Fingolfin vs. Feanor

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Bruce Leeroy
If the two fought each other, who would probably win?

On the one hand, Fingolfin fought and wounded Morgoth, yet Feanor was created and is called by the Valar the "most skilled and durable" of the Noldor.

exanda kane
I believe Feanor was pronounced as "mightiest of the Elves of old", yet I've forgotten the text/source (I have an inkling it was Children of Hurin).

lordmohahat
it is feanor! read the simarillion. bring back venom so we can have CARNAGE!!

tulakhordpwns
i'm not sure. Feanor is the most skilled and durable probably is refering to things other than combat skill (like jewel making)

correct me if I am wrong but I believe Feanor fought a bunch of Balrogs and was eventually overcome
Fingolfin fought Morgoth and actually wounded him a few times

I think Fingolfin's feat is more impressive

nimbus006
Originally posted by tulakhordpwns
i'm not sure. Feanor is the most skilled and durable probably is refering to things other than combat skill (like jewel making)

correct me if I am wrong but I believe Feanor fought a bunch of Balrogs and was eventually overcome
Fingolfin fought Morgoth and actually wounded him a few times

I think Fingolfin's feat is more impressive

Yes Feanor was surrounded by Balrogs and killed in the battle of Unumbered Tears. However, IMO fighting a batallion of Balrogs and battling Morgoth one on one is pretty equal. Both died, while Fingolfin did wound Morgoth pretty extensively Im sure Feanor was able to do some damage to at least one Balrog. Also if im not mistaken Gothmog who was the high captain of Morgoths army was one of the Balrogs who killed Feanor.

lannfear
Fingolfin ftw...mightest of all the elves was Ingwe...

cheers Happy Dance

CPT Space Bomb
This would be a monster fight. However, I think Fingolfin would come out on top barely due to his determination and the fact he wounded Morgoth 7 times. This fight might take days though.

Blax_Hydralisk
I dunno.

Like the guy above, I'd consider fighting multiple Balrogs at the same time and not being outright killed at least as impressive as fighting Morgoth.

tulakhordpwns
After reading the Silmarillion again I have changed my mind. It says Feanor was the mightiest of the Noldor, so he would probably win.

lannfear
feanor was indeed the mightest of the Noldor in some aspects....but....the reference to his might was more to do with his crafting ability..no one was mightier...also fingolfin was only 1/2 Noldor...his mother was Indis, who was kin to king Ingwe ( Vanyar elf) and as such was King of all the elves....Fingolfin was the greatest warrior of the elves...

cheers

tulakhordpwns
Well, the reference to feanor being the mightiest comes after he cuts his way through Morgoth's forces and fights for a long time against several Balrogs (including Gothmog), so I tend to think it was talking about his fighting abilities. That is a good point about Fingolfin not being 100% Noldor, although he is referred to sometimes as the high king of the Noldor, so I think he was intended to be counted among the Noldor.
That is my interpretation at least.

pottma01
Originally posted by tulakhordpwns
i'm not sure. Feanor is the most skilled and durable probably is refering to things other than combat skill (like jewel making)

correct me if I am wrong but I believe Feanor fought a bunch of Balrogs and was eventually overcome
Fingolfin fought Morgoth and actually wounded him a few times

I think Fingolfin's feat is more impressive

Correct. Read the Silmarillion which states that Fingolfin was the greatest Noldor who ever lived in sheer strength.

Where Feanor was the greatest in words and handscraft among them.

It would be a great fight among them where Feanor would not be beaten that easily but its the sheer power of Fingolfin that will overthrow the fiery soul of Feanor eventually. No doubt about it.

tulakhordpwns
The Silmarillion said Feanor was mightiest of the Noldor, it said Fingolfin was the bravest elf king. Do you remember where it says Fingolfin was the greatest in sheer strength?

ares834
Feanor wins. The Silmarillion says Feanor is the greatest of the elves in all parts of the body. "For Feanor was made the mightiest in all parts of body and mind: in valour, in endurance, in beauty, in understanding, in skill, in strength and subtlety alike: of all the Children of Il├║vatar, and a bright flame was in him."

