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I think Goku wins, but i might just be a fangirl
But who do you think takes it?

I am not into Dragonball GT, so please, keep this to Dragonball Z.

In normal form:
Mr. Kaio stated that the weights Goku lifted weighted 40 tons together.
That was in 10 times the Earths gravity.
He did not said they weighted 40 tons because of the gravity, just 40 tons.
Gokus strenght should at least be 1.25 times as great as stated above, because that was before a REALLY strict training.
So calculated, i guess he is Class 50 at the end of Dragonball Z.

In Super Sayan form:
Its officially stated that it multiplies Gokus power with 50.
So 50x50=25.000 tons.

In Super Sayan 2 form:
Its officially stated that it multiplies Gokus power with 100.
So 25.000x2=50.000 tons.

In Super Sayan 3 form:
Its officially stated that it multiplies Gokus power with 150.
So 25.000x3=75.000 tons.

So at best, Goku should be able to lift 75.000 tons.

Really?

Hi Judge.

DBZ = closed

Find it amazing that he can destroy planets with an energy ball and only lift around 75k tons

Originally posted by King Kandy
Hi Judge.
See Judge.It's too easy to recognize you.

Originally posted by Dangerous
In normal form:
Mr. Kaio stated that the weights Goku lifted weighted 40 tons together.
That was in 10 times the Earths gravity.
He did not said they weighted 40 tons because of the gravity, just 40 tons.
Gokus strenght should at least be 1.25 times as great as stated above, because that was before a REALLY strict training.
So calculated, i guess he is Class 50 at the end of Dragonball Z.

In Super Sayan form:
Its officially stated that it multiplies Gokus power with 50.
So 50x50=25.000 tons.

In Super Sayan 2 form:
Its officially stated that it multiplies Gokus power with 100.
So 25.000x2=50.000 tons.

In Super Sayan 3 form:
Its officially stated that it multiplies Gokus power with 150.
So 25.000x3=75.000 tons.

So at best, Goku should be able to lift 75.000 tons.
BULLSHIT

Goku (at best) is a class 100.

Spiritually he's a class God-only-knows.

Physically ? CL 100

You know class 100 means you can lift 100 tons and over, right?

Even if you lift 75,000 your still a class 100.

Oh please God no!

Not a Superman vs Goku thread!

Originally posted by King Kandy
You know class 100 means you can lift 100 tons and over, right?

Even if you lift 75,000 your still a class 100.

No thats class 100+ , or at least in my book

In before lock.

Also Superman wins.

SSJ 1 and above = Goku ftw.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
SSJ 1 and above = Goku ftw.

Prove it

The trip to Namek was stated as being a 45,000 light year trip. Goku had a ship that made the drip in six days. When he returned from Namek he was faster then the ship. Watch the episode where the ship is about to crash into a star... and then remember how fast the ship is moving... then notice how fast it is moving in Goku's perspective.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
The trip to Namek was stated as being a 45,000 light year trip. Goku had a ship that made the drip in six days. When he returned from Namek he was faster then the ship. Watch the episode where the ship is about to crash into a star... and then remember how fast the ship is moving... then notice how fast it is moving in Goku's perspective.
Yeah,that proves it..haermm

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
The trip to Namek was stated as being a 45,000 light year trip. Goku had a ship that made the drip in six days. When he returned from Namek he was faster then the ship. Watch the episode where the ship is about to crash into a star... and then remember how fast the ship is moving... then notice how fast it is moving in Goku's perspective.

Yeah, I remember that, based on that Superrman speed is joke to Goku.
Actually, Goku would easily speedblitz him.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
The trip to Namek was stated as being a 45,000 light year trip. Goku had a ship that made the drip in six days. When he returned from Namek he was faster then the ship. Watch the episode where the ship is about to crash into a star... and then remember how fast the ship is moving... then notice how fast it is moving in Goku's perspective.

That was a filler episode. It's non - canon.

DBZ characters are nowhere near lightspeed unless you count instant transmission.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
That was a filler episode. It's non - canon.

DBZ characters are nowhere near lightspeed unless you count instant transmission.

Filler isn't non-canon, its secondary canon and is good so long as it doesn't contradict anything in primary canon.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Filler isn't non-canon, its secondary canon and is good so long as it doesn't contradict anything in primary canon.

No, only the original manga is canon, because that's the only part written by Toriyama.

Filler episodes make no sense and are full of crappy writing and plot holes.

Do you want me to bring up the one where Goku and Picollo were struggling to lift a school bus?

In fact there's a major problem with just that one episode: If the ship was going that fast, that star would have approached/passed the ship in a tiny fraction of a second, and they wouldn't have a whole episode about it (and Goku had a conversation with people on Earth in that episode regarding the situation, so don't try the "it was all happening in super speed" excuse).

Goku wins until I see Superman recreate a solar system busting attack. Oh and SSJ Gotenks went around the earth 7x's in a second.

And when did Goku create a solar system destroying attack? Oh yea cell said he was gonna do it so Goku can do it and he can also destroy the universe in ssj3 right?

It was 30+ time in about 20-25mins, no where near light speed.

Well if Cell could do it why argue that SSJ 3 Goku couldn't? What, he magically got weaker despite Vegita mocking how weak Cell was in the same saga?

Oh and they flew around the world 7x's in one panel (you can even see the vapor trail) then took a nap for the rest of the time.

Except there's no proof that Cell could do it. He just claimed he could but never showed that power, and people much stronger than him much later on never showed that kind of power.

He was obviously just bluffing.

Why would he bluff? Cell was just that good. Prove that Cell couldn't flatten a Solar System

Where all the DBZ crap comes from

1. Non canon - Especially the moves 'oh broly destroyed a galaxy'

2. Filler - It IS non-canon , secondary canon is a crappy excuse created by Lucas so he could drain more cash out of fans without getting off his ass to undo plot tangles.

