AOTC Mace vs AOTC Dooku

Text-only Version: Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.



vader11
Most people may say ROTS Mace would beat ROTS Dooku. But how about if they are AOTC versions? I think Mace has improved more than Dooku after the Clone Wars. So can Dooku beat him?

1. Sabers only
2. Force only(no sabers)
3. All out

kiddo44
where do you get most people think ROTS Mace could beat ROTS Dooku?

vader11
In my mind most people here, including "Count Dooku's number 1 fan", Count Makashi, believes that ROTS Mace would beat ROTS Dooku.

kiddo44
i don't think it would be that much different from AOTC to ROTS. Anyway the ROTS v ROTS.
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/445610_1-rots-mace-windu-vs-rots-count-dooku

vader11
I think there are still some differences between AOTC Mace & ROTS Mace. Also, most people who "left comments" suggested ROTS Mace would win.

LORDSIDIOUS01
AOTC Mace can definitely beat AOTC Dooku.

Rampant ox
Originally posted by LORDSIDIOUS01
AOTC Dooku can definitely beat AOTC Mace.

vader11
He is a super anti-Dooku fanboy, he may even say TPM Mace can definitely beat ROTS Dooku.

Darth Subjekt
Dooku wins...not pwnage, but he's the better swordsman.

jollyjim311
About even, probably. However, after the events of Shatterpoint and when Mace has no fear left, then he can beat any version of Dooku.

I'm calling this one a draw, though.

darthsith19
1. Mace. They fought with blades in Obsession and Dooku fled, using his Magnaguards to distract Mace. This was after he got all excited over the fact that he got to fight and kill Jedi. There's no reason why he'd have ran from battle unless he thought that he couldn't win. Add to that that Mace is younger than Dooku and will therefor tire less easily, and that he has Vaapad, which gives him advantages against darksiders, and Dooku is a darksider. In LOE Dooku states that he if often "hard pressed to defeat the general ". In LOE Mace was a bit weary of Grievous, and wanted to end the fight as quickly as possible, but the duel still wasn't exceptionally long or close. Mace also took out Sidious in a lightsaber duel.
2. Maybe Dooku. Outside from the Cartoon, Mace has used the Force to create a kind of bridge out of rocks, to save some children from a tank, can't really remember all the details, he has also used the Force to increase his speed until he is so fast that his hands are invisible. But as far as I know he can't block lightning without a blade, so I suppose Dooku wins.
3. Mace wins. Again, Dooku ran from battle with him in Obsession. Mace is also stated to be on par with Yoda, and Yoda is ahead of Dooku, and Mace would be even better at fighting darksiders than Yoda is due to Vaapad.

So Mace wins all except perhaps #2.

vader11
Originally posted by darthsith19
1. Mace. They fought with blades in Obsession and Dooku fled, using his Magnaguards to distract Mace. This was after he got all excited over the fact that he got to fight and kill Jedi. There's no reason why he'd have ran from battle unless he thought that he couldn't win. Add to that that Mace is younger than Dooku and will therefor tire less easily, and that he has Vaapad, which gives him advantages against darksiders, and Dooku is a darksider. In LOE Dooku states that he if often "hard pressed to defeat the general ". In LOE Mace was a bit weary of Grievous, and wanted to end the fight as quickly as possible, but the duel still wasn't exceptionally long or close. Mace also took out Sidious in a lightsaber duel.
2. Maybe Dooku. Outside from the Cartoon, Mace has used the Force to create a kind of bridge out of rocks, to save some children from a tank, can't really remember all the details, he has also used the Force to increase his speed until he is so fast that his hands are invisible. But as far as I know he can't block lightning without a blade, so I suppose Dooku wins.
3. Mace wins. Again, Dooku ran from battle with him in Obsession. Mace is also stated to be on par with Yoda, and Yoda is ahead of Dooku, and Mace would be even better at fighting darksiders than Yoda is due to Vaapad.

So Mace wins all except perhaps #2. They are AOTC versions, not ROTS or Obsession.

kiddo44
in that fight Mace did not even get close to touching Dooku, yeah Dooku got out of there, but who knows what would have happened. Don't act like Mace was beating him.

In the Force, Not Even close Dooku wins.

jollyjim311
Originally posted by kiddo44
In the Force, Not Even close Dooku wins.

Very close, but yes, Dooku would win.

Gideon
Actually, I'd say that Mace got quite close to 'touching' Dooku in that instance. After all, Count Dooku left explicit instructions to his men that they were to "leave the Jedi to !" Yet, when confronted with Mace, Dooku decides to flee and has a third party interfere to facilitate his escape.

While it is possible to argue that Dooku and Mace are each more powerful than the other, it is unquestionable that Mace is - at the very, very least - quite close to Dooku's own level of skill.



We're not. Dooku decided to flee before the fight could continue, apparently out of fear of Mace. I suppose I'd advise you to not pretend that Dooku was beating Mace. wink

vader11
Yeah Dooku would probably win the force fight.

exanda kane
Originally posted by darthsith19
1. Mace. They fought with blades in Obsession and Dooku fled, using his Magnaguards to distract Mace. This was after he got all excited over the fact that he got to fight and kill Jedi. There's no reason why he'd have ran from battle unless he thought that he couldn't win.


In Obsession Dooku seemed to hold his ground. However, as the latter panels portrayed, the Republic would shortly defeat the Seperaists; it was a loosing battle, the CIS were moderatedly unprepared for the attac k and if he would have stayed, he would have had to fend off Obi-Wan, Anakin, Ki-Adi Mundi, Sesse Tinn, Plo Koon, A'Sharad Hett and Agen Kolar. Dooku had enough sense to realise this and had every reason to run from that battle.

kiddo44
Originally posted by jollyjim311
Very close, but yes, Dooku would win. very close, don't see how. confused http://images.wikia.com/starwars/images/thumb/0/06/Dooku_Obi-wan_choke.JPG/180px-Dooku_Obi-wan_choke.JPGhttp://images.wikia.com/starwars/images/thumb/6/6f/DookuBZZZ.jpg/250px-DookuBZZZ.jpg

jollyjim311
Well then, have you read Shatterpoint or seen the Clone Wars animated series?

Burnt Pancakes
Considering that most SIth, even the weaker ones, can use Lightning I don't think that displays much power. And force choking a completely surprised Obi-Wan is nothing, as well.

darthsith19
So what? As far as I know Dooku and Mace didn't get stronger nor weaker during the Clone Wars.


Okay then, zam, why did Dooku run if he wasn't losing or going to lose? Name one other reason. Yoda didn't get close to touching Dooku in AOTC, either, and Dooku fled. Kenobi and Zule Xiss never got close to Asajj in The Defense of Kamino and she fled. Maul never got close to Qui-Gon when they fought on Tatioone yet Qui-Gon fled.


Yeah, and AOTC Anakin seemed to hold his ground for the first 30 seconds of the duel with Dooku, didn't he? But later he lost. And Dooku held his ground with Yoda, didn't he? But he still fled because he could tell that he was going to lose.



Anakin and Kenobi were busy dealing with Asajj. True the other Jedi would soon have came, but not that soon, if the battle was that close to being over, why would Dooku have wanted to fight any Jedi and not have just fled right away? That doesn't make sense.


OMG, Dooku has lightning, so does Quinlan Vos, he must be able to pwn all now, right? roll eyes (sarcastic) And Mace is far more advanced than Kenobi is with the Force...

kiddo44
well other than what Kane said, it was not worth the effort, there is no question those 2 are very close, and Dooku would have to use all of his powers to beat him but considering the situation w/ Anakin and kenobi coming it was not the place for a fight, im not acting like the fight would be easy, but he could take him out.

is he? far more?

to claim him force choking Kenobi in ROTS, while he slams Anakin into wall with a kick is nothing is crazy, you can not downplay that, Mace could not have done that.

Gideon
Unfortunately, the situation is this: Count Dooku had no compunctions about squaring off against Yoda everyone knows to be more powerful than Mace] on two occasions, and he fled when he knew he wasn't going to win. The situation is similar here: Dooku expressed the intent to handle the Jedi himself not too long before Mace arrived. And yet after a brief duel, he orders the Magnaguards to interfere to admittedly facilitate his escape.

Like it or not, Mace defeated Palpatine, because Mace has two unique weapons that neither Palpatine - and therein, Dooku - has no defense against: Vaapad and Shatterpoint. Vaapad is innately effective against Sith and dark siders, turning the strength of the dark side into a "weapon of the light", and Shatterpoint allows Mace to detect weaknesses in anything that has them.

He is better than Dooku, saberwise.

Burnt Pancakes
Originally posted by kiddo44
to claim him force choking Kenobi in ROTS, while he slams Anakin into wall with a kick is nothing is crazy, you can not downplay that, Mace could not have done that.

No.. he kicks Anakin, and THEN levitates and tosses him. And Mace used the force to both levitate an entire ROCK SLIDE in the air while holding back Magma, AND saving a group of kids in a tractor from falling off a cliff, if I remeber right.

Dooku couldn't do that no expression

Gideon
Neither could Chuck Norris. Only one has the power (other than Mace) to perform such a feat: REXXX!

Burnt Pancakes
Chuck is above REX.

Gideon
Originally posted by Burnt Pancakes
Chuck is above REX.

Like hell he is.

darthsith19
It wasn't worth the effort to kill Mace when he could have? Right, and why would it not be worth the effort? Kenobi and Anakin were not coming, they were busy fighting Asajj and trying to get her to turn back to the lightside. And I sure would like to see proof why Dooku could take Mace out. The Dooku supporters have yet to post any of that stuff, y'know.



