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I'll make this short as I don't really have time for interwebz anymore.

So, I took a look at some of the threads in the vs. section and in the comic book section (Mainly the agility thread, it's great btw)

So, I've often seen that people assume that skill = lots of different martial art styles, but IMO it's more like how effective fighter you are. Let's take some examples shall we.

Luke Cage & Captain America. Captain America doesn't know THAT many martial arts (*Takes a look at Batman*), but he's very effective fighters, I'd say one of the top 3 (in Marvel) He uses lots of different moves, such as pressurepoint attacks, grabs etc etc

He fights people lot stronger than he is, and makes up for their strenght/durability with his skill on weak spots and similiar.

Now, Luke Cage is a street fighter, I don't think he really has any belts or anything. He has picked up some training from his buddy IronFist, but he's still a street fighter. Now, he's probably one of the top strong guys when it comes to fighting. He has pretty much one efficient style which he utilizes.

Luke Cage has better stats than Captain America (Some might disagree though) Who would win in a fight? (Note, this is not a vs. topic)

Another example, Blade and Wolverine. We'll remove their powersets (both are peak human at this instance) And we'll give them swords. Blade's skill level is said to be lower, but would it matter in a sword confortation? Both of the characters rely on different things, Wolverine relies on his claws and ocasionally on his martial art skills. Blade uses mainly sword, throwables and at times his martial art skills.

I'm asking you guys. How do you define skill in the comic books? and how much does it matter in a fight? (I've had this image in my head that the more skilled fighter of the 2 fighters is able to position the other fighter in a bad position and we'll be able to counter attack easily. Now I've realised that that image is false, unless the losing character is really shitty compared to the other character, isn't fast enough, or is too confident or something)

How much does this skill matter in fights like "Ares vs Wolverine" or "Captain America vs Thing"

Wolvie, and Cappy are exeptional good fighters, but Ares & Thing aren't THAT bad in comparision (At least when comparing to some of the bad guys these good fighters fight)

Maybe I'm thinking battle smarts (Ie, Wolverine has claws, I'll have to be careful when attacking him etc)

So.. Umm, discuss "1337 skillz"

Think Spidey vs Scorpion.

Scorpion had NO hand to hand skills, which made up for the power gap between them. When facing an opponent who's 70 classes above you, martial arts won't matter at all.

Characters like Mantis and Gamora are exceptions, because their skill allows them to injure cosmic beings (I think that's bull*hit). This isn't the case with Wolverine and Cap, their martial arts skills won't let them injure Hulk, Thing, Colossus and so on with just skill.

So no, I don't think skill should make such a big difference when The Thing is facing off against Cap.

Skill allows Cap to hold his own against guys like the Hulk, Thing, Namor etc etc.

But even he admits hes not beating the Hulk, thats the difference maker imo, a normal guy with peak human abilities and no skill would go down in a panel against Grimm or Banner.

Skill is also inconsitently written in the case of say Wolverine, for instance in the Ares vs Wolverine thread it was pointed out that Ares didn't show much skill when he lept at Ultron.

However, I've been reading the fist ten issues of Astonishing X men and in almost every fight, Logan's first move is to leap at his opponent claws out, more often then not resulting in him getting b!tch slapped.

So skill in comics is swings and roundabouts with certain characters who are meant to be very skilled, twice now BP has made karnak look like a bumbling fool despite his high level of hand to hand skill.

Originally posted by Hercules


However, I've been reading the fist ten issues of Astonishing X men and in almost every fight, Logan's first move is to leap at his opponent claws out, more often then not resulting in him getting b!tch slapped.


but despite this he gets to be one of the world best MAs.

Originally posted by Alfheim
but despite this he gets to be one of the world best MAs.

That's cause Whedon writes him like a moron.

Originally posted by marvelprince
That's cause Whedon writes him like a moron.

Well Wolverine has been fighting that way for ages...anyway I better quit the Wolverine hate.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Well Wolverine has been fighting that way for ages...anyway I better quit the Wolverine hate.

Think you should.

Anyway, I fail to see how rushing into attacks equates to less skill. Of course it doesn't sound like a solid strategy but in the case of characters like Ares and Wolverine where they can get up from practically anything why would they have to worry about being careful? Also its in their personality to be hotheaded so its more of a character trait than lack of skill.

