Exar Kun and Darth Maul vs Darth Revan and Anakin Skywalker ep 3

xxXAcStylesXxx

Um according to whom now? Please give me some substantiated evidence on Exar Kun other then that whole "he performed like a master-swordsman" crap, which could mean he performed on Sera Keto's or Kit Fisto's level. Evidence other then beating a old crab who sucked in the first place.

The fact that he is rather good at hand to hand combat to the point he could beat Mandalore shows he's physically able combined with his supreme precognitive abilities, his connection to the force, and the quote of Canderous calling him the greatest single warrior of the era: meaning he's the best in Canderous eyes who has seen the numerous Jedi/Sith on the battle field. Double that with his victory over the "near unstoppable" Malak on the Star Forge that was described as epic and vicious (Meaning logically it probably wasn't a straight up force duel as saber combat is Malaks strong suit and what he always engages Revan in hence the igniting of the saber at the start of the duel)

Add that to all his knowledge of combat attained from the Ancient Sith and Jedi alike (in both dogma's he has a far more complete training in then Exar who didn't even finish his saber training and was a Padawan where as Revan was a Knight) And you have someone who would logically best Exar Kun in a saber duel as he'd have far more knowledge of the styles and is stronger in the force.

And you can prove that how? I'm pretty sure Exar's massive dark aura(especially since he was making no real attempts to conceal it with him performing a Sith ritual that drained a race and all) would be a pretty large damn target for the Jedi above Yavin 4.

Again and you can prove that how? Considering Vrook was apart of the Dantooine council only a mere months after the end of the GSW and was an active enough member to send Duron Qel Droma and others out on the Great Hunt (Shadows and Light). Logic points to Vrook probably meeting/seeing Exar Kun while he was a padawan. Other then that at the Conclave after the battle in the Empress Teta system Exar's scream is felt throughout the galaxy so again obviously he'd have a chance to feel his power/presence there.

The Golden Globe was on Yavin was it not? And the same Amulets which have never been used on a force user who can mount a credible defense against it? The same Amulets that Exar even says he could barley control the energy he was unleashing? The same Amulets that Exar says had almost destroyed him? Even if you want to make an argument of "he gained more control with time" the DSSB still says he's harmed by the use of them. And how will that save him from Revan who can conjure up a force storm over his head? Or use any other of the plethora of powers he has, which as I've said Exar probably hasn't even heard of.

kamhal

First, if there are some idiots here you must be the top on. I don't remember to be unpolite to anyone so if you can't chat as a normal person just to speak to me.
Second, greatest WARRIOR don't mean hand to hand combat, means that as a WARRIOR, as a fighter in the battlefield, he was the best, and since he was a jedi/sith, then he was the best with his lightsaber/force/both. As as far as canon goes, THIS is canon.

"Vrook Lamar was a male Human Jedi Master who fought during the Great Sith War. He served the Jedi Order on both the Jedi High Council and the Dantooine Enclave Council during the Great Hunt"- Wookipedia for you.

You little sh*t, if you talked like this to me in real life i would make eat dust. ESPECIALLY when you are attacking me for no reason at all. You are bias person for sure so i think it's stupid to continue this. By the way, Vrook said "the sudent we had ever SEEN"

By the was, this is from adjunta pall to you: "So much power...it is bliding" or "The force is so strong in you human"- Adjunta Pall to Revan.

Now try to justify this.

Gideon

ACstyles, are you asserting that Revan could conjure and launch a Force Storm faster than Kun could put a bolt through his chest?

xxXAcStylesXxx

Originally posted by Gideon
ACstyles, are you asserting that Revan could conjure and launch a Force Storm faster than Kun could put a bolt through his chest?

Since we've never seen Revan perform the Force Storms we don't know exactly how long it takes him to do it, but to answer your question: No, based on given evidence Kun could probably get off faster. However, this is all assuming Exar even does it (he's never resorted to the DBZ blasts in a duel) and he can also control it, and that Revan doesn't simply dodge or block them with a force shield till he kills himself.

My point is the Amulet blasts aren't the be all end all of the duel, as with a very simply application of force speed Revan could probably dodge them and Exar can't simply get in position and blast away like a cannon indefinitely.

Gideon

Force shields are powerful enough to repel amulet blasts? And Revan can evade them when they are said to increase in size and power when Kun gets pissed?

xxXAcStylesXxx

If they can stop blast that have the power to turn the sentient body into pudy and obliterate giant mulit storied temples, then yes. And that shield was done on the fly by an weaker force user then Revan.

Yeah considering when he shot things in TOTJ they were either stationary or huge, and Revan would neither and has the aid of the force to simply dodge them till Kun either stops or kills himself.

Manslayer

Ok kamhal, im sorry im going to be harsh but guess what, you cant debate nor can you form cogent arguements

Originally posted by kamhal
First, if there are some idiots here you must be the top on.
Sadly you hold that title, Nebaris has shown greater intelligence than even you have and guess what? Even chimpanzees has shown greater ways of displaying intelligence than you will ever do

Originally posted by kamhal

Second, greatest WARRIOR don't mean hand to hand combat, means that as a WARRIOR, as a fighter in the battlefield, he was the best, and since he was a jedi/sith, then he was the best with his lightsaber/force/both. As as far as canon goes, THIS is canon. Fair enough

Originally posted by kamhal

"Vrook Lamar was a male Human Jedi Master who fought during the Great Sith War. He served the Jedi Order on both the Jedi High Council and the Dantooine Enclave Council during the Great Hunt"- Wookipedia for you.
Hmm so? Did he met exar kun personally? Did he fight kun at all? Again the idiot quote you gave me was specifically referring to the students THEY trained.

Originally posted by kamhal

You little sh*t, if you talked like this to me in real life i would make eat dust.
Lol try, thats if your hand can even reach my face and guess what, i remember your so fond of telling me you demand respect, Well your highness, beat me up = you lose respect from every body including me and i thought you would be smart enough to realise that your breaking the law if you even attempted to do that so pelase do not justify your actions

Originally posted by kamhal

ESPECIALLY when you are attacking me for no reason at all.
Its not no reason, there is. you ARE an idiot especially from what iv been through with you in the past
Originally posted by kamhal

You are bias person for sure so i think it's stupid to continue this. By the way, Vrook said "the sudent we had ever SEEN" By the way its THE students THEY trained. And exar kun was a pussy as a student compared to what he is as DLOTS. And if you can actually even comprehend stuff which you cant, You would have realised in-universe characters are fallible
Originally posted by kamhal

By the was, this is from adjunta pall to you: "So much power...it is bliding" or "The force is so strong in you human"- Adjunta Pall to Revan. Hmm did ajunta met palpatine? Did ajunta meet kun? I never denied revan is very powerful

And styles i concede on saying kun > revan. Just putting sensed into this ****** im argueing with

kamhal

You are funny. I don't even remember who you are or what i talk to you. You see, i have plenty of things to think in my life, so i don't have "room" to remember conversations from a chat some months before, especially when i am talking about such trivial subject (since star wars and this forum is just a very very very small fraction of my life).

Second, i start getting rude after you call me "idiot", "fool" and "moron". So, you are accusing of being rude after you used verbal offenses 3 times in a row? lol, lol and lol.

Third, again i reply, vrook said ALL the students ALL the masters from the dantoine council had ever SEEN, not TRAIN.
Anyway, at least you can understand Canderous' statement, what is a good start.

So, since this is anakin and revan vs maul and kun, i am still saying that the first team wins. So, unless you came with the amulet's crap, you can't denie their victory.

Gideon

Wasn't Kas'im's blast telekinesis? If so, that makes it fundamentally different from an 'energy blast' like Kun's amulet. It's kind've like Force pushing Force lightning (a feat that I can't recall in recent memory).

Assuming this happens, it would likely just piss Kun off, which in turn would increase the size and lethality of the blasts themselves.

Manslayer

Originally posted by kamhal
You are funny. I don't even remember who you are or what i talk to you. You see, i have plenty of things to think in my life, so i don't have "room" to remember conversations from a chat some months before, especially when i am talking about such trivial subject (since star wars and this forum is just a very very very small fraction of my life). Well im kadesh btw
Originally posted by kamhal

Second, i start getting rude after you call me "idiot", "fool" and "moron". So, you are accusing of being rude after you used verbal offenses 3 times in a row? lol, lol and lol. I said that because you are using quotes to prove revan > exar which is ambigious, Yes it is debatable weather or not if one is stronger than the other but the point is the quotes you gave can be debated on. And lol lol and lol? I thinks lmfao is the better phrase to use
Originally posted by kamhal

Third, again i reply, vrook said ALL the students ALL the masters from the dantoine council had ever SEEN, not TRAIN.
Best student we have seen - vrook, The key word is "have seen" and as i said, exar isnt good as a student. He is far more powerful as a DLOTS

Originally posted by kamhal

So, since this is anakin and revan vs maul and kun, i am still saying that the first team wins. So, unless you came with the amulet's crap, you can't denie their victory. Lets see, assuming exar takes on anakin with his amulets, revan on maul, Anakin gets killed getting blasted by the amulet while revan annihiltaes maul with the force.

Then its revan vs exar kun which i am not going to touch up on at the moment

xxXAcStylesXxx

It was called "A wave of force energy."

And its rather irrelevant if it was a TK attack or an visible physical manifestation of the force ie: Force Lightning. The force is the force, Kuns amulets are still "Force Energy" no matter what form they take, and as long as its that then it can be blocked by the force as well. The same goes for force lightning.

A perfect example of this in action is in Ep3 when Yoda stuffs the Sidious's force lightning and you see that the lightning isn't actually touching his hands and you see waves of blue light coming from Yoda's hands, its a force shield, using the force to block the force

And whats to stop Revan from again blocking and or moving? The limit of power we've seen with Kun's attack was killing the Sith Wrym and blowing a hole in the temple wall, we've seen force shields from weaker force users then Revan stop blasts that would liquidate them, and could blow apart a 20 story temple, Revan is in no real danger here. Meanwhile, Kun continues to lose control of himself to the point that it becomes lethal to him to even perform the attack.

kamhal

Your kadesh, so?

Ok, next time i disagree with your i will starting calling whatever i wants. Agreed? By the way, that is what i call "irony", and more then that, i would rather prefer roftl then lmao... "my ass out"? Completly nonsense or at least gay to me, but let's forget the acronymes...

Yeah, right, at most this would piss anakin off and making him blast exar kun. You know, the best tactic to defeat anakin is not pissing him off, because his anger focused in an opponent means sure dead to most of characters, pheraps even to exar kun.

IOU

did anyone actually notice how the totj comics make regular blasterfire look nearly as deadly as the amulet blasts in some panels?

xxXAcStylesXxx

Its artist interpretation (a crappy artist to fit with a crappy writer), which is why when we see anther force user (Ulic) do an amulet blast it looks completely different from Kun's.

ThoraxeRMG

Revan and Anakin

Borbarad

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
Um according to whom now? Please give me some substantiated evidence on Exar Kun other then that whole "he performed like a master-swordsman" crap, which could mean he performed on Sera Keto's or Kit Fisto's level. Evidence other then beating a old crab who sucked in the first place.

How about "You're the most formidable student I ever had", coming from a guy who trained Jedi for more than five centuries (Vodo) ? And can you give me some evidence for Revan's uber duelling abilities ?

Aside of that, I love you complete lack of thought about the "master swordsman" title. Kit Fisto ? You're talking about the same guy that was visibly better with a lightsaber than post-AotC Obi-Wan (read "Cestus Deception" wink

? Sera Keto ? You're talking about the same Sera Keto that is the most formidable student of Cin Drallig, mastered a Jar'Kai variation of Juyo and almost managed to kill pre-suit RotS Vader ? Yay !

Can you remind me where Revan brought down Mandalore in hand to hand combat ? He killed Mandalore. Did he slaughter him with a lightsaber ? Did he simply force choke him to death or blast him away with a nice wave of force lightning ?

His "supreme precognitive abilities" ? You're perfectly aware of the fact where this myth comes from ? The Handmaiden mentions that Yusanis had the ability to forsee the development of Battles over months / years. She did draw the conclusion that because Revan was capable of beating Yusanis he must have had even greater talents in terms of precognition. Question: Are the Echani a race of force sensitives nowadays ? I don't think so. That means the ability to predict battles must come from the fact that combat is the foundation of their society.
Ok. They have better reflexes than regular humans but neither real precognition nor any force based abilities. So Revan's "supreme precognition" is based on the fact that he managed to beat some nice strategist with slightly-above-human reflexes in a duel ? Impressive.

And Canderous ? Who did Canderous actually see in battle ? Kun ? Ulic ? Nope. I'm pretty sure that Revan is the greatest warrior Canderous has ever seen in action. What else should be the case ? The only Jedi (or "Sith" wink

that did participate in the Mandalorian Wars, were Revan and his minions. And since none of them was above Revan in terms of skill it's not that much of a surprise that he's the greatest warrior Canderous has ever seen. That's like saying "Sidious is the most powerful Sith appearing in the PT"...

And Malak is how powerful exactly compared to the likes of Kun ? How good is he with a lightsaber ? Really. What have we seen from the great Darth Malak ? He was capable of force choking a Jedi and use force lightning. That puts him on one level with Dooku (at best). His saber skill ? Obviously not enough to deal with Kavar who went to face him and managed to escape alive. Also not enough to deal with the Jedi who took his jaw off. Hell...one might ask why it took him several minutes (apparently) to actually deal with Padawan Bastilla on the Leviathan which led to the escape of his nemesis Revan.
Considering that, one might ask how good Revan is with a lightsaber if he has to go through an "epic" duel with that guy...

Oh. The "Kun is a Padawan" myth again.
Kun was obviously capable enough with a saber to beat his own master who, right after this defeat, claims that Exar was his most formidable student ever. This is coming from the same guy who spent centuries with training Jedi. If Vodo puts Kun above all other students he's ever trained it's pretty obvious that none of them (Knight or not) did even virtually come close to Exar.

Then Kun, during that "not finished his lightsaber training" days did display knowledge of Jar'Kai and Djem So. This pretty much mirrors Anakin in AotC. How far away was Anakin from completing his lightsaber training ? What do you think ? Apparently it was enough to slaughter a village filled with Tusken and go toe-to-toe with one of the greatest duellists of his own era (Dooku, the unquestioned master of the "refinement of lightsaber to lightsaber combat" wink

to an extend where Dooku needed to take a deep breath after having finally dealt with him.

And Revan had more knowledge about the lightsaber forms and actual combat ? Can you remind me where Revan came up with a completely new weapon form and a corresponding combat style. I must have missed that...somehow. Yet I may remind you that Kun's "knowledge sources" are Freedon Nadd, who single-handly f*cked up an entire army (the Beast Riders on Onderon) and Naga Sadow. The latter one is especially interesting since he belongs to the four people (next to Ragnos, Hord and Pall) that Kreia is basically worshipping as if they were gods.

Urm. How the hell would they sense Kun's specific aura in a damn maelstorm of Dark Side energy ? This while they were all focused on creating that nice wall of light. And notice that, despite of the fact that he was hit by the combined power of all Jedi in the Galaxy with the intention to destroy him completely, Kun's spirit still managed to survive that attack. How would Revan even be remotely compareable to that ?

Asking to proof a negative ? Nice idea. Present some proof that Vrook did set one foot on Dantooine before the end of the Great Sith War to meat Kun as a Padawan. The Council there was installed after the death of Vodo. So I really don't see why Vrook should have been there before. Especially since the place seems to have been Vodo's personal training facility. Or did you see other Jedi Masters / Padawans there ?

That would translate into feeling one's power how exactly ?

Again: Asking to proof a negative (Basically: "Proof that there is no defence against such an amulet blast" wink

. One might ask why those amulets are descriped as being "deadly" if one can simply put some defense up against them. One might also ask how an uncontrolled and unfocused amulet blast floored Nomi Sunrider ? And Exar is "harmed" by those amulets ? Yeah. That "being harmed" turns down to think that his hand is burned by using that amulet. I wonder how that matters if he vaporizes Revan and Anakin with a single blast each.

Yeah, right. I wonder what would save Revan from the plethora of powers that he has never heared of and that Kun does possess. Kun's freaking spirit was capable of coming up with attacks (namely that nice snakelike things made out of pure Dark Side energy) that DE Luke (with all defenses Yoda has taught him) can't defend himself against and has never heared about. The same DE Luke that studied the entire Dark Side knowledge of DE Sidious.

And you really think that Kun would even care about some intensified form of force lightning (Revan's force storm) when he was capable of resisting a wall of light attack from Odan and survive an attack coming from all Jedi in the galaxy ? Right. Of course Revan would first need to come up with something like that before Kun blasts him into dust.

Cont...

Borbarad

...cont.

Really. Those Massassi who tried to ran away and were obliterated by Kun's room-sized amulet blasts didn't seem to be "huge" or "stationary". And aside of that I'd like to see Revan "dodging" those beams going by their sheer size.

And Kun kills himself ? Right. After blasting that sithspawn multiple times with intensified rage and amulet blasts he was so close to death that he thought his hand was burned. This is absolutely close to killing himself especially since there is no visible damage done to his hand.

Even if Kun will at some point kill himself if he uses the amulet too much I doubt that will happen before Revan drops dead on the ground.

Yeah. Right. If you show me somebody blocking some force application that is capable of tearing holes into massive walls and that doubles in terms of power with every use of the amulet you would actually have an argument. Until then I'll doubt that somebody would be able to actually block such a blast. DN Luke might be able to pull something like that off...but Revan ? And please don't come up with Kas'im blocking some force TK from Bane. That was one application of force energy and he had enough time to prepare his defence while the wave came rolling in.

And nice that you mention force lightning again. Revan's force storm is some large scale force lightning. I wonder what that would do against Kun. There obviously is a defence against that while Kun can come up with attacks that even Yoda, the most powerful enemy the Dark Side has ever seen (in times of RotS), had no suitable defence against.

Really. Why even bother to argue the amulets and if Revan can block that blasts or not ? Kun can instantly disable Revan's lightsaber (he did that against Luke) and proceed to rip Revan's sorry spirit from his body (he also did that against Luke) with a technique that Luke had no defence against. Going by the fact that Luke had knowledge from Yoda and almost the complete knowledge of DE Sidious I guess Revan also won't be able to defend himself against that. This isn't even talking about Kun's complete mastery of Sith magic which enables him to toss Jedi and Sith around as if they were ragdolls.

This while Revan has precisely nothing to stop Kun. At the very least nothing to actually kill Kun or take him out of the fight. To be honest... I doubt that Kun would even need Maul to win that battle if he can land one sucessful force attack on Anakin to take him out of the fight for some minutes. At least I don't see how Revan and Anakin should be able to actually win this...

xxXAcStylesXxx

Since I currently have no ambition to engage in anther annoying 7 post slap fest with you, I'll probably respond to this in a week or so.

EDIT: Scratch that now that I actually read your response It'll probably be tomorrow night.

Gideon

One thing, Nai. I believe the book in question also credited Luke's coma to the "unleashed power of Kyp Durron" as well as Kun's dark side knowledge.

Borbarad

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
Since I currently have no ambition to engage in anther annoying 7 post slap fest with you, I'll probably respond to this in a week or so.

Since I don't care if you are going to reply or not you might wrap yourself in the warm and comfortable illusion that I do and take as much time as you want before replying. Or don't respond at all. Doesn't make much difference if or when you come up with your next hopeless attempt to debate. Especially since I've read that here:

I was rather amused reading that from you. Because of the fact that you totally refused this argument coming from me in the "Ulic vs the Exile" thread.

ThoraxeRMG

Man, these are fun to read.

xxXAcStylesXxx

And? How do you know Vodo didn't simply train a bunch of scrubs, how do you know he didn't JUST now start training students? Oh yeah we don't, since we have no accurate comparison of what else Vodo has trained, its a rather moot point.