Yup. Otherwise Dooku would have just owned Mace with the Force in Obsession as he did with Kenobi in ROTS.


Maybe he could have, Anakin wasn't fighting his best for fear of hurting Kenobi and Dooku got a lucky hit in on him. I see no reason why Mace couldn't have gotten the same lucky hit in on him.

Rampant ox
Originally posted by darthsith19
Okay then, zam, why did Dooku run if he wasn't losing or going to lose? Name one other reason.

Could it be because Dooku knew there was a chance Mace could beat him, therefore didnt want to risk it. I dont think anyone is arguing against the fact that there was every chance Mace could have beaten Dooku, or vice versa (due to their extremely close power levels). But the key word is chance. Chance does not equate to 'Dooku flees therefore he was definatly going to lose'. That sort of thinking is foolish at best. The way I see it, Dooku didnt want to stick around and risk his own life when he realised how powerful Mace was. Not because he was going to lose, but because he knew how much he had to lose.

darthsith19
He didn't want to risk it? After being so enthused about getting to kill Jedi, he flees just because there's a chance that he might lose? No, there's a chance that he'd lose, however small, in any battle, if he was so scared of a chance then why would he, enthusiastically, want to fight Jedi in the first place?

What did he have to lose? No more to lose than Mace did, and Mace didn't run. If Dooku had felt like he wasn't going to win, he could have even called the Magnadroids in to fight Mace and then attacked Mace with the Force while the Magnaguards distracted him, but nope, he aparently didn't even think he was capable of doing that. Even though, supposedly, he is ahead of Mace with the Force.

exanda kane
Originally posted by darthsith19
It wasn't worth the effort to kill Mace when he could have? Right, and why would it not be worth the effort? Kenobi and Anakin were not coming, they were busy fighting Asajj and trying to get her to turn back to the lightside. And I sure would like to see proof why Dooku could take Mace out. The Dooku supporters have yet to post any of that stuff, y'know.

I never said he could kill Mace did I? And I didn't remotedly say it would be an easy win; your simply throwing my valid point into the Mace vs. Dooku argument, which I said I was not part of.

The Obsession source you used simply is not precise enough to be used in Mace or Dooku's favour.

Rampant ox
Originally posted by darthsith19
He didn't want to risk it? After being so enthused about getting to kill Jedi, he flees just because there's a chance that he might lose? No, there's a chance that he'd lose, however small, in any battle, if he was so scared of a chance then why would he, enthusiastically, want to fight Jedi in the first place?

He was so 'enthused' about fighting Mace himself because he is arrogant. You know that as well as I do. However, after engaging the Jedi Master he realised that victory would be more difficult than previously thought and decided to flee. After all sith are cowards, and Dooku (more so than most) values his own life above all else.



Mace didnt run because by killing Dooku the CIS would face a huge setback. Mace knew how important Dooku was in the CIS hierachy, therefore by killing him it would be a huge plus in the Republic war effort. What would Dooku gain by killing Mace? The pleasure of knowing he killed one of the greatest Masters of all time? Thats a far more personal reason than Mace's, and Dooku is smart enough to know not to risk himself for that.

I just dont see how Dooku fleeing automatically equates to Dooku losing. I mean, we dont know what was going through their heads at the time, so alot of this is all speculation.

kiddo44
It doesn't at all, that fight in Obsession means very little in regard to who is better.

excatly right, nobody questions, it would be a close fight.

A Dose Of Vraya
Originally posted by Rampant ox
He was so 'enthused' about fighting Mace himself because he is arrogant. You know that as well as I do. However, after engaging the Jedi Master he realised that victory would be more difficult than previously thought and decided to flee. After all sith are cowards, and Dooku (more so than most) values his own life above all else.



Mace didnt run because by killing Dooku the CIS would face a huge setback. Mace knew how important Dooku was in the CIS hierachy, therefore by killing him it would be a huge plus in the Republic war effort. What would Dooku gain by killing Mace? The pleasure of knowing he killed one of the greatest Masters of all time? Thats a far more personal reason than Mace's, and Dooku is smart enough to know not to risk himself for that.

I just dont see how Dooku fleeing automatically equates to Dooku losing. I mean, we dont know what was going through their heads at the time, so alot of this is all speculation. And taking out one of the generals of the republic (MR. JACKSON) would also be a major setback for the republic, remember that each jedi was assigned clone bodyguards, all of those bodyguards must have been killed before Mace was and Mace had a pretty darn big squad, plus of course there is the satisfaction

exanda kane
Originally posted by A Dose Of Vraya
And taking out one of the generals of the republic (MR. JACKSON) would also be a major setback for the republic, remember that each jedi was assigned clone bodyguards, all of those bodyguards must have been killed before Mace was and Mace had a pretty darn big squad, plus of course there is the satisfaction

No Clones, just Mace, who leapt over to Dooku as he prepared to depart. Two Magnaguards stood near by but did not participate in the fight until Dooku forced Mace over the egde of the cliffs with them.

Dooku was certainly in no time for a drawn out duel with Mace, irrelevant of who the victor would have been, so much so that he allowed Ventress to be left behind and sacrificed. Only Grievous was taken under the pretence that he cost too much to lose. It simply isn't a useful source.

Darth Subjekt
I was just wondering if someone could debate without bias...either for or against?

Dooku beat Mace before, however Mace had created Vaapad since then and we all know that helps against the darksiders. Now, does that guarantee victory? Absolutely not. His shatterpoint ability (which is completely independent from Vaapad) would be more of a tactical advantage. In that time span, Dooku's own power had increased considerably, what with more experience as a Jedi and then his Sith training and experience.

Dooku is hailed as one of the most skilled lightsaber duelists, and despite what DS19 thinks, his mastering of his form to the highest degree, set him leagues above most saber duelists, possibly to include Mace. If you read up on character's in almost every bio they're one of the best at something, or extremely gifted with this, that or the other, so comparing skill is hard to do on that front.

Vaapad is a strong form, but its not said to be as powerful as Djem So, and we cant say Mace is stronger or as strong as Anakin, so we also cant say that Dooku will automatically be at a technical disadvantage.

Now don't get it twisted, I like Mace alot more than Dooku; in fact, I hate Dooku. But here I think Dooku can pull out a win, but in no way will it be an easy victory.

kiddo44
Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
I was just wondering if someone could debate without bias...either for or against?

Dooku beat Mace before, however Mace had created Vaapad since then and we all know that helps against the darksiders. Now, does that guarantee victory? Absolutely not. His shatterpoint ability (which is completely independent from Vaapad) would be more of a tactical advantage. In that time span, Dooku's own power had increased considerably, what with more experience as a Jedi and then his Sith training and experience.

Dooku is hailed as one of the most skilled lightsaber duelists, and despite what DS19 thinks, his mastering of his form to the highest degree, set him leagues above most saber duelists, possibly to include Mace. If you read up on character's in almost every bio they're one of the best at something, or extremely gifted with this, that or the other, so comparing skill is hard to do on that front.

Vaapad is a strong form, but its not said to be as powerful as Djem So, and we cant say Mace is stronger or as strong as Anakin, so we also cant say that Dooku will automatically be at a technical disadvantage.

Now don't get it twisted, I like Mace alot more than Dooku; in fact, I hate Dooku. But here I think Dooku can pull out a win, but in no way will it be an easy victory.

yes, the vaapad is not going to put him over somebody like Dooku especially since,Dooku uses the best form for dueling, form II, it would be close, but Dooku overall is better.

A Dose Of Vraya
I think that Mace dipped his toes in the darkside (ie. force crush) after the first battle of the clone wars, therefore with that and a lack of experience with fighting with the sith, he would be overwhelmed by Dooku.

RocasAtoll
Originally posted by A Dose Of Vraya
I think that Mace dipped his toes in the darkside (ie. force crush) after the first battle of the clone wars, therefore with that and a lack of experience with fighting with the sith, he would be overwhelmed by Dooku.

force choke is not automatically evil. Stay clear of using KOTOR or any other game to define if a power is dark side or not.

jollyjim311
A few things: Dooku was not a big part of the CIS at that point. Well, obviously he was, but, he was saying all throughout their brief exchange how he didn't matter.

I believe Vaapad has been stated to be more "open and kinetic than Form V."
Mace can draw off of whatever power Dooku uses, and use it as his own, along with his own powers (Including Shatterpoint), while using a form that has the power to take on Makashi head on. I believe Mace would win in a saber battle, and even an all out battle, even as of AOTC.

darthsith19
Originally posted by A Dose Of Vraya
I think that Mace dipped his toes in the darkside (ie. force crush) after the first battle of the clone wars, therefore with that and a lack of experience with fighting with the sith, he would be overwhelmed by Dooku.
Mace has fought Dark Acolytes, though, plus he wasn't any more experienced fighting Sith in ROTS and he bested Sidious in saber combat.

Darth Subjekt
Originally posted by jollyjim311
A few things: Dooku was not a big part of the CIS at that point. Well, obviously he was, but, he was saying all throughout their brief exchange how he didn't matter.

I believe Vaapad has been stated to be more "open and kinetic than Form V."
Mace can draw off of whatever power Dooku uses, and use it as his own, along with his own powers (Including Shatterpoint), while using a form that has the power to take on Makashi head on. I believe Mace would win in a saber battle, and even an all out battle, even as of AOTC.

mmm, I'd like to see that quote if you could find it please. Not that it really surprises me, I'd just like to know where that was stated.

