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setting ROTJ, throne room

1.Saber
2.Force
3.All out

Kol seems better than Dooku.

'The Old Man'

One and three go to Kol, those may have been really weak Sith that he fought but he did kinda own them and there were Stormtroopers there, too, Dooku could likely give him a decent or good fight in 1 and 3, though. 2 is impossible to say as we never see Kol use the Force, so I guess it goes to Dooku by default.

Yea but Dooku is one of the greatest swordsman in the 25000 year history of the Jedi order and became a better Sith. I'm inclined to say that Dooku could finesse his way thru the saber battle, and if he wins via the force, then i believe he would take all 3. None of which would be pwnage though.

Yea but Dooku is one of the greatest swordsman in the 25000 year history of the Jedi order and became a better Sith. I'm inclined to say that Dooku could finesse his way thru the saber battle, and if he wins via the force, then i believe he would take all 3. None of which would be pwnage though.

Yea but Dooku is one of the greatest swordsman in the 25000 year history of the Jedi order and became a better Sith. I'm inclined to say that Dooku could finesse his way thru the saber battle, and if he wins via the force, then i believe he would take all 3. None of which would be pwnage though.

Yeah but being one of the best swordsmen doesn't mean that much, I mean, it does, but it doesn't really put him above Kol, as if he's likely one of the best as well. Before Dooku the greatest saber wielders were Revan, Lord Hoth, Exar Kun (counts as a Jedi, before turning to the Dark Side) and Ulic. Kun and Ulic are uber for Padawans but are still a bit below Dooku, Hoth and Revan are debatable, so yeah, but Kol is above them as well. And judgind by the way he fought like over a dozen Sith at once and killed 7 or more of them, while fighting and killing Stormtroopers, too, well, I don't think Dooku could do all of that quite as easily as Kol did.

Thats because Makashi was specifically made for fighting a lightsaber wielding opponent, one on one. Not a dozen random sith plus stormtroopers.

Sorry for the triple post, my computer was lagging...

Now, right you are to an extent DS19, however, I recall this debate happening in another thread where Advent, I believe, pretty much debunked any assumption that those Sith were worth a damn, while still giving Kol his just due. While that feat was impressive (Kol's that is) Dooku has done aLOT of things, some of which are as impressive if not more. He tooled GG who killed how many Jedi, that were arguably more powerful that the fake Sith that Kol fought. Brought Ventress to her knees with a lift of his finger (albeit thats not saber work), kept up with Dooku after being tired, beat Mace as a Jedi, etc... I don't know, I just think dooku may be a step or two ahead of Kol, thus giving him the win.

Proof that Makashi is for saber fighting one on one and not just saber fighting in general?



Originally posted by darthsith19
those may have been really weak Sith that he fought but he did kinda own them and there were Stormtroopers there, too,


Tooled Grievous? When was this? LOE states that Dooku was often "hard-pressed to defeat the General." Grievous has killed many Jedi, but not all at once and never as many at once as Kol did.


Dooku kept up with himself?


Mace prior to TPM. The TPM novel stated that Qui-Gon rivaled Mace in saber combat, so that's not extremely impressive, as Kol could have beaten Qui-Gon as well.

Well, its described as the ultimate refinement in lightsaber-to-lightsaber combat. Note the words in bold are not plurals. One lightsaber vs one lightsaber.

Originally posted by darthsith19
Proof that Makashi is for saber fighting one on one and not just saber fighting in general?
Does it really matter? Go read the descriptions. The forms that are made for multiple opponents say so in the descriptions. It often says, "opponent" or "lightsaber to lightsaber" (singular) in the notes about the form.
Originally posted by darthsith19
Tooled Grievous? When was this? LOE states that Dooku was often "hard-pressed to defeat the General." Grievous has killed many Jedi, but not all at once and never as many at once as Kol did. How bout in the CW? Didn't Dooku beat him relatively easy in that?
Originally posted by darthsith19
Dooku kept up with himself? Yoda, you knew what I meant.


Originally posted by darthsith19
Mace prior to TPM. The TPM novel stated that Qui-Gon rivaled Mace in saber combat, so that's not extremely impressive, as Kol could have beaten Qui-Gon as well. Mace was still one of the best Jedi as far as lightsaber prowess and force ability which is why he was the youngest master to be put on the council (before Anakin), therefore still impressive. Also the fact that Dooku himself still improved over those 13 years and after joining the dark side.

They do? Where, quote an example.

When LOE contradicts the cartoon I generally tend to go with LOE, as the Cartoon often exaggerates the powers of some of the characters. We also don't know how long they were fighting for before Dooku won in the cartoon, the scene cuts to the fight.

