Bible:Women Should Dress Modesty !!

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Fatima
Interesting ..I was reading about woman's status as seen in Christianity and Islam ..especially talking about covering her hair in Christianity..

I never saw Christian women wearing veil ?? confused ..only nuns


"Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God. Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head. And every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head...If a woman does not cover her head, she should have her hair cut off; and if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut or shaved off, she should cover her head"

1 Corrinthians 11:3-6


"I also want women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or expensive clothes, but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God"

1 Timothy 2:9-10

erm You know what I'm thinking about !

Alfheim
Yeah and?

lil bitchiness
Originally posted by Fatima
Interesting ..I was reading about woman's status as seen in Christianity and Islam ..especially talking about covering her hair in Christianity..

I never saw Christian women wearing veil ?? confused ..only nuns


"Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God. Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head. And every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head...If a woman does not cover her head, she should have her hair cut off; and if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut or shaved off, she should cover her head"

1 Corrinthians 11:3-6


"I also want women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or expensive clothes, but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God"

1 Timothy 2:9-10

erm You know what I'm thinking about !

It does not profess dressing up in a tent, however.

Alfheim
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
It does not profess dressing up in a tent, however.

Even if it did who cares.

lil bitchiness
Yeah. The irrelevance is apparent.

debbiejo
There are Christian churches that require a women to wear a head covering.

lil bitchiness
So? Jewish are required to do so, but many of them don't.

Alfheim
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Yeah. The irrelevance is apparent.

I dunno.....I suddenly have to urge to cover up and im not even a women....strange. no expression

lil bitchiness
shockish No! You must not.

On that note....

Women with darker skin are especially defficient in vitamin d, because they cover up, which is dangerous for them.
That was overlooked by Islamic science.

debbiejo
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
So? Jewish are required to do so, but many of them don't. I was just answering her question that there are denominations that do require a woman to wear a head covering.

According to scripture men are not to look like women, but yet they all had long hair. I believe that many churches take only certain texts they want to make pillars out of. A real god wouldn't care about these things. It's a persons heart that matters.

lil bitchiness
Originally posted by debbiejo
I was just answering his question that there are denominations that do require a woman to wear a head covering.

According to scripture men are not to look like women, but yet they all had long hair. I believe that many churches take only certain texts they want to make pillars out of. A real god wouldn't care about these things. It's a persons heart that matters.

The interesting thing is, that Jesus had long hair. Or at least thats what we're told.

debbiejo
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
The interesting thing is, that Jesus had long hair. Or at least thats what we're told. Yes, everyone had long hair, men and women. I believe even their close were similar also, long robes.

Churches that require such rules should be run away from and fast. It's very legalistic.

lil bitchiness
I know.

Technically I don't think God would care if we worshiped him, let alone if our hair was long.

Alfheim
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
I know.

Technically I don't think God would care if we worshiped him, let alone if our hair was long.

He might.... shifty

lil bitchiness
I think God wants us to have dreads. Dreads are cool!

inimalist
to completely derail this topic

I don't see anything wrong with women dressing modestly. Half of the girls I see make me feel like they should be hung up in a butcher's show window.

Alfheim
Originally posted by inimalist
to completely derail this topic

I don't see anything wrong with women dressing modestly. Half of the girls I see make me feel like they should be hung up in a butcher's show window.

It depends on the person. You should dress how you feel. Of course you wouldnt disagree with this.

inimalist
Originally posted by Alfheim
It depends on the person. You should dress how you feel. Of course you wouldnt disagree with this.

no, I do disagree with that a little

there is a point, to me of course, where it is just totally disrespectful to yourself to objectify yourself in that way. Not that someone shouldn't have the freedom to wear a 6" miniskirt when it is -23 + wind chill out, just that it promotes something about them that makes me almost want to wretch. Its like they are a shell of a person, totally preoccupied with the thinnest layer of themselves.

Alfheim
Originally posted by inimalist
no, I do disagree with that a little

there is a point, to me of course, where it is just totally disrespectful to yourself to objectify yourself in that way. Not that someone shouldn't have the freedom to wear a 6" miniskirt when it is -23 + wind chill out, just that it promotes something about them that makes me almost want to wretch. Its like they are a shell of a person, totally preoccupied with the thinnest layer of themselves.

Well yeah I would agree with that.....Its just that if you wear tight clothes it doesnt mean your shallow.

debbiejo
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
I think God wants us to have dreads. Dreads are cool! What?? laughing out loud

Fatima
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
shockish No! You must not.

On that note....

Women with darker skin are especially defficient in vitamin d, because they cover up, which is dangerous for them.
That was overlooked by Islamic science.


haha ..your sources ??

And what do u mean by that ??

.

Alliance
Originally posted by Fatima
Interesting ..I was reading about woman's status as seen in Christianity and Islam ..especially talking about covering her hair in Christianity..

I never saw Christian women wearing veil ?? confused ..only nuns

Some conservative sects do.Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Yeah. The irrelevance is apparent.
Apparently only to Islam bashers.

firefirefireph Women are oppressed because the cover thier heads!!!!111blarg

inimalist
Originally posted by Alfheim
Well yeah I would agree with that.....Its just that if you wear tight clothes it doesnt mean your shallow.

no, I'm not an extremist by any means. I love to look at pretty girls, and things like porn and strippers don't elicit the same response from me.

There is a line somewhere, I'll be damned if I know where to draw it. Maybe something like "If you spend more time of the day worrying about your clothing/appearance than reading" is where the problem lies.

Alfheim
Originally posted by Alliance

firefirefireph Women are oppressed because the cover thier heads!!!!111blarg

Buddhists reject violence?

Alliance
?

debbiejo
Oh, you're talking Dread Locks aren't you Lil B? confused LOL

Are you??

Fatima
"I also want women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or expensive clothes, but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God"

Here its mentioned to dress modesty in general ..I dont think its only when worship god ..maybe meant about faith confused

debbiejo
But what about the Belly dancers??

Alfheim
Originally posted by inimalist
no, I'm not an extremist by any means. I love to look at pretty girls, and things like porn and strippers don't elicit the same response from me.

There is a line somewhere, I'll be damned if I know where to draw it. Maybe something like "If you spend more time of the day worrying about your clothing/appearance than reading" is where the problem lies.

That sounds reasonable, but of course liek you said its a fine line.

Originally posted by Alliance
?

The point is sometimes you dont know what you're talking about either. So you can stop calling people islam bashers.

Fatima
Originally posted by Alfheim
Buddhists reject violence?

LOL ..All religions reject violence ..

lil bitchiness
Originally posted by Alliance
Some conservative sects do.
Apparently only to Islam bashers.

firefirefireph Women are oppressed because the cover thier heads!!!!111blarg

Oh dear.

The irrelevance lies in the fact that Christians DO NOT cover. Anywhere. Ever.

Besides, why do we care about what bible says. Noone uses Bible to advocates dressing women into a tent.

As I said, covering is dangerous for females of dark skin, because they become defficient in vitamin D. Fact.

Fatima
Originally posted by debbiejo
But what about the Belly dancers??

Ask the pope ..

Alfheim
Originally posted by Fatima
LOL ..All religions reject violence ..

Thats not the point. Its something that Alliance said and I cant be bothered to get into it was something along the lines of Buddhism is bad because the religon rejects violenec.

lil bitchiness
Originally posted by debbiejo
Oh, you're talking Dread Locks aren't you Lil B? confused LOL

Are you??

Yeah, I am stick out tongue

Alliance
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Women with darker skin are especially defficient in vitamin d, because they cover up, which is dangerous for them.
That was overlooked by Islamic science.

What stupid sh*t.

First of all, you imply that Islamic science is actually science.

Secondly, you could just as easily use your psedologic to say that women cover up to keep out of the sun, which is healty and prevents skin cancer and keeps thier folate levels high.

Most Arabs don't have skin that is THAT dark to really be considered an issue.

Lastly, no one makes decisions based on their D production. And this wasn't known until the mid 30s, well after the historical establishment of Islam and clothing.

I doubt you go up to a tribe in Papua New Guinea and say, you really shouldn't pierce your face as much, it leads to infection. You are simply trying to portray Islam as unhealthy and a scourge...again...and you fail...again.

Originally posted by Alfheim
The point is sometimes you dont know what you're talking about either. So you can stop calling people islam bashers.

Sorry, but I do. You can't even read my comments appropriately, so I'll have to dumb it down for you in YES or NO answers from now on.Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Oh dear.

The irrelevance lies in the fact that Christians DO NOT cover. Anywhere. Ever.