Beyond that battling a legion of Balrogs is more impressive. A weakened Morgoth was defeated by UNgoliant who in turn was defeated by a legion of Balrogs. Then Fingolfin battles a far weaker Morgoth, while Feanor battles the balrogs who are still at full power.

King-Fingolfin
Feanor wins, he was stated to be the greatest of the elves, though I do recall a statement saying Fingolfin was the strongest of the elves.

Incanus
Actually, Feanor died FAR before the Nirnaeth Arnoediad. That was the battle in which Hurin was captured, so Feanor died before that. But Feanor sustained multiple wounds fighting Balrogs, AFTER he poured his spirit into the creation of the Silmarils, so he wasnt as
"fiery" as he was beforehand. Fingolfin was just an incredibly great warrior, holding off Morgoth is no moot feat, but being surrounded by Balrogs, sustaining multiple wounds, and killing a few in the process in by FAR a greater achivment. Feanor definately.

Allankles
Fingolin was brave but I doubt he had the strength of Feanor. And he wounded Morgoth on his hands, he was probably quicker and was able to slash at Morgoth's hand because of that speed.

I think it's more a feat of speed and courage (daring to challange a Valar, weakened or otherwise), but not necessarily a show of power/might.

Sometimes the size of these Maiar and Valar was a detriment against quicker, smaller opponents.

King-Fingolfin
Quote from the Silmarillion

Incanus
Yes, but Morgoth at the time was weaker than he when he was in Utumno, and Fingolfin only wounded him, while Feanor KILLED them, Fingolfin could only wound Morgoth, and, face it, he got squished ;-) Feanor got hacked ;-) or slashed ;-) while one was fighting a whole bunch of balrogs, one was fighting Morgoth. Fingolfin was only faster than Morgoth because he was smaller. Feanor stayed in one spot, AND he was wounded many times, Fingolfin just got squished ;-) I still think taking on a bunch of balrogs is more impressive than hurting Morgoth. Who was the one who stopped Ungoliant from Killing Melkor, BALROGS WOO

King-Fingolfin
Originally posted by Incanus
Yes, but Morgoth at the time was weaker than he when he was in Utumno, and Fingolfin only wounded him, while Feanor KILLED them, Fingolfin could only wound Morgoth, and, face it, he got squished ;-) Feanor got hacked ;-) or slashed ;-) while one was fighting a whole bunch of balrogs, one was fighting Morgoth. Fingolfin was only faster than Morgoth because he was smaller. Feanor stayed in one spot, AND he was wounded many times, Fingolfin just got squished ;-) I still think taking on a bunch of balrogs is more impressive than hurting Morgoth. Who was the one who stopped Ungoliant from Killing Melkor, BALROGS WOO



Yeah. Like, a thousand balrogs. There is no proof that Feanor fought ALL the balrogs ALL at once.

Allankles
Originally posted by King-Fingolfin
Yeah. Like, a thousand balrogs. There is no proof that Feanor fought ALL the balrogs ALL at once.

According to Tolkien there were very few Balrogs. Initially he stated they were less than 10 Balrog (he mentioned they were only 7), emphasizing their power and uniqueness.

It would be sensible to assume they were less than 40 Balrogs at the height of their strength.

Incanus
The height of their power was during the time of Utumno, when there were a thousand. Only about 5 or 6 balrogs stopped Ungoliant from killing Melkor. Feanor killed 5 or 6 most likely, maybe less. But they are very unique.

Red Nemesis
The number and level of strength attributed to them does seem to change a lot as he writes the saga. Anyone know what the final number he wrote actually was?

(At one point he had balrogs' stature at little more than a man, and the 'wings debate' is still unsettled, as far as I know.)

