Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

So, I dunno if it warrants a thread, but I'm making one to deal with this issue because it's been bugging me.

I've heard continuous comments about how Apocalypse' telepathy is oh so much superior to well known telepaths like Xavier and co. Something about a mindrape? I dunno.

I'm not saying it's not- it could very well be. I'd just like to be able to firmly place it at one level or another. Thus far, the evidence supporting any placement has been... questionable, at best.

BTW, I made the thread in this forum for a reason. I'd like a discussion, not an endless argument/featwar/fanboy battle.

So... IYO, how could of a telepath is Apocalypse?

Below Jonn.

Originally posted by Martian_mind
Below Jonn.

Who cares...

He's got a couple of feats that put him at least on par with a non-jobbing Xavier.

Mental control of celestial tech.
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y37/Nightmareman95/Apoctech.png

Apocalypse telekinetically raising his palace from under the ground
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y37/Nightmareman95/palacerise.png

A weakened Apocalypse punks Jean Grey (Phoenix!) psionically.
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y37/Nightmareman95/psionic53.png

Mindrapes Xavier.
http://static.mojefotke.si/1ddaf62cdef62ccb2b33fc87e80c52a32887b5f7.JPG

Apocalypse takes a full telekinetic blast from Exodus with no effect, and blasts Exodus away. Apocalypse also creates a force field able to hold and even pre-powerdown Exodus.
http://img242.imageshack.us/img242/1774/exodusorigin13kw0.jpg
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y37/Nightmareman95/powers18.png

Apocalypse mind controlled the Inhuman population including the Dark Riders. Especially good, because Psynapse (one of the inhumans) is a very powerful psychic, with his own section of the astral plane
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y37/Nightmareman95/apocmindconrol.png

Exactly how good he is, I'm not sure. But he's at least on par with guys like Xavier, Exodus, and others. But below Onslaught, Nate Grey, and Jesus Cable.

Care to post scans?

Such as?

Scans are now posted. I edited them into my post.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
He's got a couple of feats that put him at least on par with a non-jobbing Xavier.

Mental control of celestial tech.
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y37/Nightmareman95/Apoctech.png

Apocalypse telekinetically raising his palace from under the ground
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y37/Nightmareman95/palacerise.png

A weakened Apocalypse punks Jean Grey (Phoenix!) psionically.
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y37/Nightmareman95/psionic53.png

Mindrapes Xavier.
http://static.mojefotke.si/1ddaf62cdef62ccb2b33fc87e80c52a32887b5f7.JPG

Apocalypse takes a full telekinetic blast from Exodus with no effect, and blasts Exodus away. Apocalypse also creates a force field able to hold and even pre-powerdown Exodus.
http://img242.imageshack.us/img242/1774/exodusorigin13kw0.jpg
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y37/Nightmareman95/powers18.png

Apocalypse mind controlled the Inhuman population including the Dark Riders. Especially good, because Psynapse (one of the inhumans) is a very powerful psychic, with his own section of the astral plane
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y37/Nightmareman95/apocmindconrol.png

Exactly how good he is, I'm not sure. But he's at least on par with guys like Xavier, Exodus, and others. But below Onslaught, Nate Grey, and Jesus Cable.

Those are his highest feats?

"highest?"

Those are pretty impressive feats. I've yet to see anyone punk Xavier like that, not since Rachel Grey back in the day. When she just arrived.

Originally posted by llagrok
"highest?"

Those are pretty impressive feats. I've yet to see anyone punk Xavier like that, not since Rachel Grey back in the day. When she just arrived.

"Greatest", "highest", "most impressive", you pick. Either way, if those are his most "prestigious" feats, his telepathy has been vastly overrated in the vs. Forum.

I want to see his lowest telepathic feats. I want to see the time he couldn't breach the psionic defenses of a racoon.

Originally posted by His Airness
"Greatest", "highest", "most impressive", you pick. Either way, if those are his most "prestigious" feats, his telepathy has been vastly overrated in the vs. Forum.

Can't think of any stronger feats than beating Xavier. Not for a 616 telepath.

Originally posted by llagrok
Can't think of any stronger feats than beating Xavier. Not for a 616 telepath.

Actually

http://img95.imageshack.us/img95/7517/newxmen11417xa8.th.jpghttp://img412.imageshack.us/img412/6546/newxmen11418vy5.th.jpghttp://img201.imageshack.us/img201/6702/newxmen11419ie6.th.jpghttp://img72.imageshack.us/img72/5099/newxmen11420hh1.th.jpg

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
He's got a couple of feats that put him at least on par with a non-jobbing Xavier.

Mental control of celestial tech.
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y37/Nightmareman95/Apoctech.pngTechnopathy maybe? Possible telekinesis? Meh. N/A. Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Apocalypse telekinetically raising his palace from under the ground
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y37/Nightmareman95/palacerise.png TK. N/A. Originally posted by TricksterPriest
A weakened Apocalypse punks Jean Grey (Phoenix!) psionically.
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y37/Nightmareman95/psionic53.png Mental defenses in turning the attack back. Not necessarily actual telepathy.
Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Mindrapes Xavier.
http://static.mojefotke.si/1ddaf62cdef62ccb2b33fc87e80c52a32887b5f7.JPGPerhaps the only scan here that may show telepathy. Although still ambiguous, it looks like Xavier was hit with an energy blast, and I've never seen a telepathic attack have the sound effect "ZRAK" as an energy blast would. Xavier isn't rendered unconscious.
Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Apocalypse takes a full telekinetic blast from Exodus with no effect, and blasts Exodus away. Apocalypse also creates a force field able to hold and even pre-powerdown Exodus.
http://img242.imageshack.us/img242/1774/exodusorigin13kw0.jpg
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y37/Nightmareman95/powers18.pngTK. N/A.
Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Apocalypse mind controlled the Inhuman population including the Dark Riders. Especially good, because Psynapse (one of the inhumans) is a very powerful psychic, with his own section of the astral plane
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y37/Nightmareman95/apocmindconrol.png
It comments he suborned the Inhumans with brainwashing, he isn't directly controlling them. N/A.
Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Exactly how good he is, I'm not sure. But he's at least on par with guys like Xavier, Exodus, and others. But below Onslaught, Nate Grey, and Jesus Cable. If those really are his highest "telepathic" feats then I concur that he's being vastly overrated in this regard.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot

Perhaps the only scan here that may show telepathy. Although still ambiguous, it looks like Xavier was hit with an energy blast, and I've never seen a telepathic attack have the sound effect "ZRAK" as an energy blast would. Xavier isn't rendered unconscious.


I think it's fair to say that's TP. A flash of light around the head is pretty common accompianyment.

Also he's fighting off a number of people while he does that.

Silly Exodus, you don't think I know of Cassandra Nova? Whose powers HAIL FROM PROFESSOR XAVIER? A mummudrai is not a mutant at all. I was referring to telepathic mutants.

So far, Apocalypse > All

A mindblast could really just be a low showing for Xavier...

Originally posted by llagrok
Silly Exodus, you don't think I know of Cassandra Nova? Whose powers HAIL FROM PROFESSOR XAVIER? A mummudrai is not a mutant at all. I was referring to telepathic mutants.

So far, Apocalypse > All

You probably do. But you said:

"Can't think of any stronger feats than beating Xavier. Not for a 616 telepath.

Clearly besting him while he's on Cerebra is a stronger feat for a 616 Telepath(Cassandra Nova)?

As for the scan...I never noticed the Zrak that X pointed out. Interesting.

IRRC Someone list all the times Apocalypse has captured Xavier and placed him into some sort of sleep. Because I remember coming across a scan where Xavier wakes up from his deep sleep and mindrapes Apocalypse.(If it's any help the art was pretty bad, and when Apocalypse got mind raped he made the same gesture as Macaulay Culkin in Home Alone. I just can't remember which issue it was. I think the scan may be in my PM box but it's too big to sift through.)

If it was indeed a mindblast at all.

And so far as mutant telepaths go, there are others with more and better feats.

Oh and Spunky.. "Apocalypse's" 313.

wasn't psynapse the dumbass who accidentally unlocked jean's then-repressed telepathy? maybe it was x-man's. maybe both.

Originally posted by Disappear
wasn't psynapse the dumbass who accidentally unlocked jean's then-repressed telepathy? maybe it was x-man's. maybe both.

He accidentally restored Nate's telepathy.

Dark rides failed up and down the wall xD

Originally posted by SpunkySmurph
A mindblast could really just be a low showing for Xavier...

Could be . . . but I get the feeling Apoc doesn't have a ton of offensice TP feats.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
He's got a couple of feats that put him at least on par with a non-jobbing Xavier.