Originally posted by marvelprince
Think you should.

Anyway, I fail to see how rushing into attacks equates to less skill. Of course it doesn't sound like a solid strategy but in the case of characters like Ares and Wolverine where they can get up from practically anything why would they have to worry about being careful? Also its in their personality to be hotheaded so its more of a character trait than lack of skill.

Yeah I know....Im just still pissed about Wolverine slicing...oh nevermind

Originally posted by marvelprince
its in their personality to be hotheaded so its more of a character trait than lack of skill.

Letting your feelings/anger decide your method of attack is the exact opposite of martial arts skill.

Originally posted by Scoobless
Letting your feelings/anger decide your method of attack is the exact opposite of martial arts skill.



In all fairness it could be argued that they do have it, they just dont need to use it all the time because of their durability.

It could be also argued that since people like Wolverine tend not to use skill as much as other MAs then this would lessen their skill because they use it less frequently.

Originally posted by marvelprince
Think you should.

Anyway, I fail to see how rushing into attacks equates to less skill. Of course it doesn't sound like a solid strategy but in the case of characters like Ares and Wolverine where they can get up from practically anything why would they have to worry about being careful? Also its in their personality to be hotheaded so its more of a character trait than lack of skill.

It shows the character not only to be hot headed and rash but also not to be thinking tactically, a controled and skilled fighter would never leave themselves open like that.

I was also using it as an example of inconsistent writing, it only really came to mind when SC posted the scan of Ares jumping at Ultron to illustrate a lack of skill on Ares's part.

But it was a hotheaded act, spurred on by Ultron, which I addressed in that thread.

I agree Logan is hot headed and rash at times, that is part of his personality but when its his first tactic regardless of his level of anger, he goes from being hotheaded to just plain sloppy.

But as you have already addressed in the case of Astonishing,Wheldon is at fault.

And my post was not to insult Logan's skill but to illustrate how bad writing can effect how we see a characters skill level (which is seems we are in agreement on! )

Originally posted by Hercules

But as you have already addressed in the case of Astonishing,Wheldon is at fault.

Not really ... Wolverine has been jumping head first into fights for decades and a lot of the time he gets hurt while doing so.

Originally posted by Scoobless
Not really ... Wolverine has been jumping head first into fights for decades and a lot of the time he gets hurt while doing so.

True but he does it every issue in Astonishing and so does Beast and both get hurt doing so.

Wolverine you can excuse as rash but Hank should really know better.

Logan would stomp the shit oput of blade in swordmen skills.

Logan experience with sword fighting>>>>>>>>Blade

Training with swords>>>>>>>>>>>Blade

Not really a contest at all really.

Logan was trained by the best sword fighter to ever live. Can blade say the same thing?

Originally posted by marvelprince
That's cause Whedon writes him like a moron.
yup.

A lot of comic book writers do kind of mess up on skills. They often says that number of combat forms equals ability which is totally false. In reality Combat Skill is based on your ability to optimize your strengths while minimizing your weaknesses compared to the other combatant.


That why people like Wolverine are really not that good. Wolverine isn't smart enough or a good enough tactician to be one of the best MA guys in comics. Seriously in straight up hand to hand skills Cap, Slade, Deadpool, Dare Devil should all pawn Wolverine in H2H.

But yeah people like Karate Kid Gamora and Mantis are totally unrealistic in the feats they have.

Originally posted by Newjak
That why people like Wolverine are really not that good. Wolverine isn't smart enough or a good enough tactician to be one of the best MA guys in comics. Seriously in straight up hand to hand skills Cap, Slade, Deadpool, Dare Devil should all pawn Wolverine in H2H.

But yeah people like Karate Kid Gamora and Mantis are totally unrealistic in the feats they have.
Logan has above average intellect and his mind see things at a far faster rate then humanly possiable.

He also is an amazing tactian.


His experience is beyond any one you named.

His skills are clearly top tier.

sLol you think slade is a top tier in term of skill.............lol

By the way Logan has beaten DD in h2h combat in 5 pannels.

He also beaten capt twice...........

So please I love to hear why any of those guys should beat wolverine in h2h let a lone pwn him.

