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In a battle between the two... who do you think would win?

Dooku, easily.

There is a good chance he would win... but, I say Qui-Gon.

Why? He was excellent with the force. It would be very close, but I believe Jinn can take him.

Jinn is good with the force, but Dooku is by far better. He has not only shown a much wider variety of force powers, but extreme force strenght, only surpassed by Sidious and Yoda themselfs as far as the movies go.

With saber, Dooku wins this by far. He is the superior to Darth Maul, who totally destroyed Qui-Gon, and wasn't even at full strenght.

Originally posted by kamikz
With saber, Dooku wins this by far. He is the superior to Darth Maul, who totally destroyed Qui-Gon, and wasn't even at full strenght.

He only won Jinn because Jinn was using the Ataru lightsaber form in an enclosed space. In this battle, I was thinking an open space, such as the Geonosis Arena.

And do not underestimate Qui's force abilities. He is quite adept.

I believe it would be exeptionally close, though. I am 50.1% sure of Jinn.

Originally posted by rogueleaderchad
He only won Jinn because Jinn was using the Ataru lightsaber form in an enclosed space. In this battle, I was thinking an open space, such as the Geonosis Arena.

And do not underestimate Qui's force abilities. He is quite adept.

I believe it would be exeptionally close, though. I am 50.1% sure of Jinn.
Wrong, Maul would have won anyways, as he was matching Kenobi and Jinn at the same time before there is no reason to asusme that Jinn would have ever beat him one on one. Plus, The New Essential Guide to Characters states that Maul wasn't at full strength during that duel. Maul > Jinn any day. Anoon beats Jinn when they spar and Maul beat Anoon as well, for all it counts.

Jinn is strong, yes, but Dooku is one of the greatest swordsmen in the history of the Jedi, he put up a good fight against Yoda and defeated ROTS Kenobi. Qui-Gon just doesn't compare. It's not even very close - Dooku wins comfortably. Even if TPM Kenobi was with Jinn I doubt Jinn could do it, doubt it very much.

Dooku would pwn them even together. There is no need for me to reply now, DS said it all.


And yes, Qui-Gon is adept in force powers, but Dooku is beyond so, in the words of Yoda "The most taught in the force, the most skilled" etc. etc. etc.

Ok, ok, I give... Dooku would win.

Lets add someone to the mix: Boba Fett, the BEST bounty hunter in the galaxy.

I give it to Bobba and Jinn. Here's how the battle would go:

Jinn starts running to Dooku while Fett blasts shots at the Sith. Jinn and Dooku duel it out, while Bobba moves to the side with his jetback to get a better shot. Dooku, distracted by the laser shots of the best bounty hunter in the galaxy, either gets saber-sliced or burnt to a crisp by blaster beam.

Originally posted by kamikz
Dooku, easily.

Dooku wins here easily, that doesn't mean Jinn is weak, only that Dooku is so good, Jinn is also one of the most powerful Jedi of all time, he is probably in top 30 of all time.

Originally posted by Count Makashi
Dooku wins here easily, that doesn't mean Jinn is weak, only that Dooku is so good, Jinn is also one of the most powerful Jedi of all time, he is probably in top 30 of all time.

Yes its not a shot at Jinn, Qui-Gon was one of the greatest all around jedi's in the history of the order, but in a fight he is just outmatched.

Dooku should take this no-problem. However, Jinn is powerful and losing against Dooku doesn't mean he's weak at all.

I think we've already established this after the 4 first posts, there's a new fight now, Boba and Qui-Gon vs Dooku.

If that's the case, then Boba and Jinn would most probably win

Originally posted by kamikz
Dooku, easily.

Originally posted by kamikz
Dooku would pwn them even together. There is no need for me to reply now, DS said it all.

I seriously doubt that Dooku would pwn Qui-Gon and TPM Obi-Wan at the same time, but he would probably win. Not at full strength Maul nearly did it, he had a double-bladed lightsaber, though, but still, I see no pwnage in Dooku vs. those 2.


Which Boba is this?

Originally posted by rogueleaderchad
In a battle between the two... who do you think would win? Even though they're both old farts, I think Dooku kept in shape more, plus was much better with a lightsaber...also, I am not sure if Qui Gon has the ability to block sith lightning...if not it will be a quick battle indeed. Either way Dooku takes this

Originally posted by darthsith19
I seriously doubt that Dooku would pwn Qui-Gon and TPM Obi-Wan at the same time, but he would probably win. Not at full strength Maul nearly did it, he had a double-bladed lightsaber, though, but still, I see no pwnage in Dooku vs. those 2.

Of course he could pwn them. I dont remember the exact quote, but it talked about how Dooku knew all about the 'foolish acrobatics' of Ataru (might have been in the RotS Novel). It made it very clear that Dooku knew how to effectively destroy an Ataru practicioner. TPM Kenobi is practically a non factor. Dooku pwned RotS Kenobi with the force, I dont see how his younger and far less experienced self will fair any better.

Sure he does, practically anyone with a lightsaber can block lightning, unless it's shot from someone really powerful (Sidious, Nihilic, ect.) in which case the lightsaber may well fly right out of the defenders hands, depending on how strong the defender is physically.


That's true, they both use Ataru, and Dooku knows Ataru very well. However, I've never heard the part about him knowing how to completely destroy an Ataru user, I'll need a quote. ROTS Kenobi uses a defensive form, so Dooku had many opportunities to use the Force. TPM Kenobi fought with offense, thus he could attack Dooku to keep him from using the Force. If Qui-Gon and Kenobi were just as proficient in another form as they were in Ataru then they'd lose, but not get pwnd. As it is, I'm not sure if they'd get pwnd or not.

Dooku could get rid of padawan Kenobi in literally a few seconds.

Originally posted by kiddo44
Dooku could get rid of padawan Kenobi in literally a few seconds.
No.

Originally posted by Rampant ox
Of course he could pwn them. I dont remember the exact quote, but it talked about how Dooku knew all about the 'foolish acrobatics' of Ataru (might have been in the RotS Novel). It made it very clear that Dooku knew how to effectively destroy an Ataru practicioner. TPM Kenobi is practically a non factor. Dooku pwned RotS Kenobi with the force, I dont see how his younger and far less experienced self will fair any better. It was the RotS novel that stated Dooku's knowledge of Ataru, fyi Rampant. :P

Originally posted by Lord Saboteur
It was the RotS novel that stated Dooku's knowledge of Ataru, fyi Rampant. :P

Cheers.

Originally posted by darthsith19
I seriously doubt that Dooku would pwn Qui-Gon and TPM Obi-Wan at the same time, but he would probably win. Not at full strength Maul nearly did it, he had a double-bladed lightsaber, though, but still, I see no pwnage in Dooku vs. those 2.


Which Boba is this?


I seriously don't. Look, if he sends out a push against both, neither of them has the force strength to parry it, and both will fly away. Doesn't matter if there are two of them, this is one padawan who has shown almost NOTHING in the force, and a master who hasn't really shown any impressive strength in force combat. This is against a Lord of the Sith, one of the best that is. He is not TO far from Yoda and Sidious as well.

He could easily toss away one before they even get close to him, and during the fight he could hit one with lightning (like he did Bulq), or just purley outmatch them in saber fighting, seeing how he kept both Rots Obi-Wan and Anakin at bay, who would pwn Qui-Gon and Obi at this state. Maul had a double bladed saber, yes, but Dooku doesn't need that, seeing how he could keep the other two mentioned above at bay for a while.
In pure saber it won't be pwnage, but it won't be pure saber, he could take them out any second.

I really want to say that Qui Gon and Boba could beat Dooku, but, I don't think that's the case. Boba could be put out of the fight instantly by lightning or a choke, maybe serving as enough of a distraction for Qui Gon to make it to melee, and be completely put on his ass. The ROTS Novel makes it clear that Dooku knows Ataru like the back of his hand, plus whatever spins Qui Gon might put on his own personal use of it, seeing as how Dooku taught Qui Gon and sparred with him literally thousands of times.