Incanus
His final number was round a thousand again, give or take a hundred. He could be very busy in corrupting maiar. =-)

Allankles
Originally posted by Incanus
His final number was round a thousand again, give or take a hundred. He could be very busy in corrupting maiar. =-)

Where was it stated that they were a 1000?

Allankles
Originally posted by King-Fingolfin
Quote from the Silmarillion

Quote from History of Middle Earth on Feanor:

" mightiest of the Eldar save Feanor only."

Incanus
I read in Unfinished Tales or in the Valaquenta that there were round 1000 balrogs at 2 times.

Noldorin Pride

Stealth Moose
Doubt it. The Silmarillion explicitly says Feanor was the best of the Eldar. Read the direct quote from ares on the previous page. Fingolfin is very very strong and a good warrior, and it would be an epic fight, but Feanor wins more often than not.

NemeBro
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Doubt it. The Silmarillion explicitly says Feanor was the best of the Eldar. Read the direct quote from ares on the previous page. Fingolfin is very very strong and a good warrior, and it would be an epic fight, but Feanor wins more often than not. Which is interesting, because The Silmarillion also explicitly states that Fingolfin was the strongest, most headstrong, and most valiant of Finwe's children. Feanor by comparison is said to be the most skilled of mind and hand, referring to his gem crafting abilities.

Stealth Moose

NemeBro
"Feanor was the mightiest in skill of word and of hand, more learned than his brothers; his spirit burned as a flame. Fingolfin was the strongest, the most steadfast, and the most valiant. Finarfin was the fairest, and the most wise of heart; and afterwards he was a friend of the sons of Olwe, lord of the Teleri, and had to wife Earwen, the swan-maiden of Alqualonde, Olwe's daughter."
- The Silmarillion, Of Eldamar and the Princes of the Eldalie

According to this, Feanor was not as strong as Fingolfin, nor as fair as Finarfin.

Stealth Moose
Yes, and if there was a weight lifting beauty contest, Fingolfin would win.

NemeBro
Fingolfin's feats also happen to be better. Both fought epic battles where the other die, Fingolfin just happened to do so against Morgoth himself.

Stealth Moose
So the stuff about Feanor being mightiest in valour, endurance, etc. should be disregarded out of hand?

NemeBro
Yes, because the statement is blatantly contradicted.

ares834

NemeBro
The other quotes are about his intelligence and skill at gem-making.

As for "mightiest", he probably did achieve the most of any Noldor. Just not martially.

We have one quite comparing them. Fingolfin is stronger. Deal with it. thumb up

Holding out against how many Balrogs? Did he even wound them?

ares834
Originally posted by NemeBro
The other quotes are about his intelligence and skill at gem-making.

Prove it. The book calls him the "most skilled in hand" not "the most skilled at gem-making" (which he also is).

Originally posted by NemeBro
As for "mightiest", he probably did achieve the most of any Noldor. Just not martially.

We have one quite comparing them. Fingolfin is stronger. Deal with it. thumb up

So Fingolfin can throw a sack of flour farther. Good for him.

Feanor, however, is "the mightiest', "the greatest", "the most skilled in hand", and "mightiest in all parts of body and mind".

Originally posted by NemeBro
Holding out against how many Balrogs? Did he even wound them?

Don't know. But "long he fought on" so he held his own for quite awhile.

Lord Lucien
Is this a competition between what is more combat-relevant: skill (of hand) or strength? Is there any quote that better describes what "skill of hand" means? Because paired as it is with skill of "word" it can easily be interpreted as combative (in sword use) juxtaposition of speech, or it can be interpreted as a skill of art--just as speaking (oration/poetry) is.


F*ckin' authors and their flowery, vague language, man. It's like the "Greatest or most powerful Sith Lord" shit all over again.

Stealth Moose
It's not just one quote though about skill of hand. His endurance and might is explicitly stated to be the best. Feanor fought hard and bitterly against multiple Maiar, the same that threatened Ungoliant after she had gourged herself on the light of the Trees, which is ridiculous in ability for even a First Age elf. Hell, when he died, he was so full of the spirit of flame, his body burnt to ashes.