Mental control of celestial tech.
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y37/Nightmareman95/Apoctech.png

Apocalypse telekinetically raising his palace from under the ground
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y37/Nightmareman95/palacerise.png

A weakened Apocalypse punks Jean Grey (Phoenix!) psionically.
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y37/Nightmareman95/psionic53.png

Mindrapes Xavier.
http://static.mojefotke.si/1ddaf62cdef62ccb2b33fc87e80c52a32887b5f7.JPG

Apocalypse takes a full telekinetic blast from Exodus with no effect, and blasts Exodus away. Apocalypse also creates a force field able to hold and even pre-powerdown Exodus.
http://img242.imageshack.us/img242/1774/exodusorigin13kw0.jpg
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y37/Nightmareman95/powers18.png

Apocalypse mind controlled the Inhuman population including the Dark Riders. Especially good, because Psynapse (one of the inhumans) is a very powerful psychic, with his own section of the astral plane
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y37/Nightmareman95/apocmindconrol.png

Exactly how good he is, I'm not sure. But he's at least on par with guys like Xavier, Exodus, and others. But below Onslaught, Nate Grey, and Jesus Cable.

Originally posted by llagrok
Can't think of any stronger feats than beating Xavier. Not for a 616 telepath. Moondragon put X in a coma (Mind Gem).
Strange beat Moondragon like nothing (Mind Gem).

Strange>>Moondragon>>>>>>>>Xavier.

And Moondragon normal easily is more powerful than X.

And one (possible) mindblast that fails to knock Xavier out doesn't constitute beating anyway...

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
And one (possible) mindblast that fails to knock Xavier out doesn't constitute beating anyway... Quite.
That's like me saying that Moondragon beat Surfer, even though she attacked him when he wasn't expecting it (very much like Apoc), and he wasn't down.

Continued from World of War Hulk thread...bump

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Has he tried? Thats the difference. Karma has...IRRC...and she's as weak as they get. Psylocke commented on Rudimentary Telepaths and the Astral Plane during her astral fight with Shadow King in X-Men #77 and #78.

He has like two instances of telepathy..(One ambigous one..and the other I'll give you...but will re-read up on the connection between Ozymandius and Apocalypse)

By that logic feats like Emma Frost using telekinesis would count...which they don't.

I'm going to bump the Apocalypse Telepathy thread to avoid anymore spam here.

Well I dont know id hes tried all I know is that hes a telepath, I would assume he actually knows what astral projection is and he probably ungergoes some form of training. So it seems to me the most likely conclusion is that he cant...or he cant yet.

Isnt creating illusions a form of telepathy? Whats IRRC?

Originally posted by Alfheim
Well I dont know id hes tried all I know is that hes a telepath, I would assume he actually knows what astral projection is and he probably ungergoes some form of training. So it seems to me the most likely conclusion is that he cant...or he cant yet.

Isnt creating illusions a form of telepathy? Whats IRRC?

Originally posted by Alfheim
All of them? Dont think Mentallo can.

Just remembered Mentallo actually has accessed the Astral Plane...he fought Xavier on the Astral Plane.

Marvel Team up V1 #118

http://img248.imageshack.us/img248/3743/marvelteamup11819cb5.th.jpg

Mental Illusions or are a form of telepathy...Illusions can also be created by Telekinesis though...as shown by Nate Grey.
IRRC = If I recall correctly.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Just remembered Mentallo actually has accessed the Astral Plane...he fought Xavier on the Astral Plane.

Marvel Team up V1 #118

http://img248.imageshack.us/img248/3743/marvelteamup11819cb5.th.jpg

Damn you!!!!! Oh well there goes my theory back to the drawing board.

The only thing I can see is then that Mastermind has never shown astral projection and neither has his dughter....I dont think. Theres also manslaughter as well he can make hismelf invisiible in peoples minds. Telekinetic illusions dont count because your not actually going into somebodys mind.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Damn you!!!!! Oh well there goes my theory back to the drawing board.

The only thing I can see is then that Mastermind has never shown astral projection and neither has his dughter....I dont think.

Mastermind has pulled Cyclops and fought him on the Astral Plane...he fought Xavier astrally in X-Men First Class as well. Masterminds daughter Lady Mastermind was able to access the Astral Plane and get pummeled on the Astral Plane by the Mummadrai hiding there and she's demonstrated far more telepathic abilities then her father.
Magneto and his on and off telepathic abilities have accessed the Astral Plane IRRC

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Mastermind has fought Cyclops and pulled him on the Astral Plane...he fought Xavier astrally in X-Men First Class as well. Masterminds daughter Lady Mastermind was able to access Astral Plane and get pummeled on the Astral Plane by the Mummadrai hiding there and she's demonstrated far more telepathic abilities then her father.

I think im gonna give up now. The last person I can think of is Manslaughter

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix3/manslaughterdef.htm

Hell he might have astral projected as well but not as far as I know.

That scan of him beating Xavier comes from a one time story arc where he absorbed the powers of nearly all the X-men through use of celestial tech.

Originally posted by Alfheim
I think im gonna give up now. The last person I can think of is Manslaughter

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix3/manslaughterdef.htm

Hell he might have astral projected as well but not as far as I know.

I don't know enough about him to say...but since Apocalypse is an X-character. And if he really is a telepath I don't see why they would write him any differently to any other X-written telepath...heck even Mags with his so called telepathy and latent telepathy can astral project and access the Astral Plane.

http://img179.imageshack.us/my.php?image=hy3pg220vm.jpg
http://img110.imageshack.us/my.php?image=xmen0410mb2.jpg
http://img93.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ucxm00604bd2.jpg
http://img161.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ucxm00605uf6.jpg
http://img48.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ucxm00606us4.jpg
http://img179.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ucxm00607bi6.jpg

Mr. Sinister has also accessed the Astral Plane during the Inferno Arc where he took on both X-teams. Monet St. Croix accessed the Astral Plane in Gen X #19. Astrid Bloom accessed the Astral Plane in Emma Frost #18

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
I don't know enough about him to say...but since Apocalypse is an X-character. I don't see why they would write him any differently if he was a telepath

Well you could be right but sometimes writers make characters suck. Hell Champion has the ability to teleport objects all of a sudden the writers decided to turn him into a cosmic brick.

You put forward a good case but sometimes some characters just get a raw deal.


Originally posted by ExodusCloak

...heck even Mags with his so called telepathy and latent telepathy can astral project and access the Astral Plane.

http://img179.imageshack.us/my.php?image=hy3pg220vm.jpg
http://img110.imageshack.us/my.php?image=xmen0410mb2.jpg
http://img93.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ucxm00604bd2.jpg
http://img161.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ucxm00605uf6.jpg
http://img48.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ucxm00606us4.jpg
http://img179.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ucxm00607bi6.jpg

Mr. Sinister has also accessed the Astral Plane.

Yeah well all the evidence indicates you are right. Manslaughter seems the exception to the rule but this is probably because he is an obscure characters he pisonic powers are very weak and im pretty sure they are weaker than Karmas. Karma can control minds right?

Anyway heres a better link

http://www.marveldirectory.com/individuals/m/manslaughter.htm

Known Superhuman Powers: Manslaughter possesses limited telepathic powers which enable him to "read" the activity of the autonomic nervous systems of other people. He can use this ability to influence the peripheral vision and subliminal hearing of other people. Thus he can effectively make himself invisible unless he is seen straight on, and he can prevent someone from hearing him as long as the sounds he makes are roughly at the level of ambient sound in the room they are in. The source of Manslaughter's powers is unknown; possibly he is a mutant.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Karma can control minds right?

Yep...

Manslaughter doesn't seem like a true telepath...he seems to have access to be able to manipulate the biological functions of the mind and body bia the nervous system rather then the conscious aspects...

Can he read peoples thoughts?

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Yep...

OK just checking I got the right one.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak

Manslaughter doesn't seem like a true telepath...he seems to have access to be able to manipulate the biological functions of the mind and body bia the nervous system rather then the conscious aspects...

Can he read peoples thoughts?

As far as I know all he uses his powers to do is affects peoples minds so he becomes invisible. I dont think he can actually read minds but to be fair hes powers are described as being "telepathic" so he still does come under the telepathic category.

Originally posted by Alfheim
OK just checking I got the right one.



As far as I know all he uses his powers to do is affects peoples minds so he becomes invisible. I dont think he can actually read minds but to be fair hes powers are described as being "telepathic" so he still does come under the telepathic category.

Not necessarily...if he can't read peoples thoughts then he's as good (Slightly better) as this guy:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benedict_Kine

Telepaths can manipulate biological functions of the body..eg induce orgasms, pain...inhibit pain. That seems to match with his bio because it says he has limited telepathy.

Example to become invisible to people he would effect their nervous system which their optical nerves are attached to...

The Astral Plane is the sum accumulation of everyones(Non-Telepath and Telepath) mental energy...it's also the sum accumulation of psionic energy(Refered to as life Energy when Cable takes Apocalypse to the Astral Plane)
If he can't read peoples thoughts then logically speaking he's not going to be able to access the astral plane.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Not necessarily...if he can't read peoples thoughts then he's as good (Slightly better) as this guy:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benedict_Kine

Telepaths can manipulate biological functions of the body..eg induce orgasms, pain...inhibit pain. That seems to match with his bio because it says he has limited telepathy.

