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all right, so we've all seen it -- dc has just posted the most recent example of this type of stupidity -- cap (with spidey) PUNCHING OUT the hulk. we all know what wolverine has done, and deathstroke. there are LOADS of others.

so, here is my question: is it possible for a street level guy (and no, spidey is NOT street) to LEGITIMATELY and BELIEVEABLY defeat a cl100 character in h2h battle? do you think cl100 guys should just be able to destroy any street leveler?

i've my own thoughts but i don't want to steal anyone's thunder and i'm curious to hear others.

If they have some sort of a weakness, yeah, but in terms of pure strength, its stupid how they have Hulk lose to Cap. They can outwit them, if you count that, but someone like Superman shouldn't be hurt by Green Arrow's punch or something.

A peak human (or less) punching a class 100 character should be the equivalent of a toddler punching an elephant.

Its very possible

Batman proves day in, and day out that it can be done.

But he's the god damned Batman, got it now son?!

Originally posted by leonidas
all right, so we've all seen it -- dc has just posted the most recent example of this type of stupidity -- cap (with spidey) PUNCHING OUT the hulk. we all know what wolverine has done, and deathstroke. there are LOADS of others.

so, here is my question: is it possible for a street level guy (and no, spidey is NOT street) to LEGITIMATELY and BELIEVEABLY defeat a cl100 character in h2h battle? do you think cl100 guys should just be able to destroy any street leveler?

i've my own thoughts but i don't want to steal anyone's thunder and i'm curious to hear others.

The only way they actually have a chance is creative use of their environs

Beyond that the fact that a CL100 character would kill any street leveler in a single shot pretty much ends the fight.

I'd give a few wins to the shrimp if they have a plot device among their regular power set, like Wolverine's claws/healing factor, coupled with a speed edge, and an obvious skill advantage.

And even then it's dubious.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
The only way they actually have a chance is creative use of their environs

Beyond that the fact that a CL100 character would kill any street leveler in a single shot pretty much ends the fight. Grundy tried that, and got beat by Batman's fists...
Not even skill was used, just brute force.

Originally posted by Jebus reborn
Grundy tried that, and got beat by Batman's fists...
Not even skill was used, just brute force.

I don't follow.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
I don't follow. Batman beats class 100's.

I think Grundy punched Batman from behind, and then got his ass kicked.
It's not going to take just one punch.

Originally posted by Jebus reborn
Grundy tried that, and got beat by Batman's fists...
Not even skill was used, just brute force.

Doesn't necessarily mean that it should've happened

But yeah, take Colossus showings in New x-men. Even though he's not a class 100, he still doesn't take a lot of damage from them. I'd like to see Cap try and gut punch him.

Also, check the latest initiative for the Thing's battle. Class 100s aren't supposed to go down against peak human class people.

Originally posted by llagrok
Doesn't necessarily mean that it should've happened

But yeah, take Colossus showings in New x-men. Even though he's not a class 100, he still doesn't take a lot of damage from them. I'd like to see Cap try and gut punch him.

Also, check the latest initiative for the Thing's battle. Class 100s aren't supposed to go down against peak human class people. It did though, and Batman consistently proves it.
If you have super powers, you're going to taste boot one of these days.

Colossus is a 100 tonner though... plus Colossus is extremely durable, bad comparison.
Thing as well.

Iron Fist and Wolverine are the only street level characters that can take down CL100s.

outa curiosity what would we class ghost rider?

Originally posted by outavodka
outa curiosity what would we class ghost rider?

Lowish Herald probably srug

Heard he got a major upgrade awhile ago.

Originally posted by Jebus reborn
Grundy tried that, and got beat by Batman's fists...
Not even skill was used, just brute force.
Grundy fluctuates like crazy though. Any proof he was actually Class 100 when this happened?

Originally posted by Lucid Lui
Grundy fluctuates like crazy though. Any proof he was actually Class 100 when this happened? He was strong?





















































That's all I got...


What about Gorilla Grodd then?

Originally posted by AcousticDoc
Iron Fist and Wolverine are the only street level characters that can take down CL100s. Cap and Bats would disagree.

Originally posted by leonidas
all right, so we've all seen it -- dc has just posted the most recent example of this type of stupidity -- cap (with spidey) PUNCHING OUT the hulk. we all know what wolverine has done, and deathstroke. there are LOADS of others.

so, here is my question: is it possible for a street level guy (and no, spidey is NOT street) to LEGITIMATELY and BELIEVEABLY defeat a cl100 character in h2h battle? do you think cl100 guys should just be able to destroy any street leveler?

i've my own thoughts but i don't want to steal anyone's thunder and i'm curious to hear others. Let me put it to you this way. If your body can take bullets and you can rip a normal humans' arms out of their socket with your pinky finger no street level should ever effect you.

This goes for the class 1-2 guys as well. It's probably the biggest and most overused stupid comic book ploy. To think that with enough training you can overcome that large a gap in power is ridiculous.

