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

First of all it is important to note that Force Grip is not Force Choke. The primary purpose of Force Grip is to immobilize a target and Malak actually Force Gripped those two Jedi simultaneously and was not Choking them, or else those two Jedi would have died.


Is there any cannon difference between the to? And seeing as how the in game animation between the two is identical how can you say for sure that it's one or the other? And chocking is not an instantaneous death, they could have been held there for a time being slowly suffocated without dieing.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

And Malak is a master practitioner of Force Lightning and his Lightning attacks were highly lethal. He could break the will of even a strong Jedi with his Lightning and he could even kill a Jedi quickly with his Lightning, if he wanted to do so. All this is evident from KOTOR.


We see him use force lightning twice, first on Bastila, which doesn't alone break her will, if you remember Duron's vision we see Bastila being tortured by a machine as well. The second time we see him use force lightning, it's used to kill an unarmed probably weakened jedi

If you want to see a master of force lightning, look no further than Sidious, before even his DE incarnation he was already capable of unleashing a burst of force lightning strong enough to kill a hundred storm-troopers. And before you bring it up again, I don't know of anything that proves that Revan destroyed all the scout parties in one attack.

Wookiepedia is a dubious source at best. Force grip doesn't necessarily have to apply much, if any pressure on the intended victim, other than the required amount to lift them in the air, and the like. You can "strangle" or "crush" with it, but it's not as if it has to happen within the same whim. It's definitely possible to simply use the technique to raise a target (which is noted in TotJ Companion).

(Edit)

So you're clearly mistaken if you believe that he definitely had been inflicting damage beforehand. It's useless to argue that he did, but it's also useless to argue he didn't, given that there's no indication of either case happening as far as I'm aware of.

Originally posted by Advent


So you're clearly mistaken if you believe that he definitely had been inflicting damage beforehand. It's useless to argue that he did, but it's also useless to argue he didn't, given that there's no indication of either case happening as far as I'm aware of.

It should be noted that the Jedi were clearly suffering (notice how they clutched at their throats) before Malak killed them. Malak was strangling their throats or probably just their wind pipes.

A grip doesn't necessarily have to inflict damage, but Malak was inflicting damage with his grip.

As for this argument Revan isn't on Yoda's level combat wise.

Originally posted by exanda kane
I think this is a very good point.

I think some of these "sources" need to looked at objectively for once and not taken at face value. Malak confesses that Revan is stronger as a Jedi in a highly dramatic peak of the KOTOR narrative; it is the antagonist's breaking point, the point where he sees things the way the player does, the veil is thrown down and rose tinted glasses are abandoned.

It is only fitting that the antagonist makes a confession of this kind, a send up to the character of Revan, the player themselves, a victory for the player that gives a little more than dev. credits and a new item to play around with. This compliment tells the player they have finally defeated the villain, and not only thrown him down an endless shaft, but defeated his ideals too.

Understand, it is a comment that could be considered a canon source, yet also realise that you have to put these sources into context. Malak's dying words would have got the Lucas stamp of approval because it worked for the script and the game, not because it slotted in neatly as a canonical fact.

The same could be said of Yoda's comment, not to disregard it at all.

Actually, If I remember correctly, Malak actually admits to Revan's superior power as a jedi just before their fight begins, up to that point he's still very confident in his abilities to defeat Revan, so the statement wasn't made out of fear or any sudden realization

Originally posted by Allankles
(notice how they clutched at their throats)

That's wonderful, but it's rather impossible to notice something you've never seen, can you enlighten me as to at which point in the game this happens?

Originally posted by exanda kane
I think this is a very good point.

I think some of these "sources" need to looked at objectively for once and not taken at face value. Malak confesses that Revan is stronger as a Jedi in a highly dramatic peak of the KOTOR narrative; it is the antagonist's breaking point, the point where he sees things the way the player does, the veil is thrown down and rose tinted glasses are abandoned.

It is only fitting that the antagonist makes a confession of this kind, a send up to the character of Revan, the player themselves, a victory for the player that gives a little more than dev. credits and a new item to play around with. This compliment tells the player they have finally defeated the villain, and not only thrown him down an endless shaft, but defeated his ideals too.

Understand, it is a comment that could be considered a canon source, yet also realise that you have to put these sources into context. Malak's dying words would have got the Lucas stamp of approval because it worked for the script and the game, not because it slotted in neatly as a canonical fact.

