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In saber combat, takes place on Utapau, where Obi-Wan fought General Grievous.

Who wins?

Oh, and obviously they can use the Force to increase their saber skills and do slips and stuff, just no Force Powers.

I think the fact that Revan was the best in an order of tens of thousands, is enough for him to be superior to MAul.

Maybe.

Revan owns him in the long run but Maul is good also id say a breif 15 minute fight so Kinda Close..

It stands to reason that Revan was good, but to what degree? It's hard to classify, seeing as nothing in either game cements his abilities compared to the stronger characters of earlier and later eras.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
I think the fact that Revan was the best in an order of tens of thousands, is enough for him to be superior to MAul.

What a crock. Nevermind that Anoon Bondara's prowess with a blade was described as "second to none" by the omniscient narrator, and that Maul made short work of him.

You'll need more proof than that, Sexy.

Perhaps. Thanks for calling me SExy though.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Perhaps. Thanks for calling me SExy though.

Lol.

Maul can win ths. Depends on how long he can last.

If it's purely sabers, I believe Revan is handicapped in this fight and I can see Maul beating him.

Revan PWNS.

Regarding Revan's proficiency in melee combat:

- He single handedly killed two large Terentatek beasts (who are heavily armored and are immune to Force attacks) and that too easily with his blade. This is a feat that even the top Jedi hunters of KOTOR period failed to accomplish.

- He destroyed Yusanis (the most powerful Echani warrior ever known) in a single combat that involved duel with melee weapons.

- Revan played a major role in the destruction of an entire Sith army stationed on the Star Forge. He also killed a high profile "Sith Lord" in a saber duel, who was among the greatest warriors of his age and was better then Maul in most aspects of the Force.

Also, Revan was acknowledged to be a Prodigy in the end of KOTOR by the most famous Jedi Master of his age due to his impressive feats in the battle of the Star Forge.

Some more things to keep in mind:

- Revan's precognition capabilities are excellent.

- Revan is very strong in the Force.

- Revan is believed to be among the greatest practitioners of Jar Kai Saber combat style.

Originally posted by ThoraxeRMG
Revan PWNS.

Got any, y'know, proof?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
He single handedly killed two large Terentatek beasts

By means unknown.



Prove up. Just because you say it, doesn't make it so. As far as I recall, you can use Force stun on them.



Where's the evidence of how he killed them, hm? Your stating conclusions without any viable proof.



Prove up. Just because you say it, doesn't make it so.



Uh. Who said it was a saber duel? Once again, your stating conclusions without any viable proof. What source supports that the duel between Malak and Revan was a lightsaber battle for longer than say, two seconds (or even if you're referring to Bandon, the same applies)?

Oh? What's that? It's just another feat you pulled out of your ass without giving any forethought?



Originally posted by Advent
Nevermind that Anoon Bondara's prowess with a blade was described as "second to none" by the omniscient narrator, and that Maul made short work of him.



Which means little to jack shit. We've seen cases where someone who is much, much more stronger in the Force is incapable of defeating an opponent in lightsaber combat.



Big f'in deal. It hardly matters when dealing against another prodigious being.



Maul can see the near future too, what's your point? Revan's precognitive abilities aren't infallible, insomuch as he canonically got caught twice in attacks.



As was Anoon Bondara, who was capable of picking up boulders with ease as a padawan, and was described by the omniscient narrator as "living in the Force".



Right. "Is believed"? By who? A crack whore with a bum leg? Give me the quote and source, now. Not that it matters, as just because one is believed doesn't mean one actually is.

And even if he is, what does that even mean in the context of this fight? Again, I must bring up Anoon Bondara, who's technical prowess was unmatched during his era. Which speaks volumes.

Revan's saber skills are largely unknown, except for the part where he's a prodigy and the best in an order of tens of thousands. Now I don't know how that compares to the PT Jedi, but it's highly unlikely Maul can defeat him due to the large discrepancies in force abilities.

Uh, what in the blue hell are you babbling on about? Elaborate.

Every time I see Revan featured in a thread, I wanna vomit. LeGenD is worse than Emperor Revan at his finest, for those of you who remember him.

Edit: 'Ello, Advent, my love.

OMFB!! Gideon called me his love!!!/1! I just fainted.

To define Maul as a character rather than a marketing ploy is idiocy.

Originally posted by Advent
Uh, what in the blue hell are you babbling on about? Elaborate.

Just what I wrote my pet. Revan's a prodigy and the best in the order, but it's hard to compare the two orders without more information. Ergo, I hate seeing Revan in a saber duel.

Escape, I feel the same way about Exar Kun or even Sidious.

Originally posted by exanda kane
To define Maul as a character rather than a marketing ploy is idiocy.

You're a funny guy, exanda.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Just what I wrote my pet.

You're a funny guy, exanda Darth Sexy.



Right, but how does that equate into "it's highly unlikely Maul can defeat him"?

Which is what I'm questioning, as that makes about as much sense as you calling me your "pet".



Oh, but you're willing to say that it's doubtful Maul wins based on... absolutely nothing! Wait, I forgot about his "greater Force abilities". Surely those will net him the win. *rollseyes*.

Unless the saber discrepancies between the two are great enough to negate the superiority of Revan's force abilities, then yes, I find it highly unlikely that Maul will win. And please, don't roll your eyes. It makes you look like a tease, especially when you're playing hard to get.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Unless the saber discrepancies between the two are great enough to negate the superiority of Revan's force abilities, then yes

I'm inclined to say that it's a ridiculous assumption to say because "X has more strength in the Force than Y, X wins", despite the fact there's little to nothing definitively known regarding Revan's lightsaber skills. Which for all we know, could be as good as Anoon Bondara's, who Maul mopped the floor with.

And why do you continually bring up "force abilities"? What abilities are you even talking about, huh? He can't pull a Force storm out of his ass in a match that bars offensive powers.

If you're talking about passive usage of the Force, then again, what does he have that Maul can't match?



Then you better check your map again, because what you found is way off. Not to mention absurd and unsupported.

The rest is just .

Originally posted by Advent
OMFB!! Gideon called me his love!!!/1! I just fainted.

DS, top that, you bastard.

Advent Lol you can kinda stop insulting people now its just a debate and iv played KOTOR 1 AND 2 very often i have no viable proof or source to show you but in the game it is stated that Revan was VERY powerful and skilled in saber and force combat.

Originally posted by Gideon
DS, top that, you bastard.


Top what? Advent wants what she can't have, so she settles for "Junior Varsity".

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Top what? Advent wants what she can't have, so she settles for "Junior Varsity".

Lmao.

Revan probably wins, but its close, Revan is a smarter fighter, i am not saying Maul is stupid, because he is not, but Revan is renowned for his strategy, not just overall in battles, but also in personal combat. He is also a master of unarmed combat, as i remember from KOTOR(i could be wrong, haven't played the game for a long time), but Maul is better in this department and i would say, he has higher stamina then Revan, as well pain tolerance, so Revan will tire out quicker. But, as i said, i think Revan would win, but Maul has a chance of wining, especially if he uses his stronger psychical strength and wears down Revan.

Hasn't Canderous stated Revan as the "greatest warrior the galaxy had ever seen?". And he actually saw ones like Ullic or Kun fighting, especially Ullic against Mandalore. If after this Canderous still says such thing i think this tells you something. By the way, Revan beat in single combat:

-Darth Malak
-Yusanis
-Mandalore
-Bastilla
-Calo Nord (the greatest bounty hunter of his time, a legend between them and a guy who was showed by his own records to have hunted a RANCOR)
-Uthar and Yuthura at the same time

He was also the "greatest duelist to ever grace the rings of Taris". Let's not forget he accomplished such thing WITHOUT the use of the force.

Well, basicly he owned no more no less then ALL the great ones of his time in single combat.

I think Revan beats Mauls with his lightsaber.

Originally posted by MasterAshenVor
Advent Lol you can kinda stop insulting people now its just a debate. I am an idiot.

Give me something I don't already know for $500, Alex.



Do you want an award or something? I suspect it would go something like "First Annual KotOR Awards: MasterAshenWhore, First place, Most Times Played KOTOR 1/2, 'Get a life'".



lol!

You have no evidence to support your claims, yet you made them despite that fact. Wow, I suggest reading this:

http://img365.imageshack.us/img365/3764/unsupportedass6kyy6.jpg

Maybe LeGend will lend you his copy, as he obviously never uses it.



Thank you for sleuthing up the obvious, Detective Dipshit.

"ZOMG, REVAN IS TEH BEST!", and like Maul isn't extremely talented with a lightsaber. I mean, it's not like he went up against a foe who was "VERY powerful and skilled in saber and the force", and wiped his ass with him (Anoon).

It's asinine at best continually repeat what is already known, and then expect that it holds any water when it's already been addressed.

Originally posted by Count Makashi
Revan probably wins, but its close, Revan is a smarter fighter

He wins, which is supported by the fact that he's... smarter? Huzzah for capable reasoning skills.

Also, where's it noted that he's received acclaim for his strategies in one on one combat? Even if it is, I hardly see how that equates to victory when little is known on his actual skills (and certainly not enough to compare him to earlier and later eras).



This isn't the UFC, Iceman. And you already brought up the point that Maul is superior in this category, so why even mention it?



He wins, which is supported by the fact that he's... smarter? Huzzah for capable reasoning skills.

Originally posted by kamhal
Hasn't Canderous stated Revan as the "greatest warrior the galaxy had ever seen?"

Yeah. It's called hyperbole. Unless, of course, Canderous has seen every warrior the galaxy has.



Except not, because Kun's never shown fighting in large scale battles, much less with the Mandalorians involved. After Mandalore is defeated, we only ever see Kun go to Coruscant and Ossus, at neither place is Canderous - or any Mandalorians for that matter - present (they're on Onderon when Kun and Ulic are on the latter planet).

Are you done not knowing shit about what you're talking about yet?



You do realize that "greatest" is ambiguous, right? Insomuch as it doesn't put him over anyone else in terms of power. One can interpret his words as Revan's the overall greatest (with achievements, and strategic adeptness in mind). It hardly means that Revan is stronger than Ulic.

Not that any of it matters, because just because Canderous (of all people) said it, doesn't make it so. It's nothing more than a sentiment coming from his mouth, which is subjective.



True, it does tell us something: that he's full of shit.



Feat wars. Put them into context, elsewise they mean jack shit.



Funny, because that's optional, not canonical. Oops! I guess the "Mysterious Stranger" is nothing more than a masturbation technique, as there's no proof that it ever happened.



Funny, because that's optional, not canonical. Oops! I guess the "Mysterious Stranger" is nothing more than a masturbation technique, as there's no proof that it ever happened.



"Owned"? Prove up. As far as I'm concerned, all the feats you listed had unknown circumstances, save for his fight against Mandalore (which, while known what type of combat, what happened in the battle itself is unknown).



You could wipe a cockatoo's ass with what you think, kamhal.

You Edited all those quotes Advent and Canderous alredy Sayed he was the Greatest Jedi in the Galaxy at his time period.


And Advent why dont you GET A LIFE and stop insulting People HMMM....? and NO IM NOT AN IDIOT......

Originally posted by MasterAshenVor
You Edited all those quotes Advent

I only added to your post, and only to the extent to express what I believe you to be. I didn't change any of the "points" (if you can even call them that) you attempted to make.

So, address the rebuttal or don't comment at all.



Already addressed, see previous post.



Because they're too expensive for poor country folk like me.



I wouldn't even have to "insult people" were they not to continuously spill idiocy. But next time, I'll try to keep in mind that MasterAshenVor wants me to be more civil.



I agree wholeheartedly.

holy shit, I haven't laughed this hard on this forum for a long time. Way to go Advent. You have proven that sometimes women ARE smarter than men.

Yeah. Probably the stupiest dumbshit (:laugh i had ever seen in a forum.

Originally posted by kamhal
Yeah. Probably the stupiest dumbshit (:laugh i had ever seen in a forum.

Now he resorts to acting like I didn't shoot down his argument and for some reason or another you failed to give a cogent rebuttal. Yeah, that's basically a white flag.

Nice try son. Better luck next time.

Ahahahaha. Keep up the comic relief Advent.

This is precisely why she and I are meant to be...

What is you reasons for saying Maul would win Advent? So far I have seen this:

Nevermind that Anoon Bondara's prowess with a blade was described as "second to none" by the omniscient narrator, and that Maul made short work of him.

Originally posted by Utrigita
What is you reasons for saying Maul would win Advent so far I have seen this:

Nevermind that Anoon Bondara's prowess with a blade was described as "second to none" by the omniscient narrator, and that Maul made short work of him.

And why are 9 people in favour of Revan?

Originally posted by Advent
By means unknown.
From your point of view, can you tell me that how Revan killed those monsters?

Originally posted by Advent
Prove up. Just because you say it, doesn't make it so. As far as I recall, you can use Force stun on them.
Several sources have indicated that Terentatek beasts are immune to Force attacks.

Here are some:

Link 1: Click!
Link 2: Click!
Link 3: Click!

Even in the KOTOR game, most of the Force attacks do not work on Terentatek beasts. However the game developers still allowed one kind of Force Power to work on the Terentatek beasts and this power is Force Stun. But this is just a work of Game Mechanics to make it easy for the gamers to defeat those monsters and is not a canonical fact, unless proven by an another source.

So we have one more viable option left and that is the use of Light Saber or a Sith Sword.

Originally posted by Advent
Where's the evidence of how he killed them, hm? Your stating conclusions without any viable proof.
There is no concrete evidence but we can logically deduce that Revan had to kill those monsters using a melee weapon because there were no other viable options left, since the monsters were immune to Force attacks.

Originally posted by Advent
Prove up. Just because you say it, doesn't make it so.
Here is a description about Yusanis from the KOTOR Journal:

Yusanis was the most famous of Echani warriors, fighting against oppression and villainy until encountering Darth Revan. Discovering that Revan had killed an Echani senator, Yusanis attempted to tell authorities but fell to the powers of the Sith Lord despite his own mpressive abilities and the cortosis weave inherent in all Echani vibroblades.

Here is some more information about Yusanis from an another source: Click!

Yusanis developed a special melee weapon for fighting purposes, which was known as Yusanis Brand. He challenged Darth Revan to a duel and used that special weapon against him, but was still defeated and killed by him.

Originally posted by Advent
Uh. Who said it was a saber duel? Once again, your stating conclusions without any viable proof. What source supports that the duel between Malak and Revan was a lightsaber battle for longer than say, two seconds (or even if you're referring to Bandon, the same applies)?

Oh? What's that? It's just another feat you pulled out of your ass without giving any forethought?
I was obviously talking about a saber clash between Revan and Malak, in which Revan struck him down.

Now before you come and say that Malak sucked in Light Saber Combat or something like that, I must tell you that Drew intended Malak to a be skilled swordsman. And ask Drew, if you doubt me!

Originally posted by Advent
Which means little to jack shit. We've seen cases where someone who is much, much more stronger in the Force is incapable of defeating an opponent in lightsaber combat.
Revan was indeed a skilled swordsman as well. However since information regarding his Light Saber skills is not sufficient, so I have not yet given my opinion on Revan vs Maul in pure Saber Combat scenario. But remember that Revan have indeed killed some skilled swordsmen in his age.

Originally posted by Advent
Big f'in deal. It hardly matters when dealing against another prodigious being.
It does matters when dealing against another prodigious being because it makes it clear for us that both of these men were skilled warriors.

Originally posted by Advent
Maul can see the near future too, what's your point? Revan's precognitive abilities aren't infallible, insomuch as he canonically got caught twice in attacks.
I know that Revan's precognitive abilities are not infallible but this does not means that his precognitive abilities were not exceptional. When he faced Yusanis, his precognitive abilities were put to an ultimate test in which Revan prevailed.

Regarding Revan getting caught twice in attacks, here are the reasons:

Case 1: Jedi Strike Team vs Revan

Revan's attention was fully diverted by those Jedi who came to fight him and Malak was not even present on the Revan's flagship. Now in such a scenario, how would you expect from Revan to concentrate on other threats as well?

Thus Revan was thinking about dealing with the threat that had already cornered him and it was the most viable thing to do at that point.

Case 2: Revan vs Malak on Leviathan

Revan became emotionally disturbed by the revelation and it limited his focus, so he could not properly concentrate on Malak's moves and lost. However in the later duel, Revan was fully familiar with all the realities and accepted them and fought with clear mind and defeated the Dark Lord.

Thus in both these cases, there was a specific reason that led Revan to fail. In this fight however, Revan has no such issues to deal with and he will fight with clear mind.

Originally posted by Advent
As was Anoon Bondara, who was capable of picking up boulders with ease as a padawan, and was described by the omniscient narrator as "living in the Force".
And if Anoon Bondara failed to perform well against Maul, does this logic applies to Revan too, who has proved on more then several occasions that he can deal with any kind of threat?

