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Its in the second Death Star where Vader fought Luke.

1.- saber duel
2.- force fight
3.- saber & force (all out)

Who wins for you?

Im undecisive in the first and third but the second i think Yoda takes it

Anakin
Yoda
Yoda

Yoda all the way. Anakin is WAY overhyped. He doesn't stand a chance against Yoda.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Yoda all the way. Anakin is WAY overhyped. He doesn't stand a chance against Yoda.

Sorry, but no. He overcame Count Dooku in a legitimate duel with laughable ease. He is at the very, very least on par with Yoda in lightsaber skills.

Anakin wins just the first battle. Yoda the last two.

Yeah thats what I thought.... so what's changed? I was left out of the loop for about 7 months...

Anakin
Yoda
Yoda

Originally posted by Gideon
Sorry, but no. He overcame Count Dooku in a legitimate duel with laughable ease. He is at the very, very least on par with Yoda in lightsaber skills.

I'm not going to argue whether or not the duel with Dooku was legitment. We've been arguing it since the movie came out and I doubt we'll ever settle it. That's beside the point though.

However, Anakin lost to Obi-wan. Obi-wan's near equal, Kit Fisto, was pwned by Sidious; who is inferior to Yoda in a saber duel, in seconds. The final point is that Yoda was the "most fearsome for the darkness had ever known." That includes Anakin "in teh zone" and the ROTS novel also puts Yoda as the apex of lightside power and Sidious as the apex of darkside power. Yoda simply outclasses him.

No, we haven't been arguing it. Advent and I have been proving it, you have been denying it; there's a difference. She and I have quotes from the commentaries, the novelization, and the screenplay. What do you have? Ah, yes... the fact that Anakin couldn't beat Obi-Wan. That certainly tips the scales.



Must we delve back into this argument? Obi-Wan was being knocked around the entire time. He won because he wasn't cocky , he used his head, he knows Anakin like the back of his damn hand, oh and - I almost forgot - he's the master of Soresu. Y'know, the defensive form? The same form that Dooku was forced to overcome with the Force instead of a lightsaber? The same form that would naturally be effective against Anakin?



Once again, you're comparing apples and oranges. Fisto wasn't the master of the ultimate defensive form.



Prove that Yoda > Sidious in lightsabers.



Get the quote right, Glentract: 'the most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known' - meaning that Yoda > Jedi Anakin in power .



We're discussing lightsaber skills, not Force powers or an all out fight .



No. The novelization effectively labels Yoda 'the most powerful Jedi' and Sidious 'the most powerful Sith'. No one is disputing Force powers, and no one said that the most powerful Jedi and most powerful Sith must be equals.



In a Force fight? You're damn right. In a lightsaber fight? Nope.

Glentract, GL himself has stated that "Dooku thinks he's just going to fight him". It contradicts LOE, the novel, the script, wherever the other proof that Dooku knew it was a set up was in. GL's words override any other source, including but not excluding the ROTS script, novel, LOE and anywhere else where it was stated that Dooku knew that it was a set up. What is so hard to understand about this?


Anyways:
1. Anakin wins if he's in teh zone. If not, Yoda likely wins. Either one is close, though.
2. Yoda, not to hard.
3. Yoda, pretty close, though.

Originally posted by darthsith19
Glentract, GL himself has stated that "Dooku thinks he's just going to fight him". It contradicts LOE, the novel, the script, wherever the other proof that Dooku knew it was a set up was in. GL's words override any other source, including but not excluding the ROTS script, novel, LOE and anywhere else where it was stated that Dooku knew that it was a set up. What is so hard to understand about this?

When did GL state that?

No, we haven't been arguing it. Advent and I have been proving it, you have been denying it; there's a difference. She and I have quotes from the commentaries, the novelization, and the screenplay. What do you have? Ah, yes... the fact that Anakin couldn't beat Obi-Wan. That certainly tips the scales.

You also have arrogance. If you'd pay attention you'd know that I also have quotes from multiple sources and that I've displayed them before. You've simply chosen to ignore them.