OMG he's better then AOTC Obi Wan, wowzas, wasn't he just a Knight who hadn't yet perfected Soresu and hadn't evolved into the defensive master he is in ROTS? Yep.

Um, no. Anakin completely dominated the duel and the only reason it lasted that long was because she kept running, and Darth Vader was largely playing with her, and other then that he proceeds to own her master with one hand. Now does Kun equal that? Or does Kun equal better then AOTC Obi Wan Kenobi? Or does he equal Sora Bluq, I'm STILL waiting for you to quantify this little "Masterswords Man" crap.

NEC, says it plain as day.

No, seeing as being able to predict battles months in the future is impossible (I don't care what Wookie says) without the aid of the force it can be surmised that the ones who could perform this feat (which coincidentally where the highest of the Echani Generals) where force sensitive. And considering the Echani had faced Revan in the Jedi Civil War they likely saw his power first hand, thus allowing the Echani and Brianna to create their opinion.

And able to perform drains and was described as you conveniently ignored as nearly unstoppable. And other then in that instance he was being boosted by a Dark Side space station combined with the power of the individual Jedi Knights he was draining.

I guess Sidious sucks cause Yoda managed to escape alive. I guess Vader sucks cause Luke managed to escape alive, I guess Luke sucks cause Sidious managed to escape alive, I guess Yoda sucks cause Dooku managed to escape alive. Do you see where I'm going here? You don't know what extenuating circumstances happened in that battle, thus you can't form a correct conclusion on Malaks skill from that battle other then it was formidable enough that the leader of the Jedi Guardians whos specialty is Lightsaber combat failed to beat Malak and had to run.

Other then your omitting facts and the Databank only says that it was a lightsaber that did the deed, which could mean Revan himself did it. Again your trying to form baseless conclusions off incomplete information.

Other then I can leave that area in about 4 seconds after Bastila confronts Malak...again moot point.

That guy who as previously stated happened to be described as "nearly unstoppable."

Dude...he was.

Again...who the f*ck are they? What type of power did they wield? What would it have been like if Revan was trained by Vodo? Would he still hold that opinion? I'm waiting for you to elaborate on this further.

No, sorry using duel blades on a whim once is not Jar'Kai.

So wait Kun is now on par with AOTC Anakin Skywalker who could push Dooku to the extreme limits of: taking a deep breath! Thats cool.

I wasn't aware that creating a lightsaber made you powerful. I also wasn't aware that people (you) seem to think a style consists of slamming your saber up and down like a retard beating a pinata. Other then that he had what at most 4 months to practice with his new style against students who weren't even in the same league as him.

And guess who creamed his pants when he saw Revan? Ajunta Pall, who was being blinded by Revans sheer power. Revan has knowledge from places Kun's never even seen (Malachor) and from Korriban and he was a Dark Lord for 5 years unlike Kun who had a year to learn the Dark Side.

You can't be serious? Kun's spirit wasn't being attacked, the Jedi were obliterating the surface of the planet, Exar as a spirit not being bound to the physical world was not harmed by the firestorm. However he was trapped by the Wall of Light erected around the planet. So big whooped he sorta survived and attack he wasn't attacked by and was chained to a planet for all eternity.

One might note that we've already been through this...One might also ask when have those blasts been put up against a foe who can put up an force shield to defend against it.

And whats to save Kun from the plethora of Dark Side powers that HE'S never heard off, ie: EVERYTHING Revan learned from Malachor, you seem to be forgetting that Kun's dark side knowledge is limited to Naads notes on shit he learned from Sadow, Sadow's notes and one Sith Holocron. Oh Wow, that compares to and I qoute "a PLANET SIZED sith training ground."

xxXAcStylesXxx

Oh you mean the same thing Aleema did to Nomi...

Luke, who had a whole few months of training under Yoda who logically didn't teach him a defense for "mundane Sith power #56" and who logically probably only taught him a defense for Force Lightining as that was Sids signature power, and what beat Yoda. And the same Luke who had a few weeks of reading Sidious books and learning a few powers, ya real powerful. Also he had KYP helping him.

Yup Kun would just shrug this off:

http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=8&page=070
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=8&page=071

And Odan whose dieing words were "I'm old!" is the apex of power? Get real.

Been dealt with

Its rather irrelevant since they obviously can't/didn't enhance their speed with the force to move and at first stood there and gawked at the fight. Again, force speed, or he could simply JUMP out of the way, since Jedi are capable of jumping very large distances with the aid of the force. Other then that we have no indication of how fast they even travel.

Other then he SAYS he was almost destroyed, and he could BARLEY control it.

Are your blind? KAS'IM DID IT.

One application that he completely blocked, that obliterated a 20 story temple (not punching holes in the walls) and could turn a mans body to putty.

Considering everything we've seen from force waves in the past (KOTOR games) they don't move slow and travel instantly.

You must have missed this quote:

"But at the last possible instant he threw up a force shield to protect himself from the attack."

He had a split second to throw a shield up and it blocked an attack that FAR outshines Kun's amulet blasts, and thats from a weaker force user then Revan. You have no point.

Because he did all this with the aid of Kyp Durron and theres the fact that he'd have to first be able to overcome Revans defenses in the force, which seeing as Kas'im can block attacks that eclipse what Exar did, Revan logically being stronger then Kas'im in the force could do the same. Revan isn't Luke who had altogether 3 months of Jedi training and 2 weeks of Sith, he has at least 18 years of Jedi training and 5 years of Sith training.

Assuming that Luke learned ALL of Sidious knowledge within a few weeks is a ridicules exaggeration and is stretching facts so much that its just plain stupid. And assuming that Luke would have an accurate defense against Sith attacks by simply training with Yoda for three months which mostly consisted of learning the basics is also ridicules, hence the "Not ready are you!"

Revan is NOT Luke, and Exar doesn't have Kyp to back him up, Revan alone was able to overpower a planet drenched in Dark Side energy, perform force storms and had knowledge that made Bane quiver in fear, beat the nearly unstoppable Malak twice, beat Bastila 5 times who without the aid of the Star Forge was able to blow back Juhani and Jolee both, then Revan fought her WITH the aid of the Star Forge boosting her powers to the point she could be struck down and rise again good as new, had Ajunta Pall creaming his pants over Revans power, decimated and Academy full of Sith. Really he's more then a match for Kun.

Um hmm, and who says he mastered Sith Magic? Oh yeah EXAR KUN, I guess since Anakin thinks he's a match for Yoda in AOTC is true huh? Lets not forget there's a plethora of Sith magic and powers that Kun has never even heard off ie: Malachor.

xxXAcStylesXxx

If your going to try and pull of the "nonchalant I don't give a shit" attitude you can't have previously engaged in a 7 post per response debate with me, you obviously do care, and with an almost 99.9% accuracy I can guarantee you will respond with cute little insults to supplement your crap. And I find it hilarious, that you hold the impression I can't debate when you can't even prove me wrong, you form baseless conclusions off incomplete data, resort to insults, use defeated points in debate, omit fact, exaggerate facts and you usually lack a general understanding of what the f*ck your talking about. Way to go! wink

Cause my analogy in this topic is wrong (I never said I didn't make mistakes) They are obviously NOT the same attacks. But I'm glad I pleased you, it means the world to me roll eyes (sarcastic)

Borbarad

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
And? How do you know Vodo didn't simply train a bunch of scrubs, how do you know he didn't JUST now start training students? Oh yeah we don't, since we have no accurate comparison of what else Vodo has trained, its a rather moot point.

Your ignorance of the source material is really astonishing.
He just started to train students ?
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=7&page=009
"That's why I have devoted my live to teaching Jedi Knights..."
Nope. Not really. And use some common sense please. It's extremely unlikely that somebody who devoted his live to teaching Jedi only came across some untalented wannabe-Jedi-Knights. At least he has 600 years of experience with other Jedi which is...urm...ten times as much as everybody who might have given some testament to Revan's skill has ?

Yes. Kenobi must obviously have sucked. Can it be that Padawan Kenobi managed to go toe-to-toe with Darth Maul and kill the Sith ? This a decade before AotC ? Can it be that, according to Dooku's words in AotC, Yoda himself did praise Kenobi's lightsaber skill even at that point ? Can it be that we've seen AotC Kenobi pretty much kicking the ass of Jango Fett, the "deadliest man in the Galaxy" despite of the fact that Jango had fire support of Boba in the Slave I ?

Of course. Almost being beheaded now translates into "playing with somebody". It's pretty obvious that Anakin was the stronger duellist. Still: How many people did you see that almost managed to kill him on equal ground ?

And how should somebody exactly quantify a title ? The point is that this title was only given to people who have earned some extraordinary archievements in the lightsaber combat department. Be it because they mastered multiple styles, created (or helped to create) new styles or because they belong to the best lightsaber duellist of their respective eras.

Instead of attacking that title you might better come up with proof for Revan's uber lightsaber abilities. Obviously the Jedi Council thought that sending two Jedi under the command of Padawan Bastilla would be enough to capture him as it appears from the corresponding cutscene in KotoR. I wonder how they managed to come up with that plan if Revan was indeed so damn powerful ?

That is extremely funny. You might go an tell that to Thrawn who was capable of pulling that feat off. By analyzing his enemies he was capable of predicting every single move they would come up with. Was he force sensitive ?
I know you hate analogies to the real world but predicting battles over weeks and even months was also attributed to the like of Alexander the Great, Hannibal or the Nazi-General Erwin Rommel. It's all a matter of analyzing your opponent and then provoke actions or react in a way that provokes a desired counter-reaction. But maybe all of them where gifted with magical foretelling abilities or they were force sensitives.

Would you please quantify the power boost Malak received from the space station ? Unless you can do that, it's pretty useless to mention it. The "power of the individual Jedi Knights" ? Wow. As far as I remember he just zapped their life energy to heal himself and I don't recall something else being suggested. That of course if Revan didn't decide to destroy the trapped Jedi during the confrontation which would limit Malak's gain of trapping them to refilling his life energy once.

And "nearly unstoppable" ? You mean nearly unstoppable like Durge, Grievous or Tavionn ? The latter one would be a good example how much somebody can "drain" (in this case entire places serving as nexus points for Dark Side energy) without gaining much advantage from it.

The official KotoR page said that it was a Jedi who did it. I quoted that multiple times here before it went offline and I recall having nice discussions about who might actually have done that with the likes of Lightsnake (and I think Escape).

Or you can stay there for 30 Minutes to see what happens. But obviously the way from the point of confrontation back to the Ebon Hawk takes more than 4 seconds not to mention the little discussion with Carth who tells Revan to run because otherwise Bastilla's sacrifice would have been useless.

Kun was descriped as completely unstoppable and the most powerful single entity in the entire Galaxy. KotoR descripes him as being so powerful that he made the ground shake while walking on it. Malak and Revan simply pale in comparison.

How is being "a great Jedi" (Vodo), "one being greater than one of the greatest ones" (going by Nadd), "an immensely powerful Jedi" (Oss Willum), "the most formidable student" of a 600 year old Jedi Master who devoted his life to training powerful force users etc. pp. anything debateable ? I don't want to waste my time on mindless speculation on Vodo's possible oppinion on Revan. One might ask why Revan did even need to search for the Star Forge with all his (estimated) power where Kun was capable of coming up with dark side imbued weapons of mass destruction (like the Dark Reaper) on his own. One might also ask why some of the most powerful items one can find in KotoR are some waste that Kun left behind on Yavin 4.

Another good question to answer would be why Revan has to go and fight the Ancient Sith in the unknown regions after the events off KotoR. They are a threat to him and the Republic ? Notice how the omniscient narrator calls Kun "the darkest power in the Galaxy" (http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=5&page=020), making him obviously more powerful than them.

And I should elaborate further ? You might elaborate further on all the funny statements you've given about Malak and Revan. Malak was "near unstoppable" ? For whom ? Revan was the most powerful warrior of his time ? Compared to whom ?

Obviously Kun knows exactly what he's doing going by the movement patterns he shows here: http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=7&page=031 and the fact how presicely he does hit Vodo's stuff with both blades here: http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=7&page=032

Aside of that he always carries two lightsabers with him which actually dictates that he also may utilize Jar'Kai if he wants. At least I don't have any other explanation for this here:
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=5&page=035

No. I said that he mirrors AotC Anakin's saber skills and that at a time when he "didn't finish his lightsaber training" as you kept repeating. Notice how Mace Windu refers to Anakin, even at that point, as the "most powerful Jedi of that time even becoming stronger".

Borbarad

Yes. Let's again go by the pictures and ignore every bit of common sense. I didn't know that being a lightsaber prodigy (Luke Skywalker) consists of swinging your lightsaber like a baseball bat with all the grace and coordination of a deck-chair. And that's enough to beat the legendary Darth Vader ? I mean...Vader and Obi-Wan also didn't appear as uber duellists in ANH. Maybe we could conclude that it just looks like that because of the limitations of the medium. The way Kun wields his saber during the first fights we see him in (Crado, Sylvar, Vodo) at least suggest that he's one of the more versatile duellist considering how he holds and moves his blade. But of course we might just ignore that observation, like you always ignore the source material where it doesn't fit your oppinion, and conclude that Kun was just slamming his saber up and down like a "retard beating a pinata". Then of course I'd have to suggest that you are a retard trying to debate.

Ajunta Pall creamed his pants so much that he attacked Revan. That's what I call fear. We might, of course, ignore the fact that Pall was completely insane due to the fact that his own blade kept him as a prisoner in his tomb for some thousand years.

And your lack of knowledge is always amusing. Revan had knowledge from Korriban ? The same Korriban Kun already plundered almost 4 decades before Revan's time. Impressive. Malachor ? I'm sure that the knowledge of a place designed to teach students in the ways of the Dark Side is compareable to personal training from Freedon Nadd and the complete knowledge of Naga Sadow.

Let's check the results of that knowledge:
Revan had to search for some ancient Sith artifact, was capable of coming up with some epic scale force lightning (force storm) and went off to fight the remains of the Ancient Sith Empire in the unknown regions.

Kun came up with his own dark-side-powered superweapons, constructed artifacts Revan had to search for, was capable of alter lifeforms as well as create new monstrosities. With apparent ease he managed to freeze the entire Senate (thousands if not tenthousands or millions of beings) and was descriped as the "darkest power in the Galaxy" despite of that remains of the Ancient Sith Empire.

Really. One must wonder why Revan, who you deem to be more powerful than Kun, didn't simply freeze the entire Mandalorian Army and owned them personally, zapped their lifeforce (as Kun did to thousands of Massassi) or walked into the freaking Senate on Coruscant to declare the end of the Republic (as Kun pretty much did). Instead he had to come up with a bloody war against the Mandalorians first and then he resorted to guerilla warfare against the Republic.

Wow. Was it a force attack ? Can you please explain to me how - estimating force attacks don't affect spirits - Kun was able to annihilate Nadd's spirit ?

Excuse me. Was Freedon Nadd a force user ? Kun seems to have blasted him out of existance. Now note that Nadd, even in his "not powerful spirit form" was capable to instakill Ommin and floor Vodo with a force attack while being on the other side of the Galaxy. Notice how that was the same Nadd who managed to defend himself against all Jedi attempts to destroy his presence on Onderon. So was Nadd capable of putting some defence up against force attacks ? Seems so. Did it help him against Kun's amulet ? Doesn't seem to be the case.

How about listing one single of that "plethora of Dark Side powers that Kun never heared off" ? The only power canonically available on Malachor is the force drain - which Kun did know. And Malachor was a storehouse of Ancient Sith knowledge. Notice how Sadow was an Ancient Sith. Notice how Kun was capable of doing far more than Revan could do with all his estimated knowledge. Notice how Kreia, who - in contrary to Revan - did spent years on Malachor still speaks about Sadow as if he was a god.

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
Oh you mean the same thing Aleema did to Nomi...

Some illusions are obviously not compareable to Dark Side energy capable of tearing the spirit of a force user from his body.

You mean Luke, who in times of ROTJ (almost a decade before his confrontation with Kun) was already more powerful than Vader (who was 80 % of Sidious according to Lucas, who in turn was the most powerful Sith the Galaxy has ever seen 2 decades prior to that point) ?
Allright.

Hilarious !
First: Revan on his own is as powerful as 27 force users (including Bane) combined ? (http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=8&page=066)
Second: And Kun is less powerful than untrained 5-year-old Rain ?

Very funny, IDIOT.

No. Malak is the apex of power. With his last words being "I'm nothing". Indeed.

They can move fast enough to catch Kun trying to run away from them who logically should also be able to use force speed. And those are energy beams. How fast do you think they travel ? As fast as blaster bolts maybe ? Ever seen a Jedi jumping out of the way of an already fired blaster bolt with the size of a small room ? I didn't.

After blasting how often ? And I wonder why Kun should have any problems using them after he gained Sadow's complete knowledge. Or do you want to tell me that Sadow also was "almost destroyed" by and could "barely control" the power of his own invention. I doubt it. And notice how Kun later wears two amulets meaning he obviously did construct another one. Makes much sense, if the use indeed almost destroyed him and he still could barely control one amulet.

If he completely blocked it than how was the temple obliterated, eh ? Logic isn't your friend, right ? Kas'im obviously blocked a part of that force attack or redirected it without control - hence the temple landed on him. As you might notice Kun shoots constant beams which aren't compareable to a (rather undirected) wave of force energy.

Yes. We do indeed SEE force waves in KotoR. An observation that contradicts your conclusion that they hit targets instantly.

Borbarad

I have no point ? As it seems you are the person here who desperately tries to compare apples to oranges to draw some random conclusions. Bane's force attack was obviously not only directed at Kas'im but as well against the temple. Hence you first would need to quantify the amount of destructive energy that was really armed at Kas'im. Enough to crush a man ? I'm pretty sure that amulet blasts with the ability instantly desintegrate Massassi (as well as burning nice holes into that Sithwyrm) are a little bit more powerful than that. But of course...the temple. You might again tell me if more power is needed to collapse a building or to instantly vaporize some nice part of the structure.

Urm. No. According to the JA trilogy Kyp and Kun did attack Luke simultaneously. Kun on his own was still powerful enough to electrocute Gantoris as you might remember and the attack that ripped Luke's spirit from his body was also coming from Kun as Kun summoned that "snakes" made out of Dark Side energy personaly.

And thanks for ignoring the fact that Kun at that point was a half-mad 4,000 year old spirit who was obviously far away from his original shape.

Yeah. Right. Because Kas'im is able to defend himself against some TK attack he must also be able to defend himself against Sith magic attacks coming from Kun. Against attacks that post-DE-Luke had no sufficient defence against. Of course we might ignore the fact that Revan on board of the Leviathan had not much denfence against Malak who simply put him into force stasis. If that's how far Revan's uber force defence goes I'm pretty sure he's not going to survive five seconds against Kun. And some notice: You're still comparing apples to oranges.

Right. Revan is not Luke "grandchild of the force" Skywalker. I don't recall Revan beating Vader who is 80 % of the "most powerful Sith ever". Correct. I also don't recall when Revan was trained by the "greatest Sith Lord in history" or the "greatest enemy the Dark Side has ever known" - Sidious and Yoda.

But of course. Training time. First I might ask where Revan ever had "Sith training". I don't recall some Sith being around to train him. Can it be that Revan is mainly self-taught. Like Luke ?

In this case your stated amount of "training" for Luke is rather incorrect. Because going by this he had a rather short amount of time training with Yoda, followed by the study of Obi-Wan's diary and then six years in which he was mainly searching for new knowledge to study. During that time he did meet people like C'Baoth, the Nightsisters (natural force users), Mara Jade (who was partitially Dark Side trained), Lumiya (and Flint) and of course Sidious. Apparently Obi-Wan's spirit also kept feeding information to Luke for a decade after ANH. And of course Luke discovered the Chu'unthor on Dathomir which was a complete Jedi Academy on board of a starship. And after that he of course had access to Sidious knowledge base, personal training form the Emperor, knowledge he discovered from Ossus, Vodo's holocron and so on and so forth.