What the f**k? What the f**k? What the f**k? What the f**k? What the f**k?

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Besides, why do we care about what bible says. Noone uses Bible to advocates dressing women into a tent.

What the f**k? No...people never do anything because the bible advocates it, including dress code. Apparently you know nothing.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
As I said, covering is dangerous for females of dark skin, because they become defficient in vitamin D. Fact.

Show me a study.

Then we can discuss fact.

Alfheim
Originally posted by Alliance


Sorry, but I do. You can't even read my comments appropriately, so I'll have to dumb it down for you in YES or NO answers from now on.

Ok so what did you mean by Buddhists reject violence anyway? Did I misunderstand you?

Storm
When one talks about religious restrictions on what women can wear, the usual assumption may be that one is talking about Islam. But some Christians as well complain about women showing too much, and tempting men.

When a Woman Wears Pants





Tragic.

Alliance
Originally posted by Alfheim
Ok so what did you mean by Buddhists reject violence anyway? Did I misunderstand you?

you can pm me or bring it up in an old buddhist thread, but I wont discuss it here.

lil bitchiness
Originally posted by Fatima
haha ..your sources ??

And what do u mean by that ??

.



Read here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_D



Read here http://bodyecology.com/07/04/12/vitamin_d_deficiency.php



Read here http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/infocenter/vitamins/vitaminD/

On muslim forums, they inform that you go out once in a while without the black veil.

Alfheim
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Read here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_D



Read here http://bodyecology.com/07/04/12/vitamin_d_deficiency.php



Read here http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/infocenter/vitamins/vitaminD/

On muslim forums, they inform that you go out once in a while without the black veil.

....................................................................meh.....................................
no expression

lil bitchiness
Originally posted by Alliance
What stupid sh*t.

First of all, you imply that Islamic science is actually science.

Secondly, you could just as easily use your psedologic to say that women cover up to keep out of the sun, which is healty and prevents skin cancer and keeps thier folate levels high.

Most Arabs don't have skin that is THAT dark to really be considered an issue.

Lastly, no one makes decisions based on their D production. And this wasn't known until the mid 30s, well after the historical establishment of Islam and clothing.

I doubt you go up to a tribe in Papua New Guinea and say, you really shouldn't pierce your face as much, it leads to infection. You are simply trying to portray Islam as unhealthy and a scourge...again...and you fail...again.



Sorry, but I do. You can't even read my comments appropriately, so I'll have to dumb it down for you in YES or NO answers from now on.

What the f**k? What the f**k? What the f**k? What the f**k? What the f**k?



What the f**k? No...people never do anything because the bible advocates it, including dress code. Apparently you know nothing.



Show me a study.

Then we can discuss fact.


Research

High bone turnover in Muslim women with vitamin D deficiency

by
Medical journal of Australia

http://www.mja.com.au/public/issues/177_03_050802/dia10809_fm.html


http://www.mja.com.au/public/issues/175_05_030901/mason/mason.html

debbiejo
Our main source of Vitamin D from the sun ya know....

roll eyes (sarcastic)

lil bitchiness
Exactly.
Haha, not considered an issue? Are you serious? apperantly Alliance slept through his biology lessons.

90% of our vitamin D requirement comes from the action of UV light on skin.

We ALL can suffer from lack of vitamin D if not exposed to sun, regardless of skin colour, but people with lighter skin are at a lesser risk group.
Not to mention that there is a huge number of black muslims.

Risk groups include veiled women

http://www.asetts.org.au/Vit%20D%20BP%20for%20HP.pdf

The Journal of Nutrition confirms -

Subclinical Vitamin D Deficiency Is Increased in Adolescent Girls Who Wear Concealing Clothing

http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/135/2/218

http://www.rwh.org.au/rwhcpg/maternity.cfm?doc_id=6112

Research on vialed Turkish women http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/klu/198/2006/00000017/00000008/00000069?crawler=true
(I have access to this through my university for free, if anyone wants a full text)

Mindship
Religious edicts aside, women should be able to dress as they see fit, as long as they exercise Common Sense about it: there is a time and place for certain styles of dress. In other words: Sex is Power, and with power comes Responsibility (the longest 4-letter word on the planet). That's the difference between sexual expression and sexual obsession, and unfortunately, Western culture (largely profit-driven) has gone from sexual repression to expression to obsession.

Boris
I reckon women should dress like sluts, especially religious women.

Ytse
Originally posted by Boris
I reckon women should dress like sluts, especially religious women.

Including your mother?

Boris
Yes... of course. roll eyes (sarcastic)

Ytse
Originally posted by Boris
Yes... of course. roll eyes (sarcastic)

You're not Boris! You're just oedipus wearing a boris suit!

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Boris
I reckon women should dress like sluts, especially religious women.

thumb up laughing

debbiejo
That works out quite well for Mammoth women. They'll throw ya all around and you'll like it too!

Nellinator
Fatima, if you read a little lower in Corinthians, verse 15 to be exact you will see that a woman's hair is actually her covering.

"But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering."

Nellinator
Originally posted by debbiejo
Our main source of Vitamin D from the sun ya know....

roll eyes (sarcastic) No it's not. The sun simply helps us absorb it if I remember correctly. The vitamin itself comes from our food.

debbiejo
It's an activation thing. People that don't get enough sunlight get sick, even suffer from depression.

ADarksideJedi
Girls should dress modest.I mean if they don't want to be treated or looked at by a man in a certain way.They should wear some more clothers then they normanly do.
It is them who is getting attention by what they are wearing.If they want it then they should not be wearing a mini skirt or whatever.JM

lil bitchiness
Originally posted by Mindship
Religious edicts aside, women should be able to dress as they see fit, as long as they exercise Common Sense about it: there is a time and place for certain styles of dress. In other words: Sex is Power, and with power comes Responsibility (the longest 4-letter word on the planet). That's the difference between sexual expression and sexual obsession, and unfortunately, Western culture (largely profit-driven) has gone from sexual repression to expression to obsession.

I concur.

I wore headscarf and it is uncomfortable. My head was sweating like crazy, my ears were hurting (as scarf goes behind ears when is put on) and it was just all around hot.

I tried once burkha for fun, and the breathing space was very limited and and suffocating.

But my guess is, people get used to it, so they don't really notice.

Everyone should dress whatever they feel like, provided they exercise common sense, of course.

debbiejo
I can understand the dress codes for visitors in foreign countries. If a certain country is very Conservative and a visitor dresses what they think is common clothing, it could cause problems with the local men. If they're not used to seeing a lot of skin then they might do something very very naughty.

lil bitchiness
Originally posted by debbiejo
I can understand the dress codes for visitors in foreign countries. If a certain country is very Conservative and a visitor dresses what they think is common clothing, it could cause problems with the local men. If they're not used to seeing a lot of skin then they might do something very very naughty.

Yes, absolutely.
But the same should apply other way around. If you come into someone else's country, you should dress the way population does, no?

Bardock42
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Yes, absolutely.
But the same should apply other way around. If you come into someone else's country, you should dress the way population does, no?

Not if the rule in that country is "dress as you please".

debbiejo
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Yes, absolutely.
But the same should apply other way around. If you come into someone else's country, you should dress the way population does, no? Understandable reasoning, but I'm not sure that would work. Imagine a tour of men from say the Middle East coming to the US surrounded by women in shorts. I think they'd have a very hard time.

Symmetric Chaos
Originally posted by debbiejo
Understandable reasoning, but I'm not sure that would work. Imagine a tour of men from say the Middle East coming to the US surrounded by women in shorts. I think they'd have a very hard time.

Innuendo!

But yes it would probably make them uncomfortable.

lil bitchiness
Originally posted by debbiejo
Understandable reasoning, but I'm not sure that would work. Imagine a tour of men from say the Middle East coming to the US surrounded by women in shorts. I think they'd have a very hard time.

If you come to the West, there are other things to wear than short skirts. Walking around in burkha is not acceptable - since you're not in your own country. It would be exactly the same as people going to north Africa or Middle East, being hot, and taking their clothes off.

Symmetric Chaos
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
And imagine group of western men in middle east sourounded by burkha's and shalvare? They would have hard time too.

If you come to the West, there are other things to wear than short skirts. Walking around in burkha is not acceptable - since you're not in your own country. It would be exactly the same as people going to north Africa or Middle East, being got, and taking their clothes off.

Do you think the reaction to wearing a burkha in the West would by more or less than the reaction to a skirt or shorts in the MidEast?

lil bitchiness
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Do you think the reaction to wearing a burkha in the West would by more or less than the reaction to a skirt or shorts in the MidEast?