I think a bid misconception that people are having is the actual affect that Vaapad has. It doesn't take Dooku's (or any Sith's) power and push it back on them (i.e. lightning doesn't go back to the user just because), it cycles through him and gives him a power boost more or less, and lets him enjoy the battle, therefore not binding him by the light side restrictions like crush and choke. He can use these things without being tempted by the darkside. Another plus for him, is that thru Vaapad, he rarely gets tired as the energy constantly flows in and than right back out of him onto his opponent.

Again, while I'm not knocking Mace at all, I just think that Dooku has the skills to win the majority of the time. Maybe 6/10.

vader11
Can AOTC Mace beat ROTS Dooku?

Burnt Pancakes
Possibly. Same vice-versa. The two never reall heightened in skill THAT much in the time span between movies.

jollyjim311
Mace did more-so. He fully mastered Vaapad and lost all his fear during the events of Shatterpoint (ROTS Novel).

vader11
I think ROTS Dooku would beat AOTC Mace after a very hard fight, but I am not sure who would win if they are both the AOTC versions.

Gideon
I must say that I find that assessment preposterous, Darth Subjekt. You have a misconception about the nature of Vaapad as well, it seems, so let me enlighten you on the subject, Subjekt (pun intended, 'cause I'm a dork):

Vaapad does skirt on the edge of the dark side, but more importantly, it allows the user (Mace) to mitigate - or sometimes negate entirely - the advantage that a dark Force user may or may not possess. In Mace vs. Sidious, Darth Sidious's advantage was his speed. The novelization goes into detail about how Vaapad allowed Mace to compensate for Sidious's blinding speed, allowing them to fight on even terrain. The movie depicts this when Sidious kills Mace's companions and then forces him - a naturally offensive fighter - on the defensive. When he is "fully immersed" in Vaapad, it allows Mace to match him, and Sidious's advantage is gone.

The second technique that enabled him to win was Shatterpoint: it allowed Mace to detect weaknesses in Palpatine's technique and the duel itself, giving him the opportunity to exploit it and overpower him. Then, when Sidious uses the Force against Vaapad, the third stage occurs and it allows Mace to channel - but not control - Palpatine's Force energy, redirecting it back upon it's source. The only obvious reason why Mace had such a hell of a time is because Palpatine is such a powerful Force user.

In this case, Dooku is susceptible to the same exploitation that Palpatine was. Vaapad will allow Mace to compensate for any advantage Dooku may or may not have in technique, and they will fight on even terms. Then Mace will bring Shatterpoint to bear against Dooku, allowing him to detect the flaws in the duel and Dooku's fighting technique, and he will exploit it. If it comes down to Dooku using the Force against Mace, it will likely come down to the same thing that it did with Sidious, the difference being: Dooku is not as powerful as Sidious is in the Force.

I used to think that Sidious would have won if he used the Force against Mace sooner - but upon analyzing the situation again - the truth is that he might not. There is no dispute that Palpatine is more powerful than Mace, but that's the trick with Vaapad: it allows Mace to negate the advantages of Sith and Dark Jedi. And then they'd be dealing with Shatterpoint, which is the true reason why Mace won the fight.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: Mace might very well be the most effective warrior against Sith Lords and Dark Jedi - Luke included. In my opinion, the disparity in power between Mace and his dark side opponent would have to be enormous, and that might not even be enough.

The only other alternative to win against Mace in this case would be the beginning of the fight; Darth Sidious was able to kill Mace's companions and put Mace on the defensive for half of the fight before Mace was immersed in Vaapad. That is pretty much the only time a Sith Lord or a Dark Jedi could kill Mace, unless you're an uberpowerful Sith Lord .

If the fight is prolonged, Mace will win. There is no doubt. Dooku's only shot in hell is ending the fight quick.

RocasAtoll
But it seems from the quotes you are giving that Vaapad allowed Mace to counter Palpatine just because of its ferocity, not some mystical effect the form has on dark side user, which, IMO, sounds more along the lines of D&D.

(Please correct me if I'm wrong. It's just from the way you presented the evidence).

Gideon
I don't know how you came to that conclusion from my argument, but that's not it: Mace's Vaapad overcame Palpatine because its nature allows it to mitigate any advantage that a Sith Lord or Dark Jedi might have (it should be noted that Vaapad's nature is specifically geared for battling Dark Jedi, so if Mace were to fight Yoda, it wouldn't work), allowing Mace to fight him or her on even terms. In this case, Sidious's speed was his advantage and it allowed him to kill Mace's companions and put Mace on the defensive for half of the duel. However, when Mace submerged himself in Vaapad, it allowed him to fight Palpatine on an even nature essentially by replicating the same feat. Mace then detected Palpatine's Shatterpoint, allowing him to exploit the weaknesses in Sidious's technique and in the fight itself, leading to Sidious being disarmed and the fight over.

Ferocity plays a part in it, but it is actually the result. The mystical nature of Vaapad allows Mace to mitigate the advantage of his opponents, letting them fight on an even term. In Mace vs. Sidious, it is ferocity, because it allowed Mace to match Sidious's speed. Dooku would fall susceptible to the same thing.

RocasAtoll
Originally posted by Gideon
I don't know how you came to that conclusion from my argument, but that's not it: Mace's Vaapad overcame Palpatine because its nature allows it to mitigate any advantage that a Sith Lord or Dark Jedi might have (it should be noted that Vaapad's nature is specifically geared for battling Dark Jedi, so if Mace were to fight Yoda, it wouldn't work), allowing Mace to fight him or her on even terms. In this case, Sidious's speed was his advantage and it allowed him to kill Mace's companions and put Mace on the defensive for half of the duel. However, when Mace submerged himself in Vaapad, it allowed him to fight Palpatine on an even nature essentially by replicating the same feat. Mace then detected Palpatine's Shatterpoint, allowing him to exploit the weaknesses in Sidious's technique and in the fight itself, leading to Sidious being disarmed and the fight over.

Ferocity plays a part in it, but it is actually the result. The mystical nature of Vaapad allows Mace to mitigate the advantage of his opponents, letting them fight on an even term. In Mace vs. Sidious, it is ferocity, because it allowed Mace to match Sidious's speed. Dooku would fall susceptible to the same thing.

But still, wouldn't that be just because Mace pushed him back with superior strength and the right amount of speed to negate Sidious's advantage, instead of some mystic effect of Vaapad? Pushing a naturally offensive fighter on the defense is always the target of the other duelist; what makes Mace so special that he understood the simple concept; see weakness, exploit weakness?

Gideon
You misunderstand; the mystical effect of Vaapad is what allowed Mace to match Sidious's speed in the first place. Without it, Mace would have still been on the defensive and he would have lost.



I understand, but being actually capable of doing so meant superiority, which makes sense: Sidious went into that fight with a singular advantage over Mace; he was faster. That is what allowed him to the kill the other three and push Mace back into the public office.



Shatterpoints are weaknesses in people, objects, and even concepts. Essentially, it allows Mace to detect the weaknesses in a Corusca gem - the equivilent to diamond - and by simply finding its shatterpoint, he can tap the proper spot, allowing it to shatter. Essentially, he sees weaknesses that are near-impossible to detect.

RocasAtoll
Originally posted by Gideon
You misunderstand; the mystical effect of Vaapad is what allowed Mace to match Sidious's speed in the first place. Without it, Mace would have still been on the defensive and he would have lost.



I understand, but being actually capable of doing so meant superiority, which makes sense: Sidious went into that fight with a singular advantage over Mace; he was faster. That is what allowed him to the kill the other three and push Mace back into the public office.



Shatterpoints are weaknesses in people, objects, and even concepts. Essentially, it allows Mace to detect the weaknesses in a Corusca gem - the equivilent to diamond - and by simply finding its shatterpoint, he can tap the proper spot, allowing it to shatter. Essentially, he sees weaknesses that are near-impossible to detect.

Okay then. It was just from the way you described the quote it never actually pinpointed Vaapad as the reason why he overcame Sidious.

Gideon
Originally posted by RocasAtoll
Okay then. It was just from the way you described the quote it never actually pinpointed Vaapad as the reason why he overcame Sidious.

My apologies if I did. But I hope we've cleared it up. Be back later.

Darth Subjekt
I thought you've provided, many times, sources that state Yoda is without a doubt the best weapon against the darkside, now its Mace? Hmmm. Also, all I was saying, was Vaapad in and of itself does NOT guarantee victory, and it doesn't, as I believe Dooku as beaten Vaapad user(s) before. Furthermore, that Vaapad is separate from shatterpoint, which I believe to be a huge asset, being as its effective for people, and situations.

I think Dooku is more technically sound with a saber, and I stand by that completely. You're making it sound like its impossible for any darksider to defeat Mace...I don't see how thats possible. So I don't see how my assessment is preposterous. But then, its also my assessment, so why would I, right? stick out tongue

Gideon
I

No, I said that Yoda was "the most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness has ever known" as stated by the omniscient narrator in the RotS novelization, and it is true. Mace is not as powerful as Yoda, and therefore isn't "the most powerful foe" of the darkness. But is he arguably the most effective? Yes.



No. The last time Dooku beat Mace was when they were both still Jedi (I've reiterated it that Vaapad is most effective against dark siders, if you paid attention at all). Furthermore, I never said that Shatterpoint and Vaapad are the same (again, if you paid attention you'd know that), but they both give Mace a huge advantage over Dooku.



And, sadly, you'd be wrong.



This will be the third time you've demonstrated that you haven't paid any attention to my argument; next time, read carefully. I never said that it was impossible for a dark sider to defeat Mace. I said two things:

a.) You'd need to be an uberpowerful Sith Lord or Dark Jedi to do it or.

b.) You'd need to defeat him immediately. If the duel is prolonged, Mace will win.