I guess Escape had a reason for telling you that he's not entirely sure about Revan being able to defeat DE Luke. And the reason is that despite of relative short amounts of actual training Luke did constantly search for knowledge and - unless most force users - he constantly needed to apply his knowledge which made him stronger.

Following your line of thought Luke should have never been able to survive against Vader (and technically Luke did defeat him in a duel) after less than six months of actual force training. Notice how Dooku who was a prodigy and had 8 decades of experience of force use and lightsaber combat was not able to stop RotS Anakin Skywlaker with his 13 years of actual training.

It is ? But assuming that Revan learned everything stored in a planet size storehouse of ancient Sith knowledge in a few years is not ? Double-standarts much ? Luke says himself that he has read Sidious Dark Side Compendium. And that contained pretty much everything that Sidious knew about the Dark Side. Want to contradict Luke's own words or official canon ?

Wow. I personally recall Yoda saying that after the confrontation with Vader Luke would be a fully fledged Jedi Knight. He was not ready ? Ready for what ? I wonder what he learned in the six months between ESB and ROTJ that suddenly made him ready. And if six months are enough from "not ready to face Vader" to "able to defeat the guy who's 80 % of the most powerful Sith Lord in history" I wonder what additional 8 years of study have done to Luke then.

This is the living Kun. The darkest power in the Galaxy. Not his 4,000 year old half-mad spirit version who was still powerful enough to toast one of Luke's students and force choke the rest of them all together.
Without backup.

No. Revan was determined enough to control his emotions and not fall to the Dark Side of Malachor instantly. Notice how Kun did walk around on Korriban without instantly succumbing to the Dark Side. Which is exactly the same if not a more impressive feat. Unless Malachor was filled with the remains and spirits of hundrets of Ancient Sith Lords.

KotoR force storms are just area effect force lightning. Hope you finally get that into your head.

Wow. Feat Wars doesn't help you to win arguments, you godforsaken NOOB. Kun in his prime was the darkest power in the Galaxy. F*ck Malachor and f*ck the Star Forge, I'd say. Kun was more powerful than that as it seems. Kun was loaded with enough force energy to "make the ground tremble". Kun was powerful enough to freeze the entire senate with a handmovement. Kun was powerful enough to force drain thousands upon thousands of Massassi. What did Revan do compareable ? Defeating some people charged up by a Dark Side artifact which was not as powerful as Kun himself was as stated by the omniscient narrator.

I really wonder why Revan didn't manage to conquer the freaking republic in 5 years with all the power you want to give him where Kun waltzed into the Republic Senate and came up with dark-side powered weapons of mass destruction which would have been able to do the job on their own, if Ulic hadn't betrayed him. Really. What do you want to argue here ?

No. The obvious FACTS dictate that Kun mastered Sith Magic. And "plenthora" is now equal to "one" (force drain) - and that one was even known by Kun. Impressive. I wonder why Revan never used that powers.

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
If your going to try and pull of the "nonchalant I don't give a shit" attitude you can't have previously engaged in a 7 post per response debate with me, you obviously do care

For your information: I'm a cynic. That should be explanation enough for an educated person. You better go and check some lexicon.

That's nice. Somebody whos argument are constructed of false analogies, ad hominem arguments directed against characters, a outrageous lack of common sense and logic, filled with lies, ignorance of the source material and a general lack of knowledge about the SW universe not to mention double-standarts wherever one can look...should behave like the nice little noob he is and STFU.

Darth_Glentract

Exar and Maul should take this. Maul held the esteem of Dooku, which along with all other evidence I believe puts him in a position to give Anakin a hell of a time. Exar should finish Revan fairly quickly and aid Maul in killing Anakin.

kamhal

Since when Vodo was, well, great? He trained students for 600 years, so what, actually there was anyone especially powerful he had trained before kun? Yes?
Second, your posts that try to show kun's lightsaber skill really missed the point, i don't know since when try to break a stick with a lightsaber with a technique ressembling more a lumberjack then a knight would make him "great" as a duelist...

That's why the narrator said exar and ullic were completly even, that's why he ran from ossus without facing the cathar who scared his face forever, that's why he never did anything especially awesome.
Also, that's why a mandalorian that fought with him said Revan was the greatest warrior the galaxy had ever seen or why, 3 years after the end of the GSW Duron quel-droma, after a vision from the future and from Darth Malak himself said "Sith so POWERFUL"

So, it takes more then 4 seconds, so what? Now, since malak is much stronger then bastilla, she have to be defeated instantanly? And as far as know as soon as they started fighting you see Bastilla in great trouble. So, this proofs what exactly?
Yes Malak, lost his jaw, again i ask you what's the problem. You know, Malak have been on war for 7 years with just 1 year break, and after all these years he is the Dark Lord. Anakin didn't lost his arm? Or didn't he got a huge scar from Ventress? This makes him weak? No, because when you are in battlefield years and years without stop, it's natural that sometimes you get some scars or marks of war. At least it wasn't a cathar who can't even defeat a jedi with no connection to the force who made his mark of war...

Ok, which was the part of "despaired attack" that you didn't understand? The jedi were losing badly for Revan, that's why they made such act, and if Bastilla was in the strike team was due to his battle meditation, who helped the strike team to enter on his ship. Besides, who said revan wouldn't beat them all?

Wasn't kun unable to use the force against he massasi?...

So, are you saying that:
- Luke had more power then vader?
- It was due to kun's power, and not Kyp's one, that Luke entered in coma?

First, cannonly Revan explored malachor's surface draining knowledge and getting artifacts. Anyway, i don't even know what you try to prove, cannonly it's stated for darth bane, the great, that Revan's knownledge was so great that he even know things about the force that even true sith lords shouldn't try. By the way, you accuse revan for lack of knowledge. Let me ask, did exar kun, the great sith lord, ever make a force lighting laughing

?
Also, i don't remember, to see kreia worshiping sadow at all...

Right, kun blasted a force ghost with his amulets blast. It's a shame that he couldn't do the same with the POWERFUL Aleema...

Cannonly Revan is lightside, and canonly as a lightsider, Revan turned Adjunta Pall back to the light (even stated by kreia, for her despise, in kotor II). So, canonly Adjunta Pall was blind as hell for Revan and never attacked him. Besides, even if he did, this proves nothing since Revan blasts him to hell without amulet blasts...

Really, which ones?

Which ones? Besides, even if he did it, this would make him inferior? No, just a strong desire to learn.

Right, let me guess, with sith alchemy from Sadow? Impressive. This will surely give him the victory...

So, to use force stasis in non-force users is something great... It's a shame he couldn't do the same to the other jedis around...

Biasness at his top. So, kun was more powerful then the star forge? It was this that the narrator said laughing

?

That's why he was killed, he lost the war and the mandalorians were defeated. It seems that you are suggesting kun actually conquered the galaxy.

So, all the humans or siths who are or were in korriban were also exceptionally powerful individuals, since kun did the same as everybody else around...

Really, get a lfe.

So, a Revan who was being retrained since his mind was destroyed=revan at his best... Right, that's why malak was scared to death from him when had to face him and that's why he lost to him when revan had fully restore his power... Your argumentation is amusing to say the lest.

Did the name Aleema ring a bell? Hmm...

Also, when anakin "enters in the zone", he matches the skill from yoda or sidious to say the least (see how he beats dooku). So he would definitly kick maul's ass. And since kun can't kill revan, or at least as easily as you suggest, they are both doom.

Manslayer

Right, kun blasted a force ghost with his amulets blast. It's a shame that he couldn't do the same with the POWERFUL Aleema...

Kamhal that wasnt an amulet blast or it would have dissintigrated aleema instantly. Just because it came out of the same hand doesnt logically mean its an amulet blast.

Even if it did it just merely knocked aleema out, Kun had no reason to kill her nor was he angry which would have made the blast lethal if he was

Because how the hell can it be an amulet blast if it could tear a sith wyrm and burn a hole through a massassi temple not kill a weakling whom has no defence against the amulet blast.

Kun most likely did the same technique that aleema tried to attack him with

Borbarad

Originally posted by kamhal
Since when Vodo was, well, great? He trained students for 600 years, so what, actually there was anyone especially powerful he had trained before kun? Yes?
Second, your posts that try to show kun's lightsaber skill really missed the point, i don't know since when try to break a stick with a lightsaber with a technique ressembling more a lumberjack then a knight would make him "great" as a duelist...

Can you actually read my post before trying to argue with me.

The narrator said that both of them were master swordsmen hence none of them was able to claim an advantage in the duel. I don't see any reference to force powers here. And even then Nadd had already declared that Ulic is "one of the greatest ones" refering to all force users of the past (so just 21,000 years). Not impressive ?

Lmao. You mean Sylvar who he effortlessly owned with a single gesture ? Right. And he never did anything awesome ? Hilarious assertion, noob.

Where did Canderous Ordo ever fought with Exar Kun ? The Mandalorians were Ulic's servants and we shouldn't forget that this happened 40 years before the KotoR games. How old do you think Canderous is ?

It took Dooku 30 seconds to deal with Jedi Master Obi-Wan Kenobi. And Malak was fighting against a Padawan. I wonder why he didn't trash her with his suggested uber-force powers and uber lightsaber mastery.

You noticed how this "Cathar" was physically strong enough to cleave through a freaking helmet and that "Jedi with no connection to the force" happened to be one of the finest duellist the Galaxy had seen in his time ?

What part of the fact that they had super powerful Jedi Masters (as suggested here) like Kavar, Vandar, Vrook etc. to do the job did you miss ? But instead of sending them they did send a Padawan.

This is why he vaporized some of them with amulet blasts and force drained all of them in the end ?

Luke definetly had more raw power than Vader. And yes...it was Kun's attack that knocked Luke out.

The omniscient narrator stated that Kun is the "darkest power in the Galaxy" at a time where Malachor and the Star Forge did obviously already exist. Darth Bane is a joke compared to Exar Kun. And the DSB notes that Exar was a master of force lightning. So ?
And Kreia ? Once again: "If you were to face an ancient Sith Lord in combat, you would learn that we are as children playing with toys compared to the prowess of the old Masters." This in reference to Tulak Hord, Marka Ragnos, Ajunta Pall and...Naga Sadow.

It's a shame he actually did knock her out completely with a single Sith magic attack. Did you somehow miss that ?

Wow. I remember to have written that Pall was far away from "shitting his pants" (as it was suggested here) when Revan did visit his tomb and I mentioned that he was a 5,000 year old and completely insane spirit.

The Dark Reaper, obviously.

Kun constructed another Sith amulet, this aside from the Dark Reaper. This all in less than six months. I wonder what kind of knowledge Revan had coming close to Kun's understanding of the Sith teachings.

Notice how I was just comparing Revan's knowledge base to that of Exar Kun. The mere fact that Kun came up with monstrosities and machines that kept spreading terror throughout the Galaxy for decades or even millenia after his death is a testament of his actual power.

It's nice how you forgot to notice that he used in on a rather large amount of people. And aside of that: You really think that Sylvar, Nomi and Cay were the only Jedi present when Kun entered the senate ? Somehow I doubt that...This is not even mentioning the fact that Revan never did show anything compareable to that.

Give me your personal interpretation of the term "darkest power in the galaxy". Since when was the SF "powerful" in any way when refering to Dark Side power ?

Urm. You notice that Kun was capable of marching right into the Republic Senate and declare the end of said Republic after six months of war. That's a point Revan never reached despite of the fact that he was waging war against the Republic for almost five years. So again I can only ask: What is it, you want to argue ? That Revan did better against the Republic than Kun ? Obviously not. That Revan has shown us more power than Kun ? Obviously not. So what ?

Excuse me. If Malachor is such a dangerous place because of some Sith knowledge stored there, how much more powerful must the Dark Side be on Korriban, the planet which hosts the spirit of all Sith Lords and some rather powerful Dark Side artifacts. And by the way: How many people did you see entering Korriban and return without falling to the Dark Side or being killed ?

Go get a brain.

You argumentation is just sad because your wasting all that precious space with your idiotic nonsens. Did Malak freeze Revan on the spot ? Yes or No ? Yes ? Hell...

Did you notice how Kun was not using his amulet against Aleema ? But instead some blast of Sith magic like he pretty much says himself...

Right. According to Lucas Anakin was not able to take it up with Sidious since only Mace and Yoda were able to do that job. Maul almost killed Sidious once. So Anakin would definetly not kick Maul's ass. He would most likely win that fight but not fast enough to help Revan against Kun.

Darth Sexy

Oh good lord not this again Nai. Exar Kun had 6 months to a year max to learn certain teachings from Sadow. Mind you, only Sadow, because he didn't pillage and plunder Korriban. Revan learned VARIOUS ancient sith techniques by PLUNDERING Korriban, by PLUNDERING Malachor V, and finding the Rakata. Sorry Nai but in terms of Darkside knowledge, Revan is miles ahead of Kun.

Borbarad

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Oh good lord not this again Nai. Exar Kun had 6 months to a year max to learn certain teachings from Sadow. Mind you, only Sadow, because he didn't pillage and plunder Korriban. Revan learned VARIOUS ancient sith techniques by PLUNDERING Korriban, by PLUNDERING Malachor V, and finding the Rakata. Sorry Nai but in terms of Darkside knowledge, Revan is miles ahead of Kun.

Oh right.
Give me a list of what he canonically got from Korriban and Malachor V. After this you can give me some the source where he displayed his uber force knowledge.

Oh wait.
We saw what Revan did find on Korriban and I can't remember where he found anything that would have increased his knowledge about the Dark Side. So I guess we can pretty much leave Korriban out here.

And Malachor ? Let's see. Canonically the only technique ever taught there was the force drain. Of course. It was a "storehouse of Ancient Sith knowledge". A storehouse that did include what exactly ?

Really.
What about coming up with something to substantiate your ideas instead of throwing the same bullshit at me again and again. What I see in the source material is Kun coming up with all kind of nasty new Dark Side powers, Sith magic attacks and Sith Alchemy devices / monstrosities while Revan's display of Dark Side knowledge is limited to roasting some aliens who can't use the force with some area-effect-force-lightning. F*cking impressive.

Darth Sexy

Originally posted by Borbarad
Oh right.
Give me a list of what he canonically got from Korriban and Malachor V. After this you can give me some the source where he displayed his uber force knowledge.
Gee I don't know, the force storm, the thought bomb. He plundered a planet full of secrets, you know the same planet that gave Nihilus his force drain, that gave Traya hers? POD stated that Revan learned a LOT of the ancient sith techniques. Kun specialized in sith magic and alchemy because he learned from Sadow and ONLY from Sadow. Revan's knowledge>Kuns. And when's the last time we needed someone to display their power or uber force knowledge to be more powerful? That's like saying Sidious is stronger than Luke because his feat of the force storm might have been more impressive than anything Luke has done. Or hell, Jacen's flow walk.

Oh wait.
We saw what Revan did find on Korriban and I can't remember where he found anything that would have increased his knowledge about the Dark Side. So I guess we can pretty much leave Korriban out here.
Hmm yes, except for the fact that Korriban corrupted him and revealed the Star Forge to him. Except the fact that he plundered the tombs, and had his sith minions plunder the tombs. You're right, Revan had all of this knowledge and all of these opportunities under his belt but he didn't use them.

Oh that's cute Nai, playing the ambiguity card. A storehouse of ancient sith knowledge means exactly what it says. Ancient Sith Knowledge. Revan's dark side and ancient sith knowledge>>>>>>>KUn's.

I don't need to come up with any more ideas, because you'll just throw your pathetic ambiguity card at me. There's nothing at all to suggest that Kun knew more than Revan, especially because Kun only learned from Sadow. You're basically arguing that Revan went to Korriban, THE Sith base, and learned nothing, which is as ignorant as you can possibly get. Furthermore, you're also arguing that we don't know what he learned from Malachor, except ancient sith knowledge, and the knowledge that made Nihilus and Traya unstoppable. Please tell me what new powers Kun created, that didn't come from the sith magic or sith alchemy? Kun's knowledge is just that, sith magic and sith alchemy. Revan knew ancient sith techniques that made the BOD shit their pants. Please, Kun has nothing on him.

Borbarad

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Gee I don't know, the force storm, the thought bomb. He plundered a planet full of secrets, you know the same planet that gave Nihilus his force drain, that gave Traya hers? POD stated that Revan learned a LOT of the ancient sith techniques. Kun specialized in sith magic and alchemy because he learned from Sadow and ONLY from Sadow. Revan's knowledge>Kuns. And when's the last time we needed someone to display their power or uber force knowledge to be more powerful? That's like saying Sidious is stronger than Luke because his feat of the force storm might have been more impressive than anything Luke has done. Or hell, Jacen's flow walk.

I have to say this is really hilarious.
I ask you to substantiate your ideas and list something that Revan learned besides the force drain, which was also known to Kun. What do you do ? Come back to me with the freaking force drain. Braindead much ?

Sadow had access to all knowledge in the time of the Ancient Sith since he was an ancient Sith. What can a "storehouse of Ancient Sith teachings" offer, that the second most powerful guy in the "Golden Age" of the Ancient Sith Empire can't ? It's getting boring to repeat that question over and over again. Really. Especially since you're obviously not able to answer it and come back to me every time with "the force drain".

Wow. More braindead bullshit from Darth Stupidity.
Korriban revealed the Star Forge to him. Oh...and that gave him Dark Side knowledge how exactly ? He plundered the tombs of the Sith Lords and found some nice gimmics. That gave him knowledge how exactly ? And his minions plundered what ? The same tombs that Revan plundered ? Urm...yeah.

Wow. Would you descripe a pyramid as a "storehouse of knowledge about Ancient Egypt" ? Yes ? Can it be that a Pharao who lived in that time would still have more knowledge about that time than somebody who discovered a pyramid and managed to read anything written inside of it ? Hell...must be hard to use some freaking common sense. I wonder what a planet-size storehouse is good for if Sidious could write down all Dark Side knowledge available in the SW universe in three f*cking books and Revan was capable of forging it (uber abilities) into one freaking holocron (which Bane later discovered). Yeah. That makes so much sense. In fact it makes as much sense as saying Revan > Kun because of...urm...you still have shown me nothing to substantiate your personal opinion. Must be hard to actually come up with some argument instead of compiling texts out of bullshit and nonsense.

Yes. The same Sadow which, according to Kreia, belonged to a group of people that would wipe the floor with the KotoR-era epitomes of power. That same Sadow who lived in the time the knowledge on Malachor V, that storehouse of Ancient Sith knowledge, did come from. The same Sadow who was the second most powerful guy around in an Empire filled with Dark Side users at the "Golden Age" of said Empire. One doesn't need to be a genious to figure out that Sadow might be able to offer a larger amount of more valueable knowledge. Which is proven by the fact that Kun was obviously able to come up with all sorts of things that Revan couldn't even imagine in his wet, wannabe Sith Lord dreams.

You're talking about the same "Sith base" that Kun personally ran through with learning nothing as you want to suggest ? The same "Sith Base" that had sealed tombs that nobody did set one food in before the events shown in the KotoR games and that - as we see in said games - Revan did gather no knowledge from. Who is ignorant here ? As it seems...you...who simply ignores facts.

Nihilus and Traya were unstoppable ? Does "Jedi Exile" ring a bell ? And it just took all the Jedi in the freaking Galaxy to stop Kun - oh wait...not even that really "stopped" him.

Wow. Revan made people shit their pants that needed around 30 people to come up with a force attack (force storm) that DE Sidious was capable of creating on a wider scale by snapping his fingers ? Damn impressive, dude. I wonder how this is compareable to Kun's creations who made the PT Jedi Order (Dark Reaper) "shit their pants". I wonder what Revan had compareable to zap the life-force from tenthousands of beings, kill Jedi on the spot, freeze thousands of people and WHY THE HELL he never resorted to actually using it when he was in desperate need to do so multiple times ? Why didn't he even come remotely close to archieve what Kun did archieve while he had 10 times as much time to do so.

