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It's getting to me how these soldiers out there serving in Iraq are revered as heroes despite the fact that few have sinned enough to be condemned to either prison or hell. Sure they are brave and they are fighting for the freedom of this country, the U.S., but has anyone stopped and thought of the special treatment some garner?

Don't get me wrong, most soldiers out there serving our trustful men and women who lead good lives, but others see it nothing as an escape from life. The gov. is funding kill tactics to would be gangbangers. They return to the states with a newfound look on killing.

Just a thought among many...

I think war in general is wrong. So much death for so little reason. Hopefully this all ends with the next election or we may end up seeing a WW3!

Originally posted by Scythe
It's getting to me how these soldiers out there serving in Iraq are revered as heroes despite the fact that few have sinned enough to be condemned to either prison or hell. Sure they are brave and they are fighting for the freedom of this country, the U.S., but has anyone stopped and thought of the special treatment some garner?

Don't get me wrong, most soldiers out there serving our trustful men and women who lead good lives, but others see it nothing as an escape from life. The gov. is funding kill tactics to would be gangbangers. They return to the states with a newfound look on killing.

Just a thought among many...
blinding insight there...
the best part is, they are better citizens than you are.

...and all soldiers do is shoot shit all day...

Originally posted by Ashestoashesjc
I think war in general is wrong. So much death for so little reason. Hopefully this all ends with the next election or we may end up seeing a WW3! Yeah...because we're so damn close...

Originally posted by Alliance
Yeah...because we're so damn close...

Don't get me wrong, most soldiers out there serving our trustful men and women who lead good lives, but others see it nothing as an escape from life. The gov. is funding kill tactics to would be gangbangers. They return to the states with a newfound look on killing.

Just a thought among many...
blinding insight there...
the best part is, they are better citizens than you are.

Little harsh, huh? Don't forget that some of them go to war just to rack up some karma points with no real intention of a self-revalation. Morally, does that make them better than any one civilian?

Originally posted by Ashestoashesjc
blinding insight there...
the best part is, they are better citizens than you are.

Little harsh, huh? Don't forget that some of them go to war just to rack up some karma points with no real intention of a self-revalation. Morally, does that make them better than any one civilian?

In my personal opinionalon this one major dimension, yes...albeit, barely.

Originally posted by Alliance
Little harsh, huh? Don't forget that some of them go to war just to rack up some karma points with no real intention of a self-revalation. Morally, does that make them better than any one civilian?

In my personal opinionalon this one major dimension, yes...albeit, barely.

I suppose I can't change your opinion, but would you please explain your reasoning on the topic?

In cliche form..actions speak louder than words...or did you want more than that?

Originally posted by Alliance
In cliche form..actions speak louder than words...or did you want more than that?

More would be nice, if you don't mind?

I could just send you part of a paper I wrote on it.

The military is the backbone of democracy...always has been. Citizen-soldiers are the most powerful testament to core democratic beliefs. The state and the military are inseperable; they are the guardians of the state.

In the context of modern nationalism, there is no more effective way at creating a basic level of unity than a properly structured mandatory service. It can a sense of pan-identity centered around the preeservation of democracy.

Why should you recieve the benefits of the state if you would not serve it? In my opinon, franchisement should be based on service, not on birthright.

That was abstract and i feel very sick, so I don't think I'm speaking clearly.

Personally, the US judicial system is made up of mass conservative bigots and secretive government officials. It's the reason gays aren't allowed in the miltery and that our president has the combined IQ of a raisin and a dougnut... that and the fact that the votes are rigged to the point we have William Hungs and Madonnas winning American Idol...

Hope you feel better

I find it sad that political dialogue in the United States is limited by the 'Support the Troops' logic. Don't speak out against the war, you'll hurt the troops! Etc, etc. The military has become one of the greatest internal political tools of our time.

And if the army finally realizes its true intention by recruiting evryone into the army, who'll there be to protect?

Originally posted by Ashestoashesjc
Personally, the US judicial system is made up of mass conservative bigots and secretive government officials. It's the reason gays aren't allowed in the miltery and that our president has the combined IQ of a raisin and a dougnut... that and the fact that the votes are rigged to the point we have William Hungs and Madonnas winning American Idol...

Say what you want, but the system has always been worse, and continued government reforms improve it. You're asking officials to be spotless in a world where pulling strings is a hell of a more effective way to govern.

But thats antoher story. Our government changes. And the military has nothing to do with the president in power.

You forget that the US military was the first body to desegregate in the US, that went a long way towards enforcing social change. I honestly would expect the DADT policy to end within years...if not before the end of this administration, despite how awkward that may seem. That, if it happens, will again promote social change. Has it been overdue? Hell yes, Clinton tried to do it, but you can thank our good friend Colin Powell for mounting and leading the command-heavy counterattack that ended in DADT.Originally posted by Ymir
I find it sad that political dialogue in the United States is limited by the 'Support the Troops' logic. Don't speak out against the war, you'll hurt the troops! Etc, etc. The military has become one of the greatest internal political tools of our time.

Its always been this way...hell, look at the period after the civil war. The whole tactic was called "waving the bloody shirt" and was nothign compared to the practice now.

The military is political, why? Because the military is the state and proping up the military is a way to show nationalism.

Is it wrong, yes. F*cks like me who hve never served really shouldn't be commenting. The military sohuld be respected as a branc of government, but the politics of 9-11 far surpassed the "you're hurting the troops mentality" which is nothign historically.

Originally posted by Ashestoashesjc
And if the army finally realizes its true intention by recruiting evryone into the army, who'll there be to protect?

i never knew being in the army implied you were in it for life.

Originally posted by Alliance
Say what you want, but the system has always been worse, and continued government reforms improve it. You're asking officials to be spotless in a world where pulling strings is a hell of a more effective way to govern.

But thats antoher story. Our government changes. And the military has nothing to do with the president in power.

You forget that the US military was the first body to desegregate in the US, that went a long way towards enforcing social change. I honestly would expect the DADT policy to end within years...if not before the end of this administration, despite how awkward that may seem. That, if it happens, will again promote social change. Has it been overdue? Hell yes, Clinton tried to do it, but you can thank our good friend Colin Powell for mounting and leading the command-heavy counterattack that ended in DADT.


Very well put, but seeing how long it took for segregation to end it's reign how quickly do you really expect these "social changes" to take effect?

Not quickly at all, but I'd rather move forward slowly than not move forward at all.

Many soldiers are already "out" in the army, at least to some of thier peers. Tolerance is higher than you'd think. It'd be much easier than desegregation. Social change has started without the services anyway, but wearing a uniform is a fricking powerful symbol.

What the hell? Perhaps people should receive the benefits of the state because they pay taxes?

Originally posted by Alliance
...and all soldiers do is shoot shit all day...

Yeah, really. My cousin-in-law's in his 4th stint in Afghanistan and he said he's encountered enemy fire only a couple of times, and it sounded more like someone shooting off fireworks miles away from their camp in the middle of the night.

most soldiers are dumn brainwased right wing PATRIOTS, who understand nothing about how their country operates, backed by the need for money in backwater southern communities ravaged by the not so pretty side of the amercian economy that no1 seems to wanna show. out lookin for a buck and cause its considered an HONOURABLE profession to join the army. relying on their AMERICAN WAY, they blast up the "dumn, backward, infidel terrorists, while listenin to some angry rock{or girl music whichever they choose}. id best not comment on how indiscriminate most of them actually are while killing and what treatment they make prisoners{most with no reason to be made prisoners at all} go through, or the fact that they dont really give a damn about liberation of other countries.

lol, ofcourse thas not every1, but the vast{and increasingly so} majority of US troops. {probably wudnt include medics n such}. whole number percentages of afghani and iraqi CITIZENS have been entirely wiped out thanks to them.not to mention almost all infrastructure.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
most soldiers are dumn brainwased right wing PATRIOTS, who understand nothing about how their country operates, backed by the need for money in backwater southern communities ravaged by the not so pretty side of the amercian economy that no1 seems to wanna show. out lookin for a buck and cause its considered an HONOURABLE profession to join the army. relying on their AMERICAN WAY, they blast up the "dumn, backward, infidel terrorists, while listenin to some angry rock{or girl music whichever they choose}. id best not comment on how indiscriminate most of them actually are while killing and what treatment they make prisoners{most with no reason to be made prisoners at all} go through, or the fact that they dont really give a damn about liberation of other countries.

At first glance I thought this dude was quoting some stand-up comedian. At second glance I realized he did a poor job of backing up Bardocky's statement in the abortion thread.

Originally posted by Alliance
I could just send you part of a paper I wrote on it.

The military is the backbone of democracy...always has been. Citizen-soldiers are the most powerful testament to core democratic beliefs. The state and the military are inseperable; they are the guardians of the state.

In the context of modern nationalism, there is no more effective way at creating a basic level of unity than a properly structured mandatory service. It can a sense of pan-identity centered around the preeservation of democracy.

Why should you recieve the benefits of the state if you would not serve it? In my opinon, franchisement should be based on service, not on birthright.

That was abstract and i feel very sick, so I don't think I'm speaking clearly.