Originally posted by Newjak
A lot of comic book writers do kind of mess up on skills. They often says that number of combat forms equals ability which is totally false. In reality Combat Skill is based on your ability to optimize your strengths while minimizing your weaknesses compared to the other combatant.


Yup thats true. Writers don't seem to realise that once you get past half a dozen different styles, everything else is pretty redundant.

Originally posted by Newjak
That why people like Wolverine are really not that good. Wolverine isn't smart enough or a good enough tactician to be one of the best MA guys in comics. Seriously in straight up hand to hand skills Cap, Slade, Deadpool, Dare Devil should all pawn Wolverine in H2H.


Not only does this make little sense but it also contradicts what you just said. Mainly the "skill is based on your ability to optimize your strengths while minimizing your weaknesses compared to the other combatant." part.

While other fighters are using self defence oriented styles Wolverine's healing factor affords him the the luxury of an almost purely offencive fighting style. He is a death dealer, there are no sport elements to his fighting style, nothing flashy, just practical and the efficient honed to near perfection. How is that not optimizing your strengths while minimizing your weaknesses compared to the other combatant. He isn't fighting to fight, he is fighting to win... why would he needlessly prolong a fight by hopping around like jackass trying to emulate Bruce Lee?

I don't think the majority of people have any idea of what fighting skill actually is. Speed, accuracy, coordination and most of all efficiency, are what make someone a skilled fighter... Wolverine has that in spades. Martial artist speed years of their lives training their bodies to do what Wolverine does natural, operate on instinct that has been honed to pinnacle of perfection

Originally posted by capt it up
Logan would stomp the shit oput of blade in swordmen skills.

Logan experience with sword fighting>>>>>>>>Blade

Training with swords>>>>>>>>>>>Blade

Not really a contest at all really.

Logan was trained by the best sword fighter to ever live. Can blade say the same thing?

I'll give experience to Logan, but Blade is also very old and he has been training with swords for a lifetime. (He's like 80 isn't he?)

Training with swords? How do you decide this? Has Blade lost to anyone in a sword fight? What makes you think Wolverine is >>>>>> to Blade? Other than your twisted opinion? In comic universe it doesn't matter who has trained you, or if he's a self proclaimed god of sword fighting. I assume you're talking about Ogun, Ogun doesn't have feats to back up his superiority as a swordsman. Not AFAIK.

And, yet again you complitely miss the point. (It's like you're only reading "Blade....Wolverine.... Skills.." I wasn't asking who's the better swordman, they are both obviously masters at the art, but how much difference would it make if both are masters. Wouldn't other factors start to play a different role eventually?

I couldn't care less who was the better swordsman, if they clashed their swords, I'd even point out Wolverine as the better of the 2, but that's not what I'm asking here.

I'm sorry, but your post is off topic and fanboyish.
-------------------------------------------------------

Back to the topic. Can someone be am effective fighter with just one style? And, let's take an example. We'll have Wolverine & Captain America. (They both are powerless, weaponless, physically equal in this match up) Who would do better in a h2h fight? Cap basicly uses a one style, while I'm not entirely sure on what kind of style(s) Wolverine uses.

It's really hard to say who would win if you base it only on skill, or is it?
How much do skills count in comics?

Originally posted by Jyppe

-------------------------------------------------------

Back to the topic. Can someone be am effective fighter with just one style? And, let's take an example. We'll have Wolverine & Captain America. (They both are powerless, weaponless, physically equal in this match up) Who would do better in a h2h fight? Cap basicly uses a one style, while I'm not entirely sure on what kind of style(s) Wolverine uses.

It's really hard to say who would win if you base it only on skill, or is it?
How much do skills count in comics?

Has logan gotten time to get use to the fact of not having a healing factor?

Actually capt uses around 3 styles not one.

Logan also uses his own style that uses different mvoes from a number of styles. He can switch it up a lot as well.

There pritty much equals in skill though I think Logans expereince advantage would allow him a slight egde though it really just a flipp of a coin.

Vandal Savage pwns Cap,Wolverine and Blade put together in experience...

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Yup thats true. Writers don't seem to realise that once you get past half a dozen different styles, everything else is pretty redundant.



Not only does this make little sense but it also contradicts what you just said. Mainly the "skill is based on your ability to optimize your strengths while minimizing your weaknesses compared to the other combatant." part.