Yes and manslaughter manipluates the functions of the body by making himself invisible.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak

The Astral Plane is the sum accumulation of everyone(Non-Telepath and Telepath) mental energy...it's also the sum accumulation of psionic energy(Refered to as life Energy when Cable takes Apocalypse to the Astral Plane)
If he can't read peoples thoughts then logically speaking he's not going to be able to access the astral plane.

Yes by why do you have to just be able to read peoples thoughts to gain access? If you can acess peoples mind even if you cant acess their thoughts you still have acess to their mental energy logically it should give you limited astral projection. Telepathy does not strictly have to be reading people thoughts but manipulating minds psionically and at the end of the day thats what gives people astral porjection so it should apply to all forms of telepathy.

It's more complicated than that. Yes, Apocalypse can enter the Astral Plane through astral projection, but he needed Cable to teleport their PHYSICAL FORMS to the astral plane, a fairly impressive feat in and of itself...but one I don't think was ever supposed to be within Cable's power to do before. Kind of out of left field in regards to his level at the time.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Yes and manslaughter manipluates the functions of the body by making himself invisible.

If he manipulates the nervous system which the optical nerves are connected to then he can render himself invisible that way.

If he can't read thoughts then he's not a true telepath.




He's manipulating peoples minds by manipulating their nervous system. He's not consciously controlling their thoughts. He's manipulating their biological functions via secondary means...while a telepath manipulates a persons functions directly at the source.

The Astral Plane is mental energy if you don't have direct control over mental then how are you supposed to access or manipulate the Astral Plane.

http://img147.imageshack.us/my.php?image=xmen07722um8.jpg

I'm sure he'd have some tiny link to the Astral Plane...but like Spiderman who also has a type of telepathic power and also a tiny link to the plane...he can't access it because he's not a true telepath.

Originally posted by Bad Ash231
It's more complicated than that. Yes, Apocalypse can enter the Astral Plane through astral projection, but he needed Cable to teleport their PHYSICAL FORMS to the astral plane, a fairly impressive feat in and of itself...but one I don't think was ever supposed to be within Cable's power to do before. Kind of out of left field in regards to his level at the time.

In X-Factor he needed baby Cable to access the Astral Plane as well.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
In X-Factor he needed baby Cable to access the Astral Plane as well.

Uh?

What is more likely, Apocalypse mind-blasting Xavier or Xavier (with human durability) resisting an energy blast from a relatively powerful mutant?

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
If he manipulates the nervous system which the optical nerves are connected to then he can render himself invisible that way.

If he can't read thoughts then he's not a true telepath.


He's manipulating peoples minds by manipulating their nervous system. He's not consciously controlling their thoughts. He's manipulating their biological functions via secondary means...while a telepath manipulates a persons functions directly at the source.



The Astral Plane is mental energy if you don't have direct control over mental then how are you supposed to access or manipulate the Astral Plane.



Well this is the thing it was described as limited telepathy and the word "read" was used so we could assume he doesnt just merely manipulate the nervous system. I dont know exactly how it works but I think they called it telepathy for a pupose. Bedlam can affect peoples nervous systems but his power are not described as telepathic. So we can assume there is a raeson for describing Mansluaghters powers as telepathic and not Bedlams.

So it seems affecting peoples minds does not neccesarily give you a classification as a telepath.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak

http://img147.imageshack.us/my.php?image=xmen07722um8.jpg

I'm sure he'd have some tiny link to the Astral Plane...but like Spiderman who also has a type of telepathic power and also a tiny link to the plane...he can't access it because he's not a true telepath.





How does Spiderman have any sort of telepathic ability? Well its like this if you have telepathic powers even if it not reading the mind you have access to mental energy, thoughts are mental energy in a more compliacted form so somebody like Manslaughter would have limited acess in theory.

P.S. Forget what I said about the word "read".

Originally posted by llagrok
What is more likely, Apocalypse mind-blasting Xavier or Xavier (with human durability) resisting an energy blast from a relatively powerful mutant?

Considering that only Apocalypses eyes glew red...it didn't look like he put much effort into it. And when you look at BoA Apocalypse energy attacks certainly seem to vary when he puts effort into it...eg scene with Havok in BoA.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Well this is the thing it was described as limited telepathy and the word "read" was used so we could assume he doesnt just merely manipulate the nervous system. I dont know exactly how it works but I think they called it telepathy for a pupose. Bedlam can affect peoples nervous systems but his power are not described as telepathic. So we can assume there is a raeson for describing Mansluaghters powers as telepathic and not Bedlams.

So it seems affecting peoples minds does not neccesarily give you a classification as a telepath.

Like I said I don't know much of Manslaughter so I can't be 100% sure...but I assumed since you would know more about him since you're bringing the character up? Either way though...he'd be similar to spidey.(See below)



Look at the scan....Spidermans Spider sense is also telepathic like...his power was switched off during Psi-War...all telepathic-like characters on Marvel Earth were effected by Psi-War. Spiderman can't access the Astral Plane because he has a special type of telepathy.

He would be like Spidey in theory...

Either way though. There's little to suggest that Apocalypse uses telepathy apart from the Ozymandius incident where he looked at the "Tapestry in Ozymandius mind" and Zzzrak Scan. And his more recent appearances suggest that he doesn't when you consider that Ozymandius managed to hide things from his master.
You'd think a character like Apocalypse would have more telepathic feats then that? And less ambiguous ones to say the least. As said before Emma Frost has demonstrated Telekinesis more times then Apocalypse and his telepathy. Even Magneto has more concrete instances with telepathy then Apocalypse.
You'd also think Exodus would have mentioned him in his Telepathic Ranking. Since Apocalypse is the one who augmented him and all.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
X-Factor #68 where he was hooked up to a machine. An avatar of him fought Jean on the Astral Plane, he was merged with Baby Cable...Scott and Jean defeated him.

That wasn't him.


It was the techno organic virus in the form of Apocalypse.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Considering that only Apocalypses eyes glew red...it didn't look like he put much effort into it.

Apoc's energy blasts in the issue were blue...


I still don't see why it wasn't a mind blast. Considering Apocalypse's eyes glow at all....

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Considering that only Apocalypses eyes glew red...it didn't look like he put much effort into it. And when you look at BoA Apocalypse energy attacks certainly seem to vary when he puts effort into it...eg scene with Havok in BoA.

You mean when Apocalypse was depowered?

Originally posted by Bad Ash231
That wasn't him.


It was the techno organic virus in the form of Apocalypse.

He was organically linked to Baby Cable before though. Meh...either way though even in the Onslaught Saga Apocalypse didn't demonstrate anything telepathic on that Astral Plane. Cable was the one who refered to all the advantages he had on the Astral Plane being a telepath and all...not one time did they mention that Apocalypse had the same advantages.





He created a blue energy field when he was merging with Nate Grey....that wasn't his energy blast.




The Zzzrak...and the fact that Jean Grey had her hands up as if she was trying to block her face from the yellow blast.

Originally posted by llagrok
You mean when Apocalypse was depowered?

That doesn't change the fact that Apocalypse didn't put much effort into the blast.

I'll ask you your question in reverse...how does a character as old as Apocalypse have telepathy when he's hardly demonstrated any concrete telepathy on panel? Two instances...one of which is ambiguous. While a character like Sinister who appears less then Apocalypse has TK and TP listed in his OHOTMU bio..and has been called a telepath on panel and has demonstrated TP on panel is? It doesn't make any sense.

BTW So would you consider Emma a telekinetic?

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
He created a blue energy field when he was merging with Nate Grey....that wasn't his energy blast.


http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y37/Nightmareman95/HAL10WEEN/apocenergyblue.png

Originally posted by Bad Ash231
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y37/Nightmareman95/HAL10WEEN/apocenergyblue.png

That looks like his telekinesis...which makes sense since the blue field that he created with Nate Grey was pushing the X-Men back...note how that blast didn't make any Zzrrak...

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
That doesn't change the fact that Apocalypse didn't put much effort into the blast.

How could Apoc have projected an energy blast at Xavier? There was a force field around him...

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
I'll ask you your question in reverse...how does a character as old as Apocalypse have telepathy when he's hardly demonstrated any concrete telepathy on panel? Two instances...one of which is ambiguous.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y37/Nightmareman95/psionic53.png

Here he looks like possibly mind controlling one of his creatures and talking through it to Exodus...

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y37/Nightmareman95/HAL10WEEN/apocexodusmantis3.png

Originally posted by Bad Ash231
How could Apoc have projected an energy blast at Xavier? There was a force field around him...

It's his force field though so he could control it however he wants to control it...and they don't show you the field when they show his eye go red..or his hand for that matter



He's deflecting Jeans Greys attack back at her..

