kingpin vs.........

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capt it up
who can the kingpin trake in simply h2h ?

like can he take the likes of captain america or spiderman or daredevil or wolverine and so on?

llagrok
Beak.

guy222
Originally posted by capt it up
who can the kingpin trake in simply h2h ?

like can he take the likes of captain america or spiderman or daredevil or wolverine and so on?

antman

charlemagne9746
Karate Kid

Grinning Goku
Mr. Immortal.

Lethal_Rise
antman, karate kid and mr. immortal would destroy him wtf?

DigiMark007
Kingpin is on par with most high-end street levelers. He has wrecked Cap, Red Skull, Batman, etc. in H2H, and that was even when Cap had his shield.

Like it or not, somehow Marvel made it that he's beyond peak human in terms of strength, speed, and durability. Early (pre-upgrade) Spider-Man would routinely lose to KP unless he had some sort of plot device....and even then, KP simply has a few legit wins over Spidey.

So of the ones capt mentioned, current Spidey would wreck him, Wolverine's debatable because of the healing factor, but Daredevil and Cap would get told.

...it's a bit rough, however, since KP hasn't fought much in years. Most of his feats are from his "Classic" era. Now, there's no difference between then and now...no special retcons or downgrades. But Marvel has made him more of a planner than a fighter in recent years. So it's reasonable to assume he might not be at classic levels, but we really don't know.

golem370
Beast might be a good fight for him

llagrok
When using his batons, Daredevil should definitely take the majority against Kingpin. He has had a lot of good feats lately, like taking out Wolverine in hand to hand during "agent of hydra" and so on.

DigiMark007
Originally posted by llagrok
When using his batons, Daredevil should definitely take the majority against Kingpin. He has had a lot of good feats lately, like taking out Wolverine in hand to hand during "agent of hydra" and so on.

I would respectfully disagree. If KP is written like he was back in the day, he was every bit Spider-Man's equal. And even classic Spidey is >>> DD.

Currently, you may be right, especially because KP is a recurring figure in DD comics.

llagrok
Originally posted by DigiMark007
I would respectfully disagree. If KP is written like he was back in the day, he was every bit Spider-Man's equal. And even classic Spidey is >>> DD.

Currently, you may be right, especially because KP is a recurring figure in DD comics.

Although it's unfair to match up a villain against a comic's main character, I don't think that classic spidey would take Daredevil. Daredevil has great martial arts skills and heightened senses. I think you're taking the old comics a bit too seriously. A lot of things were very undefined and such back then.

Like Wolverine and Nightcrawler's appearances in the old Iron Fist comic, it's just pure nonsense. Wolverine looks like the feral Shi'ar member.

Anyways, most of KP feats are based off very old comics and crossovers where I think they thought of him as someone who was superhuman. This was retconned and he's a peak human.

Hercules
KP has never been retconned??

Old comics are no less viable than new ones, they printed comics before 1990 you know and they were good too!

Hes always been classed as peak human strength but has feats that supass anything a peak human can do.

He schooled DD and Spiderman, Red Skull in a cloned caps body couldn't take him hand to hand.

He is and always has been a beast hand to hand and hes never been termed superhuman thoughout his history hes just big and strong and tough.

llagrok
Originally posted by Hercules
KP has never been retconned??

Old comics are no less viable than new ones, they printed comics before 1990 you know and they were good too!

Hes always been classed as peak human strength but has feats that supass anything a peak human can do.

He schooled DD and Spiderman, Red Skull in a cloned caps body couldn't take him hand to hand.

He is and always has been a beast hand to hand and hes never been termed superhuman thoughout his history hes just big and strong and tough.

Digi said that he was above peak human, which I disagreed with.

Old comics, you mean the ones where Professor X could bend steel girders with his mind? Those are all fine and dandy, just don't take them TOO seriously. Old comics are great, but the power descriptions can be very vague.

Hercules
Originally posted by llagrok
Digi said that he was above peak human, which I disagreed with.

Old comics, you mean the ones where Professor X could bend steel girders with his mind? Those are all fine and dandy, just don't take them TOO seriously. Old comics are great, but the power descriptions can be very vague.

Are you for real? confused

Who takes comics seriously at all??

Kingpin has feats that suggest he is stronger than Peak Human, just like Bullet another DD foe who was meant to be human has strength feats that suggest other wise.

And how old are you saying is old? Kingpin vs Red Skull was 1990ish during the streets of poison arc in Captain America.

How are the power descriptions vague? the guys that wrote the comics back then created the characters, you telling me Stan lee doesn't know what the Hulk is capable of for instance?