Originally posted by Advent
Right. "Is believed"? By who? A crack whore with a bum leg? Give me the quote and source, now. Not that it matters, as just because one is believed doesn't mean one actually is.

And even if he is, what does that even mean in the context of this fight? Again, I must bring up Anoon Bondara, who's technical prowess was unmatched during his era. Which speaks volumes.
Remember that I used word "believed" and some sources do indicate that Revan used Jar Kai.

However if you want to see such sources then here are some:

Link 1: Click!
Link 2: Click!

And also in the KOTOR II game, the vision of Revan was shown using Jar Kai combat style.

A concept art of Revan is also shown using Jar Kai style.

No Idea, I have been offline for a long time unless the thread I maked to get a status on the recent development in the expanded Universe. (mara dead, Jacen becomes a sithlord etc.)

Originally posted by Utrigita
What is you reasons for saying Maul would win Advent?

I have none, considering I never said he would win. Quote me for truth if you believe otherwise.



Which was a statement designed to counter an attempted point made by a Revan supporter. It's not to suggest that Maul wins, merely like I said to Sexy, to show that he'll "need more proof than that" to make a viable case.

Anyways, are you done making incorrect inferences yet? Or do you still have more up that big ass of yours?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
From your point of view, can you tell me that how Revan killed those monsters?

No, because if it wasn't clear enough before, the circumstances are unknown. Ergo, it's speculation to say that he killed them via lightsaber or similar weapon. One could've used a grenade (you find two different types of grenades in the area, to my (perfect) recollection), or made indirect use of the Force.

Nothing is absolute, so don't try to act like it is.



Appeal to authority, logical fallacy.

I asked you to prove up citing canon sources, not third party websites. A pornographic website says that if I get my boyfriend pill X his dong will grow to massive sizes for life, is it true because the advertisement said it? No.

Though, I will say it's comedy at its finest when one of your own sources suggests they are not completely immune:

"Regardless, terentatek were virtually immune to effects of the Force."

QED.



But some do, so it's a logical fallacy to assume that they are entirely resistant to the Force.



Do you work for Bioware? No. Did you develop KotOR? No. Are you a complete and utter buffoon? Yes.

You don't dictate for what purpose they allowed such a power to be used, because you don't work for them! The fact of the matter is, that it was not a variable.

Which means that it isn't dependent upon the situation, as it can always be used no matter what. Akin to that of Bastila knowing Force lightning after her fall to the Dark side. It's never canonically stated, but it's not an alterable element.



Arguing from ignorance is never smart. See above, it doesn't need to.

And may I ask, where in the blue hell any of your sources are, huh? You're arguments are completely unsupported.



Except not because you're operating under a false premise. Even assuming arguendo that the direct Force attacks would be useless, indirect usage of the Force is certainly a viable option. Grenades, mines, etc. would also be possible.

Believing what you want to believe again?



Already addressed, see above.



Already addressed, see above.



Which is also largely irrelevant.

I didn't ask anything about Yusanis' skills, I asked you to prove that Revan "destroyed" him, as you so eloquently put it...

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
He destroyed Yusanis

...which you've yet to do.



Unsupported assumption. How many times do I have to state this?

The circumstances of the duel are unknown.

Ergo, it's a huge fallacy to assert that he defeated him in a saber battle. You spewing out scenarios doesn't change that fact.



Jumping the gun, much?

Anyways, it's entirely irrelevant if he's a "skilled swordsman", because there's no definitive proof that Revan used his lightsaber for more than two seconds (or at all, for that matter).

How about sticking to the point, and proving up on what I asked you to prove up on:

Originally posted by Advent
Uh. Who said it was a saber duel? Once again, your stating conclusions without any viable proof. What source supports that the duel between Malak and Revan was a lightsaber battle for longer than say, two seconds (or even if you're referring to Bandon, the same applies)?



No, you clearly intended for calling Revan a "prodigy" to be some sort of valid point. It's only relevant insomuch as it tells us he's good (known information), it doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things because Maul can be considered a prodigy as well.



Any Jedi who's worth a damn has the ability to see the near future. Untrained Force sensitive too (Anakin). It's hardly the end-all be-all.



You mean when he faced Yusanis and prevailed by unknown means, right?



I wasn't even referring to this, I was saying it in regards to their encounter on the Leviathan (whirlwind and stun). Nice job jumping the gun, Quickdraw.



Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Though Revan was also a bit emotionally disturbed after the revelation, so that might have limited his focus and Malak took advantage.

Inconsistency anyone? When it's in favor of your argument, you'll state it as fact, but when it's not, you'll give it a mere acknowledgment of being possible.

Anyways, jack shit suggests that it was due to the "revelation" he got caught in those two attacks. Prove up, all you have to go on is speculation without a strong leg to even hold it up. It's not definitive.



...By means unknown.



According to your unproven assumptions, and speculation.



I didn't suggest it did. Quote me for truth. The situation with me referencing Maul's battle with Anoon was to counter ridiculous assertions, such as "ZOMG, REVAN WAS THE BEST IN AN ORDER OF THOUSANDS!".

Actually, on second glance, your sentence doesn't even appear to be formulated in a way that can be properly read. Wanna' try that again?



Again, I ask: "is believed"? By who? A crack whore with a bum leg? Not that it matters, as just because one is believed doesn't mean one actually is.

You've failed to prove that he is "among the greatest practitioners of Jar'Kai", which was your assertion. So, I'll assume that it was nothing more than bullshit from a lying fanboy.

And again, your precious Wookiepedia fails you:

"With Revan as possible practitioner".

QED.



Appeal to authority, logical fallacy (so because Wookiepedia said it, it must be true?).



A vision similar to that like the one Luke has on Dagobah. Is Darth Vader now Luke Skywalker in disguise? Your points holds no water.



O RLY? I suppose then, Chewbacca must've looked like a Big Foot meets Santa Claus meets the Seven Dwarfs at one point or another.

http://img75.imageshack.us/img75/6466/chewieconceptartgr6.png

Yeah. Concept art is only a rough idea, and it doesn't indicate what you need to prove up on anyways. You're suppose to showing me some concrete evidence that Revan is "among the greatest practitioners of Jar'Kai", not some children's crappy art work.

Originally posted by Advent
You're arguments are completely unsupported.

****ing small grammar error and 15 minute edit limit. I meant "Your" (well, I actually forgot to add the rest of that sentence to the beginning, but we'll deal with it how it is).

Oh, but it doesn't change the fact your arguments are completely unsupported.

To be fair Advent, didn't one of the Qel Dromas have a vision of Revan standing over Malak, with his lightsaber lit? What do you think that means?

he defeated malak with mines and then pulled out his saber for no apparent reason

Edited, by the way.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
What do you think that means?

I already suggested that it makes it likely a lightsaber duel took place, but who said Malak was killed via a blade? And who says they fought with such a weapon for more than one pass?

No one. Which was my entire point.

Originally posted by Advent
I have none, considering I never said he would win. Quote me for truth if you believe otherwise.



Which was a statement designed to counter an attempted point made by a Revan supporter. It's not to suggest that Maul wins, merely like I said to Sexy, to show that he'll "need more proof than that" to make a viable case.

Anyways, are you done making incorrect inferences yet? Or do you still have more up that big ass of yours?


Sorry my badge just assumed that when you where speaking so much again Revan winning and grinding every argument moving openion that way, I assumed that you believed Maul would emerge victorious but obviously that isn't the case.

Oh and it was only a question not a argument ore anything so cool down...

Does anyone know. if you can read novels on SW.timeline.ru, because you can watch comics, but i cant figure out the novels, the reason i am asking, because i found another site(its a Russian site to), where you can read novels, altough it isn't as good as sw.timeline.ru.

Originally posted by Count Makashi
Does anyone know. if you can read novels on SW.timeline.ru, because you can watch comics, but i cant figure out the novels, the reason i am asking, because i found another site(its a Russian site to), where you can read novels, altough it isn't as good as sw.timeline.ru.

Don't waste your time and read something decent. Surely wikipedia can satisfy your thirst for Eu lore?

I meant, if anyone else wants it to, to read some novels, if they are interested, because i will(i read most of them, already, but i want to repeat it, to freshen my memory). I just said if someone knows how to fix the problem on sw.timeline.ru, i would rather read it there.

I don't actually care, not in an unfriendly way, I just used your comment to insult some poorly written EU material

Here is the link, to the site i found, where you can read novels.

http://sweu.ru/novels.htm

http://sweu.ru/children.htm

Funny how to make the distinction between children's and adult novels! To be quite honest with you, I wouldn't have noticed the difference between them!

Good find.

Originally posted by exanda kane
Funny how to make the distinction between children's and adult novels! To be quite honest with you, I wouldn't have noticed the difference between them!

I can read a little what it says, thats how i was able to find it.

I just want to say 2 think this this personage:



When Revan met Malak for the first time his training was not even complete and didn't even suspect who he was. Bastilla pretty much states this, she says that the 3 of them can beat Malak. Now, in case you failed to notice, months ago Revan was not even a jedi anymore, he was simply a soldier in the Republic Fleet. Yet, when he fought Malak in the Star Forge, for their second time, his memories and powers were back, and so obviously, he was much stronger then before.



Really, how do you expect for 2 sith lords to fight each other? Obviously Revan and Malak fought a lightsaber duel, which is supported by Quel Droma's vision... By the way, Revan fought has a lightsider against Malak, so obviously he would not use powers like force storm to beat him. Was aservant of the light, he would just use the force for defensive uses or to boost the power and speed of his lightsaber... Also, if Malak's powers were empored by the Star Forge, he would probably be very dificult to beat using only the force.

I also want to notice that, besides the fact his force powers were quite impressive, when Bastilla confronted him with the jedi strike team, he actually prepared himself to fight them all with his LIGHTSABER...

Originally posted by kamhal
When Revan met Malak for the first time his training was not even complete and didn't even suspect who he was.

Prove his precognitive abilities were still hidden to him at that point.



"Months ago"? By the time of the confrontation on the Leviathan, there's all of two places to go. He's hardly a mere "soldier" at that point, as he's already visited Dantooine.

As well, this proves that his ability to sense the near future improved how?



There's an inaccuracy, only Malak was a Sith Lord. Revan was a Jedi by that point.

And it's fallacious reasoning to assume that because they're "Sith Lords" (when, in fact, "they're" not, Malak is) they must've fought with lightsabers, anyways.



Right, but for how long and what happened is unknown.



That sentence cannot even be comprehended. Would you care to go back to the drawing boards? I sense it'll still be just as idiotic, though.



I suppose that's why Yoda was "a servant of the light", yet still used an offensive ability on Darth Sidious. The point is moot when I tell you that there's numerous occasions where Jedi resort to using the Force in an aggressive manner.



I didn't say he only used the Force, for all we know, they dueled for x amount of time before having one pass of blades. Like I said: it's unknown.

Simply because you and the rest of the NRFA (National Revan Fanboy Association) like to argue from your personal beliefs (logical fallacy, mind you) doesn't mean I'm wrong.



To say that "ZOMG, BECAUSE HE USED A LIGHTSABER IN SCENARIO X, HE USED IT IN SCENARIO Y" is an unsound assumption, not to mention ridiculous.

One accounts for the rest? Uh. In what realm does this logic pass for acceptable?

Originally posted by Advent
Prove his precognitive abilities were still hidden to him at that point.



"Months ago"? By the time of the confrontation on the Leviathan, there's all of two places to go. He's hardly a mere "soldier" at that point, as he's already visited Dantooine.

As well, this proves that his ability to sense the near future improved how?



There's an inaccuracy, only Malak was a Sith Lord. Revan was a Jedi by that point.

And it's fallacious reasoning to assume that because they're "Sith Lords" (when, in fact, "they're" not, Malak is) they must've fought with lightsabers, anyways.



Right, but for how long and what happened is unknown.



That sentence cannot even be comprehended. Would you care to go back to the drawing boards? I sense it'll still be just as idiotic, though.



I suppose that's why Yoda was "a servant of the light", yet still used an offensive ability on Darth Sidious. The point is moot when I tell you that there's numerous occasions where Jedi resort to using the Force in an aggressive manner.



I didn't say he only used the Force, for all we know, they dueled for x amount of time before having one pass of blades. Like I said: it's unknown.

Simply because you and the rest of the NRFA (National Revan Fanboy Association) like to argue from your personal beliefs (logical fallacy, mind you) doesn't mean I'm wrong.



To say that "ZOMG, BECAUSE HE USED A LIGHTSABER IN SCENARIO X, HE USED IT IN SCENARIO Y" is an unsound assumption, not to mention ridiculous.

One accounts for the rest? Uh. In what realm does this logic pass for acceptable?


PWNED

A vision similar to that like the one Luke has on Dagobah. Is Darth Vader now Luke Skywalker in disguise? Your points holds no water.


Except The Exiles battles in Ludo Kressh's tomb were based on her direct memories of the situation/combatant, meaning that the Revan you face in the game who displays (on an in-game level) mastery of Jar Kai, is given such a skill with the style because thats what the Exile witnessed of Revan during the Mando Wars.

Originally posted by Advent
No, because if it wasn't clear enough before, the circumstances are unknown. Ergo, it's speculation to say that he killed them via lightsaber or similar weapon. One could've used a grenade (you find two different types of grenades in the area, to my (perfect) recollection), or made indirect use of the Force.
Those two grenades were mean't to be used on that Acid Pool. And none of those grenades were powerful enough to kill or even seriously injure those two monsters. So once again, Revan had to resort to the use of Melee weapons against them.

However Revan could use the Force to augment his strength or stamina but he was also a skilled swordsman. And Revan himself said that he killed those monsters easily, which is a feat to be acknowledged. Many people failed to kill those monsters in past several decades and and it shows that how skilled Revan was.

Originally posted by Advent
Nothing is absolute, so don't try to act like it is.
We still can make a logical deduction based on the analysis of the situation in the Tomb of Naga Sadow.

Originally posted by Advent
Appeal to authority, logical fallacy.

I asked you to prove up citing canon sources, not third party websites.

Though, I will say it's comedy at its finest when one of your own sources suggests they are not completely immune:

"Regardless, terentatek were virtually immune to effects of the Force."

QED.
In the comic: "Shadows and Light", the Jedi always use melee weapons against the Terentatek beasts. Why don't they use Force on these monsters, if these monsters are not fully immune to Force attacks?

Originally posted by Advent
A pornographic website says that if I get my boyfriend pill X his dong will grow to massive sizes for life, is it true because the advertisement said it? No.
Now this is some naughty and lovely explanation from a girl! hehehe! Thanks for the insight!

Originally posted by Advent
But some do, so it's a logical fallacy to assume that they are entirely resistant to the Force.
Answer the above question!

Originally posted by Advent
Do you work for Bioware? No. Did you develop KotOR? No. Are you a complete and utter buffoon? Yes.

You don't dictate for what purpose they allowed such a power to be used, because you don't work for them! The fact of the matter is, that it was not a variable.
You Force Stun them during the gameplay, right? Now our actions in the gameplay are not canon.

Originally posted by Advent
Which means that it isn't dependent upon the situation, as it can always be used no matter what. Akin to that of Bastila knowing Force lightning after her fall to the Dark side. It's never canonically stated, but it's not an alterable element.
Do you see a Jedi Force Stunning those monsters in a cutscene? No!

Now how can you say for sure that Revan Force Stunned them first and then destroyed them? No you can't!

And if Bioware allowed one Force Power to work on those monsters during gameplay, it does not makes it a canon thing unless they show you a Jedi Force Stunning those monsters in a cutscene.

Originally posted by Advent
Arguing from ignorance is never smart. See above, it doesn't need to.

And may I ask, where in the blue hell any of your sources are, huh? You're arguments are completely unsupported.
If all of the sources that I have mentioned are lying then can you show me a reliable source that proves your argument that some Force attacks can work on Terentatek beasts, apart from that gameplay bullshit?

Originally posted by Advent
Except not because you're operating under a false premise. Even assuming arguendo that the direct Force attacks would be useless, indirect usage of the Force is certainly a viable option. Grenades, mines, etc. would also be possible.
Indirect use of Force in terms of augmenting the strength or stamina is a possibility that I will never deny.

But use of Grenades and Mines is an absurd thing. Those Sith Masters do not allow people to carry powerful explosives and mines in to that Tomb of Naga Sadow to easily accomplish the Sith Trials.

Originally posted by Advent
Believing what you want to believe again?
See the above explanation!

Originally posted by Advent
Already addressed, see above.
Not yet!

Originally posted by Advent
Already addressed, see above.
Not yet!

Originally posted by Advent
Which is also largely irrelevant.

I didn't ask anything about Yusanis' skills, I asked you to prove that Revan "destroyed" him, as you so eloquently put it...
What else Revan did to Yusanis? Let him go?

Originally posted by Advent
...which you've yet to do.
Check the second source for explanation.

Originally posted by Advent
Unsupported assumption. How many times do I have to state this?

The circumstances of the duel are unknown.