That's of course being a little 1-Dimensional. There are many jobs just as useful as being a soldier. That the army on the whole is perhaps necessary for a country to function (not factually) does not make it reasonable to get everyone to serve it. That would certainly be against all ideals of a free country. And of course there are much more important institutions (non-state institutions even) that have to be considered more important to the live the citizens are leading as well as the existence and importance of the nation itself.

Originally posted by Alliance

Is it wrong, yes. F*cks like me who hve never served really shouldn't be commenting. The military sohuld be respected as a branc of government, but the politics of 9-11 far surpassed the "you're hurting the troops mentality" which is nothign historically.


On a different note, I am sure you feel not as strongly when people comment on the President being dumb (factually), the Supreme Court being biased or the Congress doing shit.

Why should this particular branch, be singled out? Why can't you comment and criticize them?

I've never been Chancellor of Germany, I will still call her a **** if she does something I feel is wrong.

so, shall we flag wave and beat our chests or can we acknowlegde there there is in fact a minority of soldiers in the army which are homocidal madmen who murder in cold blood, and well get away with it because of unusually relaxed restrictions/scrutinisation? granted, the fog of war has always cast many warcrimes into obscurity and hearsay, and this can never be helped. however there seems to be a system in place of "anything goes" with no accountability. so even when they are caught redhanded with witnesses, its swept under the rug.

playing the 'you dont support our troops!' card, or the 'you dont know a damn thing they're going through so you should shut up' card is not wise imho.

i dont think the OP suggests that human error should be punishable. like, some crosseyed target painter mistakenly lights up a preschool. its war, and stupid/brutal shit will happen.

however there must be accountability and oversight by senior military officials. today they allow criminals to exist within their ranks and wont do a thing to stop them until blatantly encriminating photos show up on the 6 oclock news and then its "this was a freak occurance"

supporting our troops, imho, also involves weeding out the lunatics and loose cannons. which endanger them on many levels though their actions, and endanger we the people when they return home.

Originally posted by botankus
At first glance I thought this dude was quoting some stand-up comedian. At second glance I realized he did a poor job of backing up Bardocky's statement in the abortion thread.

actually no, the abortion thread is hopelessly based on people's beliefs and doesnt have a lot to do with discussion so i dont visit anymore, after posting questions which no1 answered satisfactorily at the time. and the reason i sound like a stand up comedian is cause the reality and what the general media{whether bloody fox or the rather seemingly respectable CNN/BBC } are POLES apart. if you actually live in certain places of the world or go to and visit certain other hotspots, youll find that most AUTHENTIC links and channels are portaying the stage SOOOOO fallaciously that its hard to even get a right voice out. and its all systematic{be forwarned that i never really believed much of what i write now until i had the chance to actually see what happened, how it happened, nor was/am i too fond of conspiracy theories. i was a bit like anybody else in oppinion{nor am i a relegious follower btw}} and coordinated in such a way that the onslaught of information is designed to make even OPPOSIOTON of the people in power, believe in a reality which is at the very least a hundred times more clear/conspiracy free/true/better than whats really happening. ofcourse if i tell you now that the planes claimed to have crashed in the twin towers were not actually the ones that crashed, youd laugh at me{and with good reason}. ofcourse if i tell you that the towers were brought down by explosions having nothing to do with the planes, youd rightly laugh at me. ofcourse if i tell you that there isnt a single shred of plane debris from the crash at the pentagon, youd say im lying. if i were to further tell you that america has been for a significant amount of time, actively using funds to fund wars, genocide,instability and general chaos in its opposing countried and most of the third world, ud probably tell others to stay away from me too. so "I" admit that im in a rather weak position to make any1 believe these stories and hence dont tell people to generally, since logically, they SHUDNT believe me. but trust me, if you wud sincerely do some research on the subject, not motivated and affected by your surrounding, and the hurdles{rather invisible} set up by your and some other governments, youd find that most of the top tier of american society{economic, motivationall, politicall, relegious} have more blood on their hands then perhaps the wrest of the world combined{n that includes the natzis}. but, then again, who m i trying to convince, it probably seems like im trying to convince people that aliens exist.

leon, I don't doubt your facts, I have just always believed that most fallacies start at the top. I can't disagree that there are bad apple troops prone to unethical violence (hell, there was that dude that rolled the grenade into his own platoon's tent, for crying out loud), but I just think it's unjustified to call them dumb spelled "dumm" like they're out of Uncle Remus or something.

Originally posted by botankus
leon, I don't doubt your facts, I have just always believed that most fallacies start at the top. I can't disagree that there are bad apple troops prone to unethical violence (hell, there was that dude that rolled the grenade into his own platoon's tent, for crying out loud), but I just think it's unjustified to call them dumb spelled "dumm" like they're out of Uncle Remus or something.


im not calling every 1 dum. i lost a good friend, two actually. an american soldier and a medic both in iraq. still, there are only two motivation factors for joining the american military, ignorance{and brainwashing leading to patriotis}, or need of money. they do intermingle but i do know that almost a majority joins for the first reason, while the second is an added bonus. even so many are turned by the military from normal men to dutiful, order following soldiers who are often cruel, disreguard people other than americans and generally feal good doing it{all with america's significant, fractional obsession with violence, ethnocentrism etc}. im not insinuating that every is like that in the society or the organisation but specially in the military, a vast{and exponentially increasing percentage} have no problem at all in doing anything morally wrong{i mean, killing, raping, having non altruistic motives, disreguarding the rights and value of others.}

Originally posted by leonheartmm
im not calling every 1 dum. i lost a good friend, two actually. an american soldier and a medic both in iraq. still, there are only two motivation factors for joining the american military, ignorance{and brainwashing leading to patriotis}, or need of money. they do intermingle but i do know that almost a majority joins for the first reason, while the second is an added bonus. even so many are turned by the military from normal men to dutiful, order following soldiers who are often cruel, disreguard people other than americans and generally feal good doing it{all with america's significant, fractional obsession with violence, ethnocentrism etc}. im not insinuating that every is like that in the society or the organisation but specially in the military, a vast{and exponentially increasing percentage} have no problem at all in doing anything morally wrong{i mean, killing, raping, having non altruistic motives, disreguarding the rights and value of others.}

Dude, he actually spelt the word out for you. It's "dumb". Your evident proximity to the very concept of it should enable you to remember its rather trivial spelling....though to be fair, perhaps not.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Originally posted by leonheartmm
im not calling every 1 dum. i lost a good friend, two actually. an american soldier and a medic both in iraq. still, there are only two motivation factors for joining the american military, ignorance{and brainwashing leading to patriotis}, or need of money. they do intermingle but i do know that almost a majority joins for the first reason, while the second is an added bonus. even so many are turned by the military from normal men to dutiful, order following soldiers who are often cruel, disreguard people other than americans and generally feal good doing it{all with america's significant, fractional obsession with violence, ethnocentrism etc}. im not insinuating that every is like that in the society or the organisation but specially in the military, a vast{and exponentially increasing percentage} have no problem at all in doing anything morally wrong{i mean, killing, raping, having non altruistic motives, disreguarding the rights and value of others.}

Dude, he actually spelt the word out for you. It's "dumb". Your evident proximity to the very concept of it should enable you to remember its rather trivial spelling....though to be fair, perhaps not.

funny, i didnt feal any proximity to it until u decided to address me. i use minimal spellings online, or are you saying YOUR evident proximity to the word makes you unable to see that dum=dumb?????{let me know without hesitation and ill start using the full rules of classical english grammer for you}

Originally posted by leonheartmm

funny, i didnt feal any proximity to it until u decided to address me. i use minimal spellings online, or are you saying YOUR evident proximity to the word makes you unable to see that dum=dumb?????{let me know without hesitation and ill start using the full rules of classical english grammer for you}

No, I was saying....what I actually wrote down.

But it will be very appreciated if you would use the rules.

Thanks.

Also, I don't see how "grammer" opposed to "grammar" qualifies as minimal spelling, but that's just me.

Also, could you try to use paragraphs, to make it easier to read?

Originally posted by leonheartmm
Dude, he actually spelt the word out for you. It's "dumb". Your evident proximity to the very concept of it should enable you to remember its rather trivial spelling....though to be fair, perhaps not.

funny, i didnt feal any proximity to it until u decided to address me. i use minimal spellings online, or are you saying YOUR evident proximity to the word makes you unable to see that dum=dumb?????{let me know without hesitation and ill start using the full rules of classical english grammer for you}

Can you use it for me too? I would really appreciate it.

Originally posted by Bardock42
No, I was saying....what I actually wrote down.

But it will be very appreciated if you would use the rules.

Thanks.

Also, I don't see how "grammer" opposed to "grammar" qualifies as minimal spelling, but that's just me.

Also, could you try to use paragraphs, to make it easier to read?


blame it on anxiety/general mental agitation/boredom. aaaaand, i find, that one thinks better when they pay more attention to the content of the writing as opposed to what alphabets to use{not class, just online} as thats more tradition and the sound of the word can be transmitted equally well by others.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
blame it on anxiety/general mental agitation/boredom. aaaaand, i find, that one thinks better when they pay more attention to the content of the writing as opposed to what alphabets to use{not class, just online} as thats more tradition and the sound of the word can be transmitted equally well by others.