Modern comics are so much better? when you have guys randomly apearing back from the dead with no explanation other than some writer thought it would be cool.

You want me to take that more seriously, you can't dismiss evidence based on the time the comic was written, canon is canon no matter how old it is.

Kingpin has been written pretty concistently throughout his history and him beating Spiderman, DD, Cap and Skull are cannon and they did happen.

llagrok
Yes, they are canon, but sometimes they're still full of bullshit smile
Stan lee had Professor X bend steel girders and he had Emma Frost shoot a hole in the wall with her telepathy. Does that mean they can do it today? No, no it doesn't.

As much as I love Stan Lee, he can still be wrong. Did they even have a proper definition of peak human back then? and is it the same as it is today? They could've been different.

Hercules
Originally posted by llagrok
Yes, they are canon, but sometimes they're still full of bullshit smile
Stan lee had Professor X bend steel girders and he had Emma Frost shoot a hole in the wall with her telepathy. Does that mean they can do it today? No, no it doesn't.

As much as I love Stan Lee, he can still be wrong. Did they even have a proper definition of peak human back then? and is it the same as it is today? They could've been different.

Wait, the people that created the universe write something and you write it off as BS confused

Peak human has been described as far back as the early 80s as 800lbs lifting strength.

Man, you really are reaching here and how is say Prof X bending a steel girder once in a comic the same as KingPin repeatedly showing he has the ability to take it to highly skilled Martial artists and guys who are superhumanly strong and fast?

Something happening once can be written off as PIS, something happening again and again over a period of years can not.

llagrok
Originally posted by Hercules
Wait, the people that created the universe write something and you write it off as BS confused

Peak human has been described as far back as the early 80s as 800lbs lifting strength.

Man, you really are reaching here and how is say Prof X bending a steel girder once in a comic the same as KingPin repeatedly showing he has the ability to take it to highly skilled Martial artists and guys who are superhumanly strong and fast?

Something happening once can be written off as PIS, something happening again and again over a period of years can not.

You need to stop looking for things to disagree with mate.

I already told you that I agree with Kingpin being peak human is reasonable, I only stated that his showing against classic spidey is BS, because peak humans aren't stronger than classic spidey. Old comics have a lot of things like this, that's all I'm saying.

Hercules
Originally posted by llagrok
You need to stop looking for things to disagree with mate.

I already told you that I agree with Kingpin being peak human is reasonable, I only stated that his showing against classic spidey is BS, because peak humans aren't stronger than classic spidey. Old comics have a lot of things like this, that's all I'm saying.

Stop giving me things to disagree with then, it isn't one showing, its a lot of showings over a period of years, which means its consistant which means its very much not BS.

What your calling BS is actually, I don't like it, it didn't happen.

Problem is you haven't even read the issues on question yet still your calling BS on them.

Your argument has no basis on evidence, just your personal opinion, Digi's argument which I support is based on, on panel evidence shown over a number of issues over a number of years.

And Instead of walking away or agreeing to disagree you continue to tout your opinion as fact and try to force it on others.

llagrok
Originally posted by Hercules
Stop giving me things to disagree with then, it isn't one showing, its a lot of showings over a period of years, which means its consistant which means its very much not BS.

What your calling BS is actually, I don't like it, it didn't happen.

Problem is you haven't even read the issues on question yet still your calling BS on them.

Your argument has no basis on evidence, just your personal opinion, Digi's argument which I support is based on, on panel evidence shown over a number of issues over a number of years.

And Instead of walking away or agreeing to disagree you continue to tout your opinion as fact and try to force it on others.

Right, so in your opinion peak humans can overpower class 5 characters and such? Logic.

I'm calling BS on it because it doesn't make sense, there aren't too many showings of Kingpin actually overpowering spiderman.

First you said that he was and has always been a peak human, but now you're saying that you agree with Digi who said that he was above peak human. Hmm, that's a bit confusing. Mind clearing that up?

Hercules
Originally posted by llagrok
Right, so in your opinion peak humans can overpower class 5 characters and such? Logic.

I'm calling BS on it because it doesn't make sense, there aren't too many showings of Kingpin actually overpowering spiderman.

First you said that he was and has always been a peak human, but now you're saying that you agree with Digi who said that he was above peak human. Hmm, that's a bit confusing. Mind clearing that up?

If you read my posts I have cleared it up, he is labeled as peak human but has feats that suggest otherwise.

There are enough showings for it not to be BS, your way of debating seems to be veiled insults and scarcasm, nice skills you have there.

On panel evidence suggests that Kingpin has some degree of Superhuman strength, marvels official line is that he has the strength of a man of his height and build who engages in intensive physical exercise.