The same could be said of Yoda's comment, not to disregard it at all.

You have a valid point however it should be noted that Malak became stronger than before and as he clearly mentions, he'd unlocked the power of the Star forge to a magnitude Revan hadn't.

So while your point makes logical sense, Malak clearly knew what he was talking about, given that as the apprentice he was quite capable of gauging Revan's power.

And as much as I acknowledge the logic of your post it should be noted that much of what is 'canonical' about these characters is derived from the game, so why would we not take the comment at face value? The game is an authority unto itself in regards to this issue, why should it be invalidated (I'm not saying that you are)?

Originally posted by Advent
That's wonderful, but it's rather impossible to notice something you've never seen, can you enlighten me as to at which point in the game this happens?

If he's talking about Malak, then it happens right after you beat Bastila on the Star Forge

Originally posted by Advent
That's wonderful, but it's rather impossible to notice something you've never seen, can you enlighten me as to at which point in the game this happens?

Star forge, rigth before you face Malak and/or the star forge droids. Both Jedi are basically clutching at their throats.

Originally posted by Allankles
You have a valid point however it should be noted that Malak became stronger than before and as he clearly mentions, he'd unlocked the power of the Star forge to a magnitude Revan hadn't.

So while your point makes logical sense, Malak clearly knew what he was talking about, given that as the apprentice he was quite capable of gauging Revan's power.

And as much as I acknowledge the logic of your post it should be noted that much of what is 'canonical' about these characters is derived from the game, so why would we not take the comment at face value? The game is an authority unto itself in regards to this issue, why should it be invalidated (I'm not saying that you are)?

Evidently, you do have to take some of these comments at face value; debates like this dehumanise the stories which they are derived from and also evidently a character choice, a development or a narrative neccesity do not make for valid arguments. As for an example of a narrative neccesity right here, I'll take your comment and try and put it into context.

"You have a valid point however it should be noted that Malak became stronger than before and as he clearly mentions, he'd unlocked the power of the Star forge to a magnitude Revan hadn't."

That is certainly a valid point standing on its own, yet putting this into context, can you not see traits of an archetypal super villain Malak portrays? How many times, in various works of ficiton have you heard the main antagonist gloat to our main character or our hero about his great feats, how many times have villains described every detail of there master plan for world domination to the very person in a position to stop them?

My point is that while the comment can be taken at face value, to rely get your facts right, you need to understand the context. Malak's gloating builds the dramatic tension, we see his character, we are reminded of how we dislike him and are reassured that the next two minutes of violence are completely neccesary. He insults the player, and for that we must go ape shit in his general direction. This dialogue simply sweetens the deal when we do defeat him. Vader once gloated to Luke that he would turn to the Dark Side. Could he? No.

Of course, nonetheless, its a canonical comment, but to ask for sources and proof to reinforce you argument and give this? It's a tad silly.

Originally posted by Allankles
Star forge, rigth before you face Malak and/or the star forge droids. Both Jedi are basically clutching at their throats.

I see that now.

Though, given that I've actually watched it for myself, it doesn't even appear to be grip, merely an application of Force choke.

Originally posted by exanda kane


Of course, nonetheless, its a canonical comment, but to ask for sources and proof to reinforce you argument and give this? It's a tad silly.

Sources and proof? The game, the story, even the bland cliche dialogue are the sources, or do you only operate with source books? I find those rather unnecessary.

Originally posted by exanda kane


My point is that while the comment can be taken at face value, to rely get your facts right, you need to understand the context. Malak's gloating builds the dramatic tension, we see his character, we are reminded of how we dislike him and are reassured that the next two minutes of violence are completely neccesary. He insults the player, and for that we must go ape shit in his general direction. This dialogue simply sweetens the deal when we do defeat him. Vader once gloated to Luke that he would turn to the Dark Side. Could he? No.



Your argument misses the point though. You're arguing for its dramatic purposes, I'm arguing for its significance beyond that, and that is: an apprentice pretty much gauging that he's former master has grown stronger just as he has.

Within the context of the fictional world the statement serves no purpose beyond the fact that it is an assessment of overall power. It's not a psychological ploy, it's not a belittlement, it's not even - as you'd mentioned - an admittance of defeat by Malak.