Maybe they could pull like... 4/10 if there were no offensive force powers allowed or Dooku wanted more of a challenge, maybe even take the majority, seeing as how Makashi isn't the best against blasters, plus he'd be under pressure from Qui Gon...

Is it actually a fact that Makashi isn't good against blasters, or is it just one of the things that they wanted to even out the style in KOTOR?

I seriously don't see why it would be. Dooku is still trained in other styles, has damn good pre-cog and has defended against many blasters for sure, I don't see him having a hard time at all.

Originally posted by kamikz
Is it actually a fact that Makashi isn't good against blasters, or is it just one of the things that they wanted to even out the style in KOTOR?

I seriously don't see why it would be. Dooku is still trained in other styles, has damn good pre-cog and has defended against many blasters for sure, I don't see him having a hard time at all.

It doesn't have the same devestating effect that it does in melee, and while Dooku is still very skilled and has blocked all sorts of shots before, this is Boba fett.

Originally posted by darthsith19
No.




DS, your kidding yourself, to think Padawan Kenobi could do anything to Dooku, and all what form he used, he got pwnd by Dooku twice b/c Dooku is so much more powerful than him, and wasn't ROTS Kenobi trying to attack Dooku when he got tossed? Kenobi as a padawan would be a complete non-factor, then Qui-Gon and Dooku would fight, and Dooku would beat him easily.

Dooku still wins.

He's going to Force Push them both at once? What if they try to Force Push him first? I doubt it will be that simple, or AOTC Anakin and Kenobi would have been gone in seconds.

Qui-Gon taught himself how to become a Force Ghost, even Yoda couldn't teach himself that. Proves that Jinn is very strong with the Force. Kenobi kept up with him when they were using Force Speed to run from the droideka's, he jumped very high, Force Pushed battle droids, ect.

Jinn is one of the strongest Jedi of his era as well, and Kenobi's damn strong for a Padawan. Together they make a perfect team. Dooku isn't that close to Yoda or Sidious, either, against Yoda in the Force duel Yoda seemed to be casually blocking all his attacks, he never seemed to be struggling at all as he was with Sidious.

Is that why he didn't do that against Tholme and Bulq, is that why he was only able to do that when he went up against Anakin and Kenobi in AOTC because Anakin rushed in rashly?

Yes, however he wasn't able to do that right away, he had to do it when Sora had his defenses down. That took any unknown amount of time since we don't see ihe beginning of the fight, for all we know it could have taken him several minutes to get to that point in the duel.

Yes, for what? A minute? And then (and I can quote the script if need be) he was getting tired and was forced to use the Force to dispsoe of Kenobi. Then Anakin took him out in 30 seconds. Lets not kid ourselves, Dooku wasn't going to last much longer in pure saber combat either way.

Yes, your right, it is possible to fight two people at once without a double-bladed lightsaber, but let's not kid ourselves, having a double-bladed lightsaber when fighting two opponents at once is an advantage, however slight.

He could take them out any second with the Force? if that's true, then how come he didn't take AOTC Anakin or Kenobi out any second with the Force when he fought them one on one? If he couldn't do it in one on one combat I don't see how he could do it here, unless you're proposing that AOTC Anakin > TPM Jinn and Kenobi at the same time.



Did I ever say that Padawan Kenobi could do anything to Dooku? No, he could atatck him with a blade to stop him from using the Force, though. Yes, Dooku is a lot more pwoerful than he is, but it's not like it's going to be over in one second or anything, AOTC Anakin lasted 50 some seconds against Dooku and TPM Kenobi is just a little bit behind AOTC Anakin. If Kenobi was trying to attack him then he wasn't very quick at it, remember than he hardly ever uses offense so he's not that great at it, he mostly uses Soresu which is all defense.

Originally posted by darthsith19
He's going to Force Push them both at once? What if they try to Force Push him first? I doubt it will be that simple, or AOTC Anakin and Kenobi would have been gone in seconds.

Qui-Gon taught himself how to become a Force Ghost, even Yoda couldn't teach himself that. Proves that Jinn is very strong with the Force. Kenobi kept up with him when they were using Force Speed to run from the droideka's, he jumped very high, Force Pushed battle droids, ect.

Jinn is one of the strongest Jedi of his era as well, and Kenobi's damn strong for a Padawan. Together they make a perfect team. Dooku isn't that close to Yoda or Sidious, either, against Yoda in the Force duel Yoda seemed to be casually blocking all his attacks, he never seemed to be struggling at all as he was with Sidious.

Is that why he didn't do that against Tholme and Bulq, is that why he was only able to do that when he went up against Anakin and Kenobi in AOTC because Anakin rushed in rashly?

Yes, however he wasn't able to do that right away, he had to do it when Sora had his defenses down. That took any unknown amount of time since we don't see ihe beginning of the fight, for all we know it could have taken him several minutes to get to that point in the duel.

Yes, for what? A minute? And then (and I can quote the script if need be) he was getting tired and was forced to use the Force to dispsoe of Kenobi. Then Anakin took him out in 30 seconds. Lets not kid ourselves, Dooku wasn't going to last much longer in pure saber combat either way.

Yes, your right, it is possible to fight two people at once without a double-bladed lightsaber, but let's not kid ourselves, having a double-bladed lightsaber when fighting two opponents at once is an advantage, however slight.

He could take them out any second with the Force? if that's true, then how come he didn't take AOTC Anakin or Kenobi out any second with the Force when he fought them one on one? If he couldn't do it in one on one combat I don't see how he could do it here, unless you're proposing that AOTC Anakin > TPM Jinn and Kenobi at the same time.



Did I ever say that Padawan Kenobi could do anything to Dooku? No, he could atatck him with a blade to stop him from using the Force, though. Yes, Dooku is a lot more pwoerful than he is, but it's not like it's going to be over in one second or anything, AOTC Anakin lasted 50 some seconds against Dooku and TPM Kenobi is just a little bit behind AOTC Anakin. If Kenobi was trying to attack him then he wasn't very quick at it, remember than he hardly ever uses offense so he's not that great at it, he mostly uses Soresu which is all defense.

DS, no, just NO. He didn't defeat AOTC Anakin and Kenobi, because he wanted them to see, how powerful he was, this is from Labyrinth of Evil

Obi-Wan folded his arms. "I've thought long and hard about that day, Master, and I believe Dooku couldn't help revealing himself - - even though he may have regretted it. When he was fleeing for his ship, it was almost as if he allowed himself to be seen; almost as if he was attempting to draw us into an engagement. -Kenobi

But my instincts tell me that he wanted desperately to demonstrate how powerful he had become. I think he was genuinely surprised to see you turn up. But instead of killing Anakin or me, he deliberately left us alive,
to send a message to the Jedi." "Right you are, Obi-Wan. Pride undid him. Forced him, it did, to show us his true face. -Kenobi and Yoda

And so what if Qui-Gon taught himself that and Yoda couldn't, what does this help him in combat. Yoda is still allot better combatant, then Jinn.

But he still did it to Sora, he can do it in a fight with Qui-Gon and Kenobi as well, it would just take some time to set it up, especially because TPM Kenobi is very naive.

He was getting tired mostly because of Anakins strikes and Anakin is the best ligtsaber fighter in the movies.

Having a double-bladed sabers isn't always an a advantage, in small areas, it could be a disadvantage and Dooku is better dualist then Maul, by some margin.

AOTC Anakin is better by TPM kenobi by great margin, AOTC Anakin gave Dooku a hard time, TPM Kenobi would get demolished. And TPM Kenobi was a Ataru user, like his master, he switched styles after.

"But my instincts tell me that he wanted desperately to demonstrate how powerful he had become.'

Okay, yes, and how would owning them both in seconds not show how powerful he was?


It proved that Qui-Gon is powerful in the Force.


Oh, I agree, however, what I was trying to say is that he won't be able to do it right away to one of them and then own the other in seconds. It could take minutes even to set it up (in which case, it'd probably be shorter just to duel them and win). I'm not saying that Dooku wouldn't beat those 2, you know, just that he wouldn't be pwnage (though not super close, either, somewhere in between).

No, it was the combined efforts of Kenobi and Anakin that wore him out, seeing as he was getting tired before he disposed of Kenobi.