You know, I think so. I suppose because you would never wear a skirt in the Middle East, especially since you went there to live (if you did that is)

Bardock42
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
If you come to the West, there are other things to wear than short skirts. Walking around in burkha is not acceptable - since you're not in your own country. It would be exactly the same as people going to north Africa or Middle East, being hot, and taking their clothes off.

N-not really. Where does it say that anyone in the west can't wear a Burqa?

Alfheim
Originally posted by Bardock42
N-not really. Where does it say that anyone in the west can't wear a Burqa?

Hes going in for the kill...its the trademark stammer!!

People should be able to wear Burqas if they want but I think most people if they had a choice wouldnt. I think thats lil's beef really.

lil bitchiness
Originally posted by Alfheim
Hes going in for the kill...its the trademark stammer.

Textbook example.

Bardock42
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Textbook example. Of Cheerleading?

I agree, most tedious.

But it is not the same. My sister could wear a Burqa if she wanted, she just doesn't want to. We don't have a dress code. And you don't have to fear physical violence on a greater scale if you choose to wear one, whether you are a westerner or from the middle east or even black.

lil bitchiness
Actually, we do have a dress code. You are now allowed to go in a bikini in a bank or a public buildingl. You are also not allowed to wear a hood or face covering when entering a bank, or public building for security reasons.

etid, just checked online - no sunglasses, hoods or hats

Alfheim
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Actually, we do have a dress code. You are now allowed to go in a bikini in a bank or a public buildingl.

Didnt know that.

Bardock42
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Actually, we do have a dress code. You are now allowed to go in a bikini in a bank or a public buildingl. You are also not allowed to wear a hood or face covering when entering a bank, or public building for security reasons.

etid, just checked online - no sunglasses, hoods or hats

Yes, that is an exception though. You are allowed to wear it going shopping for example...we try to be liberal about what to wear as we have many different ideas what decent clothes are. As for the bikini thing I am not sure whether that is accurate, but I would say that is more of a problem on our side.


We don't tell people what to wear in their day to day lives...if it does not affect others. And a Burqa doesn't.

And try to adress my point, not secondary issues, I would appreciate it.

lil bitchiness
Originally posted by Alfheim
Didnt know that.

Yeah. Part of Public Indecency. You could get cautioned, just like you'll get arrested for walking around naked.

Bardock42
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Yeah. Part of Public Indecency. You could get cautioned, just like you'll get arrested for walking around naked. Is there a sort of ruling that one could see to support that?

lil bitchiness
Originally posted by Bardock42
Yes, that is an exception though. You are allowed to wear it going shopping for example...we try to be liberal about what to wear as we have many different ideas what decent clothes are. As for the bikini thing I am not sure whether that is accurate, but I would say that is more of a problem on our side.


We don't tell people what to wear in their day to day lives...if it does not affect others. And a Burqa doesn't.

And try to adress my point, not secondary issues, I would appreciate it.

And noone here is talking about what you do in your own home and with your own friends. Thats not the issue, so we can move on right now.

The issue is ban in the public places - schools, banks, all public buildings, such as courthouses, police stations, hospitals, workplaces, malls...etc.

Alfheim
Originally posted by Bardock42
Is there a sort of ruling that one could see to support that?

E-even if it is true its not really that important is it? Not like somebodies gonna die.

(Could'nt help the stammer).

Bardock42
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
And noone here is talking about what you do in your own home and with your own friends. Thats not the issue, so we can move on right now.

The issue is ban in the public places - schools, banks, all public buildings, such as courthouses, police stations, hospitals, workplaces, malls...etc.

That's not what I was saying, I meant if you wear it in public places. Why should it be banned there?

And you changed the issue, I don't appreciate it, you said they should dress like the other people in that country. Very different issue to what you say now.

It is of course to consider whether we should allow people to hide their faces in such public places as banks, courthouses and police stations (and similar).

But what reason is there to not allow people to wear it anywhere else?

Originally posted by Alfheim
E-even if it is true its not really that important is it? Not like somebodies gonna die.

(Could'nt help the stammer).

I-it kinda is. Because it is either a lie or an atrocious law that should not be in place. Either way, I care to know.

Alfheim
Originally posted by Bardock42

I-it kinda is. Because it is either a lie or an atrocious law that should not be in place. Either way, I care to know.

I dunno man arent there like more important things to worry about apart from wearing bikinis in public buildings.

I wouldnt call the law atrocious. erm (If it exists)

lil bitchiness
Originally posted by Bardock42
That's not what I was saying, I meant if you wear it in public places. Why should it be banned there?

And you changed the issue, I don't appreciate it, you said they should dress like the other people in that country. Very different issue to what you say now.

It is of course to consider whether we should allow people to hide their faces in such public places as banks, courthouses and police stations (and similar).

But what reason is there to not allow people to wear it anywhere else?



I-it kinda is. Because it is either a lie or an atrocious law that should not be in place. Either way, I care to know.

Lets all stutter.

D-do you even know what a burkha is? no expression I don't think you do.


http://blog.shsweb.fi/narf/burkha.jpg

Hmm, yeah I don't really see why THIS should be banned in banks and public buildings.

lil bitchiness
Originally posted by Alfheim
I dunno man arent there like more important things to worry about apart from wearing bikinis in public buildings.

I wouldnt call the law atrocious. erm (If it exists)

It falls under the Public Indecency act, of the Public Order section (I think, I need to check, since thats not really my area) about indecent exposure, ie nakiddness!!Happy Dance

Alfheim
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Lets all stutter.

D-do you even know what a burkha is? no expression I don't think you do.


http://blog.shsweb.fi/narf/burkha.jpg

Hmm, yeah I don't really see why THIS should be banned in banks and public buildings.

Er no im hijacking Bardocks stutter and nobody else. If you start doing it then everyone might start doing it. miffed:

Well yeah I can see why that shouldnt be allowed in public buildings. erm

lil bitchiness
I love the miffed smilie!!
Its so cute and angry at the same time!


miffed

Alfheim
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
I love the miffed smilie!!
Its so cute and angry at the same time!


miffed

Yeah I know. big grin Im always looking for an excuse to get miffed. I love this one as well angrymob

Ok back on topic miffed:

Bardock42
Originally posted by Alfheim
I dunno man arent there like more important things to worry about apart from wearing bikinis in public buildings.

I wouldnt call the law atrocious. erm (If it exists)

I would. As I did.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Lets all stutter.

D-do you even know what a burkha is? no expression I don't think you do.


http://blog.shsweb.fi/narf/burkha.jpg

Hmm, yeah I don't really see why THIS should be banned in banks and public buildings.

Yes, i do know what it is. Can you now address my points like a reasonable person instead of ignoring them like....well, you.

Also, can you read? If so, would you reread what I said and your answer and then tell me what is wrong with it? I suppose you can dodge and change the issues with other debaters here, but I can actually remember what was said more than 2 posts ago, so...stop doing it, it is childish.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Er no im hijacking Bardocks stutter and nobody else. If you start doing it then everyone might start doing it. miffed:

Well yeah I can see why that shouldnt be allowed in public buildings. erm It's not my stutter.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
It falls under the Public Indecency act, of the Public Order section (I think, I need to check, since thats not really my area) about indecent exposure, ie nakiddness!!Happy Dance Please do. I would be curious...thanks.

Bardock42
Okay, bitchi, here is the question about the actual topic:

Do you think women should be banned from wearing Burkhas when walking around the street in the Western world?

Just answer that then we can continue to discuss, because you constantly changing the topic and ignoring arguments is very tedious.

Alliance
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Research

High bone turnover in Muslim women with vitamin D deficiency

by
Medical journal of Australia

http://www.mja.com.au/public/issues/177_03_050802/dia10809_fm.html


http://www.mja.com.au/public/issues/175_05_030901/mason/mason.html

OHHHH!!!! Fabulous. However, these studies were done in Australia, not in the Middle East. Naturally, like most people in the world, you can only read the title and not the actual science.

The study noted that there was a recent "a resurgence of vitamin D deficiency" and NEVER compared statistical data from Muslims to any other group. The values that they conducted the statistical tests against we're likely ethereal values that didn't represent the norm for people with skin color approximating that of Muslim women (assuming there is a correlation between religion and skin color, which, I think you would find).

Even better, none of this actually links dress patterns with Vitamin D deficiency. This is ASSUMED and factors like poverty that could have even more severe effects on vitamin deficiency were not taken into account. The study links Vitamin D with high bone turnover, which is already known. So basically, you haven't given me anything, as usual...only filler.