Yet it's often harder to read their clear thoughts because they way they write it sucks. Meaning your message doesn't come across even half as well, as it would if you would have written it in normal English.

Originally posted by Scythe
but others see it nothing as an escape from life.

Uh. Don't most people who join the military do it to escape where they at? I'm only speaking from personal experience but most everyone I know who served (my self included) did so because they didn't think there was a better alternative, like college. But your assumption that they escape from life (and responsibility) in the military is off.

Originally posted by Scythe
The gov. is funding kill tactics to would be gangbangers. They return to the states with a newfound look on killing.
This can be a valid problem, but whether you are gang banger before joining or not, you can come out a weapon either way.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
blame it on anxiety/general mental agitation/boredom. aaaaand, i find, that one thinks better when they pay more attention to the content of the writing as opposed to what alphabets to use{not class, just online} as thats more tradition and the sound of the word can be transmitted equally well by others.

It is seriously hard to understand what you mean....for me.

Anyone can be criminals too, a lawyer can be a criminal too, a police officer can be a criminal too. What point are you trying to make? Are you honestly trying to say that when commending a group of people, one should first think about the criminals, who are also part of that group? I never praise the troops because I believe what they're doing is wrong, the people they are fighting a lot of the time, are doing it because they have to or they need to for their families. This makes them as innocent as civilians in my book.

Originally posted by Alliance
Its always been this way...hell, look at the period after the civil war. The whole tactic was called "waving the bloody shirt" and was nothign compared to the practice now.

The military is political, why? Because the military is the state and proping up the military is a way to show nationalism.


True enough, though it is sort of a periodical thing. The influence of the military wanes and waxes.

Originally posted by Scythe

Don't get me wrong, most soldiers out there serving our trustful men and women who lead good lives, but others see it nothing as an escape from life. The gov. is funding kill tactics to would be gangbangers. They return to the states with a newfound look on killing.

Just a thought among many...

-------------------------------------

Sigh, can't this be applied to any soldiers?

Edit: Oh well to lazy to fix it but you c it LOL

Originally posted by Scythe
It's getting to me how these soldiers out there serving in Iraq are revered as heroes despite the fact that few have sinned enough to be condemned to either prison or hell. Sure they are brave and they are fighting for the freedom of this country, the U.S., but has anyone stopped and thought of the special treatment some garner?

Don't get me wrong, most soldiers out there serving our trustful men and women who lead good lives, but others see it nothing as an escape from life. The gov. is funding kill tactics to would be gangbangers. They return to the states with a newfound look on killing.

Just a thought among many...


How is the war in Iraq about our freedom?

Our freedom to buy a gallon of gasoline for under four dollars, of course!

Personally, I'll just love the day when the Middle East runs out of oil.

You've got it all wrong, I for one support our troops, but like all glorified subjects, I just wish more people out there new that these people serving aren't exactly day by day citizens.

Around 5 months ago the Los Angeles court threw out a rape case that happened sometime during Christmas time. The victim was emotionally scarred and everyone knew the guy would get his dues. Upon the end of the trial, his records showed he had served some time out in Baghdad and literally swayed the vote in his favor on account that: 'he's an American hero'.

U.S. troops are brave men and women, but they aren't gods. Ignorant people should know that by now.

And another thing!

Why reward soldiers killed out on the battlefield who have entered the military on a green card with U.S. Citizenship? They can't use it! They're dead! It makes a mockery of all legal aliens. F*ckin' pisses me off.

Why support troops more than other people? What they're doing is a career based on killing, they are no more brave than the ones they are fighting, in fact probably not as brave. Respect should be reserved for those who deserve it and in my mind, those who seek a career in which spilling blood is the target; deserve no respect.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
im not calling every 1 dum. i lost a good friend, two actually. an american soldier and a medic both in iraq. still, there are only two motivation factors for joining the american military, ignorance{and brainwashing leading to patriotis}, or need of money. they do intermingle but i do know that almost a majority joins for the first reason, while the second is an added bonus. even so many are turned by the military from normal men to dutiful, order following soldiers who are often cruel, disreguard people other than americans and generally feal good doing it{all with america's significant, fractional obsession with violence, ethnocentrism etc}. im not insinuating that every is like that in the society or the organisation but specially in the military, a vast{and exponentially increasing percentage} have no problem at all in doing anything morally wrong{i mean, killing, raping, having non altruistic motives, disreguarding the rights and value of others.}
You need to stop talking now. You don't know anything about us, and bragging about how you're an expert because you 'know two guys in the army' is bullshit. Don't speak about what you don't understand.


Spilling blood is not the target. Keeping America and her interests safe are. Now, if you want to argue that any certain war we fight is unjust, feel free. But the military doesn't have any control over what we're told to do. We signed a piece of paper saying that we would fight where we were told, when we were told, whether we agree with it or not.

Originally posted by chillmeistergen
Why support troops more than other people? What they're doing is a career based on killing, they are no more brave than the ones they are fighting, in fact probably not as brave. Respect should be reserved for those who deserve it and in my mind, those who seek a career in which spilling blood is the target; deserve no respect.

You're ignoring the fact the those "careers" are necessarily for a functioning society to exist; soldiers do more than just "spill blood". Where would your society (UK) be without your fighting men and women?

How many unreported rape, murders and acts of vandalism and hatred do you think occur out there where US troops are stationed?

Originally posted by Robtard
You're ignoring the fact the those "careers" are necessarily for a functioning society to exist; soldiers do more than just "spill blood". Where would your society (UK) be without your fighting men and women?

In necessary wars, which this one isn't, it's a different story. Rarely is there a necessary war. At the moment if we withdrew soldiers from Iraq and Afghanistan I don't feel it would make much of a difference to our society.

Originally posted by Scythe
How many unreported rape, murders and acts of vandalism and hatred do you think occur out there where US troops are stationed?

I don't know exact numbers for "unreported" crimes, do you? Also, the actions of the few don't (or shouldn't) speak for the many.

Originally posted by chillmeistergen
In necessary wars, which this one isn't, it's a different story. Rarely is there a necessary war. At the moment if we withdrew soldiers from Iraq and Afghanistan I don't feel it would make much of a difference to our society.

I wasn't strictly talking about the Iraq War, in general, soldiers are a necessary part of society. Therefore, a margin of respect should be given to those who choose to serve and possibly die if a war were to break out; especially from those who would go out of their way not to serve their country.

Who's to say; though it probably wouldn't.

Originally posted by Robtard
I don't know exact numbers for "unreported" crimes, do you?

That being my entire point. One doesn't know how many unreported accounts of crimes goes on because just that, they go unreported! I've misplaced my trust on US soldiers, just as I've misplaced my trust on police officers. I'm just stating that it pains me to see the entire country go the extra mile to pamper their ever needs and direct special attention to them.


Originally posted by Robtard
Also, the actions of the few don't (or shouldn't) speak for the many.

And I am speaking out for the few. Not the many.

Originally posted by Scythe
That being my entire point. One doesn't know how many unreported accounts of crimes goes on because just that, they go unreported! I've misplaced my trust on US soldiers, just as I've misplaced my trust on police officers. I'm just stating that it pains me to see the entire country go the extra mile to pamper their ever needs and direct special attention to them.


And I am speaking out for the few. Not the many.

So you don't know how many crimes are committed, yet you assume the majority of soldiers are rapist, thieves and criminals?

Not sure how the country pampers them; under Bush, they're getting screwed, especially the wounded ones when it comes to medical are.

Funny thing, you'll accept the comforts that your society gives you because of it's military (a necessary part of society), yet shit on those who serve so you can have those comforts.

Originally posted by Robtard
So you don't know how many crimes are committed, yet you assume the majority of soldiers are rapist, thieves and criminals?

The majority? Of course not, it's a small figure, never the majority. I just wanted to express the fact that they exist. You would've known that I used the word 'few' several times but I guess not.

Originally posted by Robtard
Not sure how the country pampers them; under Bush, they're getting screwed, especially the wounded ones when it comes to medical are.

The people pamper them, not the Gov. they are two different subjects.

Originally posted by Robtard
Funny thing, you'll accept the comforts that your society gives you because of it's military (a necessary part of society), yet shit on those who serve so you can have those comforts.

I accept the comfort of wave after wave of undetermined men being thrown toward enemy gunfire quite well.

Originally posted by Scythe
The majority? Of course not, it's a small figure, never the majority. I just wanted to express the fact that they exist. You would've known that I used the word 'few' several times but I guess not.

The people pamper them, not the Gov. they are two different subjects.

I accept the comfort of wave after wave of undetermined men being thrown toward enemy gunfire quite well.

So what's the problem then? There are bad apples in every bunch, just the way things are; it's unfortunate. Since we've debated, you've used the word "few" once; you're wording wasn't clear.

If people "pamper" them, it's probably out of gratitude for noted reasons.