In the theed palace it is an advantage. Dooku is better than Maul at dueling by a little, but what I'm saying is, because Maul posses a double bladed lightsaber, Dooku would be further ahead of Maul in single combat than he would be in 2 on 1 combat. Or, with a single bladed saber Maul may not have been able to defeat (defeat, not kill) Kenobi and Jinn in TPM. The double-blade gives the user a slight edge when fighting multiple opponents at once.


I thought Dooku wasn't trying to kill Anakin in AOTC.

No, he is greater, but by a small margin. Anakin would get pwnd by TPM Kenobi and Jinn, 2 on 1. He would lose to Jinn alone as well.

Dooku owned him as a master and that was with ROTS Anakin on him as well, who in a duel is much stronger than Jinn, Kenobi got force pushed hard first and then tried to attack Dooku, and got thrown across the room, i don't know how you figure that as a padawan, he could even pose Dooku any threat at all. Kenobi could swing at him and the Dooku could just back up and do excatly what he did to him in ROTS, but much easier, since ROTS Kenobi is so powerful and TPM Kenobi was not that powerful.

Where does it say that? In the novel, its describe than when hes fighting Anakin alone, it takes all his efforts just to block the blows b/c their so hard. Kenobi did not excatly take alot out of him in that duel, since he was out of it in less than a minute.

Its not that small of a margin, considering hes a better swordsman and stronger in the force.

Originally posted by jollyjim311
It doesn't have the same devestating effect that it does in melee, and while Dooku is still very skilled and has blocked all sorts of shots before, this is Boba fett.


I never argued that, I argued wether it was not effective or outright bad against blasters, which I believe only KOTOR made up to make the gameplay style of Makashi have a weakness.

Well, Makashi is designed for saber duels only, the Jedi have been drooping it for some time before the PT for other forms, because there wore no opponents to fight with sabers, all of their opponents had blasters. Maybe Makashi isn't bad against blaster, (it also depends on a user, how good he is), but it is the last preferred form against blasters.

Once again (the need to repeat myself here is ridiculous) Kenobi winn NOT pose a threat to Dooku alone, he will, however, be able to attack Dooku to stop him from using the Force. ROTS Kenobi was unable to do this as he has mastered a defensive form.


I know that's what it says in the novel, I was the one who found first posted it at tfn, wasn't I? However, I recently realized how foolish I was never to check the script, for I remember Sorgo (curse his soul) once posted proof that Dooku was getting tired before he disposed of Kenobi, and Kenobi was getting tired as well. So I checked the script. Wa-la:
As the battle proceeds, OBI-WAN and COUNT DOOKU are tired. ANAKIN is stronger as he becomes angry. ANAKIN continues to drive the attack on DOOKU. COUNT DOOKU throws OBI-WAN back using the Force. ANAKIN and COUNT DOOKU move up the stairs. As they reach the upper landing of the General's Quarters, ANAKIN leaps over COUNT DOOKU. OBI-WAN reaches the top of the stairs, destroying TWO SUPER BATTLE DROIDS.

Posted more than just the first sentance so that it is clear I didn't make it up. The first sentence could easily be forged.


Yes, he is greater with a saber and the Force by a small margin. You like to use Nick Gillard quotes, and he states that AOTC Anakin's a 7 and TPM Kenobi is a 6 or 7, so that's a small margin. What has Anakin done with the Force to put him above Kenobi by mroe than a small margin?

Originally posted by darthsith19
He's going to Force Push them both at once? What if they try to Force Push him first? I doubt it will be that simple, or AOTC Anakin and Kenobi would have been gone in seconds.

Qui-Gon taught himself how to become a Force Ghost, even Yoda couldn't teach himself that. Proves that Jinn is very strong with the Force. Kenobi kept up with him when they were using Force Speed to run from the droideka's, he jumped very high, Force Pushed battle droids, ect.

Jinn is one of the strongest Jedi of his era as well, and Kenobi's damn strong for a Padawan. Together they make a perfect team. Dooku isn't that close to Yoda or Sidious, either, against Yoda in the Force duel Yoda seemed to be casually blocking all his attacks, he never seemed to be struggling at all as he was with Sidious.



Yeah, not so hard, a push can be aimed at several persons at once. And I don't see them force pushing likely because...
1. It's not a part of their strategy. Unlike Dooku, who does use the force when outnumbered.
2. Even if they did, I doubt it would have great effect. A padawan and a somewhat good force user against one of the best ever known. Says itself...


No, that speaks for force knowledge and understanding of it. It clearly doesn't require THAT much potential, seeing how Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon themselfs could do it, neither with an amazing potential.
And Obi keeping up with Qui-Gon more likely downgrades Qui-Gon, seeing how we don't know shit about TPM Obi anyway, and he doesn't impress that much. Seriously, speed, jump and push are the most basic of powers, and none are really that powerful related in combat for padawan Obi-Wan.


Wasn't Kenobi almost on the edge of not getting trained? And he might be good for a padawan, but "damn good"? What states that? He got tooled by Maul except for when he used rage and surprised him, but Maul got to the point where he, from being beaten down to the highest degree from Sidious, really slaughtered, to almost besting him. It's a huge leap in power, certainley nothing that can be taken into account of normal TPM Obi's power.


My point is, if Maul can defeat these two, not at full strength, and not by straining himself THAT much, Dooku could certainley do it easily. Not only is Dooku ahead of him in saber combat, he is miles and miles ahead of him in force powers. I didn't see Qui-Gon nor Obi-Wan getting close to Maul in that either. They could do nothing to change the face of the battle through force powers.


And Dooku did use the force on Anakin and Obi-Wan in AOTC, he took Anakin out with ease, then duelled Obi and had a little fun. He was toying around in that battle.

and once again you are completly kidding yourself to think that it matters what form he uses. Padawan Kenobi could attack Dooku all he wants he is not strong enough in any way to even threaten him, he would be thrown immediatly. Kenobi in the TPM is a level 6 and not that strong in the force, using the darkside yes he could push Maul, but Dooku it wouldn't matter what he did, he would be gone quick.


So Kenobi after what 20 seconds is tired ? Thats about how long he last in the movie, but later on is able to fight Anakin for about 10 minutes, yeah DS that makes alot of sense, im sure he got tired from that long fight with Dooku.

DS forgot to mention the line where Dooku completely regains his stamina using the force.

Yes, however, if half his push is on Kenobi then Jinn may be able to block the half pushed at him. Or they could stand far enough away from each other to not let this happen.

Yes, he does do this, however, with the exception of the AOTC duel, he didn't use the Force right away, he engaged in saber combat first and used the Force later.

A good Padawan and one of the strongest masters in the order vs. one of the strongest Sith Lord's ever known? Could be close, but it doesn't need to be. Jinn uses the Force on Dooku, while Dooku is busy blocking his Force attacks Kenobi comes up on him with a saber. He distracts him, Jinn then rushes forward with his saber. Now they are engaged in saber combat and there will be no pwnage.

Neither with amazing potential? Qui-Gon was the best saber weilder his saber instructor had seen in 400 years. he rivaled Mace Windu. Not amazing potential? Kenobi, on the other hand, was one of the strongest Jedi of his era, bested Grievous and Vader and survived Order 66. Not amazing potential? Who are you kidding? Their not like Yoda's or Anakin's, but compared to tthe otehr 10 thousand Jedi in their order's, their potential is amazing. If one invent the Force Ghost technique then they have to be strong with the Force. Force Knowledge is the same thing.

How does is downgrade Qui-Gon? Because we don't know shit about Obi-Wan, but we do know shit about Qui-Gon so it would tell us some shit about Obi-Wan, wouldn't it. Speed, push, jump aren't powerful? Then what has Dooku done to be considered so good with the Force?

Nothing states it. Compare him to other padawans, ESB Luke, Zule Xiss, Scout, Etain-Tur Mukan, ect. and he is damn good. Also the fact that he was like a day away from becoming a Knight and the afct that, when enraged, he was nearly even with Maul, and you can clearly tell that is is damn good for a padawan, at least by the time he's 25 years old.