Originally posted by Allankles
Sources and proof? The game, the story, even the bland cliche dialogue are the sources, or do you only operate with source books? I find those rather unnecessary.

The viedo game is suspect for the very medium it is; a game is entertainment for the player, to thrill the player; it is not the Star Wars bible. It will be over the top, it will deviate from tradition and it will most likely spark inconsistences. Another example of this other than KOTOR or the up and coming Force Unleashed, is Jedi Outcast; Kyle Katarn is shown as stronger than Luke Skywalker yet it is done for the purpose of entertaining the player.

The story and the dialogue are meant to entertain and enrich the player, again it is not the Star Wars bible. As I have already mentioned, the writers will forsake feasable facts for a good story and Malak's comments are a prime example of this. Yoda's comments in the RotS novelisation too, could be taken as biased and a victim of narrative neccesity.

Yes, these sources can be used as evidence; they can and have always been used, but it sometimes means taking the source completely out of context and you end up with a mistruth.

I agree, sometimes, if you want to debate something as pointless and moot as this, you simply have to use sources taken out of their context as you just don't have comparable evidence which are unbiased in nature to use. However when you make an argument out of a source as suspect as those mentioned, you really are dealing with copius amounts of self deception.

Originally posted by Allankles
Your argument misses the point though. You're arguing for its dramatic purposes, I'm arguing for its significance beyond that, and that is: an apprentice pretty much gauging that he's former master has grown stronger just as he has.
/B]


I believe your missing the point, or at least not understanding the very nature of your own example. The source has nothing else to it than dramatic purpose; it is a dramatic device, and it is used very well, but don't overcomplicate the matter, it doesn't have any significance over that. There are no two ways about it, it is a moment of high drama spoken from the main antagonist who is literally mad with power, as all super villains are.

Believe you me, the writers certainly did not intend that part of dialogue to come under such close scrutiny as to be a piece of evidence in a debate such as this and to try and garner something more out of it than that would result in unfounded assumptions. If they had intended it to come under close scrutiny, we would see something much more consistent with the portrayal Revan. Like some facts.

Dear lord, what the hell is the difference between a force grip and a force choke? It's the same ****ing movement.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Dear lord, what the hell is the difference between a force grip and a force choke? It's the same ****ing movement.

If you would've stopped to even read your sentence, you'd see that one is called "grip", while the other is "choke". That's one difference.

Force grip allows you to move the opponents around (i.e. lift them in the air), choke does not. That's two differences.

It's essentially more damaging, insomuch as you can apply different types of pressure, which are 'more powerful'. That's three differences.

Originally posted by Advent
If you would've stopped to even read your sentence, you'd see that one is called "grip", while the other is "choke". That's one difference.

Force grip allows you to move the opponents around (i.e. lift them in the air), choke does not. That's two differences.

It's essentially more damaging, insomuch as you can apply different types of pressure, which are 'more powerful'. That's three differences.

I'm not too sure about that Advent. As I recall, in Jedi Academy...Well maybe it was a force grip. My point is one is a variation of the other.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
I'm not too sure about that Advent. As I recall, in Jedi Academy...Well maybe it was a force grip. My point is one is a variation of the other.

But that still doesn't exclude the fact they still have their differences (which is what a variation is about; it's not the same thing), which is what you asked for, and what I told you. And yes, everything I said was point on.

Originally posted by Advent
But that still doesn't exclude the fact they still have their differences (which is what a variation is about; it's not the same thing), which is what you asked for, and what I told you. And yes, everything I said was point on.

Ok, I used the wrong terminology, my mistake. My initial point was that they were variations of each other, just like a force push and a force wave are variations of one another.

Originally posted by exanda kane
I believe your missing the point, or at least not understanding the very nature of your own example. The source has nothing else to it than dramatic purpose; it is a dramatic device, and it is used very well, but don't overcomplicate the matter, it doesn't have any significance over that. There are no two ways about it, it is a moment of high drama spoken from the main antagonist who is literally mad with power, as all super villains are.

Believe you me, the writers certainly did not intend that part of dialogue to come under such close scrutiny as to be a piece of evidence in a debate such as this and to try and garner something more out of it than that would result in unfounded assumptions. If they had intended it to come under close scrutiny, we would see something much more consistent with the portrayal Revan. Like some facts.