3. Confusion of Physical strength = Spiritual strength - Just because you can blow up a planet with your ki doesn't mean you can punch one in half.

4. Hyperbole - 'Father your going to destroy the whole planet' just doesn't cut it.

It's impossible to prove a negative. The burden of proof is on you to prove he could.

As for why he would, it's because he was an egomaniac who was drunk with power and believe himself to be perfect and invincible, and when he said that he had just gotten another powerup and was more full of himself than ever.

Not that it would even have been a problem to Superman if it was true, as he has taken the blasts of exploding sun - eaters which are greater than supernovae (and can weaken him with red sun radiation).

4. Hyperbole - 'Father your going to destroy the whole planet' just doesn't cut it.

Actually it's quite believable that Vegeta could have destroyed the earth at that point, (Frieza who was weaker than him could do it), but it just didn't happen since most of the blast flew harmlessly into space.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
It's impossible to prove a negative. The burden of proof is on you to prove he could.

I have a direct quote partner, your rebuttal is he's never displayed that amount of power before. When has Cell shown he couldn't do something with ease?


Not that it would even have been a problem to Superman if it was true, as he has taken the blasts of exploding sun - eaters which are greater than supernovae (and can weaken him with red sun radiation).


And has gotten ko'd by Gas Stations

Originally posted by Joey Stacks
Well if Cell could do it why argue that SSJ 3 Goku couldn't? What, he magically got weaker despite Vegita mocking how weak Cell was in the same saga?

Oh and they flew around the world 7x's in one panel (you can even see the vapor trail) then took a nap for the rest of the time. Superman has sneezed away a solar system. durfist

Originally posted by Endless Mike
No, only the original manga is canon, because that's the only part written by Toriyama.


That isn't how canon works. Anything published with the franchise name is canon, either primary or secondary. If canon was depended on one writer then manga would be the only medium capable of having a canon story line... but that isn't the case is it?

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Filler episodes make no sense and are full of crappy writing and plot holes.

Dragonball Z episodes make no sense and are full of crappy writing and plot holes on their own

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Do you want me to bring up the one where Goku and Picollo were struggling to lift a school bus?

Their strength levels are depended on chi. Chi auroras, as shown in the Cell games, are dangerous to normal people with in a certain proximity. They were low balling it so no to kill a bus load of children?

Originally posted by Endless Mike
In fact there's a major problem with just that one episode: If the ship was going that fast, that star would have approached/passed the ship in a tiny fraction of a second, and they wouldn't have a whole episode about it (and Goku had a conversation with people on Earth in that episode regarding the situation, so don't try the "it was all happening in super speed" excuse).

Speed is relative. If you can run at the speed of light and perceive/react to the world at the same speed, in your perspective it would take just as long to run a mile as it would a normal man.

Anyway Clearly Dr. Briefs has some sort of super communications device that can't even be comprehended. Goku was thousands of light years away and somehow he was getting radio/television signals to the ship.

Superman has sneezed away a solar system.


Which is about as canon as Broly destroying Galaxies

Originally posted by Joey Stacks
Superman has sneezed away a solar system.


Which is about as canon as Broly destroying Galaxies It happened! Super sneeze ftw! w00tdur

Originally posted by Joey Stacks
I have a direct quote partner, your rebuttal is he's never displayed that amount of power before. When has Cell shown he couldn't do something with ease?

He's never showed anything on that level.



You take Byrne seriously?

Broly actually blew up Galaxies.

Goku > Broly and in DB A>B>C logic is actually an accurate way of judging power.

Goku wins again.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
He's never showed anything on that level.


Why would he need to?

Did he show he was capable of blowing up the moon? Nah

Do we know he was capable of blowing up the moon? Hell yeah



You take Byrne seriously?

I take him as serious as Loeb and the rest of the Superman street team.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
That isn't how canon works. Anything published with the franchise name is canon, either primary or secondary. If canon was depended on one writer then manga would be the only medium capable of having a canon story line... but that isn't the case is it?

That's the way it works for most mangas/animes (unless the creator him/herself makes an official statement otherwise).

Find a statement by Toriyama that says the fillers are canon, or they're not.



The manga is much better than the anime when it comes to this.



And Goku could fight Buu at SSJ3 with Mr. Satan/Hercule right in the area? You're really reaching here. He's powered up in front of plenty of normal humans, it's never hurt them.



That they have FTL comms is a given. But unless you want to claim that Dr. Briefs can think and talk at super speed, then you've got nothing.

Originally posted by Joey Stacks
Why would he need to.



You take Byrne seriously?

I take him as serious as Loeb and the rest of the Superman street team.

You know he's gotten far stronger since then.

Should I start using feats from Goku at the beginning of Dragonball to prove he's weak?

There is no quantifiable way to define how much more powerful Superman has gotten. With Goku you could use PL's to prove he's hundreds of million times stronger, with Superman it's just opinion

Originally posted by Joey Stacks
There is no quantifiable way to define how much more powerful Superman has gotten. With Goku you could use PL's to prove he's hundreds of million times stronger, with Superman it's just opinion Super sneeze, pulling a solar system, boom tube velocity, black hole defying Superman ftw. durfist

Originally posted by Joey Stacks
There is no quantifiable way to define how much more powerful Superman has gotten. With Goku you could use PL's to prove he's hundreds of million times stronger, with Superman it's just opinion

Power levels are meaningless, as they are not a logical scale. If they were, that farmer who Raditz killed that had a power level of 5 would have had more power than all of the world's combined nuclear
arsenals.

Oh, and BTW:

http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t173/EndlessMike9/thetruth.jpg

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Power levels are meaningless, as they are not a logical scale. If they were, that farmer who Raditz killed that had a power level of 5 would have had more power than all of the world's combined nuclear
arsenals.

Oh, and BTW:

http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t173/EndlessMike9/thetruth.jpg That's exactly the scenario!

Goku gets my nod.

His combat speed>>Clarks combat speed.