Now, who's @sshole did you pull those stats out of? "Wave after wave of undetermined men"... Remember, our military is not mandatory, it's volunteer. Also, considering we've been at war for 5 year, the soldier body count is rather low, thankfully.

Originally posted by Robtard
So what's the problem then? There are bad apples in every bunch, just the way things are; it's unfortunate. Since we've debated, you've used the word "few" once.

If people "pamper" them, it's probably out of gratitude for noted reasons.

Now, who's @sshole did you pull those stats out of? "Wave after wave of undetermined men"... Remember, our military is not mandatory, it's volunteer. Also, considering we've been at war for 5 year, the soldier body count is rather low, thankfully.

You have a very short fuse. Your first statement is all I was trying to point out to everyone. And I could've sworn I used the word 'few' a 'few' more times, but meh, not important.

Wave after wave of undetermined men seems to be the principal thought of all who consider signing up. Along with the war being a crime within itself. It's just what I keep hearing. I for one, much like you, do understand the military is completely volenteer. Well, that is until they start drafting. Which I wouldn't be surprised if they did.

Originally posted by Ymir

Personally, I'll just love the day when the Middle East runs out of oil.

the vast majority of american oil does not originate in the middle east

Originally posted by inimalist
the vast majority of american oil does not originate in the middle east

Hence, my annoyance at the prices

Originally posted by chithappens
Hence, my annoyance at the prices

i ****ing hear that

It costs a lot less than it does here.

Originally posted by Scythe
You have a very short fuse. Your first statement is all I was trying to point out to everyone. And I could've sworn I used the word 'few' a 'few' more times, but meh, not important.

Wave after wave of undetermined men seems to be the principal thought of all who consider signing up. Along with the war being a crime within itself. It's just what I keep hearing. I for one, much like you, do understand the military is completely volenteer. Well, that is until they start drafting. Which I wouldn't be surprised if they did.
I don't even know hat you mean by "wave after wave of undetermined men seems to be the principal thought of all who consider signing up.' Does that mean that we're all undetermined? Or that people are joining because others are undetermined? I really don't understand.

And the draft will not return. It was defeated by an overwhelming majority in 2005, I believe it was.

Originally posted by Kinneary
I don't even know hat you mean by "wave after wave of undetermined men seems to be the principal thought of all who consider signing up.' Does that mean that we're all undetermined? Or that people are joining because others are undetermined? I really don't understand.

And the draft will not return. It was defeated by an overwhelming majority in 2005, I believe it was.

What I mean is all these soldiers are dying and hardly anyone reacts to it. It's like they might as well be undetermined people. Do you get what I'm saying?

Oh and the draft will return. I'm almost sure it will.

Originally posted by Scythe What I mean is all these soldiers are dying and hardly anyone reacts to it. It's like they might as well be undetermined people. Do you get what I'm saying?
All these people are dying and no one cares? There are news reports every day of the people who die. Fatalities are lower in this war than in any other war we've ever fought, and people treat this as if it's worse than the Civil War.


The draft was voted on in 2003. It lost 402-2. It's not coming back.

Originally posted by Kinneary
All these people are dying and no one cares? There are news reports every day of the people who die. Fatalities are lower in this war than in any other war we've ever fought, and people treat this as if it's worse than the Civil War.

Of course it's in the news, that's their damn job! trying askin' around, America's youth doesn't care that there are fatalities. That's my point, compare the death toll to that of WW I, back when the soldier's death actually seemed to matter. The whole country was willing to sacrifice for the soldiers, now look at society.

Originally posted by Kinneary
The draft was voted on in 2003. It lost 402-2. It's not coming back.

There's still time.

Originally posted by Scythe
Of course it's in the news, that's their damn job! trying askin' around, America's youth doesn't care that there are fatalities. That's my point, compare the death toll to that of WW I, back when the soldier's death actually seemed to matter. The whole country was willing to sacrifice for the soldiers, now look at society.

Are you looking in a mirror?

Originally posted by Scythe
There's still time.
Its not going to happen, if nothign else because its bad for the service.

Originally posted by Scythe
Of course it's in the news, that's their damn job!
What does that even mean? Dying is the soldier's job? Reporting is reporters' jobs? I know the point that I was illustrating is that relatively minimal death is huge news to us, something that it hasn't been before.


You mean back during WWII when people were 'willing to sacrifice' because of propoganda instituted by the government?


So, basically, you have no evidence to support your claim? And I have evidence to support mine? Okay. Just checking.

I have other affairs to tend to then argue with such senile hosts. I mean, you're all missing the simple point.

Few soldiers won't get any special treatment for their horoic merit that all seem to have for just setting foot on Middle Eastern soil. Few are lying evil bastards who deserve a quick death. that is all.

And you still have yet to make a point. Roger that. Bye.

Originally posted by Scythe
...has anyone stopped and thought of the special treatment some garner?


Every job has its perks.

Originally posted by Kinneary
You need to stop talking now. You don't know anything about us, and bragging about how you're an expert because you 'know two guys in the army' is bullshit. Don't speak about what you don't understand.


Spilling blood is not the target. Keeping America and her interests safe are. Now, if you want to argue that any certain war we fight is unjust, feel free. But the military doesn't have any control over what we're told to do. We signed a piece of paper saying that we would fight where we were told, when we were told, whether we agree with it or not.

i know bloody well everything significant there is to know. lived in america actually. i understand darn well what the american army does to people in afghanistan/iraq. been to iraq, live next door to afghanistan, visited afghanistan after the war, met with osama in a gathering near the border actually before the war. been to the training camps they use. can you claim all this? i dont think so. on top of that i actually understand all the crap i read about america's reason's for doing what its doing, the facts of what it has doine in the past and why.and any fool can see the polls and people's views on the street in america. and seeing as u have a problem understanding language, i knew two people in the army who are DEAD, and that was to tell that im not completely unaffected by it as some people claim that as not knowing what happens in reality u idiot. you on the other hand dont seem to understand anything and will take a psuedo reasonable perspective to not seem extreme, which is, in the current enviornment of censorhip and information manipulation/handling, completely stupid.

actually, spilling blood is one of the targets, directly or indirectly, as it distabilises the region, lets the army men vent their frustration and encourages their sadistic drives{which helps in further missions}, and keeps the locals and the world, blaming different internal sects. the number of deaths{on both sides} are far FAR more than what you hear in the news{specialy for the civilians}. furthermore, theres nothing stopping the lowers from spilling blood, once given free reign. war crimes are almost at the same level as they were in vietnam{if not significantly higher} in iraq/afghanistan{ofcourse, being the conservative, u seem to portray, u wud shut your eyes and ears to those truths}. furthermore, america's INTERESTS, consists of stealing illegally, raw materials from other countries{in this case oil from iraq} and distabilising them so that the american{typically, the culture/relegion of the higher ups} way of life as seen by the commanders prevails, not to mention that america can cheeply buy what little/much developing/unstable countries produce in terms of raw materials. its an economic motivation, america doesnt sustain its economy merely on the taxpayers dollars and the LABOUR its people provide, thas a delusion. heck anything can be called interest but there is a clear line between legal and justifyable interests and illegal/immoral/unjustifyable interests{after all rape of underages is an interest to the rapist, shud u then have laws which PROTECTS the interests of the rapists?}. and really, if thas what you signed up for than your mercenaries of higher and nothing more, having no moral/justifyable motivations for doing what your doing, other than the money/possible, the satisfaction plundering brings. in short, any reasonable man wud never sign that paper, or join an organisation that does.
america is right now{the manipulating government/higher ups, and to a lesser extent, brainwashed followers like yourself,unwilling citizens who support it with normally not directly opposing and funding bypaying taxes} the single greatest terrorist/bully/detrimental force/devolver of the world in current times.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
lived in america actually. i understand darn well what the american army does to people in afghanistan/iraq.

So because you lived here at one time, that makes you the authority on the U.S. Army??

Originally posted by leonheartmm
been to iraq, live next door to afghanistan, visited afghanistan after the war, met with osama in a gathering near the border actually before the war. been to the training camps they use. can you claim all this?

He said he met Osama?

Originally posted by leonheartmm
actually, spilling blood is one of the targets

Actually, spilling blood is just an inevitable part of it, just like getting grease on your apron is a part of working at a fast food joint. Spilling blood happens in war. You're criticizing the soldiers because of an unavoidable part of war?

Originally posted by Kinneary
All these people are dying and no one cares? There are news reports every day of the people who die. Fatalities are lower in this war than in any other war we've ever fought, and people treat this as if it's worse than the Civil War.


The draft was voted on in 2003. It lost 402-2. It's not coming back.


the figures of american deaths are far greater than those publically given out. its to keep the morale up and take away blame from the government at a time when the moral is at an all time low and many americans are worried over the death of THEIR, citizens{interestingle, on the world news. te american death of 2 soldiers recieves 17 times more airtime than the death of 120 innocent civilians in the war. sorta tells you what the media and america gives a damn about doesnt it}. on the other hand the number of iraqi/afghani deaths shown are WAYYYYA lower, than the actual number. in reality greater than 2.5% of the entire population of the country is VERIFYABLY{which is extremely hard in a warzone/desytabilised region where generally only 1 in ten deaths can be positively verified among the public} dead and the actual percentage is way higher{reguardless of how the american commandes try to deny this very real statistic}.