Kenobi did get tooled, however, not much more so than Qui-Gon did, though some. Kenobi got kicked twice, Jinn got kicked once. In the rest of the film when the fight battle droids and such Qui-Gon doesn't appear to be a great deal above Kenobi, which speaks for his power as well.

Maybe he could do it easily, though only because of the ataru thing. Without that and it wouldn't be easy, though not hard, either. Maul had the advantage of the double-bladed lightsaber, remember.

Dooku is in no way miles ahead of Maul in saber combat. Maul nearly killed Sidious in a duel and beat Anoon Bondara, who is referred to as the order's finest swordsman. Dooku > Maul in saber combat, but it is definitely close.


He didn't use it in the actual duels, just at the beginning. So why would/could he use the Force against Jinn and Kenobi once they engage him in saber combat. Kenobi also had to be very tired when he fought Dooku in AOTC. Look at all he had been through, and likely without food or water for how many days? And little sleep as well. He had to have been exhausted.

So Kenobi is swinging at Dooku as fast as he can, which would be quite fast, since he uses Ataru, which focuses primarily on speed, and Dooku's just going to stand there and toss him around with the Force while Kenobi's lightsaber bounces harmlessly off oh his chest? Right...

Still awaiting proof of AOTC Anakin being a good margin above TPM Kenobi with the Force, as well.


Dooku and Kenobi are tired. During the fight with Anakin he is using Soresu the entire time, which is more energy efficient, he is being driven back the entire time, only blocking and making very few attacks of his own. For some of the time they aren't even fighting but escaping lava flows and stuff, and it is quite clear from Kenobi's panting near the end of the duel, which isn't 10 minutes long, that he is tired, while Anakin is not, so yes, this makes perfect sense.





Because I was quoting the script, and that line isn't in the script, it's in the novel, and he doesn't completely regain his stamina, he regains some of it.

that would have no effect


Nobody doubts how good Kenobi was as a master, but this is a padawan.

correct, and this is why Maul and Dooku are not close, b/c it would not matter what TPM Kenobi would do to Dooku, he would never be close to even.


B/C he uses Ataru
, that would mean nothing, it would not matter if Padawan Kenobi was using Vaapad, stop acting like Dooku would have trouble with a Padawan b/c of his saber form.

How do you get tired from 30 seconds of fighting?? In the movie thats about how long it last, go watch it. In the novel its a long fight, but Dooku gets power back.

And DS how many Magnaguards did Kenobi take out in ROTS?

Originally posted by darthsith19
Yes, however, if half his push is on Kenobi then Jinn may be able to block the half pushed at him. Or they could stand far enough away from each other to not let this happen.

Yes, he does do this, however, with the exception of the AOTC duel, he didn't use the Force right away, he engaged in saber combat first and used the Force later.

A good Padawan and one of the strongest masters in the order vs. one of the strongest Sith Lord's ever known? Could be close, but it doesn't need to be. Jinn uses the Force on Dooku, while Dooku is busy blocking his Force attacks Kenobi comes up on him with a saber. He distracts him, Jinn then rushes forward with his saber. Now they are engaged in saber combat and there will be no pwnage.

Neither with amazing potential? Qui-Gon was the best saber weilder his saber instructor had seen in 400 years. he rivaled Mace Windu. Not amazing potential? Kenobi, on the other hand, was one of the strongest Jedi of his era, bested Grievous and Vader and survived Order 66. Not amazing potential? Who are you kidding? Their not like Yoda's or Anakin's, but compared to tthe otehr 10 thousand Jedi in their order's, their potential is amazing. If one invent the Force Ghost technique then they have to be strong with the Force. Force Knowledge is the same thing.

How does is downgrade Qui-Gon? Because we don't know shit about Obi-Wan, but we do know shit about Qui-Gon so it would tell us some shit about Obi-Wan, wouldn't it. Speed, push, jump aren't powerful? Then what has Dooku done to be considered so good with the Force?

Nothing states it. Compare him to other padawans, ESB Luke, Zule Xiss, Scout, Etain-Tur Mukan, ect. and he is damn good. Also the fact that he was like a day away from becoming a Knight and the afct that, when enraged, he was nearly even with Maul, and you can clearly tell that is is damn good for a padawan, at least by the time he's 25 years old.

Kenobi did get tooled, however, not much more so than Qui-Gon did, though some. Kenobi got kicked twice, Jinn got kicked once. In the rest of the film when the fight battle droids and such Qui-Gon doesn't appear to be a great deal above Kenobi, which speaks for his power as well.

Maybe he could do it easily, though only because of the ataru thing. Without that and it wouldn't be easy, though not hard, either. Maul had the advantage of the double-bladed lightsaber, remember.

Dooku is in no way miles ahead of Maul in saber combat. Maul nearly killed Sidious in a duel and beat Anoon Bondara, who is referred to as the order's finest swordsman. Dooku > Maul in saber combat, but it is definitely close.


He didn't use it in the actual duels, just at the beginning. So why would/could he use the Force against Jinn and Kenobi once they engage him in saber combat. Kenobi also had to be very tired when he fought Dooku in AOTC. Look at all he had been through, and likely without food or water for how many days? And little sleep as well. He had to have been exhausted.

Yeah? And how long will they keep up with that? Seriously, Kenobi who failed all the time to parry a push from Darth Maul, will not in a thousand years, parry a halfly powered push from Dooku. Dooku toyed people all the time, he lifted a FINGER to ragdoll Assaj. Assaj > TPM Obi, by alot.


I only argued what Dooku COULD do if he wanted to. Not what he did once, and might do again.


A good padawan who has shown us nothing but basics, and a master who has done the same, vs someone who stood toe to toe with Yoda (and even made him strain a bit on parrying his lightning).
If Jinn will use the force on him, of course Dooku is going to counter it. If they are going to use the force, it'll be at the same time, not "Dooku's turn, Qui-Gon's turn". Dooku WILL win that duel, and Qui-Gon will be taken down. He could lightning his ass, or win a push duel easily, or just choke him ala ROTS, and handle the incoming padawan Obi the same way he did ROTS Anakin.


I fail to see how being a good swordsman equals potential? It only requires dedication, Anoon Bondara didn't show extreme potential or force mastery, did he? Did Maul? Is there no reason to why Obi-Wan almost didn't get a trainer? Was it because his amazing potential? Not really....
And what Obi-Wan did in ROTS, after 13 more years, dedication and war, does not equal to his potential. I have not once seen Obi-Wan do anything impressive with the force, not once something that should tell me, "Damn, he is easily above most jedi". Above them, yes, but not amazingly so.

And I don't agree. To have force knowledge does not equal having an amazing potential. The reason to why Qui-Gon discovered this is because he had different ways of seeing the force that no other jedi in the order shared. THAT is why he figured it out.



First of all, yes, if Qui-Gon does not show anything above a padawan in force powers, I would consider that a downgrade to his abilities. Second, I would especially consider that, seeing how NOTHING they did was impressive. Dooku has done other things than basics, but the most impressive thing is that he actually does such impressive forms of basic that he is considered one of the best. Do tell what is impressive with pushing 3 battle droids.




I don't know about half the comparisons to padawans you gave, but you cannot certainley compare him to ESB Luke, he had a week of training, tops.
And Obi got knighted since he defeated a sith, did he not? And that was not by skill, but by luck.


Qui-Gon is certainley above TPM Obi by a good margin in swordsmanship. Doesn't matter how many times they got kicked, he still had alot more trouble with Qui-Gon, and Qui-Gon was easily the better fighter, unless you wanna say that TPM could nearly equal Mace Windu by TPM? (Btw, before the age of 25, wasn't Mace a master?)


Yet Dooku has shown to be able to hold up both ROTS Anakin and Obi-Wan in saber battle for a while, even doing as much as tripping Anakin during their fight. (Not with the force. It's only in the novel)
These two would obliderate Qui-Gon and Obi, in mere seconds. And this is Dooku with his force powers, who would it not have been for Anakin's sickly strong powers saber skills, would've won that battle. He wouldn't need a double bladed saber, he has taken on multiple opponents more times than Maul has, and done better.