He's not as strong as Clark, but he's fast enough to land 4 hits, for every one of Clarks. Those rack up.

3 Pages and its still not locked!

Superman ftw!

Originally posted by Endless Mike
If they were, that farmer who Raditz killed that had a power level of 5 would have had more power than all of the world's combined nuclear
arsenals.



What the hell have you been smoking?

Originally posted by UniOmni
Goku gets my nod.

His combat speed>>Clarks combat speed.

He's not as strong as Clark, but he's fast enough to land 4 hits, for every one of Clarks. Those rack up.

And your evidence for this is? (Other than the DBZ manga being drawn with more blurs, afterimages, and speed lines than Superman comics)

Even if you were right, Superman has the strength to move the Mageddon machinery and the earth and such, so everyone one of his punches >>>>>>>>> every one of Goku's punches.

Originally posted by Joey Stacks
What the hell have you been smoking?

Roshi destroyed the moon at power level 139.

Divide that by 5, you get something around 28. All the nuclear weapons ever built are nowhere near powerful enough to destroy 1/28th of the moon.

Most versions of Superman win this fairly easily.

Current, All star, Blue, Pre crisis, 1M, Red son, etc...

Speed/Strengh/Power/Durability all go to Superman.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Roshi destroyed the moon at power level 139.

Divide that by 5, you get something around 28. All the nuclear weapons ever built are nowhere near powerful enough to destroy 1/28th of the moon.

Roshi's level that blew up the moon was much higher then 139, lest we forget him pumping up.

Originally posted by Joey Stacks
Roshi's level that blew up the moon was much higher then 139, lest we forget him pumping up.

IIRC it was stated that he was at 139 throughout the entirety of Dragonball (before Z started).

Besides, even if it was a billion times that, that would still put that farmer out of his own range.

There are tons of other discrepancies too. Power levels simply make no sense, they are not consistent. Frieza with a power level of 500,000 destroyed the planet Vegeta, but with a power level of over 10 million in his transformation state was having trouble destroying the planet Namek (which was smaller and less dense).

So you're telling me that he was as powerful buff as he was normal? Then what's the point of buffing up, that's stupid. And now that I think about it, it'd make sense for the farmer to be that powerful, he just cannot channel it (hell it took Roshi 50 years to learn how to channel his ki).

And Frieza never had trouble destroying Namek, he laughed it off in fact. Highly out of character thing for him to do unless it was intentional.

When guys like Karate Kid is discussed, skill is everything...

But when other martial artists, like Goku is discussed, pure skill is threatened as a non-factor.

Also, what speedfeats do Superman have that can be compared to Goku?

And i forgot... At the time Goku lifted 40 tons... It was in 10 times gravity!

That means he is class 400 as normal!

Originally posted by Dangerous
When guys like Karate Kid is discussed, skill is everything...

But when other martial artists, like Goku is discussed, pure skill is threatened as a non-factor.

Also, what speedfeats do Superman have that can be compared to Goku?

Moving 20x the speed of light.

Because Goku has never beaten anyone based on his skill? he wins by being more powerful.



Which would still be well below Superman.



No, the real question is what Speedfeats doe Goku have compared to Superman?

Originally posted by Dangerous
And i forgot... At the time Goku lifted 40 tons... It was in 10 times gravity!

That means he is class 400 as normal!

I'm pretty sure gravity doesn't work like that....

Originally posted by grey fox
Moving 20x the speed of light.

Moved... But who says he can fight at that speed?

And scans would be nice.

Originally posted by grey fox
I'm pretty sure gravity doesn't work like that....

In Dragonball Z, it does. Ten times as heavy

Hmm...

Well, before this gets closed, and though I know it's not the popular choice, I'd have to take Goku over Supes. Much, much better fighter hand to hand than Superman, arguably just as fast as Supes, and fights at a speed that's pretty much unfathomable. Superman is stronger physically (I have no doubt of that), but Goku's fight speed, skill, and tactical use of Instant Transmission would negate a lot of that, and Goku himself is not exactly weak. Not to mention that Goku has those magic beans that heal all injuries if necessary. It could be argued that Supes could sun-dip, but then Goku could just get exposed to a full moon* to counter. It would just go on and on and on.

And that's taking the GT Episodes into consideration (which seems to be a cardinal sin for some reason, but I personally would consider it canon regardless of who wrote it. It's still Dragonball regardless of what the original creator intended. You can't simply dismiss something you don't agree with).

Goku SSJ3 Kaokin x100.

Wanna know something that suddenly striked me?

Superman have never speedblitzed anyone before

Originally posted by Dangerous
Moved... But who says he can fight at that speed?

And scans would be nice.

He got pissed off at Luthor becoming president and punched Jupiters moon in half. They gave an exact time frame that it took , using some mathematics we figured out he was moving 20x the speed of light.

Goku can only go AT the speed of light.

Originally posted by grey fox
He got pissed off at Luthor becoming president and punched Jupiters moon in half. They gave an exact time frame that it took , using some mathematics we figured out he was moving 20x the speed of light.

Goku can only go AT the speed of light.

Okay, but Cap fought Spidey who was 18 times as fast as him?

Originally posted by Dangerous
Okay, but Cap fought Spidey who was 18 times as fast as him?

goku

Originally posted by Dangerous
Okay, but Cap fought Spidey who was 18 times as fast as him?

And this has what to do with this match....?

Originally posted by guy222
goku

I agree. But...? Why answer to my post to say that?

Originally posted by grey fox
And this has what to do with this match....?

Goku i more skilled than Cap...
Supes is less skilled than Spidey.

When has Superman ever moved beyond light in-atmosphere?

Originally posted by Joey Stacks
When has Superman ever moved beyond light in-atmosphere?

This brings up another interesting theory... Can Superman even move that fast with gravity?

Originally posted by Joey Stacks
When has Superman ever moved beyond light in-atmosphere?

As in 'on the planet' ?