Suspension of disbelief is common among all comics. Thats what gives characters like Batman, Wolverine, and Captain America there thunder. The more popular the character is along with the preferences of the writer determine the characters standing in most comics. This enables characters like Deathstroke, Spiderman or Black Panther to perform as well as they do with top tiers. As far as my opinion goes, it is rather necessary( if done correctly) for these occurrences to keep a majority audience attracted to a character despite their short comings in various fights. Can it be done believeably? (probably not) but thats one of the attractions to the comic genre in that no fight (no matter how lopsided) is set in stone.

Originally posted by leonidas
all right, so we've all seen it -- dc has just posted the most recent example of this type of stupidity -- cap (with spidey) PUNCHING OUT the hulk. we all know what wolverine has done, and deathstroke. there are LOADS of others.

so, here is my question: is it possible for a street level guy (and no, spidey is NOT street) to LEGITIMATELY and BELIEVEABLY defeat a cl100 character in h2h battle? do you think cl100 guys should just be able to destroy any street leveler?

i've my own thoughts but i don't want to steal anyone's thunder and i'm curious to hear others.

Originally posted by Newjak
Let me put it to you this way. If your body can take bullets and you can rip a normal humans' arms out of their socket with your pinky finger no street level should ever effect you.

This goes for the class 1-2 guys as well. It's probably the biggest and most overused stupid comic book ploy. To think that with enough training you can overcome that large a gap in power is ridiculous.

The only reason why it doesnt make any sense is if a character has not done it on a regular basis.

I just found out recently that Thor has WW syndrome. The guy take 100,000 tons of blunt force trauma but can be hurt by a bullet or sharp objects, I suspect hes not the only person in class 100 who can do this. That is also ridiculous. It could be argued even if you dont believe that Cap can KO the Hulk with his fists he can do it with his shield. Since the shield is indesctructible and Cap can throw it quite fast.

Its a comicbook they have their own laws of physics somehow top tier MAs can beat people in class 100. In all fairness I think its unlikely Cap will KO the real heavy hitters but I think he has a chance against low level class 100s.

Originally posted by Alfheim
The only reason why it doesnt make any sense is if a character has not done it on a regular basis.

I just found out recently that Thor has WW syndrome. The guy take 100,000 tons of blunt force trauma but can be hurt by a bullet or sharp objects, I suspect hes not the only person in class 100 who can do this. That is also ridiculous. It could be argued even if you dont believe that Cap can KO the Hulk with his fists he can do it with his shield. Since the shield is indesctructible and Cap can throw it quite fast.

Its a comicbook they have their own laws of physics somehow top tier MAs can beat people in class 100. In all fairness I think its unlikely Cap will KO the real heavy hitters but I think he has a chance against low level class 100s. The question wasn't ahs these thing happened. The have the question this thread posed was should this happen.

No street level MA no matter how skilled should in reality ever even get a class 100 to notice their attacks.

Even with a shield like Caps the metal does nothing it is the force behind it that matters. In reality to someone like Hulk Cap would get the same result with his shield as if he was hitting him with brass knuckles.

Nerve strikes only work if the person is strong enough ot actually effect them. Think if a baby hits an elephant in a pressure point is it really going to effect the elephant no it won't.

What if I could kick the elephant in his family jewels?

Originally posted by Newjak

Even with a shield like Caps the metal does nothing it is the force behind it that matters. In reality to someone like Hulk Cap would get the same result with his shield as if he was hitting him with brass knuckles.



Ok in reality class 100s should be able to:

1. Flex their muscles and create powerful preesure waves. Some agree some disagree.

2. Should be able to jump out of orbit at supersonic speed.

3. should not be hurt by bullets.

4. Bruce Banner should be dead due to radiation.

Why are you talking about reality when so much of it does not fit reality? If you think about it your are picking and choosing what aspects make sense and those that do not.

No it shoudln't happen but yes it does happen.

There is a lot of suspension of disbelief in comics, thats why they are works of fiction after all.

Cap punching out the hulk without the use of skill just his own brute force is PIS yes but it did happen, what makes it even more PIS is the fact that in the past Cap has flat out said he couldn't beat the Hulk but could keep him busy.

However it does happen and will continue to happen but it shouldn't I have seen guys who have black belts get decimated in a pub fight by someone who has virtually no skill at all but is a hell of a lot bigger and an out an out brawler.

However in the comic world "Martial Arts" (and by martial arts they are refering to those arts from the eastern world even though the term Martial Arts encompases any art that is used to fight.) equals the ultimate equaliser it allows normal humans to roll with and block punches that would go through steel.

As has been said this isn't real life, if it was most of our favourite heroes would be dead by now and villians wouldn't monologue and allow the Hero to recover.

If for instance you read a comic and it stayed close to what we equate real life to be then as soon as the Hulk connected with a punch to a street levers face most of the time that face would evaporate in a cloud of blood, brains and bone fragments.