Ergo, it's a huge fallacy to assert that he defeated him in a saber battle. You spewing out scenarios doesn't change that fact.
What does the vision of Duron Qel Droma shows you? Was Revan posing with that Light Saber?

Originally posted by Advent
Jumping the gun, much?

Anyways, it's entirely irrelevant if he's a "skilled swordsman", because there's no definitive proof that Revan used his lightsaber for more than two seconds (or at all, for that matter).

How about sticking to the point, and proving up on what I asked you to prove up on:
How can you say for sure that the Light Saber battle between Revan and Malak lasted only for two seconds?

Originally posted by Advent
No, you clearly intended for calling Revan a "prodigy" to be some sort of valid point. It's only relevant insomuch as it tells us he's good (known information), it doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things because Maul can be considered a prodigy as well.
Revan was at-least declared to be a Prodigy by a Jedi Master. When was Maul declared to be a prodigy in a similar manner and by whom?

Originally posted by Advent
Any Jedi who's worth a damn has the ability to see the near future. Untrained Force sensitive too (Anakin). It's hardly the end-all be-all.
OK! Lets drop this issue.

Originally posted by Advent
You mean when he faced Yusanis and prevailed by unknown means, right?
I made a logical deduction based on the fact that Yusanis had exceptional precognitive skills. Now to beat a person like that, a Jedi will had to anticipate his every move and then counter them effectively. And to achieve this, that Jedi must possess exceptional precognitive abilities.

Originally posted by Advent
I wasn't even referring to this, I was saying it in regards to their encounter on the Leviathan (whirlwind and stun). Nice job jumping the gun, Quickdraw.
Alright!

But there are two reasons for that defeat:

A) Being emotionally disturbed that limited his focus.

B) Limited training and knowledge. Although Revan was very strong and experienced, he did not remembered all the knowledge that he learned before the betrayal. Malak however knew a lot about the Sith/Jedi techniques and also had vast experience at his disposal because he never forgot anything. And the training from the Jedi Council in Dantooine proved not to be enough to stop him.

Originally posted by Advent
Inconsistency anyone? When it's in favor of your argument, you'll state it as fact, but when it's not, you'll give it a mere acknowledgment of being possible.
I mentioned that thought for the first time in any debate, so initially I stated it as a possibility. And since some others seem to acknowledge it, so I can mention it with more confidence now.

Originally posted by Advent
Anyways, jack shit suggests that it was due to the "revelation" he got caught in those two attacks. Prove up, all you have to go on is speculation without a strong leg to even hold it up. It's not definitive.
What would you expect from a person who thinks that he is all good and then suddenly he is exposed to a terrible truth that he was actually a villian who is responsible for murder of millions? Will he not get emotionally disturbed?

And stop asking for definite proof in all the cases on the subject of Revan. There is a thing known as "logical deduction" and we can make them through observations and analysis.

Originally posted by Advent
...By means unknown.
He did not used Thermal Detonators, Grenades and Mines to defeat him however!

Originally posted by Advent
According to your unproven assumptions, and speculation.
According to the logical deductions that seem to be true. As I have explained above.

Originally posted by Advent
I didn't suggest it did. Quote me for truth. The situation with me referencing Maul's battle with Anoon was to counter ridiculous assertions, such as "ZOMG, REVAN WAS THE BEST IN AN ORDER OF THOUSANDS!".
Revan was possibly the best in an age, where we have seen some formidable Jedi and Sith Warriors. If such type of warriors have existed in the time of Anoon Bondara and he was better then them, then you have a point and if not, then you don't.

Originally posted by Advent
Actually, on second glance, your sentence doesn't even appear to be formulated in a way that can be properly read. Wanna' try that again?
My point was that Revan has shown us that he faced many kinds of hard challenges and he prevailed in them all, which speaks highly about his skills. He was far more successful then Maul.

Originally posted by Advent
Again, I ask: "is believed"? By who? A crack whore with a bum leg? Not that it matters, as just because one is believed doesn't mean one actually is.
The Jedi Exile remembered Revan to be a user of Jar Kai. ACStyles have mentioned this already.

Originally posted by Advent
You've failed to prove that he is "among the greatest practitioners of Jar'Kai", which was your assertion. So, I'll assume that it was nothing more than bullshit from a lying fanboy.
Revan was a skilled swordsman. And according to Exile, he mastered Jar Kai.

Originally posted by Advent
And again, your precious Wookiepedia fails you:

"With Revan as possible practitioner".

QED.
They are being cautious but they never said that Revan was not a practitioner of Jar Kai.

Originally posted by Advent
Appeal to authority, logical fallacy (so because Wookiepedia said it, it must be true?).
Most of the information in wookieepedia is correct apart from a few errors or mistakes or assumptions.

Originally posted by Advent
A vision similar to that like the one Luke has on Dagobah. Is Darth Vader now Luke Skywalker in disguise? Your points holds no water.
Exile's vision was a different one and in her vision, Revan used Jar Kai.

Originally posted by Advent
O RLY? I suppose then, Chewbacca must've looked like a Big Foot meets Santa Claus meets the Seven Dwarfs at one point or another.

http://img75.imageshack.us/img75/6466/chewieconceptartgr6.png
Am I supposed to laugh in this case?

Originally posted by Advent
Yeah. Concept art is only a rough idea, and it doesn't indicate what you need to prove up on anyways. You're suppose to showing me some concrete evidence that Revan is "among the greatest practitioners of Jar'Kai", not some children's crappy art work.
That concept art is from a comic and is not developed by a fan.

...You're completely missing the point. You don't have the evidence or logical reduction required to prove that Revan can beat Maul in a lightsaber duel. Running around proclaiming that "Revan is a prodigy!!11!" or "Revan is a master of Jar Kai!!1!" or otherwise spouting about circumstances in which details aren't concrete (lmao, citing Revan himself as a source?) only proves that you're a gigantic fanboy, not that Revan has, in any way, dominance over Maul.

Based on sheer evidence alone, a better case can be made for Maul.

Edit: I'd also like the people who voted for 'Revan pwns!' to come out of the woodwork and explain their logic for doing so.

Originally posted by Gideon
...You're completely missing the point. You don't have the evidence or logical reduction required to prove that Revan can beat Maul in a lightsaber duel.
You know that what is funny over here?

I have yet not given any conclusion that either Revan can beat Maul or Maul and beat Revan in pure Saber Combat.

Even Advent have yet to prove that Maul can beat Revan in Saber Combat.

Originally posted by Gideon
Running around proclaiming that "Revan is a prodigy!!11!"
Master Vandar after the battle of Star Forge declared Revan to be a Prodigy. I am not proclaiming anything here but stating a fact.

Originally posted by Gideon
or "Revan is a master of Jar Kai!!1!"
In KOTOR II, Revan was shown using Jar Kai Combat style.

Originally posted by Gideon
or otherwise spouting about circumstances in which details aren't concrete (lmao, citing Revan himself as a source?) only proves that you're a gigantic fanboy, not that Revan has, in any way, dominance over Maul.
Those circumstances show that Revan was a skilled warrior and not some lame @ss Jedi. And what is so wrong about citing Revan's own claims or judgment of scenarios? People do the same with Sidious, Mace Dooku or any character that they like.

And it is 100% true that Revan was far more successful then Maul in his life.

Calling me a fanboy for defending Revan will not help. It is true that he is among my favorite characters and it is a matter of my personal preference, if I choose to defend him in a particular thread. You have the same liberty in defending any character you want. No one is stopping you.

Originally posted by Gideon
Based on sheer evidence alone, a better case can be made for Maul.
Try it.

Originally posted by Gideon
Edit: I'd also like the people who voted for 'Revan pwns!' to come out of the woodwork and explain their logic for doing so.
It is a matter of their personal preferences. No one can demand explanations from them, unless they willingly do so, as two persons have even voted for Maul to win, but we are not demanding explanations from those persons to know why they have voted for Maul. Stick to your own point.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Even Advent have yet to prove that Maul can beat Revan in Saber Combat.

Originally posted by Advent
I have none, considering I never said he would win. Quote me for truth if you believe otherwise.

Anyways, are you done making incorrect inferences yet? Or do you still have more up that big ass of yours?

Dumbass.

Originally posted by Advent
Dumbass.
And calling me dumbass will solve your own self developed issues with me?

OK! I admit that you are also not giving any conclusion in this regard, happy?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
And calling me dumbass will solve your own self developed issues with me?

What in the blue hell are you talking about? I don't have any "issues" with you. If you're referring to the argument, your's is weak. Which I will show shortly, once I take a break from my, y'know, life.

Because they're too expensive for poor country folk like me.

Thats what you sayed huh? you dont know me you dont know my family's financial problems and I am from the South. North Carolina to be exact so maby YOU might want to get YOU'RE facts straight Advent...

Oh yea by the way our little argument if you can even call it one is OVER.

Considering Revan himself beat Mandalore the Ultimate in a straight out fight, aswell as defeated Malak in combat, who I'd HIGHLY place above Maul in both terms of Force and saber skills. That and considering Maul would probably get cocky like he usually does, I'd expect Revan to manipulate that into giving him an edge.

Originally posted by Spartan ll
Considering Revan himself beat Mandalore the Ultimate in a straight out fight, aswell as defeated Malak in combat, who I'd HIGHLY place above Maul in both terms of Force and saber skills. That and considering Maul would probably get cocky like he usually does, I'd expect Revan to manipulate that into giving him an edge.

Prove that Malak is highly above Maul in Force abilities and lightsaber skills; Dooku isn't even "highly above" Maul in lightsaber skills.

Originally posted by Gideon
Prove that Malak is highly above Maul in Force abilities and lightsaber skills; Dooku isn't even "highly above" Maul in lightsaber skills. Considering Malak can use both force lightning(And don't use the Maul can resist lightning as seen when he defeated that witch lady'. Don't even begin to compare a witch's power to that of a Sith Lord's.) Force Drain, and Force Whirlwind, while all we've seen from Maul is Force enhanced jumps and sprints, I'd say that much is pretty covered. Malak also defeated Kavar, a famous Jedi Master Guardian and Weapons Master(Who mastered the Jar'Kai style and was highly revered by both the Mandalorians and the Jedi Order and was a member of that Jedi Council, if I remember correctly). I'd highly place that ahead of what Maul has done, besides killing an army of untrained criminals and barely holding off and cornering an old, tired Jedi Master who was way past his prime. That and like I said, Maul would more than likely get cocky, Revan would use that to his advantage and defeat him.

How is Dooku not above Maul in saber abilities? Last time I checked, Dooku was considered almost above Mace Windu himself in both Force and Saber skills by Yoda himself. Prove to me he IS above both Mace and Dooku in saber skills, please.

Originally posted by Spartan ll
Considering Malak can use both force lightning(And don't use the Maul can resist lightning as seen when he defeated that witch lady'. Don't even begin to compare a witch's power to that of a Sith Lord's.) Force Drain, and Force Whirlwind, while all we've seen from Maul is Force enhanced jumps and sprints, I'd say that much is pretty covered. Malak also defeated Kavar, a famous Jedi Master Guardian and Weapons Master(Who mastered the Jar'Kai style and was highly revered by both the Mandalorians and the Jedi Order and was a member of that Jedi Council, if I remember correctly). I'd highly place that ahead of what Maul has done, besides killing an army of untrained criminals and barely holding off and cornering an old, tired Jedi Master who was way past his prime. That and like I said, Maul would more than likely get cocky, Revan would use that to his advantage and defeat him.

How is Dooku not above Maul in saber abilities? Last time I checked, Dooku was considered almost above Mace Windu himself in both Force and Saber skills by Yoda himself. Prove to me he IS above both Mace and Dooku in saber skills, please.
Maul is also a Sith Lord, Buddy. Also, you can't quantify how powerful any of Malak's attacks were. Also, Maul's force enhanced sprints take him from next to an explosion to out of sight in "microseconds." Maul defeated Anoon Bondara, Kavar's superior.

We'll leave the first paragraph to Jollyjim; he can do a better job than I can.



Where did I say that Dooku wasn't above Maul in lightsaber abilities? I believe all I said was this:





...Last time I checked, Yoda said that Dooku was considered the Temple's "greatest student" by virtue of accumulated knowledge and experience in Dark Rendezvous. Where did he say that he was better than Mace in lightsaber skills and Force powers?



I didn't make the claim, so I don't have to prove anything. Instead of misinterpreting shit, take your time and read it.

Edit: I expected a hell of a lot better from you, Spartan. You used to fancy yourself as a skilled debater . What you posted now was pure shit. You've yet to prove that Malak is a more capable duelist than a guy who "pushed his lightsaber and Force-assisted abilities to their utmost", "one of the most dangerous Sith apprentices in history", and "the ultimate weapon".

Originally posted by jollyjim311
Maul is also a Sith Lord, Buddy. Also, you can't quantify how powerful any of Malak's attacks were. Also, Maul's force enhanced sprints take him from next to an explosion to out of sight in "microseconds." Maul defeated Anoon Bondara, Kavar's superior. Duh, really? This isn't about Maul being a Sith Lord or not, it's about his power and saber skills. Quote? How is Anoon Bondara Kavar's 'superior'? Last time I checked, he only trained padawans and younglings with sabers, while Kavar himself participated, and survived, the Great Sith War itself aswell as the Jedi Civil War.

Originally posted by Gideon
We'll leave the first paragraph to Jollyjim; he can do a better job than I can.

I appreciate the compliment, but you have to say it right after I post a half-assed clunky statement. Well, there was a reason for it's half-assedness, and that is that I must be off! I'll go about it more eloquently when I redo my response. Sound like a plan?

Originally posted by Gideon

Edit: I expected a hell of a lot better from you, Spartan. You used to fancy yourself as a skilled debater . What you posted now was pure shit. You've yet to prove that Malak is a more capable duelist than a guy who "pushed his lightsaber and Force-assisted abilities to their utmost", "one of the most dangerous Sith apprentices in history", and "the ultimate weapon". Fine. I don't have time nor patience to debate, so you win. I concede. Happy?

I haven't been here in awhile nor have I had the time to, unlike you an Advent, so excuse me for being past the times.

Originally posted by Gideon

You've yet to prove that Malak is a more capable duelist than a guy who "pushed his lightsaber and Force-assisted abilities to their utmost", "one of the most dangerous Sith apprentices in history", and "the ultimate weapon". I am interested, however, in where you got these quotes.

Originally posted by Spartan ll
I am interested, however, in where you got these quotes.

The Complete Visual Dictionary.

Originally posted by jollyjim311
Maul is also a Sith Lord, Buddy.
100% True and he is cool.

Originally posted by jollyjim311
Also, you can't quantify how powerful any of Malak's attacks were.
- He could kill or seriously injure a Jedi with a single strike from his Force Lightning.
- He could Force Choke a couple of Jedi simultaneously.
- He could Force Whirlwind a person as powerful as Revan.
- He could Force Stun several Jedi simultaneously.
- He could Drain the entire energies of a person (held in Stasis Form) with his Force Drain in a single attack.
- He was also adept at "Saber Throw" attacks and his "Saber Throw" hits were accurate and lethal.

Originally posted by jollyjim311
Also, Maul's force enhanced sprints take him from next to an explosion to out of sight in "microseconds."
Maul was one fast paced warrior. No one denies this.

Originally posted by jollyjim311
Maul defeated Anoon Bondara, Kavar's superior.
You will have to prove your claim first before outrightly declaring it to be a fact. Kavar was the most famous battle-master of his age and an elite swordsman.

anoon bondaras technical abilities were unparalleled in the golden age of saber dueling

as advent mentioned, he was capable of lifting boulders with ease as a padawan, and was stated to live in the force

he was heavily muscled, and a master of teras kasi

he >>> kavar

How about deducing from the fact we have an omniscient narrator telling us that Maul was "one of the deadliest Sith apprentices in history" at only age 22. He has defeated the greatest lightsaber wielder of the then Jedi Order (which included such Jedi like Yoda, Dooku, and Windu), was able to contend with and dominate a contest against Jinn and Kenobi, both who are formidable in their own right. All with less than twenty years of training.

You don't do any of that without being a prodigious being.



Reading comprehension is your friend.

I stated that he did such by "unknown means", which is absolutely true. I never asked about his foresight, you idiot. Ergo, your entire response was a huge red herring.



This a largely unsupported. Simply because you believe the revelation caused a hindrance does not mean it did. It's hardly acceptable to say that it did, because correlation does not imply causation.

That, coupled along with the fact you didn't have a strong leg to stand on to begin with, makes your assumption incorrect to state as truth.



This proves his precognitive abilities were still diminished how, exactly? You appear to be missing the entire point.



No one said he wouldn't, but does that necessarily mean it would impede on his concentration? No, because correlation does not imply causation. Ergo, your argument holds little water (there's enough in the glass for it to be a possibility, but hardly enough to state as being a definite cause).



