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Hard to imagine what it really is, used to get this very strange feeling as a kid which is really hard to describe. The feeling of not being in the world but not even knowing you were ever in it to begin with. Its hard to imagine any sort of existence after death. That voice in my head, my voice not the crazy voices lol that is always talking and is infact talking this out in my head while I type it, strange. Could what ever this thing is still exist? Or does it need the brain and oxygen to continue to think and exist only inside my head? Does this voice die as it is just the mental version of me? Could it some how exist with out my body in some way we cant even understand? WHAT EXACTLY IS THIS VOICE THAT IS SPEAKING WHAT I AM TYPING RIGHT NOW? WHAT IS IT? You can even have conversations with it, argue with it but its me, im talking to my self but inside my head? WTF?

The mind is the brain personified by our voice and thoughts. Complex thoughts compared to animals, but thoughts none the less. Such thoughts are used in adapting and responding to our surroundings, and over time, as we interacted with so much, our simple minds turned complex, or as we define: sentient.

When the brain dies, our mind is dead. The chemicals stop flowing, the electric signals stop pulsing. The thing that allows our mind to function has ceased working, so our mind goes with it. We cease to exist as mental beings, with only a corpse to remind the living that we once inhabited Existence. Just like every ant, every rat, every deer, every dolphin, we die, and despite the vastness of our conscious being, we cease to exist since the mind--the soul, everything we are-- blinks from the Cosmos.

A bit of a tangent, but I've always have been wondering why death seems so...avoided in American culture. In other cultures, when death occurrs, they don't necessarily mourn death, they celebrate life. I wonder why it is so different here.

Either way, dead is quite an interesting thing. Just trying to grasp the fact that I won't exist after some point is odd. Uncomprehendable.

Originally posted by Magee
WHAT EXACTLY IS THIS VOICE THAT IS SPEAKING WHAT I AM TYPING RIGHT NOW? WHAT IS IT? You can even have conversations with it, argue with it but its me, im talking to my self but inside my head? WTF? A related question, perhaps you may find more interesting...
Some meditation techniques direct one to focus on, and stop, the inner dialogue. Typically, after a few seconds, one forgets and is back on mental autopilot before remembering to meditate again (sometimes several minutes later). Question: What is it that reminds one to meditate? (I'm not looking for a verbalized answer, per se; this is more a 'notice for yourself' kinda question.)

American culture is a rather young, and in many ways immature culture, which emotionally does not grasp the reality of death the way older, more seasoned cultures do (this is similar to most young people when it comes to grasping their own mortality, as compared to older folks). American values largely (but certainly not exclusively) celebrate youth, fame and wealth (think Paris Hilton as poster child), and frankly, it's difficult prancing around like a fizz-headed idiot, or letting people know how glorious you are, if you're dead.

Originally posted by Magee
Hard to imagine what it really is, used to get this very strange feeling as a kid which is really hard to describe. The feeling of not being in the world but not even knowing you were ever in it to begin with. Its hard to imagine any sort of existence after death. That voice in my head, my voice not the crazy voices lol that is always talking and is infact talking this out in my head while I type it, strange. Could what ever this thing is still exist? Or does it need the brain and oxygen to continue to think and exist only inside my head? Does this voice die as it is just the mental version of me? Could it some how exist with out my body in some way we cant even understand? WHAT EXACTLY IS THIS VOICE THAT IS SPEAKING WHAT I AM TYPING RIGHT NOW? WHAT IS IT? You can even have conversations with it, argue with it but its me, im talking to my self but inside my head? WTF? Can I have some of that?

Rosencrantz: Do you think Death could possibly be a boat?

Guildenstern: No, no, no... Death is not. Death isn't. Take my meaning? Death is the ultimate negative. Not-being. You can't not be on a boat.

Rosencrantz: I've frequently not been on boats.

Guildenstern: No, no... What you've been is not on boats.

Don't you get all metaphysical on me.

I could only quote what a lot of people had to say to that topic, but I refuse to let it take over my thinking.
It's like arguing about whether there is a free will. I just suppose there is and with metaphysical things I just suppose there is not, unless I am in the mood.

When you die.Your body is underground but your soul is in heaven hell or inbetween.That is what I believe in anyway.When the end of the world comes o ur body will leave the ground and join our soul in heaven hell or whatever.
I know it sounds confusing but this is what I was taught and what I believe in.jm

Nicheren Buddhism describes Death is such an interesting manner :


According to the sources I have found( and if you wish to investigate yourself, contact me or Shakyamunison for further info via pm_, Death is simply another stage of Life.