Must we delve back into this argument? Obi-Wan was being knocked around the entire time. He won because he wasn't cocky , he used his head, he knows Anakin like the back of his damn hand, oh and - I almost forgot - he's the master of Soresu. Y'know, the defensive form? The same form that Dooku was forced to overcome with the Force instead of a lightsaber? The same form that would naturally be effective against Anakin?

Obi-wan was not being knocked around the entire time. He was giving ground, AS IS THE COMMON THING TO DO WHEN USING SORESU. He was giving Anakin ground on purpose to draw him into a location that would allow him an advantage. Falling back was using his head and being the smarter fighter. Anakin being a dumbass isn't something that you can write off, it happened once it'll happen again. Especially when fighting an opponent many times smarter than Obi-wan.

You also forget that Anakin knows Obi-wan like the back of his hand. Every source states that the knew EACHOTHER! They DO NOT state that Obi-wan knew Anakin. Therefor there is ZERO NET ADVANTAGE for either Obi-wan or Anakin.

Why would Soresu being any better against Djem So than Djem So Would be against Soresu?

Once again, you're comparing apples and oranges. Fisto wasn't the master of the ultimate defensive form.

I'm not comparing apples to oranges. Obi-wan's form has never been proven to have a specific advantage over Djem So.

Furthermore, you apparently haven't realized that I'm not stating that Kit would have done the same against Anakin. I'm saying that Obi-wan would have been butchered by Sidious just as Kit was; just as Anakin would be if they ever truly fought, even in a lightsaber fight.

Prove that Yoda > Sidious in lightsabers.

Yoda has knowledge of every single lightsaber form as well as more than 10x Sidious' experince and has presumably faced far more opponents.

Sidious has until Yoda never fought an opponent of extreme caliber. The strongest person Sidious ever sparred as of ROTS was Maul, cause he was likely the only person.

Yoda on the other hand has sparred with Mace and Dooku, each of which are beyond the strongest person Sidious has ever sparred. Any fighter knows that when training you don't get better by fighter people half as good as you, you get better by fighting people who can really challenge you and push you to your limits. Sidious had no one who could do that because of his isolation, not because he was simply more powerful than everyone else. That's a massive advantage for Yoda.

Also note the simply fact that Sidious fled to the Senate Pods where the battle would swith from a lightsaber fight to a more Force-oriented one. The probable reason for this is Yoda was too strong with the saber, so Sidious fought him where he's best.

Get the quote right, Glentract: 'the most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known' - meaning that Yoda > Jedi Anakin in power .

That was directed at everyone in general, not just you. I know you areadly knew that, it was more for anyone who might claim Anakin could take him overall.

We're discussing lightsaber skills, not Force powers or an all out fight .

Again, directed at everyone in general, not you.



No. The novelization effectively labels Yoda 'the most powerful Jedi' and Sidious 'the most powerful Sith'. No one is disputing Force powers, and no one said that the most powerful Jedi and most powerful Sith must be equals.

Why would they have to be equals for my argument to work?

In a Force fight? You're damn right. In a lightsaber fight? Nope.

You really think Anakin would beat Yoda? Do you plan to raise any points for Anakin being better of your own or just continue arguing the points that I've already raised, cause I frankly don't see a thing shown here that puts Anakin as better. You can't just attack my case, you have to build one of your own.

Yoda, Yoda, and Yoda again. And just for the hell of it, I'll just say Yoda a fourth time.

How witty. This is a perfect example of why you were 'the black sheep' among the Antedivulians - if they even considered you one of their own. They, if anything, had a penchant for witty remarks and sharp-tongued humor. You're seemingly incapable of both, so do us all a favor and not waste valuable text trying to insult me to ellicit laughter.



You have quotes that specifically indicate that Count Dooku was still the better duelist and could have defeated Anakin? Even if you did, they would be retconned and rendered non-canon by Lucas's commentaries - but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt of providing me with these quotes. Who knows, then, maybe you and I can have Quote Wars?



Ah, but that isn't always the case. Obi-Wan didn't 'give ground' when he was battling Grievous - who is a perpetual beast of overwhelming physical strength and reflexes, and in this case - you're right - he did. He gave all the ground. He knew he couldn't match Anakin in strength or power, and relied simply on his defense and experience.