He doesn't , doing so would kill millions.

Can he?

This still hasn't been locked?

Originally posted by Endless Mike
This still hasn't been locked?

Why should it?

What would make you think Goku is more skilled than Captain America in close combat? All his training focused on getting physically stronger and learning Ki techniques.

Only Grampa Gohan has ever been mentioned to have taught Goku Martial arts.

With all the talk about Goku's skill, again when has that helped him win a fight?

Superman is as skilled or more than Spidey. He's been trained by Batman, Wildcat and Mongul. he taken down people by using pressure points and shown great acrobatic skill without his powers.



Now you've just lost all credibility.

Because it's spite against Goku.

He couldn't beat Superman, much less GL, SS, Black Adam, Doomsday, Sentry, etc.

My problem with DBZ is stuff like Vegeta blowing a planet with his index finger, and then a million episodes later when he releases all of his SSJ2 energy in a blast to take out Fat Buu, the planet is not completely destroys. If in his first appearance he destroyed a planet...wouldn't he destroy the entire solar system if he released all his SSJ 2 energy? Incosistent.

Originally posted by Dangerous
Why should it?

Forum rules say anime isn't allowed in the forum.

Besides, Superman vs. Goku threads never lead to anything but trouble.

The only worse vs. thread you can ever see is "Star Trek vs. Star Wars"

Originally posted by Superboy Prime
My problem with DBZ is stuff like Vegeta blowing a planet with his index finger, and then a million episodes later when he releases all of his SSJ2 energy in a blast to take out Fat Buu, the planet is not completely destroys. If in his first appearance he destroyed a planet...wouldn't he destroy the entire solar system if he released all his SSJ 2 energy? Incosistent.

Vegeta destroying the planet Arlia was a filler, non - canon.

That explains it pretty well.

Originally posted by Superboy Prime
My problem with DBZ is stuff like Vegeta blowing a planet with his index finger, and then a million episodes later when he releases all of his SSJ2 energy in a blast to take out Fat Buu, the planet is not completely destroys. If in his first appearance he destroyed a planet...wouldn't he destroy the entire solar system if he released all his SSJ 2 energy? Incosistent.

Nearly all the training they does in DBZ is focused on Ki... Is it possible that they have trained their attacks to be less destructive, but still more powerful?

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Forum rules say anime isn't allowed in the forum.

Besides, Superman vs. Goku threads never lead to anything but trouble.

The only worse vs. thread you can ever see is "Star Trek vs. Star Wars"

But this is the manga version...?
Something i forgot to state. The anime and movies gives DBZ low showings.

Grandpa taught Goku Martial Arts to the point where he was able to surpass a Shaolin Monk who dedicated his life to the arts.

Everyone else taught him how to get the most out of the skills his Grandpa taught him.

And pretty much every DB fight is raw skill. It's not like a Superman fight where the jokers lead off with their chins and take blows to the head, they actually parry and counterstrike every single blow accordingly with lightning quick reaction.

wait am i the only one who remembers, that ss4 goku(i know it's not canon but still) almost got killed by a flagpole. p.s I already started a 100+ page on goku vs superman in the superman section

Goku and every other DBZ character stopped using actual martial arts in their fights after the Saiyan saga. They just punched and kicked fast and used ki blasts then.

And parried and dodged all the punches and kicks and ki bombs, unlike Superman who just throws fists and absorbs blows with his face.

Originally posted by superkronick92
wait am i the only one who remembers, that ss4 goku(i know it's not canon but still) almost got killed by a flagpole. p.s I already started a 100+ page on goku vs superman in the superman section

As we are discussing the manga version, which has nothing to do with GT and dont have the low showings of the anime and has way better showings, these low feats dont work here. Akira Toriyama has also stated that the anime makes his characters look weak besides how they were portrayed in the manga.

No he taught an alien who come from a high gravity planet who is naturally stronger, faster and more durable than a normal human who gets stronger after every injury to eventually surpass Krillin. That's not skill.



Right...

http://img378.imageshack.us/img378/1971/supermanfast3ar.jpg

Originally posted by Galvaclaw
No he taught an alien who come from a high gravity planet who is naturally stronger, faster and more durable than a normal human who gets stronger after every injury to eventually surpass Krillin. That's not skill.



Right...

http://img378.imageshack.us/img378/1971/supermanfast3ar.jpg

Didnt you saw Goku and Krillins fight? They both showed impressive martial arts skills in their fight.

Goku wasn't an alien or above human standards until YEARS after the event in question.

And I hope you aren't trying to go scan for scan with examples of Superman leading with his chin versus him showing some skill.

Let me reiterate this one more time with emphasis

AND I HOPE YOU AREN'T TRYING TO GO SCAN FOR SCAN WITH EXAMPLES OF SUPERMAN LEADING WITH HIS CHIN VERSUS HIM SHOWING SOME SKILL

I don't know wht but I find this hilarious.

How come most of the argument against Goku is in regards to inconsistency of writing and who the writer was? Last time I checked Superman wasn't continually written by his originator. As a matter of fact, the family of his originator has continually sued DC over his use. Would that make only the original Sigel canon?

Goku's a better fighter, and the strength disparity isn't the deciding factor in the fight. Supes best bet is ranged attacks. Up close and personal Goku would school him. He's basically what Karate Kid would be if he had super speed, super strength, and energy attacks.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vbpj3w_-WJ8

Right, he fell from a huge cliff as a baby and survived with only a concussion, that's certainly not above normal human standards.

Superman has over 1000 years of experience fighting in Valhalla if you recall.

Originally posted by illadelph12
I don't know wht but I find this hilarious.

How come most of the argument against Goku is in regards to inconsistency of writing and who the writer was? Last time I checked Superman wasn't continually written by his originator. As a matter of fact, the family of his originator has continually sued DC over his use. Would that make only the original Sigel canon?