When you sleep you are practically unconcious to the world around you, yet you are still alive.

Death is like the ultamate sleep.

Your current life is over once you experience death, however, you will wake up again and experience life once more...than die again, and so on.


According to the Buddhist Theory, The Universe is alive...all states are temporary, but the material and energy that exists is forever.

The Universe itself is alive, and living beings are conduits of conciousness and experience. When we die, the things that made us who we are will retreat back into the raw universe, and will one day combine to create another.

We may exist as one being, or as several beings.

LEt me simplify:


Say Peter lives a long life, and dies. Peter, as he is, the man he became, will no longer exist. His memories will be gone, as is the life he lived extinguished.

Peter's body, mind, and energy (spirit if u will) will integrate back into the universe. The materials and energy will eventually find its way back together and form new life.

http://sgi-usa.org/buddhism/faqs/karma.html


For a much better explanation of what I said

According to Buddhism, life is forever existing in the cosmos; sometimes it is manifest and sometimes latent. Just as when we sleep and then awaken; our conscious mind awakens and our body feels refreshed. Between the sleeping and awakening, our consciousness carries on in a sub-conscious state. Similarly one's life continues eternally in alternating states of life and death. Death is as much a part of living as sleep is part of the process of living.

Why in the world would anyone celebrate death? Oh yippie my loved one is gone forever I won't see them for years and years YAY! Lets have a party? WTF! Of course we mourn death, it is SAD.

Death surrounds me, I experienced it 2 weeks before my graduation from high school, and it hasn't stopped since. You will never know how it feels until it happens to you, so never tell someone you understand if you've never experienced it. Because you don't! end of story.

i gotta agree w/ you there.

death is just that.....dead. it is one day we're living and the next thing we know, we aren't. it is unimaginable to think how that would feel, to wake up and realize that you aren't alive...oh wait, you wouldn't wake up, cause you're dead. it's mind boggling.

Originally posted by Magee
Hard to imagine what it really is, used to get this very strange feeling as a kid which is really hard to describe. The feeling of not being in the world but not even knowing you were ever in it to begin with. Its hard to imagine any sort of existence after death. That voice in my head, my voice not the crazy voices lol that is always talking and is infact talking this out in my head while I type it, strange. Could what ever this thing is still exist? Or does it need the brain and oxygen to continue to think and exist only inside my head? Does this voice die as it is just the mental version of me? Could it some how exist with out my body in some way we cant even understand? WHAT EXACTLY IS THIS VOICE THAT IS SPEAKING WHAT I AM TYPING RIGHT NOW? WHAT IS IT? You can even have conversations with it, argue with it but its me, im talking to my self but inside my head? WTF?

There are many of these "voices" in your head (and I'm not making fun of you). That is why you can argue with it, and it still is you. Most of these are parts of you that will die when you die. However, there is a small, quiet voice far deep inside that is the connection to the Collective consciousness. That part lives on into many lives. But this is my belief and nothing more.

Just thought I'd remind you guys..


The Opposite of Death is not Life.


The Opposite of Death is Birth.



People tend to dichotomize life and death, while completely disregarding the phenomena of birth.

surpised noone's started a thread on the phenomena of birth....

it's almost as mysterious as death...

Originally posted by Goddess Kali
Just thought I'd remind you guys..


The Opposite of Death is not Life.


The Opposite of Death is Birth.



People tend to dichotomize life and death, while completely disregarding the phenomena of birth. Or the opposite of being in your flesh is being outside your flesh.

Originally posted by Charmed_Phoebe
Why in the world would anyone celebrate death? Oh yippie my loved one is gone forever I won't see them for years and years YAY! Lets have a party? WTF! Of course we mourn death, it is SAD.

Death surrounds me, I experienced it 2 weeks before my graduation from high school, and it hasn't stopped since. You will never know how it feels until it happens to you, so never tell someone you understand if you've never experienced it. Because you don't! end of story. My condolences. I went through 4 years of being "surrounded," like a nightmare you couldn't wake up from. But at some point, you do, and Death is a great teacher.