A textbook example of a quasi intellectual. Do you think using big words makes you look any more intelligent, especially when you take into consideration you defy the main aspect of them in almost every argument (the logic)?

You've committed more fallacies, and made more unsupported assumptions in this thread alone than Takeru Kobayashi had hot dogs last year.



I said he did? Where? Try quoting me for truth instead of out of context.

And to continually disacknowledge the point that the circumstances of the fight are unknown doesn't change the fact that they are.



Making a mountain of assumptions without feasible logic and evidence behind them doesn't make anything true, son.



Uh, connect the dots. He lived in the "Prime of the Jedi" (which furthers the point), where we have accomplished duelists such as Yoda, Count Dooku, and Mace Windu. The Jedi of old don't hold a candle to that.

I don't make a point if I can't back it up. Unlike you.

And, if you'll read IOU's post:

Originally posted by IOU
well in terms of whos the better swordsman, id place my money on anoon

in virtually every source he appears in his skills with the saber are held in extremely high regard

for instance, from the cloak of deception:

"A Twi'lek, with slender head-tails and a heavily muscled upper body, his name was Anoon Bondara, a duelist of unparalleled skill. Qui-Gon engaged him in matches at every opportunity. For a match with Bondara, no matter how brief, was more instructive than twenty contests against lesser opponents."

from shadow hunter:

"At least she was not standing there alone. Behind her and slightly to one side was her mentor, Anoon Bondara. Master Bondara epitomized what Darsha hoped to become one day. The Twi'lek Jedi Master lived in the Force. Always still and complacent as a pool of unknown depth, he was nevertheless one of the best fighters in the order. His skill with a lightsaber was second to none. Darsha hoped that one day she might be able to exhibit a tenth of Anoon Bondara's adeptness."

from the power of the jedi sourcebook:

"darsha assant's teacher was the jedi master anoon bondara, a twi'lek jedi renowned for his skill with the lightsaber. to padawan darsha, of course, master bondara's prowess was unmatched."

anoon was also a practitioner of teras kasi, which would make him a far more dangerous opponent, given that hardly any jedi had any familiarity with the style whatsoever. from shadow hunter:

"The Jedi was obviously a master of the teras kasi fighting arts, as well, judging by the smooth way he parried and counterattacked."

and the power of the jedi sourcebook confirms that anoon was a master of teras kasi, not just a practitioner

being a lightsaber instructor, its also highly likely anoon was very proficient/had great knowledge, and perhaps even achieved mastery of multiple saber forms, or an extremely high mastery of his own, which is always a plus

so yes, clearly his technical abilities with a saber were virtually unmatched, and some of the best in the entire pt jedi order

It's apparent that Anoon was simply that damn good.



Except...none of it establishes a basis for claiming he would beat Maul due to the fact the conditions of the most of his battle are largely blank.



Repeating yourself ad nasuem really won't help.

Anyways, so was Qui-Gon Jinn, is he now "among the greatest"? Absolutely not. Simply because he was a practicioner of the form means exactly squat. We see Revan using a single blade on the Star Forge, and zilch indicates a mastery of Jar'Kai.



According to the Exile, he practices Jar'Kai. It's an unsound assumption to say that he "mastered" it. One could say that it was a short time period that Revan even used dual lightsabers (much like Exar Kun did). Jack shit suggests what you're saying.

If it does, PROVE. UP.



The point obviously flew over your head like Superman. It's the fact that one of your own sources says it's only "possible". I find it hard to believe one could be "among the greatest" of X if it's only possible that they used X.



...Which proves absolutely nothing in regards to your original assertion.



No, it's demonstrating the absurdity of your assertion. Concept art is not the final product, it does not prove that he's even a user of such a form (even if another point is in your favor, this point holds no water), nor that he's "among the greatest".

Prove your original assumption or drop the point.



Who do you think designed the picture I've provided? A kindergarten student? It's official concept art of Chewbacca, made during the production of ANH for George Lucas himself to consider. The evidence of which can be found in the Bonus Features of the OT DVD set, if you want to question it.

And finally Legend, let me conclude with telling you that you're a lying sack of steaming, stinking, grade-A monkey crap. Don't bother responding if I can expect another post of literally nothing but that.

I agree with Advent None of us can say anything about revans power because there is SIMPLY not enough Canon information to base our claims.

That simple.

Power? OR saber abilities..

Originally posted by Advent
I'm not denying that Revan killed Yusanis, what I'm arguing is that there's absolutely no proof to support the claim that he "destroyed" Yusanis (and clearly, in the context you were using it, you meant it as 'kicked his ass').

Evidence that he "destroyed" him has yet to surface from your side of the table (likely because you don't have any). Either put up or shut up.
I admit that we do not know the whole story of this fight but it has never been stated in any source that it was a hard fight for Revan. In fact, one of my sources claim that Revan killed Yusanis easily.

Originally posted by Advent
Appealling to authority is always going to a logical fallacy, no matter how many times you repeat it.
This shows your lack of interest in checking out the information of that source, but I will quote the lines for you:

This man was one of the most famous and feared of the Echani warriors who were active in the galaxy during the decades leading up to the Jedi Civil War. He was a decorated solider who was considered one of the greatest heroes of the Mandalorian Wars. Later, when Yusanis discovered that an Echani Senator had been killed by Darth Revan, he set out to confront the Sith Lord and bring him to justice. Despite his own skills and the special weapons of cortosis-weave that he used, Yusanis was quickly defeated by Darth Revan and forced to submit. Darth Revan held no compassion, and killed Yusanis in cold blood. It was later discovered that Yusanis was the father - figuratively and literally - of the Echani Handmaidens

Originally posted by Advent
It shows me that they most likely passed blades, which is something I've said myself. A better question would've been "what doesn't it show?". The answer to which is relatively simple and has been explained numerous times. It doesn't show that Revan killed Malak with a saber, nor does it show that they fought longer than two seconds.

If you believe otherwise, then I'd advise you to PROVE. UP. Something of which you've yet to do.
I do believe otherwise but I will speculate on it no further unless there is some official news about it. But the funny thing is that even you cannot prove that they just most likely passed blades or they never engaged in a Saber Duel. So your case is also weak.

Originally posted by Advent
Your ability to twist arguments are almost on par with your ability to spew bullshit.
I just posted my assumptions and you disagreed but even your counter-assumptions are no more reliable then mine. And the funny thing is that some of my assumptions are supported by some sources, so I am not pulling everything out from my @ss.

Originally posted by Advent
Quote me for truth, where have I ever said that "for sure" it lasted two seconds? Oh? Nowhere? It was something you pulled out of your ass?
ahahaha! this is getting more funny now!

Check this quote:

Originally posted by Advent
Yeah, I'm only using 2 seconds as a random amount of time tailored to suit my argument (within reason, of course)
You are also funny, Advent!

And that specific reason does not makes you sure about your point?

Originally posted by Advent
The point I'm trying to make with it is that while Duron's vision may suggest a saber duel ensued, it doesn't mean they did battle with said weapon for long, much less that Revan killed Malak with it.
I agree that we do not know for sure that how long that duel took place. But my point is that Revan indeed killed a skilled warrior with his blade.

Originally posted by Advent
How about deducing from the fact we have an omniscient narrator telling us that Maul was "one of the deadliest Sith apprentices in history" at only age 22. He has defeated the greatest lightsaber wielder of the then Jedi Order (which included such Jedi like Yoda, Dooku, and Windu), was able to contend with and dominate a contest against Jinn and Kenobi, both who are formidable in their own right. All with less than twenty years of training.
Do you think that Anoon was more skilled swordsman then Yoda, Dooku and Windu or even compared to them in that regard?

And Kenobi was a Padawan at that time when fought against the Maul and he alone managed to give him a hard fight and Maul was forced to use the Force to over-power him. So if an enraged Padawan can give Maul a decent fight in a Saber Duel, Revan can surely do better.

Originally posted by Advent
You don't do any of that without being a prodigious being.
I agree that Maul was a skilled warrior but an enraged Padawan was able to almost beat him in a Saber Duel.

Originally posted by Advent
Reading comprehension is your friend.

I stated that he did such by "unknown means", which is absolutely true. I never asked about his foresight, you idiot. Ergo, your entire response was a huge red herring.
I have already mentioned the information about this fight from a source in the above post. However I agree that we do not know the whole story about the fight.

Originally posted by Advent
This a largely unsupported. Simply because you believe the revelation caused a hindrance does not mean it did. It's hardly acceptable to say that it did, because correlation does not imply causation.
An emotionally disturbed Jedi or a Jedi without a clear mind will never fight very well because such things will limit his focus. Anakin is a clear example of this.

Originally posted by Advent
That, coupled along with the fact you didn't have a strong leg to stand on to begin with, makes your assumption incorrect to state as truth.
It is still a good logical deduction.

Originally posted by Advent
This proves his precognitive abilities were still diminished how, exactly? You appear to be missing the entire point.
His precognitive abilities were there but he fought with limited focus due to an obvious reason that I have mentioned before.

Originally posted by Advent
No one said he wouldn't, but does that necessarily mean it would impede on his concentration? No, because correlation does not imply causation. Ergo, your argument holds little water (there's enough in the glass for it to be a possibility, but hardly enough to state as being a definite cause).
You yourself have admitted that such emotions will limit his concentration and focus. And this is what my point is and when this happens, a Jedi no matter how powerful can fail because he can do more mistakes in such a state. Anakin's case again rings some bells.

Originally posted by Advent
A textbook example of a quasi intellectual. Do you think using big words makes you look any more intelligent, especially when you take into consideration you defy the main aspect of them in almost every argument (the logic)?

You've committed more fallacies, and made more unsupported assumptions in this thread alone than Takeru Kobayashi had hot dogs last year.
And your assumptions are better then mine? At-least some of my assumptions are supported by some 3rd party sources.

Originally posted by Advent
I said he did? Where? Try quoting me for truth instead of out of context.

And to continually disacknowledge the point that the circumstances of the fight are unknown doesn't change the fact that they are.
I agree with your assertion.

Originally posted by Advent
Making a mountain of assumptions without feasible logic and evidence behind them doesn't make anything true, son.
Fine!

I have started to show some flexibility already.

Originally posted by Advent
Uh, connect the dots. He lived in the "Prime of the Jedi" (which furthers the point), where we have accomplished duelists such as Yoda, Count Dooku, and Mace Windu. The Jedi of old don't hold a candle to that.
A few names does not makes PT period to be the strongest in the Jedi Order history because most of the Jedi in that period were not battle-hardened and many were practitioners of a Niman Form and they got killed in the major battles. However being the "Prime of Jedi" can refer to other factors as well like education, reformed teachings, expansion of Jedi infrastructure etc.

And you can't say for sure that their were no duelists in the old times, who could match the likes of Yoda, Dooku and Mace in a Saber Duel.

Originally posted by Advent
I don't make a point if I can't back it up. Unlike you.
Really? You just did above.

Originally posted by Advent
And, if you'll read IOU's post:
That was an interesting thought by him but I need more evidence that Anoon was > Yoda, Mace and Dooku in Saber Skills.

Originally posted by Advent
It's apparent that Anoon was simply that damn good.
He would be good, specially after all that verbal fellating. But TPM Kenobi showed that Maul was not unstoppable.

Originally posted by Advent
Except...none of it establishes a basis for claiming he would beat Maul due to the fact the conditions of the most of his battle are largely blank.
And Maul's case has been made weaker by TPM Kenobi.

Originally posted by Advent
Repeating yourself ad nasuem really won't help.

Anyways, so was Qui-Gon Jinn, is he now "among the greatest"? Absolutely not. Simply because he was a practicioner of the form means exactly squat. We see Revan using a single blade on the Star Forge, and zilch indicates a mastery of Jar'Kai.
Revan might not have used Jar Kai on Star Forge, but he is possibly among the greatest practitioners of that Form.

Originally posted by Advent
According to the Exile, he practices Jar'Kai. It's an unsound assumption to say that he "mastered" it. One could say that it was a short time period that Revan even used dual lightsabers (much like Exar Kun did). Jack shit suggests what you're saying.

If it does, PROVE. UP.

There was no such thing mentioned as "he practised Jar Kai". He was shown using Jar Kai style and that's it. But since he was a skilled swordsman, so it is assumed that he mastered that Form. However we do not know that for how long, Revan used that Form.

Originally posted by Advent
The point obviously flew over your head like Superman. It's the fact that one of your own sources says it's only "possible". I find it hard to believe one could be "among the greatest" of X if it's only possible that they used X.
I will agree with the context of "possibility".

Originally posted by Advent
...Which proves absolutely nothing in regards to your original assertion.
My original assertion is that Revan is believed to be among the greatest "practitioners" of Jar Kai.

Originally posted by Advent
No, it's demonstrating the absurdity of your assertion. Concept art is not the final product, it does not prove that he's even a user of such a form (even if another point is in your favor, this point holds no water), nor that he's "among the greatest".

Prove your original assumption or drop the point.
That Concept Art is compatible with what was shown in KOTOR II. So a source is backing it up.

Originally posted by Advent
Who do you think designed the picture I've provided? A kindergarten student? It's official concept art of Chewbacca, made during the production of ANH for George Lucas himself to consider. The evidence of which can be found in the Bonus Features of the OT DVD set, if you want to question it.
The point is that the concept art of Revan has not yet been proven false by any source and is actually backed by one.

Originally posted by Advent
And finally Legend, let me conclude with telling you that you're a lying sack of steaming, stinking, grade-A monkey crap. Don't bother responding if I can expect another post of literally nothing but that.
Advent, learn to remain civil or shall I assume that your parents never taught you any manners? You are too quick to judge people and this is not good.

And move on, girl! This is just a debate on a fiction issue.

I am not a bad person or a professional liar in real life. If by any chance we meet in the real life, you will be amazed by my real attitude and personality. You can test me on a normal chat, if you want some clue.

I just want to say 2 things (i had to go, exams are exams ):



This is SO true, and if anyone doubt it i advise him to play kotorII and talk with HK-47- He pretty much shows how to hunt and kill jedis, and 1of the things he refers is that a jedi connection to the force rely depends on their mind. So, you affect it, their connection with the force will also be affected. Anyway, just dialogue with him, he says some things rather interestings. By the way, don't forget that it was Revan who created and programed this "jedi killer".

Second:

After Revan passed the test, Uthar congratulates him, which he replies:

"I wouln't say I exerted myself getting this" note: "this" was the sith lightsaber. Ok, you can say Revan was talking big but Uthar replies;
"Perhaps not, to someone of your talent"

Notice that the used word was taleent, not power, why? Because he need more then force power to beat the tentareks, he need his lightsaber. So, even Uthat admites that, with his lightsaber, Revan was a gifted jedi. By the way, one should notice that after what is suppose to be a tough challenge, Revan still beats the hell of Uthat and Yuthura together and still makes through several siths to get of that place.

By the way, from Canderous to you: "We had never met one like you before, and never since"...

Originally posted by kamhal
After Revan passed the test, Uthar congratulates him, which he replies:

"I wouln't say I exerted myself getting this" note: "this" was the sith lightsaber. Ok, you can say Revan was talking big but Uthar replies;
"Perhaps not, to someone of your talent"

Notice that the used word was taleent, not power, why? Because he need more then force power to beat the tentareks, he need his lightsaber. So, even Uthat admites that, with his lightsaber, Revan was a gifted jedi. By the way, one should notice that after what is suppose to be a tough challenge, Revan still beats the hell of Uthat and Yuthura together and still makes through several siths to get of that place.

OMG !
How many pointless stuff can a single person but into one single post ?

The dialog and the reaction to it is dependant on the choice of the player. As is the reaction of Uthar. So what do you want to do here ? Neither did Revan canonically say that line nor did Uthar reply with the other. Urm. And that also pretty much destroys that assumptions you were drawing from that quote.

Aside of that Revan canonically redeemed Yuthura. So no "beating the hell out of them".



That would have what effect on that debate ? Did Canderous meet Maul ?

Really. Maul did almost manage to destroy Sidious in direct confrontation. Not to mention that he tooled the likes of Anoon Bondara and Qui-Gon Jinn (even when he was fighting against him and Kenobi). I don't see where Revan would "own" him if he's able to take him down in a lightsaber fight at all.

So, to you, canonly Revan didn't say a think since you had more then 1 option from dialogue... And Revad DID beat yuthura, in fact, it's only after beat her that you can redeem her...

By the, but who the hell was Bondara? What did he do? People say that he MIGHT have been a battlemaster but, lol, hadn't anakin beat a battlemaster with 1 hand while grabing other jedi's neck? And about qui-gon, well, i think it's quite common knowledge that, even if he was a great jedi, his power and skill were not high close to guys like windu, yoda, anakin, dooku, etc. Even obi-wan surpassed him. Also, the fact that an simple enraged padwaan like obi-wan, who was probably weaker then the padawan anakin who was easily beat by dooku or weaker then the jedi knight obi-wan who easily lost to dooku, isn't very good to help maul's side.