Goku's a better fighter, and the strength disparity isn't the deciding factor in the fight. Supes best bet is ranged attacks. Up close and personal Goku would school him. He's basically what Karate Kid would be if he had super speed, super strength, and energy attacks.

Yes, finally someone who understands it...

Check this, it shows his skill in slowmotion form of what they are now
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vbpj3w_-WJ8

Krillin shrugged off being shot in the face multiple times by a machine gun before receiving ki training.

And that is impressive why?

Because it's drawn using lots of blurs, afterimages, and speed lines?

Practically every anime does the same thing, have you ever seen Rorouni Kenshin for example?

Originally posted by Joey Stacks
Krillin shrugged off being shot in the face multiple times by a machine gun before receiving ki training.

Yeah

Damn, dont you just hate those who racks down on DBZ all the time out of hate, not of logic?

Originally posted by illadelph12
I don't know wht but I find this hilarious.

How come most of the argument against Goku is in regards to inconsistency of writing and who the writer was? Last time I checked Superman wasn't continually written by his originator. As a matter of fact, the family of his originator has continually sued DC over his use. Would that make only the original Sigel canon?

Goku's a better fighter, and the strength disparity isn't the deciding factor in the fight. Supes best bet is ranged attacks. Up close and personal Goku would school him. He's basically what Karate Kid would be if he had super speed, super strength, and energy attacks.

I agree with you somewhat on the creator issue.

The strength thing is a completely different thing. The most skilled Martial Artist in the world would still get pwned! fighting an angry Elephant in a ring.

Goku has nowhere near Superman's durability, senses, or strength in a fight...and to be honest...from what I've seen of the anime and the Manga...his fighting skill isn't that impressive over Superman's to rate him that highly.

HV alone would get the job done.

Originally posted by Dangerous
Yeah

Damn, dont you just hate those who racks down on DBZ all the time out of hate, not of logic?

Hate? I merely counter fanboyism with actual facts.

Did I ever claim that DBZ characters weren't bulletproof?

No.

So stop with the appeal to motive fallacies and debate properly.

Originally posted by Avalonofthewind
I agree with you somewhat on the creator issue.

The strength thing is a completely different thing. The most skilled Martial Artist in the world would still get pwned! fighting an angry Elephant in a ring.


Not because of the elephants strenght... Because its too BIG. What will he do, kick itt legs? Doh...

5 pages? My god, are the mods in the Bahamas? FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, LOCK THIS SHIT DOWN! nosweat

Superman wins. durfist Earth's greatest hero ftw.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Hate? I merely counter fanboyism with actual facts.

Did I ever claim that DBZ characters weren't bulletproof?

No.

So stop with the appeal to motive fallacies and debate properly.

You say I have fanboyism?


When Goku flies faster than a many-times-faster-than-light spaceship, its uncanon...
But everytime Supes does somethign impressive, its all accepted...

Yeah, I am the fanboy... Even through i am a girl.

But the spaceshipthing is not even debatable, as tis is the manga version we are discussing.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Hate? I merely counter fanboyism with actual facts.

Did I ever claim that DBZ characters weren't bulletproof?

No.

So stop with the appeal to motive fallacies and debate properly.

No, but you bring up fallacious points and claims like Goku survived falling off a cliff and ignore people who point out that Krillin's survived stuff just as crazy prior to training.

Your posts are nothing more then I hate Dragonball.

I have one comment on this thread.

http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t49/SymmetricChaos/picard.jpg

Do you seriously have nothing better to do with your life then make multiple posts in a topic you don't like?

Originally posted by Joey Stacks
No, but you bring up fallacious points and claims like Goku survived falling off a cliff and ignore people who point out that Krillin's survived stuff just as crazy prior to training.

Your posts are nothing more then I hate Dragonball.

Agreed. Not hate, through, more ignorance.

Any version of Superman beat s Goku bottom line, PC Superman oh my god will slaughter him, PC Superman was throwing planets like baseballs, and he flew at lightspeed and was genius at that. Superman Prime takes Goku to the heart of the sun and leaves his a$$ their, PC Superman, All star Superman, Superman 1 million, Superman Prime either puts Goku in a coma or kill him with two hits. Superman every time.

To put the conclusions in one...

Strenght? Superman is many times as strong as Goku. No debate.
Skill? Goku is many times as skilled as Superman. No debate.
Size? Around the same, through a non-factor.
Durability? Superman is many times as durable as Goku. No debate.

So Goku's only advantage is his skill.
It's just the speed department that still is debatable.

Originally posted by Dangerous
Not because of the elephants strenght... Because its too BIG. What will he do, kick itt legs? Doh...

This is hilarious. Fine...adult human male vs male gorilla.

Same size...same point.

Fighting male still gets Pwned!

Given that this thread is gonna get locked, and nobody really cares about it, I declare this thread to be about funny pictures instead.

http://ugly-halloween-costumes.com/scary/Spam/spam-big.jpg

Originally posted by Avalonofthewind
This is hilarious. Fine...adult human male vs male gorilla.

Same size...same point.

Fighting male still gets Pwned!

Admitted, you got a point there. But in fiction, that works differently... Martial artists takes much stronger foes on a daily basis.

Originally posted by Avalonofthewind
This is hilarious. Fine...adult human male vs male gorilla.

Same size...same point.

Fighting male still gets Pwned!

How about instead of fanboy out of context arguments we do something more applicable to the topic


Something like this


Pre-Crisis Karate Kid vs. Elephant

who wins?

EMzoBkaFxh4

Originally posted by Dangerous
You say I have fanboyism?


When Goku flies faster than a many-times-faster-than-light spaceship, its uncanon...

Because it was a filler. And he didn't even do that in said filler.



Because it's in continuity.

I didn't bring up any Elseworlds, Pre - Crisis, or crossover stuff.

Originally posted by Joey Stacks
No, but you bring up fallacious points and claims like Goku survived falling off a cliff and ignore people who point out that Krillin's survived stuff just as crazy prior to training.