And that is how it has always been, if he had managed to beat Spiderman the once, I would be right alongside you calling PIS, when hes doing it consistantly and Spiderman is needing a plot device to win, you can't call PIS anymore.

Digi is stating that on panel evidence suggests he is above peak human, I agree with that statement but he has never been said to be such.

llagrok
Originally posted by Hercules
There are enough showings for it not to be BS, your way of debating seems to be veiled insults and scarcasm, nice skills you have there.

Oh sweet Irony.

Actual feats aren't ALWAYS right. Daredevil took down Wolverine is about as many shots as Namor did. This doesn't necessarily mean that Daredevil is stronger.

How many cases do you have of Kingpin overpowering Spidey in the 90s? Scans please.

DigiMark007
Originally posted by llagrok
Oh sweet Irony.

Actual feats aren't ALWAYS right.

No, but the fact remains that pretty much EVERY H2H showing KP has puts him well above peak human.

Claiming retcons is just plain false. You can believe whatever you want, but there's feats within the last decade or so that still have him at these levels, and there's never really been evidence to the contrary with him.

So, to make him "peak human" you'd basically have to ignore his entire canon and declare a retcon that doesn't exist.

llagrok
Originally posted by DigiMark007
No, but the fact remains that pretty much EVERY H2H showing KP has puts him well above peak human.

Claiming retcons is just plain false. You can believe whatever you want, but there's feats within the last decade or so that still have him at these levels, and there's never really been evidence to the contrary with him.

So, to make him "peak human" you'd basically have to ignore his entire canon and declare a retcon that doesn't exist.

What feats in the recent decade put him above peak human strength?

DigiMark007
Originally posted by llagrok
What feats in the recent decade put him above peak human strength?

What feats don't?

See, that's the point. Nothing has ever been retconned with him, so the burden of proof is on those who feel he's less than his "classic" levels, since all of those feats are still valid.

Hercules
Originally posted by llagrok
Oh sweet Irony.

Actual feats aren't ALWAYS right. Daredevil took down Wolverine is about as many shots as Namor did. This doesn't necessarily mean that Daredevil is stronger.

How many cases do you have of Kingpin overpowering Spidey in the 90s? Scans please.


Yes Irony indeed, I don't recall throwing any inuslts your way, just pointing out that you were debating on opinion not evidence.

The onus on proof is not on me or Digi, its on you, your first tactic was to throw a non exsistant retcon out there.

What do the 90's matter, so anything before you were born is BS now?

llagrok
Originally posted by Hercules
Yes Irony indeed, I don't recall throwing any inuslts your way, just pointing out that you were debating on opinion not evidence.

The onus on proof is not on me or Digi, its on you, your first tactic was to throw a non exsistant retcon out there.

What do the 90's matter, so anything before you were born is BS now?

You haven't been reading my posts at all.

Marvel stated that he was peak human, so how can you explain him beating Spidey? Either it's PIS, Spidey holding back or Marvel did a mistake. Back in the 70s Marvel did a lot of mistakes like this, when it came to power and strength levels. Which is why I don't think that Digi should take those feats too seriously, because Marvel has put him at peak strength and the feats that claim otherwise are from times when these mistakes weren't uncommon.

Namor was capable of using electricity, we had a crappy definition of telepathy and so on. The Wrecking crew also knocked out Hulk in one punch, this doesn't necessarily mean that they are stronger than him.

I have no problem with Kingpin being above peak human, but that doesn't really make any sense, now does it? If anything, I think he's gotten weaker lately. Not counting Civil War one shot, have you ever seen him in a fight since 1990?

DigiMark007
When did Marvel state he was peak human? And if it's a Handbook, then I hope you're aware that about 98% of handbook entries are horribly inconsistent and wrong and aren't made by actual comic writers.

Hercules
Originally posted by llagrok
You haven't been reading my posts at all.

Marvel stated that he was peak human, so how can you explain him beating Spidey? Either it's PIS, Spidey holding back or Marvel did a mistake. Back in the 70s Marvel did a lot of mistakes like this, when it came to power and strength levels. Which is why I don't think that Digi should take those feats too seriously, because Marvel has put him at peak strength and the feats that claim otherwise are from times when these mistakes weren't uncommon.

Namor was capable of using electricity, we had a crappy definition of telepathy and so on. The Wrecking crew also knocked out Hulk in one punch, this doesn't necessarily mean that they are stronger than him.

I have no problem with Kingpin being above peak human, but that doesn't really make any sense, now does it? If anything, I think he's gotten weaker lately. Not counting Civil War one shot, have you ever seen him in a fight since 1990?