But Marital arts skill in the comic world is the plot device that is used to say why this doesn't happen and on the whole I can live with that, its only really bad writing when the street level seems to out brawl someone hundreds of times stronger than them, as seen in the recent Loeb fight.

In conclusion, it shouldn't happen, it does and it will continue to do so.

Originally posted by Jebus reborn
It did though, and Batman consistently proves it.
If you have super powers, you're going to taste boot one of these days.

Colossus is a 100 tonner though... plus Colossus is extremely durable, bad comparison.
Thing as well.

What Marvel class 100 aren't extremely durable?

Originally posted by Alfheim
Why are you talking about reality when so much of it does not fit reality? If you think about it your are picking and choosing what aspects make sense and those that do not. No I'm not.

The question posed was should MA's be enough to help street levelrs take down class 100s. I answered the question was all and the answer is no.

This has nothing to do with me nitpicking comics I was simply answering the question being asked.

Originally posted by Jebus reborn
It did though, and Batman consistently proves it.
If you have super powers, you're going to taste boot one of these days. lol

Originally posted by Big Sexy
Suspension of disbelief is common among all comics. Thats what gives characters like Batman, Wolverine, and Captain America there thunder. The more popular the character is along with the preferences of the writer determine the characters standing in most comics. This enables characters like Deathstroke, Spiderman or Black Panther to perform as well as they do with top tiers. As far as my opinion goes, it is rather necessary( if done correctly) for these occurrences to keep a majority audience attracted to a character despite their short comings in various fights. Can it be done believeably? (probably not) but thats one of the attractions to the comic genre in that no fight (no matter how lopsided) is set in stone.

Exactly

Still just for fun here are some various points of stupidity involved with comic MAs

1) That by training yourself in many styles you are automatically better than someone who has learned less styles than you.

2) That by training yourself non stop you all of sudden get superhuman agility and speed to out react people with real superhuman abilities

3) That by rolling with a class 100 punch that it completely negates the entire blow. Despite the fact that you are still probably getting hit with no less than 25 tons of force.

4) That somehow your blows hit with greater force and impact than a bullet just because you learned how to hit someone

5) That pressure points and weak spots (like behind the the knee) are still exploitable despite the person's body basically being stronger than steel girdles.

6) That weapons of great durability actually somehow allow someone greater hitting power despite the fact it is still the force behind the blow that matters.

Originally posted by Hercules
If for instance you read a comic and it stayed close to what we equate real life to be then as soon as the Hulk connected with a punch to a street levers face most of the time that face would evaporate in a cloud of blood, brains and bone fragments.

Like in the Authority?

Originally posted by Hercules
But Marital arts skill in the comic world is the plot device that is used to say why this doesn't happen

Which marital arts are we talking about?


naughty

Originally posted by Scoobless
Like in the Authority?



Which marital arts are we talking about?


naughty

From what I have read of Authority, which admitedly is limited, yes probably just like that!

The ancient and mystical art of North Yorkshire, Ecky Thump, no one can beat an Ecky Thump master!

blowing up someone's head with a punch happens in various what ifs as well.

there's some irony there.

Originally posted by leonidas
blowing up someone's head with a punch happens in various what ifs as well.

there's some irony there.

Like in "What If a Class 100 was written properly"?

Originally posted by Hercules

But Marital arts skill in the comic world is the plot device that is used

Ok but people gaining powers from radiation shouldnt happen either. Also every class 100 should be bullet proof if MA skills are plot devices then so are my prvious examples. I dont even think its a plot device I just think the laws of physics are different.

Originally posted by Newjak
No I'm not.

The question posed was should MA's be enough to help street levelrs take down class 100s. I answered the question was all and the answer is no.

This has nothing to do with me nitpicking comics I was simply answering the question being asked.

Are you sure? Do you have a problem with class 100s

1. not being bulletproof.

2. not being able to leap put of orbit at supersonic speed.


Originally posted by Newjak
Still just for fun here are some various points of stupidity involved with comic MAs

I hope that this is not in response to my post because if it is you have missed the point, but i'll respond to some of the posts.

Originally posted by Newjak

1) That by training yourself in many styles you are automatically better than someone who has learned less styles than you.

Thats true.

Originally posted by Newjak

2) That by training yourself non stop you all of sudden get superhuman agility

Well conisdering that human beings were experimented on by the Celestials, The Supreme intelligence stated that one day all human beings woiuld have vast psionic powers and even normal human beings can gain powers from exposure to radiation and practicning magic, why is it illogical to think they can get superhuman skills from training?

Originally posted by Newjak

and speed to out react people with real superhuman abilities

The logic behind it is that the MA has superhuman stats and lots of skill but the other person with "real" superhuman powers has less skill. This is why Cap would get his ass kicked by Wonder Man he is superhuman but with alot of skill.

Originally posted by Newjak

3) That by rolling with a class 100 punch that it completely negates the entire blow. Despite the fact that you are still probably getting hit with no less than 25 tons of force.

