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I was reading some comments by Nicolas Sarkozy, who announced that he was against Turkey coming into EU, so I wondered -

Do you believe that Turkey should become EU member?
If yes, why? If not, why not?

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
I was reading some comments by Nicolas Sarkozy, who announced that he was against Turkey coming into EU, so I wondered -

Do you believe that Turkey should become EU member?
If yes, why? If not, why not?

Complicated issue on the one hand it would be good for the economy as their economy is the third fastest growing economy in the world, next to China and India.

They have a large and powerful army have a secular state so no real problems there.

The rights of Christians in the country however aren't really that good (or any other religious group) there are a lot of cultural differences, and people in western Europe just have a bad view about the Turks, because a lot of them that can't even fit in there move here. Of course that doesn't really make people want it and it would make them 'dislike' the Union even more.

Not to mention that with the recent unrest in Turkey it might not be a smart thing for the western governments to weaken the Turkish army's in it's power to protect the secular state.

I'm really not entirely sure on this issue yet. If we would look at Turkey compared to other member states then yes they should have been in already.

If we judge them like we should judge every state, then they still have some work to do. (recognize Cyprus, recognize Armenian genocide, more freedoms for other religions then the Muslim one). But Europe (especially Cyprus) would have to do a few things themselves as well, as we need Turkey about as much as they can use us.

So in short, I'm not sure.

I have a selfish reason for wanting them to join the EU. As my family own a property developing business which concentrates on Turkey. Turkey could really use the extra help to the economy and the tourism boost though.

Originally posted by Fishy
Complicated issue on the one hand it would be good for the economy as their economy is the third fastest growing economy in the world, next to China and India.

They have a large and powerful army have a secular state so no real problems there.

The rights of Christians in the country however aren't really that good (or any other religious group) there are a lot of cultural differences, and people in western Europe just have a bad view about the Turks, because a lot of them that can't even fit in there move here. Of course that doesn't really make people want it and it would make them 'dislike' the Union even more.

Not to mention that with the recent unrest in Turkey it might not be a smart thing for the western governments to weaken the Turkish army's in it's power to protect the secular state.

I'm really not entirely sure on this issue yet. If we would look at Turkey compared to other member states then yes they should have been in already.

If we judge them like we should judge every state, then they still have some work to do. (recognize Cyprus, recognize Armenian genocide, more freedoms for other religions then the Muslim one). But Europe (especially Cyprus) would have to do a few things themselves as well, as we need Turkey about as much as they can use us.

So in short, I'm not sure.

I think the Armenian and Cypriot issues, as well as right of minority religious groups need sorting out.

I think withdrawal of Turks from northen Cyprus should be one of the absolute musts in order to get into EU.

i love turkey on thanksgiving.schecter

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
I think the Armenian and Cypriot issues, as well as right of minority religious groups need sorting out.

I think withdrawal of Turks from northen Cyprus should be one of the absolute musts in order to get into EU.

Don't agree with that. The Turks have every right to be there, I do however think that they should acknowledge Cyprus, and that Cyprus should in return stop blockading Turkish Cyprus ports. The turks intervened in a massacre there, and if the people would feel like they want to join with Cyprus again then Turkey should allow it. If the people there don't then they shouldn't.

Great
another large bunch of quite probable muslim immigrants coming to a major UK city real soon
i hear the French and Germans aint happy either

Originally posted by vintageSW77
Great another large bunch of quite probable muslim immigrants coming to a major UK city real soon

Wow did you have use that film as a sig.......nice one.

take it how you want
its a smart little flick if you can find a cinema thats showing it
hence the picture

Originally posted by vintageSW77
take it how you want
its a smart little flick
hence the picture


Yeah I wanna see it actually. Its just quite funny how you said that statement with that sig.

ah but the picture featured is before the young lad links up with the mixed up racist father figure of the piece

Originally posted by vintageSW77
ah but the picture featured is before the young lad links up with the mixed up racist father figure of the piece

Yeah yeah yeah whatever. They all look the same to me.