Marvel is full of mistakes now, lightening in outer space and BP putting an armbar on surfer spring to mind.

No I have been reading you posts and like I said if it was a one time deal I would call BS too but its not, its been consistantly written that way.

So if he has had very few physical fights since 1990 then that means hes weaker?

Or maybe they just shifted his character to be more behind the scenes?

Handbooks yes have stated Kingpin to be human and I have never seen him termed Superhuman in comics but his feats show otherwise, again PIS and BSn do happen, a lot more now than ever before imo but if something is consistently shown then it ceases to be PIS.

DigiMark007
Originally posted by Hercules
if something is consistently shown then it ceases to be PIS.

yes

...my point all along.

He's bent steel and and done other things that people like Cap or DD simply can't, even beyond his impressive victory list. And it's not all in the 70's.

capt it up
I not sure how it debatable wolverine vs kingpin I mean what is kingpin better at then wolverine? I not seen a single stat I give any edge to kingpin in.


also llagrok it was enemy of the stat and DD never beat wolverine a plot device knocked wolverine back into the drivers seat. What you have been using as evidence was false.

I think kingpin vs capt is debatable for the most part it seems it could go either way.

llagrok
Originally posted by capt it up
I not sure how it debatable wolverine vs kingpin I mean what is kingpin better at then wolverine? I not seen a single stat I give any edge to kingpin in.

also llagrok it was enemy of the stat and DD never beat wolverine a plot device knocked wolverine back into the drivers seat. What you have been using as evidence was false.

I think kingpin vs capt is debatable for the most part it seems it could go either way.

What I have been using as evidence is false, oh noes.

Calm down mate, raging Wolverine fanboyism hasn't been cool since the 80s

capt it up
Originally posted by llagrok
What I have been using as evidence is false, oh noes.

Calm down mate, raging Wolverine fanboyism hasn't been cool since the 80s
I am calm. Nothing I said was anything but calm. What I said were you been using false information which was true.

Your sad attempt tp attack me just failled as always.


You need to learn to stop talking out your back end.

When you get caught talking out your back end you need to except it and not attack the person who is merely telling you what you have said was false.

So please grow up.

Nothing I said was rabbid fanboyism in the least, but again you show your self to be a little boy.

so read the issues before speaking and get the titles correct.

Kingpin is peakihuman to superhuman levels in every area for starters and his feats prove it.

DigiMark007
Originally posted by capt it up
I not sure how it debatable wolverine vs kingpin I mean what is kingpin better at then wolverine? I not seen a single stat I give any edge to kingpin in.


also llagrok it was enemy of the stat and DD never beat wolverine a plot device knocked wolverine back into the drivers seat. What you have been using as evidence was false.

I think kingpin vs capt is debatable for the most part it seems it could go either way.

He's >> Logan in strength. That's what we've said probably a dozen times.

Beyond that, I said personally in another thread that I have no problem with Wolverine beating KP in a regular fight, or even in a no-claws fight, due to his healing factor.

I've never been trying to make a case for KP being better than your boy...just attempting him to get the respect he deserves. Because KP would completely ruin guys like Cap. Period.

capt it up
Originally posted by DigiMark007
He's >> Logan in strength. That's what we've said probably a dozen times.

Beyond that, I said personally in another thread that I have no problem with Wolverine beating KP in a regular fight, or even in a no-claws fight, due to his healing factor.

I've never been trying to make a case for KP being better than your boy...just attempting him to get the respect he deserves. Because KP would completely ruin guys like Cap. Period.
see here were I disagree.

What are kingpin strength feats that put him over wolverine? Becuase I like to see them.

I no problems with KP getting his respect he a bad ass, but I think your over doing it with the ruining capt part. Kingpins feats don't really out shine capts. Capts stats are extremely similar. Kingpin wins the majority probly, but ruining capt I not sure about that.

strengthkills
Originally posted by Hercules
something is consistently shown then it ceases to be PIS. i like this guys logic

llagrok
Originally posted by capt it up
see here were I disagree.

What are kingpin strength feats that put him over wolverine? Becuase I like to see them.

I no problems with KP getting his respect he a bad ass, but I think your over doing it with the ruining capt part. Kingpins feats don't really out shine capts. Capts stats are extremely similar. Kingpin wins the majority probly, but ruining capt I not sure about that.

Enough with the fanboyism, it's common knowledge that you're a Wolverine fanboy.

Daredevil beat him, live with it.

DigiMark007
Originally posted by capt it up
Becuase I like to see them.