Your posts are nothing more then I hate Dragonball.

And your posts are nothing more than appeal to motive fallacies.

Krillin trained nearly his entire life and was one of the strongest humans in the world.

You're talking like he's average.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Given that this thread is gonna get locked, and nobody really cares about it, I declare this thread to be about funny pictures instead.

http://ugly-halloween-costumes.com/scary/Spam/spam-big.jpg

Trickster ftw.

http://www.court-records.net/animations/ani-judge-gavel.gif

CASE CLOSED.

Originally posted by Avalonofthewind
I agree with you somewhat on the creator issue.

The strength thing is a completely different thing. The most skilled Martial Artist in the world would still get pwned! fighting an angry Elephant in a ring.

Goku has nowhere near Superman's durability, senses, or strength in a fight...and to be honest...from what I've seen of the anime and the Manga...his fighting skill isn't that impressive over Superman's to rate him that highly.

HV alone would get the job done.

His fighting skills aren't impressive compared to Superman???

My views are based mainly on the cartoon (sadly), but I've got to say that I've seen on many, many, many occasions cartoon Goku fighting hand to hand at light speed either one on one or on a couple occasions against multiple opponents (the Ginyu Force). His fights usually end with energy attacks but they aren't that way for the full duration. The Kamehameha is usually the final blow. It's usually up close assault followed by machine gun chi blasts to more up close assault to someone getting punched into the ground creating a crater to more machine gun chi blasts to more up close combat to Goku delivering the money shot Kamehemeha. Now, I'm hoping we all watched the same cartoons. I'm confused. Goku ALWAYS engages in hand to hand combat and normally it's at such a high rate of speed it's unseen.

I haven't read all of the Manga admittedly so I can't speak on all of that.

I agree that heat vision would work (as I said above Supes would have to use ranged attacks). The question is whether it would hurt Goku. Goku has blocked many blasts before. I'm not sure what the properties of all the different chi blasts are (like temperature, energy signature, etc.), but it may not be outside the realm of possibility that a powered up (so SSJ2 or SSJ3) Goku with his aura around him could take heat vision blasts and be protected from them. It's really hard to say. I know Goku could take blasts from the androids and Cell.

As far as senses go, Goku can sense power levels from great distances as well as different dimensions and has telepathy in the cartoon, I'm not sure what he has in the Manga. He can't see or hear as well as Supes, that's not in question, but a 6'5" living solar battery is going to be kind of easy for him to track.

The only edges I give Supes are strength and durability. Goku can deliver a lot of damage though and it's been shown that Supes can succomb to physical abuse. It's not Goku's fists Supes would have to worry about the most though, it's the fists plus energy attacks in steady succession.

To be diplomatic I'd say 50:50, but I'd be putting my money on Goku.

Any version of Superman kills Goku, Superman lobotomize Gokus a$$.

On a side note, I haven't seen you around much lately Av. How have you been?

Originally posted by Joey Stacks
How about instead of fanboy out of context arguments we do something more applicable to the topic


Something like this


Pre-Crisis Karate Kid vs. Elephant

who wins?

How about you show something of relevance to Goku getting an actual win.

There have been tons of forums on this topic..and Supermans on panel always demolishes Goku's on panel.

Let me guess..you're going to bring up some fanboy numbers for what on panel can't provide?

Originally posted by Endless Mike
And your posts are nothing more than appeal to motive fallacies.

Krillin trained nearly his entire life and was one of the strongest humans in the world.

You're talking like he's average.

Who in real life can shrug off multiple bullet wounds to the dome?

Average my ass.

Superman take Goku at the edge of the universe and leaveshis a$$ too suffocate in outer space.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
And your posts are nothing more than appeal to motive fallacies.

Krillin trained nearly his entire life and was one of the strongest humans in the world.

You're talking like he's average.

Gotta agree with you on this.

Originally posted by Avalonofthewind
How about you show something of relevance to Goku getting an actual win.

There have been tons of forums on this topic..and Supermans on panel always demolishes Goku's on panel.

Let me guess..you're going to bring up some fanboy numbers for what on panel can't provide?

How's Superman going to even hurt someone who scoffs at planet exploding attacks and beings capable of destroying the Solar System. Keep in mind this is an AVERAGE showing for Goku?

Hell we can turn this into a feat fest in that Superman has better damage soak whereas Goku has MUCH better damage production but Superman still loses in that Goku has NO low showings (whereas Superman has quite a few noticeable ones).

Originally posted by illadelph12
His fighting skills aren't impressive compared to Superman???

My views are based mainly on the cartoon (sadly), but I've got to say that I've seen on many, many, many occasions cartoon Goku fighting hand to hand at light speed either one on one or on a couple occasions against multiple opponents (the Ginyu Force). His fights usually end with energy attacks but they aren't that way for the full duration. The Kamehameha is usually the final blow. It's usually up close assault followed by machine gun chi blasts to more up close assault to someone getting punched into the ground creating a crater to more machine gun chi blasts to more up close combat to Goku delivering the money shot Kamehemeha. Now, I'm hoping we all watched the same cartoons. I'm confused. Goku ALWAYS engages in hand to hand combat and normally it's at such a high rate of speed it's unseen.

I haven't read all of the Manga admittedly so I can't speak on all of that.

I agree that heat vision would work (as I said above Supes would have to use ranged attacks). The question is whether it would hurt Goku. Goku has blocked many blasts before. I'm not sure what the properties of all the different chi blasts are (like temperature, energy signature, etc.), but it may not be outside the realm of possibility that a powered up (so SSJ2 or SSJ3) Goku with his aura around him could take heat vision blasts and be protected from them. It's really hard to say. I know Goku could take blasts from the androids and Cell.

As far as senses go, Goku can sense power levels from great distances as well as different dimensions and has telepathy in the cartoon, I'm not sure what he has in the Manga. He can't see or hear as well as Supes, that's not in question, but a 6'5" living solar battery is going to be kind of easy for him to track.