Originally posted by Alfheim
They all look the same to me.

im tempted but i better not

Originally posted by vintageSW77
im tempted but i better not

Its a joke.....

same here

The skinheads in my family way back in the 80s were never racist
it was the ones who came in later who adopted the image and turned a smart look into one of that of a thug which is perfectly depicted in Meadows movie
a nice Ben Sherman,Harrington and a bit of Fred Perry is far more smart than the hooded top wanna be gansta look or the open university student circa 1976 look most kids and young adults go for today

back to the topic the French guy i work with has just told me that the majority of his freinds and relatives have always been opposed to Turkey joining the EU more than any other country as i quote "they are not a European country,they have a different culture and way of life" or something

they do nice kebabs though

Originally posted by vintageSW77
me too

Ok just checking. I thought of another one but it might be inappropriate

Originally posted by vintageSW77
Great
another large bunch of quite probable muslim immigrants coming to a major UK city real soon
i hear the French and Germans aint happy either

You do realize that most immigrant Turks aren't the kind of people that Turkey would want to keep in their country. They are usually mountain folk, from poorer parts of Turkey. Coming here hoping for a better live, most Turks in Turkey already have a good life, their economy is the third fastest growing in the world.

But your opinion is one of the main reasons I am opposed to Turkey joining the Union, I like the Union and want it to continue existing, allowing Turkey in now would definitely hurt the Union's reputation with the people even more then it has already been hurt.

at the moment i'd say no...Turkey is on the verge of being taken over by more radical islamic political ideals and there is alot of dissent about it. until they get their house in order they should be kept out of the EU

Originally posted by jaden101
at the moment i'd say no...Turkey is on the verge of being taken over by more radical islamic political ideals and there is alot of dissent about it. until they get their house in order they should be kept out of the EU

Well it would never happen that fast, they couldn't possibly get in today or tomorrow, and with the strong movements against a religious president I think it will be unlikely that one is going to be elected. Besides the army would just remove him from power anyways.

Which is a good reason to not let Turkey into the Union yet, the EU would never agree with a democratic government being overthrown by the military even if it would support their own side (at least not publicly).

Originally posted by Fishy
Don't agree with that. The Turks have every right to be there, I do however think that they should acknowledge Cyprus, and that Cyprus should in return stop blockading Turkish Cyprus ports. The turks intervened in a massacre there, and if the people would feel like they want to join with Cyprus again then Turkey should allow it. If the people there don't then they shouldn't.

Turkish military needs to pull out and has ZERO right to be there. Turks are occupying Cyprus calling it Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus, also recognised by Pakistan, so they have no right to be there.

People as people are fine, but we are not talking about that.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Turkish military needs to pull out and has ZERO right to be there. Turks are occupying Cyprus calling it Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus, also recognised by Pakistan, so they have no right to be there.

People as people are fine, but we are not talking about that.

They got in there because the Greeks were killing Turkish people, now they could have left right after that, but who would have kept the people safe? The result is what we have now, and I think it's up to the people of Northern Cyprus to decide for themselves.

But there should at the very least be a removal of the border controls. Open the borders between the two places, make Cyprus remove it's trade embargo and make them open the ports in the north and eventually you can perhaps get the people united again by voting.

But I can see why you would think the Turkish army has no right to be there anymore, and I can somewhat agree with it, even so it makes no difference. We can't ask the Turks to just get up and retreat, they won't. We would need to work on a realistic solution and that would require concessions from both sides.

Bullcrap. Just like Kosovo situation.

Turkey took advantage of Greece's political problems, and announced peace-keeping operation to restore the constitutional order in Cyprus.
Invaded, then killed, expelled and torched Cypriot homes, and then called it Turkish land.

Peace keeping does not equal occupying than claiming other people's land.

Next thing i'll behearing from you is Armenian genocide is made up by Turk-haters.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Bullcrap. Just like Kosovo situation.

Turkey took advantage of Greece's political problems, and announced peace-keeping operation to restore the constitutional order in Cyprus.
Invaded, then killed, expelled and torched Cypriot homes, and then called it Turkish land.

Peace keeping does not equal occupying than claiming other people's land.

Next thing i'll behearing from you is Armenian genocide is made up by Turk-haters.

No, and that has nothing to do with this. I actually said that the Armenian genocide is an important issue on my first post.

Still it are the Turks who are in mass graves on Cyprus, and it was the Greek Militia backed by Greece that started the first real attack after riots. And you are right peace keeping does not equal occupying other people's land, that's why I suggested a democratic solution to the problem, let people vote. Remove the borders anyway and let the people live together no matter what the outcome of the vote. And Cyprus should remove the blockades right away at the same time Turkey should recognize Cyprus as a country as well.

my vote is biased cuz im Armenian. so No.

My vote is biased because the thought of a Muslim Europe upsets me.

Hmm my view is mixed on this one, hot topic at our uni though. In the short term future Turkey should continue to improve its treatment of political, religious and ethnic minorities in its country.

It should also, along with Greece and Cyprus try to work out some kind of arrangement for Cyprus. Whatever that arrangement may be there should be no forces (from either side) left on Cyprus (except maybe international or EU peace keepers) This means that Turkey will have to recognize Greece.