Besides...you're TOTALLY neglecting the great skin care benefits Muslim women can receive by keeping themselves covered. That you can't get elsewhere, and you can get your vitamin D just by leaving your food in the sun, you don't have to synthesize it all yourself. Its weighing benefits, lil....and as usual you can't separate your bigotry from fact.

lil bitchiness
Originally posted by Bardock42
I would. As I did.



Yes, i do know what it is. Can you now address my points like a reasonable person instead of ignoring them like....well, you.

Also, can you read? If so, would you reread what I said and your answer and then tell me what is wrong with it? I suppose you can dodge and change the issues with other debaters here, but I can actually remember what was said more than 2 posts ago, so...stop doing it, it is childish.

It's not my stutter.

Please do. I would be curious...thanks.

What exactly did you say that I didn't address.

You said we don't have dress codes. We do when it comes to public buildings, such as I stated above. Burkha cannot be worn in public buildings or banks for a reason, nor it should be allowed, for security reasons.

The argument about Burkha in France and currently in Britain is about above. France banned burkha, because of such reasons.

Now, what revelation did you bring up that I didn't address?


Originally posted by Alliance
OHHHH!!!! Fabulous. However, these studies were done in Australia, not in the Middle East. Naturally, like most people in the world, you can only read the title and not the actual science.

The study noted that there was a recent "a resurgence of vitamin D deficiency" and NEVER compared statistical data from Muslims to any other group. The values that they conducted the statistical tests against we're likely ethereal values that didn't represent the norm for people with skin color approximating that of Muslim women (assuming there is a correlation between religion and skin color, which, I think you would find).

Even better, none of this actually links dress patterns with Vitamin D deficiency. This is ASSUMED and factors like poverty that could have even more severe effects on vitamin deficiency were not taken into account. The study links Vitamin D with high bone turnover, which is already known. So basically, you haven't given me anything, as usual...only filler.

Besides...you're TOTALLY neglecting the great skin care benefits Muslim women can receive by keeping themselves covered. That you can't get elsewhere, and you can get your vitamin D just by leaving your food in the sun, you don't have to synthesize it all yourself. Its weighing benefits, lil....and as usual you can't separate your bigotry from fact.
You asked me to provide you with research. I provided medical research to back my argument.

Now, I am asking you to provide me with research which counter argues that, otherwise your argument is merely an opinion, without a single fact.

Alliance
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
You asked me to provide you with research. I provided medical research to back my argument.

Now, I am asking you to provide me with research which counter argues that, otherwise your argument is merely an opinion, without a single fact.

Whats the purpose of theat study? To establish that there is a correlation between Vitamin D deficiency and high bone turnover in Muslim women. Ironically, what they observed is what one would expect in any human. No suprizes there.

Nowhere in that study does it provide any evidence that there is a correlation between traditional Muslim Dress and Vitamin D deficiency.

Bardock42
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
What exactly did you say that I didn't address.


blah blah

Nellinator
Originally posted by Alliance
Whats the purpose of theat study? To establish that there is a correlation between Vitamin D deficiency and high bone turnover in Muslim women. Ironically, what they observed is what one would expect in any human. No suprizes there.

Nowhere in that study does it provide any evidence that there is a correlation between traditional Muslim Dress and Vitamin D deficiency. I think I'll throw in the fact that clothes have a very low SPF rating and don't actually stop very much of our absorbtion of UV radiation. Therefore, there shouldn't be vitamin D deficiency if they go outside, fully clothed or not.

Alliance
I doubt its that bad. The middle east is not exactly a low-sun environment. And vitamin D can be gotten from food too.

leonheartmm
Originally posted by inimalist
no, I'm not an extremist by any means. I love to look at pretty girls, and things like porn and strippers don't elicit the same response from me.

There is a line somewhere, I'll be damned if I know where to draw it. Maybe something like "If you spend more time of the day worrying about your clothing/appearance than reading" is where the problem lies.


women/girls shud not be forced into dressing up/thinking/acting in ANY way because of the pressure of the society around them, be it islamic/conservative, or openly liberal whod demeen a girl if she didnt show skin. n porn isnt real, and it isnt hot cause it makes the bpdy unnatural and ugly.

burqas are an extreme, they shud be banned. theyr not done by choice. its forced in islam. also women who claim to do it by choice are brainwashed. it is an extreme. i mean you cant go around naked in a public place even if ur NOT brainwashed and really want to do it of ur own free will. thas an extreme too. but burqas, it is established, are a sign of oppression in islam which is forced physically and psychologically.

leonheartmm
and let me tell u sumthin, burqas are Fn HOT!!!!!!!!!{as in temperature wise} i live in pakistan, i ought to know, temperature here can go WELL above 50 degrees CELSIUS, and humidity can also go through the roof. its terrible for ur health to wear aburqa, and oddly, the most sunstrokes here happen to either people on a motorcycle out unprotected or women in burqas.

Alfheim
Originally posted by Bardock42
Okay, bitchi, here is the question about the actual topic:

Do you think women should be banned from wearing Burkhas when walking around the street in the Western world?



Even if she did not answer the question these are probably the reasons why she doesnt want burqas worn in the west.


Originally posted by leonheartmm


burqas are an extreme, they shud be banned. theyr not done by choice. its forced in islam. also women who claim to do it by choice are brainwashed. it is an extreme. i mean you cant go around naked in a public place even if ur NOT brainwashed and really want to do it of ur own free will. thas an extreme too. but burqas, it is established, are a sign of oppression in islam which is forced physically and psychologically.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
and let me tell u sumthin, burqas are Fn HOT!!!!!!!!!{as in temperature wise} i live in pakistan, i ought to know, temperature here can go WELL above 50 degrees CELSIUS, and humidity can also go through the roof. its terrible for ur health to wear aburqa, and oddly, the most sunstrokes here happen to either people on a motorcycle out unprotected or women in burqas.

Bardock42
Originally posted by Alfheim
Even if she did not answer the question these are probably the reasons why she doesnt want burqas worn in the west.

Oh she thinks that her opinions and some bad examples would give her the right to decide what someone wears in their free-time?

Ookay.

Alfheim
Originally posted by Bardock42
Oh

Is that supposed to be Or? I think my examples are pretty good reasons why a burqa should be banned, what do you think? Im not really down with the vitamin D example.

Bardock42
Originally posted by Alfheim
Is that supposed to be Or? I think my examples are pretty good reasons why a burqa should be banned, what do you think? Im not really down with the vitamin D example. N-no, it's supposed to be an "Oh" as in an exclamation of surprise.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Is that supposed to be Or? I think my examples are pretty good reasons why a burqa should be banned, what do you think? Im not really down with the vitamin D example.

Well, for one it does not seem to be proven. It seems to be a bullshit argument to support some sort of biased idiotic view. And regardless, if a person wants a lack Vitamin D that is their decision.

Sure, it is not good that they are forced to wear it...but, it would also be unfair to not allow anyone to wear it. It's their decision. And it should be.

Alfheim
Originally posted by Bardock42
N-no, it's supposed to be an "Oh" as in an exclamation of surprise.


OK ok people do make spelling mistakes you know. No need to start stammering...gezzz.

Originally posted by Bardock42

Well, for one it does not seem to be proven. It seems to be a bullshit argument to support some sort of biased idiotic view. And regardless, if a person wants a lack Vitamin D that is their decision.

I dont agree with it anyway.

Originally posted by Bardock42

Sure, it is not good that they are forced to wear it...but, it would also be unfair to not allow anyone to wear it. It's their decision. And it should be.

Well in that case I agree with you. I just think its what its associated with, I really dont think anybody in their right mind would want to ear it. Also I do think if you were teaching children or you were having a businnes meeting they shouldnt wear it.

lil bitchiness
Originally posted by Alliance
Whats the purpose of theat study? To establish that there is a correlation between Vitamin D deficiency and high bone turnover in Muslim women. Ironically, what they observed is what one would expect in any human. No suprizes there.

Nowhere in that study does it provide any evidence that there is a correlation between traditional Muslim Dress and Vitamin D deficiency.

Purpose of the research is outlined in the research. Please address what I asked you to.Originally posted by Bardock42

Its already banned in France, Netherlands, and its on its way to being banned in England.
Following countries have either banned it or are proposing to do so - Turkey, Netherlands, Belgium, France, Uk, Germany, Italy, Denmark.
Whats your point again?
I don't think ''would I ban'' is relevant, since officials of said countries have already done so or are in the process of doing so.
Do I support? Yes.