The only edges I give Supes are strength and durability. Goku can deliver a lot of damage though and it's been shown that Supes can succomb to physical abuse. It's not Goku's fists Supes would have to worry about the most though, it's the fists plus energy attacks in steady succession.

To be diplomatic I'd say 50:50, but I'd be putting my money on Goku.

Same here...long time no see ol' chum.

As far as I've seen...Goku can sense Chi energy...not other forms (similar to say what Mags, Eradicator, SS, or Superman himself could do) so he'd be fairly blind on that aspect since Superman doesn't really radiate chi like that.

Physically there is a huge difference...Goku would break his hands punching Superman. DBZ characters simply weren't created to fight characters with that type of insane durability straight up.

As for skill...Superman has used pressure points to paralyze Batman... a guy who recently beat Karate kid. He's also pulled out plenty of acrobatic maneuvers even without his powers and won in arena type tournament battles.

Speed wise...there is no comparison...IT (a nice way of saying teleportation) would be useless in this match...especially since it requires the DBZ clan to lock into a source of chi.

Originally posted by Joey Stacks
How's Superman going to even hurt someone who scoffs at planet exploding attacks and beings capable of destroying the Solar System. Keep in mind this is an AVERAGE showing for Goku?

LOL @ goku scoffing at planet exploding attacks and destroying solar systems. This is the fanboyish crap that keeps DBZ off these forums.

I'm willing to call your bluff though. If it's an "average" showing...then there must be TONS of proof laying around in terms of scans and material?

We're waiting.

People keep saying superman can take planet destroying attacks...

The DBZ characters have destroyed planets from early in the series.

Now their attacks are many classes beyond earthdestruction, they just dont have the EXPLOSIONS to make it look like more.

Pressure point is a knowledge, not skill.

Joey stacks, please...
I am glad you know Goku will win, too, but you are starting to sound fanboyish, and true enough, thats what have caused the stream of DBZ-hate that now exists in DBZ-debates all over the internet.

Please, keep it fair

Originally posted by Dangerous
Joey stacks, please...
I am glad you know Goku will win, too, but you are starting to sound fanboyish, and true enough, thats what have caused the stream of DBZ-hate that now exists in DBZ-debates all over the internet.

Please, keep it fair


http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y37/Nightmareman95/HAL10WEEN/getyurahstomrs.png

Isn't chi simply life energy? In Dragonball every living thing on Earth has chi. As a matter of fact, in one episode all the living creatures of earth gave chi to Goku to drop a spirit bomb on Kid Buu. I'm pretty sure Supes has a lot of life energy. Whether it's called chi or not a being that powerful would have a large aura and Goku has an affinity with life force.

And also:



We both know eachothers debating styles pretty well by now, so I shouldn't have to say it. I'm not going to call you out for pulling this, but we both know that's a very hollow point to make Av. You're saying Superman applying pressure points on Batman, who had a recent good showing against an 'amnesiac' Karate Kid, is valid for comparison to Goku? We both know the degrees of separation on that are staggering my friend. I'll just leave it at that.

I think I'm done with this topic anyway. It will be closed soon anyway.

I'm surprised you didn't enter the tournament Av.

Pressure point attack requires both knowledge and skill, AFAIK.

Originally posted by Avalonofthewind
LOL @ goku scoffing at planet exploding attacks and destroying solar systems. This is the fanboyish crap that keeps DBZ off these forums.

I'm willing to call your bluff though. If it's an "average" showing...then there must be TONS of proof laying around in terms of scans and material?

We're waiting.

1.) So you're telling me if First Form Frieza hit end of series Goku with the same thing he hit the Planet Vegeta with, it'd register? This is a planet buster.

Hell I'll do you one better

Vegeta was stated capable of destroying Earth in the Saiyan Saga.

After being powered up, multiple times, he hit Frieza with all he had and all it did was make him smile. By the end of the series, Goku, needless to say, is way more powerful then this incarnation of Frieza.

2.) Vegeta (remember DBZ A>B>C logic=correct) has scoffed off Cell beings and dismissed Gohan (during the Buu saga btw) as weak, Cell level beings are Solar System buster level.

3.) Kid Buu PLAYFULLY destroyed the Earth. Goku is stated as being more powerful then him in SSJ3 form (he lost because he wanted Vegeta to get a crack at him). This is ignoring the 10 years of training he received after the event where the skies the limit to what level he reached (I like to put him at SSJ Gotenks level mysefl).

Also, wasn't Goku strong enough to break a Kachin sword?

Originally posted by Dangerous
People keep saying superman can take planet destroying attacks...

The DBZ characters have destroyed planets from early in the series.

Now their attacks are many classes beyond earthdestruction, they just dont have the EXPLOSIONS to make it look like more.

Calling Bullshit.

The earliest was near the end of the Frieza saga , whom had to go directly to the core of the planet to due so.

Trunk's quote is useless, we also have in-fiction people saying Sentry beat Galactus and that Spidey can kill Hulk. Remember kiddie-winks , just because someone says something doesn't necessarily make it so.

Other then that we have Buu who's so hideously overpowered it's almost insane , then again he's the final villain so it's understandable.

Originally posted by Joey Stacks
1.) So you're telling me if First Form Frieza hit end of series Goku with the same thing he hit the Planet Vegeta with, it'd register? This is a planet buster.

Hell I'll do you one better

Vegeta was stated capable of destroying Earth in the Saiyan Saga.

After being powered up, multiple times, he hit Frieza with all he had and all it did was make him smile. By the end of the series, Goku, needless to say, is way more powerful then this incarnation of Frieza.

2.) Vegeta (remember DBZ A>B>C logic=correct) has scoffed off Cell beings and dismissed Gohan as weak, Cell level beings are Solar System buster level.

3.) Kid Buu PLAYFULLY destroyed the Earth.

So you have no real proof then? Just a lot of hearsay.