Who cares they are superhumanly skilled. Bullseye make paper aeroplanes go through windows. Dr Doom can build time machines. Cap rolls with class 100 punches. Cap by the way has taken a bullet to the head and is already wearing kevlar.

Originally posted by Newjak

4) That somehow your blows hit with greater force and impact than a bullet just because you learned how to hit someone

Well considering that Cap can see bullets in slow motion and is one of the greatest MAs on earth...yeah why not.

Originally posted by Newjak

5) That pressure points and weak spots (like behind the the knee) are still exploitable despite the person's body basically being stronger than steel girdles.

Yeah thats true but people like Cap already have low superhuman strength and alot of skill, so they will be applying superhuman force to a part of the body that is sufficently less superhumanly durable.

Bullseye can make papera eroplanes go through windows. Dr Doom builds time machines Cap can exploit a class 100s knees.

Originally posted by Newjak

6) That weapons of great durability actually somehow allow someone greater hitting power despite the fact it is still the force behind the blow that matters.

Not if you use the edge. Wolverine claws are supersharp because they are made of indestructible material. Therefore the edge of Caps shield would be similar. Cap already has low superhuman strength and as skilled in H2H as Bullseye is in throwing stuff. It dont matter how skilled yopu are yopur not throwing a paper aeroplane through a window...but the laws of phsyics are different.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Ok but people gaining powers from radiation shouldnt happen either. Also every class 100 should be bullet proof if MA skills are plot devices then so are my prvious examples. I dont even think its a plot device I just think the laws of physics are different.

Its a comic, really 99% of the things that happen shouldn't thats where the suspension of disbelief comes in.

Yes Radiation giving you powers is a plot device, cause in reality it would just kill you.

I don't even see what point your making, if the laws of Phsyics are different in comics then hey, thats another plot device.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Ok but people gaining powers from radiation shouldnt happen either. Also every class 100 should be bullet proof if MA skills are plot devices then so are my prvious examples. I dont even think its a plot device I just think the laws of physics are different.



Are you sure? Do you have a problem with class 100s

1. not being bulletproof.

2. not being able to leap put of orbit at supersonic speed.




I hope that this is not in response to my post because if it is you have missed the point, but i'll respond to some of the posts.



Thats true.



Well conisdering that human beings were experimented on by the Celestials, The Supreme intelligence stated that one day all human beings woiuld have vast psionic powers and even normal human beings can gain powers from exposure to radiation and practicning magic, why is it illogical to think they can get superhuman skills from training?



The logic behind it is that the MA has superhuman stats and lots of skill but the other person with "real" superhuman powers has less skill. This is why Cap would get his ass kicked by Wonder Man he is superhuman but with alot of skill.



Who cares they are superhumanly skilled. Bullseye make paper aeroplanes go through windows. Dr Doom can build time machines. Cap rolls with class 100 punches. Cap by the way has taken a bullet to the head and is already wearing kevlar.



Well considering that Cap can see bullets in slow motion and is one of the greatest MAs on earth...yeah why not.



Yeah thats true but people like Cap already have low superhuman strength and alot of skill, so they will be applying superhuman force to a part of the body that is sufficently less superhumanly durable.

Bullseye can make papera eroplanes go through windows. Dr Doom builds time machines Cap can exploit a class 100s knees.



Not if you use the edge. Wolverine claws are supersharp because they are made of indestructible material. Therefore the edge of Caps shield would be similar. Cap already has low superhuman strength and as skilled in H2H as Bullseye is in throwing stuff. It dont matter how skilled yopu are yopur not throwing a paper aeroplane through a window...but the laws of phsyics are different. You are completely missing the point of this thread aren't you. This isn't a does this happen thread it is a should this happen thread.

And the answer is that no these kind of things shouldn't happen through MAs

you're partially right, nj. it's CAN this sort of thing happen BELIEVEABLY in the comicbook world WITHOUT PIS . . .

Originally posted by Hercules

Yes Radiation giving you powers is a plot device, cause in reality it would just kill you.

I don't even see what point your making, if the laws of Phsyics are different in comics then hey, thats another plot device.

I got the impression you define plot device as for example something that should not happen but it happens to futher the story. If you define plot device as something that happened to further the story then everything is a plot device.

The way I see it is that The MU is another reality with different laws. So to me its like you saying that the atmosphere on Mars is a plot device.


Originally posted by Newjak
You are completely missing the point of this thread aren't you. This isn't a does this happen thread it is a should this happen thread.

And the answer is that no these kind of things shouldn't happen through MAs

I dont think im missing the point. Heres the reason why. If we had a thread with Dr Doom in it and somebody said that Dr Doom can build a time machine the same people who say that MAs should not be able to do such and such would not bat an eyelid. If I had a thread where I said that Bulleye can make paper aeroplanes go through windows the same people would not bat an eyelid.

Therefore I am saying that it should happen because if you look at how comic book physics work they enable stuff like this to happen.