Again...I don't see any answer but just your meaningless comments on how uber Revan was. Wake up, KotoR fanboy.

Darth Sexy

Originally posted by Borbarad
I have to say this is really hilarious.
I ask you to substantiate your ideas and list something that Revan learned besides the force drain, which was also known to Kun. What do you do ? Come back to me with the freaking force drain. Braindead much ?
Which was also known to Kun? Really? Are you talking about that ritual he had to use the entire Massassi race for? Sorry to burst your bubble, but he didn't know the force drain. In fact it's unlikely he knew the force storm, the thought bomb, or any of the other ancient sith techniques, considering he never STUDIED ANYTHING FROM THE ANCIENT SITH other than a sith alchemist. This his hilarious indeed Nai.

Sadow was a sith alchemist, a sith magician. Don't even start with this "he had access to everything". As I see it, Ragnos was the last powerful DLOTS before the end of the Golden Age, so to say Sadow had access is foolish, not to mention he wasn't in the Golden Age. So once again, Sadow can throw bricks and turn things into other things. Why? Because he's a sith alchemist, and a magician. Meaning that's ALL he does. What did Kun learn? Sith Alchemy and Magic!

Gee, considering the fact that Revan was actually the first one to plunder Korriban and the Valley of the Dark Lords, finding nice goodies gives him sith knowledge. I won't debate whether he talked to certain spirits or so, but Korriban was "IT", in terms of finding power from the ancient sith. But what you're saying is, Kun learned from the works of one ancient sith while Revan had access to much MUCH more in terms of all of Korriban and Malachor V, but he didn't learn anything. Once again, Revan learned VARIOUS ancient sith techniques, while Kun specialized in sith magic/alchemy. And yes, his minions plundered the tombs after Revan.

As opposed to "wow Kun learned from one guy's notes and constructed an amulet, he's l337". Yet again. Learning from various sources>learning from one source. Unless of course the quality of Sadow's teachings>anything found on Korriban and Malachor V, which isn't the case. Then again since you're so busy waiting for me to allegedly come up with an argument, I'm still waiting on you, especially since all the facts point to Revan's knowledge base being superior.

Oh so because Kreia said ancient sith, that means all the ancient sith? We've seen how Ludo and Sadow fight, don't count on it. I'm not going to discredit her statement but she did have love for the ancient sith, and there's no proof whatsoever that Sadow was skillful at ANYTHING other tnan alchemy and magic. And for the millionth time dipshit, Sadow wasn't the second most powerful anything. Where were all these wonderous dark side users? Oh right, nonexistent. Ragnos apparently was the last one and after he died, his minions became useless. Sorry but I would choose all of the graves of the dark lords over Sadow's alchemical teachings. What exactly did Kun come up with? Creating his leeto beasts? Revan was within a hairsbreadth of destroying the Republic by force. Kun couldn't even get close even with Ulic NOT betraying him.

That Revan gathered no knowledge from? A nice way to see a failing argument, by talking about an amnesiac during his quest to figure out who and what he was. Guess what big boy, his teachings alone surpassed any of the teachings on Korriban. I don't see sith lords trying to learn sith magic and alchemy in order to destroy the galaxy.

Uh no, they USED all the jedi, that doesn't mean they needed them all. I love this stupid old Antedeluvian argument about "they required ALL the Jedi". No, they used all the Jedi to make sure Kun stayed in his cute little temple. And yes Nihilus and Traya were unstoppable. Lovely argument though, seeing as how only a wound in the force would be able to stop Nihilus. We don't have too many of those huh?

Awwww Nai how cute. Trying to weaken Revan's credibility with irrelevant misdirection. Since when was Sidious in this argument? Sidious is miles above and beyond Kun and Revan, but thanks for the useless post. And yes, Revan used a force storm that BAne needed the brotherhood of darkness for. While Kun was what, a master of force lightning. What a winner. Guess what though, Kun's creations have nothing to do with 1 on 1 combat. That's like saying Jacen is a force god because he can flow walk. And Kun froze the senate, WOW. I guess C'Baoth is a force god as well. And if you really are trying to tell us that Kun achieved more than Revan, you're dumber than I thought. Kun was nowhere near Revan in achievements, much less knowledge.

So again, you have no argument. "Wake the **** up" TOTJ fanboy. IF I want someone verbally fellating Kun with a pitiful argument, I can contact IKC.

Darth_Glentract

xxXAcStylesXxx

I concede that point but, really Vodo teaching an unknown amount of students, with an unknown amount of power is somehow better then what anyone has said about Revan? If were going to go that route theres a 5000+ year old spirit that says Revans raw power as a padawan was literally blinding him.

Seriously. Again, if your gonna go the route of twisting little facts to suite your argument then I will to, how is it then that Maul managed to own your little "leet" TMP Kenobi AND his teacher who was noted as being on par with Mace Windu, at the same time? How is it then that Maul managed to kill previous said master with relative ease? Kenobi went toe to toe with Maul because Maul let him, and his arrogance cost him the battle, simple as that.

Big whoop, Yoda praised his skill and yet he still got his ass beat by Dooku, and a few years later when he fully masters Soresu he becomes an actual threat to Dooku in saber combat. Oh and he beat Jango Fett...and a kid...OMGZ he is teh bestest EVAR! Really where are you trying to go with this, we can logically assume that ANYONE at Obi Wans level or above placed in the same situation could have mimicked whatever Obi Wan did and thensome.

Accept she didn't, and we CAN assume that he was playing with her as he WTFPWNS her master the noted lightsaber duelist Cin Darllig with one damn hand.

Why are you asking me to prove your bullshit?

And how in the hell does at the time the quote is given to Exar Kun, someone who hasn't even completed his lightsaber training under Vodo fit into that little category? And I'll ask you again where the f*ck does that leave Exar Kun on the totem pole? Is he at Kit Fisto's level? Or is it Tinn's? Or maybe Windu or Anakins level (hell no)? I'm STILL waiting.

Did I claim Revan was 1337 omfg in lightsaber skills? Nope. But is he logically pretty damn good? Yup, Considering he destroy's the 12 Dark Jedi by himself you HAVE to fight the three guarding the entrance after coming from Naga Sadows tomb, then your alone when you enter the Academy and 9 Sith attack you right away (your allies are tied up fighting the other guards) he does all this AFTER coming off a battle with two Terekanteks (sp) whom one alone takes a squad of skilled jedi hunters to even confront, battling Uthar Wynn the headmaster of the Sith Academy THEN fighting and Redeeming Yuthura Ban. Now either he does all this because of his amazing force abilities allow him to not even be touched and he doesn't even tire, or he's as I said pretty damn good with a lightsaber.

Other then that, theres the face that how good you are with the force directly correlates into lightsaber ability and since where given constant quotes of Revans force power to the point that it was blinding and you could literally see the force moving around him, we can logically assume that based of this he's pretty damn sweet with a lightsaber. Aside from that were told by Vandar that Revan had an insatiable appetite for knowledge and power, why then would he limit this to only knowledge of the force and NOT lightsaber form and style? Finally he was whored off to so many Jedi Masters and your going to tell me he learned nothing of saber combat? I'd assume he was around but a little less then Dooku in lightsaber combat.

Your habit of twisting things is getting quite annoying. First off we don't know how many Jedi were on the strike team as were never shown the their starting group only the final FOUR Jedi left to confront Revan. Also every Jedi shown in that scene pops in late which we can assume they were held up by the other large number of Dark Jedi on Revans FLAGSHIP. With that said we don't know how many died on the way to get to Revan there could have been 20 Jedi in that strike team for all we know. We also don't know the particular rank of the other three Jedi left, they could have all been Masters. We do know Bastila was only choosen for the mission because of her Battle Meditation. What I wonder is how long it takes you to come up with these ridicules points?

While Impossible may have been to strong a word, your really gonna sit here an compare all the Echani high generals to f*cking THRAWN?

Hate to break it to you but all the Generals you mentioned were fighting against forces they were relatively familiar with, Alexander and the Persians, which behaved in an very predictable manner, and Alexanders tactics of slam the front with the Phalanx and circle around with the Companion calvary were revolutionary for that period in a time were you were you had a set battle field that you weren't expected to leave. As well as Hannibal and the Roman legion.

But I'd like you to show me were Alexander or any of the others mentioned predicted the entire course of a war that could span years? Oh thats right...they didn't/can't.

Would you please quantify the power boost Malak received from the space station ? Unless you can do that, it's pretty useless to mention it. And "nearly unstoppable"

We've been through this...to the point that it made him "nearly unstoppable"

The "power of the individual Jedi Knights" ? Wow. As far as I remember he just zapped their life energy to heal himself and I don't recall something else being suggested.

The Sith Lord had grotesquely adapted the Rakatan device to draw energy directly from chained Jedi captives. - Databank

Using a mysterious power source as yet undiscovered (complete Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic to learn more), Darth Malak possesses extraordinary dark side Force powers out of proportion - Wizards of Coast

If your going that route then Revan has the skill to toss his saber and fend of Malak at the same time.

If you can get anther to back you up on it then I'll concede the point but till then an offline site is not a reputable source.

Not that it even matters, notice how Malak easily put Bastila in a stasis for a long ass time all the while fighting with Revan at the same time. Bastila was the true prize and the objective and Revan was only an extra bonus, Malak felt no real threat from Revan at the time (he doesn't even think he'll return to the Lehon, and he thinks the droids on the Star Forge would kill him.)

Where was he called completely unstoppable? That doesn't even make sense as he was you know...stopped. Single most powerful entity in the galaxy at the time while impressive, so was Revan.

Tangible God

Actually, he didn't think the Star Forge droids would kill him, as he didn't know Revan was there yet. He didn't even believe the Star Forge's entire garrison would stop him.

xxXAcStylesXxx

I'm glad we have the mental capacity to differentiate hyperbole from fact and hyperbole from a ridicules source, you do know your quoting a random Rodian merchant...

.

That is where you fail. Once again your stretching and exaggerating things, unless you simply want me to assume that every strong force user got sent straight to Vodo, if thats the case why the hell is he training Sylvar and Crado and why isn't Ulic Qel Droma there?

One might ask why your so damn stupid. Seeing as you missed the entire point of Revans fall and the Jedi Civil War, Revan wasn't trying to create weapons of Mass Destruction to rip apart the Republic he was trying to keep the infrastructure relatively intact, so when he did take over he'd have a stable economy, army, and legions of force users to do his bidding. One might ask what the f*ck Exar Kun was trying to accomplish, What is his goal? To take over the Republic? He certainly was failing at that especially when he went around blowing up its star systems. Was it to kill all the Jedi? Didn't even come close. Was it to recreate the Sith Empire? Ending the Republic is all fine and dandy but then what...he's left with a half destroyed galaxy, and a cult of force users on Yavin following him with no real government or economy to follow that. Looks like he fails again. At least Revan like Palpatine had the brains to understand that you can't destroy and tear apart the only galactic wide governmental body if you want to rule said galaxy. Especially if you don't even have your own govt. to replace or relocate it.

Yes I'm sure that lightsaber crystals that don't respond to Dark Side users would be a real help to Exar Kun. Use your damn head for once.

This is getting too damn annoying, that comic was written what 10 or so years BEFORE KOTOR2. And Kreia says that the True Sith at that time were inactive, and no one in the known galaxy knew of them, not even Exar Kun that statement in the context its in and in light of newer sources makes it rather irrelevant.

Oh wow he can swing sabers and he can slam them on a stick...BAWH GOD KANG! HE A JAR KAI MASTA!!! Really little buddy , if were gonna base arguments on arsine assumptions like that, then Revan is too since if you give him anther saber he can swing em around all fancy and perrdy like...so he two must be a Jar Kai masta.

Oh yes Anakin Skywalker at that time was the most powerful Jedi...thats why he got his ass kicked by Dooku and Yoda proceeded to take a giant shit on Dooku's head...

QUOTE=8990232]Originally posted by Borbarad
Yes. Let's again go by the pictures and ignore every bit of common sense. I didn't know that being a lightsaber prodigy (Luke Skywalker) consists of swinging your lightsaber like a baseball bat with all the grace and coordination of a deck-chair. And that's enough to beat the legendary Darth Vader ? I mean...Vader and Obi-Wan also didn't appear as uber duellists in ANH. Maybe we could conclude that it just looks like that because of the limitations of the medium. The way Kun wields his saber during the first fights we see him in (Crado, Sylvar, Vodo) at least suggest that he's one of the more versatile duellist considering how he holds and moves his blade. But of course we might just ignore that observation, like you always ignore the source material where it doesn't fit your oppinion, and conclude that Kun was just slamming his saber up and down like a "retard beating a pinata". Then of course I'd have to suggest that you are a retard trying to debate.

Take Kuns nuts out your mouth and wake up, the ONLY thing were shown is Kun slamming his saber up and down like an idiot, in his other duels were at LEAST given two panels of movement so we can assume something else went on, however with this panel the only thing were shown is Kun as I said swinging lika a retard beating a pinata. Get it? What we can deduce from that scene is Exar ignited his saber and proceeded to start hammering down. Thats NO indication of a style or form what so ever, what do you not get about it? Is Kuns jizz covering your eyes again?

Canon says Ajunta Pall didn't attack Revan. Canon says Ajunta Pall was redeemed by Revan. Your ignorance of the source material is really astonishing. And he wasn't insane, he bowed and spoke to Revan, gave him details of his life of meeting Revan before and of his sword and in the end he was redeemed. Thats hardly the traits of an insane person. One might ask why Kun became a raving lunatic after only 4000 years yet Pall was able to stay sane far longer then that?

Darth Sexy has already handled this, Kun went to Korriban fell and left, unless you have some source saying other wise then I'd advise you to shut the f*ck up on the matter, Revan however went to Korriban and plundered it, Ajunta Pall even recalls seeing him before.

I'm not going through this as Darth Sexy has dealt with it quite nicely. Kun's knowledge doesn't even compare to Revans.

Oh you mean in the middle of an elaborate ritual in which he had to give his life to even attempt...yeah that'd be helpful.

And yet it still went on...for 4000 years no less...go figure...

xxXAcStylesXxx

Your boring me, play KOTOR2 again. Kreia sums it up nicely with "The Mandalorian Wars were wars of conversion" the point of that was to break as many Jedi to his side without alerting the attention of the Jedi. And KOTOR and every other source says it quite nicely that Revan had steam rolled over the outer rim and was on his way to to start taking the Mid Rim and Core Worlds. Guerrilla tactics...no why the hell would he need that when he had a LIMIT LESS supply of ships and droids. Your ignorance of the source material is really astonishing.

The amulet allowed him to do so...

Revan > Naad. Simple as that. Revans defense > Naads defense.

DS has been through this, me repeating would simply be a rehash.

Revan spent 5 years off and on going to Malachor and Korriban. And no she doesn't speak of Sadow as a god, the only thing relevant she says about him is he nearly won the Great Hyperspace War. Your ignorance of the source material is amazing.

You mean Luke who 3 years prior to DE after being owned in the force by the Witches of Dathromir says that if Vader wanted to he could have done the same...maybe just maybe...Vader was holding back...

Adding Bane probably not, the large majority of the Brotherhood were complete weaklings Bane notes in POD that one of them was so weak and insignificant that he didn't even remember his name, let me remind you that the almost all of the Brother hood consisted of barley training Sith students. It'd be something close to that though.

Context my oh so unintelligent friend...context...

Oh the same Kun who was still drawing on the light and couldn't access his force powers...which the narrator states when he tries to defend himself from Frisbees.

You can't make an assumption then assume I agree with it dipshit. Considering a Jedi can dodge a blaster bolt easily regardless of the size of the blasts Revan should be able to do the same.

And yet he never even attempts the same attack he did on Yavin, meaning unleashing that type of attack is too much for him and he has limits with it, does that exclude him from the other attacks he has with it? No, and I never claimed it did. But the point is he isn't going to sit perched up and start shooting.

I thought it was made quite clear but it seems I'll have to spell everything out for you.He completely blocked what came at him, the wave wasn't aimed directly at him the fact that its called a "wave" is a testament to that, and the book describes it as a:
"Massive shock wave"
Adding to that given what we've seen from the wave it travels outward in every direction, Bane simply points his forward.

Instantly again may be to strong a word but fast enough that the opponent is given a split second to react, yeah. Which is still faster then any indication were given off Kuns beams. As I've said Revan can simply block them or move out the way.

"The concussive blast had enough power to shatter every bone in Kas'ims body and pulverize his flesh into a mass of pulpy liquid." - POD pg 245

Your Ignorance of the source material is amazing.

Blowing up a 20 story temple > putting holes in the walls.

Yeah.

Revan could.

So wait your gonna take Kun in his prime compared to a padawan Revan who doesn't even know he's Revan with little training in the force. Your wasting my time.

The force is the the force, no matter what form its in. Understand son?

Yeah, but Revan has a FAR superior knowledge base then Luke or Kun.

And Lukes scraps compares to a planet full of knowledge and the plundered tombs of Korriban plus one on one training with the many of the most powerful Jedi masters in the galaxy...no.

Oh you mean the Dark Side Compendium which contained 2 books and a half written third of a planned 13...Yup EVERY thing Sidious knew...

Your Ignorance of the source material is amazing.

Which correlates into him knowing how to stop Sith powers how...

And Revan does the same.

DS dealt with this.

xxXAcStylesXxx

Been through this, other then Revan turned against the Republic 3 years after he'd been a Sith Lord what Exar was doing was destroying the Republic what Revan was doing was taking it over. Two different objectives. And notice how Revan again had the brains to NOT try and attack the entire Jedi order as a whole like Kun did. Instead he converted them to the point where they could gather in mass and simply burn him away.

Been dealt with by DS. And as he said I've yet to see every Sith lining up waiting to learn Magic to take over the galaxy.

Except Revan has knowledge AND ridiculously more natural talent and raw power.

Darth Sexy

A few things....

1. Ajunta Pall was actually around 3,000 years old by the time he met Revan, so while he was still sane, Kun ended up older.
2. I don't find Bane's force wave particularly impressive, considering it was a 35,000+ year old building, and obviously Kas'ims force shield could block it.
3. While Revan's knowledge surpasses Luke's, it's not by a long shot. Luke learned under Palpatine and then pillaged Ossus.

Darth Hord

Actually Borbarad there was one planet after the leviathan and there a was fourth jedi in the strike if you close during the cutscene one can be seen running behind the other jedi. Not that it really matters.

Darth_Glentract

Holy shiznit! I don't think I've every seen a post that long.

Darth Sexy

Originally posted by Borbarad
LMFAO. First rule of the Ancient Sith Empire: The strongest shall rule. Obviously Sadow and Kressh are the most powerful people in the Ancient Sith Empire after the death of Marka Ragnos. And Sadow ? Really. The guy was able of floating three planets with tangible (!) illusions that did pretty much ensure his complete victory over the forces of the Republic and Emperess Teta all at once and this in a single day. He would have brought the Republic down without Gav's betrayal. The guy created solar-flares and had a space ship capable of detonating star-systems. Not powerful enough ?
Hey dickhead, quantify the strongest, because other than Sadow who threw a brick, there was nothing impressive about THOSE ancient sith. You're right, he could create illusions. Golly gosh, that means Aleema was a force god!!! He would have brought the republic down? Really? Not really. Yes, he used his sith ship, he's wonderful, but uber powerful? You make me laugh.

Once again, Kun did this this and that, which attributes to his personal 1 on 1 combat how? The machine would have exterminated anything? Good lord Nai, the terms "bullshit assumptions" don't even begin to describe your post. Kun is the only sith that successfully attacked Coruscant, YAY!!! Revan was the only sith that got uber close to defeating the Republic BY FORCE, if not for Malak, which was STATED to be inevitable. Looks like your argument is shit.