While other fighters are using self defence oriented styles Wolverine's healing factor affords him the the luxury of an almost purely offencive fighting style. He is a death dealer, there are no sport elements to his fighting style, nothing flashy, just practical and the efficient honed to near perfection. How is that not optimizing your strengths while minimizing your weaknesses compared to the other combatant. He isn't fighting to fight, he is fighting to win... why would he needlessly prolong a fight by hopping around like jackass trying to emulate Bruce Lee?

I don't think the majority of people have any idea of what fighting skill actually is. Speed, accuracy, coordination and most of all efficiency, are what make someone a skilled fighter... Wolverine has that in spades. Martial artist speed years of their lives training their bodies to do what Wolverine does natural, operate on instinct that has been honed to pinnacle of perfection How did I contradict myself. Wolverine is far from the guy I've described and he isn't the best at what he does. Yes his healing factor does give him advantage but Wolverine really lacks the essentials. For he just plain isn't a good enough tactician to do it. Even when he has lost his HF or lost his Adamantium claws he still does the same thing lets rush head long into battle.

And most importantly compared to the people I mentioned yes Wolverine might as well be a terd in fighting ability. Let's face writers try to play off his great MA ability by saying he has learned every fighting style on Earth.

Originally posted by Jyppe
Captain America doesn't know THAT many martial arts (*Takes a look at Batman*), but he's very effective fighters, I'd say one of the top 3 (in Marvel) I'm sure people have already echoed my thoughts on the thread, so I'll just skip to this part.

Mainly to tell you that you're wrong.

Originally posted by Newjak
How did I contradict myself. Wolverine is far from the guy I've described and he isn't the best at what he does. Yes his healing factor does give him advantage but Wolverine really lacks the essentials. For he just plain isn't a good enough tactician to do it. Even when he has lost his HF or lost his Adamantium claws he still does the same thing lets rush head long into battle.

And most importantly compared to the people I mentioned yes Wolverine might as well be a terd in fighting ability. Let's face writers try to play off his great MA ability by saying he has learned every fighting style on Earth.
as always you are so ignorant and prove none of your claims

I mean Logan never beaten the like of capt........or DD....or shang-chi.....or a guy who mopped the floor with IF on pure skill or any thing.......


and you have the nerve to tell me slade is the superior fighter when it a known fact he relies on his powers to beat superior skilled people such as night wing and batman.

Originally posted by capt it up
as always you are so ignorant and prove none of your claims

I mean Logan never beaten the like of capt........or DD....or shang-chi.....or a guy who mopped the floor with IF on pure skill or any thing.......


and you have the nerve to tell me slade is the superior fighter when it a known fact he relies on his powers to beat superior skilled people such as night wing and batman. Logan has a huge advantage against all those guys with his Healing factor. Take that away and his battle abilities are effectively halved or even fourthed if you ask me.

As for the Salde the guy has an enhanced brain he should be able to out think anyone in a real life combat situation with ease. Hence he really should be one of the top MAs in both companies if you go by what is actual MA and not Comic MA

Originally posted by capt it up
as always you are so ignorant and prove none of your claims

I mean Logan never beaten the like of capt........or DD....or shang-chi.....or a guy who mopped the floor with IF on pure skill or any thing.......


and you have the nerve to tell me slade is the superior fighter when it a known fact he relies on his powers to beat superior skilled people such as night wing and batman.

A starving Wolverine has no business outsmarting one of the best tactians in the Mu. Wolverine has no business beating Shang Chi in 3 panels.

Wolverine is even too short to put DD in that submmisson hold for starters, what so Wolverine can grow now?

Originally posted by Newjak
Logan has a huge advantage against all those guys with his Healing factor. Take that away and his battle abilities are effectively halved or even fourthed if you ask me.

As for the Salde the guy has an enhanced brain he should be able to out think anyone in a real life combat situation with ease. Hence he really should be one of the top MAs in both companies if you go by what is actual MA and not Comic MA I was always thinking the same about his healing factor he wouldn't win battles if not for that.