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
His endurance and might is explicitly stated to be the best. Is there a quote for this specifically pertaining to combat? Tolkien's use of "mighty" is a tad poetic.

Stealth Moose
Ares quoted it before in this thread. I'd copy and paste but I'm on the mobile.

Stealth Moose

KuRuPT Thanosi
How has the discussion lasted this long.. the answer is clearly Feanor and easily.

It's like having Mace fight Dooku.. it would be that easy eh Moosie.

themadsurfer

NemeBro
Fingolfin wins. I now know this more than ever.

When Fingolfin's anger was truly roused, his spirit was such that all of Morgoth's armies fled before him in fear, and he proceeded to badly maim Morgoth, the mightiest being in Middle Earth, before dying. Morgoth, who could still reshape mountain ranges and just days before scorched the countryside with fire.

Stealth Moose

themadsurfer
Actually it is said that many Noldor surpassed their teachers/Maiar for example even Gandalf wouldn't mes up against Galadriel or Finrod Felagund who also made a hard time against Sauron. Also the power hierarchy sometimes have nothing to do with combat that's why Glorfindel could kill a Balrog.
In Glorfindel's case I don't believe he was elevated at all he was reborn with the mighty of the Elder days which were>>>>third age.
First age there were elves that could stand against Balrogs, battle in terms of powers against Sauron, make Morgoth sleep and decimate orc armies like they were nothing. So if some badass first age elf appear in the third age it's not going to be beings(The Nine) with a lot less power than a Maiar(Sauron) that are going to put him down.

ares834
Actually Stealth is entirely correct on both points. According to Tolkien, "He then became again a living incarnate person, but was permitted to dwell in the Blessed Realm; for he had regained the primitive innocence and grace of the Eldar. For long years he remained in Valinor, in reuinion with the Eldar who had not rebelled, and in the companionship of the Maiar. To these he had now become almost an equal, for though he was an incarnate (to whom a bodily form not made or chosen by himself was necessary) his spiritual power had been greatly enhanced by his self-sacrifice."

themadsurfer
wow that's nice ares834!!!please could you tell me the book where this is written? and the date? because this passage also proves the fact that he killed a Balrog. This passage would mean that he became more powerful than even the Noldor princes? don't think so, it's just stated that he achieved the spiritual power of many maiar but as I said many Noldor had already surpassed many of the Maiar. For example Galadriel was still very powerful and probably more than him.

ares834
It's from HoMe 12 and was, according to Christopher, likely written in 1972. So right near the end of Tolkien's life. And, while the Noldor did surpass the Maiar in certain aspects, I doubt it was in spiritual power. I also agree that Galadriel was still greater than him.

themadsurfer
Thanks for that!!! But don't forget that I'm not talking about average I'm just saying that the most powerful Noldor(with the exeption of Galadriel and Feanor) surpassed the middle powered Maiar for example. It would be quite impossible for a Noldor to be more powerful than Melian or Osse. And also don't forget about the power combat between Finrod and Sauron.

KuRuPT Thanosi
Why do you believe Galadriel surpassed Gandalf in power again?

Lord Lucien
Did you guys know that in the real world, obsessing over the meaning and intent behind single passages in books of fiction is considered a sign of mental illness?


I'm sure glad I didn't know that.

Stealth Moose
Sorry that doesn't fit my worldview.

PURGING.

NemeBro
Originally posted by Stealth Moose

Some of this I take issue with; Morgoth did not exercise any land-shifting level powers in their fight, but fought Fingolfin admirably, and Fingolfin was vastly overpowered.

Grond rent massive craters into the ground that lava spurted out of. His mace alone shifts the land.

Fingolfin was beating his nancy ass is what you mean. Morgoth won solely because his stamina is effectively infinite, and Fingolfin's is not. With equal stamina, Fingolfin would have laid him low.