But I'll concede to the Lackey...one...that does look like he's speaking through the monster....so he does have some type of telepathy then. But it's limited...and he hardly ever uses it. The Zzraak thing still doesn't look like a mind blast though. And they seem to have forgotten about his telepathy as well. And for some reason he can't access the Astral Plane.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
He's deflecting Jeans Greys attack back at her..

Uh, doesn't that show a psionic ability?

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
The Zzraak thing still doesn't look like a mind blast though.
What's wrong with the sound zzraak?


Originally posted by ExodusCloak
And they seem to have forgotten about his telepath as well.

"They"?

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
And for some reason he can't access the Astral Plane.

I haven't really seen anything that says he can't....

Originally posted by Bad Ash231
Uh, doesn't that show a psionic ability?

He deflected Havoks and Storms energy attacks back at them...in this particular case its not actual telepathy. Oh and Apocalypse had TK so I never said he didn't have psionic abilities.



Mindblasts don't make that sound...that sounds like an energy blast. Zzraak sounds like someone was shocked with a low dosage of static electricity. We aren't shown apocalypses hands when his eyes glow...or his body or his field...so it could be a energy blast...especially when you consider that the blast connected with Xaviers upper body not just his head.




Writers.




The instance with Cable...he took them to the Astral Plane first...then they went to Onslaughts realm where telepathy was turned solid...or something along those lines. Also Apocalypses reaction to the Astral Plane seemed like he has never been there before.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
He deflected Havoks and Storms energy attacks back at them...in

...a What If issue...


And Jean Grey outright stated that she attacked his mind.



Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Mindblasts don't make that sound...

What sounds do they make?

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Apocalypses reaction to the Astral Plane seemed like he has never been there before.

He said "Glorious, is it not?" like he had seen it before...

Originally posted by Bad Ash231
...a What If issue...


And Jean Grey outright stated that she attacked his mind.

And then he deflected her pink energy back at her. Like Xmarks said at the beginning of the thread that doesn't show telepathy. He deflected her energy back at her. That particular instance doesn't show telepathy.



They don't make sounds.



He's praising the damage Onslaught caused.

Here:

Apocalypse needed Cable to take him to the Astral Plane..
The Narrative says that only a select few of telepaths can access the Astral(Which is actually the majority of X-telepaths, in this particular case Apocalypse was an exception.) This was down to Cable. Apocalypse needed Cable for this...

http://img502.imageshack.us/img502/7940/cable03510wl3.th.jpg

From the Astral Plane they access Onslaughts physical Citadel

http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/9813/cable03514nx9.th.jpg

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
And then he deflected her pink energy back at her. Like Xmarks said at the beginning of the thread that doesn't show telepathy. He deflected her energy back at her. That particular instance doesn't show telepathy.

So, someone like Spider-Man could "deflect" Jean Grey's "energy" back at her?

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
They don't make sounds.

Neither was Apoc's energy blast here... shock

http://img134.imageshack.us/my.php?image=xmen05185en1.jpg

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
The Narrative says that only a select few of telepaths can access the Astral(Which is actually the majority of X-telepaths, in this particular case Apocalypse was an exception.) This was down to Cable.

Sure...


Since it was a Cable issue...




Anyway, Jeph Loeb probably wasn't aware that Apocalypse had capacity of Telepathy...

Originally posted by Bad Ash231
So, someone like Spider-Man could "deflect" Jean Grey's "energy" back at her? I wasn'taware of spiderman's ability to deflect energy.

Originally posted by Bad Ash231
Sure...


Since it was a Cable issue...




Anyway, Jeph Loeb probably wasn't aware that Apocalypse had capacity of Telepathy... Do you have anything to prove that he can access the Astral Plane?

Originally posted by Bad Ash231
So, someone like Spider-Man could "deflect" Jean Grey's "energy" back at her?

Nope...but seeing as how Apocalypse is a Telekinetic and the energies are similar (eg Emma blocking TK with her TP) then it seems plausable...




To be fair to Loeb...if that X-Factor Jean can hurt Apocalypse telepathically...to the stage where he's weakening...then that says a lot about his telepathy.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Nope...but seeing as how Apocalypse is a Telekinetic and the energies are similar (eg Emma blocking TK with her TP) then it seems plausable...

So, Apocalypse can block Telepathy... with Telekinesis?


Originally posted by Creshosk
Do you have anything to prove that he can access the Astral Plane?

There's really no proof he can't.

He needed Cable to teleport their PHYSICAL FORMS to the astral plane. Which is a different matter...



Originally posted by Creshosk
To be fair to Loeb...if that X-Factor Jean can hurt Apocalypse telepathically...to the stage where he's weakening...then that says a lot about his telepathy.

Wait, what?

Originally posted by Bad Ash231
There's really no proof he can't.

He needed Cable to teleport their PHYSICAL FORMS to the astral plane. Which is a different matter... There's no proof that Jubilee, wolverine or spider-man can't... they'e never tried and failed afterall. Does that mean that they can?

That's why the default is the negative. Now then, do you have any proof that he CAN.

Originally posted by Bad Ash231
So, Apocalypse can block Telepathy... with Telekinesis?

He can deflect her psionic energy, back at her. She used her psionic energy to apply pressure onto his mind. He can deflect energy...I assume that's how he managed to deflect her attack back at her...whatever it was he deflected her attack back at her. That particular instance doesn't demonstrate telepathy I'm afraid.




He needed Cable to transport him to the Astral Plane...so they could access a pathway that would lead them to Onslaughts Solidified Telepathy Citadel undetected. Where are you getting this physical form thing from? See the New X-Men Nuff said issue and X-Men 77 and 78...people usually look solid when the access the Astral Plane.

If they weren't phyiscally on the astral plane, how do you explain the part with the Invisible Woman?

Also, I have to say that your explanations against Apocalypse's telepathy are pretty rediculous and far fetched. It's like you're desperately trying to find some other solution.

Originally posted by llagrok
If they were on the astral plane, how do you explain the part with the Invisible Woman?

Cable brought her along and telepathically cloaked her from Apocalypse,

This is the Astral Plane:

http://img502.imageshack.us/my.php?image=cable03510wl3.jpg

From the Astral Plane they accessed Onslaughts Citadel Undetected..
This is outside the Astral Plane(As the panel states) where the IW reveals herself.

http://img142.imageshack.us/my.php?image=cable03514nx9.jpg

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
He needed Cable to transport him to the Astral Plane...so they could access Onslaughts Citadel undetected. Where are you getting this physical form thing from? See the New X-Men Nuff said issue and X-Men 77 and 78...people usually look solid when the access the Astral Plane.


Someone at HeroChat actually told me.


And people have access to their powers at the Astral Plane?

Apocalypse showed firing energy blasts and Invisible Women used her shields...




And in what issue was this:

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
To be fair to Loeb...if that X-Factor Jean can hurt Apocalypse telepathically...to the stage where he's weakening...then that says a lot about his telepathy.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Cable brought her along and telepathically cloaked her from Apocalypse,

This is the Astral Plane:

http://img502.imageshack.us/my.php?image=cable03510wl3.jpg

From the Astral Plane they accessed Onslaughts Citadel Undetected..
This is outside the Astral Plane(As the panel states) where the IW reveals herself.

http://img142.imageshack.us/my.php?image=cable03514nx9.jpg

Not the part I was referring to but....

Originally posted by Bad Ash231
Someone at HeroChat actually told me.


And people have access to their powers at the Astral Plane?

Apocalypse showed firing energy blasts and Invisible Women used her shields...

Psychics usually do...non-telepaths usually don't. They were not on the Astral Plane when the IW and Apocalypse were firing blasts.

http://img142.imageshack.us/my.php?image=cable03514nx9.jpg
Look at the scan...Onslaughts Citadel is outside the Astral Plane.






The scan you posted..the one where he deflected her energy back at her.

Originally posted by llagrok
Not the part I was referring to but....

You're refering to the part where they enter Onslaughts Citadel to rescue Franklin right?

Onslaughts Citadel is outside the Astral Plane as the scan states.

http://img142.imageshack.us/my.php?image=cable03514nx9.jpg

That was a weakened Apocalypse that had been woken up too early. Not to mention Mr. Sinister had poisoned him with a plague.

How can you take someone into the astral plane and physically move them without physically taking them into the astral plane?

Originally posted by llagrok
How can you take someone into the astral plane and physically move them without physically taking them into the astral plane? You can go into the astral plane non-physically and do battle that results in physical damage to the body. Its how Xavier lost use of his legs one time when the Shadow King crushed his legs.

Originally posted by Creshosk
You can go into the astral plane non-physically and do battle that results in physical damage to the body. Its how Xavier lost use of his legs one time when the Shadow King crushed his legs.

Yeah, because you damage someone's nerve center or something. That actually makes sense, you receive physical injuries.