Do I really need to copy/paste half the respect thread into here before you'll consider my viewpoint? Yeah, no thanks. He was murdering Cap in a H2H battle, so you're either choosing to ignore that, or you just haven't read any of it...which would make your "I know KP's a beast, but...etc etc." nothing more than speculation.

He'd lose to Wolverine. But he's stronger.

strengthkills
Originally posted by llagrok
Enough with the fanboyism, it's common knowledge that you're a Wolverine fanboy.

Daredevil beat him, live with it. but yet someone as powerful as hulk has trouble with him.....PIS

capt it up
Originally posted by llagrok
Enough with the fanboyism, it's common knowledge that you're a Wolverine fanboy.

Daredevil beat him, live with it.
What have I even said that was fanboyish? Do you enjoy looking foolish?


You said DD beat wolverine like Namor did but in fewer shots........


DD never beat wolverine with punches in that issue of enemy of the state. Actaully all DD manage to do was hit Logan with a weight and Logan tripped over a hand ninjas legg and fell on a sword.......

Logan was still able to fight, but he had regained controll of his own body.

Thats not even a win for DD thats simply a very luck scenerio for the hurt DD.

honestly if your gunna use an issue to prove your point at least read the dam thing before hand.


still waiting for what I have said that was fanboyish.

by the way your known on the boards for talking out your ass. I rather be known as a wolverine fan boy then being known for talking out my ass such as your self.

also even if I am a wolverine fanboy as you put it. How does that discredit what I have to say? It does not.

If any thing you should be listening to me when, I am telling you your recalling the issue incorrectly.

capt it up
Originally posted by DigiMark007
Do I really need to copy/paste half the respect thread into here before you'll consider my viewpoint? Yeah, no thanks. He was murdering Cap in a H2H battle, so you're either choosing to ignore that, or you just haven't read any of it...which would make your "I know KP's a beast, but...etc etc." nothing more than speculation.

He'd lose to Wolverine. But he's stronger.
so your un willing to prove kingpin stronger? I wanna see or get the issue number of a strength feat or two from kingpin that put him over wolverines level of strength.

If you won't prove it I am going to assume it untrue.

Yes he did beat capt ive seen the issue however you of all people should know one comic does not prove one characters beter then another. It over all feats of the characters and there shown levels.

for example in DD firts fight with capt he beat capt in 3 pannels yet we all know thats not a likly out come. Also in a later fight DD did not do nearly so well.

DigiMark007
Wow. Nothing like a good reminder of why I stopped posting in the vs. forum, eh?

Assuming that you're right until I post scans is ludicrous. First, I made the respect thread....so if you're going to call me lazy for not posting sh*t, then you're just as lazy for not clicking a few times and seeing the thread I took hours digging through issues and scanning into my computer. Second, probably more importantly, I've listed feats of his numerous times in this thread, all of which you've ignored to try and "prove" your point.

Assuming you're right until you see the scans isn't good debating. Assuming what I say is untrue, not taking me for my word when it's obvious I'm not just spouting BS, and and being forward enough to call me "unwilling to prove he's stronger" (your words, not mine) is indeed poor debating.

And call me old school, but I always hated it when people shoved a billion scans down my throat in threads to try and get me to see their point. I was more a fan of rational debate that involved those feats, with maybe one or two thrown in. So I was trying to keep things more respectable by not simply copying my post.

But at this point, it seems to be the only thing that will work, so someone can copy my thread into here if they want to see what I'd write next if I cared enough to visit this thread again.

StyleTime
I'm doing this just for sake of the thread moving on.

Overpowers Spiderman in each of these.
http://img263.imageshack.us/my.php?image=694zp1.jpg

http://img131.imageshack.us/my.php?image=1634ip7.jpg
http://img395.imageshack.us/my.php?image=1635ra3.jpg

http://img73.imageshack.us/my.php?image=602ol0.jpg

This is a deadlock, but still impressive.
http://img352.imageshack.us/my.php?image=514rs9.jpg

Opens a vault door. Check how much effort it takes Daredevil to budge it.
http://img247.imageshack.us/my.php?image=daredevil17113rf3.jpg
http://img295.imageshack.us/my.php?image=daredevil17114xj1.jpg

Not really a strength feat, but you can't mention Kingpin and not bring up the pimp slap.
http://img339.imageshack.us/my.php?image=1644qm0.jpg

These are all courtesy of DigiMark007.

jollyjim311
Has Kingpin ever been shot by a handgun? I'm curious as to see what would happen. I mean, he's supposed to be just an intensely powerful human, but a guy who can take class 10 shots and a two handed over hand swing with a billy club to the back of the skull and be completely uneffected seems like handguns wouldn't hurt him.

Oh well, he'd be the type to wear Kevlar anyways.

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