Originally posted by Quiero Mota
So because you lived here at one time, that makes you the authority on the U.S. Army??



He said he met Osama?



Actually, spilling blood is just an inevitable part of it, just like getting grease on your apron is a part of working at a fast food joint. Spilling blood happens in war. You're criticizing the soldiers because of an unavoidable part of war?


no, it makes me as much of an authority as the other residents claim atleast{the point i was making}. and more so because i research, which is not based on what the general western media just blurts out for impressionable people to believe.

yes ive met osama in 1999, on he afghan border near peshawar{pakistan}. i went with my uncle{a brigadier in the pakistani army} and relations between the two countries were pretty good at the time. it was a gathering kinda thing, he came in a landcruiser, shaked hands with every1{remeber him being bloody tall and cheerful}. my uncle has pictures. but then again it isnt surprising. i met with both former prime ministers of pakistan and even had tea with musharraff at the khattak army camp{before he was president of pakistan, he was just a bum actually}. my dad's kinda well connected with a lot of ministers here since hes a sociable guy and went to the same colleges as most of these people.


the INEVITABLE result of war is NOT what im talkin about, im talkin about the civilian deaths that take place due to the full knowledable CRUELTY and indifference of the soldiers which can be completely avoided. also of the deaths that take place ordered by the higher ups under the GUISE of mistakes{or do you really believe all the civilians killed in palestine/gaza strip by the israeli army were just MITAKES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!} initially i thought this point of view ridiculous, but more and more, as ive seen evidence for it, its undeniably true.
lets make it clear, im talkin about WAR CRIMES here.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
no, it makes me as much of an authority as the other residents claim atleast{the point i was making}. and more so because i research, which is not based on what the general western media just blurts out for impressionable people to believe.


You did research...thats the source of your knowledge, huh? I was in the U.S. Army for six years, homes. So I know a thing or two more than you or Kinneary (he's a Squid). So feel free to ask me things.

And everyone knows that media outlets are biased.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
yes ive met osama in 1999, on he afghan border near peshawar{pakistan}. i went with my uncle{a brigadier in the pakistani army} and relations between the two countries were pretty good at the time. it was a gathering kinda thing, he came in a landcruiser, shaked hands with every1{remeber him being bloody tall and cheerful}. my uncle has pictures. but then again it isnt surprising. i met with both former prime ministers of pakistan and even had tea with musharraff at the khattak army camp{before he was president of pakistan, he was just a bum actually}. my dad's kinda well connected with a lot of ministers here since hes a sociable guy and went to the same colleges as most of these people.


Ijole guey!!

If you have a photo that proves that, you'll be winning bar bets for the rest of your life. No jokes.


Originally posted by leonheartmm
the INEVITABLE result of war is NOT what im talkin about, im talkin about the civilian deaths that take place due to the full knowledable CRUELTY and indifference of the soldiers which can be completely avoided. also of the deaths that take place ordered by the higher ups under the GUISE of mistakes{or do you really believe all the civilians killed in palestine/gaza strip by the israeli army were just MITAKES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!} initially i thought this point of view ridiculous, but more and more, as ive seen evidence for it, its undeniably true.
lets make it clear, im talkin about WAR CRIMES here.

Oh.

Originally posted by Quiero Mota
You did research...thats the source of your knowledge, huh? I was in the U.S. Army for six years, homes. So I know a thing or two more than you or Kinneary (he's a Squid). So feel free to ask me things.

And everyone knows that media outlets are biased.



Ijole guey!!

If you have a photo that proves that, you'll be winning bar bets for the rest of your life. No jokes.




Oh.

absolutely no offence meant, but what rank? record of duty{i mean places, positions, hostile, non hostile}, were u in thi iraq/afghanistan war on the battlefied? and history of engagements youve been in. if i dont know those things, then as an INDIVIDUAL, i cant judge how much knowledge/familiarity youhave with the things i mentioned. furthermore, dont u think its rather silly to discredit sum else's research, just on the grounds that ur IN the army. wudnt that among other things, bias you? no to mention youd have as much authority on the subject as an american citizen does on america's true place in the socioeconomic sphere.


i have a photo, but its with my uncle, n hes currently in chechnya. and no bars in this country im afraid. also, its no big deal really, i know lotsa afghani immigrants here who have pictures with him{none with mullah omar though, that guy is kept with strict guard measures}. most of the time, it was when they talked to him or sum other commander to import/export things across the border without duty{as most of the immigrants here are exceedingly poor}, in other words, smuggling, which is really the only major way things get in and out of this country's north.

also, a lot of people know that they are, but unless you immerse yourself into the whole big picture, even most of those people completely fail to realise, to WHAT EXTENT, theyr biased. its alomost a second battle field of information and they fight for it {in terms of effort and funds} as if their life depended on it. and well for the other half{people who claim that its for AMERICA'S INTEREST that it attacked iraq and afghanistan} i must say, theyr clueless and dont know how biased the outletts are.

Originally posted by Scythe
It's getting to me how these soldiers out there serving in Iraq are revered as heroes despite the fact that few have sinned enough to be condemned to either prison or hell. Sure they are brave and they are fighting for the freedom of this country, the U.S., but has anyone stopped and thought of the special treatment some garner?

Don't get me wrong, most soldiers out there serving our trustful men and women who lead good lives, but others see it nothing as an escape from life. The gov. is funding kill tactics to would be gangbangers. They return to the states with a newfound look on killing.

Just a thought among many...

USA citizens /soldiers are the only ones which cannot be indiced to Internationall Court. So everyone else can be a war criminal, apart from USA soldiers.

Thats just the way New World Order is.

Neither China nor India are signatories to the Rome ICC statute as far as I recall. Multiple other nations have yet to ratify the ICC.

The US has signed and ratified the Geneva Conventions iirc, violation of which would amount to war crimes.

Kinneary isn't only a squid, he's a green side corpsman. A marine.

And, honestly, this dude just said he met Osama. Seriously, everything you just said is now bullshit in my mind. I have no respect for you or your opinion. The .1% chance that you met Osama is not enough in my mind to make me even consider the possibility that you met him. Go away.

Originally posted by Kinneary
And the draft will not return. It was defeated by an overwhelming majority in 2005, I believe it was.

you do realise that your conclusion is baseless, and that the bill for the draft was introduced as a form of protest, right? also you know that a draft bill can be reintroduced and re-reintroduced and so on?

look, dispite the squawkings of certain people i think the argument really is simply that u.s. soldiers must be held accountable for war crimes. its not an attack on our troops. would you want to be in a platoon with some wacko who shot up a family and raped their corpses?

Originally posted by Schecter
you do realise that your conclusion is baseless, and that the bill for the draft was introduced as a form of protest, right? also you know that a draft bill can be reintroduced and re-reintroduced and so on?

look, dispite the squawkings of certain people i think the argument really is simply that u.s. soldiers must be held accountable for war crimes. its not an attack on our troops. would you want to be in a platoon with some wacko who shot up a family and raped their corpses, was reported, ignored, and redeployed?

Yeah, it would make for a good story.

my point is that, as i said, blatant war crimes should as punishable for a soldier as for a civilian. im not talking about friendly fire or accidents. im talking about blatant crimes of war.

it just seems that when crimes are exposed the priority lies not on justice, but in covering up/blame the little guy/wash hands

Yeah, I know I was just joking.

On a serious not though, unfortunately people nowadays think less and less outside the boundaries of their own country. They will see the soldier who committed the war crimes, to have been in a position in which they could not avoid, even when they know nothing of what happened.

Originally posted by Schecter
my point is that, as i said, blatant war crimes should as punishable for a soldier as for a civilian. im not talking about friendly fire or accidents. im talking about blatant crimes of war.

it just seems that when crimes are exposed the priority lies not on justice, but in covering up/blame the little guy/wash hands

The problem is that when soldiers get charged with war crimes it's also possible to put the crimes into the hands of their superiors, generals maybe even politicians... Do you honestly think the US would like it if somebody like Powell or god forbid even Bush would show up in the Hague to be charged with war crimes?

The US obviously fears this and wants to prevent it all costs, at the same time it also sends a good message to their troops. If you do something wrong we will still protect you. Might give some troops a better morale.

The worst thing however is that the US has passed a law saying they can just attack a NATO country the very second a US soldier or citizen gets arrested for war crimes. The bastards, I understand where they are coming from though, would have done the same if I was the US. It's up to the rest of the world to just say, Bush either you start admitting war crimes can be committed by US soldiers or we will stop backing your wars... Who knows that might make a difference.

Originally posted by Scythe
You have a very short fuse. Your first statement is all I was trying to point out to everyone. And I could've sworn I used the word 'few' a 'few' more times, but meh, not important.

Wave after wave of undetermined men seems to be the principal thought of all who consider signing up. Along with the war being a crime within itself. It's just what I keep hearing. I for one, much like you, do understand the military is completely volenteer. Well, that is until they start drafting. Which I wouldn't be surprised if they did.