However, how do you physically MOVE someone into a fortress that can only be accessed through the astral plane, without physically moving into the astral plane?

Originally posted by llagrok
Yeah, because you damage someone's nerve center or something. That actually makes sense, you receive physical injuries.

However, how do you physically MOVE someone into a fortress that can only be accessed through the astral plane, without physically moving into the astral plane?

I'm not following. Cable took Apocalypse onto the Astral Plane for two pages...they both were solid. We're saying that Apocalypse needed someone to access the Astral Plane...just like Storm needs someone to access the Astral Plane. Shadow King forced Storm and Cecilia Reyes onto the Astral Plane they both were solid and free to move on it. They both just didn't have their powers and were helpless. When Sinister was attacking Jeans mind during the Inferno all the non-psychics were all solid and free to move, they just didn't have their powers. Psylocke was the only useful one.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
I'm not following. Cable took Apocalypse onto the Astral Plane for two pages...they both were solid. We're saying that Apocalypse needed someone to access the Astral Plane...just like Storm needs someone to access the Astral Plane. Shadow King forced Storm and Cecilia Reyes onto the Astral Plane they both were solid and free to move on it. They both just didn't have their powers and were helpless. When Sinister was attacking Jeans mind during the Inferno all the non-psychics were all solid and free to move, they just didn't have their powers. Psylocke was the only useful one.

They couldn't enter Onslaught's fortress without entering the astral plane.

How did they move their physical bodies into his fortress, without moving their physical bodies into the astral plane? I've never seen anyone use their powers like that on the astral plane anyways, I could be wrong about that.

Originally posted by llagrok
They couldn't enter Onslaught's fortress without entering the astral plane.

How did they move their physical bodies into his fortress, without moving their physical bodies into the astral plane? I've never seen anyone use their powers like that on the astral plane anyways, I could be wrong about that.

Huh? They were standing outside Onslaughts Citadel at the beginning of the issue before they even entered the Astral Plane. They could have entered it head on...but they would have been caught.
The idea behind entering the Astral Plane was to enter his fortress undetected as Apocalypse said. But as shown below they failed...they were noticed the moment they entered Onslaughts fortress.

http://img509.imageshack.us/img509/5544/cable03503vy7.th.jpg
http://img86.imageshack.us/img86/5064/cable03513zs3.th.jpg

Onslaughts Citadel is located "Outside the Astral Plane"

http://img91.imageshack.us/img91/3316/cable03514qr1.th.jpghttp://img91.imageshack.us/img91/2040/cable03515ik1.th.jpg

Onslaughts Citadel was unique in the sense that...it was built out of Solidified Telepathic Energy and could be accessed both from the Physical Realm and The Astral Realm. It was lying in an inbetween...that's presumbly how Susan and Apocalypse could use their powers in their as that inbetween realm consisted of solidified thought... I mean Onslaught in his citadel created solid thought manifestations of the Hulk and Magneto...I'm not entirely sure how that worked...
When Onslaught throws them out, they land back in the same place they started:

http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/7342/cable03521jg9.th.jpg

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
It's his force field though so he could control it however he wants to control it...and they don't show you the field when they show his eye go red..or his hand for that matter

His force field?


If he could control it, then he would have sealed the hole Cable caused...


Originally posted by ExodusCloak
We aren't shown apocalypses hands when his eyes glow...or his body or his field...so it could be a energy blast...especially when you consider that the blast connected with Xaviers upper body not just his head.

Maybe we're specifically shown Apocalypse's eye because he does not project an attack from his hands? ermm The entire page shows Apocalypse not lifting a finger in any panel because he's busy merging with Nate Grey.

The ONLY time Apocalypse was shown firing an energy blast from his hand, was after Cable had breached a hole in the field, and he blasted Jean away with, apparently (according to you) telekinesis.

Originally posted by Bad Ash231
His force field?


If he could control it, then he would have sealed the hole Cable caused...

That's assuming the force-field is meant to block outgoing energy...I could ask the same thing in reverse...how did psionic energy manage to exit the field? Maybe the field actually allows outgoing energy?

The point of the machine was meant to transfer the energies of the twelve and Nate Grey into Apocalypse. That generated the field. Maybe he was too busy sucking the energy out of Nate Grey..the X-Men kept on attacking him and the field. He was trying to hurry on the procedure. The field started to diminish as the procedure was nearing completetion. Either way the point is moot...because in both our theories energy has to leave the field.




Or maybe not...or he shot something from his eyes...or he hit Xavier with telekinesis...or he he generated a surge from his body...there's an endless amount of speculation that could be made but:

How would you explain the position of Jeans arms(Shielding herself from the impact) from Apocalypse blast at Xavier if it was a mental blast?

http://static.mojefotke.si/1ddaf62cdef62ccb2b33fc87e80c52a32887b5f7.JPG

edit

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
How would you explain the position of Jeans arms(Shielding herself from the impact) from Apocalypse blast at Xavier if it was a mental blast?

Bright flash of light surrounding his body (energy attacks are odd in comic form at times, sometimes the visuals are just for the readers, sometimes the characters also see them) or it could be that since his body jerked and he seemed to be flailing that she was shielding herself from that.

Apocalypse also isn't know for having the ability to set his energy blasts to stun so...

Originally posted by Bad Ash231
Bright flash of light surrounding his body (energy attacks are odd in comic form at times, sometimes the visuals are just for the readers, sometimes the characters also see them) or it could be that since his body jerked and he seemed to be flailing that she was shielding herself from that.

Apocalypse also isn't know for having the ability to set his energy blasts to stun so...

As far as it's been shown mental energy has never been shown to blind onlooking individuals. In fact I have never seen psionic energy blasts blind people before.

Seeing how he's blasted the X-Men before with Energy attacks...eg Rogue and it hasn't killed them I'd assume its the same here. Shielding herself from his flailing? Huh? He wasn't that close to her. It looks more like she was shielding herself from the light and impact of his energy blast.

http://img513.imageshack.us/img513/5052/apoconeshotsroguehavokby4.jpg

In that Twelve arc issue he blasted Jean and he sucked Cyclops dry and didn't bother killing them when he had the chance. I presume it s the same with Xavier. He was preocuppied with more important matters.

If Charles is being blasted by some kind of energy, why aren't his clothes tearing?

Originally posted by Jyppe
If Charles is being blasted by some kind of energy, why aren't his clothes tearing?

All the X-Mens clothes(Even Casual clothes) are made out of special material, and unstable molecules that act as armour. Rogues clothes didn't tear when Apocalypse blasted her.
That and Hulks pants survive nukes.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
All the X-Mens clothes(Even Casual clothes) are made out of special material, and unstable molecules that act as armour. Rogues clothes didn't tear when Apocalypse blasted her.
That and Hulks pants survive nukes.

I was just being a smartass The blast might have been concussive in nature, but I'm still pretty sure it was Telepathy. The whole eye flashing deal might be related to the techno-organic virus, similar with Cable's eye flashing when he uses his powers. Btw, does Apoc use his energy powers/TK without using any gestures in the arc? I think he always shoots them from his hands, but in this case he doesn't.

Anyways, it doesn't really matter much to me whether Apocalypse is super telepathic monster or not.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
they show his eye go red

I thought I should mention that Apocalypse's normal eye color in that issue was red...

Here's something... interesting... I found...


Jean Grey states that Apocalypse has physical and psionic defenses.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y37/Nightmareman95/HAL10WEEN/apocphoneixshrug1.png

Psionic defenses don't mean you're telepathic. Juggernaut had psionic defenses in his hlemet and skull cap. He was no telepath.

Originally posted by Creshosk
Psionic defenses don't mean you're telepathic. Juggernaut had psionic defenses in his hlemet and skull cap. He was no telepath.

Except, Apocalypse has displayed telepathic feats...

Originally posted by Bad Ash231
Except, Apocalypse has displayed telepathic feats... that doesn't negate my point. Psionic defenses are not proof of telepathy.

Originally posted by Bad Ash231
Except, Apocalypse has displayed telepathic feats...

Cresh is right, Wolverine also has psionic defences. So does Storm to probing. So do all the X-Men actually...