I didn't say he was "miles and miles" above Maul in SABER COMBAT, I said he was in force powers. I said he was above Maul in saber combat, only above, nothing else.
And I've already explained that the anger that is infused in people can make them grow sickly strong. Maul got obliderated by Sidious until this rage, and TPM Obi got murdered until his rage. It has no bearing on their normal fighting skills, since they won't be fighting in that rage.


Dooku can use force powers in a duel (ROTS, against Sora and Tholme), and he will likely have one of them taken out before they even come close, the other one gets toyed as hell.
And then I can say that Dooku would've done a hell of alot better against Yoda, because he had been fighting two great jedi in the order before this meeting.



Bottom line, if Dooku sends out a push, one hand against Qui-Gon, one against Obi, they WILL get knocked down. Maybe not instantly, seeing how they might counter it by a little, but they will lose whatever ground they may hold, and they WILL die eventually. They don't stand a chance in a force fight, not a chance, even together, and the moment they would try to get close in it, he will get them.
I don't see how Obi-Wan would parry it at all. Dooku is easily many times stronger than Maul is, who Obi could not parry a push from at all. One hand from Dooku is more than what he can handle, he will be smashed by "the brick wall" and sent flying into the another wall, and possibly knocked out instantly. Qui-Gon then proceeds to get tooled.

In a saber fights, he wins, not super easily, but he wins.

Yes, it would force Dooku to block it, which would stop Dooku from using any attacks of his own. Mission accomplished.

kamikz was referring to Kenobi's potential. This prooves Kenobi's potential. Did you even read what I responded to or did you just throw this in randomly?

Yes, it would be close - TPM Kenobi when fighting with the dark side was a level 7 swordsman. Tired Maul was still slightly stronger than him, which makes him a 7 or 8. If tired Maul is 7 or 8 then full strength Maul is an 8. Dooku's a level 8, too. So they are close. If you really think that Anoon > Yoda (in saber skills), as COD and Sdadow Hunter say then Maul is a 9, but I don't but the Anoon > Yoda thing, the authors of those books simply didn't realise how good Yoda was since we had yet to see Yoda fight.

Are you being blantely arrogant on purpose or does it just come naturally to you? Name one instance when I stated that Dooku would have trouble with a padawan, much less because of the padawan's saber form. You, however, have stated that he ahd trouble with a padawan (AOTC Anakin). So quit being ignorant and show me where I said that.

The script > the novel. Dooku does not get all his power back, post a quote saying that he does. You get tired from 30 seconds of fighting maybe because you have been fighting countless battle droids before than duel. But mainly because Lucas says so so it goes.

2 - he went between 2 of them, killing one as he slid past it. He then proceeded to behead the second. This didn't stop the second and Kenobi ended up cutting it into a few pieces.




Long enough to not get pwnd.


"DARTH MAUL seems to have the upper hand as OBI-WAN grows weary." - TPM script

And, while Kenobi was exhausted, he left an opening over for Maul to use the Force. Kenobi was tired and wasn't expecting a Force attack. Not being able to parry the push in this instance hardly downgrades him.


You know, that's almost good proof, but I was read Dark Rendezvous. Asajj wasn't trying to block Dooku's attack so your point is moot.


Kenobi has shown us skills not terribly far from Qui-Gon. Qui-Gon was the best lightsaber wielder his lightsaber instructor has seen in 400 years. he invented the Force Ghost move and rivaled Mace Windu. How are either of these guys only shown us basics? Dooku in no way made Yoda strain and yes, he went toe-to-toe with him and was forced to flee after a minute.


Then they will go at it in a Force duel and meanwhile Kenobi can get to Dooku in mere seconds, that's quicker than Jinn will be taken out in. You are seriously underestimating Qui-Gon here, and Kenobi (to a lesser extent). Jinn can block lightning with his saber. Kenobi can get to Dooku far quicker than Qui-Gon can be killed with Force Choke. He won't be able to handle an incoming Kenobi and a Qui-Gon at the same time. If he switches his attention to an incoming Kenobi, he could take him out temporarily with lightning if Kenobi doesn't know to block it with his saber, but while he's doing that (or trying to do it) Jinn can Force Push him and then leap at him with a blade. Dooku would likely get up in time but then it'd be a saber duel, not a Force duel. If Kenobi blocked the lightning then it's 2 on 1 and is close with Dooku winning. If Kenobi has been taken out and Dooku goes all out on Jinn then he'll *might* be able to take him out before Kenobi gets back up, but I doubt it, and once Kenobi gets back up it will be, once again, 2 on 1, saber duel.



Bondara and Maul weren't shown as not having Force Mastery, either. It's likely impossible to be the order's finest swordsman and not have at least decent Force Skills. Kenobi not being trained is bullshit, the movies should contradict this because they show he is very pwoerful, but maybe it was because he was very rash and had nothing to do with his potential anyways.

He parried Anakin's Force Push, and Anakin collapsed a football stadium sized room just by yelling. He Force Pushed Grievous a huge distance, and in Light and Dark he uses the Force to break water pipes even through a torture mask.


You have no proof of that. How does Force Knowledge and Force Potential differ from one another?


Except we know nothing of Kenobi's Force powers, as you stated yourself, so for all we know they could be close to Jinn's, however, we do know for a fact that Jinn's are exceptionally high. Why should we lower Jinn's just because a character of unknown strength seems close to him? Then we should put the unknown character to Jinn;s level, that makes a lot more sense and you know it. Jinn has learned how to become one with the Force, this is impressive, and he'd be on the Council if he wasn't so much of a maverick. Tell me what Dooku did that was so impressive.



ESB Luke is still a padawan and though he only had about a week of formal training he used his saber soom between ANH and ESB and also progressed very quickly. Name other padawans, then, who were above TPM Kenobi. I only know of Anakin, Bane, Kun, Ulic and perhaps Nomi? And those Jedi/Sith were legends.


True, but he was close to becoming a knight either way, so he should be pretty much on the level of knight as far as his abilities go anyways.

When did he have a lot more trouble with Qui-Gon? Not in the one on one duel. I think Mace was a master at like 19, but I'm not sure. Kenobi when using the Dark Side could likely match Mace in saber combat for a short while.

Then it doesn't count. We see the entire duel in the movie without cuts and that never happens. And yes, he held them off for like a minute, then got tired and Anakin owned him.




Lol, seconds? No, no, no, Qui-Gon could hold off Anakin for around 20-30 seconds. Same with a fight between the Kenobi's. And this duo beat Dooku, too.


Yes, and had it not been for Sidious's sickly strong saber skills Saesee Tiin would still be alive. Dooku lost, there's no if's about it.


Except Maul always fights with rage, always. That is his normal fighting skills. That's what Sith do, fight with their rage, that was the point of Sidious fighting him, to get him to fight with his rage all the time.


Again, it took him some time to take out Bulq, and nom he won't have one of them taken out, maybe temporarily, but not for good.


But those Jedi were weak, right? He could have wtf pwnd them with the Force at any point, right? So it shouldn't have worn him out at all...


Unless the separate from each other. AOTC Kenobi was smart enough to try and get him and Anakin to take him on at different angles so he couldn't them at once ("You go in slowly on the left...". Qui-Gon will have a much better strategy against his old master than AOTC Kenobi would.


Qui-Gon temporairly blocks Dooku's Force attacks while Kenobi runs to Dooku in about 3 seconds. He then engages him in saber combat, forcing Dooku to stop using the Force. Then, in the next 3 seconds, Qui-Gon rushes to Dooku. Now it's 2 on 1 saber combat. Unless you don't believe that Kenobi can last 3 seconds along against Dooku in saber combat?

Even if Padawan Kenobi does engage Dooku in a saber duel, that hardly stops the Count from using his force arsenal. In RotS he managed to throw Obi-Wan across the room with the force while fighting Anakin (Anakin being many times stronger than TPM Kenobi btw). It doesnt hurt that he duels with one hand, leaving the other open for the force, either.

Just thought it needed to be said, seeing that seems to be a major point you are basing your argument on.