Yoda was trying not to kill Dooku. Dooku wasn't that tired, anyways. In Dark Rendezvous Dooku has the dark side powers of Vjun empowering him when he fight Yoda and he is equal to Yoda at best.

But you said that AOTC Kenobi is above Jinn, right? And TPM Mace is about equal with Jinn with blades. Mace could have been put on the council for his wisdom rather than his power. Dooku may have gotten slightly stronger, what makes you say that he got stronger when he turned to the dark side, anyways?

Originally posted by Rampant ox
Well, its described as the ultimate refinement in lightsaber-to-lightsaber combat. Note the words in bold are not plurals. One lightsaber vs one lightsaber.
Ah, okay, then, but that still doesn't mean it's bad for fighting multiple opponents at once.

Originally posted by darthsith19
Ah, okay, then, but that still doesn't mean it's bad for fighting multiple opponents at once.

True. But seeing that fighting multiple enemies isnt what Makashi was built for, Dooku would be disadvantaged at figting more than one opponent, as oppose to Kol who (I presume) has a form which could give him the advantage.

Therefore your earlier post saying "I dont think Dooku could do all of that quite as easily as Kol did" would be unfair because Dooku has the natural form disadvantage.

Dooku was tired clearly DS, it says it in the novel, and Dooku clearly took a deep breath after Anakin, and the book describes how he had to work for that, and you always say Maul was tired, he certainly did not look it, even if the novel of something says it.

are you kidding, of course he got stronger when he went Sith, first of the darkside is stonger, certainly for a fight, and he got alot of new powers, and was training w/Sidious.

Originally posted by darthsith19
They do? Where, quote an example. Ox provided it.

Originally posted by darthsith19
When LOE contradicts the cartoon I generally tend to go with LOE, as the Cartoon often exaggerates the powers of some of the characters. We also don't know how long they were fighting for before Dooku won in the cartoon, the scene cuts to the fight. But if CW is said to be canon, you have to take it for face value. That honestly sounds like a cop-out, but if they are both canon, and we both choose the opposite source, we'd never resolve this.

Originally posted by darthsith19
Yoda was trying not to kill Dooku. Dooku wasn't that tired, anyways. In Dark Rendezvous Dooku has the dark side powers of Vjun empowering him when he fight Yoda and he is equal to Yoda at best.
Yea, but Yoda was still swinging on him with "killing blows" (sorry ) and could have done so, as I'm sure even though he wasn't trying to kill him, he would be willing to if necessary. Anyways, Dooku was tired from Anakin (whether you want to accept it or not) and still stood toe-to-toe with is former master. If you downplay that feat, Ox will be outside your window tonight with a machete and a plastic Dooku lightsaber from Toys R Us...i know...my screen is still ripped.

Originally posted by darthsith19
But you said that AOTC Kenobi is above Jinn, right? And TPM Mace is about equal with Jinn with blades. Mace could have been put on the council for his wisdom rather than his power. Dooku may have gotten slightly stronger, what makes you say that he got stronger when he turned to the dark side, anyways? Did I say that? Don't recall saying that, but its possible.

"There are two conflicting canon sources for this article, from Labyrinth of Evil and Star Wars: Clone Wars. A cohesive timeline has not yet been devised by Lucasfilm Ltd. Editor discretion is advised."

"Mace Windu was a Korun Jedi Master/Jedi Guardian and one of the last members of the Jedi High Council before the Great Jedi Purge. Windu was often regarded as second only to Grand Master Yoda on the Council, though eight centuries his junior. His wisdom and power were legendary, as were the weight of his words. Mace Windu was widely considered one of the best swordsmen in the Jedi Order due to his creation of Vaapad, the modern seventh form of lightsaber combat. It is said that only Grand Master Yoda and Mace's old friend Dooku could beat him in lightsaber combat."

"At a very early age, Mace learned of his unusual ability to see shatterpoints in the Force and how they would affect all of his future actions as well as the vulnerabilities of his opponents. With these unique abilities, he had glimpses of parts of his future, such as the lightsaber he would eventually build. At the age of fourteen..."

"Prodigiously talented in the Force, Mace passed the trials early and was appointed to the Jedi Council at the age of 28 after his exploits during the Arkanian Revolution where he fought the cyborg Gorm the Dissolver."

As you can see, he had shatter point ability before he was even 14, so Im quite sure than by TPM he was more than proficient with a lightsaber, even without Vaapad. Also note only Yoda and Dooku could (not did) beat him. Dooku is simply a beast with a lightsaber.