He failed to counter battle meditation? So you're trying to downplay him with unknown facts. I can just as easily say Exar Kun got his ass kicked by a tree. His achievements? Far beyond anything Kun has done, unless you call training 20 dark jedi converts to take on the republic. lol.

Gee, Kun tried to destroy the galaxy with sith magic, got close? Nope. Revan did it his intelligent way, and was within a hairsbreadth, you lose again.

No, they didn't suggest they needed them all. Perhaps you're unaware of how Revan was captured, so before making yourself look uneducated, i'm going to allow you to replay the game. And yet again, Brand said all of the jedi that came before him, from the beginning of time, would make sure Palpatine never came back. Does that mean they needed them all? No. Moot point dumbshit.

Please, do tell oh intelligent one, who is capable of stopping Nihilus' force drain WITHOUT being a wound in the force? Oh that's right, nobody. You don't know what technique the dark reaper used, considering Nihilus' technique was unique and learned on Malachor V.

Read POD jackass. Revan's holocron taught Bane the force storm, thought bomb, and "various sith techniques that even sith masters feared to use".

Says the one whose argument includes downplaying the other character. I am not trying to debate with you, i'm clearly winning a debate with you seeing as how you have no common sense right now, and are still focused on the antedeluvian "kun pwns" crap, that was put down a while ago. Perhaps this would be a GREAT argument to use on Janus' forum.

I'll stfu when you try being smarter, jackass.

Darth Sexy

Oh, and as for NAi making up shit about Kun and Nadd being the strongest Sith in 21,000 years or whatever that is, B-U-L-L-S-H-I-T. Get a clue Nai.

Darth Sexy

OR it means Revan wasn't a full sith, and created his own sith empire to fight the "True Sith". He had no need to recreate or even find the ancient sith empire. Yes, Ragnos crowned him, wow. I guess he's more powerful than Sidious, because Sidious wasn't crowned. At that time he was the most powerful force user in the galaxy. Then Revan came along, destroyed Kun in ancient sith knowledge, to establish what needed to, and basically destroyed the republic and the Jedi, seeing as how there were less than 100 Jedi left after the JCW. Yea, Kun's ejeet. Tool.

ThoraxeRMG

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
OR it means Revan wasn't a full sith, and created his own sith empire to fight the "True Sith". He had no need to recreate or even find the ancient sith empire. Yes, Ragnos crowned him, wow. I guess he's more powerful than Sidious, because Sidious wasn't crowned. At that time he was the most powerful force user in the galaxy. Then Revan came along, destroyed Kun in ancient sith knowledge, to establish what needed to, and basically destroyed the republic and the Jedi, seeing as how there were less than 100 Jedi left after the JCW. Yea, Kun's ejeet. Tool.

I rofled.

Borbarad

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Hey dickhead, quantify the strongest, because other than Sadow who threw a brick, there was nothing impressive about THOSE ancient sith. You're right, he could create illusions. Golly gosh, that means Aleema was a force god!!! He would have brought the republic down? Really? Not really. Yes, he used his sith ship, he's wonderful, but uber powerful? You make me laugh.

Yeah. Let's see.
Sadow came up with tangible illusions that even fooled Jedi and obviously conquered three planets for him at the same time totally f*cking up the Republic. He was able to create solar flares and rip the core of stars off. Of course...with his ship, yes. And who did built that ship ? And yes. He would have brought the Republic down as this was exactly what he was doing before Gav betrayed him and shot his meditation sphere in case you didn't notice that.

And quantify the strongest ? Going by the fact that even some remaining Ancient Sith was capable to wipe all live on Ambria out with a single Dark Side attack I wonder what you think how powerful those people really were.

Hey, idiot. You are aware of the fact that Ulic told the Republic how to stop the Dark Reaper because he knew that every Jedi who would try to do so without his advice would die ? He does the same thing again with Anakin 4,000 years later. So where do I assume something ? It's stated that without Ulic's betrayal nobody would have been able to stop the Dark Reaper so obviously it would have crushed any opposition.

Yes. If we ignore Kun with his weaponary and Sadow with his illusions than Revan is the only Sith that got close to defeating the Republic by force. Looks like your argument is even worse than shit.

Are you really that stupid ? Kun did come close to it in less than six months and only failed because Ulic did betray him twice (first time passing the information about the Dark Reaper to the Republic, second time telling them were to find Kun). As you may have noticed Ulic, just before being captured (betrayed by Aleema), was about to destroy the Republics entire fleet with a single movement. The Jedi were unable to stop the Dark Reaper and normal people weren't any thread for Kun. Who should have stopped him exactly, huh ?

Oh they didn't suggest they would need them all ? Then why did they bring them all ? Does make much sense. Really.
And I know that Revan was capture after being hit by "friendly" fire from Malak's ship. The point is that they obviously suggested a small strike team would be enough to do the job. Something that can't be said about Kun otherwise they wouldn't have came with all Jedi in the Galaxy. And I said they wouldn't need them all. They still suggested that Kun would be powerful enough to need them all. In the same fashion Luke in JK:JA says that it might need the entire Academy to stop Ragnos. Most likely that wasn't the case even for Ragnos in flesh and bone. The point is Luke did suggest that Ragnos might be that powerful from what he knew about him.

Please, oh dumb idiot. Tell me where this does have any influence on this fight. Kreia stated that Nihilus draining ability can't be learned. So he didn't learn it and Revan also didn't learn it. It's simply a part of Nihilus nature and - quite similar - to the nature of the Exile.

I think you should read POD, dumbass.
"Revan had discovered many of the rituals of the ancient Sith, and as the Holocron's avatar explained their nature and purpose, Bane could barely wrap his mind around their awesome potential. Some of the rituals were so terrible-so dangerous to attempt, even for a true Sith Master-that he doubted he would ever dare to use them"

Where do you see "force storm" here, eh ? The secret of the thought bomb was stored inside the holocron, yes. So what ? That would help Revan in a one on one how exactly. Will he set up a ritual and then kill Kun with an attack that, pointing it out once again, 5-year-old Rain plain and simply resisted ? And notice how it was Bane who feared those rituals and not "any Sith master".

I'm not downplaying Revan. I'm just pointing out that he had never shown us anything in terms of force use or lightsaber mastery that would put him above Exar Kun.

Wow. So you're not trying to debate while trying to debate and are also not debating while suffering from the delusion that you're winning a debate that you aren't even participating in since you aren't debating. Haha.
And that "crap" was "put down" a while ago ? By whom ? By source material ignoring idiots like yourself who can't even get a grasp on facts ? Guess who cares.

Why should I try to be smarter ? A lobotomized monkey would cream you in a debate but I'll might give you a call if I'll ever have a reason to remove 90 % of my brain - you might have a chance then.

If you will ever learn how to actually read, you might have any base to try and attack my points, idiot.

I said that Nadd called Ulic "one of the great ones" clearly talking about the force users that lived up to the day he's giving that comment and then adds "but there is one even greater than you" refering to Kun. That obviously (at least according to Nadd's oppinion who saw Sadow in action and new the powers Ragnos did wield) puts Ulic on par with the most powerful force users that lived until that day and it puts Kun above them. Not to mention that Ragnos himself did pretty much state that Kun is on his own level. The same Ragnos which command over the Dark Side the DSB labels as "frightening".

Oh what ? Since Revan's knowledge was only coming from the ancient Sith (see POD quote above) I guess he was in desperate need to find Ancient Sith knowledge since without that he would have been...nothing.

Now Ragnos was the most powerful Sith Lord the Ancient Sith Empire had ever seen. But you might also come up with a convincing argument (hahahaha) about how Revan would have archieved more Ancient Sith knowledge compared to the most powerful Dark Lord of the Ancient Sith Empire. The same guy who put Exar Kun on his own level. No...you can't do it.

And please. Did you ever read the DE / EE comics ? Ragnos was personally inviting Sidious to join the spirits of the Dark Lords on Korriban since he dedicated his life to the Dark Side. So, despite of your (as always) WRONG claim, Ragnos did pretty much grant Sidious the Dark Lord title.

And it's nice that you want to grant credit to Revan for the entire JCW. I guess you missed how that went on for additional 5 years after Revan was redeemed already in which Nihilus and Sion did hunt down all the Jedi, correct ? Going by the fact how Dantooine and Coruscant were still intact at the beginning of KotoR, I doubt that there were less than 100 Jedi in the entire Galaxy at that point. Which, even then, would also be pretty funny, going by the fact that Revan already had 1/3 of the Republic's / Jedi's forces under his command after the Mandalorian Wars (adding ships and droids from the SF when he started the JCW).

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Borbarad
And I know that Revan was capture after being hit by "friendly" fire from Malak's ship. The point is that they obviously suggested a small strike team would be enough to do the job.
You are also ignorant.

The Jedi Council was so desperate during the events of JCW due to the devastating onslaught of the Dark Lord Revan that they were willing to take any kind of risk to stop him and hence they even were willing to sacrifice Bastilla Shan in the process.

Now, Revan has defeated several high-profile combatants in his life and that Jedi strike team was also no match for him. Remember when Revan later on actually fought against Bastilla Shan in a single combat, he defeated her 4 times in a single duel on the Star Forge despite of the fact that Bastilla Shan was being aided by the power of the Star Forge itself. Which means that Revan was so formidable that the Sith Bastilla Shan (who stated that she is more powerful then all but few Jedi Masters) even with the support from the Star Forge was still no match for him. Now what chance did that Jedi Strike team had against Revan?

And do not forget that Darth Malak attacked Revan at that time for a good reason. He actually wanted to avoid 1 on 1 confrontation with Revan.

And also remember that only 4 Jedi went to confront Darth Sidious, who was too damn powerful as well. And what happened? Sidious decimated 3 Jedi Masters quickly and then gave Windu a fight of his life.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Something that can't be said about Kun otherwise they wouldn't have came with all Jedi in the Galaxy. And I said they wouldn't need them all. They still suggested that Kun would be powerful enough to need them all.
That was a different scenario. Kun was also being supported by millions of massasi warriors and chances of surprises were also there, so it seemed to be a logical decision to send thousands of Jedi to exterminate him along with his masassi followers. And the Republic fleet simply bombed the shit out of Yavin 4.

Originally posted by Borbarad
In the same fashion Luke in JK:JA says that it might need the entire Academy to stop Ragnos. Most likely that wasn't the case even for Ragnos in flesh and bone. The point is Luke did suggest that Ragnos might be that powerful from what he knew about him.
There is a theory that when you do not know about a thing but it is still considered to ber very powerful and dangerous, then it is always wise to take maximum measures of preparation to deal with such a threat.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Please, oh dumb idiot. Tell me where this does have any influence on this fight. Kreia stated that Nihilus draining ability can't be learned. So he didn't learn it and Revan also didn't learn it. It's simply a part of Nihilus nature and - quite similar - to the nature of the Exile.
Once again you have shown signs of ignorance. The technique that Nihilus demonstrated was an ancient technique and it was not created by him. He probably learned that technique from Malachor V. But since he was a victim to his "terrible hunger" and he could not control it, so this helped him in amplifying that technique to a whole new level.

Originally posted by Borbarad
I think you should read POD, dumbass.
"Revan had discovered many of the rituals of the ancient Sith, and as the Holocron's avatar explained their nature and purpose, Bane could barely wrap his mind around their awesome potential. Some of the rituals were so terrible-so dangerous to attempt, even for a true Sith Master-that he doubted he would ever dare to use them"
And logical deduction in this case is that Bane started to demonstrate impressive feats after he recieved training from Revan's holocron, so this means that he learned most of that shit from Revan.

Originally posted by Borbarad
And notice how it was Bane who feared those rituals and not "any Sith master".
The problem is that Revan's holocron was only accessed by Darth Bane and no other Sith Lord, so we would never know.

Originally posted by Borbarad
I'm not downplaying Revan. I'm just pointing out that he had never shown us anything in terms of force use or lightsaber mastery that would put him above Exar Kun.
Really? What has Kun done so impressive with the Saber? I accpet that he was an exceptional Saber duelist and he even invented the Double-bladed Light Saber, but still his skills were largely untested.

Revan has shown his impressive melee skills in following scenarios:

A) He single handedly killed two large Terentatek beasts (who are heavily armored and are immune to Force attacks) and that too easily with is blade.

B) He destroyed Yusanis (the most powerful Echani warrior ever known) in a single combat.

c) Revan played a major role in the destruction of an entire Sith army stationed on the Star Forge. He also killed a high profile "Sith Lord" who during the battle of Rakata Prime had become nearly unstoppable in a saber duel.

Also, Revan was acknowledged to be a Prodigy in the end of KOTOR by the most famous Jedi Master of his age due to his impressive feats in the battle of the Star Forge.

In all, Revan has fought against more deadly opponents then Kun has actually dealt with. Only Ulic Qel Droma was a true worthy opponent that Kun has faced in his entire life.

Originally posted by Borbarad
I said that Nadd called Ulic "one of the great ones" clearly talking about the force users that lived up to the day he's giving that comment and then adds "but there is one even greater than you" refering to Kun. That obviously (at least according to Nadd's oppinion who saw Sadow in action and new the powers Ragnos did wield) puts Ulic on par with the most powerful force users that lived until that day and it puts Kun above them. Not to mention that Ragnos himself did pretty much state that Kun is on his own level. The same Ragnos which command over the Dark Side the DSB labels as "frightening".
You forgot to note that whoever have faced Revan, that person has recognized his immense power. Let me provide you a list of some popular Sith, who have talked highly about Revan:

The Ancients:

- Ajunta Pall (DLOTS)

And other Ancients have never met Revan, so they never knew about his true power.

KOTOR Age:

- Darth Traya (DLOTS)
- Yuthura Ban
- Darth Malak (he recognizes Revan's true power in the end)

Furture:

- Darth Bane (DLOTS)

Think before you say something.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Oh what ? Since Revan's knowledge was only coming from the ancient Sith (see POD quote above) I guess he was in desperate need to find Ancient Sith knowledge since without that he would have been...nothing.
Revan's knowledge came also from the Malachor V, a world that was believed to be once inhabited by the True Sith.

NOTE: True Sith are not the same Ancients that we know about.

And where did Kun got his knowledge from? I guess that he too was very desperate for Ancient knowledge because without that, he too would have been... you know... nothing! roll eyes (sarcastic)

Originally posted by Borbarad
Now Ragnos was the most powerful Sith Lord the Ancient Sith Empire had ever seen. But you might also come up with a convincing argument (hahahaha) about how Revan would have archieved more Ancient Sith knowledge compared to the most powerful Dark Lord of the Ancient Sith Empire. The same guy who put Exar Kun on his own level. No...you can't do it.
Did Mark Ragnos visited Malachor V during his life and also did Kun?

The so called most powerful Ancient Sith Lord did not had the balls to invade the Republic in his age! roll eyes (sarcastic)

Talk about impressive display of power and knowledge! idiots!

Originally posted by Borbarad
And please. Did you ever read the DE / EE comics ? Ragnos was personally inviting Sidious to join the spirits of the Dark Lords on Korriban since he dedicated his life to the Dark Side. So, despite of your (as always) WRONG claim, Ragnos did pretty much grant Sidious the Dark Lord title.
Ragnos have never met with Revan. So get over it!

Originally posted by Borbarad
And it's nice that you want to grant credit to Revan for the entire JCW. I guess you missed how that went on for additional 5 years after Revan was redeemed already in which Nihilus and Sion did hunt down all the Jedi, correct ? Going by the fact how Dantooine and Coruscant were still intact at the beginning of KotoR, I doubt that there were less than 100 Jedi in the entire Galaxy at that point. Which, even then, would also be pretty funny, going by the fact that Revan already had 1/3 of the Republic's / Jedi's forces under his command after the Mandalorian Wars (adding ships and droids from the SF when he started the JCW).
Revan was the one true warrior who turned the tide of the entire battle of the JCW. The Sith were unstoppable and Bastilla Shan had joined the Sith. Now Revan was the only person who re-discovered Star Forge, went over there, beat the shit out of all the Sith there and redeemed Bastilla Shan after kicking her @ss too and then kissing her as a sign of victory.

Darth Hord

If you try to fight a conventional war with ships,troopers,etc. then of course it will take longer time to conquer it so you have complete control. When Sidious was killed on the second death star war which was the battle of endor. The battle of Endor was already 4 years after the battle of Yavin. So here we see the most powerful sith lord having trouble keep his galactic empire which was THE government of the galaxy at that time.Now if Sidious were to conquer the galaxy the convential way it would take a years to accomplish.During the Great Sith War Kun aswell as Ulic were in the galaxy already in the galaxy Ulic and the Krath were on the planet Empress Teta and Kun Yavin 4. So they would obviously have an easier time to get to Coruscant and forced the senate to surrender. Revan and Malak were out of the galaxy. You also have to recognize that Revan wanted complete control of the galaxy so it can be strong enough to defend against the true sith.

Darth Sexy

Originally posted by Borbarad
Yeah. Let's see.
Sadow came up with tangible illusions that even fooled Jedi and obviously conquered three planets for him at the same time totally f*cking up the Republic. He was able to create solar flares and rip the core of stars off. Of course...with his ship, yes. And who did built that ship ? And yes. He would have brought the Republic down as this was exactly what he was doing before Gav betrayed him and shot his meditation sphere in case you didn't notice that.
Hey guess what Nai. Sadow fought a total of.... 4 Jedi? Golly gee, he's superman! Nor do you know who built that ship, nor do you know if he would have brought the republic down, which is one of the dumbest assumptions you've ever made, but hey you're on a roll. He caught the Republic by surprise but he didn't have nearly enough forces to win, and when the rebels started to fight for the republic, it was over... Regardless of what Gav did. He didn't come close to defeating the republic, that's your assumption. Revan was the only one who came close.

Did she vie for power in the ancient sith community? DO you know ANYTHING about the sorceress? No you don't. All you know is Sadow's biggest "force" feat is throwing a brick at Ludo. Those two didn't show a damn thing except Ludo shaking a mountain with his anger. I'm sure they both were powerful, but as powerful as you're making them out to be, nor is there any proof that they're uber powerful.

And if they left the dark reaper alone? What would have happened? Oh right, nothing. Please show me where it's stated that without Ulic's betrayal, the jedi would have been wiped out..

Uh no there's nothing to ignore. What you're saying is "I like Sadow and Kun more so lets ignore Revan even if he DID achieve more". Revan's tactics+force>Kun's weaponry and Sadow's illusions. Sadow attacked the Republic like an ignorant fool, hoping to wipe them out with illusions. Kun thought 20 jedi converts and Mandalorians would wipe out the republic. Revan converted his fellow jedi soldiers to the sith side, then brought the war to the republic, and was within a hairsbreadth of conquering it. Unlike your bullshit, what I said is quoted by the omniscient author. Sorry, looks like YOUR argument worse than shit, if you call this babbling nonsense an argument.

No dumbass, it's your ASSUMPTION that Kun came close and ONLY failed because Ulic betrayed him. "OMGZ Kun is going to destroy the REpublic with 20 dark jedi converts and some Mandalorians LOL". Sorry Nai, no. Ulic was about to destroy the Republic's entire fleet? My my Nai I didn't think you were the type to twist facts. Where is there ANY evidence Ulic was about to destroy the ENTIRE Republic fleet? There was no ENTIRE Republic fleet there, and what remained ON Coruscant, was caught by surprise. As soon as the Jedi arrived, it was over.

Same reason why Brand suggested he was going to use every Jedi who ever lived before him to make sure Palpatine never comes back. Does that mean he NEEDED everyone, or better safe than sorry. You don't really understand the details about capturing Revan, considering it was doing a space battle, so if thats your argument go back to the drawing board. And they DIDNT suggest they needed all the Jedi, you're only assuming Kun was that powerful. What's Kun going to do against, hell 20 jedi? Twirl his little baton like a cheerleader and take him out? Sorry he's not that good. You don't see Luke Skywalker taking on 20 Jedi. And now you're bringing in the JA example, which has been debunked so many times. So sad, so sad. I wouldn't even consider Kun to be equal to Ragnos anyways, nor Luke knowing ANYTHING about him.