Emma has displayed more telekinetic feats...then Apocalypse with his Telepathy.
The Ozymandius one is a feat for Apocalypse...and I'd give you the Black Knight one.(And we'll even assume he's not using Tech for that feat in the Black Knight one)

Heck in two of those 5 instances they even mention the word telekinesis Still doesn't mean she's a telekinetic or latent telekinetic it's not consistent enough to prove that she's one.

http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/6363/generationx4002sl2.th.jpghttp://img443.imageshack.us/img443/2268/generationx4003ax2.th.jpghttp://img522.imageshack.us/img522/4347/generationx4004vd9.th.jpghttp://img443.imageshack.us/img443/6403/generationx4005ys0.th.jpg

Continued:

And here after Jean transfered her mind into Emma's comatose body in order to save herself she uses Emma's powers to generate a telekinetic forcefield.

http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/3092/uncannyxmen28205uz7.th.jpghttp://img145.imageshack.us/img145/1553/uncannyxmen28209az5.th.jpghttp://img145.imageshack.us/img145/2240/uncannyxmen28210dg9.th.jpghttp://img145.imageshack.us/img145/8822/uncannyxmen28212dh8.th.jpghttp://img240.imageshack.us/img240/5152/uncannyxmen28214bg3.th.jpghttp://img139.imageshack.us/img139/2135/uncannyxmen28215jg8.th.jpghttp://img240.imageshack.us/img240/9216/uncannyxmen28216ei0.th.jpg

Levitating Kichen Utensils
http://img266.imageshack.us/my.php?image=generationx01916qk9.jpg

Claremont was on drugs when he wrote this:
http://img521.imageshack.us/my.php?image=newmutantsannual0432sx5.jpg

Blocking TK from reaching Scott
http://img128.imageshack.us/my.php?image=page0304zb4ep1.jpg

Doesn't mean she's a telekinetic

Originally posted by ExodusCloak


Like I said I don't know much of Manslaughter so I can't be 100% sure...but I assumed since you would know more about him since you're bringing the character up?

I think I know enough. Manslaughter is an obscure characters so theres not that much info. I had his 1986 bio and I think I had some Defenders comics on him but im not sure...it was along time ago.


Originally posted by ExodusCloak

Either way though...he'd be similar to spidey.(See below)



Look at the scan....Spidermans Spider sense is also telepathic like...his power was switched off during Psi-War...all telepathic-like characters on Marvel Earth were effected by Psi-War. Spiderman can't access the Astral Plane because he has a special type of telepathy.

He would be like Spidey in theory...

Im sorry but I think thats completely incorrect. Spidermans powers warn him of danger, if his powers were telepathic in nature they would only work with sentient beings. Hell his powers work even when he uses it to web-sling from building to building. Furthermore if you look athe scan it doesnt just refer to telepathic powers but intuitive powers as well. Spidermans powers are not telepathic they are intuitive.

Now even if Spiderman is a telepath you might have missed my point. If the astral plane contains mental energy and telepaths are able to acess it because they can read minds in principle anybody who has the power to acess minds should be able to acesss it but due to the fact they cannot go as far as reading thoughts they will only have limited acess. Remember Manslaughters bio states that he makes himself invisible by "reading" peoples mind. The reading just isnt as advanced as telepathy. On second thoughts my point about "read" seems valid.

Bare in mind im not saying you dont have a good point you do I just dont think its that clear cut. You make a good point I just think there are shades of grey.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak

Either way though. There's little to suggest that Apocalypse uses telepathy apart from the Ozymandius incident where he looked at the "Tapestry in Ozymandius mind" and Zzzrak Scan. And his more recent appearances suggest that he doesn't when you consider that Ozymandius managed to hide things from his master.
You'd think a character like Apocalypse would have more telepathic feats then that? And less ambiguous ones to say the least. As said before Emma Frost has demonstrated Telekinesis more times then Apocalypse and his telepathy. Even Magneto has more concrete instances with telepathy then Apocalypse.
You'd also think Exodus would have mentioned him in his Telepathic Ranking. Since Apocalypse is the one who augmented him and all.

Fair enough, but sometimes characters are just written badly and inconsistently.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Im sorry but I think thats completely incorrect. Spidermans powers warn him of danger, if his powers were telepathic in nature they would only work with sentient beings. Hell his powers work even when he uses it to web-sling from building to building. Furthermore if you look athe scan it doesnt just refer to telepathic powers but intuitive powers as well. Spidermans powers are not telepathic they are intuitive.

I said they were "telepathic-like" not telepathic. The point was that his powers are linked to the Astral Plane and yet he cannot access it or shape the plane to his will like a true telepath. Even if he were thrown on the Astral Plane by another telepath I doubt he'd be able to shape it to his will.

If Manslaughter cannot shape those energies(The energy of the Astral Plane is thought energy)...then he'll be in the same position as Spiderman.

Generally someone who can read minds and then manipulate said thoughts shows that the person should be able to access the astral plane. Because in theory they would be manipulating the very same energies that makes up the Astral Plane.

But I found a better bio on him and it seems as though he can manipulate emotions etc...so it's possible that he could access the Astral Plane.

http://www.comicvine.com/manslaughter/3139/

This bio here though:

http://www.marveldirectory.com/individuals/m/manslaughter.htm

Says that he can "read" the activity of the autonomic nervous systems of people. Read is in inverted commas, so he could psionically read the activity of the autonomic nervous system like Storm can feel and read the activity of the atmosphere she's in.

autonomic nervous system:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autonomic_nervous_system

That would explain how he's able to influence peoples peripheral vision and hearing.

However that Bio above...says he can form psychic links with people...and that he projected emotions into Moondragons mind so I presume that he can manipulate thoughts.

Comicvine is about as reliable as Marvel.com

Originally posted by llagrok
Comicvine is about as reliable as Marvel.com

Yeah but I realized that it says the same thing in this bio as well, the one Alfheim gave me.

http://www.marveldirectory.com/individuals/m/manslaughter.htm

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
I said they were "telepathic-like" not telepathic. The point was that his powers are linked to the Astral Plane and yet he cannot access it or shape the plane to his will like a true telepath. Even if he were thrown on the Astral Plane by another telepath I doubt he'd be able to shape it to his will.

You see I dont know what you arguing about wasnt the point you were trying to make is that somehow Spidermans powers have access to the mind? Obvoulsy You were not saying that Spiderman can read thoughts so obvoulsy you were saying his powers had some sort of link to the mind ie telepathic like. Eventhough I used the word telepathic its obvious I know what you meant.


Originally posted by ExodusCloak

If Manslaughter cannot shape those energies(The energy of the Astral Plane is thought energy)...then he'll be in the same position as Spiderman.

He can shape the energy thats how it goes invisible. Correct me if im wrong but does Spiderman have pwoers that affect the mind...he might do now...so I could be wrong.


Originally posted by ExodusCloak

But I found a better bio on him and it seems as though he can manipulate emotions etc...so it's possible that he could access the Astral Plane.

http://www.comicvine.com/manslaughter/3139/

I think it says that he can transfer emotions through a psyhic link. So thats not his standard power setting, even DD can do telepathy under the right cirucmstance but without these circumstances his powers are not telepathic. This is probably why its wasnt in the bio I gave you.

I think Wolverine gad telepathic powers with Cerebero that dont make him a telepath at all.

Originally posted by Alfheim
You see I dont know what you arguing about wasnt the point you were trying to make is that somehow Spidermans powers have access to the mind? Obvoulsy You were not saying that Spiderman can read thoughts so obvoulsy you were saying his powers had some sort of link to the mind ie telepathic like. Eventhough I used the word telepathic its obvious I know what you meant.

No I wasn't. I was trying to show you that even though a characters powers have links to the Astral Plane it doesn't neccessarily mean they can manipulate it or access it. Because to access the astral plane one would need to manipulate and shape it's very energies.(Mental Energy)
The bio you gave me said he "reads" autonomic nervous systems of other people. "Reads" is in inverted commas which could mean he psionically reads and manipulates autonomic nervous systems like Storm reads and psionically manipulates her enviroment. It doesn't make him a true telepath. If that was the case one could say that Storm has limited telepathy and Iceman has limited telepathy.
The autonomic nervous system is responsible for hearing, seeing etc...which explains how he's able to effect peoples vision and hearing.
This line here:

Thus he can effectively make himself invisible unless he is seen straight on, and he can prevent someone from hearing him as long as the sounds he makes are roughly at the level of ambient sound in the room they are in. The source of Manslaughter's powers is unknown; possibly he is a mutant.

Makes his limited telepathy even more suspect...his invisibility depends on what angle he's being looked at and the amplitude of the sounds he makes.




Oh wait you're right it says Moondragon estabilished the link...so then he can't create psychic links then? In that case since there's no evidence of him manipulating or shaping thought energy I'd presume he wouldn't be able to access the astral plane.



He used it to amplify his mind and communicate with Cable and Jean on the Astral Plane...he was communicating with two telepaths I'd hardly say he gained telepathic powers. Cerebra can be used by non-telepaths anyway. eg Kitty Pryde.

I can''t believe a thread about Apocalypse 5 pages long isn't about how lame he is.

Originally posted by Switch 07
I can''t believe a thread about Apocalypse 5 pages long isn't about how lame he is.

Shut up. jr_erm01

Originally posted by Bad Ash231
Shut up. jr_erm01

jr_erm01

Originally posted by Switch 07
I can''t believe a thread about Apocalypse 5 pages long isn't about how lame he is. Good observation.

Also, people shooting down everything the Apo-fans say, kind of says how lame he is...

Originally posted by Bransolute
I do like Apocalypse actually...