If those criteria are met I think Turkey should be allowed to join the EU, although that will take quite a while.

However, more realistically I don't think Turkey should join too soon. The Union needs to deal with the problems of the last expansion. Only then can it start thinking about countries like Turkey and Croatia. But I don't see the council reaching consensus about Turkey anytime soon. Croatia has a far better chance of joining in my book.

Originally posted by Fire
Hmm my view is mixed on this one, hot topic at our uni though. In the short term future Turkey should continue to improve its treatment of political, religious and ethnic minorities in its country.

It should also, along with Greece and Cyprus try to work out some kind of arrangement for Cyprus. Whatever that arrangement may be there should be no forces (from either side) left on Cyprus (except maybe international or EU peace keepers) This means that Turkey will have to recognize Greece.

If those criteria are met I think Turkey should be allowed to join the EU, although that will take quite a while.

However, more realistically I don't think Turkey should join too soon. The Union needs to deal with the problems of the last expansion. Only then can it start thinking about countries like Turkey and Croatia. But I don't see the council reaching consensus about Turkey anytime soon. Croatia has a far better chance of joining in my book.

Turkey already recognizes Greece it's Cyprus that's the problem... But you probably meant that, so never mind.

And Croatia might join the Union sooner but you have to wonder if something like that is what we want. Country's like Spain were helped greatly by the European Union but accepting in more country's in the Union that can't meet our economical demands might not be a good idea. Besides with the recent way Poland is going in female and gay rights it might not have been a good idea at all. Some country's just aren't ready.

Sooo...it's about picking and choosing which countries can be allowed?...I don't see this as a European Union. It looks more like a "Elite Union" to me.

Turkey isn't even in Europe. I think it should be excluded just because of that ermm

Originally posted by Strangelove
Turkey isn't even in Europe. I think it should be excluded just because of that ermm

Half of it is.

I see

Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
Sooo...it's about picking and choosing which countries can be allowed?...I don't see this as a European Union. It looks more like a "Elite Union" to me.

If a country would be harmed or would harm the Union, then it's their full right to deny them access.

I don't see any reason why Turkey should be barred from entering the EU.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Cyprus

The UK is in Iraq illegally...so, whats your point.

Originally posted by Alliance
I don't see any reason why Turkey should be barred from entering the EU.



The UK is in Iraq illegally...so, whats your point. Well since the U.S. and Turkey appear to be two separate countries on two separate continents, it's similar yet unrelated.

Or were you being rhetorical?

Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
Sooo...it's about picking and choosing which countries can be allowed?...I don't see this as a European Union. It looks more like a "Elite Union" to me.

The European union is at first an economical union which expanded into a union where country's that think alike work together to create a stronger economy and become more effective in area's like law enforcement. Currently the also work together on foreign affairs some country's want a united European army and much more.

The union however although named European is not a club for all European country's. We don't want all of Europe in the union. Of course the Union wants a lot of country's to join, makes them more powerful and creates a better chance to make an impact on the world and it could be great for the economy. That doesn't mean however that they should just accept any country because it happens to be in Europe, that would only end up hurting.

Originally posted by Fishy
Turkey already recognizes Greece it's Cyprus that's the problem... But you probably meant that, so never mind.

And Croatia might join the Union sooner but you have to wonder if something like that is what we want. Country's like Spain were helped greatly by the European Union but accepting in more country's in the Union that can't meet our economical demands might not be a good idea. Besides with the recent way Poland is going in female and gay rights it might not have been a good idea at all. Some country's just aren't ready.

Agreed Croatia has a long way to go, don't get me wrong I'm not advocating we should allow Croatia to join any time soon. As I said before the Union needs to deal with the problems of the last expansion before accepting any new members.

I agree with you that there are several countries that have some policies and views I don't consider very EU like. But then again as you said the EU still is first and for most an economic union.

It'll take a while before the EU gets rid of the trouble caused by the last expansion, but I think it'll work out in the end.

About Turkey being in Europe only a small part of Turkey is in Europe, but a small part is enough. The Union isn't an elite union in my book. Yes we set qualifications that have to be met before a country can join, but almost every intergovernmental organization does that.

Originally posted by Fire
Agreed Croatia has a long way to go, don't get me wrong I'm not advocating we should allow Croatia to join any time soon. As I said before the Union needs to deal with the problems of the last expansion before accepting any new members.

I agree with you that there are several countries that have some policies and views I don't consider very EU like. But then again as you said the EU still is first and for most an economic union.

It'll take a while before the EU gets rid of the trouble caused by the last expansion, but I think it'll work out in the end.