1. If I'm dumb, that implies i'm an idiot. Unless you're calling me a dumb genius. Either way, stop being redundant, twit. Nihilus' ability can't be learned, except that Nihilus learned it on Malachor V, as a result of what happened, and THAT technique was directly stated to derive from the ancient sith. No, he couldn't teach it to anyone, but he learned it.

Hey dumbass, the force storm was a creation by the ancient sith. I love how you throw in a passage, and purposely leave 2 out. Well let me clear it up since you seem to be on the losing side of yet another argument. Hmmm I wonder what Bane did when he gathered on mountain and destroyed the forest. IT was stated that he learned the technique in Revan's holocron, and it was stated that the technique was called a....Force storm? Ooops you lose douchebag. 5 year old Rain resisted it? By god you're a dumbass. Rain was far away from the blast, as were a bunch of jedi. I LOVE how you twist facts around because your argument is pure shit.

Lightsaber mastery, no, force knowledge, ancient sith knowledge, etc, superior to Kun's. Nobody stated that Revan knew sith magic and sith alchemy.

This is coming from the dumbass that has to completely twist facts around in order to tell himself he knows what he's talking about and he's winning a debate. Good job urkel, you're mediocre.

continued..

Darth Sexy

Well lets see, I'm creaming you in a debate, you're starting to make shit up and alter facts, so what does that say about your intelligence when compared to a "lobotomized monkey"? Go back to the drawing board urkel, you're killing yourself here.

No, I think I did a good job attacking your factual points(very rare in your argument), and your distorted ones(99% of the other crap).

Wtf does "One of the greatest ones" means? Oh wait it's Nadd's wonderful opinion who lived for a total of... 50 years? So CLEARLY you don't KNOW what he's talking about, and CLEARLY it has nothing to do with the 21,000 years of Jedi history. Shut up. Nor did Nadd know the powers that Ragnos had, seeing as how Ragnos was >>>>>>>>>>>>to Sadow. Ragnos stated Kun was on his own level? Gee, from now on i'm going to count how much bullshit you can add in a"Debate", if you even call what you wrote that.

And back to square one with the imbecile..
Kun's knowledge comes from Sadow and ONLY Sadow
Revan's knowledge came from Korriban, AND Malachor V, where Nihilus and Traya learned their drain.
Revan>Kun in knowledge. Sorry big boy.

Awww if I ever took logical reasoning class and if I was a boring pseudointellectual like you morons on that other forum, I'd be inclined to get a woodie by pointing out your various fallacies. Tell me urkel, where did I EVER imply that Revan was on the level of Ragnos? Where did I EVER imply that Revan would have achieved more sith knowledge? Sorry, I never said that, learn to read dumbshit. Palpatine is the ONLY one with more sith knowledge, everybody knows this. And again, Ragnos never put Kun on his level..

"Have you come to take Lord Vader's place"? Oh right, after he said Vader was dead, they said "stay here". I guess your incessant fact distorting argument is shot down again. Not to mention you don't even know if that was Ragnos.

Lets see, another quote to debunk your pathetic argument.
"After the Jedi Civil War, barely a hundred jedi remained". Yep, your pathetic attempts to discredit Revan with more bullshit, are pretty sad. I'm glad Nihilus and Sion killed a few jedi, maybe you can give them a high five in your wet dreams. I don't care what you "DOUBT", it's what was stated. Shut up, you lose tool.

IOU

shut it you gay ******

Darth Subjekt

dude, thats all you could reply to his two posts?

Darth Sexy

IOU is yet another moron who can't debate for shit. Of course the kid's going to reply with utter stupidity. Gay ******.. LOL... As opposed to a straight ******? I rest my case.

Darth Subjekt

Well, as least he's consistent..."dumb idiot"..."gay f@ggot"...at least he's sticking with the double negatives, lol.

I'm still waiting for Neb to come back...(not really)

Darth Hord

Sexy is right here you don't know if it was Ragnos who said it because there were many sith spirits at the tomb Sidious visited.

http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=126&page=175
then on http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=126&page=176

There is one quote that sounds like it could be Ragnos speaking here. "How can one who has ruled for a few decades command those who held domion for centuries?" but since there is no picture of the spirits and all the statues look the same you can't say for sure it was Ragnos.

That sith spirit did not grant him the title of the dark lord. Since he has been the dark lord of the sith for decades. He was asking if he was ready to accept his fate and join them.(possibly in a "sith hall of fame" or something similar to that)

Borbarad

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Hey guess what Nai. Sadow fought a total of.... 4 Jedi? Golly gee, he's superman! Nor do you know who built that ship, nor do you know if he would have brought the republic down, which is one of the dumbest assumptions you've ever made, but hey you're on a roll. He caught the Republic by surprise but he didn't have nearly enough forces to win, and when the rebels started to fight for the republic, it was over... Regardless of what Gav did. He didn't come close to defeating the republic, that's your assumption. Revan was the only one who came close.

Excuse me, genious.
Did you even read the comics ?

http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=2&page=077
"Coruscant...a world under attack...a city about to fall to overwhelming Sith forces" You were saying ? This is before the illusions vanish.

http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=2&page=085
Doesn't look as if Odan was too confident about winning on Kirrek either. And this is after the illusions have already vanished. Battle Meditation has no effect on the Sith Warriors

Yeah right. You may explain the following scenes to me, genious:
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=2&page=103
As you see the systems of Sadow's ship are failing and the weapons are also empty. Technically he just has some empty hull there. And now explain to me how this happened:
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=2&page=109

Can it be that the powerless Dark Lord of the Sith did actually manage to come up with quite spectacular explosions himself, going by the fact that the weapons of his ship were actually disabled when he produced that kind of destruction ?

Leave the Dark Reaper alone ? How should that have happened as long as Ulic and Kun controlled it ? And please...
"If Dooku restores the Reaper, it will mean the end of the Republic." (Mace Windu on the weapon). Do you need anything else ?

You mean like the omniscient writer I quoted about how Coruscant was about to fall to the overwhelming Sith forces of Sadow before the illusions were shot down. Hmm...

And Kun who had the Dark Reaper which Mace Windu thought to be powerful enough to bring the end of a later Republic with more powerful Jedi and more powerful conventional military ?

What were you trying to argue ?

I'm really getting bored by having to slap you with the actual sources again and again.

a) Kun's Dark Reaper alone was enough to bring the end of the Republic (Jedi included) unless you have more to say on that issue than Mace Windu.

b) Kun's "olololol 20 Dark Jedi" did kill all considerable powerful Jedi Masters in their time. The only one of the Masters still alive and able to move around (considering Ood also survived) seems to be Thon or did I miss somebody ?

c) For Ulic:
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=5&page=046
As the guy who's being force choked by Ulic mentions, the execution of Ulic's command would lead to the destruction of the entire Republic fleet. You were saying ?

As you may notice now without the betrayal of Aleema our dear Ulic would have destroyed the Republic's entire fleet. And as you might notice Kun had designed a superweapon powerful enough to take down the Republic (according to Mace Windu). Anything else to say, Darth Simplemind ?

I wonder why I should reply to you as you refuse to simply read things I've posted. The point is that the Jedi could have sent all they had against Revan - yet they did send a freaking Padawan and some strike team which didn't include somebody particulary powerful with the exception of Bastila herself.

Urm. Since Kun's freaking spirit force choked the entirety of Luke's students all at once with ease...what would 20 Jedi do against him ? And no. I don't see Luke Skywalker taking 20 Jedi. What I did see were Kyle Katarn and Jaden Korr who did both kill more than 20 Dark Jedi individually. Big deal.

Did you ever have some lessons in linguistics ? You might be aware of the fact that there are so called "figures of speech". You might also be aware of the fact that one of them is called "tautology". You might also be aware of the possible rhetoric use. But to spare you the thinking (as you are quite inable to do that yourself): I just wanted to emphasize how dumb you are, idiot. Got it now ?
And if you want somebody to stop being redundant: You can decide yourself when it's time to keep your mouth close as everything you produce seems to be redundant.

Kreia stated that it can be learned by experiencing it in case you manage to survive it. I still don't see any relevance to this debate as Revan didn't experience it hence he can't have learned it.

So Rain was far away from the blast ?

http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=8&page=089

WHAT THE HELL ?
So she was far away from the blast which is why she stands in the damn middle of destruction right on that picture, correct. Did that trees around her went away ? Did the ground spontaneously burst into flames and hence appears burned ? Oh no. Wait. She simply resisted that blast.

Want to throw any more lies in here or are you finished now ? Rain resisted the attack. And there goes you "argument". Retard.

Borbarad

Oh really ? You want to use POD as source and then consequently ignore it ? "And there was far more than just the ancient practices of dark side sorcerers stored inside the Holocron." WTF ? Dark Side sorcerers whose techniques were stored in Revan's holocron. I'm glad that he didn't use Sith magic which would be what Sith sorcerers actually do.

And before you actually come up with anything on this:
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=7&page=010
"...for Sith Sorcerer Naga Sadow..."

Ups ? OWNED. Anything else you want to tell me ?
And there was more than that in the holocron, yes. Something that is just called "understanding of the Dark Side". I wonder what that should be especially since that "most terrible" stuff that Bane wouldn't use was the stuff those Ancient Sith Sorcereres (*hint* Sadow ! *hint*) left behind.

Yay...let's see. As the source material completely owns you, you might be better off keeping your mouth shut when wanting to accuse people of "twisting facts". I'm mediocre ? Excuse me, Darth Sexy. Are you still suffering from the illusions that you can debate or have the slightest bit of knowledge about the things you want to discuss ? In reality it seems so that this isn't the case.
But of course I'm mediocre compared to you. You are far ahead of me. Of course that's only the case because I'm already about to outstrip you on the debate race track.

Yes. Everybody can see the proof for somebody "altering facts" and "making shit up" here. Seems to be you. Or how can it be that I litter the place with sources why you, so far, came up with...urm...nothing to substantiate your claims, not to mention that the source material did proof that you were telling lies here ? Damn. I have to change the comparison. A pile of shit from said monkey would be smarter than you.

No. You just tried to argue the source material and failed.

Right. Double-standarts again. The Revan Fanboy connection is handing in the opinion of all kind of force using dickheads that gave testament to Revan's power. That is the uber proof for Revans force skills.

The opinion of somebody who did experience one ancient Sith, had contact to another Ancient Sith at least (seen on Korriban where one of them tells Nadd that Kun is ready now) and has been around in actual form and spirit form for more than 400 years of course doesn't matter.

Really. The complete dialogue from the comic goes like that:

Nadd: Greetings, Jedi.
Ulic: Freedon Nadd!
Nadd: I am here to warn you... you must not interfere with the work of the Dark Side. The Sith are destined to rise again. Nothing can prevent that.
Ulic: You talk big for a spirit. I thought Arca drove you away.
Nadd: Arca cannot interfere with the dead... Nor can he help you, poor Jedi, to avoid your destiny.
Ulic: What are you talking about?
Nadd: You will be one of the great ones-- and there is another even greater than you.

What do you think is "one of the great ones" refering to as Nadd is speaking about the power of the Dark Side and the new rise of the Sith ? Of course he's calling Ulic one of the great ones (refering to the Sith up to that point) just to call Exar Kun "even greater" in the very same sentence.

And Ragnos ?
"You are the chosen..."
"You may bring to pass the great destiny foretold..."
"You have rightly earned the title Dark Lord of the Sith..."
"We now secure the future when the Sith take their revenge..."

Yadda, yadda, yadda. By the comment that Kun has "rightly earned" the title Dark Lord of the Sith, Ragnos puts him on his own level.

Indeed. You're back to square one, imbecile.
Kun's knowledge consisted of: Things Vodo told him, things Nadd told him (who was in possession of the most precious source of Ancient Sith knowledge - Adas holocron), everything Sadow left behind (another Ancient Sith), things he found on Ossus (he came to that planet twice), the scrolls he found in Nadd's tomb (ok...also Sadow's work most likely).

And are you once again sighting the f*cking planet-size graveyard and that nice Sith school where Kreia and Revan (supposed) learned that uber force drain that Kun used multiple times ?

Sorry, kid. The size of the knowledge source doesn't influence the amount of knowledge and the value of the knowledge stored there. You again just came up with that graveyard planet where we never saw any "knowledge" being found and Malachor V were the knowledge is limited to basical Sith teachings + the force drain. WTF ?

You are aware of the funny fact that you can put "Sadow" here instead of "Ragnos" and the result would still be the same ? Namely that Kreia, who had her ass on Malachor for several years, still considered herself a child compared to the Ancient Sith Lords. This talking about people including Sadow ? Even if Kun only got Sadow's entire knowledge that "only", as it seems, puts him above Kreia and Revan already.

And thanks. I'm aware that "logical reasoning" is a totally foreign field for you. You don't have to point that out.

http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=126&page=175
I guess you're not capable of reading properly. Much less capable of actually using common sense. They have a placed reserved for Vader ? How can that be if they didn't at least grant Vader the title Dark Lord of the Sith ? Ups. Aside of that "How can one who has ruled only a few decades can command those who held dominion for centuries" ? Notice that the only Sith Lord known to have ruled for over a century was...Ragnos. Talked yourself into the next dead end, eh ?

Uh. Yes. I was descrediting Revan. Once again: Do I doubt that Revan is powerful ? No. Do I doubt that he's a military genious ? No. Do I doubt that he's capable of taking "the darkest power in the Galaxy" in a one on one situation ? Yes.
We can keep arguing about Revan's archievements again and again. Did he personally, with his own power, take all that Jedi down ? Nope. Does it matter then ? Nope. Did Revan with his own power and nothing else conquer the Republic. Nope. Does it matter then ? Nope.

Got it now ? Anything that can not be attributed to Revan's lightsaber skills or force knowledge directly is worthless for this debate. Unless you assume he's going to kill Kun by floating him with droids and ships from the Star Forge or he takes some HK droid out of his packet to assassinate Kun.

And if you want to go by archievements. Six months after taking the path down to the Dark Side Kun and Ulic almost had the complete Republic's fleet destroyed, and had a superweapon capable of bringing the end of the Republic - designed by Kun. I wonder what they would have without being betrayed and adding another 1.5 years of kicking the living shit out of the Republic and "spreading death on a genocidal level". Hmm...

Darth Sexy

Originally posted by Borbarad
Excuse me, genious.
Did you even read the comics ?

http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=2&page=077
"Coruscant...a world under attack...a city about to fall to overwhelming Sith forces" You were saying ? This is before the illusions vanish.
I fail to see how this means "Sadow was about to take over the galaxy".

And?

Oh my, now you're actually stating that Sadow directly caused the supernova.

Yea, an omniscient character, not someone's opinion, and not something irrelevant.

I'm confused, because Mace Windu says it, it's canon? Oh wait, it's an opinion.

Considerably powerful Jedi masters? You mean masters like Ood, whose powers didn't rest in combat? Powerful Jedi Masters? Keep making up shit Nai, because there's nothing to suggest they are powerful.

Ah I see what you're doing, you're basing your argument on a few character opinions. That's nice Nai, unfortunately it means nothing, especially when the Jedi arrived and the element of surprise was gone.

Yea, your argument is shit based on a few opinions. Looks like the comics show the jedi arriving, turning the tide of the battle, THEN Aleema betraying Ulic. Hmmm Nai, actual comics>opinions.

REally Nai? SO the Jedi could have loaded thousands of Jedi on one of their ships and went after Revan? Hmm wait that doesn't make any sense, seeing as how it was an ONGOING SPACE BATTLE you twit. Where are you going to send your Jedi to exactly? Especially since the JEdi and the REpublic were being crushed. GOod one tiger.

20 padawans. Nice. Notice how nobody was arguing Kun's skill. What you've turned this argument into is the downplaying of Revan's character and the verbal fellatio of Kun. TOo bad you couldn't read 4 pages ago when the initial argument dealt with who had more knowledge, a case which you clearly lost. But please, this is amusing.

Translation: Nai is a reduntant pseudointellectual.

Everything I produce seems to be redundant? Please, enlighten me pseudointellectual, since you can't throw any intelligence into this debate.

He was on Malachor V you twit, he pillaged the underground cities. How do you think Nihilus learned it? Somebody used it on him? Unlikely.

Awwww soooo Sorry Nai, POD has retconned Jedi vs. Sith. Rain was nowhere near the blast, you lose again.

Darth Sexy

Originally posted by Borbarad
Oh really ? You want to use POD as source and then consequently ignore it ? "And there was far more than just the ancient practices of dark side sorcerers stored inside the Holocron." WTF ? Dark Side sorcerers whose techniques were stored in Revan's holocron. I'm glad that he didn't use Sith magic which would be what Sith sorcerers actually do.
I don't know what the hell youre babbling about so I'm going to assume its one of your angry, irrelevant rants.

Could be Sadow, coud be Ragnos, could be the actual powerful ancient sith that were alive before Ragnos, you don't know, so shut it.

Denial is a ***** Nai, you've shown that by constantly distorting facts. But hey when in denial, throw the old "I know you are but what am I" argument.

OF course you are urkel.

Ahhh this coming from an angry buffoon who loves to twists facts. Why would I have to prove you're twisting facts. Let someone competent read your splooge for an argument.

Denial isn't just another river in egypt Urkel.

Right, double standards Kun fanboy.

Contact with an ancient sith spirit you mean urkel, because by the time Nadd was alive, the ancient sith were all extinct, so I'm sorry if I(or anyone else) would have trouble taking his word that Ulic and Kun were one of the most powerful in 21,000 years, as canon.. I'll call your bullshit again..

Omg one of the great ones.. SURELY Nai the incredible translator of ambiguous text, can translate this mystery!!!! I guess Ulic and Kun somehow ARE some of the greatest in 21,000 years of history. Wait, no, you can't translate it, jackass..

Nai the infallible translator has somehow translated this crap as Ragnos and Kun being on the same level. What translating school did you go to urkel?

Name one thing/technique Nadd taught him. Oh right, nthing. Ossus? No time to study anything on Ossus as he died shortly after.. Revan's knowledge? Korriban, Rakata, Malachor V. Revan wins Urkel.

Yes, don't you hate simple facts that destroy your argument?

I guess we "never saw" Nadd or Ossus teaching Kun anything. Sorry Nai. Basic sith teachings? Nai, you're wonderful at making assumptions/

Which ancient sith lords would that be Nai? Oh wait, you want to include ALL of them, which not only makes no sense, but is retarded to begin with. I guess Revan is miles above Sadow and Kun seeing as how he first pillaged the tombs of the ancients on Korriban.

As much as a "logical argument" is for you urkel.

Yes, I'm looking at my comics.. "Have you come to take place of Lord Vader"? Looks like your reading comprehension skills are impeccable. Oh wait, piss poor. I guess Ragnos is a "Those", since "Those" have ruled for centuries, which is most likely talking about Korriban or the darkside. See Nai, Ragnos is a single entity, and "Those" is plural, which means more than one. So much for dead end huh butt honkey?

LOL now that it's clear Revan accomplished more than Kun, you want to argue semantics. True sign of a fanboy. Let me use your distorted logic. Did Kun get close to conquering the Republic? No. Did Revan? Yes. Did either one of them use their OWN power? NO Nai you jackass, because everything they learned, they got from somebody else, so if you want to argue semantics, make sure to steer clear of double standards, which you're an expert at.

As opposed to "omgz he's got a l337 amulet he wins LOL".

THat's nice, and if you want to go by accomplishments REALISTICALLY, Revan basically destroyed the republic and the Jedi, got closer than anybody to it other than Palpatine, created his OWN sith empire, created the rule of two that saved the sith, etc. Sorry Nai, Revan pwns Kun in achievements and knowledge.