Thank you Kiddo for the back up on Dooku being tired. I dont have the book to quote.

And as far as him becoming more powerful as a Sith, look no further than the quote that Escape posts almost daily, "One of the most powerful Jedi inthe order's 25,000 year history...and an even greater Sith."

How can you refute that?

also;


"Powers and Abilities
Dooku is recognized as being gifted with extraordinary potential in the force, and frequently uses it in combat, throwing large objects such as rocks and pillars at his opponents and at times telekinetically lifting his opponents and hurling them. He is also capable of using Sith lightning, and is a lightsaber champion as the consummate master of Makashi, the only swordsman apart from Yoda traditionally held capable of defeating Mace Windu. As a user of Makashi, his greatest strength is one on one lightsaber to lightsaber combat."

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
If you downplay that feat, Ox will be outside your window tonight with a machete and a plastic Dooku lightsaber from Toys R Us...i know...my screen is still ripped.

So can Dooku beat Windu in Episode 2 or Episode 3?

that is obviously close, but i would go with the Count, he has shown greater force powers.
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/445610_1-rots-mace-windu-vs-rots-count-dooku

Originally posted by kiddo44
that is obviously close, but i would go with the Count, he has shown greater force powers.
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/445610_1-rots-mace-windu-vs-rots-count-dooku

Greater? Not so sure. More? Yes.

Dooku has used lightning on many occasions, casually choked Quinlan, brought down Asajj with one finger, used the force to rid himself of poisonous spores, used the force to stop Grievous from dying, his force pushes have been compared to stone walls, and, he has even put Yoda through some stress when Yoda initially blocked Dooku's lightning.

Also, he had 70+ years of learning from either Yoda (the most powerful Jedi), or Sidious (the Granddaddy of all Sith), and probably learned more than would be expected in those decades, due to his lust for power and him being a prodigy (along with access to all sorts of Holocrons).

Dooku, also, despite being a gentleman, knows how to fight dirty when it is called for (the infamous "Kenobi chuck", breaking a students arm in a force competition as a Padawan, and having droids interfere when he Mace confronted him ).

Mace, however, has the physical, mental (thanks to Vaapad), and style (Vaapad is great against darksiders, and kinetic enough to challenge Dooku blade to blade, plus there is the semi-divine Shatterpoint ability) advantages over Dooku. Mace would win in a saber fight (he even beat Sidious), and his raw force powers (stopping hundreds of tons of debris in an avalanche) are enough to hold off Dooku's own, so that he could win in an all out fight. However, Dooku would win in a straight force fight, thanks to his versatility.

If this post has gotten too off topic, just skip the last paragraph, and it is all relative.

Also, for today: **** parallel sentence structure.

Dooku wins here, i think Advent said(i could be wrong) in a Kol and Dooku versus Yoda and ROTS Kenobi thread, he isnt even good as ROTS Kenobi.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
Ox provided it. Anyways, Dooku was tired from Anakin (whether you want to accept it or not) and still stood toe-to-toe with is former master. If you downplay that feat, Ox will be outside your window tonight with a machete and a plastic Dooku lightsaber from Toys R Us...i know...my screen is still ripped.

-Thats one of the funniest things i ever heard.

Dooku should win #2.

He wins all 3, i think.

Being able to school a handful of Sith minions is hardly such an extraordinary display that would even rank him remotely near to Count Dooku in power.

Yes, Kol destroyed seven untalented lackeys, which would've been wonderful had his fourteen year old son not be able to completely curbstomp one of them only using his "Foot of Fury".

I would be rather shocked if a Jedi master like Kol Skywalker wasn't able to defeat that many enemies, given he has many more years of training than his son, and Shado Vao (who both had only ten years of basic training, considering they were young padawans), who - even when outnumbered - managed to overwhelm their adversaries.

As I've made crystal clear before it's impressive, but certainly not overly so to the point where he can contend, or rather beat the top dogs of the prequel era. That's just a ludicrous assumption to make based on that feat alone. I can see that darthsith has acknowledged (termed loosely) they were "weak", but the point I'm making is then it's no reason to assert Kol can defeat Tyranus in a lightsaber match, much less an all out fight (where the ball is in Tyranus' corner, with his vast power and abilities of the Force).

Really, this battle isn't 'close' in the least bit, inasmuch as Count Dooku firmly takes all three.

Originally posted by vader11
Kol seems better than Dooku.