I have argued in the past for him to take the majority against Thanos...
herbvin

Originally posted by Bad Ash231
Here's something... interesting... I found...


Jean Grey states that Apocalypse has physical and psionic defenses.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y37/Nightmareman95/HAL10WEEN/apocphoneixshrug1.png

cyber has psionic defenses yet he never been shown to read some ones mind

No, but all know that he's had it operated in :/

Pretty much like Wolverine and Sabretooth.

Originally posted by llagrok
No, but all know that he's had it operated in :/

Pretty much like Wolverine and Sabretooth.

actaully he dident it part of his mutant powers, so try again.

Originally posted by llagrok
No, but all know that he's had it operated in :/

Pretty much like Wolverine and Sabretooth. Did this being operated in give them telepathic powers?

No? Then it doesn't change the point. Psionic defenses do not equate to telepathy.

Everyone who posted in this thread claiming that Apoc has no TP fails.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
No I wasn't. I was trying to show you that even though a characters powers have links to the Astral Plane it doesn't neccessarily mean they can manipulate it or access it. Because to access the astral plane one would need to manipulate and shape it's very energies.(Mental Energy)

This doesnt seem logical to me. First of all is it possible to have access to something without having to manipluate it? I was under the impression astral projection at its basic involves just being able to enter the astral plane manipulating doesnt have to come into it.

Well ok im not being bad but its like im going to have to repeat myself. Is mind reading the only way to shape mental energy? If somebody can makes somebodies mind experience pleasure or pain and make himself invisible isnt that shaping mental energy?

Originally posted by ExodusCloak


The bio you gave me said he "reads" autonomic nervous systems of other people. "Reads" is in inverted commas which could mean he psionically reads and manipulates autonomic nervous systems like Storm reads and psionically manipulates her enviroment. It doesn't make him a true telepath. If that was the case one could say that Storm has limited telepathy and Iceman has limited telepathy.


I dont get it. Where talking about in order to acces the astral plane you need to be able to shape mental energy and therefore you should at least have some power to affect the mind. How did you then bring Iceman and Storm into this? Both Iceman and Storm may have psionic powers but Storms is related to the weather and Iceman temperature there powers are not directly linked to the mind like Manslaughters.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak


The autonomic nervous system is responsible for hearing, seeing etc...which explains how he's able to effect peoples vision and hearing.
This line here:

Yeah so thats not part of the mind then?



Originally posted by ExodusCloak


Thus he can effectively make himself invisible unless he is seen straight on, and he can prevent someone from hearing him as long as the sounds he makes are roughly at the level of ambient sound in the room they are in. The source of Manslaughter's powers is unknown; possibly he is a mutant.

Makes his limited telepathy even more suspect...his invisibility depends on what angle he's being looked at and the amplitude of the sounds he makes.

Its not suspect at all. Its a low level power. Hes invisible if you dont look at him directly. Im pretty sure you can identify lots of objects even fi you are not looking at them straight on, the fact of the matter is even if you were looking for him you wouldnt even see him at all period.

As for sound as long as he does make loud noises its ok. I can hear the Postman walking at a normal pace when he comes to post letters. At that sound level you wouldnt even hear Mansluaghter at all.



Originally posted by ExodusCloak

Oh wait you're right it says Moondragon estabilished the link...so then he can't create psychic links then? In that case since there's no evidence of him manipulating or shaping thought energy I'd presume he wouldn't be able to access the astral plane.

Well yeah there is as I explained earlier. At any rate I got the impression he can make psychic links with people with mental powers I think he did the samething with Gargoyle who does not have telepathy but does seem to have some sort of mental, mystical powers...but thats just a theory


Originally posted by ExodusCloak

He used it to amplify his mind and communicate with Cable and Jean on the Astral Plane...he was communicating with two telepaths I'd hardly say he gained telepathic powers. Cerebra can be used by non-telepaths anyway. eg Kitty Pryde.

*sigh*....that was my point.

I'd like to point out something interesting here. Apocalypse granted Deathverine some sort of telepathic powers among other things (He was able to cut Jean's telepathic link with Scott for example) The tech enhancing Wolverine came from the same source as Apocalypse's. Why couldn't he have some kind of TP if his horseman had?

Now to what degree his TP is, is pretty much what you should be debating.

Originally posted by Creshosk
Did this being operated in give them telepathic powers?

No? Then it doesn't change the point. Psionic defenses do not equate to telepathy.

I never claimed it did.

Originally posted by Alfheim
This doesnt seem logical to me. First of all is it possible to have access to something without having to manipluate it? I was under the impression astral projection at its basic involves just being able to enter the astral plane manipulating doesnt have to come into it.

Apparently yes according to that scan eg Spiderman. His Spider Sense works due to the astral plane yet he cannot manipulate or astrally access that plane. I presume it'd be the same for Destiny and Blindfold.

And how would one access said plane if they didn't have the ability to manipulate their own thought energy?(Their own consciousness/mind?)



You still not getting it...manipulating the mind DIRECTLY...as opposed to manipulating it INDIRECTLY. A person who psionically manipulates a certain part of the nervous system to induce pleasure, pain or loss of vision is manipulating the mind via secondary means. This individual is manipulating the nervous system via primary means and manipulating the mind via secondary means. (This is similar to Benedict, Vertigo etc..). Heck I can manipulate the mind(cause someone pain) via secondary means too. I can hit someone with a chair...I'm inducing pain via secondary means.

A person who directly manipulates a persons thoughts in order to carry out the same feat is manipulating the mind by primary means and the nervous system via secondary means.(This is a telepath)

That's the main difference between a telepath and a person who just psionically manipulates the nervous system.



You need to have at least some power to directly shape and manipulate thought energy.

Vertigo can effect the mind...but via secondary means. Psionic waves...effect nervous system...effect mind.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vertigo_%28Marvel_Comics%29

The bio suggests that Manslaughter manipulates the nervous system. It would be similar to how Storm manipulates the weather and how she's linked to the atmosphere. Manslaughter would psionically manipulate the nervous system just like Storm psionically manipulates the weather. And how Iceman can feel(Is linked) to the water in the atmosphere.





Note the difference...

1.) Psionically manipulating the nervous system to cause vision/hearing impairment...

as opposed to

2.) Manipulating the mind in order to manipulate the nervous system...

that's where a telepath and manslaughter differ.

And yes the nervous system isn't the mind. The mind is the mind. Telepaths manipulate thought energy to manipulate the nervous system. That bio suggests that Manslaughter does it the other way round. That's a big difference...see Vertigo.





Eh...that bio suggests that he manipulates the autonomic nervous system in order to effect a persons mind. That's not telepathy...telepathy works the other way around. That's what Benedict does and Vertigo is similar.
That's why he has those limits...if he was a telepath he wouldn't have such limits. His limits = the limits of the autonomous nervous system.





What it comes down to is this. If he can establish mental links on his own...then he should be able to. If he can't then he shouldn't be able to.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Apparently yes according to that scan eg Spiderman. His Spider Sense works due to the astral plane yet he cannot manipulate or astrally access that plane. I presume it'd be the same for Destiny and Blindfold.


I dont care what the scan says im well aware that Spiderman cannot access the astral plane...again im talking about the principle of accessing it. If you have powers that directly effect the mind psionically you should be able to do it.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak

And how would one access said plane if they didn't have the ability to manipulate their own thought energy?(Their own consciousness/mind?)

Ok please define thought energy. I was under the impression that psionic energy comes under thought energy this is were the mix-up maybe happening.


Originally posted by ExodusCloak

You still not getting it...manipulating the mind DIRECTLY...as opposed to manipulating it INDIRECTLY. A person who psionically manipulates a certain part of the nervous system to induce pleasure, pain or loss of vision is manipulating the mind via secondary means. This individual is manipulating the nervous system via primary means and manipulating the mind via secondary means. (This is similar to Benedict, Vertigo etc..). Heck I can manipulate the mind(cause someone pain) via secondary means too. I can hit someone with a chair...I'm inducing pain via secondary means.

A person who directly manipulates a persons thoughts in order to carry out the same feat is manipulating the mind by primary means and the nervous system via secondary means.(This is a telepath)

That's the main difference between a telepath and a person who just psionically manipulates the nervous system.


You need to have at least some power to directly shape and manipulate thought energy.

Vertigo can effect the mind...but via secondary means. Psionic waves...effect nervous system...effect mind.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vertigo_%28Marvel_Comics%29

The bio suggests that Manslaughter manipulates the nervous system. It would be similar to how Storm manipulates the weather and how she's linked to the atmosphere. Manslaughter would psionically manipulate the nervous system just like Storm psionically manipulates the weather. And how Iceman can feel(Is linked) to the water in the atmosphere.


I may not be getting it because maybe you have a different defintion of what thought energy is or yopur logic is flawed.