Darth Hord

Originally posted by Borbarad
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=126&page=175
I guess you're not capable of reading properly. Much less capable of actually using common sense. They have a placed reserved for Vader ? How can that be if they didn't at least grant Vader the title Dark Lord of the Sith ? Ups. Aside of that "How can one who has ruled only a few decades can command those who held dominion for centuries" ? Notice that the only Sith Lord known to have ruled for over a century was...Ragnos. Talked yourself into the next dead end, eh ?

Why would he say Those than? Why not say "than one who has held dominion for centuries?" Looks like those is plural there. Also note even if it was Ragnos talking it proves nothing other than he was one of a few sith spirits there. Since when did the sith spirits need to grant you the title of DLOTS to be one? Vader has been a sith lord since ROTS. If you try to look at the quote with an open mind (which you can't since you have been debating about Ragnos,kun,etc. for a while ) you would realize it could mean how can Sidious who has been DLOTS for decades order previous sith lords now living as a spirits for centuries. But there is no definite proof to prove Ragnos was there since you see anything that proves it was Ragnos. So saying that it was definitely was is wrong since you have a very vague quote which you can interpret many ways. And you never see Ragnos or no mention to his name. The only picture of a spirit doesn't even look like him.

Darth Sexy

Nai apparently forgot about the BOD, and Bane's Lineage, where EVERYONE is a dark lord.

kamhal

http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=2&page=079

Hmm, what is this laughing

Darth Sexy

What about it?

kamhal

By the way, i wanted to add something:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HETt3T3Zr2s&mode=related&search=

So, it seems Exar Kun himself finds Revan as a powerful guy...

Also http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xgVEIMNKNr8&mode=related&search=

and

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_xDOyeam1s&mode=related&search=

Darth Sexy

Omg. I just creamed my pants. I WANT this mod.

Manslayer

Originally posted by kamhal
By the way, i wanted to add something:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HETt3T3Zr2s&mode=related&search=

So, it seems Exar Kun himself finds Revan as a powerful guy...

Also http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xgVEIMNKNr8&mode=related&search=

and

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_xDOyeam1s&mode=related&search= Its a mod and non-canon. Just so you know that

ThoraxeRMG

That Exar Kun tomb mod was a sad excuse.
That guy looked nothing Like Exar Kun.
And Exar Kun never had a tomb.

Manslayer

Kamhal is going to start using that video as "proof"

kamhal

Do i? By the way, I think exar kun is actually very well concieved, but this is just me.

I always thought that as a character, we should land on yavin IV surface. After all, such mysterious place, linked with the dark side, should be more available then just you to be in a simple space station.

Manslayer

Originally posted by kamhal
Do i? By the way, I think exar kun is actually very well concieved, but this is just me.

I always thought that as a character, we should land on yavin IV surface. After all, such mysterious place, linked with the dark side, should be more available then just you to be in a simple space station. Sadly exar kun doesnt look like that nor he had a tomb thus it isnt canon

kamhal

You seem much concern about it, really laughing

Anyway, did i say it was canon? smile

Darth Sexy

Do any of you have that Exar Kun Mod? I Must have it.

Manslayer

Originally posted by kamhal
You seem much concern about it, really laughing

Anyway, did i say it was canon? smile

Nope but if there was a debate between kun and revan im highly sure you will use it

ThoraxeRMG

Originally posted by Manslayer
Sadly exar kun doesnt look like that nor he had a tomb thus it isnt canon

Nor he didn't sound speak the Trandoshan Language Dosh.

Count Makashi

Originally posted by Borbarad
So I still have to stay with my opinion:
Exar Kun defeats Revan (most likely in a lightsaber fight)
Maul holds Anakin at bay until Exar has finished Revan.
They destroy Anakin.

Just one problem, Maul cant hold Anakin at bay, Dooku got completely destroyed by Anakin in a saber match and Dooku is better them Maul with sabers, by some margin. Anakin would annihilate maul with sabers, before Exar would defeat Revan(if he would at all), then he and Revan defeat Kun.

Darth Sexy

Good god, reading through that crap is going to give me a migraine. Nai, you've lost a lot of your debating abilities from a year ago, possibly due to the fact that you hang around the antedelluvians so much. Either way I can prove Revan has more knowledge, as can anybody else, which is quite the case. In the case of who's powerful, lets just agree to disagree because you're throwing around as much bullshit as I am, if not more.

Gideon

To be honest, I don't think Count Dooku is that far ahead of Maul at all in lightsabers (if he is at all). Jollyjim was convincing.

xxXAcStylesXxx

Just look at Malak and Exar Kun compared to each other statistically, they are almost about even with Malak getting the nod in force abilities and power, physical strength, intelligence, wisdom and charisma.

Darth Malak: Male Human Jedi Guardian 11/Sith Lord 9: Init +2 (+2 Dex); Defense 26 (+2 Dex, +14 class); Spd 10 m; VP/WP 158/16; Atk +23/+18/+13/+8 melee (7d8 +5, lightsaber) or +24/+19/+14/+9 melee (2d6 +9, crit 19-20, ancient mastercraft Sith sword), +20/+15/+10/+5 ranged; SQ Block, DR 5, enhanced Force powers, deflect (defense +2, attack -3), exceptional minions, Jedi Knight, resource access; SV Fort +16, Ref +15, Will +14; SZ M; FP 11; DSP 30; Rep +5; Str 20, Dex 14, Con 16, Int 13, Wis 17, Cha 20. Challenge Code H.

Equipment: Lightsaber, ancient mastercraft Sith sword (attack +1, damage +4), vast resources of mysterious origin.
Skills: Balance +7, Intimidate +19, Knowledge (Sith lore) +14, Pilot +11, Read/Write Basic, Read/Write Sith*, Speak Basic, Speak Sith*.

Force Skills: Affect Mind +9, Control Mind +14, Battlemind +17, Enhance Ability +15, Fear +20, Force Defense +15, Force Grip +18, Force Lightning +24, Force Strike +11, Move Object +15, Telepathy +13.

Feats: Combat Reflexes, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (lightsaber), Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Sith sword)*, Force-Sensitive, Power Attack, Skill Emphasis (Knowledge ), Weapon Group Proficiency (blaster pistols, simple weapons).

Force Feats: Alter, Burst of Speed, Control, Drain Force*, Force Mind, Force Whirlwind, Hatred*, Knight Defense, Lightsaber Defense, Malevolent, Master Defense, Mettle, Rage*, Sense, Sith Sorcery*, Sith Sword Defense*.

Special Qualities: Damage Reduction 5 -- Darth Malak ignores the first five points of any kind of damage. Whether this is due to hidden armor linked to his voice mask or the physical result of Sith alchemy is anyone's guess.

Enhanced Force Powers -- Using a mysterious power source as yet undiscovered (complete Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic to learn more), Darth Malak possesses extraordinary dark side Force powers out of proportion, in game terms, with his class and level. He gained three additional Force feats and 24 bonus skill points exclusively for dark side skills. In any battle, the first Force point Darth Malak spends on a dark side-related roll does not subtract from his total.

and compare him to Exar Kun:

Exar Kun: male Human, Jedi Guardian 9/Sith Lord 8; IM +3 (+3 Dex); Def 26 (+13 class, +3 Dex); Spd 10m; VP/WP 158/17; Atk +21/+16/+11/+6 melee (dmg 5d8+3/5d8+3, crit 19-20, double-bladed lightsaber), +20/+15/+10/+5 ranged; SQ Resource access, Minions, Exceptional minions; SV Fort +15, Ref +14, Will +9; SZ M; FP 8; DSP 18; Rep 12; Str 17, Dex 16, Con 17, Int 14, Wis 11, Cha 13. Challenge Code H.

Equipment: Double-bladed lightsaber, Sith amulet, dark armor (+2 equipment bonus on saves against light side powers), Sith battleship, alchemical apparatus.

Skills: Computer Use +4, Craft (lightsaber) +8, Intimidate +13, Knowledge (Jedi lore) +12, Knowledge (Sith lore) +17, Read/Write Basic, Read/Write Sith, Speak Arkanian, Speak Basic, Speak Ryl, Speak Sith

Force Skills: Affect Mind +13, Alchemy +24, Battlemind +18, Enhance Ability +13, Force Defense +21, Force Push +14, Move Object +14, See Force +12

Feats: Ambidexterity, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (double-bladed lightsaber), Exotic Weapon Proficiency (lightsaber), Force-Sensitive, Heroic Surge, Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (lightsaber), Weapon Group Proficiency (blaster pistols), Weapon Group Proficiency (simple weapons), Weapon Group Proficiency (vibro weapons)

Force Feats: Alter, Control, Deflect Blasters, Force Lightning, Knight Defense, Lightsaber Defense, Master Defense, Rage, Sense

Now with that Revan beat Malak, twice as a pure Jedi, then a few months later regained his entire dark side knowledge (which is more then Kuns) thus making him even stronger. Logically and Statistically Revan should be able to beat Exar Kun.

And before you start whining about stats they are perfectly applicable in debate, as Advent proved:

Are game mechanics (video games or rpg) canon? For example, does a rpg damage rating like "7d" mean anything? If a C-canon source (like a novel or reference book) contradicts what the game mechanics say, will the book win out?

Leeland Chee says:

Game mechanics are designed to try to match continuity to fit the purposes of the game for which they were created. They can serve to provide a scale from which to compare how one character or piece of technology stacks up against another. Because RPGs use dice, there is always the element of random chance involved, which isn't quite applicable to a book.

But stats themselves aren't created randomly; they are based on what is already known. As such, we can always look to them as a basis when writing books. I often look to RPG stats to see for example, what type of Force powers a character may have. Or if we haven't determined the stats of a particular vehicle, we can look to RPG stats for a basis of comparison.

Conversely, I think it would be a determinent if books were artificially limited by game stats. So I would agree that a book is going to overrule a stat if there is a contradiction. - Leland Chee , page 37 of Holocron continuity database questions.

Darth Sexy

I wouldn't trust those stats for shit. As much as I love Ragnos, his stats are uber godlike, yet they don't mean shit.

xxXAcStylesXxx

Why not? His stats are not that high in comparison to the other heavy hitters, I have the DSSB right in front of me, if LeeLand Chee says its fine I see no reason why we can't use them, especially if theres no contradiction.

Manslayer

Doesnt vader have higher stats than luke at jedi master level? That seems crap really

xxXAcStylesXxx

Luke at a Jedi Master level was what...a year or so before DE? Then yeah I'd say its pretty right. And just because of one inconsistency that doesn't dismiss the whole thing, as addressed in my first post on the matter.

Manslayer

I think i was referring to the one in NJO source book which would mean NJO luke

Borbarad

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
Just look at Malak and Exar Kun compared to each other statistically, they are almost about even with Malak getting the nod in force abilities and power, physical strength, intelligence, wisdom and charisma.

Oh noes, not the stats. Really dude...that makes absolutely no sense.

Erm. No.
Those stats are flawed as stats are always flawed.

First: This is coming from WotC who seem to favor the RPG characters. Otherwise I don't see how Malak should have reached (Guardian 11 / Sith Lord 9) level 20 which, in the POTJ Sourcebook and the DSB is otherwise reserved for DE Sidious and Yoda. Quite an exeggeration.

Second: Those stats are based on a d20 system. You might be aware of the fact that this means, as Leland Chee says himself, that there is an element of random added. So I don't see how to reach your conclusion that Malak would defeat Kun even based on that flawed stats.

Third: The stats are pretty illogical. How can Kun have a greater knowledge of Sith Lore in comparison to Malak (14 compared to 18) but at the same time have less access to actual Sith powers and a lesser Sith Lord level ? The fact that he tops Malaks force defence by 50 % is also pretty stupid. Especially thinking about the fact that Malak, as far as I remember, is completely immune to force attacks in the end of KotoR.

The second paragraph of Leland Chee's statement is where he actually fails. The stats are assigned randomly. This is pretty obvious. I mean...how did Malak reach a force lightning skill compareable to that of DE Sidious if pre-ROTJ Sidious did just electrocute around 500 Storm Troopers with a single lightning burst ? Doesn't make sense.

But well...we have the third paragraph here. If you have a source contradicting the stats they are worthless. And please. Going by the d20 stats (just some examples): Qui-Gon should have completely trashed Maul in TPM on his own while the NJO version of Luke Skywalker would hardly be able to survive against the likes of Dooku or Mace Windu. There not just "one" inconsistency there - the stats are completely inconsistant with the actual things shown in the stories. I wonder how Leland Chee didn't figure that out.

Not to mention that the Jedi Exile would be the most powerful being the SW universe had ever seen in this case, as they put the character level limit from 20 to 50 and it's not that unusual to finish KotoR II with a level of 23/24.

Borbarad

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Either way I can prove Revan has more knowledge, as can anybody else, which is quite the case. In the case of who's powerful, lets just agree to disagree because you're throwing around as much bullshit as I am, if not more.

Once again.

What you can proof is that Revan had more knowledge sources. What you can't proof is that he learned more from them than Kun learned from Sadow.

What you can proof is that Revan knew the force bomb technique, the force drain, some sort of force storm and was able to call lightning from the sky. As I have shown you, the list of powers canonically known to Exar Kun exceeds that.

And that's not talking about how the most impressive stuff that Revan seems to have known (going by POD) is not even useable in direct confronation. In contrary to most abilities Kun has shown to us.

So I really don't get how you want to proof that Revan had more knowledge than Kun and much less I can see how you developed the idea that Revan is more powerful than Exar Kun.

And as you mentioned "last year". At that time Exar Kun VS Revan would have looked like that here.

Darth Sexy

Originally posted by Borbarad
Once again.

What you can proof is that Revan had more knowledge sources. What you can't proof is that he learned more from them than Kun learned from Sadow.
His knowledge base is broader, which points to him having more force knowledge. His knowledge base includes Korriban and Malachor V while Kun's includes only what was in Sadow's notes. Furthermore, what ancient sith techniques did Kun know? Stasis? Sith Magic?

Where have you shown me this? And when you say powers, please be specific. Exar Kun isn't uber because he alchemically created monsters.

Like what, using Sadow's amulet? And remind me how his force storm isn't usable in combat, seeing as how he knew it, and canonically had it in KOTOR where he used it himself.

The fact that Revan had more knowledge, had more people verbally fellate him, broader knowledge base, etc..

Yes, that's why I mentioned it because that's what it's kind of looking like now.

kamhal

One thing, canonly Revan used the force stom. If i am not wrong, i thikn The One described what could only be a force storm (deduced from his descripton) destroying his scouts and even his rancor beats...

Borbarad

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
His knowledge base is broader, which points to him having more force knowledge. His knowledge base includes Korriban and Malachor V while Kun's includes only what was in Sadow's notes. Furthermore, what ancient sith techniques did Kun know? Stasis? Sith Magic?

See. This is where you always come up with the same mistake. You assume because Revan plundered some tombs and a planet filled with knowledge that would result in more knowledge. And not only that. You also assume that this knowledge has a greater value than what Kun got from Sadow, hence you assume that Revan is more powerful.

But it stays an assumption because you're not able to proof that Revan did have more knowledge than Kun because he did never show to have more knowledge than Kun.

Technically (and I don't say that this was the case) Revan could have looted the very same knowledge multiple times (as the source is pretty much always = Ancient Sith knowledge) and this without surpassing Kun's knowledge base (agein Sadow = Ancient Sith). I mean: Where is the difference of the knowledge Dark Lord X had and the knowledge Dark Lord Y had ? It's not that every one of them did exhibit unique abilities.

Kun's knowledge ? Again:
And Kun's knowledge / abilities as far as canon goes:
- he was able to heal his completely shattered bones in a pretty short amount of time using the Dark Side
- he was capable of freezing the entire Senate (Woookiepedia lists this as "mind control" although I'm not that sure about it)
- he was capable of projecting beams of Dark Side energy (against Aleema)
- same again but more powerful through the Amulet (against the Sithwyrm and Nadd)
- the DSSB lists him as an expert user of force lightning
- he was able to kill Odan Urr with a single force attack (might have been a force choke, I'm not sure about that)
- he burned Gantoris from the inside out (unknown technique used by Kun in spirit form)
- he summoned that ebon snakes, made out of pure Dark Side energy, which ripped Luke's spirit from his body (also in spirit from, unknown technique)
- he force choked all of Luke's student at a similar time (again as a spirit)
- he had a ritual at hand that would have enabled him to seperated his spirit from his body completely but keep his powers intact (which failed due to the attack of the Jedi)
- vast knowledge in Sith Alchemy: Dark Reaper, Amulet construction, altering of lifeforms (e.g. Massassi), creation of new life forms.

So Kun as spirit did show us two unique abilities while the little ritual (as well as his Sith Alchemy use) suggesting that he did have some knowledge about Ancient Sith rituals.

See above. I've posted the same stuff before (Kun's powers).

Erm. No.

First: Path of Destruction on that "force storm" the Sith under Bane are later using.
"He had discovered the ritual she spoke of while studying Revan's Holocron: a way to unite the minds and spirits of the Sith through a single vessel so their strength could be unleashed upon the physical world."

As you can see: It's a ritual and it requires multiple Sith. So Revan can't do the same on his own.

Second: the Epilogue of POD:
"The fires had killed most of the other bouncers. The survivors had all gone mad. All except Laa. Somehow Rain had saved her. She'd used the Force, shielding them both from the burning death and destruction, though she wasn't quite sure how she'd done it. It had just sort of...happened. Now she and Laa had nobody left but each other."

As you can see Rain did shield herself and Laa from the destruction unleashed by the Sith Lords and Bane. So aside from the fact that Revan is not able to use that ability alone, I doubt that Kun has less force defence than the untrained kid Rain. That turns this "force storm" virtually useless.

Third: In KotoR it says that Revan "called lightning from the sky". That's pretty much that point blank area effect force lightning version that is called "force storm" in the KotoR games. I neither see where this is something uber special, nor do I see where it should be anything effective against Kun. Especially since the "area effect" would be pretty stupid against a single opponent and even AotC Obi-Wan Kenobi is capable of putting up some defence against force lightning.

So what do we have here ?
1) An unsupported assumption (Revan having more knowledge)
2) An appeal to majority (more people verbally fellating Revan)
3) A repetition of "1" (broader knowledge base = more knowledge)

And technically "2" isn't even correct. People verbally fellating Kun to a certain extend: Freedon Nadd ("One of the great ones and one even greater" wink

, Ragnos ("rightly earned the title Dark Lord of the Sith" wink

, Aleema ("rippling with force Dark Side energy" wink

, Oss Willum ("immensely powerful Jedi" wink

, Vodo ("most formidable student" wink

, Thon ("thread to the entire Galaxy" wink

, Odan ("not able to stop the Darkness" wink

, Ood ("combat is not my skill" wink

, Kyp Durron and Gantoris (both putting him above Luke), indirectly Mace Windu and Dooku (giving comments about the Dark Reaper) and of course the omniscient narrator ("Darkest power in the Galaxy" wink

.

Not that this matters. As I already said: appeal to majority is a logical fallancy.

I don't see any arguments in that thread I linked. Nor do I see where I (seriously) stated that Kun would kick Revan's ass across the place. I said that if he could use his amulets against Revan he might kill him (and Anakin for that matter) with the blast. But I really doubt it would be that easy (as I have argued the effects of Kun's amulet VS force users myself).

kamhal

- It wasn't kun who healed himself, it was Nadd who healed him when he accepted the dark side
- Yes, an "ancient sith knowledge" like force stasis. Big deal when the senate was fill up with non force users, who had no defense to force attacks. Notice that non of the other force users around was freeze.
- yes, dark side beams coming from the amulet, big deal. By the way, hadn't Aleema survived with no damage? laughing

- yes, always the amulet. By the way, this amulet was build by Sadow, not Kun...
- unfourtunaly he never used it, and if his force lightning was that strong he would surely used it at least once, i think...
- right, a jedi more then 1 thousand years old who could barely move from where he was... Even then he still force pushes exar kun. It seems his reflexes are not that fast or at least his force defenses are not that high. If Exar let guys like Revan, Sidious or Bane to hit him with a full power force lightning, the game could have been over in the moment...
- all the other feats are pretty controversial since he was using Kyp's power, who is said to be close to luke's one, together with his own power...
- since when sith alchemy will give him advantage in a fight?