About Turkey being in Europe only a small part of Turkey is in Europe, but a small part is enough. The Union isn't an elite union in my book. Yes we set qualifications that have to be met before a country can join, but almost every intergovernmental organization does that.

Agreed, accept for that economical union part. The EU was founded as such but has long ago moved away from that. It's no longer just an economical union and all it's members should treat all it's citizens equally and have the basic freedoms that any nation should have. I'm not saying all should allow abortion, euthanasia and gay marriage although that would be good of them. But they should at least respect people that are gay, people that had abortions outside of their own country borders. Their constant disrespect of common values elsewhere in the Union is just annoying and should really change.

Poland is pretty much ruled by a religious club and that just can't be good for a Union that wants to work together on every field there is economical, social, and military.

True, but not much you can do about it. As you undoubtedly know most, and de facto almost all, EU legislation is decided by consensus in the council. This means that Poland or any other country can veto EU legislation about abortion, same sex marriage euthanasia and what not.
Polish nationals can however sue the Polish government based on the European Declaration for Human Rights, which Poland has had to accept. It says that discrimination based on Sexual preference is illegal.

Originally posted by Fire
True, but not much you can do about it. As you undoubtedly know most, and de facto almost all, EU legislation is decided by consensus in the council. This means that Poland or any other country can veto EU legislation about abortion, same sex marriage euthanasia and what not.
Polish nationals can however sue the Polish government based on the European Declaration for Human Rights, which Poland has had to accept. It says that discrimination based on Sexual preference is illegal.

I know that, and I seriously think that somebody should sue Poland... Their government is to religious and in my opinion breaking with basic human rights that they as you said had to accept. I just find it really strange that the Union just lets all of that happen and doesn't complain at all.

Originally posted by Alliance
I don't see any reason why Turkey should be barred from entering the EU.



The UK is in Iraq illegally...so, whats your point.

Read some history, will you? Maybe starting from Ottoman Empire. Your comments, like this one, are giving me a nose bleed.

Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
Sooo...it's about picking and choosing which countries can be allowed?...I don't see this as a European Union. It looks more like a "Elite Union" to me.

So I guess you wouldn't think twice as to whom you will open your borders to?

Originally posted by Fishy
No, and that has nothing to do with this. I actually said that the Armenian genocide is an important issue on my first post.

Still it are the Turks who are in mass graves on Cyprus, and it was the Greek Militia backed by Greece that started the first real attack after riots. And you are right peace keeping does not equal occupying other people's land, that's why I suggested a democratic solution to the problem, let people vote. Remove the borders anyway and let the people live together no matter what the outcome of the vote. And Cyprus should remove the blockades right away at the same time Turkey should recognize Cyprus as a country as well.

Which mass graves?


....

I don't think UK should be in the EU at all, but that is my personal thought. Turkey should get into EU, at some point. As soon as it stops calling part of Cyprus, ''Turkish Republic of Northen Cyprus'', recognizes Armenian genocide, and stops death penalty (if it has not already), and also more rights for the religious non-muslim minorities.


However, as I mention in the first post, Nicolas Sarkozy, sad that he does not believe Turkey should be in the EU, ever. He said something along the lines of ''If we border with Iran, should be make Iran join EU too?''

Is that fair enough? Or is that little far fetched from Nicolas Sarkozy?

Originally posted by lil bitchiness

Which mass graves?



http://www.geocities.com/t_volunteer/cyprus/photo6.htm

It's a very biased site, at least on first impression but their photo's are still real.




Completely agree, I just think that Cyprus especially and even the EU in general should do something in return. Blockading Turkish trading and Cyprus vetoing everything that could help the Turks when they can isn't really helping the situation.



It's an idiotic statement but it gets him votes, so he's smart for making it. Turkey unlike Iran actually has parts in Europe, Turkey unlike Iran is a secular state and Turkey unlike Iran has a relatively stable country with a growing economy.

Turkey isn't ready at this moment in time, but excluding them forever is just limiting the power of the EU, and stupid. I do think he realizes that, but he probably thinks that saying things like that will make him popular now, can get him votes now and he knows that by the time Turkey is ready to join the EU things will have changed enough for him to get back on his statement or he that is he already gone from office.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Read some history, will you? Maybe starting from Ottoman Empire. Your comments, like this one, are giving me a nose bleed.

Maybe you simply can't stand to have a majority Muslim nation near Europe? Your Islam bashing has probably clogged all my synapses and made me a drone.


Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Is that fair enough? Or is that little far fetched from Nicolas Sarkozy? Of course its far fetchted...but hes not Le Pen (not yet)....and France seems to be all about electing conservatives these days.