He was able to dance about Morgoth's attacks due to his martial supremacy, yes. Oh, and he actually did endure three strikes from Morgoth before finally being pinned to the ground under Morgoth's heel.



Your father said that last night.



So what you are telling me is that Fingolfin's might as such that he was mistaken for a Valar?

That... Isn't helping Feanor's case.

Stealth Moose

NemeBro
Fingolfin wins. thumb up

Stealth Moose
You suck.

NemeBro
Calm down.

Stealth Moose
I AINT MAD BRO.

NemeBro
.nwod mlaC

Stealth Moose
K.

https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/3758708992/h8367CA8E/

NemeBro
Clam dwon.

Stealth Moose
LOLNOPE.

themadsurfer
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Why do you believe Galadriel surpassed Gandalf in power again?

Galadriel>Glorfindel, she was said to be the mightiest of the elves of the Third age.
Glorfindel=Gandalf(spiritual power), Glorifindel was capable of scarring the WK twice while Gandalf was very worried about him(almost afraid)

Lord Lucien
Gandalf the Grey or White?

themadsurfer
Grey for sure but the White was more powerful still don't know if he could destroy an entire fortress with his own power.

Stealth Moose
Originally posted by themadsurfer
Galadriel>Glorfindel, she was said to be the mightiest of the elves of the Third age.
Glorfindel=Gandalf(spiritual power), Glorifindel was capable of scarring the WK twice while Gandalf was very worried about him(almost afraid)

Keep in mind that Glorfindel has Maiar-like power according to Tolkien himself, and he is so powerful that the idea of him accompanying the Nine would make stealth impossible.

themadsurfer
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Keep in mind that Glorfindel has Maiar-like power according to Tolkien himself, and he is so powerful that the idea of him accompanying the Nine would make stealth impossible.

Keep in mind that Tolkien said that Galadriel was the mightiest elf in the Third Age. Finrod her brother who wasn't as powerful as her could stand against Sauron in a "power" match. Glorfindel was enhanced, true, but he still can't overcame her power. She also learned a lot with a Maiar much more powerful than Gandalf which was Melian.
Only being a Maiar doesn't mean that you're more powerful than even the most powerful elves or do you think that Glorfindel would have the power to break a fortress or make freaking powerful artifacts like the Silmarills.

Stealth Moose
Originally posted by themadsurfer
Keep in mind that Tolkien said that Galadriel was the mightiest elf in the Third Age.

True.



This is misleading. Finrod lost. Also, employing more Silmarillion absolute statements, he was the 'wisest of the Noldor' and yet Sauron had the mastery.



I'm not entirely sure the gap, if any, is as wide as you suggest. Glorfindel is explicitly full of angelic Maiar like power, and made the Nine pretty much flee from him every time. Alone among the elves of Rivendell he was unafraid of the Nine, and with good reason. This puts him well above Gandalf the White in personal power.



But we don't know what, if anything, she learned from Melian. At least, not specifically. If you're speaking of say, power used in personal combat, Glorfindel actually has significant combat experience (Gondolin, Angmar, the Nine). Comparatively, Melian is known for her defensive Girdle, and her maintaining of the beauty and wonder of her personal realm. In this, Galadriel and her are kin. But neither has really "blown away" an opponent, which is a pre-requisite I consider for measuring power. Otherwise, you're measuring something else like 'wisdom' or 'esoteric knowledge' in which Galadriel may be superior.



Actually, this feat is being taken out of context. Galadriel "threw down the gates" but lead a coalition of Lorien elves and the White Council, and we know almost no details of the attack/siege if any, took place. We know Sauron fled, and technically the tower stood until the War of the Ring. I'm not even sure if it was occupied by the Council or if they just made sure Sauron and the Nine tucked tail and ran. It's entirely possible she used elf magic to throw down the literal gates, and they looked inside and saw a "Gotta run, sorry folks!" note from Sauron.



This is unrealistic, given that none of the Valar could replicate this as well, and their personal power was much greater than Feanor's. A unique creative talent is not in itself representative of absolute personal power.

ares834
I'd say Gandalf is beyond Galadriel.