In Amsterdamn they have implemented a law of cutting social benefits to unemployed women wearing burkha on the grounds that makes them unemployable to predoninantly non-muslims country.

(see wiki, or spiegel online)

Alliance
Originally posted by Alfheim
Im not really down with the vitamin D example.

Thank you.Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Purpose of the research is outlined in the research.

Yeah, and you misconstrue it. Your paper and your mouth are saying different things and it doesn't add up.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Please address what I asked you to.

If Vitamin D deficiencies is not shown to be a problem among native populations wearing burkas, why should I take my time to address unbased hypotheses? Especially from you?

lil bitchiness
Originally posted by Alliance
Thank you.

Yeah, and you misconstrue it. Your paper and your mouth are saying different things and it doesn't add up.



If Vitamin D deficiencies is not shown to be a problem among native populations wearing burkas, why should I take my time to address unbased hypotheses? Especially from you?

Perhaps if you bothered to read what I posted, it would show you the opposite. Second, it is not from ME, since I didn't propose or do research. Its the research I read which lead to my conclusion.

READ -

Risk groups include veiled women

http://www.asetts.org.au/Vit%20D%20BP%20for%20HP.pdf

The Journal of Nutrition confirms -

Subclinical Vitamin D Deficiency Is Increased in Adolescent Girls Who Wear Concealing Clothing

http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/135/2/218

http://www.rwh.org.au/rwhcpg/maternity.cfm?doc_id=6112

Research on vialed Turkish women http://www.ingentaconnect.com/conte...69?crawler=true
(I have access to this through my university for free, if anyone wants a full text)

Now provide me with research with states that vitamin D is NOT a problem among women wearing burkha.

lil bitchiness
If you can't be bothered to read, in the article it says -

Groups at risk -
People who cover their skin and
heads with clothing and veils for cultural or religious reasons.

Why? Insufficient skin is exposed for the body to synthesize
adequate Vitamin D.

Study NOt in Australia says -

Over the past decade, the majority of cases with rickets in developed countries occurred in breast-fed infants, children with dark skin, or those who remain fully clothed for religious or social reasons, i.e., those at greatest risk for inadequate vitamin D production from sun exposure (2,3). Additionally, it was noted that deficiency of vitamin D in infants increasingly depends on their mother’s vitamin D status in some ethnic groups of developed countries (4). Recent reports on vitamin D deficiency and/or rickets in adolescence pointed out a high prevalence in the Middle East (5–9). Vitamin D deficiency during adolescence may lead to carpopedal spasms, diffuse limb pains, deformities of the lower limbs, and generalized weakness (5).

Recent reports from Middle Eastern countries have also emphasized the relation between deficiency of vitamin D and life style, i.e., concealing clothing (5–7).

Rep 7 - El-Hajj Fuleihan, G., Nabulsi, M., Choucair, M., Salamoun, M., Hajj Shahine, C., Kizirian, A. & Tannous, R. (2001) Hypovitaminosis D in healthy schoolchildren. Pediatrics 107:E53.

Rep 5 (edit/ its not free full text just abstract for those without subscribtion, I just tried) http://adc.bmj.com/cgi/content/abstract/84/6/501?ijkey=cee0bb5823ea659fb46bf3c8c48700c8419b3cf0&keytype2=tf_ipsecsha

Alliance
My, I certainly have to beat this out of you smile

Its well known that reduced sunlight exposure reduces the amount of vitamin D synthesized. However, severe vitamin D deficiencies have been abserved in healthy populations of girls in developed nations (G Das1, S Crocombe2, M McGrath1, J L Berry3 and M Z Mughal2)

Vitamin D deficiencies are higher among poor, urban, non-white adolescent girls everywhere. ALL of those factors contribute, so its stupid to make an argument relying only on dress when those factors have not been comprehensively addressed.

Lastly, this whole deal is stupid becuase such 'deficeincies" can be corrected by nutritional supplements or by proper nutrition.

Bardock42
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Its already banned in France, Netherlands, and its on its way to being banned in England.

Does that mean it is good to ban it?

Also, what are the terms of the ban?

And do you have any evidence to back that up?


Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Following countries have either banned it or are proposing to do so - Turkey, Netherlands, Belgium, France, Uk, Germany, Italy, Denmark.

Not heard of it in Germany, but possible. Again, so what? Are you into creating tangent topics?


Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Whats your point again?

That if a country states that religious freedom should be protected and that freedom of expression is granted it should not be mandtory for Islamic women to not wear a Burka.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
I don't think ''would I ban'' is relevant, since officials of said countries have already done so or are in the process of doing so.

It is relevant though. Since I was asking about your opinion, and not whether other people agree with it.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Do I support? Yes.

Good, why?

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
In Amsterdamn they have implemented a law of cutting social benefits to unemployed women wearing burkha on the grounds that makes them unemployable to predoninantly non-muslims country.

(see wiki, or spiegel online)

Different issue I would say. Bad analogy...

Anyways, they get punished because the employers are ignorant. It's like cutting it for gay people because employers are homophobe and they could just screw women instead.

lil bitchiness
I support it for security reasons -

identification mostly. I don't believe Muslims women will go on a rampage of murder and robbery. But there are people who might use the given dress freedom to do such, and identification wont be possible.

I don't really have a problem with headscarf or long dresses or such. As long as face is not covered.

Bardock42
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
I support it for security reasons -

identification mostly. I don't believe Muslims women will go on a rampage of murder and robbery. But there are people who might use the given dress freedom to do such, and identification wont be possible.

I don't really have a problem with headscarf or long dresses or such. As long as face is not covered. So, you are opposed to every sort of mask, tuque's that cover your face...raincoats....etc.?

And to cut down the freedoms of everyone for an incredibly small percentage of bad scenarios. I mean, is there anything to indicate that what you say might happen is actually happen at the moment where they are still legal in most western countries? Or are you just saying it could, possibly be used though it isn't?

Also, I would like to add, I am incredibly irriated by your debating style or lack thereof.

lil bitchiness
Originally posted by Bardock42
So, you are opposed to every sort of mask, tuque's that cover your face...raincoats....etc.?

And to cut down the freedoms of everyone for an incredibly small percentage of bad scenarios. I mean, is there anything to indicate that what you say might happen is actually happen at the moment where they are still legal in most western countries? Or are you just saying it could, possibly be used though it isn't?

Also, I would like to add, I am incredibly irriated by your debating style or lack thereof.

Why?

The reason I support the banning of burkha is the same reason France and other countries support it.
For the same reason they banned it/are banning it.

Whats there left to debate?

You probably did not know what burkha was, before I posted a picture, and were most probably confusing it with headscarf, hence you didn't know that it was banned in numerous European countries.

You are beating on a dead horse. Move on. Burkha is banned for a reasons of security in numerous countries.

You don't agree, I don't really care. Its a dead, overdone argument which has passed on TV too many times, and all your questions and ''arguments'' are old and overstated.

The fact stands that numerous governments and law makers agree with the fact is unnaceeptable.

Read why the France banned Burkha - then take it as my argument to shorten time.

Alfheim
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Why?

The reason I support the banning of burkha is the same reason France and other countries support it.
For the same reason they banned it/are banning it.

Whats there left to debate?

You probably did not know what burkha was, before I posted a picture, and were most probably confusing it with headscarf, hence you didn't know that it was banned in numerous European countries.

You are beating on a dead horse. Move on. Burkha is banned for a reasons of security in numerous countries.

You don't agree, I don't really care. Its a dead, overdone argument which has passed on TV too many times, and all your questions and ''arguments'' are old and overstated.

The fact stands that numerous governments and law makers agree with the fact is unnaceeptable.

Read why the France banned Burkha - then take it as my argument to shorten time.

Sounds reasonable. no expression

lil bitchiness
Whichever argument he wants he can take. I concur with all of them.

Although Netherlands have a better one than crazy French people. Kidding, I love French.

Bardock42
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Why?

The reason I support the banning of burkha is the same reason France and other countries support it.
For the same reason they banned it/are banning it.

Whats there left to debate?

You probably did not know what burkha was, before I posted a picture, and were most probably confusing it with headscarf, hence you didn't know that it was banned in numerous European countries.

You are beating on a dead horse. Move on. Burkha is banned for a reasons of security in numerous countries.

You don't agree, I don't really care. Its a dead, overdone argument which has passed on TV too many times, and all your questions and ''arguments'' are old and overstated.

The fact stands that numerous governments and law makers agree with the fact is unnaceeptable.

Read why the France banned Burkha - then take it as my argument to shorten time.