'Allow him the advantage'? So, what you're admitting to is that Obi-Wan didn't have an advantage prior to that single incident in regards to the 'high ground'?



Which, if you paid any attention, I already credited Obi-Wan with being. But he isn't the stronger or more powerful fighter.



...Right, so, I suppose I can say that - in a rematch - Dooku would be owned by Anakin yet again, since he was the cocky bastard during their duel? After all, "it'll happen once, it'll happen again".

Jeez, Glentract, sometimes I wonder why I even bother to debate with you. You end up saving me the trouble of proving my point.



Many times smarter? How so? Certainly wiser, perhaps. But, again, if this were the case, Sidious owns everybody, Glentract. Ragnos, Kun, Luke, Yoda, Dooku, Mace... on and on...



The difference is: Obi-Wan kept his cool and rationality about him the whole time, whereas Anakin was in "smash, kill!" mode and was obviously in no condition to actually use his knowledge of Obi-Wan to the best of his abilities. His arrogance clouded that, as best represented by the high ground incident: 'you underestimate my power!'

One could speculate that Anakin never really knew Obi-Wan at all.



Soresu is a defensive form. Obi-Wan mastered it to the degree that he was virtually impossible to kill in a lightsaber duel. Like I said, Count Dooku - the Makashi Master - could not overcome Obi-Wan's Soresu without using the Force.



Aside from the fact that it is a defensive form, whereas Djem So is offensive.

I'll get to the rest when I get back from school. Cya.

Originally posted by Gideon
on and on...
.


And on and oooonnnn....

The Revenge of the Sith Audio Commentary, during the fight between Dooku, Kenobi and Anakin he states this.

1.Anakin, w/ the darkside the best swordsman in ROTS
2.Yoda
3.Anakin

George Lucas said Yoda and Mace can hang with Sidious, "Anakin could have beat him." And on the ESB commentary, he says"Anakin could have beaten Sidious."

No, he says he could've beaten him IF he had not been wounded on Mustafar. He couldn't at that point, or he would've been mentioned.

Originally posted by kamikz
No, he says he could've beaten him IF he had not been wounded on Mustafar. He couldn't at that point, or he would've been mentioned.

No, if he meant Anakin of the future he would have said it, yeah he said him getting messed up stopped that, b/c he lost his power then and could not do what he had intended.

He just said, "Anakin could have done it." And the making of ROTS book, "You have to be Yoda or Mace to hang with Sidious," "Anakin could have beat him."

No, what he meant was that if Anakin did not get wounded on Mustafar, he would reach his potential, thus becoming the most powerful force user (and person) ever in Star Wars history. Then he would be able to defeat Sidious. But at this time, nothing states he can do it.

And the book is wrong then, since GL himself (highest source of all) states that only Mace and Yoda can contend with him, and that Anakin could only do it if he had not been wounded on Mustafar.
It doesn't take a genius to figure out that by "not wounded on Mustafar" means that Anakin would've grown stupidly strong, by not losing alot of his potential, not directly after the fight.

Originally posted by kamikz


Wrong, if he meant way in future he would said that, he just said he could have done it, and he said it more than once, and never said Anakin has the "potential to do it" just that he could have.

"Wrong".

He said that it was if he had not been wounded on Mustafa, I've never heard anything else. And he doesn't need to spell it out to you, he has talked about "IF Anakin never got wounded" so many times that anyone who watches it will get WHY Anakin could beat him had he not sustained those wounds.

You're gonna have to show me the exact quotes of Lucas saying "He can take him" without him even mentioning the Mustafar incident.


Oh and btw, we might have missunderstood eachother. Are you ONLY thinking in a saber match? Cause then I agree, Anakin does have a chance against Sidious. I thought you meant that Anakin was superior to Sidious overall, which was what the quote was about (the one GL said). So that one does not hold any ground, but if you are arguing swordsmanship then I agree.