"'Dangerous!' cried Gandalf. 'And so am I, very dangerous: more dangerous than anything you will ever meet, unless you are brought before the seat of the Dark Lord.'"

In Letter 246 , Tolkien claims that he believes that the only being (while using the One Ring) in LotR capable of defeating Sauron is Gandalf. He goes on saying Galadriel's belief that she could do so was a "deceit" of the Ring.

"Of the others only Gandalf might be expected to master him - being an emissary of the Powers and a creature of the same order, an immortal spirit taking a visible physical form. In the 'Mirror of Galadriel', 1381, it appears that Galadriel conceived of herself as capable of wielding the Ring and supplanting the Dark Lord. If so, so also were the other guardians of the Three, especially Elrond. But this is another matter. It was part of the essential deceit of the Ring to fill minds with imaginations of supreme power."

Stealth Moose
Gandalf unchained, absolutely. Gandalf the Grey? Even Gandalf the White? Not so sure. He's been limited.

But great use of sources.

themadsurfer
Finrod vs Sauron was a great power duel where he managed to held his owns against Sauron and while battling Tolkien said something like this: "Sauron was really powerful but Finrod's power was also immense..." - that indicates that he has enough power to give Sauron a hard time.
I'm talking about Galadriel destroying Dol Guldur after the Ring was destroyed: "They took Dol Guldur, and Galadriel threw down its walls and laid bare its pits, and the forest was cleansed"
Turin defeated a Dragon that doesn't mean he was more powerful than him or when Sauron was defeated, so single combat is not a pre-requisite to measure power.
The Valar had the power to make a Silmarill but they lack the skill which was something Feanor had above anyone, and many Noldor were said to pass their masters (Maiar) in skill and maybe some in spiritual power since Feanor became ash after he died.

Stealth Moose
Originally posted by themadsurfer
Finrod vs Sauron was a great power duel where he managed to held his owns against Sauron and while battling Tolkien said something like this: "Sauron was really powerful but Finrod's power was also immense..." - that indicates that he has enough power to give Sauron a hard time.

Finrod is a First Age elflord, and pretty wise. There's no disputing that. But this is kind of irrelevant given that it doesn't relate to the thread nor the original problem. In any case, his showing against Sauron has nothing to do with Galadriel.



Which could be figurative. The tower wasn't destroyed literally until the War of the Ring. And again, you have zero idea of the manner she used, how long it took, or whether or not she was aided by her retinue or the Council.



But it's a strong indicator. Turin's defeat of the dragon is not in itself raw power matched against raw power. Conversely, if two spiritually powerful beings like Maiar/Elves strive against each other, they use their innate magic among other things. It's a completely different scenario.



No they don't. That's a huge plot point for the Silmarillion. The light cannot be recreated, because it was unique to the two trees which are long dead. And the narrative says that no one had any clue how Feanor accomplished what he did.



Feanor is an exception, since he is the strongest elf in Tolkien literature, explicitly.

The Noldor were excellent craftsmen and may have surpassed some Maiar, but it's telling that Sauron, a Maiar of Aule's order, specifically showed them the height of their craft with the Rings of Power.

In any case, I concede that Tolkien notes Galadriel as the strongest elf in the Third Age. I simply believe that in personal combat, Glorfindel is far more dangerous, because of how ridiculously pathetic the Nine were before him.

themadsurfer
What I'm trying to say hand-to-hand Glorfindel win, but Galadriel can win via Magical powers.
My statement about Galadriel destroying Dol Guldur is AFTER the war of the ring so Dol Guldur was literally destroyed since Celeborn started to live there.

Stealth Moose
I misread you, sorry. You're right about Dol Guldur.

NemeBro

Stealth Moose
Feanor is stronger than Fingolfin. Ur mad bro.

Also, nothing says Glorfindel couldn't hang with the Witch-king given that he scared the guy off alone looking for the Ring.

You calm down.

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