Originally posted by Fishy
It's an idiotic statement but it gets him votes, so he's smart for making it. Turkey unlike Iran actually has parts in Europe, Turkey unlike Iran is a secular state and Turkey unlike Iran has a relatively stable country with a growing economy.

Turkey isn't ready at this moment in time, but excluding them forever is just limiting the power of the EU, and stupid. I do think he realizes that, but he probably thinks that saying things like that will make him popular now, can get him votes now and he knows that by the time Turkey is ready to join the EU things will have changed enough for him to get back on his statement or he that is he already gone from office.

I agree with Fishy Sarkozy just wanted to cash in electorally on the situation in France last summer. Too bad it actually worked.

Originally posted by Fire
I agree with Fishy Sarkozy just wanted to cast in electorally on the situation in France last summer. Too bad it actually worked.

I'm not to sure about that, Royal didn't really seem like a good alternative really. Of course this situation can never help relations between Turkey and Europe but as long as Sarkozy is willing to improve relations with Turkey and increase our economical partnership then that can eventually lead to them joining the Union anyway.

you're right Royal didn't give a decent alternative. But anything would have been better than Sarkozy's right wing agenda.

Still, Sarkozy isn't going to get very far badmouthing Turkey's EU bid knowing the importance of that topic in Turkey.

Originally posted by Fire
you're right Royal didn't give a decent alternative. But anything would have been better than Sarkozy's right wing agenda.

Economically this is the best for France at least... Socially speaking I don't know. I know the problems in France have gotten far to far, and they need somebody tough to handle the situation instead of ignoring it. I don't know enough about Sarkozy his plans to know if he can actually fix this though. If he really just wants to beat up rioters and throw them out of the country then he still won't achieve shit. Except for being a moron.

I hope he is willing to invest in all of those people that have it hard now and is willing to give them good schooling and try to create more jobs there, if he wants to be hard on those that still don't take their chances then and screw up anyways that's fine with me. As long as he creates the chances first.

Originally posted by Alliance
Still, Sarkozy isn't going to get very far badmouthing Turkey's EU bid knowing the importance of that topic in Turkey.

He doesn't really care about Turkey.. His primary interest is the power in France, and he has that now. I do think he will moderate his tone now though and try to get closer to the Turks he has said he wants to work in many area's with them, just not let them join the Union. Turkey won't like this, and the people will stop liking the EU even more then they already have. It can however in the future lead to Turkey joining the Union. Economical partnership is after all the reason the Union was created in the first place.

It's the later part I fear. But that's probably my socialistic reflex.

Alliance what do you mean exactly?

Originally posted by Fire
It's the later part I fear. But that's probably my socialistic reflex.

Alliance what do you mean exactly?

I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt at the moment, I'll just wait and see... At least the riots after he was elected weren't committed by poor foreigners, but instead by left winged extremists/communists/anarchists, that's a good sign already.

It shows that the people that were against him most accepted the democracy and are willing to let him do what he thinks needs to be done. If he would just show him that their trust in him is deserved then perhaps this entire situation can turn out the right way... But we'll just have to wait and see...

Originally posted by Fishy
He doesn't really care about Turkey.. His primary interest is the power in France

I know, and this answers fire too, he may say sh*t like this for political reasons, but people actually take offense to it. The EU requires some sort of supranationalist thinking to be maintained. If all that interests him is political power in France, he should not be President of an EU nation.

Using the US as an example, if a president is campaigning in Chicago and badmouths how dirty and slimy New York is, He may win votes in Chicago, but he's going to lose votes in New York. Since the preseident actually has a role in governing both if he's elected, he's not doing anyone favors except himself.

Its not a DIRECT comparison, but I feel it has important similarities.

Originally posted by Alliance
I know, and this answers fire too, he may say sh*t like this for political reasons, but people actually take offense to it. The EU requires some sort of supranationalist thinking to be maintained. If all that interests him is political power in France, he should not be President of an EU nation.

Using the US as an example, if a president is campaigning in Chicago and badmouths how dirty and slimy New York is, He may win votes in Chicago, but he's going to lose votes in New York. Since the preseident actually has a role in governing both if he's elected, he's not doing anyone favors except himself.

Its not a DIRECT comparison, but I feel it has important similarities.

Well they have some, but not really a like.

Sarkozy is the president of France, he does what he thinks is best for France he however also wants to invest in Europe and has said so already. He has made plans for improving French relations with Europe, and he is definitely more pro-Europe, pro-America then most Frenchman.