So, with all this, what did exar kun showed that may atonish us all? Hmm...

xxXAcStylesXxx

Not quite according to the adjusted stats for ROTS, Palpatine at that time is already a level 20, as is Yoda as is Markas Ragnos. Malak in this case is as it says and the stats indicate being boosted by the Star Forges power which at the time of the duel with Revan was drawing energy from a star. I fail to see how thats an exaggeration. Other then that DE Sidious isn't even in the DSSB.

Yeah sure, but as he then mentions:

But stats themselves aren't created randomly ; they are based on what is already known. As such, we can always look to them as a basis when writing books.

I reached the conclusion that Malak could beat Kun is based of his set of core stats that aren't created randomly, are superior to Kuns.

And other then you completely misinterpreted what that stat means its Sith Lore not knowledge of the Sith powers the DSSB defines the Knowledge: Sith Lore skill as:

Knowledge skills represent a study of some body of lore-in this case, histories and legends of the ancient Sith . Knowledge(Sith Lore) enables a character to answer questions about Sith traditions and the powers of the Sith.

Nowhere does that indicate that that skill translates in to "how many powers you have."

No, he can still be harmed by force attacks, and I didn't realise 15 from 21 was 50%, dude how old are you? 15 and 15 is...30. How you got 50% is beyond me.

I'm sorry I'll take LeeLand Chee's word over Kun Fanboy Nai ANYDAY.

No Nai, you just don't know what your talking about, at the time of the realise of the DSSB the abilities like force lighting weren't given corresponding stat numbers, they were just listed, under the force feats section. And with that said ROTS Palpatine has a Force Lightning score of 16, given the fact that an Empire Era Palpatine outclasses his former self by 50% most of the time in force abilities its safe to say that his force lighting ability as evident by the comic where he blasts the battalion of Stormtroopers significantly rose as well. As for Malak, as I've said he is being boosted by the Star Forge so its not and exaggeration, The Star Forge just made him that damn powerful.

And show me ONE source that contradicts Malak being stronger then Exar, ONE Nai, TOTJ said Exar was the strongest dark power in the galaxy, which he was, but does that somehow account for the beings who exist 40 years after his death? No. Malak was stronger simple as that, and Revan in turn is also stronger then Kun.

Please provide detailed proof to back up that assertion or shut the hell up, anyways as I said it doesn't matter if theres a contradiction between the stats and the book or movie then the book or movie always wins out, but does that disregard the stats as a whole? Hell no, as LeeLandChee says, thats were you fail Nai.

Again, an inconsistency, thats disregarded, now how does this apply to Exar Kun and Malak...oh wait it doesn't. I'll ask you again give me ONE thing that contradicts the conclusion I've come to (Malak being stronger) that doesn't involve "LAWLZ the stats suck!" "Theres some inconsistencies...so the whole medium is uncanon." Essentially its your word vs. and LFL representative, who acknowledges that they're are some inconsistencies and when viewed in the face of a higher canon the higher canon wins. Guess who's word I'm gonna take...

And...thats obviously not canon, and for her to be used in a stat book she'd have to be adjusted to the fit the same d20 system that every other character in Star Wars has to fit. Use your head silly.

xxXAcStylesXxx

Uh no it doesn't. It says he has the skill, does that make him an expert of it? Hell no. Really Nai whos ass did you pull that from? Malak on the other hand would be a expert user of force lightning.

Darth Sexy

Nai, I'll add my rebuttal after the game.

BlaxicanHydra

Originally posted by kamhal
- It wasn't kun who healed himself, it was Nadd who healed him when he accepted the dark side
- Yes, an "ancient sith knowledge" like force stasis. Big deal when the senate was fill up with non force users, who had no defense to force attacks. Notice that non of the other force users around was freeze.
- yes, dark side beams coming from the amulet, big deal. By the way, hadn't Aleema survived with no damage? laughing

BlaxicanHydra

Darth Maul wins this by himself with considerable ease.

Darth Sexy

Uh what? That's assuming he can even beat Anakin(he can't).

Borbarad

Originally posted by kamhal
- It wasn't kun who healed himself, it was Nadd who healed him when he accepted the dark side

Nope. That was Kun. Nadd just gave him access to the Dark Side but he claims that Kun has to "help himself".

Urm. No. Several sources list that as mind control. Yes...it is a big deal if you simply control thousands of beings - freezing them with the very same force attack would also be impressive.

Where did Kun blast Aleema with the amulet ? As she tries to attack him with an energy beam and he replies that she just knows a little bit off Sith Magic when he mastered the art completely and then attacks her with an energy beam himself. Would be quite stupid to suggest that he used the amulet there.

Where did I ever say that it was built by Kun ?

Against which opponent ?

Urm. What ? Odan didn't force push him but used a wall of light attack against him. He had the initial attack. Where does he need reflexes for that ? And since force lightning can be stopped by holding a saber in the way (see AotC Kenobi) I highly doubt that would be effective against Kun.

Urm. Dude. I was talking about the fact that he knew the corresponding technique to rip Luke's spirit from his body and burn Gantoris inside out, regardless whose power he was using. We were talking about knowledge. And neither did he use somebody elses power to kill Gantoris, nor did he do that while force choking Luke's students.

Since Sith Alchemy is used to store force energy in objects. Like the second amulet Kun's wearing. And notice how I was still talking about knowledge and not fighting abilities.

What did Revan show that may astonish us all ? Hmm...

Borbarad

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
Not quite according to the adjusted stats for ROTS, Palpatine at that time is already a level 20, as is Yoda as is Markas Ragnos. Malak in this case is as it says and the stats indicate being boosted by the Star Forges power which at the time of the duel with Revan was drawing energy from a star. I fail to see how thats an exaggeration. Other then that DE Sidious isn't even in the DSSB.

And you know how the ROTS novel contradicts all of that ? Yoda is listed there as the greatest enemy the Dark Side has ever known. By implication through the stats, Revan must have been more powerful than Malak (as a Jedi) to be able to actually beat that SF powered version of him. This would contradict the idea that Yoda is the most powerful lightside up to that point.

What "core stats" are you talking about and what do you think they base that stats on ? Here is what you've written: "Malak getting the nod in force abilities and power, physical strength, intelligence, wisdom and charisma."

Now please tell me what that stuff is based on. Where is the instance to compare Malak's wisdom or intelligence to that of Exar Kun ? Physical strength: Can be done. But we saw in the movies that this doesn't really matter due to force enchantment. And the force abilities and powers ? Obviously there are lacking some for Kun where I don't see the basis for giving Malak a +24 force lightning.

Once again: Malak is supposed to have more training as a Sith (indicated by Sith Lord level) and as you argued here, Revan had a broader variety of sources (hence more knowledge) about the Ancient Sith then Kun, which would also be accesible for Malak. How can Kun than trump Malak in Sith Lore ? Hell...why doesn't Malak even have "Jedi Lore" ?

LMAO ! Did you ever have lessons in math, kid ?

First: Sorry. I have puzzled the stats and thought Malak's force defence is 14.
Second: I said Kun trumps that by 50 %. That means 150 % of 14. And that would be ? 21 maybe ? (Just to spell it out for you 14 devided by 2 = 7 + 14 = 21).
Third: So Kun has just 140 % of Malak's force defence (15 compared to 21).

Just for freaking comparison in terms of force defence:
Palpatine (ROTS): +11 (Kun almost twice as much ? WTF ?)
Anakin Skywalker (ROTS): +8 (WTF ? The Chosen One ?)
Yoda: +12 (ROFL - 800 year old Jedi Master)
Mace Windu: +12 (right, same as Yoda ? Jeez ?)

Kun also trumps about every PT character when it comes to Enchance Ability (+13, Yoda / Mace have +12) or Battlemind (+18, Yoda +11, Mace +16).

So are you going to tell me that Kun is virtually untouchable by force attacks and would destroy every single PT character in a conventional fight due to boosting himself with the Enchance Ability and Battlemind ? Or are you ready to admit that those d20 stats are a great pile of bullshit when it comes to actual debates.

And I'm sorry: I'll take logical reasoning above Chee's word any day as there is no logical basis for that stats - they are randomly assigned. Of course I see why an employee of George Lucas is not going to say that those Sourcebook stats are completely worthless. Actually they want to sell that stuff...

The point is that some Sith Lord who had access to the Dark Side for about 5 years and had studied the arts of the Jedi for 20 (maybe) years is put on the same level like a Sith Lord who did that entire business for more than 5 decades. Not to mention that it would still put Revan over Yoda which contradicts the ROTS novel.

If all you have to say that are flawed d20 stats, I don't think I have to argue with you any longer. And by the way: Since I don't have the stats for Revan (do you ? Please post them) and we don't know how Revan defeated Malak, this would be again a flawed conclusion. Technically Revan still had all his weapons (grenades for example) and other stuff (health packs, stimulats, implants) to deal with Malak not to notice that he was most likely aided by Bastilla's Battle Meditation. All benefits that he won't have against Exar Kun.

So what ?

We're not talking about "one" contradiction. We're talking about a shit load of contradictions. Really. Mace Windu VS Sidious based on D20 Stats would end how ? Yoda vs Sidious ? Anakin VS Kenobi ? Anakin vs Dooku ? Kun f*cking up the entire PT people with uber force defence ?

Ok. Malak boosted up by the SF is more powerful than Exar Kun.
Revan boosted up by Bastilla's Battle Meditation and equiped with a broad array of weapons and stuff to help him was able to take him down. This proofs that Revan is more powerful than Exar Kun how exactly ? Oh thanks for waisting your time by constructing another useless "argument".

BlaxicanHydra

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Uh what? That's assuming he can even beat Anakin(he can't).

Don't you understand? Maul is "One of the greatest Sith apprentices in human history". he can beat ANYONE, cause he masterz teh Saberstaffs. And noes Jar Kai. So he's unbeatable.

xxXAcStylesXxx

Since I don't have the stats for Revan (do you ? Please post them) and we don't know how Revan defeated Malak, this would be again a flawed conclusion. Technically Revan still had all his weapons (grenades for example) and other stuff (health packs, stimulants, implants) to deal with Malak not to notice that he was most likely aided by Bastilla's Battle Meditation.

Self ownage.

And you don't even have to be at a level 20 (Malaks level) to beat Malak, I can beat him with a level 17 or 18 Revan with the right stats, the point is on paper, which is what we normally go off of in debates like this: Malak is stronger then Exar Kun, where as Revan whom after his duel with Malak gets an unsubstantiated power up from "remembering" all his dark side knowledge, which was said by Bane that even Sith Lords wouldn't even attempt half the shit he knew. Other then that we can tell it was a pretty damn clean victory because Malak wouldn't admit his inferiority to someone who got a lucky shot with a blaster, and he demands to fight the duel in ancient Sith traditions.

But after all that does that make Revan more powerful then Yoda? No. And which stats are you using for Yoda? I'm going by the PoTJ stats and he'd very much beat Revan. ANd the stats of the website for Yoda don't make sense as he looses a number of abilities he performs in the movies: dissipate energy, aware, burst of speed, his knowledge of the Jedi goes down, his knowledge of the mean streets of Coruscant goes down as well, he completely looses the ability to disguise himself, he's no longer persuasive, he forgets how to make sabers a bit, Other then that he generally becomes weaker.

Unless your gonna sti here and expect me to believe Yoda became a complete puss in three years those stats "on the website" are rendered irrelevant and uncanon since the contradict the ROTS novel and allow Revan to be seemingly more powerful then Yoda and allows ALOT of others to come close to his power, which was defined as being almost head and heels above the other Jedi of the time. And statistically Sidious should have whipped Yoda's ass, but that didn't happen and Yoda not only disarmed him but stopped and pushed back his force attacks and blew him across the room.

On further inspection those website stats (Hereos and Villians for ROTS) are ridicules, they're not congruent with the DSSB or the PotJ and they're not congruent with the canon the movie or the novel, except for Windu's and Grevious.

Remeber this line:

Conversely, I think it would be a determinant if books were artificially limited by game stats. So I would agree that a book is going to overrule a stat if there is a contradiction.

Meaning, he'd be able to beat Malak, meaning he's still stronger then Revan, who with all his dark side knowledge doesn't account for 700 years of Jedi Knowledge. Meaning theres no contradiction.

His wisdom has to be high for his force powers to be that strong (24 in FL) along with the SF boosting him, thus his wisdom would be high, as for intelligence its done based on whats displayed by the character, Exar displays more intelligence then Malak thus its higher.

No, everything he showed is there most of his mundane powers are covered under "Sith Sorcery" which is basically "Sith Magic".

Again, he is being boosted by the Star Forge and he probably excelled at that particular skill, as evident by his stat. As long as its not better then DE or Empire Palpy it doesn't matter.

Because Malak didn't have all of Revans knowledge, he had NEVER been to Malachor and didn't even know there was an academy there, and whos to say Revan shared everything with his apprentice? Why would he?

Who knows who cares, your nit picking.

Exactly, and as I said it'd be impossible for Exar to be 50% higher then Malak: Your original argument.

All those are from that shitty website version which contradict the canon. Based on those stats Anakin could get effectively owned by any member of the council and people like Cay Qel Droma could give him a run for his money. They are horrid.

Thats why Kuns ridiculously high force defense is rendered uncanon, and needs to be nerfed because that make him stronger then Empire Era Sidious. Which is BS, even Malak being boosted by the Star Forge can only muster a 15 in which Sidious in TMP is still stronger. If there are discrepancies with a few individual stats you adjust them based on common sense, like Vaders "move object" being higher then Empire Era Palpatines in that case Sidious who has lifted thousand pound+ Senate pods with ease and held them in stasis tossed them all the while laughing having the time of his life would logical be higher then Vaders. Again that still doesn't disprove then argument at hand or the medium.

What do you not get about STAR FORGE BOOSTED.

Been addressed.

He doesn't have any due to everyone playing a different version of him.

This had been handled and I'd like you to prove Bastila was boosting Revan considering you gain no active affects after she starts, the game makes no mention of it, the story makes no mention of it, Bastila was focusing her attention on the fleet battle and finally she's scared to be even in the same room as Malak who would she try to exert her will on him or even put her presence in a battle with such heated emotions going on?

So what are they fighting naked? Revan would get his robes and utility belt (something all Jedi carry) why can he dose up on stims or carry a health pack (which is standard equipment according to the PotJ)

Based on that shitty website stats Mace wins in saber combat, Sids wins in the force...look what happened. Based on the TMP Sids and ROTS Windu the same outcome...gee I wonder what happened in the movie.

Website versions remain the same out come as the movies, as do any other as Yoda largely won the duel but lost the fight.

Again non canon website stats they're mirrors of each other, with Anakin being a little stronger with the rage feat. Canon, Anakin should have absolutely pissed on him...wonder what actually happened...

Dooku should blow him away hence why Anakins stats on that website are bull shit and uncanon

Not canon.

Glad you admit it.

Been addressed. It proofs Revan is stronger since:

A. Malak acknowledges his power and him to be the superior

B. Revan after that regains his old memories making him even stronger.

Sure thing Nai, I'll do that when you stop nit picking with irrelevant bullshit.

Gideon

What website is this?

Gideon

Those stats had me crackin' up.

Allankles

Why would someone even consider using stats for their argument? Aren't stats merely used for pnp games? Establishing a consensus level for the characters, to be used for the games? They're just too inconsistent to be used as evidence IMV.

Gideon

They're out of whack. Stats can be used for support, but if your entire argument hinges around it, don't expect people to take you seriously. I'm not paying attention to the argument, I don't know who's using the stats: Nai or AC, but Nai pointed out a lot of major flaws in the statistics themselves; logic applies. Mace has a Force grip stat of +10 and Darth Sidious has one of +12? Bullshit. Yoda +8 telepathy and Palpatine +10? Bullshit. Mace with +16 battlemind and Yoda with +11? Bullshit.

Statistics (in most cases) = bullshit.

kamhal

Ok, i must say this kind of statistics are controversial, but I think we can still analyse them as a reference. Not a definitly true for sure, but can be one extra data to analyze. By the way

So? Sidious still has a Force Grip 20% more powerful. Still, as i said, it just a reference... Also, why can't palpatine to have a higher telepathy then yoda? Hadn't Palpatine to use this technique to communicate with Anakin in ROTS when he was quite far from him?
And about battlemind, i think quite logical windu having a higher one then yoda. Wasn't the battlemind ability one of the abilities that made windu to win against sidious? Besides, he could have practised this power a lot due to his vaadpad...

Anyway, I think people here are using too much this states, i think they have some mistakes that are not very canon...

Gideon

Darth "I'm-the-uber-Sith" Sidious having a twenty percent greater Force Grip (dark side power) than Jedi Master Mace Windu? Yeah, I see a big problem. I understand that Windu's use of Vaapad allows him to skirt on the edge of the light side lexicon of powers and touch the dark side, but that is utter bullshit. He shouldn't have anything close to the dark side control that any decent Sith Lord has.

The fact that the two were seemingly equal makes this hard to swallow for me. That's a massive disparity between two close rivals, especially with telepathy being a neutral power.

Point being: the two should have equal - or if not - damn close telepathic ability.

I don't, since Mace point-blank tells Palpatine in Dark Rendezvous that he isn't Yoda's equal as a diplomat or a warrior.

No, that would be Vaapad and Shatterpoint.

...Which makes no sense.

Darth Sexy

I'll get to your argument later Nai but the only thing I have to add is, Kun did NOT heal himself, it was Nadd. Telling him to "help himself" doesn't in any way constitute that Kun was magically able to heal himself. Notice how Nadd says "Good, now be healed"? Yea it was Nadd.

xxXAcStylesXxx

Originally posted by Gideon
They're out of whack. Stats can be used for support, but if your entire argument hinges around it, don't expect people to take you seriously. I'm not paying attention to the argument, I don't know who's using the stats: Nai or AC, but Nai pointed out a lot of major flaws in the statistics themselves; logic applies. Mace has a Force grip stat of +10 and Darth Sidious has one of +12? Bullshit. Yoda +8 telepathy and Palpatine +10? Bullshit. Mace with +16 battlemind and Yoda with +11? Bullshit.

Statistics (in most cases) = bullshit.

Well maybe you should have actually read my post to begin with before posting. My argument is Malak is stronger then Exar Kun, I back this up with the fact that he's called nearly unstoppable by the Star Wars Databank, that he's the most powerful dark force in the known galaxy at the time (much like Kun), was said by the WotC article to have devastating dark side ability, and he has a 35,000 year old dark side space station drawing energy from a star powering him up a space station that drains and kills beings not capable of handling it. The stats supplement this and further provide insight into Malaks overall ability, and what exactly makes him better then Kun. If Malak is more powerful then Kun, then that makes Revan inturn also stronger.

As for the website in which you complaining about in you post its:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=starwars/article/sw20050714a

Which as I said is largely noncanon as it contradicts the PotJ sourcbook, the DSSB sourcebook, the ROTS novel and the ROTS movie. Thus rendering those stats for those characters non canon (something I delved into deeper other post) as for why I'm using them IMO its far better to use them (when they have no inconsistency which Malaks largely don't) then to go on for pages about "OMG kun did this feat!111! Revan did this feat11111!!1 somebody said this about exar!!!!Somebody called revan uber!"

I'll post this again for those who don't seem to want to read:

So tell me again: whats wrong with my argument?