You are saying that it happens but it shouldnt. I am saying it happens and it should happen.

Originally posted by Alfheim
I got the impression you define plot device as for example something that should not happen but it happens to futher the story. If you define plot device as something that happened to further the story then everything is a plot device.

The way I see it is that The MU is another reality with different laws. So to me its like you saying that the atmosphere on Mars is a plot device.




I dont think im missing the point. Heres the reason why. If we had a thread with Dr Doom in it and somebody said that Dr Doom can build a time machine the same people who say that MAs should not be able to do such and such would not bat an eyelid. If I had a thread where I said that Bulleye can make paper aeroplanes go through windows the same people would not bat an eyelid.

Therefore I am saying that it should happen because if you look at how comic book physics work they enable stuff like this to happen.

You are saying that it happens but it shouldnt. I am saying it happens and it should happen. Read the post above yours

And no this kind of thing shouldn't happen but does.

Originally posted by Newjak
Read the post above yours

What about it?

Originally posted by Newjak

And no this kind of thing shouldn't happen but does.

Is that what im saying? Im saying it happens and it should happen and ive given my reasons.

Originally posted by Alfheim
What about it?



Is that what im saying? Im saying it happens and it should happen and ive given my reasons. Can this kind of stuff Believably happen without PIS.

Your reasons consist of its a comic book world so anything and everything should happen. Which is true but that is not the question posed.

The fact is no street level guy should ever be able to fight a class 100 believably or with no PIS.

Originally posted by Newjak
Can this kind of stuff Believably happen without PIS.

Yeah because the laws of physics are different.

Originally posted by Newjak

Your reasons consist of its a comic book world so anything and everything should happen. Which is true but that is not the question posed.

Actually no. Im saying establish what the laws of the comic book world are and then realise what PIS. A human, drowning is not PIS is. Namor drowning is.

Originally posted by Newjak

The fact is no street level guy should ever be able to fight a class 100 believably or with no PIS.

Look lets put it this way is Bruce Banner surviving massive dosages of radiation PIS ie it shouldnt happen?

Originally posted by Alfheim
Yeah because the laws of physics are different.



Actually no. Im saying establish what the laws of the comic book world are and then realise what PIS. A human, drowning is not PIS is. Namor drowning is.



Look lets put it this way is Bruce Banner surviving massive dosages of radiation PIS ie it shouldnt happen? Actually the laws of physics aren't that different. Gravity is the same. Lifting a ton is still lifting a ton. the physical world is exactly the same.

No class 1 punches effecting someone 100 times as strong is PIS.

And Bruce Banner and his Radiation has nothing to do with a fight

moreso than the punching out, what i find disturbing is the fact that cap on many occasions have withstood a double fisted smash with his shield from hulk, he's also taken shots from namor too. and still remanined on his feet

Originally posted by Newjak
Actually the laws of physics aren't that different. Gravity is the same. Lifting a ton is still lifting a ton. the physical world is exactly the same.


They are in some instances for example people get super powers from radiation.

Going into hyperspace does not result in time travel.

Paper aeroplanes going through windows.

Magick exists in the MU.

Human beings are different they have been experiemnted on by Clestials and as stated before the Supreme Intelligence stated that all huamn beings will have vast psionic powers.

I should not have specifically said laws of physics but in general there are alot of differences.

Originally posted by Newjak

No class 1 punches effecting someone 100 times as strong is PIS.

So if Thor got shot by a bullet and was injured would that be PIS.

Is Dr Doom be able to a time machine PIS.

Originally posted by Newjak

And Bruce Banner and his Radiation has nothing to do with a fight

Just answer the question.

I don't think street levelers should ever be able to take CL100s with just their fighting skills. Batman taking out solomon grundy with pressure points is BS since Grundy's durability is extremely high (in any of his forms). Ever had a baby hit you in a pressure point area? It doesn't hurt at all (unless you count the testicles a pressure point!).

Originally posted by Alfheim
They are in some instances for example people dont get super powers from radiation.

Going into hyperspace does not result in time travel.

Magick exists in the MU.

Human beings are different they have been experiemnted on by Clestials and as stated before the Supreme Intelligence stated that all huamn beings will have vast psionic powers.

I should not have specifically said laws of physics but in general there are alot of differences.



So if Thor got shot by a bullet and was injured would that be PIS. Is Dr Doom be able to a time machine PIS.



Just answer the question. You are picking specialized circumstances of which have nothing to do with a physical fight. Especially one with numbers and known items.

We know that people can lift 100 tons. And by th way the Celestials may have experimented on humans it doesn't mean every human can become superhuman or that MA training brings it out.

In general there are differences only in the science department and nothing to the laws of physical which is what fighting is governed by.

And why do I have to answer a question which has nothing to do with this thread.