If you paid more attention, read more carefully, and actually provided some proof - as well as explaining how Mace overcame a more powerful Sith Lord than Dooku and yet he'd lose to Dooku.

vader11
I agree that Mace would win if the duel is prolonged. Mace would probably find his weakness and Dooku would be tired.

Darth Subjekt
Originally posted by Gideon
I

No, I said that Yoda was "the most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness has ever known" as stated by the omniscient narrator in the RotS novelization, and it is true. Mace is not as powerful as Yoda, and therefore isn't "the most powerful foe" of the darkness. But is he arguably the most effective? Yes.



No. The last time Dooku beat Mace was when they were both still Jedi (I've reiterated it that Vaapad is most effective against dark siders, if you paid attention at all). Furthermore, I never said that Shatterpoint and Vaapad are the same (again, if you paid attention you'd know that), but they both give Mace a huge advantage over Dooku.



And, sadly, you'd be wrong.



This will be the third time you've demonstrated that you haven't paid any attention to my argument; next time, read carefully. I never said that it was impossible for a dark sider to defeat Mace. I said two things:

a.) You'd need to be an uberpowerful Sith Lord or Dark Jedi to do it or.

b.) You'd need to defeat him immediately. If the duel is prolonged, Mace will win.



If you paid more attention, read more carefully, and actually provided some proof - as well as explaining how Mace overcame a more powerful Sith Lord than Dooku and yet he'd lose to Dooku.

First off, you don't need to try to talk down to me like you do Legend or Neb here.
Secondly, that statement would be worthless to even state if meant to be as literal as you're now stating. What difference would it be how powerful Yoda is if it were all for not in comparison to Mace? Also, if you would have paid attention, you will notice I never said that you said that Vaapad and shatterpoint were the same thing. I said, for people who may have had a misconception about it, that they are two separate abilities, both of which give Mace an advantage in a fight.
Also, you didn't comment on Dooku beating another Vaapad user.
And you think that Dooku mastering Makashi to the absolute highest degree still comes up short to Mace creating Vaapad? As far as just saber work (taking out the ability to redirect darkside powers) you think that Mace is a better technical saber duelist than Dooku?
Again, I didn't say you said it was impossible for Mace to lose; I said thats the way you're making it sound; also as if Dooku doesn't have what it take to finish him early.
Also, you're last point sounds like you're basing it on a possible ABC argument, which you of all people should know, doesn't always work.

But whatever's clever...like i said before, I don't even like Dooku...

Gideon
Then do two things: a.) start paying closer attention and b.) start supporting your assertions. All you've done is attempted to compromise my points instead of offering any of your own or trying to dodge them. That's not how you prove your argument.



This is one of those moments where you need to pay more attention. The quote isn't worthless. The novelization calls Yoda "the most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known." Emphasis on 'powerful'. Mace is not as powerful as either Yoda or Sidious; I haven't stated nor implied that he is. In his fight with Sidious, he beat him because his form enabled him to do so thanks to mystical properties. In Yoda's case, since Yoda is a Light Sider, the properties have no effect on him.



Precisely: two advantages Dooku has no defense against.



You're comparing Sora Bulq to Mace Windu. One of them created and mastered the form. The other attempted to master the form and failed to do so. Windu himself coments that "Vaapad mastered him", not the other way around.



Which one of them impresses me more? Windu, easily. One of them created the undisputed deadliest lightsaber form, according to Yoda, at an incredibly young age. The other required decades to master a classic form . Both are impressive and both of them are among the finest swordsmen ever, but Windu is undoubtably more impressive.

It's similar to comparing Jimi Hendrix to Randy Rhoads. Both of them mastered the guitar and were world-class guitarists, but one of them achieved international recognition for making innovations and new methods of playing. That's why Hendrix is - and will forever be - a household name whilst Rhoads isn't.



If by 'technical' you mean accurate and precise, no. Dooku's form is based on efficiency, precision, and accuracy moreso than any other form. Mace might rival him in that category if only for his ability to detect shatterpoints, but as far as forms themselves go? No.

But if you're referring to power and speed, yes, Mace's form is better.



Do I see Dooku taking him out early? Hell no. Dooku's form is based on precision and accuracy, most of his duels are long and drawn out. Mace is based on power and speed, usually indicating quick fights. Sidious - whose form is similar - couldn't overcome Windu, merely kept him on the defensive.



This isn't an ABC argument. Because the skills and techniques Mace used to overcome Sidious apply here with Dooku, and there is absolutely no indication that Dooku will have any better luck. It wasn't based on circumstance or 'luck-of-the-draw' that Windu beat Sidious, it was based on the properties of Windu's form that apply to all fights with dark siders.

Windu will win a lightsaber fight.

Darth Subjekt
Yea, you have some points there, and its not like i was directly trying to compromise your points, just rather trying to give the Count his due.

God damn SLJ and his special requests for Lucas! lol, j/k...

Gideon
Dooku does have his due. It's not like he's miles beneath Windu, but rather that Mace is simply the more powerful swordsman. And, certainly, Count Dooku is the stronger Force user. But in Windu's case, superior Force strength (for a Sith or Dark Jedi) doesn't equate to victory.

Darth Subjekt
OK, I'm with you. I just didn't look at things from that 'certain point of view' (cheesy i know).

Anyway, you know I wasn't trying to be a dick to you or anything, right? Cause I wasn't...just a bad day is all...

kiddo44
Originally posted by vader11
I think ROTS Dooku would beat AOTC Mace after a very hard fight, but I am not sure who would win if they are both the AOTC versions.

AOTC Mace would lose. ROTS Mace against ROTS Dooku would be a different fight. The events of Shatterpoint changed that. Dooku was still stronger in the force at that point, and that would most likely end up being the difference. AOTC, versions, Dooku would take it.

Arhael
50/50 on all three.

Batman-Prime
Dooku after a hard fight.

Rookwood
Originally posted by reborn_213
About even, probably. However, after the events of Shatterpoint and when Mace has no fear left, then he can beat any version of Dooku.

I'm calling this one a draw, though.

This.

Rogue Gladiator
Unless if you submit to the theory that Palpatine threw the fight, it is obvious that Mace Windu would hand Tyranus his ass by Revenge of the Sith, or any sith lord in Star Wars except for more powerful incarnations of Palpatine. I mean, how is even a debate? Windu uses Vaapad and its superconducting loop, he has shatterpoint, which allowed him to defeat Dooku's master. The person that scared the shit out of Tyranus.

Now the question here is more interesting, because AotC Windu weaker than his RotS incarnation. Presumably, because he would have had three years to improve. Exactly how relevant is three years to someone, iirc, in his fifties? I guess that the combat experience of the war would advance Windu far faster than sparring with Jedi. Whereas Dooku, being in his 80's, is almost certainly beyond improvement and is probably weaker, or at best the same, by RotS.

The answer: You can't possibly know. We never see AotC Windu fight anyone except for a bunch of battle droids and Jango Fett.

(unless if you take the "on equal ground" w/Dooku quote as factoring Vaapad/shatterpoint, implying that Mace = Dooku by Dark Rendevous, and weaker by AotC. Which would mean that Windu improved suddenly and dramatically by RotS, enough to go to > Sidious)

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Rogue Gladiator
Unless if you submit to the theory that Palpatine threw the fight, it is obvious that Mace Windu would hand Tyranus his ass by Revenge of the Sith, or any sith lord in Star Wars except for more powerful incarnations of Palpatine. I mean, how is even a debate? Windu uses Vaapad and its superconducting loop, he has shatterpoint, which allowed him to defeat Dooku's master. The person that scared the shit out of Tyranus.


Not saying you're necessarily wrong. But your logic here would only work if we had a quote stating Sidious to be the best Lightsaber duelist of all previous Sith Lords. Or if we had concrete proof that Sidious was a superior lightsaber duelist to Count Dooku.

Being more powerful is completely different. End of the day Sidious was more powerful than Mace (in the force) but still got beaten by him in lightsaber combat.



Originally posted by Rogue Gladiator
Now the question here is more interesting, because AotC Windu weaker than his RotS incarnation. Presumably, because he would have had three years to improve. Exactly how relevant is three years to someone, iirc, in his fifties? I guess that the combat experience of the war would advance Windu far faster than sparring with Jedi. Whereas Dooku, being in his 80's, is almost certainly beyond improvement and is probably weaker, or at best the same, by RotS.

The answer: You can't possibly know. We never see AotC Windu fight anyone except for a bunch of battle droids and Jango Fett.

We do know Mace definetely improved after the events of Shatterpoint (after AOTC).

Originally posted by Rogue Gladiator
(unless if you take the "on equal ground" w/Dooku quote as factoring Vaapad/shatterpoint, implying that Mace = Dooku by Dark Rendevous, and weaker by AotC. Which would mean that Windu improved suddenly and dramatically by RotS, enough to go to > Sidious)

I personally think we have good reason to question this quote now. Considering we know from Clone Wars animation that Anakin was also at least Dooku's equal in Lightsaber combat by this point. Whilst the quote from DR says "From all the other Jedi perhaps ONLY Mace Windu.."

Zett
Originally posted by Rogue Gladiator
Unless if you submit to the theory that Palpatine threw the fight, it is obvious that Mace Windu would hand Tyranus his ass by Revenge of the Sith, or any sith lord in Star Wars except for more powerful incarnations of Palpatine. I mean, how is even a debate? Windu uses Vaapad and its superconducting loop, he has shatterpoint, which allowed him to defeat Dooku's master. The person that scared the shit out of Tyranus.