Of course somebody like him wouldn't do real good at the negotiating tables for Turkey to join the Union. However he has said he is willing to work better with Turkey then we are doing now. I believe the same thing was said by either Blair or Merkel not entirely sure...

This will still benefit relations and get Turkey in eventually. Of course it might hurt the relations at first, but I think we can all agree that Turkey won't join any time soon anyway. And if both sides are willing to look at the longer run for the EU membership status and the immediate future for improved trading we should be able to accomplish a lot.

Ok...not the best analogy...but you got my point...I wanted to add an addendum to my post about how my analogy sucked, but I didn't want to burn my quesadilla.

Originally posted by Alliance
Ok...not the best analogy...but you got my point...I wanted to add an addendum to my post about how my analogy sucked, but I didn't want to burn my quesadilla.

Yeah I get your point...

NO!! maybe in time, europe is growing to quickly and the standard of living is being pulled down by these backwater countries

Far fetched. Iran has never had any claims to Europe.

Originally posted by Alliance
I know, and this answers fire too, he may say sh*t like this for political reasons, but people actually take offense to it. The EU requires some sort of supranationalist thinking to be maintained. If all that interests him is political power in France, he should not be President of an EU nation.

Using the US as an example, if a president is campaigning in Chicago and badmouths how dirty and slimy New York is, He may win votes in Chicago, but he's going to lose votes in New York. Since the preseident actually has a role in governing both if he's elected, he's not doing anyone favors except himself.

Its not a DIRECT comparison, but I feel it has important similarities.

As you said yourself your comparison is flawed in a number of ways.

A) you can't compare the US with the EU in this way. The US forms one nation, one which has a high degree of federalization, where as the EU is a Union. Yes it is partly supranationalistic, but in the end it still is a union of sovereign and independent states.

B) Because of point A Sarkozy doesn't have to care about what people in Spain, Bulgaria, Poland, Holland or wherever think of him. They can't vote for him anyway. There are enough countries who have elected leaders with anti-european programs before. It's sad but it happens.

C) Turkey is not a part of the EU anyway. So even if all Europeans where allowed to vote for him he wouldn't be bad mounting people within the union. Although many wouldn't like it.

In conclusion: God knows I'd love nothing more than to see the European Union become more of nation and less of a union. With direct elections for a European president and stuff, but it just ain't gonna happen any time soon.

PS: I'm not as optimistic about Sarkozy as Fishy is. However he did score points with me for nominating an experienced socialist as secretary of state.

After reading up about the US House of Representatives I think that could make for a better comparison.

Originally posted by Fishy
http://www.geocities.com/t_volunteer/cyprus/photo6.htm

It's a very biased site, at least on first impression but their photo's are still real.




Completely agree, I just think that Cyprus especially and even the EU in general should do something in return. Blockading Turkish trading and Cyprus vetoing everything that could help the Turks when they can isn't really helping the situation.



It's an idiotic statement but it gets him votes, so he's smart for making it. Turkey unlike Iran actually has parts in Europe, Turkey unlike Iran is a secular state and Turkey unlike Iran has a relatively stable country with a growing economy.

Turkey isn't ready at this moment in time, but excluding them forever is just limiting the power of the EU, and stupid. I do think he realizes that, but he probably thinks that saying things like that will make him popular now, can get him votes now and he knows that by the time Turkey is ready to join the EU things will have changed enough for him to get back on his statement or he that is he already gone from office.

He is a tiny bit off for me, Sarkozy is, I don't know why. Its too early to judge him, but I am not as enthusiastic about him at all.

What some people in France gave impression is that one of the reasons he was voted was because ''there was no other good option'' and ''he is brutally honest''.

I do suspect when the time comes, France might generally oppose turkey into EU, regardless whos at the top - although I could be mistaken.

Does anyone know how the Turkish people generally feel in regards to EU, and if they want in?

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
He is a tiny bit off for me, Sarkozy is, I don't know why. Its too early to judge him, but I am not as enthusiastic about him at all.

What some people in France gave impression is that one of the reasons he was voted was because ''there was no other good option'' and ''he is brutally honest''.

I do suspect when the time comes, France might generally oppose turkey into EU, regardless whos at the top - although I could be mistaken.

Does anyone know how the Turkish people generally feel in regards to EU, and if they want in?

At the moment no French politician could vote for Turkey in the union. It would cost them to much vote's, so you are right it would take a lot of time before France would say yes to Turkey in the union.

As for the Turks themselves, I'm not sure the news here reports that the enthusiasm amongst them is dropping rapidly. A few years ago almost all of them wanted to join the Union now only half still really wants too and most of them are not to happy about their chances... All this crap about Turkey joining the Union and the problems it's causing certainly isn't making the EU popular in Turkey.