I am not saying he was bad, because he was damn good, but if an enraged padawan cut one of his lightsabers like that then i doubt maul would be stronger, for example, then a jedi master obi-wan, much stronger after 3 years of the clone wars.

Power = Force + Saber

Originally posted by kamhal
So, to you, canonly Revan didn't say a think since you had more then 1 option from dialogue... And Revad DID beat yuthura, in fact, it's only after beat her that you can redeem her...

By the, but who the hell was Bondara? What did he do? People say that he MIGHT have been a battlemaster but, lol, hadn't anakin beat a battlemaster with 1 hand while grabing other jedi's neck? And about qui-gon, well, i think it's quite common knowledge that, even if he was a great jedi, his power and skill were not high close to guys like windu, yoda, anakin, dooku, etc. Even obi-wan surpassed him. Also, the fact that an simple enraged padwaan like obi-wan, who was probably weaker then the padawan anakin who was easily beat by dooku or weaker then the jedi knight obi-wan who easily lost to dooku, isn't very good to help maul's side.

I am not saying he was bad, because he was damn good, but if an enraged padawan cut one of his lightsabers like that then i doubt maul would be stronger, for example, then a jedi master obi-wan, much stronger after 3 years of the clone wars.

Poor reasoning. Bondara's skill /= Cin Drallig's. Maul tooled the foremost lightsaber duelist at the "prime of the Jedi". I'd say that in itself gives him skills above Revan. Bondara would have a field day with KOTOR Jedi.

And OB1 beat Maul...does that mean that he's above Maul, Revan and Anoon? No, the best doesn't always win...and you can have all the skill you want, but you wont be effective unless you know how to utilize it. Thats why Anoon had the most skill with a saber, but was only hailed as one of the best duelists.

But I do agree with you that Maul has most likely (from what we know of Revan) has more technical talent than Revan.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
And OB1 beat Maul...does that mean that he's above Maul, Revan and Anoon? No, the best doesn't always win...and you can have all the skill you want, but you wont be effective unless you know how to utilize it. Thats why Anoon had the most skill with a saber, but was only hailed as one of the best duelists.

But I do agree with you that Maul has most likely (from what we know of Revan) has more technical talent than Revan.

Kenobi "won" in a far from traditional sense of the term. Basically, Maul ended up dead, Kenobi ended up alive, and that's as far as it goes. Maul dominated the fight, leading Kenobi and Qui Gon to the pit. He beat Qui Gon's superior in thirty seconds. Maul was hurt and was fighting less effectively than he could have to provide more of a challenge. To Obi Wan's credit he did manage to very briefly challenge Maul, which, despite the small time frame in which he did so, is a most impressive feat (and a titanic one for a Padawan).

Qui Gon was on par with Mace, the most powerful person Kenobi had seen fight (which I think includes people like Plo Koon), and (one of?) the best duelist(s) a Jedi Battle Master had seen in 400 years.

Anoon Bondara, who was the best duelist his apprentice had ever seen (when we know that his apprentice had seen Yoda fight), a master of teras kasi, gave Qui Gon regular beatings, and usually did it quick. His skills were the best in the order, and had uncanny adeptness.

Maul crushed Anoon into the floor.

Darth Sidious, the most powerful Sith Lord ever, who defeated three of the best swordsman ever in mere seconds, was almost defeated by Maul in a lightsaber battle when Maul used his rage (and after that I believe he mastered his use of that Rage).

All it will take is for Maul to use his speed and better reactions to close whatever distance there is between himself and the masked man of mystery, putting constant pressure on Revan with the weapon he designed after Exar Kun's own, which he "mastered." Revans Force attacks will be completely disrupted, or he will just be torn through if he tries any offensive maneuvers with the Force.

With all due respect to this Maul fellatio and anti Revan crap, Maul won't be owning Revan at anything. There is more information on Maul's abilities with a saber, than Revan, but that in no gives him a victory And this is just talking about saber combat, Maul stands no chance in a force battle.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
With all due respect to this Maul fellatio and anti Revan crap, Maul won't be owning Revan at anything. There is more information on Maul's abilities with a saber, than Revan, but that in no gives him a victory And this is just talking about saber combat, Maul stands no chance in a force battle.

It's mostly facts, quoting, or paraphrasing, I wouldn't really consider that to be over the top, but to each his own. Also, I said nothing "Anti-Revan." However, if it helps, I will mention that he is a very powerful warrior and that Maul's victory with a saber will be more than Maul igniting his blades and Reavn instantly vaporizing. It will be a battle.

As far as a force fight, Kreia's hyperbole is the only thing putting Revan above Maul in raw power. As far as techniques we know Revan has scores, but I would imagine that Maul does also, seeing as how he was Sidious apprentice for around twenty-ish years. This is an area where we don't have much knowledge of Maul. However, it is agreed that Revan would most likely beat Maul, handily even, in a purely force battle.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
With all due respect to this Maul fellatio and anti Revan crap, Maul won't be owning Revan at anything. There is more information on Maul's abilities with a saber, than Revan, but that in no gives him a victory

That's bullshit. I could just as easily credit you with being a Revan fanboy, DS. Don't use crappy logic like that. The difference is: Jollyjim has done a hell of a lot better job than LeGenD at making an argument, and Advent's torn the Revan Fan Brigade to shreds. If you think Revan is the superior swordsman, you have to prove it. I'm tired as hell with people complaining about "there isn't enough information!11!!" to adequetly defend one's favorite character. Deception just did it with Marka Ragnos and the Ancient Sith, and people are now doing it for Revan.

It's bullshit. If the evidence we have for Maul makes a better case for his dominance than the evidence we have for Revan, then it stands that Maul > Revan (in swordsmanship) until you can prove otherwise.

I love it how we conveniently have enough information about Revan to place him as "an uber Sith" and yet when push comes to shove, people cry that there isn't enough to make an argument, and so the debate itself should be waived. Not happening.



I guess Maul's fortunate, since the thread-opener clearly states that this is a saber-fight. I suppose that would make a convincing reason to credit you with being a Revan fanboy, DS, adding irrelevant statements to fellate him.

Conclusion: There isn't any pro-Maul, anti-Revan shit going on. And if there is, who the hell cares, so long as they can back it up. The Revan side sucks ass when it comes to that, so far. Prove the Maul guys wrong.

Originally posted by Gideon
That's bullshit. I could just as easily credit you with being a Revan fanboy, DS. Don't use crappy logic like that. The difference is: Jollyjim has done a hell of a lot better job than LeGenD at making an argument, and Advent's torn the Revan Fan Brigade to shreds. If you think Revan is the superior swordsman, you have to prove it. I'm tired as hell with people complaining about "there isn't enough information!11!!" to adequetly defend one's favorite character. Deception just did it with Marka Ragnos and the Ancient Sith, and people are now doing it for Revan.

It's bullshit. If the evidence we have for Maul makes a better case for his dominance than the evidence we have for Revan, then it stands that Maul > Revan (in swordsmanship) until you can prove otherwise.

I love it how we conveniently have enough information about Revan to place him as "an uber Sith" and yet when push comes to shove, people cry that there isn't enough to make an argument, and so the debate itself should be waived. Not happening.



I guess Maul's fortunate, since the thread-opener clearly states that this is a saber-fight. I suppose that would make a convincing reason to credit you with being a Revan fanboy, DS, adding irrelevant statements to fellate him.

Conclusion: There isn't any pro-Maul, anti-Revan shit going on. And if there is, who the hell cares, so long as they can back it up. The Revan side sucks ass when it comes to that, so far. Prove the Maul guys wrong.

By your logic, I'm as much a Revan and ancient sith fan as you are anti revan, anti ancient sith. It goes both ways Escape.

...What the hell? No. I don't argue out of bias, that's the damn difference. I've defended the Ancient Sith and Revan based on the evidence laid down before me. Did you forget that, at all? I'm not the one who attempts to make arguments or debates inadmissable because there isn't enough evidence for me to support my character. Deception did it with the Ancient Sith, you agreed. Now you and LeGenD want to do it with Revan. It's bullshit. I'm the guy who argues based on evidence, regardless if it fellates the characters I like or otherwise. No one here is arguing that Maul wouldn't get an ass beating from Revan in the Force. What we are telling you is that the pro-Maul people are making a vastly superior argument than the pro-Revan.

Based on sheer evidence alone, Maul is the superior swordsman. You liking Revan better isn't going to change that.



It would, if I undermined Revan's and the Ancient Sith's power and achievements. I don't. I put it into proper perspective.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
We are talking about a character whose information is not yet complete, so the possibility of exaggerations and unspported assumpions do exist in these kinds of cases.

That's not the point, the point is throughout this entire debate you've claimed that Revan did feats x, y, and z easily. If we don't know, why would you make the claim? There's so many times where you've posted nothing but bullshit scenarios and acted as if they were factual.



Thank you for the lesson on "How To Handle Yourself on the Internet", but I think I'll follow my own way. And there is a need to get "annoyed" when people twist your arguments around (like you do constantly).



That's because absolutely nothing I said was based on a falsehood. You can't label someone a "liar", if they haven't lied.



Here's the thing, Legend, you've yet to prove up. Prove that the Sith masters don't allow the usage of grenades. Typing it out doesn't make it true. You have no evidence, so it's unsupported. The opposite assumption is backed up by the fact you're aloud to have them in your inventory and use them.

If it's not said in a cutscene, you have no point. And if it is, I want the quote.



And this is relevant how?



You stated that no grenade would be enough to "seriously injure" or "kill" the terentateks, your proof for this would be where? Your ass?



It doesn't have to be supported by anything (though because it's unknown, it's automatically a possibility), because I am not suggesting that he actually accomplished his goal by these means. I am opening your blind eyes to the fact that there are other options at hand, as you have been hellbent on claiming that he did this with a lightsaber.

Continually twisting my position around will do you no good. I would've thought you learned that by now.



You didn't have a choice to begin with, Legend, your assertion had no backbone to it.



Originally posted by Borbarad
OMG !
How many pointless stuff can a single person but into one single post ?

The dialog and the reaction to it is dependant on the choice of the player. As is the reaction of Uthar. So what do you want to do here ? Neither did Revan canonically say that line nor did Uthar reply with the other. Urm. And that also pretty much destroys that assumptions you were drawing from that quote.

Originally posted by Advent
Nonsense. Simply because Revan said it (I want to see the quote, by the way) doesn't make it true. I suppose Darth Sidious must really have "UNL1MITED POWAH!!/!1ONEELEVEN!!" simply because he says so.

Furthermore, how could Revan have said that if it's possible to just run past them and pull the lever? Oh? What's that? You just got owned? Quod erat demonstrandum, *****.

Additionally, one could note that there's no canonical evidence that Revan even killed those terentateks, because as I said, it's possible to run past them and pull the lever. Ergo the fact that Revan supposedly said he killed them "easily" (which is bullshit; where's the quote?) is entirely irrelevant.

Aside from the fact that even if he did, it still wouldn't matter.



See the above points and try removing your blinders, if you have time.



Not really, since your point is still invalid.



Originally posted by Borbarad
OMG !
How many pointless stuff can a single person but into one single post ?

The dialog and the reaction to it is dependant on the choice of the player. As is the reaction of Uthar. So what do you want to do here ? Neither did Revan canonically say that line nor did Uthar reply with the other. Urm. And that also pretty much destroys that assumptions you were drawing from that quote.

Originally posted by Advent
Nonsense. Simply because Revan said it (I want to see the quote, by the way) doesn't make it true. I suppose Darth Sidious must really have "UNL1MITED POWAH!!/!1ONEELEVEN!!" simply because he says so.

Furthermore, how could Revan have said that if it's possible to just run past them and pull the lever? Oh? What's that? You just got owned? Quod erat demonstrandum, *****.

Additionally, one could note that there's no canonical evidence that Revan even killed those terentateks, because as I said, it's possible to run past them and pull the lever. Ergo the fact that Revan supposedly said he killed them "easily" (which is bullshit; where's the quote?) is entirely irrelevant.

Aside from the fact that even if he did, it still wouldn't matter.



I've never denied that anything you said wasn't a possibility, Legend, but when you assert it as true, you're making the assumption naked. Ergo, it


Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Every Jedi thinks differently and fights differently.

You've defeated your own point.



Parroting my words to you ("just because you say it, doesn't make it true) is rather asinine, especially considering you're quoting out of context, a logical fallacy.

And really, what you're saying in no way refutes my point, because your misconstruing my argument:

Originally posted by Advent
By this type of ridiculous logic, I could question why they didn't indirectly use the Force. Are they immune to that as well?

Answer: No. Ergo simply because a few, young Jedi didn't opt to use the Force doesn't mean they are completely resistant. Or alternatively, I could inform you that to generalize because one batch of fighters didn't use the Force, it means everyone else is thusly incapable is fallacious.

Keep using reasoning like that and you'll find yourself getting laughed at.

Refute it or drop the point. Clearly you don't understand this simple concept.



Which is a point in favor of my position.

Let me explain further, so even you can understand. What you're saying is absolutely true, therefore to suggest because the group of Jedi knights didn't use the Force means that they are immune is fallacious. For all we know, they weren't strong in the Force, or they simply didn't use it for unknown reasons. It is not correct to say that this adds to your standpoint because it means jack shit.



Originally posted by Advent
By this type of ridiculous logic, I could question why they didn't indirectly use the Force. Are they immune to that as well?

Answer: No. Ergo simply because a few, young Jedi didn't opt to use the Force doesn't mean they are completely resistant. Or alternatively, I could inform you that to generalize because one batch of fighters didn't use the Force, it means everyone else is thusly incapable is fallacious.

Keep using reasoning like that and you'll find yourself getting laughed at.

Refute it or drop the point. Clearly you don't understand this simple concept.



No, it doesn't, Legend.

Again, irrelevant. See above.



Last time I checked "190/200" doesn't equate to completely. So, what's your point? And what section of your ass did you pull this numbers out of?

Regardless, the point is Force attacks works. Which means that I was right, and you were wrong.



Originally posted by Advent
By this type of ridiculous logic, I could question why they didn't indirectly use the Force. Are they immune to that as well?

Answer: No. Ergo simply because a few, young Jedi didn't opt to use the Force doesn't mean they are completely resistant. Or alternatively, I could inform you that to generalize because one batch of fighters didn't use the Force, it means everyone else is thusly incapable is fallacious.

Keep using reasoning like that and you'll find yourself getting laughed at.

Refute it or drop the point. Clearly you don't understand this simple concept.



No, it doesn't. It doesn't even so much as add to it. And to say that it does is a logical fallacy (which would render it invalid, anyways).



Such as? Prove up.

And any source you've provided thus far is unofficial, ergo it can't be used. If it is used, it'd result in me calling an appeal to authority, like I have been doing.

And the actual source material (the game), suggests that they are not completely immune, so you really don't have a point anyways.



In a debate? No, they don't, because to suggest something like that would be a case of appealing to the majority, another fallacy.



But you are a liar, and you've made stuff up in almost every single post thus far. I didn't realize the fact that this isn't a debate on anything important would change the fact that you can still lie.



No, I'm not. Because being a "professional liar" would imply that you're good at lying. Which you are not.



Skirting the point again, Legend? Prove that you're not allowed to carry explosives in the tombs or it isn't true.



No, it hasn't. You haven't provided any proof that suggests it's unacceptable to carry mines, grenades, etc. So, given your history of aggrandizing and blatantly making shit up, I'm going to assume it isn't true until I see viable evidence.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I admit that we do not know the whole story of this fight but it has never been stated in any source that it was a hard fight for Revan.

Which means precisely dick. Turning your own logic around, no source has stated that Revan and co. easily killed Bandon, does that means it was hard? Absolutely not. It's unknown, and no proper guess could be made on the matter.

To say something like "X killed Y, it was never said it was hard, ergo it was easy" is completely and utterly fallacious reasoning. I'd advise not using it.



Good Buddha, pull your head out of your ass.

I'm going to go over this one final time. And in an accommodating manner for someone of your intelligence, who can't seem to get the point through his thick cranium.

Your. Source. Is. Unofficial.

Because of that, I'd call an

Appeal. To. Authority.

Which means,

Your. Source. Holds. No. Value. As. Fact.

Do you understand yet? If not, I'll have to bash it into your skull. The source of information you're using is a third party site, which means an appeal to authority would make using it in a debate purely inadmissible as proof of your assertion.

In other words: it can't be accepted. Furthermore, look at the website heading:

http://img511.imageshack.us/img511/2936/unofficialass2kqe9.png

"The Completely Unofficial Star Wars Encyclopedia", so it looks like your argument for Revan "destroying" Yusanis holds no water.

QED.



Good, you're finally wising up.



Here's the kicker: I'm not trying to prove anything as "most likely", nor definitively. My position during this entire argument has been simple, and that would be that there's no accurate assumption to make the matter. It's unknown, which is what I've said multiple times.