Strange and stupid logic. Windu doesn't has an advantage against all of the Sith Lords (on his level, i mean). Windu can defeat Sidious only because of their lightsabers forms. Sidious uses Juyo (most of Sith Lords use it, so probably its the reason why people thinks that Mace > darksiders. Palpatine uses Juyo, Maul uses Juyo, Anakin uses Djem So + elements of Juyo.
Dooku is different. He is former master, and in lightsaber fight he still fight more like jedi master. His Makashi is perfect to lightsaber duels. He defeat Mace in the past, he EASILY defeat Sora Bulq (who gives Mace a nice fight). So there is no problems for Makashi user to fight Vaapad user.
And Dooku is still more skilled in the force. Yeah, Mace has a shatter point (but even with that he lost to Dooku in the past), but Dooku is much better in TK, force choke etc.
And after Haruun Kal, they are described as equals in terms of lightsaber skills. So before Dooku perhaps is better.

Rogue Gladiator

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Rogue Gladiator

How do you know this? When has Dooku ever demonstrated particularly impressive TK? His best Force feat is choking RotS Obi Wan. Impressive, but hardly comparable to redirecting lightning, point blank, from the most powerful DLOTS in galactic history.

Well he redirected it with his lightsaber, while seriously struggling and screaming in the process.

Considering AOTC ObiWan was able to absorb Force Lightning with ease, from a far superior Force user, using his Lightsaber, it's not really that amazing that Mace could absorb and redirect it with great difficulty against an unarmed Sith Lord lying on his ass. With Mace standing right over him with his blade to his throat mind you.

As for impressive TK:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfIEdlba5ZQ

That's at least a dozen large stone pillars Dooku is lifting with ease.

Mace has great raw power in the force, but I very much doubt he could take out Obi-Wan with the same level of ease that Dooku did.



Originally posted by Rogue Gladiator
In terms of lightsaber skills when Force capabilities are factored in, Palpatine > Windu. Yet Windu still won, because of the inherent advantage of Vaapad over darksiders, an advantage that, contrary to your opinion, has jack shit to do with what lightsaber form the sith uses.

I don't know. A lot of people are questioning this supposed advantage Vapaad has over dark siders. But is there actually any canon statement which says "Vapaad is more effective against Dark siders"??

People have come to this conclusion from the description of the Mace vs Sidious fight in the ROTS novel. And yet in that fight what advantage did Vapaad give Mace over Sidious? Because IIRC they were equal in their Lightsaber duel with Vapaad aiding Mace.

Mace went on to win after searching for Sidious's shatterpoint.

Rogue Gladiator
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Well he redirected it with his lightsaber, while seriously struggling and screaming in the process.

Considering AOTC ObiWan was able to absorb Force Lightning with ease, from a far superior Force user, using his Lightsaber, it's not really that amazing that Mace could absorb and redirect it with great difficulty against an unarmed Sith Lord lying on his ass. With Mace standing right over him with his blade to his throat mind you.



Dooku's lightning is not really comparable to Sidious's. Like, at all. Sidious's Force lightning killed fifty clone troopers at once. Sidious's lightning was noticeably more difficult for Yoda to stop than Dooku's. Stopping it, even with a lightsaber, is certainly at least as impressive as Force choking a surprised Obi Wan.



In addition to the questionable use of TCW for detailed analysis (can I use the clip to make the argument that Dooku's facial structure and voice magically changed in between AotC and RotS?), we have no idea how heavy those pillars were. Yet in TCW, Mace Windu is able to push an AT-TE off a cliff in the Battle of Ryloth, and land six blows on Kar Vastor before he could blink.



A cited source on Wookieepedia mentions that it redirects the dark sider user's anger and hatred in one half of a superconducting loop, the other half being the user himself. Your observation is correct; Windu and Palpatine appeared to be equal with once Windu sunk fully into Vaapad, whereas Mace otherwise would probably have been outmatched. Shatterpoint is what tipped the scales in Mace's favor.

But if I am wrong, then that would simply lead to the conclusion that Mace is outright more powerful than Palpatine, which makes this debate even more one sided. Happy Dance

Zett

Rogue Gladiator
Originally posted by Zett
Smth about Juyo:
Juyo was described as the most vicious form of lightsaber combat, and was said to be filled with both fury and "malignant grace(...)Juyo's use was controversial among the Jedi Order, as many felt that Juyo violated the "there is no emotion, there is peace" tenet of the Jedi Code due to its requirement to fight under the guidance of controlled passion. The Sith had no such inhibition, and Darth Sidious went so far as to label it a "Sith style".

Vaapad:
The practitioner of Vaapad would accept the fury of their opponent, transforming them into one half of a superconducting loop, with the other half being the power of darkness inherent in the opponent.



"He accepted the furious speed of the Sith Lord, drew the shadow's rage and power into his inmost center - And let it fountain out again.
He reflected the fury upon its source as a lightsaber redirects a blaster bolt." - Stover, ROTS

And now your logic; for example:
When Anakin fight Dooku (ROTS duel) he uses hif fury and anger. But he was still jedi, so Vaapad won't be work? And few days later Vaapad will work, coz he fell into dark side?

Anakin during the duel with Dooku appeared to be using the dark side. If he was, then yes, it would work. If not, then no, it wouldn't. Anakin was technically still a Jedi, but obviously, being or not being part of a group does not directly, magically change the actual effectiveness of the technique. Vaapad works against people using the dark side, whether you call them "Jedi using the dark side for one fight" or "evil bastard sith".



Wait...what?

Are you arguing that Dooku doesn't use negative feelings in a fight? That he doesn't harness his rage and anger after becoming Darth Tyranus? That he's secretly a good guy who rejects the sith ways?

...



How does this prove anything? He was a "skilled master", so was Obi Wan (and Coleman Trebor). He lectured on the subject; Cindralic lectured on lightsaber combat; he was the blademaster, and Vader fought him one handed while choking a padawan.



Windu was not a student anymore in any sense, and IIRC this is referring to the TPM timeframe.



Mace is a humble guy. Dooku is the exact opposite. But none of your quotes, honestly, make a case for putting Dooku above Windu. They simply vaguely define him as "skilled" and "our greatest student".

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Rogue Gladiator
Dooku's lightning is not really comparable to Sidious's. Like, at all. Sidious's Force lightning killed fifty clone troopers at once. Sidious's lightning was noticeably more difficult for Yoda to stop than Dooku's. Stopping it, even with a lightsaber, is certainly at least as impressive as Force choking a surprised Obi Wan.


Ok I do realise Sidious is more powerful than Dooku. As is his Force Lightning. But I think you may be exaggerating the difference.

Dooku's Lightning is "weaker" but I would not go as far as saying it is completely weak in comparison. Dooku's FL took out 3 armed nightsisters! 3 of them all armed! Oh and one of them was frigging Ventress! Thats not weak by anyone's standards.

Oh and of course Yoda deflected Dooku's Lightning more easily than Sidious's because we know Sidious's is simply more powerful. However Yoda was able to deflect both, and according to the AOTC novel, he was deflecting Dooku's Lightning "Far from easily"

So again when AOTC Obi-Wan (who is not even a match for Kit Fisto at this point) can easily catch Dooku's Force Lightning with his Saber, then what on Earth makes you think Count Dooku could not do the same with his Saber against Sidious's Lightning (while shouting and screaming mind you).

Because I promise you the difference in Force powers between Dooku and AOTC Obi-Wan is much much greater than the difference in Force powers between Sidious and Dooku. So that's just a completely unfounded conclusion.

And no I don't see any evidence Mace could take out ROTS Obi-Wan anywhere near as easily with the Force as Count Dooku did. Let alone 3 nightsisters including Ventress.

In fact Mace faced Ventress in Schism, and even though he was of course completely overpowering her, she managed to escape easily. If he could simply grab her with the force I'm sure he would have.

Oh yeah Dooku also took out Sora Bulq with the Force easily. Again Mace faced Sora Bulq, and was not able to stop him anywhere near as easily.

Plus there's a quote in Dark Rendezvous saying from everyone in the Jedi Temple Dooku was "Most learned in the ways of the Force."

So all evidence suggests that despite Mace's clear and obvious raw power in the force, his skill at using it does not match Count Dooku's.

Edit- Oh and Lol at Obi-Wan being surprised! He was surprised alrite, by how much more powerful Dooku was in the Force than him!


Originally posted by Rogue Gladiator
In addition to the questionable use of TCW for detailed analysis (can I use the clip to make the argument that Dooku's facial structure and voice magically changed in between AotC and RotS?), we have no idea how heavy those pillars were. Yet in TCW, Mace Windu is able to push an AT-TE off a cliff in the Battle of Ryloth, and land six blows on Kar Vastor before he could blink.

LOL What are you talking about?? CW Animation is T-Canon. That means more canon than anything except the films themselves. Its created and executive produced by Lucas himself.

Anyway pushing an AT-TE <<<< Lifting a dozen+ Stone pillars with ease (and keeping them levitated with ease).



Originally posted by Rogue Gladiator
A cited source on Wookieepedia mentions that it redirects the dark sider user's anger and hatred in one half of a superconducting loop, the other half being the user himself. Your observation is correct; Windu and Palpatine appeared to be equal with once Windu sunk fully into Vaapad, whereas Mace otherwise would probably have been outmatched. Shatterpoint is what tipped the scales in Mace's favor.