This is how I define manipulating the mind directly. Telepathy is a pisonic power right? So would it be logical to think that telepaths use psionic energy to manipulate minds? If they do then Manslaughter does the samething but in a less complex manner.

Storm and Iceman maybe able to affect the mind but they would do it indirectly. For example Iceman could freeze somebodies brain but Iceman is using psionic energy to reduce the temperature in order to effect the brain, this is different from using psionic energy to effect the brain directly because you are not using any other methods such as electricity or cold. Giving an example of punching somebody in the head is a terrible example and has no place in this discussion your not even using psionic energy in that example.




Originally posted by ExodusCloak

Note the difference...

1.) Psionically manipulating the nervous system to cause vision/hearing impairment...

as opposed to

2.) Manipulating the mind in order to manipulate the nervous system...

that's where a telepath and manslaughter differ.

And yes the nervous system isn't the mind. The mind is the mind. Telepaths manipulate thought energy to manipulate the nervous system. That bio suggests that Manslaughter does it the other way round. That's a big difference...see Vertigo.


Yes and I can see how were getting our wires crossed. You see manipluating the nervous system as the same as affecting the weather and temperature. The problem I have is this the nervous system is part of the brain. Can a telepath do telepathy on somebody who does not have a brain or who is dead, because if they cant a having a brain is an essential part of being able to do telepathy and as I was saying before telepathy involves using psionic energy to directly affect the mind with no inbetween mediums.



Originally posted by ExodusCloak

Eh...that bio suggests that he manipulates the autonomic nervous system in order to effect a persons mind. That's not telepathy...telepathy works the other way around. That's what Benedict does and Vertigo is similar.
That's why he has those limits...if he was a telepath he wouldn't have such limits. His limits = the limits of the autonomous nervous system.

What it comes down to is this. If he can establish mental links on his own...then he should be able to. If he can't then he shouldn't be able to.

Well define thought energy and explain if telepaths can do telepathy on people without brains.

Originally posted by Alfheim
I dont care what the scan says im well aware that Spiderman cannot access the astral plane...again im talking about the principle of accessing it. If you have powers that directly effect the mind psionically you should be able to do it.

Which is exactly my point. A person who manipulates the nervous system does not manipulate the mind directly. They manipulate it indirectly. They don't manipulate the mind itself they manipulates the nervous system which in turn manipulates the mind.



Storms power is also a psionic power. So nope.



It's not exactly the same thing, psionic energy has been considered many things: Electromagnetic Energy, Life Energy, Thought Energy...but it's utilized in many different ways. Storm psionically manipulates the weather...Manslaughter psionically manipulates the nervous system. Telepaths can shape psionic energy to form mind blasts. Non-telepathic Telekinetics can also shape psionic energy.
Telepaths are like satellite broadcasters and receivers. The communication between telepathy can occur between light years and there's no lag.
Psionic Energy only works at the speed of light. So there's a difference between in shaping psionic energy and communicating via telepathy.




The mind and the brain are two separate things in the MU. The brain is physical the mind is not.
Telepaths effect the non-physical mind to effect the physical body. A person who manipulates the nervous system effects the physical brain which in turn effects the mind. Which is why it is similar to my example. Magneto can also effect the physical nervous system. So can Benedict Kine who also psionically manipulates the nervous system.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benedict_Kine




There's no mind or spirit on a person who's dead. However telepathy has worked on beings who have no brains but have minds. And it has also worked on beings who have no physical bodies yet have minds.

It should also be noted that Rockslide and Iceman don't have brains or nervous systems when they lose they're bodies but they do have minds. (Like Malice)
Mind and Brain are two separate things. One's physical the other isn't.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Which is exactly my point. A person who manipulates the nervous system does not manipulate the mind directly. They manipulate it indirectly. They don't manipulate the mind itself they manipulates the nervous system which in turn manipulates the mind.



Storms power is also a psionic power. So nope.



It's not exactly the same thing, psionic energy has been considered many things: Electromagnetic Energy, Life Energy, Thought Energy...but it's utilized in many different ways. Storm psionically manipulates the weather...Manslaughter psionically manipulates the nervous system. Telepaths can shape psionic energy to form mind blasts. Non-telepathic Telekinetics can also shape psionic energy.
Telepaths are like satellite broadcasters and receivers. The communication between telepathy can occur between light years and there's no lag.
Psionic Energy only works at the speed of light. So there's a difference between in shaping psionic energy and communicating via telepathy.




The mind and the brain are two separate things in the MU. The brain is physical the mind is not.
Telepaths effect the non-physical mind to effect the physical body. A person who manipulates the nervous system effects the physical brain which in turn effects the mind. Which is why it is similar to my example. Magneto can also effect the physical nervous system. So can Benedict Kine who also psionically manipulates the nervous system.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benedict_Kine




There's no mind or spirit on a person who's dead. However telepathy has worked on beings who have no brains but have minds. And it has also worked on beings who have no physical bodies yet have minds.

It should also be noted that Rockslide and Iceman don't have brains or nervous systems when they lose they're bodies but they do have minds. (Like Malice)
Mind and Brain are two separate things. One's physical the other isn't.


http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix3/manslaughterdef.htm

Well anyway this bio states that he used his powers to find Interloper. So that implies he can make psyhic links.

Manslaughter grew up on the streets in poverty. At some point, he used his latent psychic abilities to track down the Eternal, Interloper, in the Siberian wilderness, and learned fighting skills from him.

Originally posted by Alfheim
http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix3/manslaughterdef.htm

Well anyway this bio states that he used his powers to find Interloper. So that implies he can make psyhic links.

Manslaughter grew up on the streets in poverty. At some point, he used his latent psychic abilities to track down the Eternal, Interloper, in the Siberian wilderness, and learned fighting skills from him.



You basically answered your own question.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
You basically answered your own question.

Are you trying to be a smartass? Your the one who said that making psyhic links could possibly give you access to the astral plane.

Now...I cant remember exactly where I said that but from what I can remember I made that quote based on the information you gave me. So im answering your question as well.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak

However that Bio above...says he can form psychic links with people...and that he projected emotions into Moondragons mind so I presume that he can manipulate thoughts.

Anyway im not finished and I have other point to make...possibly this is getting a nbit long.

Furthermore im pretty damn sure that you could transfer emotions and thougs not telepathically. Havent peoples brain patterns been given to other people through technological means? So even then its not that clear cut.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Which is exactly my point. A person who manipulates the nervous system does not manipulate the mind directly. They manipulate it indirectly. They don't manipulate the mind itself they manipulates the nervous system which in turn manipulates the mind.



Storms power is also a psionic power. So nope.



It's not exactly the same thing, psionic energy has been considered many things: Electromagnetic Energy, Life Energy, Thought Energy...but it's utilized in many different ways. Storm psionically manipulates the weather...Manslaughter psionically manipulates the nervous system. Telepaths can shape psionic energy to form mind blasts. Non-telepathic Telekinetics can also shape psionic energy.
Telepaths are like satellite broadcasters and receivers. The communication between telepathy can occur between light years and there's no lag.
Psionic Energy only works at the speed of light. So there's a difference between in shaping psionic energy and communicating via telepathy.




The mind and the brain are two separate things in the MU. The brain is physical the mind is not.
Telepaths effect the non-physical mind to effect the physical body. A person who manipulates the nervous system effects the physical brain which in turn effects the mind. Which is why it is similar to my example. Magneto can also effect the physical nervous system. So can Benedict Kine who also psionically manipulates the nervous system.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benedict_Kine




There's no mind or spirit on a person who's dead. However telepathy has worked on beings who have no brains but have minds. And it has also worked on beings who have no physical bodies yet have minds.

It should also be noted that Rockslide and Iceman don't have brains or nervous systems when they lose they're bodies but they do have minds. (Like Malice)
Mind and Brain are two separate things. One's physical the other isn't.

Ok that all seems logical.

What do you guys think of the new Ultimate Apocalypse arc coming

Originally posted by HueyFreeman
What do you guys think of the new Ultimate Apocalypse arc coming

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y37/Nightmareman95/HAL10WEEN/ULTXMEN091.jpg

Holy shit.

Aparently in the next few ultimate X-men comics we find out that ultimate stryfe and ultimate Onslaught are involved with Apocalypse

Meh. Seems to be cluttering up other thread - should probably be better discussed here.

Does he have telepathy? Well I'm not conclusively convinced.

Does he have high-level telepathy? Short answer, no. Or at least there's no conclusive proof of it. ermmhappy

http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/9914/93421844ou4.th.jpg
Note: The fifth is Emma Frost. ermmhappy

http://www.formspring.me/TomBrevoort

Q: Is Apocalypse a telepath? I know he's a telekinetic but during the Onslaught Saga he needed Cable to access the astral plane? During X-Factor he needed Baby Cable and a machine. Just wondering.

A: I don't think we've ever indicated that Apocalypse is a telepath.

http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/4834/32256504.jpg