I've had this discussion with you, in which I said the same exact thing, and you're doing the same exact thing in this case as you were in the other (assuming I'm arguing definitively).

Twisting my position around will do you no good, only make yourself seem like more of a moron than you already are.



Actually, it's the strongest one, because I'm not arguing a definite or likelihood.



Uh. Yeah, I disagreed with them because you've been trying to state them as truth, which there's no proof for.



They're not suppose to be, because the sole purpose for me posting them is to demonstrate the fact that there's no evidence to suggest any specific case happened, due to the mystery surrounding the event.

I've been saying this the entire argument, Legend. Equip your spectacles.



Such as? Point out which assumptions are supported by official sources. So far the only one has been that a lightsaber duel ensued, which is something I never questioned.



...Yeah, you are.



I know, you're losing, and it's so funny to see you grasp at air.



I can't even decipher this sentence, but I'll give it a try. The two seconds is within reason (and heavily in favor of your argument because it suggests I'm not denying a saber duel happened) because Duron's vision only shows Revan with his saber drawn.

I'll reiterate my original point: it doesn't show how long they dueled for, which for all we know was two seconds, or how Malak was killed. Ergo, my standpoint is absolutely sturdy.

Once again, you need to go back to the drawing board on this point, as there is absolutely no connection between my quote and your question (nor comedy). Are you drunk?



So then, you're admitting that my position was right? Good to know, the idiot finally puts up the white flag on an argument he couldn't win to begin with.



http://img520.imageshack.us/img520/8361/brokenrecorduq3.png

And no one ever denied that.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Do you think that Anoon was more skilled swordsman then Yoda, Dooku and Windu or even compared to them in that regard?

He's directly stated by the omniscient narrator as having lightsaber skills "second to none" in the entire Jedi Order, a few sentences later Yoda is declared as having skills "second to none" within the Jedi Council, so it's apparent that the author took into acknowledgement Yoda's talents, but Anoon was simply the best (because the Council is part of the Order). So to answer your question: yes, and to argue against a narrator would be asinine.



Try giving all the details out next time, such as Maul was injured before the duel even took place, Obi-Wan tapped into the dark side to fuel his powers (and because of that, caught Maul off guard), that Maul had less time to replenish his strength, and had to do more work than Obi-Wan the entire duel. Oh, and then add the fact Maul was regaining the upper hand.

Nice job stating all the circumstances.

According to both the novelization and the script, Maul was regaining the upper hand before they even went into a deadlock.

"But Darth Maul was the stronger of the two and was driven by a frenzy that surpassed even the frantic determination that fueled Obi-Wan. Eventually, the Sith Lord began to wear the young Jedi down. Bit by bit, he pressed him back, carrying the attack to him, looking to catch him off guard. Obi-Wan could sense his body weakening, and his fear of what it would mean if he, too, were to fall, began to grow. " (The Phantom Menace, Ch. 21)

"DARTH MAUL seems to have the upper hand as OBI-WAN grows weary." (The Phantom Menace script).

You were saying?




By this logic, the best lightsaber duelist in the Order should be able to kick Maul's ass, but he didn't. So your point holds no water.

Also see above, listing a few circumstances that are in favor isn't smart.



The source is unofficial, ergo holds no water.



Are you a Jedi? No. Are you Revan? No. Is it a fallacy to assume it limited his focus? Yes.

Correlation does not imply causation, therefore to say that it definitively caused a hindrance on his fighting abilities would be faulty (and a fallacy). Moreover, you're not Revan. So, you have absolutely no idea how he would've handled the situation.



Right, but you're not understand what I'm saying: correlation does not imply causation, and you have no idea what was going through Revan's head at the time, because you're not Revan!



Are you a Jedi? No. Are you Revan? No. Is it a fallacy to assume it limited his focus? Yes.

Correlation does not imply causation, therefore to say that it definitively caused a hindrance on his fighting abilities would be faulty (and a fallacy). Moreover, you're not Revan. So, you have absolutely no idea how he would've handled the situation.



I lol'd.

Third party sources mean jack shit in debates, so you have no proof. Furthermore, my side isn't supposed to be making assumptions that are any better than yours. My side is supposed to be proving that there's too many unknown circumstances around the majority of Revan's battles to say "Revan did A in situation B". Which I've accomplished, as you've been conceding on many points.



I never said it did, George Lucas did.



Irrelevant. By this logic, the soldiers who fought in the Revolutionary War must be greater than soldiers now. I find that unlikely considering the advancement in training, tactics and the like.



Originally posted by Lightsnake
Lucas said it was the prime and golden age of the Jedi. The EU implemented that. AOTC novelization? ROTS novelization? Power of the Jedi? Wanna argue against them too? AOTc novelization makes a little mention of the Jedi order being at its strongest, which worries Yoda that they've gotten too complacent. ROTs novelization mentions the Jedi order is toppled at its strongest, Power of the Jedi says much the same

So now the PT is the strongest era of Jedi.

Fallacious reasoning aside, now. I'm gonna take the canon above anything you say.

So, no, you're blatantly wrong. Notice Lucas made the reference to fighting?



I don't need to know for sure, because absolutely no evidence suggests that any Jedi from the KotOR-era are on par, or even close to the three aforementioned individuals in a saber battle (Revan's a possibility, but even his duel against Maul is up in the air).



No, I didn't; see above.



Uh, the evidence in that post outright states him to be the best. A declaration from the omniscient narrator trumps any proof of the contrary. So you don't need any more, because it's already been provided.



Already been addressed, see above. And no one ever said that Maul was "unstoppable" anyways.



Already been addressed, see above.



Just because you type it out doesn't mean it's true. And your original claim was that he was "among the greatest", since you can't prove that, and because "possibly" means jack shit, you lose.



Assumed? By who? You? What you think means very little, simply because he was "a skilled swordsman" does not mean he mastered it.



I've already said as much, thanks for repeating me and supporting my position.



Which there's absolutely no proof for. Being shown to wield two sabers =/= being "believed to be among the greatest".



Assume what you will, I really don't care what you think. And I'll "remain civil" once someone exterminates all the noobs and idiots on this forum (which includes you).

The rest is just ridiculous, because I will never see you outside of the intraweb, and if I do, I'll probably laugh at you.

<edit>Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
And move on, girl! This is just a debate on a fiction issue.

Then quit responding to my posts, you're clearly not winning or proving your point. </edit>

The only detail here is I'm not sure if the quote is from Darsha Assant's POV....I'll give Shadowhunter a readthrough later

Originally posted by Lightsnake
The only detail here is I'm not sure if the quote is from Darsha Assant's POV....I'll give Shadowhunter a readthrough later

The one regarding his prowess with a blade? It's coming from the narration; although, Darsha herself does believe he is the best according to the PotJ Sourcebook, it's apparent that in the case with Shadow Hunter that the narrator is proclaiming him as such.

I have understood what you are trying to say, Advent! So I have decided to drop my points in this debate.

Originally posted by Advent
Assume what you will, I really don't care what you think. And I'll "remain civil" once someone exterminates all the noobs and idiots on this forum (which includes you).
I am used to decent talking, Advent! Get this thing in your skull!

And if I feel that someone is trying to insult me, I can give a very harsh response as well. Some people know this very well. But I am showing tolerance to you because you are a girl. I am even tolerant to men but everything has got some limits.

Originally posted by Advent
The rest is just ridiculous, because I will never see you outside of the intraweb, and if I do, I'll probably laugh at you.
That is your choice and I too am not interested to talking to someone like you who have no level of tolerance and likes to throw insults at other people's views.

And you won't get a chance to laugh at me, if you by any chance see me. Because only an idiot will laugh at a 6 foot tall and a well educated man. This is irrelevant however.

My advice: Learn to be Civil. It will be good for you in the future. Insulting people in a forum is easy but some people have less level of tolerance and they can insult back.

Originally posted by Advent
Then quit responding to my posts, you're clearly not winning or proving your point.
I do not argue to win. This is not an actual test for me, for which I have to pass. And I argue to learn.

Thanks for your time though!

I found these lines especially funny.

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
I found these lines especially funny.
Entertaining is one of my specialities!

But I do believe in a *** for Tat response. If someone insults me, he or she will expect the same from me.

But that wasn't very insulting though. All you did was mention your height. wow...

...Yeah, you ought to take lessons from AC or Advent on how to insult. None of that was funny or witty at all.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
But that wasn't very insulting though. All you did was mention your height. wow...
LOL!

I was just indicating that a person will not laugh at me on my looks because I do not look funny.

Anyways! Advent is a girl. I would like to be friendly and stay decent with any girl. I am just advising her to be more polite and decent in her debates.

She is very talented but she lacks tolerance and insults even when it is not really necessary. She would be a good person in real life but her attitude here shows something else.

Originally posted by Gideon
...Yeah, you ought to take lessons from AC or Advent on how to insult. None of that was funny or witty at all.

It's not that Advent lacks tolerance, it's that she doesn't feel that she has to show it to you.

Edit: And for all you know, she is a good person in real life (which is my guess). But I'm biased, because we're in love.

Damn Escape, it's time to set you up with a web cam girl.

Originally posted by Gideon
It's not that Advent lacks tolerance, it's that she doesn't feel that she has to show it to you.

Edit: And for all you know, she is a good person in real life (which is my guess). But I'm biased, because we're in love. First sentence pretty much sums her attitude up.

Pff, if she looks anything like the chick in her sig, you better be prepared to fight me to the death for her*Cue Star Trek battle music*.

Originally posted by Spartan ll
Star Trek

Punches for DE Luke.

Originally posted by jollyjim311
Punches for DE Luke. *Kicks jollyjim in the nuts* I win.

Originally posted by Spartan ll
*Kicks jollyjim in the nuts* I win.

...*Cries and/or vomits on you.*

Originally posted by jollyjim311
...*Cries and/or vomits on you.* *Throws vomit-soaked shirt at Jollyjims face*

*Gimps away with new shirt?*

You guys are gay

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
I am very gay
Fixed.

AAAAAAnywho: Moving on.

I don't know what it is that you agree with me on. Anyways, while Revan is indeed the superior tactician, what you seem to be saying is that more militaristic period equates to more power and more techniques. This is not only NOT the case, but it is a direct contradiction to the fact that the PT Jedi are in their respective peaks. Can you name me more than a few jedi/sith that were powerhouses in other areas? No? I can name you a lot of Jedi/Sith who were powerhouses in the pt era. The point is, being more militaristic doesn't make you more powerful.

Darth Sexy, I was agreeing with you over the Revan V Maul Battle results. Other then that, you have completely missed my point. The Jedi were not so much militaristic as they were involved in a great deal of strife, and thus, with active combat experience under their belts, they were indeed far more powerful then the PT era. You also failed to notice the fact that the KOTOR era had far more Sith and Jedi Lore available for learning, and thus were more powerful.

My point is that the half-assed peacekeeping drained the Jedi of experience, and they became stuck in limbo, with the only major reform in a forward direction being Mace Windu's Shatterpoint/Vaapad. Also, you talk about naming more 'powerhouses' in PT then KOTOR, but you again miss the point.

The 'powerhouses' of PT were, on average, not up to task with the ones that came before them and the ones after them. Because while both of the others were experienced in strife, and the former had some long-forgotten Jedi lore and techniques to boot, the Jedi of PT did not have that experience save some spontaneous peacekeeping, and it shows: they adopted Nimian, and watch how effective THAT is in the arena on Geonosis. That is my point, and numbers do not mattere as much as quality on average.

Originally posted by Tortoise Herder
Darth Sexy, I was agreeing with you over the Revan V Maul Battle results. Other then that, you have completely missed my point. The Jedi were not so much militaristic as they were involved in a great deal of strife, and thus, with active combat experience under their belts, they were indeed far more powerful then the PT era. You also failed to notice the fact that the KOTOR era had far more Sith and Jedi Lore available for learning, and thus were more powerful.
Your point is invalid, because it directly contradicts everything canon in star wars, and the fact that the PT era was "The golden age of the Jedi". You have at LEAST 5-6 powerhouses in that era, whereas you have 1-2 from different KOTOR/TOTJ eras. Not to mention, I believe the Clone Wars were even more devastating than the Jedi Civil War(although I prefer to think the Jedi Civil War was the most devastating until the Vong War), so it wasn't all peacetime for the PT Jedi. Your next point is also 100% invalid..
More resources does not equate to more power. Notice how during the KOTOR time, there was no defense for certain techniques (such as Nihilus' drain), and in the PT era, there are defenses for certain techniques. While more "lore" was available to ancient jedi/sith, the pt jedi/sith had the chance to capitalize on lost knowledge AND new knowledge. Not to mention, having more sith doesn't mean more knowledge. Notice how Sidious, who was 1 of 2 sith at all time during that last millennium, had more sith lore than ANY other sith in the history of star wars.


Your point is apparently that more militaristic+more lore and sith=more power. That is an incorrect assertion.



This again, goes against canon. Yoda was the most powerful Jedi up until Luke's time. Mace's shatterpoint and vaapad abilities made him a saber powerhouse. Dooku was one of the greatest Jedi in the 25,000 year old history and an even greater sith lord, not to mention the greatest of the "lost twenty". Your argument is severely flawed, which is why your conclusion is incorrect.

Has anyone at all here substantiated how GL saying vaguely that "Golden Age of the Jedi" equals PT Jedi being the most martially capable of all Jedi in the last 25,000 years? Especially since they haven't had any full-scale total war conflicts in "a thousand years" and their lightsaber training is limited to combating each other to gain in skill; not swatting at Sith and dark Jedi left and right who are trying to kill them?

I'm still curious about that one.



1. Define "powerhouse" and its meaning in this debate. Don't be vague.

2. Where are you getting "1-2 powerhouses" from the KotOR/ToTJ era anyways? Do you even know what you're talking about? Malak, before he became DLotS, was a legendary lightsaber user among his peers and strong in the Force (Strong enough that the Star Forge didn't destroy him as it destroyed the multitude of pretenders who followed him). Kavar, the famed Jedi Guardian, was noted beyond the Outer Rim by the Mandalorians as a "worthy opponent", and he teaches higher end lightsaber forms such as Juyo and Ataru. Kavar's shown knocking out an entire cantina with the Force without even killing anyone in the process.

Bastila was a Force prodigy, able to use Battle Meditation on such a level that her personal security was an issue of the Republic, who sent her under armed escort with at least one of their most capable known soldiers. She was powerful enough even to replace Darth Bandon as Malak's apprentice, and it is Sith tenets that teach only the strong are worthy of attaining power, clearly. Her mere presence at a battle usually determines its outcome.

Ulic Qel-Droma was a master swordsman (and yes, I know you hate it when I use that term) whose skill was absolutely amazing. He stalemated Exar Kun in a pitched battle, and beat down Mandalore while in a precarious position. Even more amazing is that even without the Force, he was able to maintain a defensive duel against an enraged Jedi Sylvar. Ulic's skills with a lightsaber even there outshine your average PT Jedi. I don't see Anoon Bandara or Cin Drallig or Ki-Adi-Mundi doing this.

You have Jedi Masters in these eras with literally awesome powers: some could make matter stronger than a lightsaber (Vodo), others could mindwipe living beings and recreate their memories (KotOR Jedi Council), block Sith from the Force (Nomi, Odan-Urr) and a multitude of other abilities not seen nor exactly surpassed by PT Jedi. Hell, even Luke Skywalker's band of JA misfits show Force control and martial capability surpassing PT Jedi, and it makes sense considering how conflict drove them to become dangerous fighters.



Wow, so suddenly we care about what you believe based on what? Gut instinct? Magic 8-ball? The Clone Wars were hardly more "devastating" to the Jedi overall then the Jedi Civil War (though at the end of the former, the Jedi were annihilated, but this is more of a finality; they don't grow from this conflict because they die from it). For one thing, the battle of Geonosis is seen as perhaps the most devastating reversal to Jedi forces during the entire war, and only perhaps 200 Jedi die out of an order of 10,000. During the Jedi Civil War, an order of comparible size was decimated to barely a hundre. Kreia notes that many fell in battle, and even more were seduced to the Dark Side. This battle shattered the Jedi Order because of the conflict, though it drove some to become seasoned warriors. This is a far cry from the Clone Wars, where the majority of the fighting was done by naval ships and Clone Troopers or indigenous forces, with Jedi merely being generals or diplomats as the situation demanded. I mean hell, a year into the Clone Wars, and high-end figures like Kit Fisto and Obi-Wan Kenobi were being sent to be diplomats with a neutral planet who was producing new biodroids. This doesn't strike me as a particularly balls-to-the-wall conflict like the Jedi Civil War where Jedi slew Dark Jedi left and right.