But if I am wrong, then that would simply lead to the conclusion that Mace is outright more powerful than Palpatine, which makes this debate even more one sided. Happy Dance

Again looking for a canon source that says Vapaad specifically gives an advantage over dark siders, or nullifies the dark siders abilitys/advantages. The superconducting loop sounds metaphorical. A state of mind perhaps.

Theres also an extract of Obi-Wans last fight with Maul saying Maul was feeding of Obi-Wan's anger. But are we really supposed to believe that Maul can drain the power of anyone using the darkside, or giving in to their anger?? Of course not. It's obviously metaphorical.

Anyway I also believe Mace and Sidious were equal in Sabers but Shatterpoint and/or Mace's experience gave him the edge.

But don't get too excited. Mace having the edge over Sidious in Saber combat does not make him "more powerful."

The Emporer is clearly more powerful in the force.

DARTH POWER
Not that I agree with everything Zett is saying but just to address a couple of points you made to him:

Originally posted by Rogue Gladiator


Are you arguing that Dooku doesn't use negative feelings in a fight? That he doesn't harness his rage and anger after becoming Darth Tyranus? That he's secretly a good guy who rejects the sith ways?


He means his fencing form isn't one to really strike out with anger and fury. Makashi is a very elegant form.




Originally posted by Rogue Gladiator
Windu was not a student anymore in any sense, and IIRC this is referring to the TPM timeframe.

Lol and Dooku was a student? He's older than Mace. The quote is from Dark Rendezvous. And talking about the greatest student of the temple but at the time of DR. Dooku is more skilled and knowledgeable in the Force than Mace. Period. But I admit Mace's Raw Power in the Force is probably on Par with Dooku's. And would probably overpower the Good Count (eventually) in Saber Combat as well.

Rogue Gladiator
I'll respond to the rest of your post later, but...



...eh? confused

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Rogue Gladiator
I'll respond to the rest of your post later, but...

Don't worry pal. Respond in your own time.



Originally posted by Rogue Gladiator
...eh? confused

Well yeah that's kind of common sense to me.

Would it be easier for you to Push 100kg off a cliff, or to lift and keep holding up 100kg?? There's a huge difference in those 2 feats. Huge.

In fact Savage Opress (before his force rage boost) was no match for Dooku in the Force and he pushed off Obi-Wan and Anakin's ship off a cliff with just one hand wink

Arhael
Vaapad believers...
This is what Vaapad is about:
"Vaapad was described as more than a fighting style; it was a state of mind that led through the penumbra of the dark side, requiring the user to enjoy the fight, and relish the satisfaction of winning."
Which means it can be used anytime against whoever you want.

This is why Windu used it.
"Jedi Master Mace Windu, who developed Vaapad along with Weequay Jedi Sora Bulq, stated that Vaapad was an answer for his own weakness, allowing him to channel his own internal darkness into something positive."

Suitable style for his personality.

kiddo44
AOTC Dooku, always takes this.

EmperorSidious2
I'm not sure how Vaapad is going to work here. Mace only successfully used it once, and that was agaisnt Sidious. During that battle Mace had more inner darkness than ever, going up against the most powerful Sith in history. As according to the novel he was put at his most powerful ever. Dooku does not have the rage that Sidious has, not even close. Mace doesn't have the same aggression as he did agaisnt Sidious. Mace won't have much if any to feed on from Dooku.

Vaapad didn't work agaisnt Sora Bulq or Deepa Bilaba so why would it work here when both of them especially Sora had more rage than Dooku.

In th end I say Dooku in all forms. AOTC and ROTS. It's a very close fight though.

Kurk
Vaapad not effective against a calm and collected sith like Dooku

precise Makashi finds an opening in the wild arcs of Vaapad and Dooku takes the kill

quanchi112
Windy, easily.

EmperorSidious2
Originally posted by quanchi112
Windy, easily.

I'm ok with your opinion. Windu could win, but not easily.

quanchi112
Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
I'm ok with your opinion. Windu could win, but not easily. Easily. He's on another level.

EmperorSidious2
Originally posted by quanchi112
Easily. He's on another level.

Based on what. Windu hasn't done anything that puts him on a whole new level than Dooku. Windu had an amp that he would never get against anyone else against Sidious. Also Vaapad has never worked agaisnt any other opponent so I'm not seeing how this is easy.

quanchi112
Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
Based on what. Windu hasn't done anything that puts him on a whole new level than Dooku. Windu had an amp that he would never get against anyone else against Sidious. Also Vaapad has never worked agaisnt any other opponent so I'm not seeing how this is easy. Beat Sidious. Dooku can't. Nuff said.

Kurk
Originally posted by quanchi112
Beat Sidious. Dooku can't. Nuff said. No, "Nuff isn't said". It's clear Windu's Vaapad has a clear advantage over Sidious as it turns his rage against him but this simply wouldn't be the case against Dooku. Not saying Dooku could ever beat Sidious outside of a pure Makashi duel, but Dooku clearly isn't a raging sith and doesn't let his emotions get the best of him hence rendering Vaapad useless.

Rebel95
What do we know about Mace Windu at this point of time? What are his feats? Other than beheading Jango Fett lol

EmperorSidious2
Originally posted by quanchi112
Beat Sidious. Dooku can't. Nuff said.

With an amp that he would never get again. Try again.

Kurk
Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
With an amp that he would never get again. Try again.

quanchi112
Originally posted by Kurk
No, "Nuff isn't said". It's clear Windu's Vaapad has a clear advantage over Sidious as it turns his rage against him but this simply wouldn't be the case against Dooku. Not saying Dooku could ever beat Sidious outside of a pure Makashi duel, but Dooku clearly isn't a raging sith and doesn't let his emotions get the best of him hence rendering Vaapad useless. Dooku uses the dark side and rage as well. Dooku can't beat Sidious but Windu can. Undeniable.

quanchi112
Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
With an amp that he would never get again. Try again. You don't know what amp means. Dooku was bested by Anakin, Vos, and would be crushed by Sidious. Nuff said.

EmperorSidious2
Originally posted by quanchi112
You don't know what amp means. Dooku was bested by Anakin, Vos, and would be crushed by Sidious. Nuff said.

Ad hominem fallacy for the first part. Rest is irrelevant. What is relevant is that Mace received a boost that he will never receive again. It's not like Dooku gives off enough Dark energy to feed on.

quanchi112
Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
Ad hominem fallacy for the first part. Rest is irrelevant. What is relevant is that Mace received a boost that he will never receive again. It's not like Dooku gives off enough Dark energy to feed on. So a Sith guy doesn't fight off emotions and fights like a Jedi ? laughing out loud

Windu wins. Anakin crushed him.

EmperorSidious2
Originally posted by quanchi112
So a Sith guy doesn't fight off emotions and fights like a Jedi ? laughing out loud

Windu wins. Anakin crushed him.

He uses his emotions differently. He doesn't rage or go out of control. He's always calm cool and collected.

Opinion which I'm fine with just not easily. Anakin is not in this thread and is irrelevant.

Trocity
Originally posted by quanchi112
Easily. He's on another level.

I'm just curious, is the Sidious fight the only feat you are going to cite to prove Windu's superiority?

Because going by The Clone Wars tv show (which is canon), Dooku has better feats than Mace.

quanchi112
Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
He uses his emotions differently. He doesn't rage or go out of control. He's always calm cool and collected.

Opinion which I'm fine with just not easily. Anakin is not in this thread and is irrelevant. That doesn't mean he doesn't use his anger. People can express anger in different ways.

It's relevant to Dooku.

EmperorSidious2
Originally posted by quanchi112
That doesn't mean he doesn't use his anger. People can express anger in different ways.

It's relevant to Dooku.

Exactly and his way is calm cool and collected. He doesn't display anger, and Windu won't have much if any to feed off of.

No it's not as that failure has nothing to do with battle.

quanchi112
Originally posted by Trocity
I'm just curious, is the Sidious fight the only feat you are going to cite to prove Windu's superiority?

Because going by The Clone Wars tv show (which is canon), Dooku has better feats than Mace. Took on Talzin one on one. Killed Jango Fett and looked vastly superior than Kenobi in direct comparison to Kenobi.

Better feats my ass. Windu bested his master. No one says Dooku would beat Sidious. Quality over quantity.

Trocity
You could have just said "Yes."

And Dooku wins here.

Rebel95
This is AOTC Mace he hasn't beaten Sidious yet so you can't really use that in your argument...

quanchi112
Originally posted by Rebel95
This is AOTC Mace he hasn't beaten Sidious yet so you can't really use that in your argument... Crushed Jango. Dooku looked scared of Windu tbh in this film. He hid behind his droids.

EmperorSidious2
Originally posted by quanchi112
Crushed Jango. Dooku looked scared of Windu tbh in this film. He hid behind his droids.

Jango and no real feats to put him at Dooku level. Scarred. He smiled at Windu when he showed up. He appeared clam and collected like he always does.

quanchi112
Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
Jango and no real feats to put him at Dooku level. Scarred. He smiled at Windu when he showed up. He appeared clam and collected like he always does. Not scarred but scared. I'm sure you don't know the difference but I try in vain to help you. He smiled due to his forces but once the backup arrived Dooku fled like a coward.

EmperorSidious2
Originally posted by quanchi112
Not scarred but scared. I'm sure you don't know the difference but I try in vain to help you. He smiled due to his forces but once the backup arrived Dooku fled like a coward.

Unlike you I actually take responsibility for my mistakes and admit I didn't proofread that post and messed up. Maybe it is I who should help you to learn. laughing out loud

His forces didn't mean anything. He and Jango at his mercy, and he could have swung his saber over and got Dooku. Dooku was smiling because he wasn't scared.

quanchi112
Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
Unlike you I actually take responsibility for my mistakes and admit I didn't proofread that post and messed up. Maybe it is I who should help you to learn. laughing out loud

His forces didn't mean anything. He and Jango at his mercy, and he could have swung his saber over and got Dooku. Dooku was smiling because he wasn't scared. calm down.