I think you've missed the basis of my point again. Yes its a dramatic device used by the devs and nothing more in the real world. Yes the devs didn't intend for it to be used as some quantifiable evidence - they never do - but it nevertheless serves a purpose beyond drama within the SW universe itself.

The star wars story writers aren't meant to care about power levels, but we still have vs threads like these. Looking at it broadly, this evidence is all the evidence there is within the bounds of this fictional universe.

EDIT: Double post

Originally posted by exanda kane
Yoda's comments in the RotS novelisation too, could be taken as biased and a victim of narrative neccesity.



There's no such thing as narrative necessity, that's why your argument is flawed. They don't have to go the "power level" route for dramatization. There's no contract that say they have to, and theres no evidence that shows they have to do that to dazzle us.

Lastly, video games are as valid a story telling medium as any book. If this isn't a part of your arguement then ignore the previous sentence.

Originally posted by Allankles
I think you've missed the basis of my point again. Yes its a dramatic device used by the devs and nothing more in the real world. Yes the devs didn't intend for it to be used as some quantifiable evidence - they never do - but it nevertheless serves a purpose beyond drama within the SW universe itself.

The star wars story writers aren't meant to care about power levels, but we still have vs threads like these. Looking at it broadly, this evidence is all the evidence there is within the bounds of this fictional universe.

I have already covered this point with my first couple of posts, and I do agree, partly. This is some of the only evidence you will get, yes, but there are certainly different levels of it, and the unbiased accounts aren't just limited to sourcebooks. The comment given, which has already been discussed, can be used, but only if you realise this is a highly limited source, and is suspect to being a mistruth.

Levels that could be described to have a firmer grip on Star Wars canon can certainly appear in sources outside of sourcebooks; KOTOR is still an example of this. The difference between reliable information in the game and suspect sources, is still the context.

A reliable quote in the game, related to Malak's comment, when placed in context, is GOTO's perspective on both Revan and Malak. Understand, if you don't find this to be a reliable source, it's open to discussion. Comparing both Sith Lords, Malak is described as crude and brutish, while Revan, subtle yet strong.

GOTO's tell the player this is general conversation, where his goal is to answer the Exile's questions and inform her. GOTO is a droid and therefore mainly deals in facts, and by his very nature, highly dramatic and unreliable dialogue aren't one of his traits. That is still evidence, in the same way as Malak's comment is , but it is on a much more reliable level in it's context.

GOTO also speculates that Revan believed the Star Forge was only a limited source of power, and therefore being subtle, he did not use it. Malak didn't posses any of Revan's subtedly, and he gloats that he has unlocked the Star Forge's power to a degree Revan never could.
This is a dramatic device, yet it also gives us a hint of Malak's character much in the same way GOTO's does. Malak did not recognise the Star Forge as a limited source, he didn't understand its nature in the way Revan did, and although he unlocked more of its power, it may have been out of Revan's choice.

GOTO's comments, arguably a more reliable source, invalidate Malak's claim, further solidifying it as a dramatic device on behalf of the writers. As you say, the writers words are all we have in the bounds of a fictional universe, but some sources are simply more reliable as factual information.

Originally posted by Allankles
There's no such thing as narrative necessity, that's why your argument is flawed. They don't have to go the "power level" route for dramatization. There's no contract that say they have to, and theres no evidence that shows they have to do that to dazzle us.

Lastly, video games are as valid a story telling medium as any book. If this isn't a part of your arguement then ignore the previous sentence.

My argument if you want to call it that, isn't flawed. Narrative neccesity, a dramatic device, call it what you want; it's used alot in any fiction, and one of the most effective examples of it, especially in science fiction like Star Wars, is to couple a dramatic device with terms and factors the audience will understand. In the Star Wars case, it's "power", strength in "The Force", whatever you want to call it, and these very boards are testament to the fact that it sells copies off the shelf. If writers started to describe Yoda "as a damn made of sticks stopping the flow of a small stream", or a "mediocre light bulb amidst the shade of an extremely large umbrella", then there would be complaints, not that they would, but it's a hypothetical scenario.

As for your last point, yes, videogames are as valid a story telling medium as any books, different yes, but certainly valid. However, that's what they are valid as; examples of story telling, not canonical representations of power in a ficitonal universe.