Originally posted by manjaro
moreso than the punching out, what i find disturbing is the fact that cap on many occasions have withstood a double fisted smash with his shield from hulk, he's also taken shots from namor too. and still remanined on his feet

Yea that's the crazy part! It's one thing to block a hulk hit with the shield, but in that panel hulk was smashing cap from above! Which means Cap's legs must have been able to fight off around 1000 or so tons of force!!!!! Are we to believe that the vibranium shield can absorb that much force? So if we dropped a tank on cap, would he survive if he jus held his shield up high?

Originally posted by Newjak
You are picking specialized circumstances of which have nothing to do with a physical fight. Especially one with numbers and known items.

We know that people can lift 100 tons. And by th way the Celestials may have experimented on humans it doesn't mean every human can become superhuman or that MA training brings it out.

In general there are differences only in the science department and nothing to the laws of physical which is what fighting is governed by.

And why do I have to answer a question which has nothing to do with this thread.

Ok let me explain they are related for example if human beings have been

A)experiemnted on by The Clestials
B) The Supreme Intelligence has stated that all human beings will have vast psionic powers
C) Humans can gain powers from exposure to radiation
D) Humans can LEARN to have psionic powers and magical powers

This implies that human beings in this world are different. If two things are different do you expect them to have the same results? The above implies that humans in the Mu have far greater potential than the human beings in this world, so therefore you cannot complain when they do things which are not possible in this world.

You cant go to Mars and start complaining about how the atmosphere is different to Earth because Mars is a different planet.

Damn. There's no Spider-Man defending to be had here.

:hmph:

Originally posted by Alfheim
Ok let me explain they are related for example if human beings have been

A)experiemnted on by The Clestials
B) The Supreme Intelligence has stated that all human beings will have vast psionic powers
C) Humans can gain powers from exposure to radiation
D) Humans can LEARN to have psionic powers and magical powers

This implies that human beings in this world are different. If two things are different do you expect them to have the same results? The above implies that humans in the Mu have far greater potential than the human beings in this world, so therefore you cannot complain when they do things which are not possible in this world.

You cant go to Mars and start complaining about how the atmosphere is different to Earth because Mars is a different planet. Except humans in the MU are still governed by the normal laws of humans. As since most humans who work hard still do not reach superhuman abilities it is safe to assume that only under special circumstances in which people gain actual powers is this true.


And once again this has no purpose on a fight where the numbers and abilities are known. I fail to see where human potential as a whole helps someone hit harder than a bullet who only possesses one ton strength. Or where a ton shot can actually effect someone who is tougher than a tank.


You why because it doesn't change anything non of that matters and none of the stuff that does happen should.

Originally posted by Newjak
Except humans in the MU are still governed by the normal laws of humans.

No there not...as I explained they get powers from radiation....didnt I explain that.....thats the normal laws of humans?

Originally posted by Newjak

As since most humans who work hard still do not reach superhuman abilities it is safe to assume that only under special circumstances in which people gain actual powers is this true.

You do realise even if its still under special circumstances that they still apply. Even then there are still a considerable number of humans who have taught themselves to have powers. For example there was a normal boy in a X factor annual who learnt to have magical powers in several months, so not its not that special actually.

Oh yeah and all the tibetan monks have superhuman poers as well.

Originally posted by Newjak

And once again this has no purpose on a fight where the numbers and abilities are known. I fail to see where human potential as a whole helps someone hit harder than a bullet who only possesses one ton strength. Or where a ton shot can actually effect someone who is tougher than a tank.

Ok i'll try and explain this as simple as I can. The fact of the matter is human beings in the MU are different. Again, if human beings can:

a) Learn to have magical and psionic powers
b)Will have vast psionic powers in the future
c) Can gain powers from radiation.

Tell me what is the difference between a real human and an MU human? The difference is.....they have much more potential.

Now that we have established that human beings have much more potential, you cant complain when human beings can do things like hit faster than a bullet. Simple.

Yes it is posible

One thing about Captain America's shield-it absorbs kinetic energy-the vibranium will absorb it,so theoreticly(i think it happened) cap can jump off a 30 story builing and land on his shield he would not feel a thing,it is why he can take a pounding from hulk and others without getting tossed a mile

Originally posted by starlock
Yes it is posible

One thing about Captain America's shield-it absorbs kinetic energy-the vibranium will absorb it,so theoreticly(i think it happened) cap can jump off a 30 story builing and land on his shield he would not feel a thing,it is why he can take a pounding from hulk and others without getting tossed a mile

Not forgotting that his body is also as tough as kevlar and hes wearing kevlar.

Originally posted by starlock
Yes it is posible

One thing about Captain America's shield-it absorbs kinetic energy-the vibranium will absorb it,so theoreticly(i think it happened) cap can jump off a 30 story builing and land on his shield he would not feel a thing,it is why he can take a pounding from hulk and others without getting tossed a mile

Doesn't really help if someone grabs him and just throws him out of the fight.

Originally posted by Alfheim
No there not...as I explained they get powers from radiation....didnt I explain that.....thats the normal laws of humans?