I disagree completely. Show me where Kol has displayed powers on the level of Count Dooku. Show me where he's declared to be one of the strongest beings that Star Wars has ever known, or even one of the strongest Jedi. Indeed, show me where he has demonstrated the capabilities to withstand Obi-Wan Kenobi, Anakin Skywalker, and then fend off a Jedi master of Yoda's caliber for an amount of time.

Get back to me once you turn on the power switch in your brain, and use it.

Originally posted by darthsith19
One and three go to Kol

According to your personal hard-on for Kol Skywalker?

None go to Kol.



Yeah, a batch of non-Force sensitives accompanied an equally weak batch of Force sensitives, huzzah for Kol Skywalker and his posse. *rollseyes*



You're a little delusional here. The only "decent" fighting would be from Kol's end, as he's the one who's losing here. Of course, I'm giving him some leeway here in his powers, considering we know virtually nothing about his prowess in the Force (based on what we know, the third round wouldn't differ much from that of the duel on the Invisible Hand with Obi-Wan Kenobi).



Hardly. Labyrinth of Evil doesn't remark that he "often" had difficulty handling General Grievous, it actually says that "there had been moments", which is a huge leap backwards from "often" (insomuch as it implies he was constantly pushed near/to his upper limit). Even then, having trouble doesn't necessarily equate to fully exerting himself.

By the way, this numbers game you're playing is asinine to say the least. Grievous may not have killed a number of foes on the scale of Kol, but you have to take into account who said foes were. Kol Skywalker fought numerous makeshift Sith goons (who's powers are even less than elementary schooled padawans), Grievous defeated five powerful Jedi, including two Council members, as well as Aayla Secura. The difference in strength is comparable to that of a third degree black belt to a petty street thug.



Alright then. Since you know the source, providing a quote should be no problem.



For one, as Darth Subjekt has already given, Count Dooku was directly described by narration to be exactly "one of the most respected and powerful Jedi in the Order's twenty-five-thousand-year history", and then it goes on to note that he's "an even greater Sith". And even if I disregarded the quote, it's illogical to assume otherwise. The dark side of the Force is the path to power, which is why we see Anakin perform better when giving into his emotions (as well, the same case applies for his son, and Obi-Wan Kenobi). It's indisputable what the stronger side of the Force is, which would be Dark, not Light.

Originally posted by jollyjim311
Greater? Not so sure. More? Yes.

The statement was: "he has shown greater Force powers". Which is absolutely correct.

And as it stands, nothing suggests that Kol Skywalker possesses the capabilities to match Count Dooku's exceptional strength in the Force.

Oh, and for anyone who wants to play quote or feat wars (darthsith):

Originally posted by Advent
Dooku is called by narration to be exactly "one of the most respected and powerful Jedi in the Order's twenty-five-thousand-year history", and is stated to be "an even greater Sith" (by narration, and Yoda's dialogue indicates this as well); albeit, it's true he's not "number 2" of the era, but he's what? Like the fifth best in an era where the Jedi Order is at its prime? Above the likes of Obi-Wan, Grievous, Sora, Maul, etc. A little more impressive , I'd say.

Let's see, his displays of Force mastery suggests his power is tremendous (Dooku choked out Komari Vosa). There's the fact ROTS Obi-Wan isn't even a match for Dooku's Force power, he was owned at literally the flick of the wrist:

"He gathered the Force once more in a single indrawn breath that summoned power from throughout the universe; the slightest whipcrack of that power, negligent as a flick of his wrist, sent Kenobi flying backward to crash hard against the wall."

Also note that he did this while fending off Anakin. He also did tool Asajj Ventress, who we know is pretty powerful. Not the strongest, but still. And he also - with one finger - brought Ventress down to her knees:

"Her face went pale. Dooku lifted that one finger, and this time he tapped it in the air, as if pushing a needle into a pincushion. Ventress crumpled to her knees. Her voice came out clotted with pain. Dooku made another little patting motion, and Ventress slammed to the tile floor. "

So, we have a flick of the wrist, a tap of the finger, patting motion. "Strong in the Force this one is", eh? From the AOTC novelization, when he puts Anakin out of commission for a time:

"Dooku's hand shot out toward the charging Jedi, sending forth a Force push as solid as any stone wall, and a burst of blue Force lightning. With a wave of his hand, Dooku sent Anakin flying across the room, to crash into a distant wall, where he slumped down, dazed.