Don't play that silly tactic "You're angry and emotional"... I am either, this is an Internet board. My first statement here was "Soldiers are a necessary part of society", that is a fact for better or worse, so what's to point out? Also, if you realize the soldiers committing criminal acts are a small minority in the whole of the armed services, what's your beef with "not trusting" them? Just curious as you never answered.

Are you a psychic, you somehow can glean that people sign up knowing they're going to die for certain and for no reason? I have a feeling that all who sign up are aware of the risk and accept it's a dangerous job, especially during a war, but think "it won't happen to me", and they sign up for others reasons instead of being 'cannon fodder' as you seem to think.

Originally posted by Schecter


look, dispite the squawkings of certain people i think the argument really is simply that u.s. soldiers must be held accountable for war crimes. its not an attack on our troops. would you want to be in a platoon with some wacko who shot up a family and raped their corpses?

That goes without saying; anyone who isn't factually a nut or a troll would agree with that, a criminal is a criminal, regardless of nationality.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Neither China nor India are signatories to the Rome ICC statute as far as I recall. Multiple other nations have yet to ratify the ICC.

The US has signed and ratified the Geneva Conventions iirc, violation of which would amount to war crimes.
True. However that is on their own accord.

America has a lobby which makes other countries sign agreements by which they swear not to take any of their citizens to court, while systematically sending those countries citizens to International Court.

India and China do not send other countries citizens to International Court. America does.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
India and China do not send other countries citizens to International Court. America does.

Sweet.

Originally posted by Robtard
Don't play that silly tactic "You're angry and emotional"... I am either, this is an Internet board. My first statement here was "Soldiers are a necessary part of society", that is a fact for better or worse, so what's to point out? Also, if you realize the soldiers committing criminal acts are a small minority in the whole of the armed services, what's your beef with "not trusting" them? Just curious as you never answered.

I know it's ignorant, but that small figure of minorities who commit horrific acts is well enough for me to place mistrust on them. Sorry, what can I say, I'm blind and ignorant.

As long as you recognize that, then we're fine.

Originally posted by Scythe
I know it's ignorant, but that small figure of minorities who commit horrific acts is well enough for me to place mistrust on them. Sorry, what can I say, I'm blind and ignorant.

Well, a minority of Germans committed some horrific acts once, and I can't trust German people now.

I saw a black guy rob a jewelry store on TV once, I guess I can't trust black people either?

And I saw a Spanish guy stab some guy on TV because he wanted his wallet, I guess I shouldn't trust Latinos and Spanish people?

White people enslaved African Americans for hundreds of years, I certainly can't trust them.

I heard of a woman who cut her husbands genitals off, I certainly can't trust women.

A small minority of Muslims are terrorists, and I DEFINITELY can't trust them.

A few Italians are in the Mafia, can't trust them either.

In fact, there's a few mafias in Asia too, guess I can't trust them. Out of 4 billion Asians, how many do you think are involved in organized crime?

God damn those human beings, every once in a while one of them kills another. I CAN'T EVEN TRUST ANY PEOPLE NOW!



Do you see my point?

Originally posted by J-Beowulf
Well, a minority of Germans committed some horrific acts once, and I can't trust German people now.

I saw a black guy rob a jewelry store on TV once, I guess I can't trust black people either?

And I saw a Spanish guy stab some guy on TV because he wanted his wallet, I guess I shouldn't trust Latinos and Spanish people?

White people enslaved African Americans for hundreds of years, I certainly can't trust them.

I heard of a woman who cut her husbands genitals off, I certainly can't trust women.

A small minority of Muslims are terrorists, and I DEFINITELY can't trust them.

A few Italians are in the Mafia, can't trust them either.

In fact, there's a few mafias in Asia too, guess I can't trust them. Out of 4 billion Asians, how many do you think are involved in organized crime?

God damn those human beings, every once in a while one of them kills another. I CAN'T EVEN TRUST ANY PEOPLE NOW!



Do you see my point?

Yes, I do, and like I said, it's stupid and ignorant of me, but I stand by what I typed.

Originally posted by Scythe
Yes, I do, and like I said, it's stupid and ignorant of me, but I stand by what I typed. That....yes...is stupid and ignorant.

Originally posted by Kinneary
Kinneary isn't only a squid, he's a green side corpsman. A marine.

And, honestly, this dude just said he met Osama. Seriously, everything you just said is now bullshit in my mind. I have no respect for you or your opinion. The .1% chance that you met Osama is not enough in my mind to make me even consider the possibility that you met him. Go away.

i did meat osama, and three other commanders. so what, it was back in 99. and my uncle is a bridagier, more people than u think have met osama, he wasnt as OUT OF BOUNDS then or as hidden as he is now{if not dead}. seriously, the dude lived in borken down houses, he was a people's person, thas why he got so much support among the average poor so quickly. you obviously wudnt know, cause u dont know much about this part of the globe. hmmm, remeber playing football with two of his smaller sons{and he had a LOT, on top of many wives which we werent allowed to see}. whats ur problem believing i did, go to the streets of peshawar, i bet you, in a single days walk youl see more than one person whose shaken hands with osama. ive lived in this country for most of my life, it isnt unheard of{ill try to post the pics if my uncle gets back}. its not like i SUPPORT osama, i was kinda young when i met him, im completely against him his relegion/philosophy now. but hey what the heck, the links still exist in this country to get in with those people, over a couple of hundred mosques here in islamabad where you cud, if u wish, get to know taliban typepeople and teachings. i live practically NEXT DOOR, to the lal masjod in islamabad, whore trying to set up a parallel relegious judiciary in this coutntry and have clashed/kidnapped/threatened beaten up people/police etc. its been goin on for more than a year and every time im goin to school n stuff, theres mobs theres, and yet if i pretend to be a good muslim, i cud go and meat the cleric who runs the place, he has definite ties to the taliban/relegious freedom fighters anywhere in the region. hes also met with many high level osama associates{possibly the man himself}, not to mention hes actually ina position of authority in so far as the taliban/other islamic militant organisations go. its EASY in this country to do stuff like that, theyr all over the place. just cause YOU dont know jack shit about this place doesnt mean no1 else does.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
i did meat osama...

Dude, why didn't reach over and break his neck in a swift motion while you were pounding him? You could have claimed the million+ bounty on his head. Duh.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
i did meat osama

lol you fail. now juggle.

Sure they can-no doubt. Should they be? No.

But, I'm guessing here that they're likely more human, intelligent, and honorable than soldiers from most other countries.

Let's not forget too that the US asks their soldiers to be human shields more often than any other country on this planet, including unified peacekeeping forces.

Originally posted by BobbyD
Sure they can-no doubt. Should they be? No.

But, I'm guessing here that they're likely more human, intelligent, and honorable than soldiers from most other countries.

Let's not forget too that the US asks their soldiers to be human shields more often than any other country on this planet, including unified peacekeeping forces.

The second is completely unrelated to the first. And I certainly wouldn't call the US soldiers more intelligent then that of other nations, unless of course you have IQ tests of these people and compared to that in other army's.

such a study would be slanted in favor of countries with manditory military service, imho

Originally posted by Fishy
The second is completely unrelated to the first. And I certainly wouldn't call the US soldiers more intelligent then that of other nations, unless of course you have IQ tests of these people and compared to that in other army's.

It's a guess.

Originally posted by Schecter
such a study would be slanted in favor of countries with manditory military service, imho

Only if the average IQ in the military is lower then the average IQ in the country...

Originally posted by Scythe
Yes, I do, and like I said, it's stupid and ignorant of me, but I stand by what I typed.

Fair enough.

Originally posted by Robtard
Dude, why didn't reach over and break his neck in a swift motion while you were pounding him? You could have claimed the million+ bounty on his head. Duh.

umm, didnt you read the date, it was back in 1999. there WAS no bounty on his head{and i dont need a bounty to break his neck NOW, i was only around 11 or 12 at the time. reguardless of the fact that i dont believe he was responsible for the 911 attacks, ive been on the receiving end of too much relegious bullshit in this country, due to people like him}, the attacks on america took place on 911 "2001"!!
and anyway, i dont give a flyin F about bounty from a government whose a far worse terrorist than he cud ever be.

I believe he was still wanted in connection with a separate previous terrorist attack, on a submarine.

Originally posted by leonheartmm

and anyway, i dont give a flyin F about bounty from a government whose a far worse terrorist than he cud ever be.

idiot

Originally posted by leonheartmm
umm, didnt you read the date, it was back in 1999. there WAS no bounty on his head{and i dont need a bounty to break his neck NOW, i was only around 11 or 12 at the time. reguardless of the fact that i dont believe he was responsible for the 911 attacks, ive been on the receiving end of too much relegious bullshit in this country, due to people like him}, the attacks on america took place on 911 "2001"!!
and anyway, i dont give a flyin F about bounty from a government whose a far worse terrorist than he cud ever be.

He's had a bounty since 1998 for the Kenya and Tanzania bombings, maybe earlier... it's currently up to 50 million U.S.D. though, so don't tell me you would care that the 50 million came from a "worse terrorist" as you say.