Well, Wolverine might theoretically know lots and f*cking lots of martial arts, but he practices in them so rarely, that his skill should've been more than a bit rusty. It's only his passive knowledge- or should be that...I've learned German for 5 years but after that I had 6 years without language practice and German has become my passive knowledge. And that's 6 years...Wolvie doesn't have superhuman memory, and even if he remembers theory, multiple years without practice (fighting like a wild predator and just jumping on your opponents with claws out don't improve one's MA level) made that knowledge rusty to the point that the victory over Shang Chi isn't look too plausible.In fact Wolverine beating Shang Chi in 3 panels is a little nasty cousin of Lobo PIS...popularity contest.

Logan is not INVINCIBLE when it comes to martial arts. In fact, his healing factor (and the inhuman stamina it provides) is his only (and not sufficient from the logical point of view) saving grace against opponents like Shang Chi and Stick...

Wolverine's fans and writers who are too busy milking that stinky cash cow to think about "puny logic" tends either give to Wolvie PIS-filled victories or (in case of fans) overhyping Wolverine's rogue gallery.

Originally posted by Charlotte DeBel
Well, Wolverine might theoretically know lots and f*cking lots of martial arts, but he practices in them so rarely, that his skill should've been more than a bit rusty. It's only his passive knowledge- or should be that...I've learned German for 5 years but after that I had 6 years without language practice and German has become my passive knowledge. And that's 6 years...Wolvie doesn't have superhuman memory, and even if he remembers theory, multiple years without practice (fighting like a wild predator and just jumping on your opponents with claws out don't improve one's MA level) made that knowledge rusty to the point that the victory over Shang Chi isn't look too plausible.In fact Wolverine beating Shang Chi in 3 panels is a little nasty cousin of Lobo PIS...popularity contest.

Logan is not INVINCIBLE when it comes to martial arts. In fact, his healing factor (and the inhuman stamina it provides) is his only (and not sufficient from the logical point of view) saving grace against opponents like Shang Chi and Stick...

Wolverine's fans and writers who are too busy milking that stinky cash cow to think about "puny logic" tends either give to Wolvie PIS-filled victories or (in case of fans) overhyping Wolverine's rogue gallery.

You sumed it up beautfiully.

Yeah but as this thread has been stating, even though Wolverine doesn't use MA all the time so he should be rusty his overall fighting experience probably makes up for that in a huge way.

After all do you really need to be an MA to have a high fighting skill? Personally I think a high fighting skill is coming up with your own style which compliments your powers. Which again brings you back to Wolverine, the guy has a healing factor and unbreakable bones, he can jump straight into a fight, maybe the enemy will panic and leave themselves open, maybe the b*tch slap Logan away, but he will be back on his feet again in no time, and after this he has learned a little bit on how his enemy fights and what he can do to counter, if he decides he needs to fall back on MA to win he will even if he is a bit rusty, but even though he may be rusty he still knows loads and loads as he has proved (imagine what he would be like if he practices all the time) and while he is using MA he still has his actual powers to fall back on.

Then you can go to a character like Spider-man who has developed his own fighting style to best use his powers, keeping on the move and overwhelming the enemy with speedy punches while letting his spider sense guide him.

These are the sorts of things that make fighters like these good tactions because they come up with the most effective way they can work in combat. One of the best examples I can think of is in Civil War where Spidey fights Cap, Spider-man wanted to fight on instinct and keep his distance like normal, but Cap knew this so forced the battle to be up close and personal because he knows Parker doesn't excel in that. So really I don't think MA has an awful lot to do with combat skill unless that is what you fall back on to be your saving grace :/ which Wolverine obviously doesn't.

Originally posted by Sparkz
Yeah but as this thread has been stating, even though Wolverine doesn't use MA all the time so he should be rusty his overall fighting experience probably makes up for that in a huge way.

After all do you really need to be an MA to have a high fighting skill? Personally I think a high fighting skill is coming up with your own style which compliments your powers. Which again brings you back to Wolverine, the guy has a healing factor and unbreakable bones, he can jump straight into a fight, maybe the enemy will panic and leave themselves open, maybe the b*tch slap Logan away, but he will be back on his feet again in no time, and after this he has learned a little bit on how his enemy fights and what he can do to counter, if he decides he needs to fall back on MA to win he will even if he is a bit rusty, but even though he may be rusty he still knows loads and loads as he has proved (imagine what he would be like if he practices all the time) and while he is using MA he still has his actual powers to fall back on.