Woman, you can't even produce a correct sentence, you should probably consider not to comment on other people's mental abilities.

And Burkhas are NOT banned in even more countries, what's your point?

And do you even know how a debate works? You can't just throw out random nonsense, and then not address the points. Do you think just because a government agreed with your ignorant opinion it makes it suddenly a good argument? You are an odd person. If you don't want to debate, then don't, but do not just ignore all points and repeat the same nonsense, it is tedious and helps nobody.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Sounds reasonable. no expression http://www.k-read.net/Pepline/Pepline_coupon-poms.jpg

Ushgarak
She's perfectly at liberty to say that her views are the same as France's ar the Netherlands', Bardock. She doesn't have to re-state them and they are available to research.

Meanwhile, your allegories are poor. It's unreasonable to dislike a person because he is homosexual. it is NOT unreasonable to be unsettled by someone with their face covered at interview. That's simply very basic. It's the same reason people wearing armed-robber style face masks would hardly make a good impression at interview.

Religious freedom does not overrule all other considerations, including common sense.

Alfheim
Originally posted by Bardock42


http://www.k-read.net/Pepline/Pepline_coupon-poms.jpg

C'mon now. Arent you being a bit of an arse. I didnt agree with the Vitamin D example. Im agreeing with banning it for national security reasons....damn.

I think its ***hole mode again.

Bardock42
Originally posted by Alfheim
C'mon now. Arent you being a bit of an arse. I didnt agree with the Vitamin D example. Im agreeing with banning it for national security reasons....damn.

I think its ***hole mode again. Or...I just don't agree with the argument.

I mean...how many people got killed in the European Union in the last 30 years by someone a) wearing a Burkha and b) that didn't get caught because of wearing it?

It's more of scare mongering, isn't it? Yes it is. By muslim haters like lil b, who, certainly has good reasons to dislike Islam, but goes too far often.

Bardock42
Originally posted by Ushgarak
She's perfectly at liberty to say that her views are the same as France's ar the Netherlands', Bardock. She doesn't have to re-state them and they are available to research.

Meanwhile, your allegories are poor. It's unreasonable to dislike a person because he is homosexual. it is NOT unreasonable to be unsettled by someone with their face covered at interview. That's simply very basic. It's the same reason people wearing armed-robber style face masks would hardly make a good impression at interview.

Religious freedom does not overrule all other considerations, including common sense.

So, may I ask you whether you agree that people in your country should not be allowed to wear Burkhas.

I might add that I did not say that she's not at liberty to do so, but that it irritates me. Because she brings up something and the ignores following conversation...just, as I said, odd to me, perfectly her right of course.
I hope that clarifies that.

And yes, the analogy is not that great. Though, it is hardly my core argument.

WrathfulDwarf
What bothers is the fact is that the French can do these kind of bans on muslims and is seen as okay.

But heaven forbid if America does it. "OH NOES!!!! THOSE PARANOID BUSH LOVING BIBLE READERS!!!!!"

Bardock42
Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
What bothers is the fact is that the French can do these kind of bans on muslims and is seen as okay.

But heaven forbid if America does it. "OH NOES!!!! THOSE PARANOID BUSH LOVING BIBLE READERS!!!!!"

Wouldn't it be against the constitution, too?

Fatima
Burkha or Niqab is banned in some institutions here in UAE ..maybe in some arab countries too , and Its not Islamic order ..



Back to topic ..mods wink

lord xyz
Originally posted by Fatima
Interesting ..I was reading about woman's status as seen in Christianity and Islam ..especially talking about covering her hair in Christianity..

I never saw Christian women wearing veil ?? confused ..only nuns


"Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God. Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head. And every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head...If a woman does not cover her head, she should have her hair cut off; and if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut or shaved off, she should cover her head"

1 Corrinthians 11:3-6


"I also want women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or expensive clothes, but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God"

1 Timothy 2:9-10

erm You know what I'm thinking about ! Yeah, we learn that in history lessons.

This argument works against Chrisians, but to us Atheists, we don't see how this makes Islam better.

Alfheim
Originally posted by Bardock42
Or...I just don't agree with the argument.

Ok talking about constructing a sentence was a bit wankerish, but in hindsight I can see why you got annoyed. I think she could have explained her last post more politely.

Originally posted by Bardock42

I mean...how many people got killed in the European Union in the last 30 years by someone a) wearing a Burkha and b) that didn't get caught because of wearing it?

Its not that simple. It because its a symbol of oppression and fundamentalism. Leoheart kinda explained the point better.

Originally posted by Bardock42

It's more of scare mongering, isn't it? Yes it is. By muslim haters like lil b, who, certainly has good reasons to dislike Islam, but goes too far often.

Well this is the thing like she said find out the reasons why France and over countries are banning it. I also from personal experience dont think its scaremongering.

Alliance
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
I support it for security reasons -

Well, at least the Vitamin D debacle is done.

Bardock42
Originally posted by Alfheim
Ok talking about constructing a sentence was a bit wankerish, but in hindsight I can see why you got annoyed. I think she could have explained her last post more politely.

Implying that I did not understand the most fundamental part of the argument wasn't though?


Originally posted by Alfheim
Its not that simple. It because its a symbol of oppression and fundamentalism. Leoheart kinda explained the point better.


But oppression and fundamentalism is wrong. Oppression as in "you are not allowed to wear your Burkha" for example.


Originally posted by Alfheim
Well this is the thing like she said find out the reasons why France and over countries are banning it. I also from personal experience dont think its scaremongering.

Why the **** is it my duty to research her argument. It's not like there's a site that says "Following are the reasons why France banned it".

And what would that personal experience be? Robbed by a woman in a Burkha?

2D_MASTER

lord xyz
Originally posted by Ushgarak
She's perfectly at liberty to say that her views are the same as France's ar the Netherlands', Bardock. She doesn't have to re-state them and they are available to research.

Meanwhile, your allegories are poor. It's unreasonable to dislike a person because he is homosexual. it is NOT unreasonable to be unsettled by someone with their face covered at interview. That's simply very basic. It's the same reason people wearing armed-robber style face masks would hardly make a good impression at interview.

Religious freedom does not overrule all other considerations, including common sense. I agree. They're perfectly fine to look like an idiot, but why can't anyone else?

Bardock42
Anyone notice how everyone suddenly vanished? Probably cause they had such an incredibly good argument they didn't even find the need to show it. Sounds reasonable.

Alfheim
Originally posted by Bardock42
Anyone notice how everyone suddenly vanished? Probably cause they had such an incredibly good argument they didn't even find the need to show it. Sounds reasonable.

E-er no I didnt even know you had responded to my post I just checked. Dont get it twisted.


Originally posted by Bardock42
Implying that I did not understand the most fundamental part of the argument wasn't though?

Er yeah I did say I could understand why you got pissed off. But I think its previous times as well when you have been a bit wankerish to. Anyway moving on.


Originally posted by Bardock42

But oppression and fundamentalism is wrong. Oppression as in "you are not allowed to wear your Burkha" for example.


Yeah so in an ideal world where there is no Islamic fundemantalism there would be no problem. Get it?


Originally posted by Bardock42

Why the **** is it my duty to research her argument. It's not like there's a site that says "Following are the reasons why France banned it".

C'mon now, yeah there probably is.

Originally posted by Bardock42

And what would that personal experience be? Robbed by a woman in a Burkha?

Er no its because its a symbol of oppression. Women Islam are forced to do things they dont want to do and from personal experience there is alot of stuff in the Islamic religion that muslim women dont like.

As I said before I think its reasonable that it should not be allowed in business meeting. I dont have a problem with burkhas as such its only the association.

Bardock42
Originally posted by Alfheim
E-er no I didnt even know you had responded to my post I just checked. Dont get it twisted.




Er yeah I did say I could understand why you got pissed off. But I think its previous times as well when you have been a bit wankerish to. Anyway moving on.





Yeah so in an ideal world where there is no Islamic fundemantalism there would be no problem. Get it?




C'mon now, yeah there probably is.



Er no its because its a symbol of oppression. Women Islam are forced to do things they dont want to do and from personal experience there is alot of stuff in the Islamic religion that muslim women dont like.

As I said before I think its reasonable that it should not be allowed in business meeting. I dont have a problem with burkhas as such its only the association. No you, Alfy...not you.

Calling me wankerish ont he other hand is the epitome of friendlyness? Not the least bit rude?

Yes, what I think is the problem is that you don't get it. You are against opression but think it would be best to support oppression in order to be against it. I doubt there is a direct link between terrorism and.....a woman wearing a burkha. So, you ban something in an apparently free country for no good reason.