Not precisely; more resources do open one up for more vareity of powers and helps one master those powers. And considering that the Jedi Order itself was founded in a time of conflict and that those teachings trickled down through the ages until the Battle of Ruusan, where Jedi finally put away their battle armor and titles, gave away their troops and navies and became the police force of the Republic which hadn't seen another fullscale war for the next millenia.... Let's be reasonable here- there's nothing to support that PT Jedi are more "militant" or more martially capable than previous era Jedi. Theirs was a time of peace, a time of meditation where one could focus on Niman and not on Makashi, so to speak. It was, yes, a golden age of the Jedi, one where they did not need to fight and slaughter. But peace stagnates. This is universal.



Substantiate this, DS. Traya notes that there are "techniques in the Force against which there is no defense", but she does not name these techniques and the FMV shows her being Force pushed into a wall, beaten down physically and then continues with her saying she was broken down, stripped of her powers, and exiled.

And somehow you assert that in the PT era there are "defenses for certain techniques"(Again, being typically vague and showing no valid arguments or sources) and this somehow equates to better PT Jedi in combat? Is this how you think?



The Jedi Order as of KotOR had multiple enclaves, libraries, and centers each stockpiled with learning from millenia. Thanks to the machinations of Revan, Malak, and Exar Kun, much was lost or plundered. In the wake of the Jedi Civil War when barely a hundred or so Jedi remained, much was plundered and sold by regular people even (See Dantooine). In case you don't recognize how profound of a loss this is, put it in this light:

The Jedi Order was over 20,000 years old at the time of the Jedi Civil War. Much of this knowledge was lost or misplaced, destroyed, died with the original owners, etc. Four thousand years later, any evidence we have of Jedi lore seems lax and certainly have less incentive to study martial feats. Yes, Jedi are shown to be able to slow their breathing, make sand whirl into an intricate pattern, speed themselves up, etc. But nothing groundbreaking when you compare it. There aren't PT Jedi becoming avatars of the Force through meditation and study. In fact, even for all their efforts, the PT Jedi suffered under a cloak of darkness during the Clone Wars, and they could not even sense a Dark Lord of the Sith in their presence. If this is the best the Jedi have to offer, well... it's pretty substandard.

And again, the point remains that conflict drives a Jedi and builds their abilities. You can even see this in the PT era- compare AotC Anakin and Obi-Wan versus their incarnations three years later- even the limited exposure to war and the Sith has made them absolutely amazing.



No, more Sith means more incentive to practice lightsaber duelling styles and tricks, defensive Force feats and so on. The earlier era had more experience in the matter in general, and more reference material. In the PT Jedi era, true lightsaber duelling is considered outdated; it's all about blaster bolt reflection.

And despite your vague, unsubstantied claim about Sidious, the point remains that the era was more warlike and had ready access to martially-focused material. This is evident.



Substantiate this. Show a reliable, non-third person source which lists Yoda as "the most powerful Jedi" in Jedi History until Luke Skywalker. Then, put it into context as to how Yoda's station in the Jedi Order reflects on his subordinates as martial Jedi.



But didn't make him better than Yoda, who practiced a lightsaber form thousands of years old. Mace's true strength over his PT Jedi is that he's the most martial-minded of Jedi. He's the one who is fueled by controlled passions and extensive saber practice. However, for all his martial ability and mindset, even Mace Windu is changed by his conflict on Haruun Kal, where he must confront war in person for perhaps the first time during the Clone Wars. He says it himself "Jedi are keepers of the peace; not soldiers". He reinforces their status of Republic policemen, not warriors.

Again, conflict strengthens. It's like the old adage- the blade must pass through the fire, or else it will break when used.

Dooku was the PT-era Jedi's best student according to Yoda, and a great Sith Lord for personal power (He was much much older than any Sith Lord we've read about save for ancients like Ragnos and Sadow) and his dedication to what? A lightsaber form barely used in his own time. A lightsaber form used mostly when? In earlier timeframes. Dooku was the only living master of Makashi in the PT era; the only living master of the form dedicated solely to lightsaber duelling.

During the Jedi Civil War, before, and after, lightsaber duelling and battling was more important than the PT era, and certainly more practiced. So using Dooku in your sweeping generalization is inaccurate; Dooku was portrayed as an archaic oddball whose potential was virtually unrivaled by any Jedi save for Yoda and Anakin Skywalker.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
Has anyone at all here substantiated how GL saying vaguely that "Golden Age of the Jedi" equals PT Jedi being the most martially capable of all Jedi in the last 25,000 years? Especially since they haven't had any full-scale total war conflicts in "a thousand years" and their lightsaber training is limited to combating each other to gain in skill; not swatting at Sith and dark Jedi left and right who are trying to kill them?

I'm still curious about that one.
Nobody's really substantiated it. Someone mentioned that it was the golden age of saber combat, others stated that the most powerful jedi/sith were around during the PT era.




Yoda, Sidious, Mace, Dooku, Anakin, Exar Kun, Revan, Nadd..


Where is the source stating that Malak was a legendary lightsaber combatant? Since you're asking me to define terms, please quantify "strong", and its correlation to the ability to withstand the star forge? The mandalorians calling Kavar a worthy opponent makes him a powerhouse? Do we have ANY knowledge of his saber or force abilities Janus? Or are you using 3rd party sources to prove a point?


Excuse me? Bastilla was a force prodigy because she had the innate ability of battle meditation? Please tells us how that translates into her being a force prodigy? Last time I checked, nothing else about her was anything special. She was powerful enough to replace Bandon, GOLLY GEE. Bandon was what, worthless? Do we have ANY proof that anyone besides Malak wielded considerable power?


What do you define as "amazing"? Notice how I'm not arguing him being a prodigy nor being better than an average Jedi. But on the level of the PT powerhouses? That's a whole different debate.


Jesus Janus, how does the ability to make your stick as strong as a saber make you a powerhouse? Last time I checked, the techniques used by the KOTOR Jedi were accessible through the Jedi Holocron. The blocking technique is cool and all but we saw what effect it has on a superior force user. Knowing that technique doesn't make you powerful unless you have the ability to use it. I give Nomi more credit for using it (even though Ulic was unaware of what she was about to do), than Odan Urr using it on average ancient sith.




Notice how I said that I myself lean towards the JCW being more devastating, yet the Clone Wars took care of the Jedi more efficiently. You have to take order 66 as part of the battle. Otherwise I agree, that the JCW was FAR more devastating on a galactic scale.

First of all, unless there are sources (I'm not sure) substantiating the "golden age of the Jedi", it's all relative. Secondly, I never stated the PT Jedi were more militant, in fact I stated the exact opposite. But again, you're operating under the assumption that more militaristic=more powerful. So are you assuming that any KOTOR Jedi is more powerful than any PT Jedi? Or the average KOTOR Jedi are more powerful than the average PT Jedi?


Janus, I didn't know everything had to be spelled out for you, but ok. We know Nihilus has his force killer. We also see that what he does is NOT a force push, but similar to a force drain, because Kreia is unable to wield the force for some time after this event (hence cast down and stripped). So lets assume we are talking about at least ONE technique right now, being the Force killer. In the PT time and NJO time, Luke and Yoda learn the looping technique (Luke knows it, Yoda is a more logical assumption because he studied with the Fallanassi). So there's one instance of having a defense for a technique that had none 4,000 years before. Not to mention, I believe most of the ancient knowledge is in the Jedi Holocron in the PT time.

And somehow you assert that in the PT era there are "defenses for certain techniques"(Again, being typically vague and showing no valid arguments or sources) and this somehow equates to better PT Jedi in combat? Is this how you think?
What arguments do I have to make Janus? I type this because I assume that you know what I'm talking about (given that you have all of the sources or at the very least, more than myself). Some people on this forum play dumb but I didn't know I'm supposed to write a rebuttal so concise that even a 3 year old would understand it.



Trust me Janus, as a huge fan of Revan and the whole KOTOR scene, I know exactly what it means. But you're assuming that most of the techniques were lost, and wouldn't be found again at all. I'm sure you're aware of the secrets in the Jedi Holocron. Hell I mean just look at the fact that Darth Krayt somehow stumbled onto 3 holocrons that nobody was really rumored to have, ON KORRIBAN of all places..


You're attributing Anakin's increase in skill due to the war. Nevermind the fact that he was the son of the force, and therefore had more potential than anybody else. Nevermind the fact that his power apparently "Doubled" within 3 years. That's more of an exception than the rule, and it had less to do with the war than him being the son of the force and constantly learning.



Where does it say that true lightsaber dueling is considered outdated? Wasn't it stated that the PT Era was the peak of saber combat? Furthermore, when do we see instances of incredible force techniques aside from the obvious people I've mentioned, in the KOTOR times? As far as I remember, the JCW was pretty much a galaxy wide space battle, so I don't see how they had a chance to "improve" their force abilities.


I think everyone has just about given up arguing Sidious with you, since you constantly take every source calling Sidious the greatest sith master, most powerful sith, as vague and unsubstantiated. In fact that seems to be your best defense when you don't agree with something.



Most powerful foe darkness has ever known? I guess that can be interpreted in SOO many ways? The fact that he stalemated the most powerful sith lord? The fact that he had access to the Jedi holocron? I don't know, what else do you want Janus? Can you name ANYBODY from the KOTOR times, that COULD be more powerful than the 800 year old master?



It made Mace more efficient against the dark siders in saber combat, than Yoda. If you want proof, see their respective duels against Sidious (OBJECTIVELY).


So you would be saying that because the KOTOR JEdi are more militaristic, as a whole they MUST be more powerful than the PT Jedi. According to all the books and sources you've read, I'm sure you understand this is not only untrue, but directly contradictory to Star Wars. Aside from a few powerhouses, the KOTOR Jedi have not shown anything resembling the PT Jedi in force abilities and lightsaber combat.

Apparently you have no knowledge of his saber or Force abilities, or else you'd never make such a silly statement. Please, go and actually play the game, tdtd. Find out for yourself.



Again, I have to question if you have even played the games, tdtd. Bastila is noted by the council as being brash, but extremely gifted in the Force. Powerful enough to lead a strike team against a Dark Lord of the Sith, powerful enough to heal his mind and body when he was nearly killed in the battle, powerful enough to Force bond with him and certainly capable enough to instruct him fully in the uses of the Force before all the other masters of the council. When Malak captures her and turns her, her Force powers only increase, and she becomes capable enough to completely incapacitate Jolee Bindo and Juhani with no effort whatsoever.



Again, see the official bio for Darth Bandon on the KotOR website; Bandon is DLotS above everyone in the Sith Empire save for Malak himself. He's noted as being a skilled and violent fighter who's slain many Jedi. When he boarded Bastila's ship, he proceeded to massacre everything in his path, including a few Jedi bodyguards. Seeing as the Sith just don't let people into the higher ranks based on their credit ratings, it's possible that he's there because he's STRONG and very GOOD with a lightsaber, don't you think?



It amuses me when you try to hide being a dumbass by being a smartass. Sort of like a wolf struggling to fit into sheep's skin to fool the pack. If you can't define "amazing" and its context in my sentence, you are completely incapable of seeing reason. I asked you to define "powerhouse" because you sling it around like it's a definate title with real and objective properties. It doesn't have those in this debate. You introduced the term and therefore you must define it or stop using it. Or both. I don't care.



Define powerhouse in your context, please. Name the defining characteristics of all the characters you've listed as "powerhouses" and provide sources for such assertions.

Or STFU and stop using vague phrases to justify your positions. Your debating level leaves much to be desired.



Which techniques? The Jedi Holocron? You mean there's only one? What, is it like the Jedi Internet? Or do you mean the "Great Holocron"? I have yet to see where all techniques unique to the KotOR Jedi or previous eras were readily accessible through the Great Holocron. Considering the Great Holocron is made for trainees and any type of Force user further undermines the idea that it contains a boatload of secret techniques that ancient Jedi Masters would have kept in their own private holocrons, which in particular, Arca Jeth and Vodo were known to do.



You're missing something entirely- Odan-Urr had used the technique enough and refined it enough that he felt it terrible and only to be used as a last resort. He then tried this terrible art on Exar Kun who shrugged it off. Knowing the technique does make you more powerful, but if your opponent is one of the most dangerous Dark Lords in Jedi history it's possible that he may resist it. Odan-Urr never gave any indication that the technique had been resisted, and the ease of which Nomi used it on Ulic implies that the technique isn't easily blocked. It has less to do with Odan-Urr being somehow weak and everything to do with Exar Kun being ridiculously strong.



No, I don't have to take Order 66 as part of the battle, because the entire point of bringing up the wars was that wars strengthen Jedi through conflict and help them grow, and Order 66, which is the main thing that decimated the Jedi, not the Clone Wars themselves, didn't leave very many behind to grow from the experience. There's a distinct difference in Jedi being mowed down by droids in a few altercations here and there (But nowhere near as bad as at Geonosis) and then they win the war by being generals and diplomats versus the Jedi Civil War where knowing lightsaber usage was absolutely vital to your existance.



The idea of being more martial equating better personal power seems to be a logical line of thought. The counterargument that you imply (Which is that they are less martial and somehow more powerful for it) begs for some good arguments. Especially when the lightsaber ability of the majority of the PT Order is shown to be woefully inaccurate and the Jedi themselves time and again shown to be unprepared for war and in some cases unable to withstand its effects (Depa, for instance.) The KotOR Jedi Order had been through numerous conflicts involving Jedi versus Sith combat over the course of many years, in addition to fullscale wars such as the Mandalorian Wars, which were far more horrific and total then the Clone Wars.



I'm pointing out that the KotOR Jedi are more experienced in war in general, and in lightsaber combat. And they have been through more conflict, which is shown to be a source of growth and incentive enough to make Jedi excel whereas they could only stagnate in times of peace. The Jedi of the KotOR are Knights who are shown wearing battle armor, fighting their dark rivals and their troops in all manner of battlefields, fighting for their very existance over a three plus year period in a time when a Jedi had more to fear from a Sith's sword then from a droid's blaster bolt. PT Jedi are shown being diplomats, political body guards, and Republic peacekeepers; never soldiers. The masters acknowledge it themselves.



You apparently don't know jack about what you're talking about, tdtd. Traya is shown being force-pushed in the cutscene. There's no characteristic red lightning effect shown every single time someone uses Force drain in the series. So there goes your assertion. Traya notes she was "stripped of her powers", yet she is a fully functioning Force user and not a hollowed husk of dead matter like everyone else in the series who experiences the Force drain of Nihilus. Your argument makes absolutely no sense in light of the evidence.



What in the world are you talking about? Where is there ever an indication of Luke or Yoda encountering a Force drain and defending against it? And to expand on that point twofold: where is there an instance of either Luke or Yoda defending against a Force drain of Nihilus' magnitude, and even if there was, what bearing does it have on the PT Jedi? Luke's not one of them and Yoda is the epitome of the exception to the rule. Of all the Jedi, only Yoda was keen enough to sense Order 66, was keen enough to sense death and despair across the galaxy, down an attacking group of Clone troopers with no effort, etc. When you say "Yoda did this" you pretty much exclude any other PT Jedi, as he's on his own level.

Not all techniques lost, no. But the most dangerous ones... the most "terrible" ones, ones which ancient Jedi masters kept and honed for emergency use only, were kept in private holocrons, most of which are unaccounted for. The Great Holocron has absolutely no security other than a monitor watching the user. I find it doubful that high level Jedi techniques which make for more martial Jedi are squirrelled away in there.

And yes, it is a bit of a bother than Darth Krayt found anything at all, considering the time difference. I'm still not sure how Sidious is supposed to have amassed such a collection considering that Korriban was up for grabs four millennia before he ever stepped foot on the place.



Anakin's increase in skill was due to the war, unless you want to make the assertion that he just happened to get much better while growing older and fighting. Don't be daft.

As for this "son of the Force" bullshit, you can leave that at the door. We have the fleeting word of a desert slave on the father of Anakin, and his massive midi-chlorian rating. Considering that Yoda's the only person in SW history that Anakin's midi-chlorian rating has been compared to, this doesn't make him the best in potential. And certainly, his potential doesn't make him exponentially get stronger by simply being alive; back to the original point, the war made him better. Period.




Lol. So he puffs up his chest and tells the Count that his powers have doubled, ergo it is true? Do you read this stuff before you click submit?



Constantly learning what? How? You mean to tell me that Anakin was somehow breaking open books and taking classes while a Republic-scale war was raging for three years, that and the fact that the Force was paying his child support checks and somehow that equals out to him being stronger in three years? Oh but it had nothing to do with conflict, because that would undermine your pathetic argument.



It's stated right in the original description for Makashi by the creators of the form. It's also all over EU books and sources.



No, it isn't. You should put the pipe down and go find some valid sources. Stop arguing out of your ass for once.



I'm not sure why you think they came into the Jedi Civil War with no Force refinement whatsoever. I mean, look at ToTJ era, forty years earlier... Nomi had barely picked up a lightsaber and Odan-Urr was teaching her how to block a Sith from the Force to protect others. It's quite obvious that they took their studies seriously since the Sith weren't some myth in their era like they were in the PT era. Hell, by TPM the Jedi thought the Sith were all but extinct. Why would they sit around making better dark Jedi fighting abilities when they were policemen who hadn't seen bad times in millennia?