Originally posted by Magee
That voice in my head, my voice not the crazy voices lol that is always talking and is infact talking this out in my head while I type it, strange. Could what ever this thing is still exist? Or does it need the brain and oxygen to continue to think and exist only inside my head? Does this voice die as it is just the mental version of me? Could it some how exist with out my body in some way we cant even understand? WHAT EXACTLY IS THIS VOICE THAT IS SPEAKING WHAT I AM TYPING RIGHT NOW? WHAT IS IT? You can even have conversations with it, argue with it but its me, im talking to my self but inside my head? WTF?

when you "hear" the voice in your head talk, areas of the brain responsible for language and for hearing are active. You basically are hearing yourself speak, only instead of the sound coming from outside of the brain, the words are being generated internally.

I believe in science... thank you very much, and since thoughts are forms of energy and your consciousness causes the energy to turn into thoughts, and also that energy never disappears it just converts into another type of energy, then if your body turns into dirt or food for a vulture and your consciousness just disappears (which is impossible) then there is obviously something that happens to it, it can't possibly go to another person's mind that would not work so it has to continue on as something... the forces that control the molding and expansion of the universe perhaps? I believe that your consciousness turns into a transfixed state to bring itself into a dream like state to what you find to be most peaceful or most enjoying, possibly many things, but a dream none the less, constantly molding and changing.

Originally posted by lancethebrave
I believe in science... thank you very much, and since thoughts are forms of energy and your consciousness causes the energy to turn into thoughts, and also that energy never disappears it just converts into another type of energy, then if your body turns into dirt or food for a vulture and your consciousness just disappears (which is impossible) then there is obviously something that happens to it, it can't possibly go to another person's mind that would not work so it has to continue on as something... the forces that control the molding and expansion of the universe perhaps? I believe that your consciousness turns into a transfixed state to bring itself into a dream like state to what you find to be most peaceful or most enjoying, possibly many things, but a dream none the less, constantly molding and changing.

not to be a downer, but that is as far from science as saying "God done it"

Originally posted by vivando-loca
surpised noone's started a thread on the phenomena of birth....

it's almost as mysterious as death...






Yes, Birth is actually more complicated than Death.


I ask everyone:


Which has a greater effect on you: The Death of a loved one, or the Birth of a Loved One ? And Why ?

Originally posted by inimalist
not to be a downer, but that is as far from science as saying "God done it"

a bit of belief and the fact that a law of science is that no energy is depleted but rather transformed that would be the scientific part, nothing can be proven of where that energy goes

Originally posted by Goddess Kali
Which has a greater effect on you: The Death of a loved one, or the Birth of a Loved One ? And Why ? Death of a loved one, because of history of attachment.

Originally posted by lancethebrave
a bit of belief and the fact that a law of science is that no energy is depleted but rather transformed that would be the scientific part, nothing can be proven of where that energy goes
That's nice. You know the first law of thermodynamics.

But so far as what you wrote, I agree with inimalist. It's couldn't be farther from scientific.

And birth is not more complicated than death, or to be more detailed not more complicated than how organismal senescence occurs and how it leads to its ultimate consequence.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
And birth is not more complicated than death, or to be more detailed not more complicated than how organismal senescence occurs and how it leads to its ultimate consequence.


Why do you think that Death is more complicated than Birth ?


Birth requires nine months of development and growth, and involves conception...Death can happen in a split second.

Originally posted by Goddess Kali
Why do you think that Death is more complicated than Birth ?I didn't say one was more complicated than the other.
Originally posted by Goddess Kali
Birth requires nine months of development and growth, and involves conception...Death can happen in a split second. That's not birth, that's gestation. Birth is a relatively well understood process. Gestation is also a relatively well understood process in several respects. If you're referring to fetal development then yes, it's a complicated question still under research, but there's nothing to say that it's more or less complicated than senescence ultimately leading to death.

And I clarified that I referred more to senescence, the causes of which are still of inquiry.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
I didn't say one was more complicated than the other.


My mistake. I guess some deaths are actually more complicated than the process of birth. Depends how a person dies.



Originally posted by xmarksthespot
That's not birth, that's gestation. Birth is a relatively well understood process. Gestation is also a relatively well understood process in several respects. If you're referring to fetal development then yes, it's a complicated question still under research, but there's nothing to say that it's more or less complicated than senescence ultimately leading to death.


Let me rephrase then. What I meant was, and I was agreeing with another debator, that the process of how life begins is more complicated than how it ends.

Atleast, it seems to be.


When I said Birth, I didn't simply mean exit through the vaginal canal, I meant the entire process of how life starts. People wondor about Death so often, and mystify it so much, but why not wondor about Birth as much ?



Originally posted by xmarksthespot
And I clarified that I referred more to senescence, the causes of which are still of inquiry.



Interesting.