He was able to completely revitalize himself using just the Force (ROTS novel), suggesting he doesn't need some dumbass Jedi captives to do it. We know he's obviously a proficient Force lightning user by his displays in AOTC, and other various things. He was able to own Sora Bulq, and knock him out with Force lightning:

http://img182.imageshack.us/img182/4374/sorapwnedys9.th.jpg

As seen in the background is Tholme, who himself is no weakling was battling with Sora Bulq 2-on-1, and even so Dooku still beat Sora, and right after spared Tholme, only of course, after owning him with his saber as well:

http://img182.imageshack.us/img182/2785/tholmedookuduelga6.th.jpg

Really though, Dooku has a vast amount of training, and experience over Malak. Roughly 80+ years of it. Since we know he was trained as a youngling, he has about 70+ years experience as a Jedi, and 13 years as a Sith Lord. Now, we know experience definitely isn't everything, however, to deny it gives an advantage is purely ridiculous. For example, throughout those years - he is stated to know "Every weakness of Ataru" (his duel against Yoda obviously didn't end in a victory, however, Yoda's pure skill is probably better than anything).

And within those years, has mastered Makashi - the lightsaber to lightsaber form - to it's highest degree. Admittedly, forms are necessity for victory, however, it's clue that Dooku's lightsaber skills are no joke.

He has also bested Mace Windu in personal combat before, now Windu wasn't at his peak, however, he still beat him (it's kind of irrelevant to even bring up, but just to add to the fact). He's also described as a "consummate planner, consummate duelist." Consummate meaning perfect or to the highest degree. Clearly Dooku's skill with a lightsaber is amazing. Even Yoda comments on his skills:

"Yoda stirred again with his stick. "Then best of all would be the strongest student, yes? Wisest? Most learned in the ways of the Force?" He nodded. "Best of all, Dooku would be!"

Calling him the strongest student, and one that has learned the most. We also know Dooku is more powerful than Grievous, who has slain numerous Jedi Masters with ease (Council member as well), Asajj Ventress, and so on.

And I have plenty more ammunition in the bag.

I just said he 'seems' better than Dooku when he was fighting those siths. I didn't mean he's really better than Dooku overall.

I don't recall me suggesting otherwise. I stated that I disagreed with that, and then went on to essentially show why (in the form of the "show me this and that".

He doesn't "seem" any greater than Count Dooku whatsoever, which was the entire point. Your wording is largely irrelevant.

OK...maybe I was wrong. Now I say Dooku may be better than Kol overall.

Doesn't Kol appear solely in the Legacy comics? If so, then that's a rather limited source.

We still don't know much about Kol, perhaps he is better than we thought.

At the moment, I believe they are incomparable. The sources are uneven, with everything going in Dooku's favour. We don't even know anything about the Sith Kol decimates in his last stand, yet Dooku's backstory is quickly being uncovered to rack in the money from enthusiastic fans.

Maybe in a few years, we will have a name and a backstory for each of those Sith Kol kills, and he might be comparable to Dooku, regardless of if he is stronger or not.

I will say this now in Kol's favour though, as weak a point as it is; he is a Skywalker.

Ya, he is a "Skywalker".
No one really knows how powerful he is if he reaches his peak. He may be better than Dooku at his FP.

This idle speculation is all good, and well, but it has no room in such a thread like this. Based on what we do know, Count Dooku takes the cake in all three matches (and there's no logical deduction or reasoning possible that would place him on par, or even above him).

Originally posted by exanda kane
I will say this now in Kol's favour though, as weak a point as it is; he is a Skywalker.

If that's not a joke, you're a ****ing idiot.

Now it is in Dooku's favor, not Kol, maybe until there are something more about Kol is released.

Originally posted by Advent
This idle speculation is all good, and well, but it has no room in such a thread like this. Based on what we do know, Count Dooku takes the cake in all three matches (and there's no logical deduction or reasoning possible that would place him on par, or even above him).

If that's not a joke, you're a ****ing idiot.

Grow up kid. Who's the one getting touchy over Star Wars nostalgia?

Oh, will you shut up already? You act as if I really give a shit if you believe Kol has an edge simply because his last name is "Skywalker".

Hint #1: I don't.

It's called "debating", it's what this entire part of the forum is for. Spare me your bullshit.

Hint #2: Because it's old, and annoying.

If you dish out the insults, you've got to be prepared to show some integrity kiddo.

Fact is, hardly anything is known about Kol Skywalker and if you really think the writers of the Legacy series are going to let an ancestor of one of pop cultures most iconic heroes, Luke, die a really underwhelming death with no show of that elusive Skywalker spirit, then you are very much mistaken.

One day, there will be a demand from fans to find out more about Kol Skywalker and the floodgates for OTT displays of manga-style NJO magic will have opened.

