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Count Dooku and Sora Bulq v Mace Windu and Darth Maul, setting platform where Kenobi and Grievous fought in ROTS.

I say Mace and Maul take this one. Maul takes one Bulq whil Mace finishes with Dooku.

Mace beats Dooku after a LONG fight. In Obsession they fought and Dooku fled, you can say "Dooku had to much to risk" but that's a poor excuse, he was so excited to fight Jedi, what did he have to lose unless he wasn't going to beat Mace? Plus Lucas has stated that only Yoda and Mace can hang with Sidious, he never said that Dooku could, which also puts Mace above Dooku. So Mace wins this one.

Maul vs. Sora is ridiculously close. I put them as equals. Sora put up a decent fight against CW Mace, Maul when not at full strength basically beat Qui-Gon and Kenobi 2 on 1. He won't get cocky against Sora, either, as he'll know right away that Sora is a worthy chalenge for him.


So Mace kills Dooku, and then he and Maul together double-team Sora and pwn him.


The M team wins. http://images.killermovies.com/forums/smilies/cartoon/cool.gif

of course Dooku could hang with Sidious, when Lucas said this he was talking specifically about why Agen,Kit and Tiin got cut down so fast, and did not include Dooku b/c he was already dead.

My money is on Maul over Bulq any day. Not by a huge gap, but enough to give him the win after a long fight. It's the same thing with Mace and Dooku. Team two wins.

Maul and Mace win.

For this i actually put Count Dooku over Mace, but Maul over Sora Bulq, just b/c Sora uses Vaapad is not going to carry him to a win.

DS, didn't Shaak Ti and Sora duel and Sora lose?

M team wins anyways.

The second team will win; Maul is a Sith apprentice trained for years by Darth Sidious, and I could bombard this thread with the multitude of quotes and evidence from various sources, but I don't think I'll need to. Likewise, we have Mace Windu, who is the ultimate master of Vaapad - the deadliest lightsaber form - that happens to have a built-in technique especially effective against dark siders. Mace is more powerful than Dooku and Maul is more powerful than Bulq. They win.

Ya, this match is unbalanced.

Not arguing Escape, just curious here...If Dooku beat Mace as a Jedi, and then became "an even greater Sith," what is to stop him from doing it again? Since we know that A>B>C's don't work, we cant say that Mace beat Sidious and Sidious would beat Dooku, cause Dooku might have more technical skill in that department that would fare well against Mace. I understand that Vaapad helps against Sith and thats something that Mace didnt have at the time Dooku beat him, but if Dooku's skill increased by any fair margin, wouldn't that help level that playing field?

That's my only hang-up here, otherwise I would say team M, as DS19 put it...

the M team would most likely win yes, i did the vs b/c i have noticed that a few, not just DS19, think Sora Bulq is some kind of badass for some reason, but they win b/c Mace's partner is stronger, not b/c Mace would beat Dooku, b/c from what we have seen in the movies, Dooku has clearly shown greater force powers and as Subjekt said Dooku was greater as a jedi, and him going Sith would certainly not make him weaker, atleast not in a fight.

If they would win b/c Maul could take out Sora, and then him and Mace could double team Dooku, thats the only way the could win.

Dooku has more abilities in force powers, but not enough to give him the victory, and I would say Mace has more raw power. Have you seen the Clone Wars Series of read Shatterpoint? I doubt it. However, I thought the same thing you did before I read Shatterpoint (and re-watched the Clone Wars series). Also, Mace has a legitimate win over Sidious in lightsaber combat.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
Not arguing Escape, just curious here...If Dooku beat Mace as a Jedi, and then became "an even greater Sith," what is to stop him from doing it again? Since we know that A>B>C's don't work, we cant say that Mace beat Sidious and Sidious would beat Dooku, cause Dooku might have more technical skill in that department that would fare well against Mace. I understand that Vaapad helps against Sith and thats something that Mace didnt have at the time Dooku beat him, but if Dooku's skill increased by any fair margin, wouldn't that help level that playing field?

That's my only hang-up here, otherwise I would say team M, as DS19 put it...

But you need to take two things into account, Darth Subjekt:

a.) Dooku, yes, improved as a Sith, but likewise, Mace undoubtably improved as a Jedi.

b.) This is where it gets murky, but if you pay attention, the light will get you through, lol: Dooku's power improved in his ascension from Jedi to Sith. But he embraced the dark side to do it, which puts him at an immediate disadvantage when facing Mace.