Originally posted by Schecter
idiot

dumass. no wait, BRAINWASHED, dumass.

Originally posted by Robtard
He's had a bounty since 1998 for the Kenya and Tanzania bombings, maybe earlier... it's currently up to 50 million U.S.D. though, so don't tell me you would care that the 50 million came from a "worse terrorist" as you say.

and i wudnt have known too much about that when i was 11 wud i?{i mean, understanding the gravity of the situation} besides, i wasnt too aware at the time{since 911 had not happened} about him being a villian and all{not to mention i was also a pro islamic practicing muslim at the time}. REGUARDLESS, i dont give a flying **** about money, there are things far more valuable than that that have nuthing to do with money. never taken any pocket money form my father{cause i hate him} even when i wanted little things a whole lot. theres sumthing called DIGNITY, i dount believe people should earn money without working for it{pro liberal socialism}. furthermore, if i wanted to earn mony now, in a country as corrupt as this, there are a lot of shortcuts, but i dont in the least, that shit is the reason most people here{99%} live on less than a dollar a day. while the richer people around me, are practically BILLIONAIRES{yup, even though theyd never let it out, there are actually billionaires in pakistan, side by side with 99% of people who on the mean dont even earn a dollar a day}. heck in islamabad people drive friggin phantoms and rolls royce. fact is, in so far as money causes harm, i have no desire to take it, reguardless of the fact that u think i wudnt care about who was givin it to me, if t was 50 mil.


ON SECOND THOUGHT ........................ i cud take it, since osama is an ass hole{IF i ever get hear him again, which is practically impossible now} and take moeny away from a tyrant and use it all to influence some african government or sumthin and pull it out of corruption....hmmmm, nice, so yea, maybe id take it.

You just said "I would never take 50 million dollars, unless I were to use it to influence an African government."

Your opinion is now moot. Go away.

Originally posted by Kinneary
You just said "I would never take 50 million dollars, unless I were to use it to influence an African government."

Your opinion is now moot. Go away.

wrong. i said id never take 50 million dollars from a terrorist/conspirater/extremist/manipulative government. if the 50 mil had no ill affects to the wrest of the world attached to it, id probably take it without much emotions either way. itd be useful{were i to use it only for myself} in buying lotsa anime/manga/music/high definiton tv/video games/comics/books/swords/martial arts lessons. plus its give me security enough in this hell hole not to be worried about any1 knockin down the wall of may apartment, and personally, thats really, about everything im interested in for myself, i have no interest in living in style and luxury.

just because YOU are so shallow as not to be able to conceptualise yourself{or others} as refusing such a materialistically lucrative offer{at the price of your soul} doesnt mean every one else{in this case me} is bought so easily.

peace out.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
dumass. no wait, BRAINWASHED, dumass.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
and i wudnt have known too much about that when i was 11 wud i?{i mean, understanding the gravity of the situation} besides, i wasnt too aware at the time{since 911 had not happened} about him being a villian and all{not to mention i was also a pro islamic practicing muslim at the time}. REGUARDLESS, i dont give a flying **** about money, there are things far more valuable than that that have nuthing to do with money. never taken any pocket money form my father{cause i hate him} even when i wanted little things a whole lot. theres sumthing called DIGNITY, i dount believe people should earn money without working for it{pro liberal socialism}. furthermore, if i wanted to earn mony now, in a country as corrupt as this, there are a lot of shortcuts, but i dont in the least, that shit is the reason most people here{99%} live on less than a dollar a day. while the richer people around me, are practically BILLIONAIRES{yup, even though theyd never let it out, there are actually billionaires in pakistan, side by side with 99% of people who on the mean dont even earn a dollar a day}. heck in islamabad people drive friggin phantoms and rolls royce. fact is, in so far as money causes harm, i have no desire to take it, reguardless of the fact that u think i wudnt care about who was givin it to me, if t was 50 mil.


ON SECOND THOUGHT ........................ i cud take it, since osama is an ass hole{IF i ever get hear him again, which is practically impossible now} and take moeny away from a tyrant and use it all to influence some african government or sumthin and pull it out of corruption....hmmmm, nice, so yea, maybe id take it.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
wrong. i said id never take 50 million dollars from a terrorist/conspirater/extremist/manipulative government. if the 50 mil had no ill affects to the wrest of the world attached to it, id probably take it without much emotions either way. itd be useful{were i to use it only for myself} in buying lotsa anime/manga/music/high definiton tv/video games/comics/books/swords/martial arts lessons. plus its give me security enough in this hell hole not to be worried about any1 knockin down the wall of may apartment, and personally, thats really, about everything im interested in for myself, i have no interest in living in style and luxury.

just because YOU are so shallow as not to be able to conceptualise yourself{or others} as refusing such a materialistically lucrative offer{at the price of your soul} doesnt mean every one else{in this case me} is bought so easily.

peace out.









Originally posted by Schecter
idiot

Originally posted by Schecter


the fool who thought hed make a point by stringing previous posts together, yet failed due to lack of the mental capacity to actually read what he was quoting. truly, your not doing any1 any favours by posting ever shorter extracts of your own words{they seem to have shrunk to single words, my my my.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
your not doing any1 any favours by posting ever shorter extracts of your own words

i spared them the trouble.
and sometimes a single word is all you truly need....like now.


just ask any1

A soldier doesn't have the luxury of taking a moral stance when it comes to war. You follow orders and try to make it through your deployment with all your limbs. The guys I served with, for the most part, were of good moral fiber. Death's a door mat when you're in a combat zone, but don't think for a minute that these men won't live with what they've done for the rest of their days. It's war... Bad shit is gonna happen. Sometimes civilians get smoked, i've seen it, that's the way it goes. When they're back state side they can debate the right and wrong till their blue in the face, until then it's all business. For the record, I don't agree with the war. War is about money these days, but don't blame the soldiers... They're just people that didn't know what the hell else to do once they graduated(some anyway.) Now they're in a situation they can't get out of.

Originally posted by Schecter
i spared them the trouble.
and sometimes a single word is all you truly need....like now.


just ask any1

sometimes, this not being one of them. by any1, u mean urself? or do u mean people who have the same mindset as you. i know its not the general public.

Originally posted by Jim Reaper
A soldier doesn't have the luxury of taking a moral stance when it comes to war. You follow orders and try to make it through your deployment with all your limbs. The guys I served with, for the most part, were of good moral fiber. Death's a door mat when you're in a combat zone, but don't think for a minute that these men won't live with what they've done for the rest of their days. It's war... Bad shit is gonna happen. Sometimes civilians get smoked, i've seen it, that's the way it goes. When they're back state side they can debate the right and wrong till their blue in the face, until then it's all business. For the record, I don't agree with the war. War is about money these days, but don't blame the soldiers... They're just people that didn't know what the hell else to do once they graduated(some anyway.) Now they're in a situation they can't get out of.

not being cynical here, but between being responsible for the potential{very high potential} deaths of innocents and the destruction of a country and its people for no justifyiable reason, and being dishounarably discharged, which is the better one?{also take into consideration that ur living in a country where one can manage better than some of the best among ur apparent enemies, even if you earn your living by flipping burgers}. give me an honest answer to that alone{and we wont even go into how many of the soldiers might or might not be of good moral fibre like u say}.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
not being cynical here, but between being responsible for the potential{very high potential} deaths of innocents and the destruction of a country and its people for no justifyiable reason, and being dishounarably discharged, which is the better one?{also take into consideration that ur living in a country where one can manage better than some of the best among ur apparent enemies, even if you earn your living by flipping burgers}. give me an honest answer to that alone{and we wont even go into how many of the soldiers might or might not be of good moral fibre like u say}.

You are a soldier you don't have a choice when it comes to matters like going to war. The government decides, yes you could ask to be dishonorably discharged or just walk away and not report for duty. The second is a crime of course and in order to get the first you would need to commit a crime as well.

Besides a soldier may get money flipping burgers it's not going to be enough to do what he or she wants to do with life, yes more then perhaps some people in Africa or Iraq would ever see but things cost more in the US as well. Not to mention that the standard of living there is higher so you need more to be normal.

Originally posted by Fishy
You are a soldier you don't have a choice when it comes to matters like going to war. The government decides, yes you could ask to be dishonorably discharged or just walk away and not report for duty. The second is a crime of course and in order to get the first you would need to commit a crime as well.