Come on dawgz! There must be plenty of proof around somewhere.

Originally posted by Avalonofthewind
So you have no real proof then? Just a lot of hearsay.

Come on dawgz! There must be plenty of proof around somewhere.

Joey stacks actually stated facts for once.

Originally posted by Dangerous
Joey stacks actually stated facts for once.

It's all hearsay...where are the actual scans/showings for this.

Remember...he claimed this was commonplace for Goku.

There should be PLENTY of on panel evidence then outside of hearsay.

Originally posted by Avalonofthewind
It's all hearsay...where are the actual scans/showings for this.

Remember...he claimed this was commonplace for Goku.

There should be PLENTY of on panel evidence then outside of hearsay.

A lot of characters BENEATH Goku has impressive showings, which is shown commonplace for DBZ characters.

SCANS

Originally posted by Avalonofthewind
So you have no real proof then? Just a lot of hearsay.

Come on dawgz! There must be plenty of proof around somewhere.

I just gave you the facts.

Vegeta being able to blow away the Earth beginning of series? Stated in book.

Vegeta not being able to phase Frieza? Shown on panel.

Frieza destroying Planet Vegeta? Stated in book.

Kid Buu playfully destroying Earth? Shown on panel.

Cell being able to destroy the Solar System? Stated in book.

Vegeta mocking Gohan for not taking out a Cell level being? Shown on panel

Goku being stronger then Kid Buu? Stated in book

You want to deny these facts? That's just proof of you not having a grasp of the characters you are arguing.

If we take the greatest incarnation of Goku and pit him against the greatest incarnation of Superman, Goku loses.

Originally posted by grey fox
Calling Bullshit.

The earliest was near the end of the Frieza saga , whom had to go directly to the core of the planet to due so.

Trunk's quote is useless, we also have in-fiction people saying Sentry beat Galactus and that Spidey can kill Hulk. Remember kiddie-winks , just because someone says something doesn't necessarily make it so.

Other then that we have Buu who's so hideously overpowered it's almost insane , then again he's the final villain so it's understandable.

Have i ever talked about Trunks quote? Or the famous Cellquote?
No.
I only uses concrete stuff when i debates.

And DBZ is filled with jobbing, Freeza did so to make it intense, possibly. If 139 powerlevel is enough to destroy the moon, 120.000.000 is sure as hell much more than enough to destroy a planet.






EVeryone keeps talking about the virsuality of DBZ, not actual damage. Make the earth a few thousand times as hard as it is now, and the attacks will simply still destroy it.

Originally posted by Joey Stacks
I just gave you the facts.

Vegeta being able to blow away the Earth beginning of series? Stated in book.

Vegeta not being able to phase Frieza? Shown on panel.

Frieza destroying Planet Vegeta? Stated in book.

Kid Buu playfully destroying Earth? Shown on panel.

Cell being able to destroy the Solar System? Stated in book.

Vegeta mocking Gohan for not taking out a Cell level being? Shown on panel

Goku being stronger then Kid Buu? Stated in book

You want to deny these facts? That's just proof of you not having a grasp of the characters you are arguing.

Besides the Cell/Solar System thing, i f*cking agree!
Most people are ignorant when debating DBZ...
Goku is far behind Supes is strenght, but not in durability, when i think about it... Goku takes many-times-more-than-neccesary-through-visually-only-planet-destroying-attacks very often.

Hell didn't King Cole once get offended when someone compared his son (Frieza's) durability to that of a "mere" planet? I think he threatend to kill the guy who said it too.

PS: The planet Vegeta has 10x's the mass of the Planet Earth. So win Frieza blew Vegeta away he produced enough energy to blow away the Earth 10x's over


http://www.chartway.com/MediaLibrary/The%20More%20You%20Know%20LOGO.jpg

Superman is way more versitle than Goku. He can become invisible and intangible, has greater durability and exceptional speed.

Depending on the incarnation Superman has 200+ quintillion tons of strength, up to being able tu rub his hands toguether to affect the very fabric of space-time.

Superman FTW all the time.

Originally posted by Joey Stacks
Hell didn't King Cole once get offended when someone compared his son (Frieza's) durability to that of a "mere" planet? I think he threatend to kill the guy who said it too.

I only remembers feats, not quotes, but it sounds right enough

Supes FTW

Originally posted by bean_machine
Superman is way more versitle than Goku. He can become invisible and intangible, has greater durability and exceptional speed.

Depending on the incarnation Superman has 200+ quintillion tons of strength, up to being able tu rub his hands toguether to affect the very fabric of space-time.

Superman FTW all the time.

I am not talking about the sickly overpowered Superman 1 million... Everybody hates him, anyways

Actually its PC Supes and people here bring up SSJ4 Goku so why can't I bring up PC Supes?

Originally posted by illadelph12
Isn't chi simply life energy? In Dragonball every living thing on Earth has chi. As a matter of fact, in one episode all the living creatures of earth gave chi to Goku to drop a spirit bomb on Kid Buu. I'm pretty sure Supes has a lot of life energy. Whether it's called chi or not a being that powerful would have a large aura and Goku has an affinity with life force.

And also:



We both know eachothers debating styles pretty well by now, so I shouldn't have to say it. I'm not going to call you out for pulling this, but we both know that's a very hollow point to make Av. You're saying Superman applying pressure points on Batman, who had a recent good showing against an 'amnesiac' Karate Kid, is valid for comparison to Goku? We both know the degrees of separation on that are staggering my friend. I'll just leave it at that.

I think I'm done with this topic anyway. It will be closed soon anyway.

I'm surprised you didn't enter the tournament Av.

The "amnesiac" karate kid didn't know where he was from...it didn't affect his fighting skill in any way whatsoever...or I would never have even brought it up.

I've never been interested in tournies...simply because it requires a lot more energy than popping in and out of threads every once in a while.

Personally I ignore GT and make it known that I only use SSJ3 Goku.