Originally posted by Rampant ox
Even if Padawan Kenobi does engage Dooku in a saber duel, that hardly stops the Count from using his force arsenal. In RotS he managed to throw Obi-Wan across the room with the force while fighting Anakin (Anakin being many times stronger than TPM Kenobi btw). It doesnt hurt that he duels with one hand, leaving the other open for the force, either.
In ROTS he managed to kick Anakin aside and then took Kenobi out with the Force. Even if he manages to kick Qui-Gon aside in this case, Kenobi in TPM uses Ataru, which relies on speed. Kenobi's fast strikes won't leave Dooku an opportunity to use the Force, at least until Kenobi starts to get tired.

Originally posted by darthsith19
In ROTS he managed to kick Anakin aside and then took Kenobi out with the Force. Even if he manages to kick Qui-Gon aside in this case, Kenobi in TPM uses Ataru, which relies on speed. Kenobi's fast strikes won't leave Dooku an opportunity to use the Force, at least until Kenobi starts to get tired.

Dooku can easily fend off TPM Kenobi with one hand, giving him plenty of opportunity to use the force with the other. I think you are grossly underestimating Dooku here.

Originally posted by Rampant ox
Dooku can easily fend off TPM Kenobi with one hand, giving him plenty of opportunity to use the force with the other. I think you are grossly underestimating Dooku here.
Yes, he can fend him off using one hand, seeing as Makashi is a one handed style. Whether he'll be able to fend him off using one hand and use the Force with the other at the same time is a totally different thing all together, cause you need to concentrate to use the Force and could he concentrate on using the Force and fending off Kenobi's attacks at the same time?

Yes

Yes

countless droids?? we are talking about the ROTS fight where he got thrown, which you said happened b/c he was attacking him and not using his mastered saber form.


You keep saying that, you are overestimating saber forms, it would not matter what saber form he used, and i didn't say Anakin gave Dooku trouble, the author of the novel did.

Originally posted by darthsith19

"DARTH MAUL seems to have the upper hand as OBI-WAN grows weary." - TPM script

And, while Kenobi was exhausted, he left an opening over for Maul to use the Force. Kenobi was tired and wasn't expecting a Force attack. Not being able to parry the push in this instance hardly downgrades him.


You know, that's almost good proof, but I was read Dark Rendezvous. Asajj wasn't trying to block Dooku's attack so your point is moot.


Kenobi has shown us skills not terribly far from Qui-Gon. Qui-Gon was the best lightsaber wielder his lightsaber instructor has seen in 400 years. he invented the Force Ghost move and rivaled Mace Windu. How are either of these guys only shown us basics? Dooku in no way made Yoda strain and yes, he went toe-to-toe with him and was forced to flee after a minute.


Then they will go at it in a Force duel and meanwhile Kenobi can get to Dooku in mere seconds, that's quicker than Jinn will be taken out in. You are seriously underestimating Qui-Gon here, and Kenobi (to a lesser extent). Jinn can block lightning with his saber. Kenobi can get to Dooku far quicker than Qui-Gon can be killed with Force Choke. He won't be able to handle an incoming Kenobi and a Qui-Gon at the same time. If he switches his attention to an incoming Kenobi, he could take him out temporarily with lightning if Kenobi doesn't know to block it with his saber, but while he's doing that (or trying to do it) Jinn can Force Push him and then leap at him with a blade. Dooku would likely get up in time but then it'd be a saber duel, not a Force duel. If Kenobi blocked the lightning then it's 2 on 1 and is close with Dooku winning. If Kenobi has been taken out and Dooku goes all out on Jinn then he'll *might* be able to take him out before Kenobi gets back up, but I doubt it, and once Kenobi gets back up it will be, once again, 2 on 1, saber duel.



Bondara and Maul weren't shown as not having Force Mastery, either. It's likely impossible to be the order's finest swordsman and not have at least decent Force Skills. Kenobi not being trained is bullshit, the movies should contradict this because they show he is very pwoerful, but maybe it was because he was very rash and had nothing to do with his potential anyways.

He parried Anakin's Force Push, and Anakin collapsed a football stadium sized room just by yelling. He Force Pushed Grievous a huge distance, and in Light and Dark he uses the Force to break water pipes even through a torture mask.


You have no proof of that. How does Force Knowledge and Force Potential differ from one another?


Except we know nothing of Kenobi's Force powers, as you stated yourself, so for all we know they could be close to Jinn's, however, we do know for a fact that Jinn's are exceptionally high. Why should we lower Jinn's just because a character of unknown strength seems close to him? Then we should put the unknown character to Jinn;s level, that makes a lot more sense and you know it. Jinn has learned how to become one with the Force, this is impressive, and he'd be on the Council if he wasn't so much of a maverick. Tell me what Dooku did that was so impressive.



ESB Luke is still a padawan and though he only had about a week of formal training he used his saber soom between ANH and ESB and also progressed very quickly. Name other padawans, then, who were above TPM Kenobi. I only know of Anakin, Bane, Kun, Ulic and perhaps Nomi? And those Jedi/Sith were legends.


True, but he was close to becoming a knight either way, so he should be pretty much on the level of knight as far as his abilities go anyways.


So, Maul should be the one tired as well, he fought two people, killed one, and even lost his saber. Note that this is Obi in his rage, he is alot better than normal TPM Obi-Wan.


Yet being able to ragdoll someone by lifting a finger is incredibly strong. Obi hasn't shown anything like it with all his strength.


Yeah, Qui-Gon was good with a saber, yet he got owned by Darth Maul, Dooku's inferior, plus the fact that Dooku can basically own someone who uses Ataru unless that person is Yoda. (Because he has extreme physical skills and force powers, as well as an unusual version of Ataru)
And Force Ghost does not work in combat, and you're gonna have to prove how you need to be extremley potential to use it, seeing how the only reason he did it was because he had other ways to see the force that no jedi before him used, thus no jedi before him could ever find out that way.
And you fail to prove how Obi-Wan by TPM could do anything like that, only because he SEEMS to be pretty equal to Qui-Gon in swordsmanship skills. Remember, you can't judge the actors, or Maul would own Sidious and Mace at once.

Yes, Dooku DID make Yoda strain a little in the first lightning attempt. Read the novel.


You seem to think that Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon will have this perfectly planned, like they know exactly who their up against and gonna time this perfectly. For them to have such tactics would require them to have prep time, seeing how not once have they shown such tactics. However, using the force as Dooku is, doesn't.
All Dooku would really need is keep them both at bay. Listen, what is Obi gonna do against Dooku's push? He uses one hand on him, one on Qui-Gon. One hand with a freakin choke was more than enough to take out ROTS OBI-WAN, TPM Obi will not stand a chance.


First of all, that's exactly what I said, "decent force skills".
Second, neither Qui-Gon nor Obi-Wan was ever the most powerful saber wielders, they were just some of the top dogs.
Third, it does NOT contradict it. Obi-Wan is hard working, smart and has been taught well, he should be making it fine. I see nothing to put his force abilities very high above all average jedi, above, but not super above.

Pushing Grievous? Wow, anyone could do that. Maybe not to the extent that Kenobi did it, but watch the scene, we haven't seen a single jedi trying to use THAT much power in a push. He was really pushing himself to the edge. And don't try to use "Grievous can usually dodge push", there is nothing magical or homing to his push abilities, Grievous was just arrogant, slow, and got hit.

A water pipe? Holy shit, not. Jedi don't need to see to do anything, so the mask is irrelevant. And a water pipe, nothing incredible about that, hardly even good.

Stalemating a furious Anakin who does not have control over his emotions at all, and is extremely unstabel. Yeah.
Note the fact that Anakin during those moments where also in a rage, and was not activating any force powers, it was just his potential screaming, sort of. Anakin has never shown to break corridor halls ever again.

No, prove how Jinn is so good with the force. He has shown us NOTHING combat related except pushing droids, he has only showed us that he knows alot about it, and thanks to seeing only the living force and his unusual ways of it, he could discover the force ghost technique, it wasn't some freaking super potential traits.
I think we saw from Maul vs Obi and Qui-Gon, that they were pretty much useless when trying to take down other force users with force powers, or they would've tag teamed Maul and taken him down. We know that Dooku is far, far, far from useless.