If I wanted to know the "future" of Kol Skywalker, I'd go to a fortune teller.

As it appears now, it's entirely irrelevant on what Kol may possess, or what writers may show him capable of doing, because when looking at the situation as it stands, he doesn't have any type of advantage, and he won't win.

Fact is, I don't really care about any of what's to come; it has no bearing on this discussion, and your point (that he has an edge based on his last name) is still moronic.

I thought I might get some intelligent response, something analytical, something interesting, albeit, my hopes were dashed. Trying to compare these characters as it stands now, is simply moronic, one has 2 movie appearences to his name, plus a huge wealth of material from novels, videogames and comics also feature him. Kol appears in one comic.

The real fact here, despite what you may be decieving yourself about, is that the Skywalker license is a lucrative one indeed, and it goes in favour of the character. In a few years time, when the Legacy era is fleshed out, then Kol will have feats to his name Luke might be proud of. Save your debate until then.

As provided, Dooku is one of the most powerful Jedi of all times and a greater Sith. But the point is we don't know enough about Kol to exactly determine how powerful he was. Technically, he is an unknown. We can only say about him by what we saw in this comic, which is only enough to know maybe two things about him, and those things are definitely NOT enough. We can safely assume, however, he had a hell of a lot potential, seeing he's a Skywalker.

Originally posted by exanda kane
I thought I might get some intelligent response, something analytical, something interesting, albeit, my hopes were dashed.

Oh, I'm so sorry.

I forgot who I'm dealing with here. *rollseyes*



The thread was made, ergo arguments are expected to be made, too. I suppose Janus, and the rest of the crew's act of arguing Vodo-Siosk Baas was more powerful than Yoda was 'moronic', as well, considering he appears in all of two comics, and one book (and it should be noted he barely does anything). As opposed to Yoda, who was in five of the movies, a huge wealth of material from novels, and an extremely vast amount of appearances throughout many comic series.

The point is, it's not 'moronic' to say character x beats y using current evidence, especially when the question is asked.

You know jack shit about what Kol might do, son. It's speculative to say he will have demonstrated such power, and your brain (now I know it's tiny, but I've been trying to keep that in mind) still has yet to comprehend the fact that it is completely, and utterly illogical to claim the battle is in "Kol's favor" based on his last name.

I find it rather comedic that you would give me a song and dance about how it's stupid to compare these characters, but magically, Kol gets the edge in battle. Luke in ANH was a Skywalker, too. I guess he'll give Count Dooku the beat down, as well.

No, the real facts are: 1) when matching these two up, as this thread is meant for, Count Dooku wins based on what we know, 2) Kol's last name doesn't necessarily automatically equate to him being greater than anyone, 3) what the writers might pencil in is irrelevant, because it hasn't happened, and we do not know if he'll show any monstrous displays of power.

Since you don't possess the ability to tell the future, you have no point. Since the versus forum is made to compare characters (whether how little or not the number of sources on them is), I am completely justified in claiming Count Dooku will win as it were.

Actually, **** all of that, if you don't want this type of response, go somewhere else. I don't deal with the type of bullshit you're spewing.

(Edit)

Originally posted by Riverollv
But the point is we don't know enough about Kol to exactly determine how powerful he was.

No shit, Sherlock. I guess someone should hire you next time we need an obvious clue revealed to us all.

I simply don't give a rat's ass about that, as arguments were being made for Kol being superior to Count Dooku. Since those have been made, I have the right to debunk them, and argue as it is. That's the point you, and exanda are missing.

Originally posted by Advent
(Edit)

No shit, Sherlock. I guess someone should hire you next time we need an obvious clue revealed to us all.

I simply don't give a rat's ass about that, as arguments were being made for Kol being superior to Count Dooku. Since those have been made, I have the right to debunk them, and argue as it is. That's the point you, and exanda are missing.

Yes, I know you have the right to debunk them and it's perfectly fine if you argue against them, but I believe it's necessary to count that. Actually, what I said mostly goes for those who say Kol is better.

"Necessary to count" what? That he's an unknown? I've outright been stating that with the current proof all logic dictates that Count Dooku is the superior.

I have no intentions of arguing that Count Dooku kicks the ever living shit out of the unknown Kol Skywalker. There's a difference between the "unknown" Kol, and the "known" Kol. Darthsith is stating that the 'known' version is greater than Count Dooku, which is simply false. If that even makes sense.

It's comparable to Marka Ragnos, for all we know he's the second most powerful Sith Lord with power rivaling Darth Sidious, but as of what he has shown, Kyle Katarn could take him down. So if someone is going to state "z0mg teh Ragn0s r > Kile Caturn!", they'd be quite wrong. I agree with you in general, though.