Besides a soldier may get money flipping burgers it's not going to be enough to do what he or she wants to do with life, yes more then perhaps some people in Africa or Iraq would ever see but things cost more in the US as well. Not to mention that the standard of living there is higher so you need more to be normal.

just so the soldier can do what she/he WANTS with life, she/he is willing to be directly/indirectly responsible for killing innocent people/destroy infrastructure/rob people of their livelehood , on false pretexts????????

honestly can you even justify that to yourself? i have hopes and dreams, therefore ill sell my soul to the devil and even commit murder of the innocent need be, because my DREAMS take priority????{seing also that, as u said, STANDARD OF LIVING IS HIGHER, and really your only working for a social place and luxuries which u admittedly cud do without. on top of that, theres more than one ways of making money other than being a soldier or flipping burgers. there are better jobs, and many people, an after studying a bit, earn more than just flipping burgers}

being dishounarably discharged is FAR better than having to kill. this is only for, GOOD PEOPLE who u described as being stuck in the system. more importantly one should nevr JOIN the army to begin with.

and just so u know, i hear ya. i understand what your talkin about, but life's hard. in my oppinion, stealing money from a bank{given that no1 gets hurt} or any other place is a FAR BETTER and more morale way of going about fulfilling your desires than becoming a soldier in the american armed forces.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
not being cynical here, but between being responsible for the potential{very high potential} deaths of innocents and the destruction of a country and its people for no justifyiable reason, and being dishounarably discharged, which is the better one?{also take into consideration that ur living in a country where one can manage better than some of the best among ur apparent enemies, even if you earn your living by flipping burgers}. give me an honest answer to that alone{and we wont even go into how many of the soldiers might or might not be of good moral fibre like u say}.

I guess the idea of showering in Leavenworth appeals to you. Ask your self this: how naive are most people at 17-20 years of age. Some soldiers have refused to deploy... Some have families, plans to attend college on their G.I. Bill, etc... The idea of an other than honorable, or dishonorable discharge isn't exactly appealing. It's easy to make that assumption when you're not in a position to sacrifice or lose anything... Sure, no problem, just walk away from it.
I don't know how many soldiers you know, but i served with about 500. And all things considered, most tried to do the right thing, although stuck in a tough situation. When you're doing daily patrols and being attacked by small arms fire, I.E.D.'s, being killed, wounded, and being mortared when you're in base camp, it's a little hard to be sympathetic.

Originally posted by Jim Reaper
I guess the idea of showering in Leavenworth appeals to you. Ask your self this: how naive are most people at 17-20 years of age. Some soldiers have refused to deploy... Some have families, plans to attend college on their G.I. Bill, etc... The idea of an other than honorable, or dishonorable discharge isn't exactly appealing. It's easy to make that assumption when you're not in a position to sacrifice or lose anything... Sure, no problem, just walk away from it.
I don't know how many soldiers you know, but i served with about 500. And all things considered, most tried to do the right thing, although stuck in a tough situation. When you're doing daily patrols and being attacked by small arms fire, I.E.D.'s, being killed, wounded, and being mortared when you're in base camp, it's a little hard to be sympathetic.

and you think its easy to be sympathetic when your occupied, your family members have been killed, your livelehood and security has been taken away by a FOREIGN agressor? that logic works both ways. 1 thing is certain this world is ****ed and it doesnt work on things like mutual justice. what goes around doesnt come back around so we can set up idealistic courts/judgement and have to deal with the ACTIONS of both side rather than just the intentions of the best parts of all participants{which usually dont show in battle}. you can only be sum1's tool as long as you allow it.

lol, IM a 17-20 year old, and yea theyr pretty naive. doesnt matterm if their naivity makes one of em go in a position where he rapes and kills my sister, i wudnt just sit around and try to give him therapy, id lock him up forever if nothing else. its ****ed up, its unjust, but thats rally the best you can do as you cant sympethise with naivity when the OTHER side has lost a life and had to go through unendureable pain. if IM naive sumday and kill lotsa people, lock me up too. it nothing close to perfect, but best we can do in this imperfect world. and yea, showering in leavenworth appeals to me more than showering in the blood of innocent men and children. and again, i get what u mean, u got things to lose, but those things are nothing when u look at the alternative. {read my last post, i think it addresses all these point}. peace.

leonheart, did you really say that you would take your 50 million dollars and try to pull an African country out of corruption?

Africa is a lost cause, just face it... those people couldn't run a country to save their lives... literally.

Originally posted by J-Beowulf
leonheart, did you really say that you would take your 50 million dollars and try to pull an African country out of corruption?

Africa is a lost cause, just face it... those people couldn't run a country to save their lives... literally.

yea, i did.

and no, it isnt, it was ****ed up by british colonialism, and now continues to be supplied arms by both america and russia{and the new emerging super power on the block, china} and the wars are kept going by giving war lords political and economic intiatives while the developed world powers bleed it dry of iron, conflict diomands, oil, and other valuable resources{chevron actually FUNDED genocide just to get oil outta that continent}. no aid is truly given when it matter and no peace forces are sent in the places of the WORST human rights violations and terrorism, by the self appointed champions of justice whod spen nearly trillions of dollars to go ad LIBERATE two countries on the other side of the world cause they were so filled with TERRORISTS and tyrants due to completely altruistic motives. it isnt a lost cause at all, simlpy because if u say it is, ur dooming the ENTIRE population and all coming populations to misery far beyond humans are designed to endure. and quite HONESTLY, it isnt a lost cause, just have to detox it and cut its ties from the governments responsible for it{suppose thas ur cue to call me a conspiracy theorist again}. people there arent just born WORSE than u or me, they are made that way, and even in worstc case scenario, you have to seperate only ONE generation from their parents{assuming their parents are completely BEYOND HOPE, as u said}.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
and you think its easy to be sympathetic when your occupied, your family members have been killed, your livelehood and security has been taken away by a FOREIGN agressor? that logic works both ways. 1 thing is certain this world is ****ed and it doesnt work on things like mutual justice. what goes around doesnt come back around so we can set up idealistic courts/judgement and have to deal with the ACTIONS of both side rather than just the intentions of the best parts of all participants{which usually dont show in battle}. you can only be sum1's tool as long as you allow it.

lol, IM a 17-20 year old, and yea theyr pretty naive. doesnt matterm if their naivity makes one of em go in a position where he rapes and kills my sister, i wudnt just sit around and try to give him therapy, id lock him up forever if nothing else. its ****ed up, its unjust, but thats rally the best you can do as you cant sympethise with naivity when the OTHER side has lost a life and had to go through unendureable pain. if IM naive sumday and kill lotsa people, lock me up too. it nothing close to perfect, but best we can do in this imperfect world. and yea, showering in leavenworth appeals to me more than showering in the blood of innocent men and children. and again, i get what u mean, u got things to lose, but those things are nothing when u look at the alternative. {read my last post, i think it addresses all these point}. peace.

Easy to say, until you've been put to the test.
I've seen the other side of the coin 1st hand. I've treated women and kids with gunshot wounds, so yeah, i know it's not easy.
Yeah, Iraq is a f'n mess... It is what it is. You want every soldier to drop his weapon and just say no... That would be an amazing revolution, but it's not likely. Our society and economy is ran by the war machine. Yes, it's f*#$ed up. Hopefully one day it will change, but it's not going to happen overnight.
Bullets work both ways over there... It's a combat zone, make no mistake. If you stepped out of a cab in downtown Iraq, you'd be dead in about 10 mins. I've seen priest doing missionary work shot to pieces. Dead and mutilated contractors. It sucks bro, and it's no fun for either side beleive me.

i understand, itd be a miracle. but really the point im tryin to get across is that, your innocence and the life of other people is SO precious that all sane men SHOULD drop their weapons. none of us shud give a rat's ass about war run economies. they are only that way due to choice of the rulers, and posititvely dont REQUIRE IT. heck if any1 is gonna shot any1, shoot blaor, bush. olmert and any yasir arafat type that comes. along with the hasbulla leader. sick economies rent reason enough to keep destroying life, and we shudnt just say, THATS THE WAY IT IS. refusing to accept things as the status quo in itself helps to bring positive change.

Originally posted by Ashestoashesjc
I think war in general is wrong. So much death for so little reason. Hopefully this all ends with the next election or we may end up seeing a WW3!

War is wrong, but sometimes necessary

The Revolutionary War, The Civil War, WWI, WWII, The Korean War, The Gulf War and the War on Terror were/are all essential in order to protect society and the world as we know it.

"It is foolish and wrong to mourn the men who died. Rather we should thank God that such men lived."
- George S. Patton

Originally posted by Grimm22
War is wrong, but sometimes necessary

The Revolutionary War, The Civil War, WWI, WWII, The Korean War, The Gulf War and the War on Terror were/are all essential in order to protect society and the world as we know it.

"It is foolish and wrong to mourn the men who died. Rather we should thank God that such men lived."
- George S. Patton

1) Most of those examples are not necessary. Certainly not he civil war or the war on terror or the gulf war.

2) That quote is skewed - everyone will fight when they have no choice; mouse in the corner kind of thing except it is a whole bunch of mice. That's just a cute way of saying otherwise.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
i understand, itd be a miracle. but really the point im tryin to get across is that, your innocence and the life of other people is SO precious that all sane men SHOULD drop their weapons. none of us shud give a rat's ass about war run economies. they are only that way due to choice of the rulers, and posititvely dont REQUIRE IT. heck if any1 is gonna shot any1, shoot blaor, bush. olmert and any yasir arafat type that comes. along with the hasbulla leader. sick economies rent reason enough to keep destroying life, and we shudnt just say, THATS THE WAY IT IS. refusing to accept things as the status quo in itself helps to bring positive change.

Since when has mankind ever been accused of being sane?