But she ****ing started the argument, she should provide reasons. (Ush, I said "should", not "has to", kay?) It#s all very Starhawk if I may draw this comparison.

And they shouldn't be, but we, as free countries, should not ban it for everyone. What next? No Band T-Shirts? And I am sure there is, I wouldn't doubt that, but there are probably also women who want to wear one, why, by what right, do we not allow them to do it? WHAT RIGHT?

Business meetings are private, the government has about "**** NOTHING" to say what someone wears in a business meeting.

Well, I associate wearing a cross around your neck with the killing of millions of people over the year...wouldn't say they should be banned, what's your take? What about children that are forced to wear such a cross?

Alfheim
Originally posted by Bardock42
No you, Alfy...not you.

Ok its just when you said "Sounds reasonable to me", I thought you were refering to me amongst others because I used the same phrase.

Originally posted by Bardock42

Calling me wankerish ont he other hand is the epitome of friendlyness? Not the least bit rude?

Well thats why I put ish on the end. I thought it sounded more friendly but it doesnt.

Originally posted by Bardock42

Yes, what I think is the problem is that you don't get it. You are against opression but think it would be best to support oppression in order to be against it. I doubt there is a direct link between terrorism and.....a woman wearing a burkha. So, you ban something in an apparently free country for no good reason.

Ugh..I think I do get it, I just disagree.

Originally posted by Bardock42

But she ****ing started the argument, she should provide reasons. (Ush, I said "should", not "has to", kay?) It#s all very Starhawk if I may draw this comparison.

Anyway you know what I think you are right to be pissed anyway.

Originally posted by Bardock42

And they shouldn't be, but we, as free countries, should not ban it for everyone. What next? No Band T-Shirts? And I am sure there is, I wouldn't doubt that, but there are probably also women who want to wear one, why, by what right, do we not allow them to do it? WHAT RIGHT?

Business meetings are private, the government has about "**** NOTHING" to say what someone wears in a business meeting.

Well, I associate wearing a cross around your neck with the killing of millions of people over the year...wouldn't say they should be banned, what's your take?

Ok let me try and summarise what I think happened in France. From what I understand the French were actually bending over backwards to accomdate muslims. In society you have different people with different beliefs were not going to agree on everything so there is going to have to be some comprimise.

The reason why they banned it from what I understood was that the French were bending over backwards, but there were muslims who were not being considerate of other people. So the French thought **** it, your not having anything. In all fairness when I was muslim you didnt have the facilities in England that they had in France. I dont think the French are anti-muslim hell there are members of the PLO that live in Paris that would never happen in England.

I think due to the behaviour of some muslims people are scared of giving muslims too much freedom because they will state imposing themselves on everybody. I think this is what happened in France and I think muslims sometimes can have a tendency to do this.

Originally posted by Bardock42

What about children that are forced to wear such a cross?

Obvously its wrong.

Bardock42
Originally posted by Alfheim
Ok its just when you said "Sounds reasonable to me", I thought you were refering to me amongst others because I used the same phrase.

Well, i didn't think of you.


Originally posted by Alfheim
Well thats why I put ish on the end. I thought it sounded more friendly but it doesnt.
I don't mind, just saying it contradictory.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Ugh..I think I do get it, I just disagree.

Okay. Why?


Originally posted by Alfheim
Anyway you know what I think you are right to be pissed anyway.

Okay

Originally posted by Alfheim
Ok let me try and summarise what I think happened in France. From what I understand the French were actually bending over backwards to accomdate muslims. In society you have different people with different beliefs were not going to agree on everything so there is going to have to be some comprimise.

The reason why they banned it from what I understood was that the French were bending over backwards, but there were muslims who were not being considerate of other people. So the French thought **** it, your not having anything. In all fairness when I was muslim you didnt have the facilities in England that they had in France. I dont think the French are anti-muslim hell there are members of the PLO that live in Paris that would never happen in England.

I think due to the behaviour of some muslims people are scared of giving muslims too much freedom because they will state imposing themselves on everybody. I think this is what happened in France and I think muslims sometimes can have a tendency to do this.

Well, but doesn't that seem ridiculous? They start by bending over and then get annoyed and take more away? Wouldn't the middle way be the smartest? You don't have to get ****ed in the ass by any group of people, but you shouldn't take their freedoms (and your own, even if they aren't as important to you) away.


Originally posted by Alfheim
Obvously its wrong. Would you outlaw wearing crosses around your neck because of it?




Again, before Ush or lil b step in again, they should read what I really am saying. Not that they should be allowed to wear whatever they want in official buildings where security is important. Not in Banks (that are privately owned and that don't want their customers faces to be covered when they enter), but in their homes, on the streets and in private places where it is accepted.

lil bitchiness
Originally posted by Alliance
Well, at least the Vitamin D debacle is done.

It was never a debate on public level, in the first place. I found the article about Vitamin D by accident...then one ref lead to another.

lil bitchiness
Originally posted by Bardock42
Anyone notice how everyone suddenly vanished? Probably cause they had such an incredibly good argument they didn't even find the need to show it. Sounds reasonable.

Ahaha. Your argument is unfounded, ridiculous and repetitive. You didnt even know what burkha was, AND you didn't know which countries banned it.

Whats there to discuss with you?

I have essays to write, and go to work, I don't sit at my house, shitting my pants about what someone said on the internet, particulary if they were right.
If you were truly right, you woulnd't be in this thread still trying to convince everyone else.
Thats why you're still hovering around this thread.

I know I am right. I don't need your approval. I have evidence.

Your happiness equals winning the argument on the internet. Cringing.

Bardock42
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Ahaha. Your argument is unfounded, ridiculous and repetitive. You didnt even know what burkha was, AND you didn't know which countries banned it.

Whats there to discuss with you?

I have essays to write, and go to work, I don't sit at my house, shitting my pants about what someone said on the internet, particulary if they were right.
If you were truly right, you woulnd't be in this thread still trying to convince everyone else.
Thats why you're still hovering around this thread.

I know I am right. I don't need your approval. I have evidence.

Your happiness equals winning the argument on the internet. Cringing.

Are you an idiot or something? Why do you repeatedly state I don't know what a burkha is. And what has it got to do with ANYTHING who banned it. Stop being so incredibly childish it embarrasses both of us (only you)

About your PS, stop being a coward. If you don't want to address anything then don't. What's the point of writing paragraphs about saying how you don't have time to reply?

How are you right. Show it to me. Prove it. Don't be a lil Starhawk here.

And what kind of argument is that, I am arguing because there are people who have a stupid opinion and I try to convince them of what I think is correct. Why would I not do that if I was right. Did you just say that the whole Religion, Philosophy and GD forums are useless, since who is right would not agree?

And stop attacking me personally instead of addressing what I said.
So anyways shut up or reply like a good Mod ON TOPIC!

Alfheim
Originally posted by Bardock42
Well, i didn't think of you.

Ok


Originally posted by Bardock42

I don't mind, just saying it contradictory.

You're getting a meh for that...meh



Originally posted by Bardock42

Well, but doesn't that seem ridiculous? They start by bending over and then get annoyed and take more away? Wouldn't the middle way be the smartest? You don't have to get ****ed in the ass by any group of people, but you shouldn't take their freedoms (and your own, even if they aren't as important to you) away.

Not really no. Its known as taking the piss and when people take the piss they lose there privileges. Its like if im trying to be nice to you, you dont appreciate and try to take more from me instead of giving something back, im going to tell you to go to hell.

Like I said before if the French are so prejuidice, they would not have members of the PLO in France. Not saying wether I agree or disagree with that, im just pointing out they must be pretty liberal.


Originally posted by Bardock42

Would you outlaw wearing crosses around your neck because of it?


You know what maybe.


Originally posted by Bardock42

Again, before Ush or lil b step in again, they should read what I really am saying. Not that they should be allowed to wear whatever they want in official buildings where security is important. Not in Banks (that are privately owned and that don't want their customers faces to be covered when they enter), but in their homes, on the streets and in private places where it is accepted.

Well I would not ban it in their homes and their areas where it is accepted but I might ban it in public places.

Bardock42
Originally posted by Alfheim
Not really no. Its known as taking the piss and when people take the piss they lose there privileges. Its like if im trying to be nice to you, you dont appreciate and try to take more from me instead of giving something back, im going to tell you to go to hell.

Like I said before if the French are so prejuidice, they would not have members of the PLO in France. Not saying wether I agree or disagree with that, im just pointing out they must be pretty liberal.




You know what maybe.