Then you can go to a character like Spider-man who has developed his own fighting style to best use his powers, keeping on the move and overwhelming the enemy with speedy punches while letting his spider sense guide him.

These are the sorts of things that make fighters like these good tactions because they come up with the most effective way they can work in combat. One of the best examples I can think of is in Civil War where Spidey fights Cap, Spider-man wanted to fight on instinct and keep his distance like normal, but Cap knew this so forced the battle to be up close and personal because he knows Parker doesn't excel in that. So really I don't think MA has an awful lot to do with combat skill unless that is what you fall back on to be your saving grace :/ which Wolverine obviously doesn't.

Yeah but I dont see how the hell that justifies him beating Shang in 3 panels, dodging Stick and beating Cap in tactics after starving and being awake for several days.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Yeah but I dont see how the hell that justifies him beating Shang in 3 panels, dodging Stick and beating Cap in tactics after starving and being awake for several days.

I'm not saying those things make sense I'm just saying that Logan makes up for the skill he doesn't always use in different ways.

Originally posted by Sparkz
I'm not saying those things make sense I'm just saying that Logan makes up for the skill he doesn't always use in different ways.

Yeah thats true. Wolverine makes me b*tchy, sorry.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Yeah thats true. Wolverine makes me b*tchy, sorry.

LoL he used to do that to me too, then I stopped coming on the forums for a while and just started enjoying reading Wolverine again and tried not to think about PISy moments if there was any. Its not the writers that have ruined Wolverine IMO its the fanboys that make you angry about him.

Skill is WAY overrated in comics.
I felt like throwing up when Cap was able to defeat Spidey... I mean, he is fightign a class 20 opponent. Just BLOCKING should kill Cap.

sock?

The efficiency is the major point in the fight. And the "billions of martial arts" knowledge is one of the most stupid inventions of comicbooks writers. A really good fighter employs his personal fighting style, combining moves from different styles in the most efficient way... That's true even if that top level fighter primarly known for using one fighting style (i.e. Shang Chi, master of kung fu).

Wolverine is berserker, so he can and would be beaten down by patient and calm fighter who will exploit that Wolvie's weak point with style (in Marvel I can think of Shang Chi).

Actually, some Wolverine fans make really funny claims like Wolverine beating all Mortal Combat cast singlehandely and easily...I've really seen something like that on that forum.

Class 20 is not class 100. And Spidey isn't that skilled for the gap not being able to be covered with skill.
1. Spidey is a widely known victim of CIS.
2. His "fighting style" is more of acrobatic performance...think of capoeira performance- more of dance that of really effective fighting style (though there are effective versions of capoeira). The thing that makes that "street dances" effective is Spidey's strength. Without class 20 strength the damage from Spidey's kicks would be pathetic.

Originally posted by Alfheim
sock?

Maybe... seeing as he spams up Game "Versus" Forum.

Well I could add some more points but I dont want to b*tch too much.

Originally posted by Charlotte DeBel
The efficiency is the major point in the fight. And the "billions of martial arts" knowledge is one of the most stupid inventions of comicbooks writers. A really good fighter employs his personal fighting style, combining moves from different styles in the most efficient way... That's true even if that top level fighter primarly known for using one fighting style (i.e. Shang Chi, master of kung fu).

Wolverine is berserker, so he can and would be beaten down by patient and calm fighter who will exploit that Wolvie's weak point with style (in Marvel I can think of Shang Chi).

Actually, some Wolverine fans make really funny claims like Wolverine beating all Mortal Combat cast singlehandely and easily...I've really seen something like that on that forum.

Thats true. A true fighter should maybe start out with another martial art, and from there, evolve his own.

Originally posted by Alfheim
A starving Wolverine has no business outsmarting one of the best tactians in the Mu. Wolverine has no business beating Shang Chi in 3 panels.

Wolverine is even too short to put DD in that submmisson hold for starters, what so Wolverine can grow now?
says the man who is known hater of wolverine.....honestly when wolverine is concern what you have to say means jack shit.

Wolverine practically toyed Shang Chi.
The handbook says more than Aflheims meaning.
When fighters like Bruce Lee could get so good in 20 years, imagine Wolverine practioning martial arts in hundreds. Thats experience.

Wolveirne is among the best martial artists in Marvel, only rivaled by Captain America.