Europe fought to keep the Ottomans out ; why let them in now ??

Originally posted by GCG
Europe fought to keep the Ottomans out ; why let them in now ??

Because they aren't the Ottomans anymore, and this logic sucks.

Do you know how often France and England fought? England and Germany? France and Germany? All of Europe and Germany? Eastern Balkan states against each other?

Wars have always plagued Europe, the last mayor we were in was started in Europe, by a European country... The head of the EU at the moment is the country that started the entire war. I don't think we should really care about that anymore.

Originally posted by Fishy
Because they aren't the Ottomans anymore, and this logic sucks.

Do you know how often France and England fought? England and Germany? France and Germany? All of Europe and Germany? Eastern Balkan states against each other?

Wars have always plagued Europe, the last mayor we were in was started in Europe, by a European country... The head of the EU at the moment is the country that started the entire war. I don't think we should really care about that anymore.

However they invaded Cyprus, as their predecessing Ottoman ancestors had done in the past and their occupation is temed as illegal by the UN.
They still have an ancestory mentality over there.

Originally posted by GCG
However they invaded Cyprus, as their predecessing Ottoman ancestors had done in the past and their occupation is temed as illegal by the UN.
They still have an ancestory mentality over there.

Cyprus matter is of course an important thing and it should be solved before they join the EU. We shouldn't however say they could never join the EU just because they once tried to invade it.

Originally posted by Fishy
Cyprus matter is of course an important thing and it should be solved before they join the EU. We shouldn't however say they could never join the EU just because they once tried to invade it.

Now if there is no resolve, should membership be consented??

Originally posted by GCG
Now if there is no resolve, should membership be consented??

No, you can't become a member of the European Union if you don't even recognize the other members of the Union. Besides Cyprus has a veto right so they can veto it even if the other 24 states would agree with it.

So if that is the greatest hurdle, what should Ankara propose to be an eligible candidate?

Originally posted by Fishy
The EU should in the mean time remove laws that make ignoring genocides illegal, as it pisses of a lot of Turks.
I agree with what you said, but I don't agree with this statement.
Why should we (or some countries cause I don't think its an EU directive to make negationism illegal) change our laws because they might upset the Turks? We've also legalized abortion and same sex marriage which Poland doesn't agree with, we didn't roll back those laws or rights for Poland to join.

I can understand that you think Europe should give something as well but if that's the price for Turkey getting into the union then I don't want it in the union!

Originally posted by Fire
I agree with what you said, but I don't agree with this statement.
Why should we (or some countries cause I don't think its an EU directive to make negationism illegal) change our laws because they might upset the Turks? We've also legalized abortion and same sex marriage which Poland doesn't agree with, we didn't roll back those laws or rights for Poland to join.

I can understand that you think Europe should give something as well but if that's the price for Turkey getting into the union then I don't want it in the union!

Yeah your right, I just didn't really look at it like that. What I said was kind of because of personal reasons. I just the law is stupid, you are right Europe shouldn't be forced to say that. I just really think a law limiting our freedom of speech is ridiculously stupid even when it comes to matters like this. I can understand the holocaust but I think that is stupid already, I can't understand the other genocides in history. Some of them are still debated, and with laws like this that debate is suddenly killed.

So I might have been otherwise motivated when I said that, forget about it. It doesn't have to be removed because of Turkey although it would be nice.

Originally posted by Fire
I agree with what you said, but I don't agree with this statement.
Why should we (or some countries cause I don't think its an EU directive to make negationism illegal) change our laws because they might upset the Turks? We've also legalized abortion and same sex marriage which Poland doesn't agree with, we didn't roll back those laws or rights for Poland to join.

I can understand that you think Europe should give something as well but if that's the price for Turkey getting into the union then I don't want it in the union!

Well, the EU should revisit that law generally, though I agree that they should not do it to appease a nation might join. I mean...it's the EU that makes the rules, not the outside nations

Originally posted by Fire
I agree with what you said, but I don't agree with this statement.
Why should we (or some countries cause I don't think its an EU directive to make negationism illegal) change our laws because they might upset the Turks? We've also legalized abortion and same sex marriage which Poland doesn't agree with, we didn't roll back those laws or rights for Poland to join.

I can understand that you think Europe should give something as well but if that's the price for Turkey getting into the union then I don't want it in the union!

Poland does not agree with abortions? Are you sure?

I never pictured Poland as being so religiously influenced...for some reason.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Poland does not agree with abortions? Are you sure?