You do realise even if its still under special circumstances that they still apply. Even then there are still a considerable number of humans who have taught themselves to have powers. For example there was a normal boy in a X factor annual who learnt to have magical powers in several months, so not its not that special actually.



Ok i'll try and explain this as simple as I can. The fact of the matter is human beings in the MU are different. Again, if human beings can:

a) Learn to have magical and psionic powers
b)Will have vast psionic powers in the future
c) Can gain powers from radiation.

Tell me what is the difference between a real human and an MU human? The difference is.....they have much more potential.

Now that we have established that human beings have much more potential, you cant complain when human beings can do things like hit faster than a bullet. Simple. You still do not get it do you.

Not all humans get powers from radiation hence why Nulcear Bombs and fallout are still very bad. It isn't like the whole world gets exposed to the Radiation and everyone gets powers.

And you are trying to compare learning magic to teaching a body to punch harder than a bullet and you do not see the difference

Humans in MU are not different hence why the Stamford thing happened. Why normal humans need Superheroes to protect them. Why Olympic athletes are not better than real life Olympic athletes.

What humans could be in the future has no relevance to what they are now.

And yes I can complain because the numbers have already been quantified for us. The person life a ton so unless a bullet in MU is weaker than a real life bullet than their is no mathematical way for a one ton person to hit with the force of a bullet.


Edit: And not only do these things happen in Marvel they also happen in DC

Originally posted by Newjak
You still do not get it do you.

Yeah I do, maybe I didnt explain myself.

Originally posted by Newjak

Not all humans get powers from radiation hence why Nulcear Bombs and fallout are still very bad. It isn't like the whole world gets exposed to the Radiation and everyone gets powers.

Thats true

Originally posted by Newjak

And you are trying to compare learning magic to teaching a body to punch harder than a bullet and you do not see the difference


They are I'll explain later

Originally posted by Newjak

Humans in MU are not different hence why the Stamford thing happened. Why normal humans need Superheroes to protect them. Why Olympic athletes are not better than real life Olympic athletes.


Humans are different. Thats the reason why superhuman beings exist in the first place. Olympic atheletes may not ahve superhuman powers but all the tibetan monks in the MU do.

Originally posted by Newjak

What humans could be in the future has no relevance to what they are now.

Yeah it does I dont think scientists in the real world have any evidence that human beings will have enough psionic powers to paralyse an intergalactic space fleet. The fact that MU humans have that potentials and humans DONT implies they are superior.

Originally posted by Newjak

And yes I can complain because the numbers have already been quantified for us. The person life a ton so unless a bullet in MU is weaker than a real life bullet than their is no mathematical way for a one ton person to hit with the force of a bullet.

This is the reason why I can compare the learning of magic AND psionics to MA. Both the learning of magic and psionics is taught by using your brain. The brain governs everything and therefore relates to everything. All human beings can do this and heres the evidence.

1.The ordinray human beings that have learnt magic or psionics
a) Ordinary kid in an Xfactor annual learnt magic in months. 1993 I think.
b) Doctor Strange maybe the Sorcerer Supreme but he worked hard and was taught by the Ancient One.
c) All the tibetan monks have psionic powers. The tibetan monks are NOT special. They have powers because they meditate all day. Therefore any human being in the MU can have psionic powers if they train hard enough.
d) The numerous other humans that have taught themselves to have magic or psionic abilities.

So now we have established that all human beings have the ability to have psionic powers this means they are superior to real humans and therefore there is nothing illogical about MAs punching harder than a bullet.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Doesn't really help if someone grabs him and just throws him out of the fight.

i never questioned that,i just gave a little insight to people questioning cap getting hit (pounded) by 100 ton shots

BTW it would help if he put the shield in front of him before he impacted against whatever he was thrown at, but yes he can still be grabbed and thrown,i dont think this is a versus thread anyway

You know what is just plain stupid? It seems that a lot of times Street levelers will get caught by CL100 when they are fighting. However, instead of simply crushign the street person, the heavy hitter usually just throws him/her into a wall or something! Come on! Just crush the skull and get yoru victory.

Well, chi is a common excuse for the uber-MA stuff in fiction. In comics chi manipulations are often legitimate superpower (the examples of it are Shang Chi and Iron Fist in Marvel). You can affect your physical performance by affecting your spiritual energy (meditation and breathing exercises- I've never tried meditation myself so I can't tell how effective it is in the real life, but breathing exercises is a decent substitute for patented painkillers at least (that's truth). In comics such stuff is glorified and turned into superpower- as legitimate as many other ridiculous stuff...

And now there's some myth-busting.


Learning martial arts and learning how to fight are two different things. Some people just study martial arts like some sort of ballet dance or gymnastics. Also some martial arts are reduced just to ballet-like Kata in their modern form.
In real battle you fight on instinct and intuition (nothing like famous "berserk rage", since you still have to think over your strategy and tactics)- you don't think how to throw a particular punch or kick, or even how to aim at your target (that would be ridiculous). Real fighter does that on instinct and muscle memory. Instinct, adrenaline- and in the same time you should keep your mind clear to avoid wrong steps.
It's no wonder that a guy who studied capoeira but never learnt how to fight effectively lost to a determined big guy with a crowbar.
Being a martial arts student doesn't mean that you're a good fighter by default.