I just find, however, that the processes which lead to Death are fairly easy to understand. You have the shutting down of the most vital organs: Brain, Heart, and Lungs.

Once Brain Activity ceases, so does conciousness, and all other life activity.

Injuries to vital organs, injuries to the brain, or any phenomena which leads to the interference of brain activity (i.e. disease, stress, an accident, age) can in turn end the life processes leading to death.



Birth, however, is a whole other story. At conception you have sperm and egg, fertilization which leads to the creation of programmed cell formations, and eventually leads to conciousness.

I think the beginning of conciousness is a greater mystery than the end of conciousness.

We all know how to destroy conciousness....just destroy the conditions which support it. But how the hell do you create a conciousness ???




There are thousands of ways to kill a person, but so far only one way to create one- Sex/Fertilization (unless you consider cloning).

hmmm. simple. death is like sleep, without vague or clear dreams, or memory recall. deep sleep. where your conciousness is turned off. i think thats ONE reason why you can never really tell the exact moment when you START sleeping.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
hmmm. simple. death is like sleep, without vague or clear dreams, or memory recall. deep sleep. where your conciousness is turned off. i think thats ONE reason why you can never really tell the exact moment when you START sleeping.


May very well be ! Buddhist sects tend to beleive this as well, and that Life is being awake, while death is the ultamate sleep. It's not that simple, but that's the gist of it.



What boggles me is Outer Body Experience, where a person is technically dead, but they recall seeing thier own bodies and what not fron a distance. As if their conciousness left thier body.

well, when ur having an out of body expirience. you are either as ALIVE conciounce wise, as when ur really alive. otherwise. it cud be like sum dreams i have where i neither have a definite free conciounce, nor a souls, i am simply a FEALING conciounce without ability or desire to judge, like being taken for a ride AS a character in a story book, with the same inclination and actions as that. sorta like the ultimate feeling of letting go and being sum1 else only following a single non contradictory/conflicting/questioning line of thought.

i mean, concoiunce wise, it isnt very differnt even if its when ur dead. to me anyway. the template of the CONCIOUNCE remains very similar in my opinion.

Originally posted by Magee
Hard to imagine what it really is, used to get this very strange feeling as a kid which is really hard to describe. The feeling of not being in the world but not even knowing you were ever in it to begin with. Its hard to imagine any sort of existence after death. That voice in my head, my voice not the crazy voices lol that is always talking and is infact talking this out in my head while I type it, strange. Could what ever this thing is still exist? Or does it need the brain and oxygen to continue to think and exist only inside my head? Does this voice die as it is just the mental version of me? Could it some how exist with out my body in some way we cant even understand? WHAT EXACTLY IS THIS VOICE THAT IS SPEAKING WHAT I AM TYPING RIGHT NOW? WHAT IS IT? You can even have conversations with it, argue with it but its me, im talking to my self but inside my head? WTF?

I think all our self awareness die when we die. So if we are looking for some form of consciousness which remains after death, then I think this consciousness must be deprived of many or perhaps all qualities that define the individuality. It requires a lot of imagination to imagine what that would be like. Perhaps the many feelings and situations of life that we are experiencing all the time make it even harder to imagine.

Obviously this is just a hypothesis when taken in a scientific way.

Originally posted by Atlantis001
So if we are looking for some form of consciousness which remains after death, then I think this consciousness must be deprived of many or perhaps all qualities that define the individuality.
This is why, in the Zombie and Replica Brain Thread, I wrote that, at least initially, there would be no self-awareness left upon removal of all the things that people typically use to be aware of themselves (sensory, emotional and mental experience).

Now, if Death = nothingness, then the above obviously remains true. But if consciousness (in my broadest sense, as stated in the Replica Brain thread) continues on after death, then the process which gives rise to the illusion of the individual self will experience/attach to "higher level" phenomena (this according to mystical schools of thought).

The Tibetan Book of The Dead gives one such interesting account.
http://www.summum.us/mummification/tbotd/

Originally posted by Mindship
This is why, in the Zombie and Replica Brain Thread, I wrote that, at least initially, there would be no self-awareness left upon removal of all the things that people typically use to be aware of themselves (sensory, emotional and mental experience).

Now, if Death = nothingness, then the above obviously remains true. But if consciousness (in my broadest sense, as stated in the Replica Brain thread) continues on after death, then the process which gives rise to the illusion of the individual self will experience/attach to "higher level" phenomena (this according to mystical schools of thought).