Wrong. Someone who can outduel and defeat Count Dooku in lightsaber combat won't be "butchered" by Sidious. In fact, given how effortless the feat was, Anakin would defeat Sidious or Yoda in lightsaber combat.

Obi-Wan "butchered" by Sidious? Unless Sidious could use the Force, hardly. Dooku couldn't do it either.



That's pretty amazing... and this ten times superior experience didn't permit him to kill Sidious. The disparity in their age, experience, and knowledge should translate to Yoda "pwning" pretty much anybody. Sadly, it doesn't. Experience means a hell of a lot in technique, but means precious little to actual power.



This is true, but again... it's irrelevant.



...If we were basing our arguments on irrelevant issues, you'd undoubtably win; but this isn't the case. Sidious's 'experience' in comparison to Yoda does not mean anything - because in their confrontation, Yoda didn't pwn Sidious.



You must not be a fighter, because what you're saying is absolute bullshit. Yoda's eight centuries > Sidious's six decades would translate to a vast disparity between quality and refinement of swordsmanship if greater experience = greater skill. You're trying to fellate Yoda's experience without putting it into perspective.



And yet this "massive advantage" didn't manifest itself during the actual fight. What the hell does that mean, I wonder.



Could it be because Darth Sidious is the smarter fighter, and opted for a long ranged assault? That would certainly coincide with his goals: to end the fight and live to fight again. Saber-to-saber against a person who is his equal? Big risk for Sidious.



Actually, the most probable reason would be that Sidious fled to try a different type of assault. Obviously the lightsaber battle wasn't getting either of them anywhere, the difference being: Sidious is smarter and Yoda's primary source of offense and defense is his lightsaber.

Furthermore, they are apparent equals and in order for that to happen, they have to be equal in Force powers and in lightsaber skills.



You're missing the point. Yoda and Sidious are equals, but Sith and Jedi don't necessarily have to be. Anakin isn't 'more powerful' than they are, but he is the stronger and more capable swordsman.



I really do think Anakin would beat Yoda in a lightsaber battle. I think Anakin could beat anyone in the movies in a lightsaber battle short of special or exenuating circumstances.

I am with yoda. He was stated as the greatest jedi ever at that time (and anakin was a jedi knight). Also, anakin could have killed dooku but yoda was not having much trouble with him, and as soon as dooku fought him for a while, he decided to run instead of being killed, while he though he could beat anakin.

Yoda wins in all aspects, even though the difference wouldn't be that big.

That doesn't mean that he'd win in every category, just that he is more pwoerful overall.

Oh yeah, he was, and Coleman Trebor is a Jedi Master and a Council Member and Anakin would curbstomp him. The fact that Anakin is only a Knight is hardly proof that he'd lose.

Against Yoda he ran because he was smart, and realised that he couldn't win. Against Anakin, Sidious had given him instructions to fight him, and if, by chance, Anakin won he said that he would intervene and save Dooku's life. That's why Dooku looks so surprised when Palpatine says "kill him." Personally, if I were Dooku and my master had just betrayed me, my last words would gave been "He's the Sith Lord!"

1. Anakin
2. Yoda
3. Yoda

Precisely. Dooku's silence reflects poor writing and directing on Lucas's part (proving that though he is a masterful storyteller, he is a sub-par director). "Treachery is the way of the Sith", and Dooku knows that - it becomes his mantra in the RotS novelization - so he should have expected that he was expendable, and even if he didn't, Dooku has absolutely no excuse to not turn Sidious in, since he is also a treacherous, dishonorable hypocrite like his master.

Really, this is Count Dooku. When would he ever be surprised to the point of being speechless?

Originally posted by Gideon

Really, this is Count Dooku. When would he ever be surprised to the point of being speechless?

I don't know, maybe when he's about to die?

Maybe GL tought it would be against his noble background.

Originally posted by RocasAtoll
I don't know, maybe when he's about to die?

...Which one could argue would be the last place for Dooku to be 'speechless'. Darthsith is right, Dooku had every reason to turn Palpatine over to the Jedi now that he knew Palpatine was going to betray him. Dooku strikes me as the 'I'll-take-you-with-me!' type. Not saying that this would necessarily work (lmao, known Sith Lord and criminal against the word of the Supreme Chancellor?), but he'd sure as hell seem the type to try.