Yes, they did as he fled when he didn't have the numerical advantage.

He was defended and had to get away from the flamethrower. Due to his numbers but once that advantage left so did he.

EmperorSidious2
Originally posted by quanchi112
calm down.

Yes, they did as he fled when he didn't have the numerical advantage.

He was defended and had to get away from the flamethrower. Due to his numbers but once that advantage left so did he.

There wasn't anything stopping Mace from killing both there, because he was to close to Dooku for Dooku to be able to pull his saber out in time IMO.

You do understand Dooku knew about the clones right? He stayed to make sure the war would start and maybe to see a Jedi death and a senator.

quanchi112
Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
There wasn't anything stopping Mace from killing both there, because he was to close to Dooku for Dooku to be able to pull his saber out in time IMO.

You do understand Dooku knew about the clones right? He stayed to make sure the war would start and maybe to see a Jedi death and a senator. Jango's flamethrower. I just said that and you repeat yourself showing you're incapable of countering.

I do know Dooku didn't know that Sheev would betray him. He died. He backed down from Yoda.

smile

EmperorSidious2
Originally posted by quanchi112
Jango's flamethrower. I just said that and you repeat yourself showing you're incapable of countering.

I do know Dooku didn't know that Sheev would betray him. He died. He backed down from Yoda.

smile

So you're saying that Jango could have used that flame thrower right here. https://youtu.be/xmR1ee223zQ 5:48-6:23 in this time frame speciffacly do you honestly think Jango could have used his flamethrower.

No one did. Sidious is the master of manipulation. After challenging him himself, which is something maul couldn't do without help form his mama and his entire army. Dooku just challenged him with no amp, no assistance, no anything. Dooku>Maul confirmed.

quanchi112
Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
So you're saying that Jango could have used that flame thrower right here. https://youtu.be/xmR1ee223zQ 5:48-6:23 in this time frame speciffacly do you honestly think Jango could have used his flamethrower.

No one did. Sidious is the master of manipulation. After challenging him himself, which is something maul couldn't do without help form his mama and his entire army. Dooku just challenged him with no amp, no assistance, no anything. Dooku>Maul confirmed. I said that's why Windu jumped away from both he and Dooku. You don't even follow what it is i am saying. You're almost too dense to even talk to.

Sidious also died due to stupidity. Maul still,lives while Sidious is dead. Happy Dance

Dooku went down to Sidious with a force choke. laughing out loud

EmperorSidious2
Originally posted by quanchi112
I said that's why Windu jumped away from both he and Dooku. You don't even follow what it is i am saying. You're almost too dense to even talk to.

Sidious also died due to stupidity. Maul still,lives while Sidious is dead. Happy Dance

Dooku went down to Sidious with a force choke. laughing out loud

No you didn't. Quit covering up your defeat.

Maul was allowed to live and has no future which to maul is worse.

So? The importance of this is?

quanchi112
Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
No you didn't. Quit covering up your defeat.

Maul was allowed to live and has no future which to maul is worse.

So? The importance of this is? He jumped away due to the flame thrower and then you show you didn't even understand basic English.


Maul lived and we don't know that. Sidious is dead though. big grin

Showing Maul was far greater against Sidious than Dooku was. Happy Dance

EmperorSidious2
Originally posted by quanchi112
He jumped away due to the flame thrower and then you show you didn't even understand basic English.


Maul lived and we don't know that. Sidious is dead though. big grin

Showing Maul was far greater against Sidious than Dooku was. Happy Dance

After being distracted by blaster bolts.

We actually do its said by Sidious in the comic.

Maul had help and he proved just as helpless as Dooku did. Did you not see how he was TK'd at the very start.

quanchi112
Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
After being distracted by blaster bolts.

We actually do its said by Sidious in the comic.

Maul had help and he proved just as helpless as Dooku did. Did you not see how he was TK'd at the very start. Who was being distracted by blaster bolts ?

Mauls fate isn't determined yet but Sidious is dead.

Maul did better on his own than a force choke. Maul defended himself whereas Dooku didn't.

EmperorSidious2
Originally posted by quanchi112
Who was being distracted by blaster bolts ?

Mauls fate isn't determined yet but Sidious is dead.

Maul did better on his own than a force choke. Maul defended himself whereas Dooku didn't.

Mace dude come on.

Because he has no future. His army has pretty much abandoned him, Talzin is dead, he has no future.

He was just pushed up agaisnt a wall like a child being bullied. Dooku never had the chance.

quanchi112
Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
Mace dude come on.

Because he has no future. His army has pretty much abandoned him, Talzin is dead, he has no future.

He was just pushed up agaisnt a wall like a child being bullied. Dooku never had the chance. By Jango thus proving my point that Dooku had backup.

We shall see. Sidious died. laughing out loud

He fought back whereas Dooku just took it.

EmperorSidious2
Originally posted by quanchi112
By Jango thus proving my point that Dooku had backup.

We shall see. Sidious died. laughing out loud

He fought back whereas Dooku just took it.

By the droids, idiot.

He won't be important. If he appears he's going to die out or something. Now Maul is some where in his 60s and wasn't even mentioned in ROTJ.

Dooku never had the chance to fight back.

quanchi112
Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
By the droids, idiot.

He won't be important. If he appears he's going to die out or something. Now Maul is some where in his 60s and wasn't even mentioned in ROTJ.

Dooku never had the chance to fight back. The droids and Jango. Quit lying, kiddo.

He's from an alien species and Yoda lived to 800. You're so ignorant when it comes to my Star Wars.

Dooku was unable to because he's weak.

laughing out loud

EmperorSidious2
Originally posted by quanchi112
The droids and Jango. Quit lying, kiddo.

He's from an alien species and Yoda lived to 800. You're so ignorant when it comes to my Star Wars.

Dooku was unable to because he's weak.

laughing out loud

The droids shot the bolts, not Jango. Quit being stupid. I know you can't help it, but at least try.

So? So is Luminara unduli, shaak ti, Yoda, all of these alien like beings. Yoda needed a freakin cane and his species is known for their life spans. Not suprised you didn't know that. Maul enigm an alien means jackshit sense his species isn't known for youth or anything or physic once they age.

It was over a hologram, it's not like he could fight back.

quanchi112
Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
The droids shot the bolts, not Jango. Quit being stupid. I know you can't help it, but at least try.

So? So is Luminara unduli, shaak ti, Yoda, all of these alien like beings. Yoda needed a freakin cane and his species is known for their life spans. Not suprised you didn't know that. Maul enigm an alien means jackshit sense his species isn't known for youth or anything or physic once they age.

It was over a hologram, it's not like he could fight back. 11-14 seconds you ignorant child. Jango shoots the bolts then the flames. You are so ignorant and intellectually challenged you disgust me. You're the poster boy for stupidity.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7LJS3YYTCN8

An alien species doesn't have to age similarly to humans. laughing out loud

Force powers. He didn't fight back. Both are holograms to the other, kiddo.

Happy Dance

EmperorSidious2
Originally posted by quanchi112
11-14 seconds you ignorant child. Jango shoots the bolts then the flames. You are so ignorant and intellectually challenged you disgust me. You're the poster boy for stupidity.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7LJS3YYTCN8

An alien species doesn't have to age similarly to humans. laughing out loud

Force powers. He didn't fight back. Both are holograms to the other, kiddo.

Happy Dance

I've seen the movie and it was the droids who shot first sense they did appear out of the tunnel and shoot, then Jango shot the flamethrower. No that title belongs to you. Defintlly. That video was clearly edited. I posted the exact same scene and it shows the droids shoot blaster bolts.

Except it hasn't been stated to age any differently.

Agaisnt Sidious? It wouldn't work. So no Dooku never had a chance to fight back.

quanchi112
Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
I've seen the movie and it was the droids who shot first sense they did appear out of the tunnel and shoot, then Jango shot the flamethrower. No that title belongs to you. Defintlly. That video was clearly edited. I posted the exact same scene and it shows the droids shoot blaster bolts.

Except it hasn't been stated to age any differently.

Agaisnt Sidious? It wouldn't work. So no Dooku never had a chance to fight back. We see Jango Fire at him. laughing out loud

You're so childish you deny the evidence. This is why you're a lost cause. You're delusional. Jango shoots then shoots the flamethrower. Don't lie.

You claimed that age would affect him so where's your proof ?

So you agree Dooku was screwed unlike Maul. Boom.

EmperorSidious2
Originally posted by quanchi112
We see Jango Fire at him. laughing out loud

You're so childish you deny the evidence. This is why you're a lost cause. You're delusional. Jango shoots then shoots the flamethrower. Don't lie.

You claimed that age would affect him so where's your proof ?

So you agree Dooku was screwed unlike Maul. Boom.

In your edited version. The real version Jango shot the flamethrower not the blaster bolts. Concession accepted. I new you were a troll, I never thought you would actually cheat.

Ohh no. Don't pull that on me. You're the one who is using a false video. I found the same scen and it showed the droids shoot the blaster bolts then Jango use the flamethrower.

Age affects everyone. It's affected Yoda, Dooku, everyone. They've had to ame adjustments to their fighting styles and if they don't it has a negative effect on them.

Actually maul was screwed as seen in the episode. He never stood a chance.

quanchi112
Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
In your edited version. The real version Jango shot the flamethrower not the blaster bolts. Concession accepted. I new you were a troll, I never thought you would actually cheat.