Originally posted by exanda kane
My argument if you want to call it that, isn't flawed. Narrative neccesity, a dramatic device, call it what you want; it's used alot in any fiction, and one of the most effective examples of it, especially in science fiction like Star Wars, is to couple a dramatic device with terms and factors the audience will understand. In the Star Wars case, it's "power", strength in "The Force", whatever you want to call it, and these very boards are testament to the fact that it sells copies off the shelf. If writers started to describe Yoda "as a damn made of sticks stopping the flow of a small stream", or a "mediocre light bulb amidst the shade of an extremely large umbrella", then there would be complaints, not that they would, but it's a hypothetical scenario.

As for your last point, yes, videogames are as valid a story telling medium as any books, different yes, but certainly valid. However, that's what they are valid as; examples of story telling, not canonical representations of power in a ficitonal universe.

That's your opinion but I only have to look at Jedi Academy to prove you wrong. Jaden Korr the protagonist is never implied to be uber, merely strong enough to overcome his challenges. Look at shadows of the empire or clone wars (I know those don't have Jedi, but still...)

There isn't a necessity for "power level" dramatization. If anything, it usually comes off as juvenile and more often than not is the result of a shallow plot. I know SW has mostly dealt with escapist fiction, but it still has potential for a lot more.

Originally posted by Allankles
That's your opinion but I only have to look at Jedi Academy to prove you wrong. Jaden Korr the protagonist is never implied to be uber, merely strong enough to overcome his challenges. Look at shadows of the empire or clone wars (I know those don't have Jedi, but still...)

There isn't a necessity for "power level" dramatization. If anything, it usually comes off as juvenile and more often than not is the result of a shallow plot. I know SW has mostly dealt with escapist fiction, but it still has potential for a lot more.

Your certainly missing the point there, your confusing dialogue with the action that comes complimentary with a videogame and nitpicking. Of course, with a game with options of choice like Jedi Academy, although the feats are achieved, its the methods in which they are which are sometimes unreliable. For exmaple, a few years ago, many hands down said that Dooku would beat Anakin in a duel, yet the neccesity of the plot let him beat Dooku. It heightens the excitement for the audience, yet these feats are still achieved.

Diaglogue is suspect to dramatic neccesity, if it is written with any kind of engagement with the audience, and you simply can't ignore that fact.

Star Wars is B movie material, Lucas has admitted its origins in that genre, don't try and add layers of undeserving complexity to it, or you'll eventaually find out that it simply does not work.

Originally posted by Riverollv
Apollo, I'm a Revan fanboy as well, but canon is canon and you simply have no choice but accept it.

What you said X 50

Ok, this threat seems to have gone too far. Anyway, i say the team 2. Sidious is mostly accepted as the greatest sith ever, and i think he could have some advantage (even though a short one) to Ullic or Revan, while Mace had also Vaadpad and shatterpoint, so he could endure much time against either Ullic, who was also a titan with lightsaber (let's not forget that he could fight a jedi knight with his lightsaber WITHOUT the force) or Revan (who is known to beat the best warriors of his time like Mandalore, Yusanis, Malak, etc).

I would also point out that Malak's statement about jedi revan>sith revan is discussible since he said in the Levithian that when he blasted Revan, he had already surpassed him, what this is most likely a lie, or he would have tried to face him in a duel for sure. Also the fact that he lost empored by the star forge is not on his favor.

So, i am not really sure that jedi revan>sith revan, in fact i think they would pretty much the same. After all, it's the same person...

Originally posted by kamhal
Ok, this threat seems to have gone too far. Anyway, i say the team 2. Sidious is mostly accepted as the greatest sith ever, and i think he could have some advantage (even though a short one) to Ullic or Revan, while Mace had also Vaadpad and shatterpoint, so he could endure much time against either Ullic, who was also a titan with lightsaber (let's not forget that he could fight a jedi knight with his lightsaber WITHOUT the force) or Revan (who is known to beat the best warriors of his time like Mandalore, Yusanis, Malak, etc).

I would also point out that Malak's statement about jedi revan>sith revan is discussible since he said in the Levithian that when he blasted Revan, he had already surpassed him, what this is most likely a lie, or he would have tried to face him in a duel for sure. Also the fact that he lost empored by the star forge is not on his favor.

So, i am not really sure that jedi revan>sith revan, in fact i think they would pretty much the same. After all, it's the same person...

BUMP sorry bout it but malak did state Jedi revan > sith revan later on.

Malak had to stun revan in the ship because malak was problably getting over powered