Yeah, and at least then the Jedi could have been a little bit on guard. They didn't believe him about Sidious controlling the senate but they still kept a closer eye on the senate. They wouldn't believe him again but they could keep a closer eye on the chancellor, especially seeing as they were beginning to suspect that he was trying to overthrow the Jedi anyways.

Solidus wins.

Originally posted by Nikkolas
Solidus wins.

Anakin CAN win the lightsaber duel, but its not a 100% guaranteed victory...but he can do it, no doubts there. The other two he would get pwned though.

Originally posted by Nikkolas
Solidus wins.

Nah, Solidus sucks monkey nuts.

Actually, in an all out battle, it would probably go to Anakin. Anakin is the kind of guy who goes straight with sabers, plus Yoda doesn't have any offensive Force powers that'll help him, and I don't think Yoda will be able to handle Anakin's raw power and his masterfulness of the Djem So.

Yoda would definitely win in the force duel.

Originally posted by vader11
Yoda would definitely win in the force duel.

Nobody ever disagreed with that...

Just one thing: wasn't stated that only yoda or possibly windu (due to vaadpad obviously i think) could win against sidious?

Originally posted by ((The_Anomaly))

Nah, Solidus sucks monkey nuts.


Nu uh!!!

Originally posted by kamhal
Just one thing: wasn't stated that only yoda or possibly windu (due to vaadpad obviously i think) could win against sidious?

This has nothing to do with the thread. However, Anakin as in RotS could also prove to be a very, very tough match for Sidious in saber combat.

Ok, what about the fact yoda sent obi-wan fight anakin instead of sidious, since obi-wan wasn't powerful enough to beat sidious? Or why sidious said "Darth vader WILL become more powerful then either of us".

It was pretty obvious in the movie that the fight between yoda and sidious was the fight between the top jedi vs the top sith. I think this says something.

Power is different than saber skills. Anakin, as of ROTS had the most power, just not the most mastery or experience. GL even said, "At the time of ROTS, Anakin is the most powerful Jedi, he just lacks the experience." Even in RODV it states, "Once the most powerful knight ever known to the Jedi Order, he is now a disciple of the darkside, a lord of the dreaded Sith, and the avenging right hand of the galaxy's ruthless new Emperor."

So anyway you cut it, Anakin is able (though not guaranteed) to beat anyone in saber combat, as of ROTS.

As far as sending OB1 to fight Anakin...there could be multiple reasons. OB1 couldn't beat Sidious, maybe Yoda was hoping that OB1's connection to Anakin would help (which it did in a way), or maybe he thought Anakin could beat him and figured that could be the end of the Jedi. There's alot of reasons. It doesn't negate the fact that Anakin could beat Yoda.

Originally posted by kamhal
Ok, what about the fact yoda sent obi-wan fight anakin instead of sidious, since obi-wan wasn't powerful enough to beat sidious? Or why sidious said "Darth vader WILL become more powerful then either of us".

It was pretty obvious in the movie that the fight between yoda and sidious was the fight between the top jedi vs the top sith. I think this says something.

The fact Yoda sent Kenobi against Anakin doesn't actually mean anything in terms of power or saber combat, seeing as Anakin was more powerful and more skilled than his master in saber combat. As Subjekt said, Yoda probably knew Anakin would beat Kenobi, but given to their connection and relationship, he probably thought Kenobi could bring Skywalker back to the light, or at least try.

Originally posted by kamikz
Nu uh!!!

Yea huh!!

He's the loser of the Sons of Big Boss. Big Boss, Solid (Snake), and Liquid are far better then he is.

He is t3h suck!!!!!!!!