I've heard this from you before, but never with a source attached. I doubt if you have a source, as you seldom do. I don't see how some nebulous source claiming Sidious to be the most powerful dark dude of all time is relevant, considering that the NEC is clearly written by a fallible post-Empire historian and that no other sources are forthcoming which are not subject to interpretation issues. Clearly, nothing's listed RotS Sidious as the best lightsaber fighter of the Sith Order, and if he is, then it stands to reason that Yoda can wipe his green ass with anyone in the history of Star Wars with the saber. And I just find that a bit of a strentch.



You mean the "Great Holocron" that even padawans had access to?



I'm not referencing the KotOR timeframe here, tdtd. You brought the assertion up that Yoda > all for all time in the Jedi Order. This is a pretty tall order, considering it's never been made before and certainly is a stance I wouldn't venture to take. Yoda isn't the best Jedi fighter and master in the Order simply because "no one in the KotOR era seems to beat him in sheer feats and powers", especially considering that of all the Jedi masters in SW EU, Yoda has the most exposure.



It made Mace Windu the only Jedi in the entire PT who could absorb Sith Lightning without expending too much of his own energy, according to Stover's depiction of the events. Yoda was able to repel it, but only by using his own energy. Really, I don't see how this made Mace a better fighter than Yoda. Sure, it added him when he was defending the Sith Lightning, but at that point he had already beaten Sidious. Yoda, for his own part, nearly beat Sidious in their duel and in the end still had the upper hand until the concussion knocked him to the bottom of the senate chamber floor. In either case, Mace and Yoda can defeat a Sith Lord in combat. Other members of the Jedi Order showed remarkable inability to adapt to fighting against other lightsaber users. For example, Jedi Knights and masters in the double digits lost their lives to assajj Ventress, who had no formal Sith training.



I'm saying that their training, their experiences, and their abilities make them more capable in lightsaber/Force-oriented combat than the PT Jedi, and this is obviously very true. I bet that the PT Order has more Soresu practitioners among their ranks for sure, and definately more Niman users, for what that's worth.



This is funny coming from you, a self-professed Star Wars ignoramus. Seriously, your sig states "Fear what you don't understand". You must be one scared little kid.

Correction: This was supposed to be the first half of the debate.



Then why are you swinging it around like it's the gospel truth? If it's not substantiated, how is it a valid point? How does it support your argument that "PT Jedi > All = Canon"?



I said define powerhousein specific terms, DS. Apparently you are incapable of reading. I suggest you sit down, take your time, and have a nearby adult sort out anything that seems too deep for you. Simply listing names doesn't define a word that you've introduced as part of your argument.



Malak's official bio on the old KotOR site.



Strong in the Force in this context obviously means someone who's strong in comparison with the majority, i.e. among the best. I'm surprised you couldn't figure that out on your own, seeing as a nine year old can do it.

As for the Star Forge, if you played KotOR II more than once and paid attention, you'd know that the Star Forge gains its power partially by the star it's attached to, but also it draws on the Force itself. The Rataka people were nearly annihilated because their use of the device reached a point where it could not be controlled. After Revan defeated Malak, Bastila notes (in the Dark side version of KotOR II) that every Sith who tried to use and control the Star Forge was obliterated by its powers. The only two people we see using the artifact without ill effects is Malak and Revan. Even Bastila does not attempt to use the device.



If by "powerhouse" you mean a martially capable Jedi and among the best of his time, then yes. Mandalorians respected honest warriors and anyone who could hold their own in combat was to be admired. Their knowledge of him (When they considered most Jedi to be weak and beneath notice) and their praise of him speaks measures of his abilities. It's similar to the situation where a security guard captain on Haruun Kal recognizes Mace Windu not by face but by his name and states that it's "not such a bad thing" being defeated by him. Mace is, apparently by your description, a "powerhouse". I'm not stating that Kavar is Mace's equal or better; there's nowhere near enough material surrouding Kavar to ever make such a claim. The point remains that Kavar is renowned in his era for his martial prowess, he teaches lightsaber training forms (Including Juyo which is a master's style), uses Jar'Kai masterfully, and survived the Jedi Purge despite being a big target.

Do I think Kavar is a great Jedi in the KotOR timeline? Yes, I do. The Jedi do, and the Mandalorians do. They all accord him respect for his fighting ability.

I will have to interrupt with a few things:
What, exactly are the great feats of the Ancient Jedi Orders to set them above? Comparatively now? Lucas refers directly to the PT Jedi as the 'Prime of the Jedi,' so take that however you will.
What's skeptical here: The Orders has a whole...what sets the KOTOR ones above from the rest? I'll remind you for any bad PT order showing, I could find a few others from the Ancient Jedi (having whole temples wiped out by Krath War Droids for a start)

The most powerful foe the darkness etc etc. bit comes from the ROTS novelization...and it's more than the NEC that lists Palpatine as the most powerful Sith ever.

Though I will say, when we compare orders, I think we've grown to compare 'top people of the Order' rather than anything else, though that Yoda is the most powerful Jedi in history per ROTS is substantiated by several sources, first of which being the ROTS novelization (Stover backs this opinion up, as has Veitch, both of whom citing Lucas as a source for their decision when asked)

Yea lightsnake we all know this, the problem is Janus has a different translation for everything PT. And Janice, I don't really care right now so I'll get to what I hope is a wonderfully written rebuttal, manana.

Btw, Janus, to go a little further on what the PT Jedi did have, besides the Great Holocron:

There's a large, large room full of all known Sith holcorons in existence (Save the ones the Sith Order already had), which only he top masters studied. There's a similarly large room of Jedi holocrons, including Vodo's, Bodo's, Arca's, and many other Jedi of the past. Again, reserved for higher level, so not as strict.

Circa 2000 BBY, There were massive efforts to restore the lost knowledge of the past and keep it preserved. The efforts for the most part, led in part by Phanius who'd later become Darth Ruin, were highly succesful.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
Apparently you have no knowledge of his saber or Force abilities, or else you'd never make such a silly statement. Please, go and actually play the game, tdtd. Find out for yourself.
I've played the games Janice. In fact, I put the shit on god mode because I can't stand RPGS, and play for the storyline, so I am well aware.




What, out of all this mess, makes her a force prodigy? I mean since you like to throw out the term so much, maybe you can substnatiate it. Furthermore, you don't know a damn thing about what she does to Jolee and Juhani, since game play mechanics aren't canon.




Excuse me Janus, but I'd like for you to show me someone OTHER than Malak, that shows considerable power. Being second in Malak's empire makes Bandon powerful? Maybe he IS strong, or maybe he's STRONGER than the rest. We don't see ANYTHING from Malak's empire other than well, Malak.




Gosh Janice, I really take your diagnosis seriously. A powerhouse would be someone who has amazing force abilities and saber abilities. Exar Kun would be a powerhouse, Yoda would be a powerhouse. It amazes me how you try to play stupid..




Again, thank you for your opinion Janice. I'll take it into consideration.




Please list these great techniques that the old Jedi masters knew, and the PT Jedi COULDNT have known (disregarding what Kun knew since most of his techniques died with him).




Wtf? How do you know he used the technique ENOUGH? He said he became ADEPT at this ability during the hyperspace war? I didn't know you were Ms. Cleo. Seriously Janice, for someone that claims to be a brilliant debater and pseudointellectual, you sure like to make shit up.
Odan Urr didn't state there was a defense for it, but I guess he DID prove that a MORE POWERFUL force user could resist it. So what exactly is your point (If you have one)? Nomi used on Ulic, yes. Did you also conveniently forget that Ulic was holding his brother grieving when she struck him from behind with that technique?



So are you telling me that the JCW strengthened the JEdi? Lol




What is inaccurate about the lightsaber abilities of the PT era? You have more prodigies in that category in the PT era than in any other era. What exactly is so innacurate? Let me find you a quote that states that the PT era was the prime of lightsaber combat. Notice how I am not dismissing your argument because it IS a logical line of thought. But it's also inconsistent with the SW universe. Don't blame me, blame the writers.




I'm not denying this point, however it's inconsistent with what's actually going on in the SW universe.




It's not a force push you twit. Nor is it a typical force drain. Notice how Nihilus isn't your typical force user, and his force drain and whatever techniques he has, aren't typical either. As she is getting wtfpwned, she STATES there are certain techniques for which there is no defense. When she tries to reach for her saber with the force and she can't, she states that she was cast down and stripped. So you see Janus, all the evidence points to something other than a force push. But I don't see your ignorance allowing you to consider this point further.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
Not all techniques lost, no. But the most dangerous ones... the most "terrible" ones, ones which ancient Jedi masters kept and honed for emergency use only, were kept in private holocrons, most of which are unaccounted for. The Great Holocron has absolutely no security other than a monitor watching the user. I find it doubful that high level Jedi techniques which make for more martial Jedi are squirrelled away in there.
What techniques do you speak about Janus? If you're going to tell me to explain "powerhouse", I'm going to ask you to explain all of these techniques you're mentioning, or at least some.


This can be attributed to the poor writing of Legacy and of the entire Lucas crew. THe guy just doesn't care anymore. The only logical thought about this would be that Krayt somehow found one if Sidous' secret stash, and plundered it. Otherwise, it would make no sense for him to find these holocrons and for Sidious to have missed them.




Yes, practicing doesn't do anything Janus. It MUST be war..


I don't have to leave it at the door Janus, because as being born of the force, his potential and raw abilities were either limitless, or above everybody else, which would explain how he doubled his power within 3 years (including war and practice). It doesn't make him the best in potential? Since when? I KNOW you've taken biology Janus. The NEC states that either he had the most midichlorians in history, or was born the most powerful in history. Now obviously you can claim the NEC is in universe, but what's your argument that he was born from the Force? Explain how ANYBODY save for luke, could have more potential than him?





I would definitely pose the same question to you, but seeing as how you're hard headed, I would just be wasting my time. IN AOTC he was pwned by the Count and 3 years later, he pwned the count, so yes, his powers increased dramatically. Whether it was double or not is irrelevant, but it wouldn't be a stretch.




As opposed to "oh he didn't practice, it was JUST the war that made him powerful". You're right Janus, in all of that time he didn't pick up a saber to practice, he was at war 24/7. He didn't meditate on the force. I wouldn't be calling anyone's argument pathetic after reading this filth.




As opposed to somebody that argues AGAINST sources and includes his OWN interpretation? Good point Janus.




You're right, why would Yoda train in the force for 800 years and know most jedi/sith techniques, if he thought the sith were extinct. Better safe than sorry?




Right, I NEVER have a source. Don't you claim that about everybody? Or wait, when someone GIVES you a source, it's unsubstantiated or you don't agree with it. Lol, fallible post empire. You find what a bit of a stretch? That Yoda can wipe anyone's ass with a saber? How is that a stretch exactly? Notice how Sidious was 13 years out of practice and he still managed to stalemate possibly the most dangerous lightsaber combatant of the dark side (yes ***** here). I never claimed Sidious was the best lightsaber fighter, but he is definitely one of the top. But it's not a stretch calling ROTS Sidious the most powerful sith ever. Have you read comics such as sithisis?




Then please enlighten me Janus. Since certain quotes such as "strongest foe darkness has ever known" is "unsubstantiated", please make an argument for anybody that CAN beat Yoda, other than DE Sidious and Luke.




Better fighter against the dark side, not a better force user. I really think that you've been smoking too much or something, because you seem to have a completely different interpretation of the fight than myself, Escape, or hell even GL.





Yes, scared little kid. Gosh Janus, you seem to take star wars debating way too seriously. Maybe you should spend some more time at your 9-5. But please, explain to me how I'm a self professed Star Wars ignoramus.. I didn't know not knowing every detail about everything that only people with too much time on their hands know, makes me ignorant. In fact I've repeatedly stated that I argue only WHAT I know based on what SOURCES I have. I often wonder if you know how to read...

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Then please enlighten me Janus. Since certain quotes such as "strongest foe darkness has ever known" is "unsubstantiated", please make an argument for anybody that CAN beat Yoda, other than DE Sidious and Luke.
Yes! Some others can also beat Yoda.

- Darth Traya
- Darth Revan
- Darth Nihilus

Now I will explain how!

Darth Traya:

She knows a very powerful draining technique that can be lethal to most Jedi. She pwned 3 powerful Jedi Masters with a flick of her hand in a matter of few seconds with that technique.

And like Yoda, Traya can also perform Force Wave.

Darth Revan:

This guy is known to have possessed knowledge of some very deadly sith techniques. One such technique is the freaking "Force Lightning Storm."

I don't think that anybody can block a freaking "Force Lightning Storm" with bare hands or even a Light Saber. And when this kind of Lightning hits a living being, it has the intensity to reduce any living organism in to ashes in a very short amount of time. So now you do the math.

And I wish that Drew reveals the names of some other very deadly techniques that Revan knew in his future comics.

Darth Nihilus:

This guy knows a Force Killer technique that can kill an entire planet. I don't think that Yoda can defend against this kind of technique either.

So there are indeed some other people who can beat Yoda. Thus despite being referred to as "The greatest foe that darkness has seen" which he is obviously not, I don't think that he can be defeated by only two people in the entire SW Universe.

We've been round and round with this before, LeGenD. Yoda was confirmed by a source of higher authority than any you've just cited to be the "the most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known".

If you don't like it, you'll have to refute it. Sadly, you're dealing with a G-canon source there.

Originally posted by Gideon
We've been round and round with this before, LeGenD. Yoda was confirmed by a source of higher authority than any you've just cited to be the "the most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known".

If you don't like it, you'll have to refute it. Sadly, you're dealing with a G-canon source there.
And the next line "he did not had it" also matters.

That line is true in the sense that Yoda is indeed among the most powerful Jedi that we have ever seen but it is indeed hyperbolic in terms of claiming that only Yoda is the greatest foe that darkness has ever seen.

And there are indeed some other people who can defeat Yoda apart from DE Sidious and Luke.

I'm sorry, LeGenD, but that line doesn't matter, or factor into this at all. The quote -- directed by the omniscient narrator of a G-canon source -- states explicitly that Yoda is "the most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known". What does this mean? It means that Yoda is simply more powerful than any light-sider or Jedi that came before him. Not that he is necessarily more powerful than any dark-sider or Sith Lord before him.



Again, I'm sorry but I'm afraid this is not the case. It simply means that Yoda is more powerful than any Jedi or light-side user before him.



Perhaps. But, again, that doesn't necessarily make them stronger than he is. Mace Windu defeated Darth Sidious, but he is not more powerful than him. In that context, you might have a point. But otherwise? You don't have much to work with.

That's a very interesting viewpoint I hadn't seen before.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD


Darth Traya:

She knows a very powerful draining technique that can be lethal to most Jedi. She pwned 3 powerful Jedi Masters with a flick of her hand in a matter of few seconds with that technique. Powerful jedi masters in what sense? They have yet to do anything impressive or anything which makes them even look powerful. If i recall kavar lost to malak easily.

And again yoda is a powerful force user, Its highly unlikely kreias force drain will kill him quickly as he can resist it or defend against it with a force shield.

Kreia has her strong attacks. Yoda has his massive TK







Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

This guy knows a Force Killer technique that can kill an entire planet. I don't think that Yoda can defend against this kind of technique either.

And its safe to assume yoda knows the fallanasi technique as he has been studying the force for 800 years, its highly likely he met the fallanasi during that 800 year period. Didnt tholme have the fallanasi technique?


And legend. Im not argueing yoda > those 3 you mentioned.

I am more than aware of the entire passage, LeGenD, but thank you for taking the time to post it here. The statement in question was given by the omniscient narrator about Yoda's own realization. That he was unable to defeat Darth Sidious does not contradict the quote itself, and that is the point you have been trying to make.



This is uncompromisingly false. Yoda has more than enough power to defeat "a very powerful dark sider", just not Sidious. Moreover, it isn't that he couldn't have beaten Sidious -- they battled on equal terms -- it's just that he didn't. Yoda was destined to retreat, Sidious was destined to ascend. But the Dark Lord did not overpower the Jedi Master himself.



No, the only thing "out of proportion" is your elaboration.



No, it is not an assumption. He was the best before Luke, as directed by the omniscient narrator of a G-canon source.



Indeed. The point is that that group is very small, and it is possible that people like Revan and Nihilus could overcome Yoda. But they aren't "more powerful" than he is.

In Inferno, Jacen severs Ben from the Force-and reconnects him later- pretty easily.

Originally posted by Gideon
Indeed. The point is that that group is very small, and it is possible that people like Revan and Nihilus could overcome Yoda. But they aren't "more powerful" than he is.
Since you agree with my main point of view, the case is settled then.

I agree that very small number of people can ovecome Yoda.

And Revan and Nihilus might not be more powerful then Yoda but they are indeed very dangerous foes for him because of an obvious reason stated before.