Ohh no. Don't pull that on me. You're the one who is using a false video. I found the same scen and it showed the droids shoot the blaster bolts then Jango use the flamethrower.

Age affects everyone. It's affected Yoda, Dooku, everyone. They've had to ame adjustments to their fighting styles and if they don't it has a negative effect on them.

Actually maul was screwed as seen in the episode. He never stood a chance. He shot the flamethrower and later the bolts. Dooku had backup which is the point.

It affects everyone differently. Dogs don't age the same as humans, kiddo.

Maul was in control unlike Dooku.

EmperorSidious2
Originally posted by quanchi112
He shot the flamethrower and later the bolts. Dooku had backup which is the point.

It affects everyone differently. Dogs don't age the same as humans, kiddo.

Maul was in control unlike Dooku.

If you mean while they were on the balcony, the first bolts came form the droids. He then jumped after the flamethrower was shot.

I don't have any pets so I'm not just aware of dogs aging. I know that there years equate to ours differently however.

Explain? Show how maul was in control? Filoni disagrees with you.

quanchi112
Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
If you mean while they were on the balcony, the first bolts came form the droids. He then jumped after the flamethrower was shot.

I don't have any pets so I'm not just aware of dogs aging. I know that there years equate to ours differently however.

Explain? Show how maul was in control? Filoni disagrees with you. You never understand what it is I mean.

Of course you need to have a pet to find out they don't live to the age of 90. laughing laughing out loud rolling on floor laughing

In control of Qui and Kenobi, confused kid.

EmperorSidious2
Originally posted by quanchi112
You never understand what it is I mean.

Of course you need to have a pet to find out they don't live to the age of 90. laughing laughing out loud rolling on floor laughing

In control of Qui and Kenobi, confused kid.

What you mean makes no since and you flip from point to point.

Yea you would

See this is what I mean. We were talking about Sidious and Maul, not maul vs Obi wan and Qui. You pull things out of your butt that weren't originally there. That's irrelevant as Dooku never fought them at the same time so not a good comparison.

Darth Thor
Originally posted by quanchi112
11-14 seconds you ignorant child. Jango shoots the bolts then the flames. You are so ignorant and intellectually challenged you disgust me. You're the poster boy for stupidity.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7LJS3YYTCN8





laughing out loud


Edited version.

I always suspected you've never even seen the films. This confirms it.

quanchi112
Originally posted by Darth Thor
laughing out loud


Edited version.

I always suspected you've never even seen the films. This confirms it. That video proved he used the flamethrower to make him evade the area of Dooku thus backing my claim.

quanchi112
Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
What you mean makes no since and you flip from point to point.

Yea you would

See this is what I mean. We were talking about Sidious and Maul, not maul vs Obi wan and Qui. You pull things out of your butt that weren't originally there. That's irrelevant as Dooku never fought them at the same time so not a good comparison. I was discussing mauls superior movement speed in both scenarios. We don't see Dooku able to even muster a defense.

AncientPower
I had a seizure after seeing some of the users in here.

Deronn_solo
Originally posted by AncientPower
I had a seizure after seeing some of the users in here.
thumb up

EmperorSidious2
Originally posted by quanchi112
I was discussing mauls superior movement speed in both scenarios. We don't see Dooku able to even muster a defense.

Maul was in an actual duel with sabers. Dooku was in a conversation over a hologram. The two aren't comparable.

Darth Thor
Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
Maul was in an actual duel with sabers. Dooku was in a conversation over a hologram. The two aren't comparable.



Of course they're not comparable. He's Trolling you.

quanchi112
Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
Maul was in an actual duel with sabers. Dooku was in a conversation over a hologram. The two aren't comparable. Yes, they are since they both have force powers. Dooku just submitted to the punishment whereas Maul didn't.

Darth Thor
Originally posted by quanchi112
Yes, they are since they both have force powers. Dooku just submitted to the punishment whereas Maul didn't.


What? Maul begged crawling on his hands and knees LOL.

quanchi112
Originally posted by Darth Thor
What? Maul begged crawling on his hands and knees LOL. After he fought back and was disarmed. Dooku never fought back. You missed the point.

Stealth Moose
Quanchi, that is the laziest Photoshop sig I've seen in a long time. I was making those like eight years ago.

quanchi112
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Quanchi, that is the laziest Photoshop sig I've seen in a long time. I was making those like eight years ago. Well, Scythe made it for me and it's quite rude you would attack his work in this manner. I like it.

Stealth Moose
Originally posted by quanchi112
Well, Scythe made it for me and it's quite rude you would attack his work in this manner. I like it.

https://desperateandunrehearsed.files.wordpress.com/2014/06/hat-tip.gif

Fated Xtasy
Originally posted by quanchi112
After he fought back and was disarmed. Dooku never fought back. You missed the point.

Why the **** would Dooku fight back against his Master? The most powerful Sith ever? He's being punished you dingus, the Sith have a history of punishing their apprentices.

Hell, freaking Inquisitor from SWR punishes guys by killing them.


Why would they. And Dooku, fight back?

It would be illogical for an apprentice to do so.

quanchi112
Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
Why the **** would Dooku fight back against his Master? The most powerful Sith ever? He's being punished you dingus, the Sith have a history of punishing their apprentices.

Hell, freaking Inquisitor from SWR punishes guys by killing them.


Why would they. And Dooku, fight back?

It would be illogical for an apprentice to do so. Maul acknowledged him as his master and fought back right after Sidious came at him. Dooku actually later died according to plan without even an objection. Dooku sat back while his master betrayed him to Anakin without even uttering a single word to save his own life. Dooku was submissive Maul wasn't.

Fated Xtasy
Originally posted by quanchi112
Maul acknowledged him as his master and fought back right after Sidious came at him. Dooku actually later died according to plan without even an objection. Dooku sat back while his master betrayed him to Anakin without even uttering a single word to save his own life. Dooku was submissive Maul wasn't.

He had his hands cut off, genius. And Anakin had his sabers to his throat, what was he supposed to do? Fight him off with his stumps?

quanchi112
Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
He had his hands cut off, genius. And Anakin had his sabers to his throat, what was he supposed to do? Fight him off with his stumps? Object. Say something to save his life. He just allowed Sidious to betray him which is very submissive.

EmperorSidious2
Originally posted by quanchi112
Yes, they are since they both have force powers. Dooku just submitted to the punishment whereas Maul didn't.

No they aren't. Someone was in an actual full on duel. Dooku was over a hologram receiving orders from Sidious. The two are t comparable. Having force powers doesn't make the two comparable.

quanchi112
Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
No they aren't. Someone was in an actual full on duel. Dooku was over a hologram receiving orders from Sidious. The two are t comparable. Having force powers doesn't make the two comparable. Yes, it is relevant as the force powers make him able to defend himself since Sidious is a hologram to him. Maul fought back. Dooku didn't.

EmperorSidious2
Originally posted by quanchi112
Yes, it is relevant as the force powers make him able to defend himself since Sidious is a hologram to him. Maul fought back. Dooku didn't.

How was Dooku supposed to know he would get force choked, second say he did defend himself, Sidious is defintily more powerful,3 they were in two different situations. Maul was in a battle, Dooku wasn't. The two aren't comparable.

Dooku and Mace is an even match up. Both ahve feats that compete with one another. I personally don't see them improving much after AOTC so I take their feats from ROTS as well, and still Mace has no feats that put him solidly above Dooku that it's easily. If anything it's enough evidence to put Dooku above Mace.

quanchi112
Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
How was Dooku supposed to know he would get force choked, second say he did defend himself, Sidious is defintily more powerful,3 they were in two different situations. Maul was in a battle, Dooku wasn't. The two aren't comparable.

Dooku and Mace is an even match up. Both ahve feats that compete with one another. I personally don't see them improving much after AOTC so I take their feats from ROTS as well, and still Mace has no feats that put him solidly above Dooku that it's easily. If anything it's enough evidence to put Dooku above Mace. Sidious is more skilled and more powerful yet Maul fought back. Dooku didn't. This was not Windu the guy who had Sidious begging for quarter.

Windu has no legit losses. The same cannot be said for Dooku.

EmperorSidious2
Originally posted by quanchi112
Sidious is more skilled and more powerful yet Maul fought back. Dooku didn't. This was not Windu the guy who had Sidious begging for quarter.

Windu has no legit losses. The same cannot be said for Dooku.

Cause he was in a physical contest. Dooku was across the galaxy over a hologram, receiving instructions in his own palace. Why would Dooku even have up force defenses in that situation? He wasn't fighting, he was in his own home, and Sidious trust him, so why have a sheild up? Lucas contradicts this.

That's irrelevant. If two character fight and they are shown to be even, it doesn't matter who loses more, it just matter about that match up. Dooku can compete and out duel Windu. I'm ready for legit arguments from you if you can Actaully give them.

quanchi112
Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
Cause he was in a physical contest. Dooku was across the galaxy over a hologram, receiving instructions in his own palace. Why would Dooku even have up force defenses in that situation? He wasn't fighting, he was in his own home, and Sidious trust him, so why have a sheild up? Lucas contradicts this.

That's irrelevant. If two character fight and they are shown to be even, it doesn't matter who loses more, it just matter about that match up. Dooku can compete and out duel Windu. I'm ready for legit arguments from you if you can Actaully give them. It doesn't matter as we clearly saw Sidious betray him and he still went to his death without even an objection.

Windu is shown to be superior and Dooku has losses Windu doesn't have. Vos embarrassed him.

<< THERE IS MORE FROM THIS THREAD HERE >>