In ROTS, yoda said to obi-wan that he would have to kill anakin and that "the boy you trained, gone he is, consume by darth vader". This doesn't seem much of a "bring back to like" declaration.
Also, i really don't see him as THE most powerful in ROTS. I am not saying he was not one of the strongest but there are some problems in making anakin THE strongest:

1) In force powers, he seems clearly behond yoda and even dooku (even though i believe this one had just a slight advantage).
2) In lightsaber duel, like it or not, he lost to obi-wan. Ok, it's true that obi-wan was his master but even though, in star wars' history some padawans slained their masters. And even if this affect their fight, the true is that obi-wan was not as good with his saber as characters like dooku, or even yoda or sidious who are quite more stronger then dooku.

As being the most powerful jedi knight, well, we don't know if this kind of statement is related with anakin's potential power, because by the end of ROTS, he doesn't seem to have surpass yet yoda or sidious.

Originally posted by ((The_Anomaly))
Yea huh!!

He's the loser of the Sons of Big Boss. Big Boss, Solid (Snake), and Liquid are far better then he is.

He is t3h suck!!!!!!!!


Nu uh.


Yeah, Solid and Liquid kick his ass hard, but he doesn't suck IMO.

sorry dudes but you guys are wrong way wrong in episode 3 anakin lost to obi wan because he didnt feel the whole dark side he felt 50% of the dark side so he couldnt umleash his true powers so if he had 100% of the dark side

anakin
anakin
anakin

Stop bringing up dead threads, and especially stop being an idiot. Anakin dies miserably in every possible scenario against Sidious.

Oh, and also provide proof for your claims that Anakin "lulz felt 50 pursent uv teh dark syde!"

He can't, he's an idiot.

shut up you idots you guys suck anakin felt the dark side but not fully now shut up idiots.

What a pleasant guy.

Considering Dark Serpents fascination with Sock of Ages Past, the thought has occurred to me that he may try to join the ranks.

isn't it obvious? his love for padme took away 6.4% of his darkside awareness. The fact that she was pregnant increased that by a factor of 3, or 19.2%. Obi wan was his friend, or in other words (c'mon, i can't believe i have to spell this out!) -5% DA, (24.2%) -8% for the hand he lost (32.2%), -1.1% for the first 11 younglings he killed (cause they were just so little and cute, and reminded them of his potential children) (44.3%) and he lost the final 5.7% of Darkside awarenes due to the fact that he wore a ponytail for 10 years, bringing his grand-total to 50% darkside awareness.
leave one above you alone, he obviously had it all figured out...

Yoda wins all three. Anakin wasn't even besting Dooku in lightsaber combat, even with the help of Obi Wan. The reason Anakin killed Dooku was because Dooku used Dun Moch on Anakin, and it brought out Anakins full fury. Yoda would not try to throw taunts at Anakin like Dooku did.

Mega-Lol.

Originally posted by truejedi
isn't it obvious? his love for padme took away 6.4% of his darkside awareness. The fact that she was pregnant increased that by a factor of 3, or 19.2%. Obi wan was his friend, or in other words (c'mon, i can't believe i have to spell this out!) -5% DA, (24.2%) -8% for the hand he lost (32.2%), -1.1% for the first 11 younglings he killed (cause they were just so little and cute, and reminded them of his potential children) (44.3%) and he lost the final 5.7% of Darkside awarenes due to the fact that he wore a ponytail for 10 years, bringing his grand-total to 50% darkside awareness.
leave one above you alone, he obviously had it all figured out...

Wow, I can't belive i never put all of that together. Thank you truejedi for showing me the way!

Originally posted by truejedi
isn't it obvious? his love for padme took away 6.4% of his darkside awareness. The fact that she was pregnant increased that by a factor of 3, or 19.2%. Obi wan was his friend, or in other words (c'mon, i can't believe i have to spell this out!) -5% DA, (24.2%) -8% for the hand he lost (32.2%), -1.1% for the first 11 younglings he killed (cause they were just so little and cute, and reminded them of his potential children) (44.3%) and he lost the final 5.7% of Darkside awarenes due to the fact that he wore a ponytail for 10 years, bringing his grand-total to 50% darkside awareness.
leave one above you alone, he obviously had it all figured out... Saving throw! Do a saving throw!

Originally posted by Tangible God
Saving throw! Do a saving throw!

Now a Fortitude Save!

I lol'd

lol. i just couldn't believe the original post... where do people get things like that?