I never pictured Poland as being so religiously influenced...for some reason.

I thought they are very. But it is based on one or two documentaries I have seen some time ago.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Poland does not agree with abortions? Are you sure?

I never pictured Poland as being so religiously influenced...for some reason.

Poland is about as close as you can come to a theocracy in Europe outside of Vatican City.

Their minister of education recently said that gays should not be allowed to teach because those people might make their children gay. At the same time a law was passed forbidding gay propaganda in schools. Basically meaning that any book that makes gay look normal was removed from schools.

Amnesty international recently protested against the way it's going in Poland and the European court for human rights recently even told Poland to stop acting the way they did because it was breaking the international human rights law.

Their government is a religious orientated one, they wanted to put God in the European constitution and basically make all laws and decisions with the bible in their hands.

What the...?

Weird. I knew Poland is Catholic, but so were many other countries, and I never for a second thought (nor looked into, to be honest) Poland as being somewhat bit 'fundamental' in that retrospect.

I wonder if they have some strange laws over there in regards to Bible type laws.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
What the...?

Weird. I knew Poland is Catholic, but so were many other countries, and I never for a second thought (nor looked into, to be honest) Poland as being somewhat bit 'fundamental' in that retrospect.

I wonder if they have some strange laws over there in regards to Bible type laws.

I was quite surprised as well, but it was on the news a lot here lately... Lot's of people pissed of over here because of the Polish government...

Another reason not to have turks on europe is that stabbing rate would go up.

Germany has a large Turk population, we know.

Originally posted by Bicnarok
Another reason not to have turks on europe is that stabbing rate would go up.

The who in the what now?

Originally posted by Fishy
Poland is about as close as you can come to a theocracy in Europe outside of Vatican City.

Their minister of education recently said that gays should not be allowed to teach because those people might make their children gay. At the same time a law was passed forbidding gay propaganda in schools. Basically meaning that any book that makes gay look normal was removed from schools.

Amnesty international recently protested against the way it's going in Poland and the European court for human rights recently even told Poland to stop acting the way they did because it was breaking the international human rights law.

Their government is a religious orientated one, they wanted to put God in the European constitution and basically make all laws and decisions with the bible in their hands.

didn't Poland just pass a law that recognized Jesus Christ as their head of state? I remember something on the BBC about it...

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Germany has a large Turk population, we know. That is true, what were you replying to though?Originally posted by Bicnarok
Another reason not to have turks on europe is that stabbing rate would go up. Bigotry?

Originally posted by inimalist
didn't Poland just pass a law that recognized Jesus Christ as their head of state? I remember something on the BBC about it...

Now that you mention it I do remember them (I think) trying to pass a law like this. Making Jesus king of Poland, don't know if they actually went through with it or not though...

If they did then that would be pretty stupid because it would basically make the pope ruler of Poland, seeing as most of the Polish people are roman catholic and believe that the Pope is the voice of Jesus on earth.

I just can't for the life of me remember if Jesus is the official head of state or if it was just a law that they wanted to pass.

Lil I'm not one hundred percent sure, but Fishy gets the point. Poland is by far the most Catholic country in the union at this moment. Maybe not in the amount of Christians but in the amount of power they wield in government.

After a small looking up I found a few things. Abortion isn't totally illegal but still not as legal as it is over here.

"Under the current law, a pregnancy can be terminated only if the mother's life is in danger, if she was raped, or the embryo has grave defects. Doctors can face up to three years in prison if they are caught performing illegal abortions" (BBC)

"A Polish woman who was refused an abortion despite warnings that having a baby could make her blind is taking her case to Europe's human rights court." (BBC)

"The U.N.'s Human Rights Committee said in a review of Poland's civil and political rights that even women who were legally allowed abortions did not seem to be able to find hospitals willing to carry them out. "The Committee reiterated its deep concern about restrictive laws in Poland, which might incite women to seek unsafe, illegal abortions, with attendant risks to their life and health," last week's report said." (About.com)

I think these bits proof my point.

That will do you a fat load of good, abortions are legal just impossible to get.

And the religious right wing nuts want to make it even stricter

Originally posted by Fire
And the religious right wing nuts want to make it even stricter

Yeah I know the current Polish government really isn't doing a lot of good for (religious) freedom.

I think if the EU want to be big players in the future world, they should let turkey in. Turkey's economy is growing rapidly, would probably surpass western europe before 2050. With potential superpowers like India and China, I think it would benefit the EU more in the long run. Of course Turkey needs to sort out its human rights stuff, and the EU will probably let the balkan countries in before turkey. It may not join in soon, but i think it will in the 2020s.