The speed of how quickly you progress isn't all that matters. Obi, since he was damn dedicated when almost not getting to be a jedi (should tell enough), worked hard to achieve what he did. Anakin, who has the highest potential ever, still didn't achieve his skills as fast as Kun, Bane, Luke or any of those guys, yet he could be alot better.
Obi only proves that he is dedicated, not that he has super potential.


What Dooku have done that is impressive?
Choked ROTS Kenobi with one hand, kicking ROTS Anakin away, then knocking out Kenobi and crashing a balcony on him.
Tossing alot of things, including generators that are built in the wall and the roof, against Yoda.
Tripping a generator that Obi-Wan and Anakin couldn't even begin to stop with the force, and Yoda had to do it.
Taking out Anakin with lighting.
Taking out Sora with lightning.
Taking out Assaj with lightning.
Ragdolling Quinlan Vos.
Being commented by Yoda to be "the most taught in the force, and the greatest student".
Noted in Dark Rendevouz to have only "possible Mace Windu as his equal". (Remember, this is not TPM Windu that Qui-Gon "rivaled" (we do not know, since it is stated by Obi-Wan by the way, he is biased).


How can padawan Obi-Wan, who has shown us nothing in the force, being stated as the lesser of Qui-Gon Jinn who has not either shown us anything combat related in the force, hope to defend himself in the force from the 3rd best force user in the movies, when ROTS Kenobi failed to do so, and ROTS Anakin (Qui-Gon's superior BY FAR) failed to attack him during that time, and that was in the middle of their duel.


People thought that Mace Windu would be able to take out 10 jedi at once, yet Dooku fails to take out one above average master and one above average padawan? Lol?

Dooku for sure. I think qui-gon rocks and he is one of my favourites but the true is that dooku is just better.

That quote of mine proves that Kenobi will be able to stop Dooku from using the Force, it does NOT, anywhere in it, say that Kenobi would give Dooku trouble. And I didn't state that Kenobi was tired in ROTS, George Lucas did.


Kenobi was more tired than Maul was, as shown in the script. Maul just has more endurance, it seems, plus he was feeding off the dark side for power, so was Kenobi but seeing as it was his first time using the dark side he couldn't use it anywhere near the level that Maul could.

Again, I've read the book where that happens and Asajj wasn't trying to block the attack at all.

He didn't get pwnd by Maul, for a while he was even driving Maul back. I still am waiting for the quote that Dooku can own someone who uses ataru.

Prove that the only reason he did it was because he viewed the Force differently. And he already did that which means he has to be strong in the Force, why couldn't he do something else strong then?

No, he wouldn't - just because Maul is faster doesn't mean that he'd own Sidious or Mace (plus Sidious moved his saber just as quickly or even more quickly in the Great Rotunda).

I'm not going to read the novel to see one thing. You brought it up - post a quote.


They will know exactly who their up against, as Dooku was Qui-Gon's master.


They didn't show tactics against Maul because they had no idea what they were up against and likely had never fought against a double bladed lightsaber before. Kenobi didn't have prep time with Dooku in AOTC but he came up with a plan, only Anakin didn't follow along with it. Qui-Gon will be a lot better at making up a plan than Kenobi was and TPM Kenobi will listen to Jinn and not be as stupid as Anakin was.


Prove that he can send out two separate Force Pushes at the same time.


I never said they were the most powerful, but now you're admitting that they were some of the top dogs?




If his potential was so low that he was hardly trained, how could he ever become the 4th most powerful Jedi in the order? Yes, the movie does contradict it.


Wrong. Grievous has magnetic feet - wasn't he standing on a metal platform? The blood of Syfo-Dyas in him also makes him immune to weak Force Attacks, and even with both of these things Kenobi was still able to Force Push him back many feet. That is very impressive.


The mask is NOT irrelevant. It is a torture mask. He had been wearying it for 20 days. The torture mask was actually imbued with dark side energy preventing Jedi from calling upon the Force by stopping them from concentrating. Yet Kenobi was still able to use the Force. This is impressive.


This is your rebuttal? It doesn't matter if he has no control over his emotions, he can still fight like a demon.


Oh, but he had no control over his emotions when he collapsed the hall, either! So he should be able to do more in his normal state!


Oh wow, choked someone who was tired, ROTJ Luke could use choke, it isn't really an advanced power, basically any dark Jedi can use it. Kicking Anakin away isn't a Force Power, seeing as it wasn't a Force Kick. Oh wow, telekinesis, he used telekinesis to drop a balcony, how impressive, nobody else could do that.


Your right, Jinn couldn't rip a little metal thing off of a wall, Dooku must be so uber!


Anakin was unconscious and Kenobi was injured to the point where he struggled to move a saber with the Force, so your point is moot. And Dooku merely crushed the base and let gravity do the rest.


Jinn could block lightning with his saber. Vos was able to use lightning without ever being taught how to. Lightning really isn't that impressive.

When was this, and was it with the Force or a saber?

Meaning he was the greatest as a student, this is impressive, though it doesn't mean he's uber as an adult.

Obsession shows Mace to be above Dooku. What's your point, anyways? Mace wouldn't pwn Qui-Gon and Kenobi, either, he'd win comfortably, Dooku would win with just a little trouble.


Kenobi was tired in ROTS and Anakin never tried to use the Force. TPM Kenobi couldn't block it but he could engage Dooku in saber combat while Jinn temporarily blocks it.


When was this?


You mean a strong master, one of the most powerful masters in the order. And, as I've stated numerous times, he will be able to take them out, it just won't be pwnage.

Kenobi and Anakin fought COUNTLESS droids before Dooku in ROTS??

, yeah DS you don't put much on the saber forms, you think Dooku would not be able to use the force on a padawan b/c of his saber form, you have to be kidding to think somebody that powerful would be thrown by any saber form.

So go in on the left is a good plan?? It would not have mattered what they did in AOTC, Dooku was too good for them, even with Anakin being much stronger than TPM Kenobi, in ROTS he was a match for both of them, it took Anakin w/ the darkside to overpower him.



This is true in ROTS he was number 4, which is why when you say in 10 years he did not progress much makes no sense at all.

, Wow, only you could downplay that, b/c you so underestimate Dooku.

NO, Dooku gets out of there, but certainly does not show Mace to be above Dooku. Mace does not touch him, don't make stuff up DS, if Mace had hit him, used the force on him you might be right.

And how would Mace win with ease while Dooku would have trouble?? B/c of vaapad?? Its certainly not b/c Mace is stronger than Dooku with the force, b/c that is not true from the facts, and Dooku would win b/c he could get rid of padawan Kenobi w/ little effort b/c of his very strong force powers, no matter what saber form he is using.

Originally posted by darthsith19
That quote of mine proves that Kenobi will be able to stop Dooku from using the Force, it does NOT, anywhere in it, say that Kenobi would give Dooku trouble. And I didn't state that Kenobi was tired in ROTS, George Lucas did.


Kenobi was more tired than Maul was, as shown in the script. Maul just has more endurance, it seems, plus he was feeding off the dark side for power, so was Kenobi but seeing as it was his first time using the dark side he couldn't use it anywhere near the level that Maul could.

Again, I've read the book where that happens and Asajj wasn't trying to block the attack at all.

He didn't get pwnd by Maul, for a while he was even driving Maul back. I still am waiting for the quote that Dooku can own someone who uses ataru.

Prove that the only reason he did it was because he viewed the Force differently. And he already did that which means he has to be strong in the Force, why couldn't he do something else strong then?

No, he wouldn't - just because Maul is faster doesn't mean that he'd own Sidious or Mace (plus Sidious moved his saber just as quickly or even more quickly in the Great Rotunda).

I'm not going to read the novel to see one thing. You brought it up - post a quote.


They will know exactly who their up against, as Dooku was Qui-Gon's master.


They didn't show tactics against Maul because they had no idea what they were up against and likely had never fought against a double bladed lightsaber before. Kenobi didn't have prep time with Dooku in AOTC but he came up with a plan, only Anakin didn't follow along with it. Qui-Gon will be a lot better at making up a plan than Kenobi was and TPM Kenobi will listen to Jinn and not be as stupid as Anakin was.