Originally posted by Advent
'known' version is greater than Count Dooku, which is simply false. If that even makes sense.

Yes, If the case is about the "known" version of Kol, I absolutely agree Count Dooku's better

Originally posted by kiddo44
that is obviously close, but i would go with the Count, he has shown greater force powers.
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/445610_1-rots-mace-windu-vs-rots-count-dooku [/QUOTE


Master Windu can beat Dooku

Originally posted by LORDSIDIOUS01
Master Windu can beat Dooku

Oh, what a compelling argument.

But of course, you are basing that foolish assumption off the simple fact that Mace has more votes (at least thats what I assume, seeing you havent provided a shred of evidence to support the claim). Well did it ever occur to you that people simply like Mace more than Dooku - hence his larger number of votes. After all, Mace is played by the BMF himself. He is bald, black, fit and has his own personalised lightsaber. Dooku on the other hand is a far less intimidating gentleman, who is best known for his arrogance and charisma. Im sure that most people, especially the younger generation, would prefer Mace over Dooku. He can be seen as a 'cooler' character. For all you know that is the reason for Mace's larger number of votes, and as such the initial claim is ridiculous.

Don't foget that he hates Dooku.

Advent clearly doesn't know what she's talking about, as the fact that Kol is a Skywalker has everything to do with him winning in this matchup. Fact is, Skywalker force potential is > any other force sensitives' in the entire mythos, and >>>> Dooku's, so I really don't see how Dooku's supposed to take on an extremely well experienced Skywalker (which Kol clearly is), and win, when he couldn't even handle one with hardly more than ten years worth of experience.

Originally posted by Advent
You know jack shit about what Kol might do, son. It's speculative to say he will have demonstrated such power, and your brain (now I know it's tiny, but I've been trying to keep that in mind) still has yet to comprehend the fact that it is completely, and utterly illogical to claim the battle is in "Kol's favor" based on his last name.


Yet again, you will distort facts in your favour. I precisely did not say that the battle would go in Kol's favour. I was careful with my words because I knew someone like you, who deals in absolutes, would not be able to comprehend a neutral statement. Never have I, irrelevant of what others might have said, stated that Kol would have an edge against Dooku, and indeed, I voted for Dooku in the poll because as it stands now, as your farcibly superior intelligence demoted you to say, Dooku would prove the victor. Yes on the evidence as it stands now, Dooku is the victor, that's a given.

What I will comment on is that expecting to reach a sensible answer to this match up, you will have to realise that one participant appears in one single, limited source. Compared to his opponent, who has two movie appearences to his name, novels, game appearances and comics, he might aswell just be a name. These are the markings of a flawed argument. How can you possibly reach a concensus when you only have one, unreliable source? That is moronic. Take your ignorant answer if you want, but your proving nothing.

Originally posted by Reality Cell
Advent clearly doesn't know what she's talking about, as the fact that Kol is a Skywalker has everything to do with him winning in this matchup. Fact is, Skywalker force potential is > any other force sensitives' in the entire mythos, and >>>> Dooku's, so I really don't see how Dooku's supposed to take on an extremely well experienced Skywalker (which Kol clearly is), and win, when he couldn't even handle one with hardly more than ten years worth of experience.

The fact that he is a Skywalker hardly means he gains an instant victory. Thats a huge assumption, and a rather foolish one at that. If im not mistaken Anakin was a Skywalker in AOTC, and that didnt stop Dooku taking a figurative sh*t on him.
More to the point, Dooku has a large and impressive resume, one that dwarfs anything that Kol has shown us. To debate with feats that have not yet taken place, and basing your entire point on a characters last name is not an argument. More like wishful thinking.

EDIT: Kol can have all the potential in the world, it doesnt mean jack if he doesnt know how to properly utilise it.

Originally posted by Reality Cell
Advent clearly doesn't know what she's talking about, as the fact that Kol is a Skywalker has everything to do with him winning in this matchup. Fact is, Skywalker force potential is > any other force sensitives' in the entire mythos, and >>>> Dooku's, so I really don't see how Dooku's supposed to take on an extremely well experienced Skywalker (which Kol clearly is), and win, when he couldn't even handle one with hardly more than ten years worth of experience.

You really have to look at this objectively, because your point as I see it now, is flawed. True, he may well be a Skywalker, but we have little to no knowledge of the Skywalker lineage after Ben; for all we know, Kol may be a Skywalker by name, not blood. No, that's not likely, but he might aswell mark him off as a pretender until we get more sources.