The Tibetan Book of The Dead gives one such interesting account.
http://www.summum.us/mummification/tbotd/

Interesting, I'll take a look at that link. What got my attention is the possibility of some sort of consciousness existing without self-awareness.
I mean, if consciousness can exist without self-awareness, then perhaps
self-awareness can be thought of simply like one more conscious experience(like experiencing a color, a sound, feeling, etc...) contrasting
with a more common view that consciousness implies in self-awareness and can't exist without it.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
well, when ur having an out of body expirience. you are either as ALIVE conciounce wise, as when ur really alive. otherwise. it cud be like sum dreams i have where i neither have a definite free conciounce, nor a souls, i am simply a FEALING conciounce without ability or desire to judge, like being taken for a ride AS a character in a story book, with the same inclination and actions as that. sorta like the ultimate feeling of letting go and being sum1 else only following a single non contradictory/conflicting/questioning line of thought.

out of body experiences, while rare and bizarre, are well understood scientific phenomena.

Since we are not truly a "ghost inside of the shell" but rather a collection of neurons and cells, there needs to be a part of the brain that is responsible for placing the collective sensory experience we call "consiousness" inside of our head. In fact, using brain activity monitoring, scientists have been able to locate this region and design drugs that specifically induce out of body experiences.

Originally posted by inimalist
out of body experiences, while rare and bizarre, are well understood scientific phenomena.

Since we are not truly a "ghost inside of the shell" but rather a collection of neurons and cells, there needs to be a part of the brain that is responsible for placing the collective sensory experience we call "consiousness" inside of our head. In fact, using brain activity monitoring, scientists have been able to locate this region and design drugs that specifically induce out of body experiences.

actually, i was trying to elaborate on the conceptual vagueness surrounding the concept reguardless of it being natural or supernatural.
its just looking at what's THERE{sorta like a conciousness}, and how that is not demoted or promoted in rank based on being natural or of supernatural origin. its bringing back significance to what IS there, and trying to understand, that, IT is what gives it significant and not classification. after all, does it really make an out of body expirience more significant if you KNOW its supernatural?? i dont think so.

also its the same thing with conciousness, people seem to feal it insulting to the idea that cociousness is not hypothetically of supernatural origin.

btw, i dont completely agree with you, mental processes are PROBABLY mostly physical but we dont have quite enough evidence yet to say it for fact. just that physical processed are very often associated with stated of conciousness. also, i think there is one problem with a purely physical conciousness as ive said before. if we were just physically programmed, we would ACT OUT in exactly the PHYSICAL way we do. to an observer we wont be any different. however it would be like creating a veyr complex robot. it would be the BEHAVIOURAL CONSEQUENCE of a concoiusness.

but a true conciousness requires that the concoiusness is ITSELF aware of its own CONCIOUS EXISTANCE{SELF awareness as opposed to just awareness}. and i see no simple physical solution or the physical equivalent of a mathematical/programming transformation/function, that is known or can acheive that in the human brain or any computer for that matter.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
actually, i was trying to elaborate on the conceptual vagueness surrounding the concept reguardless of it being natural or supernatural.
its just looking at what's THERE{sorta like a conciousness}, and how that is not demoted or promoted in rank based on being natural or of supernatural origin. its bringing back significance to what IS there, and trying to understand, that, IT is what gives it significant and not classification. after all, does it really make an out of body expirience more significant if you KNOW its supernatural?? i dont think so.

also its the same thing with conciousness, people seem to feal it insulting to the idea that cociousness is not hypothetically of supernatural origin.

btw, i dont completely agree with you, mental processes are PROBABLY mostly physical but we dont have quite enough evidence yet to say it for fact. just that physical processed are very often associated with stated of conciousness. also, i think there is one problem with a purely physical conciousness as ive said before. if we were just physically programmed, we would ACT OUT in exactly the PHYSICAL way we do. to an observer we wont be any different. however it would be like creating a veyr complex robot. it would be the BEHAVIOURAL CONSEQUENCE of a concoiusness.

but a true conciousness requires that the concoiusness is ITSELF aware of its own CONCIOUS EXISTANCE{SELF awareness as opposed to just awareness}. and i see no simple physical solution or the physical equivalent of a mathematical/programming transformation/function, that is known or can acheive that in the human brain or any computer for that matter.

well, you are entitled to your opinion, just don't go trying to pass it off as anything that approaches science, because ya, we do have LOTS of evidence for physical consciousness.

If you really think you have an arguable position, answer the "zombie and replica brain" thread.