Well I would not ban it in their homes and their areas where it is accepted but I might ban it in public places.

Yeah, but the government shouldn't suck up to them, they shouldn't persecute either though. It mean, what if you would want to wear a burkha? If there had been no muslims in your country why should it be banned? You lose freedoms for no apparent reason.


And why should it be banned in public (liek walking on the street)?

Alfheim
Originally posted by Bardock42
Yeah, but the government shouldn't suck up to them,

I dont think they were. I think the French are quite tolerant people. Hell look at the Frech footbal team their almost all black and arab, not like the english footbal team

Originally posted by Bardock42

they shouldn't persecute either though.

What so if you atke the piss yopu should not eb punished?

Originally posted by Bardock42

It mean, what if you would want to wear a burkha? If there had been no muslims in your country why should it be banned? You lose freedoms for no apparent reason.

Er come again.

Originally posted by Bardock42

And why should it be banned in public (liek walking on the street)?

Ok I said yes at first but now im saying no...not a happy no.

Bardock42
Originally posted by Alfheim
I dont think they were. I think the French are quite tolerant people. Hell look at the Frech footbal team their almost all black and arab, not like the english footbal team



What so if you atke the piss yopu should not eb punished?



Er come again.



Ok I said yes at first but now im saying no...not a happy no.

Don't see what that has got to do with it.


That is incredibly unfair though. It's not like all muslims behave badly. Why do you punish them?

No matter.

Well..then...don't we agree on the whole?

Alfheim
Originally posted by Bardock42
Don't see what that has got to do with it.


My point is if a patient person gets annoyed then you must have done something pretty bad. I dont think the French are normally intolerant, the thing about them is if you piss them off they react.

Originally posted by Bardock42

That is incredibly unfair though. It's not like all muslims behave badly. Why do you punish them?


Well theres still a significant majority. Something had to be done.

Originally posted by Bardock42

Well..then...don't we agree on the whole?

Yeah again roll eyes (sarcastic)

Bardock42
Originally posted by Alfheim
My point is if a patient person gets annoyed then you must have done something pretty bad. I dont think the French are normally intolerant, the thing about them is if you piss them off they react.



Well theres still a significant majority. Something had to be done.



Yeah again roll eyes (sarcastic)

Why are we discussing france? It's about whether it was reasonable that they did it I thought. Not if they had reasons, of course they had some reasons. But are those justified?

A significant majority of muslims that are trouble makers? Okay...not in Germany...you are sure of that?

Alfheim
Originally posted by Bardock42
Why are we discussing france?

C'mon now..its just an example of why somebody might ban the burkha. Thats what you do in debates you give examples.

Originally posted by Bardock42

It's about whether it was reasonable that they did it I thought. Not if they had reasons, of course they had some reasons. But are those justified?


I dont blame them. How would you feel if you tried to help somebody but they just slapped you in your face. Would you want to help that person?

Originally posted by Bardock42

A significant majority of muslims that are trouble makers? Okay...not in Germany...you are sure of that?

I dont know I dont live in Germany. I was a mulsim for 6 years in England and yeah there is a problem with fundamentalism and no I dont think they are all terrorists. Ive lived with lots of different muslims and I have alot of insight into how they think.

I dont want to say what I really think but being a muslim is alot more enlightining than knowing muslims or even living in a country where they exist.

Lets put it this way after being a muslim im less open minded than I was before I became one.

Bardock42
Originally posted by Alfheim
C'mon now..its just an example of why somebody might ban the burkha. Thats what you do in debates you give examples.



I dont blame them. How would you feel if you tried to help somebody but they just slapped you in your face. Would you want to help that person?



I dont know I dont live in Germany. I was a mulsim for 6 years in England and yeah there is a problem with fundamentalism and no I dont think they are all terrorists. Ive lived with lots of different muslims and I have alot of insight into how they think.

I dont want to say what I really think but being a muslim is alot more enlightining than knowing muslims or even living in a country where they exist.

Lets put it this way after being a muslim im less open minded than I was before I became one.

Yes, it is a reason. I just don't think it is a good one, do you think it is?

Dunno, I probably wouldn't punish them at least. And certainly not by taking something that I am dear off away.

I don't really care about muslims. I have no muslim friends, I could be the most bigoted ****....but, I believe in freedom. And there is no reason to take this particular one away.

Alfheim
Originally posted by Bardock42
Yes, it is a reason. I just don't think it is a good one, do you think it is?

Yeah I think it was. You might disagree with what they did but they have to do something. Furthermore one of the reasons why I say it is because I know how some muslims can be.

Originally posted by Bardock42

Dunno, I probably wouldn't punish them at least. And certainly not by taking something that I am dear off away.

Well, ok but you would have to do something?

Originally posted by Bardock42

I don't really care about muslims. I have no muslim friends, I could be the most bigoted ****....but, I believe in freedom.

Yeah you asked me wether im sure, I am simply giving you my creditianls. That was my point.

Originally posted by Bardock42

And there is no reason to take this particular one away.

Yes but what do you do when somebody takes the piss? Isnt there a tendency for people who take the piss to take things further. Maybe you would not have done what the French would have done but I think they were in the right mind to do what they did.

Bardock42
Originally posted by Alfheim
Yeah I think it was. You might disagree with what they did but they have to do something. Furthermore one of the reasons why I say it is because I know how some muslims can be.



Well, ok but you would have to do something?



Yeah you asked me wether im sure, I am simply giving you my creditianls. That was my point.



Yes but what do you do when somebody takes the piss? Isnt there a tendency for people who take the piss to take things further. Maybe you would not have done what the French would have done but I think they were in the right mind to do what they did.

How can they take the piss. Explain that to me please.

Alfheim
Originally posted by Bardock42
How can they take the piss. Explain that to me please.

When muslims want non-mulsims to act like muslims. To be fair I dont know the exact details of what happened but from my personal experiences have made me biased.

As I said before becoming a muslim has made me less open minded.

Bardock42
Originally posted by Alfheim
When muslims want non-mulsims to act like muslims. To be fair I dont know the exact details of what happened but from my personal experiences have made me biased.

As I said before becoming a muslim has made me less open minded. Well, but you have the right to not be open minded. How do you mean that anyways, make them behave like muslims? I know I never was forced to behave that way. To want it is hardly a crime.

Alfheim
Originally posted by Bardock42
Well, but you have the right to not be open minded. How do you mean that anyways, make them behave like muslims? I know I never was forced to behave that way. To want it is hardly a crime.

Well ok I dont know the exact details but from what I gathered they were like starting to bully other people.

Like I said how is a country that allows membere of the PLo to remain in their country going to get upset over a little thing like the hijab. They must have got really ticked off.

Bardock42
Originally posted by Alfheim
Well ok I dont know the exact details but from what I gathered they were like starting to bully other people.

Like I said how is a country that allows membere of the PLo to remain in their country going to get upset over a little thing like the hijab. They must have got really ticked off. But bullying other people is illegal.

Alfheim
Originally posted by Bardock42
But bullying other people is illegal.

????...whats your point? People harrass and bully people so if you try to stop it its wrong?

Bardock42
Originally posted by Alfheim
????...whats your point? People harrass and bully people so if you try to stop it its wrong? No. If you outlaw wearing Burkhas it is wrong. If you stop it that's alright.

Alfheim
Originally posted by Bardock42
No. If you outlaw wearing Burkhas it is wrong. If you stop it that's alright.

Well at any rate, maybe you dont ban burkhas but at any rate when you punish somebody it involves taking away their freedom. So you end up taking something else away.

Bardock42
Originally posted by Alfheim
Well at any rate, maybe you dont ban burkhas but at any rate when you punish somebody it involves taking away their freedom. So you end up taking something else away.

Yeah, but the offenders freedom. Not everyone's.

Alfheim
Originally posted by Bardock42
Yeah, but the offenders freedom. Not everyone's.

....well maybe they think that muslims in general have a problem....

Well anyway I guess so. Couldnt really careless about Abrahamic faiths in general.

Anyway I guess your right but when muslims stop doing things like stabbing film directors and protesting other relgious cartoons by calling people "dirty viking", then i'll be more sympathetic.

Bardock42
Originally posted by Alfheim
....well maybe they think that muslims in general have a problem....

Well anyway I guess so. Couldnt really careless about Abrahamic faiths in general.

Maybe they do.

But it is not about their faith. It is about general freedoms.

Alfheim
Originally posted by Bardock42
It is about general freedoms.

I did an edit. This aint gummie bear land. You dont wanna integrate you dont get the usual freedoms.

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