What we can say though is that Kol was created with the soul purpose of dying, inspiring his son, Cade, who is the main protagonist of the series. Dooku was created with the soul purpose of being an instrument of Sidious for the films. They are both disposable characters, and any feats in the EU they have accomplished so far were achieved because the writers needed to flesh out the characters. Kol though, has noticeably less material to his credit. The difference between Kol and Dooku, is that Kol does bear the Skywalker name, and that is very important for selling the series off the shelf.

We can only speculate on Kol for now, as to compare them on "force potential" and the rest of it at the moment, is moronic. What we can speculate is that given Cade Skywalker's importance in the new saga, Kol's loss has to be a great loss; he has to be a great Jedi hero for his death to mean anything, or he's about as poignant as Owen Lars. In a few years timee, when we have more on Kol, this argument won't be fundamentally flawed. Keep the answer you reach for now, but it's moronic to hold that to heart.

So what if he is a Skywalker, not all Skywalkers have the same amount of potential, Shmi is a Skywalker to, would anybody say, that she would kick ass.

Originally posted by Rampant ox
The fact that he is a Skywalker hardly means he gains an instant victory. Thats a huge assumption, and a rather foolish one at that. If im not mistaken Anakin was a Skywalker in AOTC, and that didnt stop Dooku taking a figurative sh*t on him.
More to the point, Dooku has a large and impressive resume, one that dwarfs anything that Kol has shown us. To debate with feats that have not yet taken place, and basing your entire point on a characters last name is not an argument. More like wishful thinking.

EDIT: Kol can have all the potential in the world, it doesnt mean jack if he doesnt know how to properly utilise it.

Your argument fails because you ignored the fact that Kol is quite clearly a well experienced and fairly old Jedi, meaning he's had the opportunities and training to hone his potential.

Originally posted by Rampant ox
You really have to look at this objectively, because your point as I see it now, is flawed. True, he may well be a Skywalker, but we have little to no knowledge of the Skywalker lineage after Ben; for all we know, Kol may be a Skywalker by name, not blood. No, that's not likely, but he might aswell mark him off as a pretender until we get more sources.

It's been confirmed that Kol and Cade are part of the Skywalker bloodline, it's under their profiles in Legacy #0.



*Yawn*
Booooooooooooring!



No, it's not. Much more force potential + quite a lot of experience to hone it = dead Dooku.

Originally posted by Rampant ox
So what if he is a Skywalker, not all Skywalkers have the same amount of potential, Shmi is a Skywalker to, would anybody say, that she would kick ass.

The descendant of the force Skywalker potential starts with Anakin Skywalker, so this is where your argument fails. Shmi came before that, not afterwards, like Kol. Skywalker potential has been confirmed to be genetic, meaning it's at least close to Anakin's. Even if Anakin's was double Kol's (which it isn't), Kol's had more than double the training and experience. Kol > Dooku.

Originally posted by Reality Cell

*Yawn*
Booooooooooooring!

No, it's not. Much more force potential + quite a lot of experience to hone it = dead Dooku.



Give us some sources then if you justify this isn't a moronic argument.

Those positive traits would be degraded as time went on, due to marriage with people less force-sensitive and the like. You have no way of knowing how much more Anakin is -- for all we know, Kol's only barely force-sensitive. Belching up these arguments simply because you *think* that he has more force potential (of course, there's no evidence for that, just as there is really no evidence for anything else in his favor, aside from being able to beat some stormtroopers and lightsaber goons) is, quite simply, pathetic.

Nebaris sock???

Originally posted by Count Makashi
So what if he is a Skywalker, not all Skywalkers have the same amount of potential, Shmi is a Skywalker to, would anybody say, that she would kick ass. Good point.

Originally posted by Advent
The statement was: "he has shown greater Force powers". Which is absolutely correct.

And as it stands, nothing suggests that Kol Skywalker possesses the capabilities to match Count Dooku's exceptional strength in the Force.


I was talking about Mace Windu compared to Dooku, not Kol. It's understandable to mix it up though, seeing as how I was off topic.


Originally posted by Reality Cell
Advent clearly doesn't know what she's talking about, as the fact that Kol is a Skywalker has everything to do with him winning in this matchup. Fact is, Skywalker force potential is > any other force sensitives' in the entire mythos, and >>>> Dooku's, so I really don't see how Dooku's supposed to take on an extremely well experienced Skywalker (which Kol clearly is), and win, when he couldn't even handle one with hardly more than ten years worth of experience.

Are you ready for punches, Little guy?