For example: Mace is not more powerful than Yoda. Yet he is more effective against dark siders than Yoda, who lacks the tactical advantages that Mace has at his possession (the nature of Vaapad and the mastery of Shatterpoint). Mace legitimately overcame Sidious, whereas Yoda stalemated him, even though Sidious is more powerful than Mace. It is due to Vaapad and Shatterpoint.

Team two after a long battle

Well, I'm going to look at this from another angle. I see Mace defeat Sora very quickly with Maul getting into a fight with Dooku and easily holding him off with a small chance of even beating him. I might remind everyone that Maul was one of the few people Dooku held in high esteem. Mace takes down Sora and this Dooku gets double-team and goes down.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
with Maul getting into a fight with Dooku and easily holding him off with a small chance of even beating him. you lost me with this.

Where does Dooku say he holds Maul in high esteem? I never heard him mention him, unless in a book or comic i don't have.

Originally posted by kiddo44
you lost me with this.

I wouldn't be surprised if Maul is capable of defeating Dooku in a fight. I'd put my money on Dooku but I wouldn't be surprised if it went the other way.

@ Darth Subjekt: "Where does Dooku say he holds Maul in high esteem? I never heard him mention him, unless in a book or comic i don't have."

In the ROTS Novel, during his fight with Anakin and Obi-wan.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
I wouldn't be surprised if Maul is capable of defeating Dooku in a fight. I'd put my money on Dooku but I wouldn't be surprised if it went the other way.

So the Maul who had his saber cut in half and kicked by padawan Kenobi, and i know he was tired, but still as a padawan he was a very close match for him clearly, and yet all those years later as a jedi master, Kenobi got thrown like a battledroid by Dooku while he was kicking Anakin into the wall at the same time, yeah Dooku and Maul is a real close one.

Mace takes it.

Originally posted by kiddo44
of course Dooku could hang with Sidious, when Lucas said this he was talking specifically about why Agen,Kit and Tiin got cut down so fast, and did not include Dooku b/c he was already dead.
No, he mentions this in the ESB AC, when Mace is dead, too, yet he still metions Mace. he is NOT referring to the Agen, Saesee, Kit fight scene but to OT Vader being 80% of Sidious. So your point is moot.

Nope, never. Sora has fought Mace and put up a decent fight, killed Oppo Rancisis with a back-stab, pwnd Tholme, and lost to Quinlan Vos due to cockiness, after tossing him around before that. He lost to Dooku, too, though after an unknown amount of time.



Yeah, but Mace grew even more in power than Dooku did. Dooku fought Mace prior to TPM, right? TPM mace is barely above Qui-Gon Jinn (stated in TPM novel that Jinn "rivals" Mace in swordsman skills). By ROTS Mace is strong enough to defeat Sidious in saber combat. That's a huge power jump.


Unlikely. In The Defense of Kamino Sora isn't super close to Mace but he puts up an okay fight against him.


we have debated this (literally) a hundred times (kiddo44 is a member of another form I post on). Kenobi was close because:
1. Maul was tired
2. Kenobi was using the Dark Side
3. Maul still defeated him and only later died do to his cockiness

Kenobi only lost to Dooku so badly because:
1. Kenobi was using offense, he is a master of defense, not offense, in ROTS, so Dooku got an easy opportunity to use the Force on him.
2. Maul is a vicious fighting machine, he will be constantly on Dooku and will never let up, never give him an opportunity to use the Force on him, very much the same way that ROTS Anakin did during his final confrontation with Dooku.

Not saying Maul and Dooku would be close, but your logic, for lack of a better term, sucks.

Yea, but Anakin is way better then Maul(and Dooku), Maul cant do the same thing as Anakin did to Dooku.

Nope, watch the commentary, he does mention Mace.

I think you missed part of that, there. To be fair, maybe I'm wrong, I'll check the AC and get back to you, though not until at least tomorrow night.


That's wikipedia, not wookieepedia (the star wars wikia), right? Hmm, I'll check... I don't even see Sora on wookieepedia, though it seems the page may have a temporary error on it. Hmm, I see... sounds as if some Shaak Ti fanboy wrote that. But, just to be sure, I asked. See

here.

As you see, I've read all the appearances that Sora is in, and this never happened unless an appearance is missing from the list. It also says nothing of the encounter in Shaak's page.





Edit: The link doesn't seem to be workong, just go to Sora Bulq's wookieepedia discussion page.
'Very Tired'? Proof? And Maul wouldn't be as strong as Anakin, but his fighting style, not letting Dooku let the Force, would be similar to the way that Anakin fought Dooku.