Prove that he can send out two separate Force Pushes at the same time.


I never said they were the most powerful, but now you're admitting that they were some of the top dogs?




If his potential was so low that he was hardly trained, how could he ever become the 4th most powerful Jedi in the order? Yes, the movie does contradict it.


Wrong. Grievous has magnetic feet - wasn't he standing on a metal platform? The blood of Syfo-Dyas in him also makes him immune to weak Force Attacks, and even with both of these things Kenobi was still able to Force Push him back many feet. That is very impressive.


The mask is NOT irrelevant. It is a torture mask. He had been wearying it for 20 days. The torture mask was actually imbued with dark side energy preventing Jedi from calling upon the Force by stopping them from concentrating. Yet Kenobi was still able to use the Force. This is impressive.


This is your rebuttal? It doesn't matter if he has no control over his emotions, he can still fight like a demon.


Oh, but he had no control over his emotions when he collapsed the hall, either! So he should be able to do more in his normal state!


Oh wow, choked someone who was tired, ROTJ Luke could use choke, it isn't really an advanced power, basically any dark Jedi can use it. Kicking Anakin away isn't a Force Power, seeing as it wasn't a Force Kick. Oh wow, telekinesis, he used telekinesis to drop a balcony, how impressive, nobody else could do that.


Your right, Jinn couldn't rip a little metal thing off of a wall, Dooku must be so uber!


Anakin was unconscious and Kenobi was injured to the point where he struggled to move a saber with the Force, so your point is moot. And Dooku merely crushed the base and let gravity do the rest.


Jinn could block lightning with his saber. Vos was able to use lightning without ever being taught how to. Lightning really isn't that impressive.

When was this, and was it with the Force or a saber?

Meaning he was the greatest as a student, this is impressive, though it doesn't mean he's uber as an adult.

Obsession shows Mace to be above Dooku. What's your point, anyways? Mace wouldn't pwn Qui-Gon and Kenobi, either, he'd win comfortably, Dooku would win with just a little trouble.


Kenobi was tired in ROTS and Anakin never tried to use the Force. TPM Kenobi couldn't block it but he could engage Dooku in saber combat while Jinn temporarily blocks it.


When was this?


You mean a strong master, one of the most powerful masters in the order. And, as I've stated numerous times, he will be able to take them out, it just won't be pwnage.


Yes, yet Maul is about 10 times weaker than Dooku when it comes to force. If Obi-Wan fails to parry one from him, I doubt he'd ever, in any state, parry one from Dooku.


And we have yet to see Obi-Wan lifting another force user at all.


I have explained this over and freaking over, he used the dark side which gave him a super boost in power. That boost of power was for example able to get Maul from getting owned by Sidious (not being able to move a single muscle), to almost beating him.


Yeah, it's kinda easy to understand, since he thinks of the living force, the force of the moment. It kinda makes sense if you think about it.
And wth would you say? That his "amazing potential" gave him some freakin super ability to become a force ghost? Isn't it obvious that it was all this shit about Qui-Gon viewing it entirely different has some kind of influense on how he is the only jedi ever able to do this, unlike anyone else. If it had anything to do with power as you say, he'd be the most powerful one, yet he's not even near that.
WTF? "And he already did that which means he has to be strong in the Force, why couldn't he do something else strong then", who said that because Qui-Gon view the force differently, he was strong in the force? No one, and that is ridicilous.



Yes it does, because he did not only show superior speed, but skill as well. Mace and Sidious sucked in the movies, yet we cannot base it on that. Ray Park >>>>>>>>>>> Sam L Jackson in swordfighting.


It states Yoda had to actually try pretty decently to parry it, then the other time he did it more easily. I don't have the book, can't post a quote, but the quote is here on KMC somewhere, not gonna find it for this debate.


No, they won't know "sith Dooku", only jedi Dooku. And they don't know his tactics.


Oh, I'm sure they went, "Hey, he got a double bladed saber, let's try to fight it", not.
Yeah, "you go slowly to the left, and...", Dooku was toying them, he'd pwn their ass as they start their conversations. I'm saying what Dooku would be able to do would he want to pwn their asses. People have already agreed on this forum that Dooku could take out ROTS Kenobi in seconds, so why would TPM be any different?

I'll end this "TPM Obi-Wan can parry his push" bull once and for all. From the Ep 3 novel.
"The slightest whipcrack of Dooku's power sent Obi-Wan crashing to the floor". It's not right, but it's something of those lines. See, ROTS Obi-Wan, TPM Obi's superior by miles and miles, couldn't parry "the slightest" form of Dooku's push, now you tell me TPM can parry a one handed push from Dooku?
That says it all.


WTF? Of course he can push two people at once. Watch TPM, Qui-Gon pushes four battle droids at once. There, proven.


I don't see the relevance of that, seeing how I never said pushing Grievous was weak, but rather that basically any jedi left with the oppertunity could do it, not to the full extent of Obi's power, but could do it to a good degree. Obi also spent about 2 seconds loading for this power. And I still don't see how this is relevant, when he couldn't parry the slightest push from Dooku by ROTS, where his force mastery as well as saber mastery has grown from "a clowns" to a master, as he notes during the fight in ROTS, where they first act as they did in AOTC, then change to their ROTS state. Even by AOTC, Obi is stronger than by TPM.



The mask is irrelevant, because it still didn't bring him to the degree that he couldn't use the force at all. A ****ing water pipe...


It does matter if he was in control of his emotions. Go argue that with Advent would ya. And Anakin was never anything special at that time when it came to force powers, compared to other force top dogs.


You are arguing out of your ass. He had no control what so ever over that, he didn't think "I'm gonna do force lightning", he just cried out, and the force acted on instinct. In their duel, he tried to do an unfocused force push.


Choked someone who was tired? WTF? Obi-Wan was just as tired as Count Dooku, and it's a force user, no freaking pig.
Are you insane? When did I say "Dooku had powers that no one had", I gave ****ing impressive usage of those powers, unlike your "Obi crashed water pipes and pushed droids".
And kicking Anakin, a by far better fighter than Qui-Gon, and taking out Obi with the force at once, proves that this situation won't be much harder.


When Jinn to it at all, do it as fast, to such degree, and with such power as Dooku has, I'll give him credit. Until then, STFU!


Yeah, cause crushing about 2m of straight metal while fighting Yoda, and already fought two other jedi, in about 2 seconds, isn't impressive. I guess it's no "crushing water pipes", but impressive.




All this other is irrelevant, ROTS Obi couldn't parry the slightest of Dooku's powers. It's already established that ROTS Kenobi is a little better than Maul, which means he'd give Qui-Gon hell and beat him. Qui-Gon Jinn and TPM Obi will NOT be able to handle the force powers of Dooku. The END!

This debate feels freakin irrelevant, seeing how we both know Dooku will win, it's just "how easy".
But do answere that G-canon quote from the novelisation saying that Obi couldn't block the slightest whipcrack of Dooku's powers, and how he will be able to do it as a padawan while discussing tactics with Qui-Gon Jinn.

The quote you kamikz referred to is:
"He gathered the Force once more in a single indrawn breath that summoned power from throughout the universe; the slightest whipcrack of that power, negligent as a flick of his wrist, sent Kenobi flying backward to crash hard against the wall."

This quite clearly shows that a flick of Dooku's wrist absolutely destroyed RotS Kenobi. I dont see how TPM Kenobi, a far weaker incarnation, stands a hope in Hell against Dooku, especially if the Count decides to pul out all the stops.

Exactly, thanks.

Originally posted by darthsith19
Yes, he can fend him off using one hand, seeing as Makashi is a one handed style. Whether he'll be able to fend him off using one hand and use the Force with the other at the same time is a totally different thing all together, cause you need to concentrate to use the Force and could he concentrate on using the Force and fending off Kenobi's attacks at the same time?

Dooku managed to fight off both Sora Bulq and Tholme in one of the Clone Wars comic books. He also uses the Force with his lightsaber in numerous occasions against various powerful opponents. I don't see how he would have a problem here beating TPM Obi-Wan.