Myth number two. Lifting strength and the force of hit is the same.

That's particularly maddening myth. First of all, big biceps look cool but in reality the bigger your biceps are, the more they weaken your overall fighting ability. In real fight it's almost unnecessary group of muscles, and in fighting-oriented muscle developpment biceps are often less developed that the muscles which serve for propulsion of the hand thus affecting the force of the blow.
For example, when Bruce Lee started his carreer as a movie star, he has to develop good biceps to look cool at the screen but that decreased his overall fighting ability to the some point. And while he was barely able to lift 70 kg, he was able to punch people almost twice as bigger as he (for those who don't know, Bruce was a man of relatively small stature, just 152 cm- I'm only two inches taller than that (157 cm) but I've never had major problems with my small stature since I'm a girl (a guy with my height would be close to be nicknamed a midget)) all across arena. His One Inch
"chi" punch was later incorporated into the fighting style of one of my favourite fictional characters but that's an offtopic.
If the body is trained for hand-to-hand fighting, then the biceps aren't the most developed group of the muscles in the body. So if they have relatively decent weightliifting feats that would just mean that the "nessesary" muscles are even stronger. That without the things like moving speed, chi manipulation, "supporting" superpowers come into play.
But superstrong guys should always hit strong (even if they haven't got the proper muscles development)- all their muscles are superstrong (but sometimes the hits are only quarter as strong as you can think judging by their lifting feats). That's why Spidey is able to cause serious damage even though his "fighting" is an acrobatical performance for the most part. And a person who has both superstrength and skills is devastating (Wonder Woman is a perfect example).

Myth three. Knowing many styles makes you the best there is.

Any skilled martial artist\fighter basically invents his own fighting style often based on some of existing. There's no point in learning hundreds of styles from A to Z when it's much more useful to incorporate useful thing or two from each into your personal style.
Personal style or way of fighting takes advantage of fighter's strong points. In comics sometimes it's an advantage from particular thing (for example, the fighting style of Jack Hawksmoor (the Authority) is based on high kicks to take an advantage from those organic "metal" soles on his feet, or Spidey utilising his agility (though it makes his fighting look more like acrobatics show)). I don't even know why Wolverine needs THAT amouth of passive knowledge of martial arts when his standart model of fighting utilises the abuse of his claws\healing factor and relatively not effective since it's not so different from a drunk berserker wildly slashing with sword and the claws aren't so different from normal melee weapons in terms of parrying*...
*Take into account that all the three examples of personal styles mentioned above make any sence only with particular superhuman powers\abilities. Trying to replicate those persoinal styles would be either dangerous or impossible for normal human. That's just the examples of personal styles utilising superhuman powers.

Back to topic. Something like Punisher affecting Hulk is PIS incarnate. But again, the majority of Marvel (and not only Marvel)martial artists either
a)have gone through some "reinforcement surgery" which improved their reflexes and stuff (Captain America and the whole SSS thing).
b)have some chi manipulation related powers on almost superhuman level
c)have "supporting" superpowers (healing factor, energy powers)

But how many of that are really in street level category? And yes, pressure points stuff is overhyped in comics, and some of those feats (Batman kicking Hulk) are just ridiculous. Period. The "strong guy" just gets hit somewhere (Gamora hitting Thing simply in the chest) and then stuff happens.

Originally posted by Charlotte DeBel
Well, chi is a common excuse for the uber-MA stuff in fiction. In comics chi manipulations are often legitimate superpower (the examples of it are Shang Chi and Iron Fist in Marvel). You can affect your physical performance by affecting your spiritual energy (meditation and breathing exercises- I've never tried meditation myself so I can't tell how effective it is in the real life, but breathing exercises is a decent substitute for patented painkillers at least (that's truth). In comics such stuff is glorified and turned into superpower- as legitimate as many other ridiculous stuff...

And now there's some myth-busting.


Learning martial arts and learning how to fight are two different things. Some people just study martial arts like some sort of ballet dance or gymnastics. Also some martial arts are reduced just to ballet-like Kata in their modern form.
In real battle you fight on instinct and intuition (nothing like famous "berserk rage", since you still have to think over your strategy and tactics)- you don't think how to throw a particular punch or kick, or even how to aim at your target (that would be ridiculous). Real fighter does that on instinct and muscle memory. Instinct, adrenaline- and in the same time you should keep your mind clear to avoid wrong steps.
It's no wonder that a guy who studied capoeira but never learnt how to fight effectively lost to a determined big guy with a crowbar.
Being a martial arts student doesn't mean that you're a good fighter by default.

Myth number two. Lifting strength and the force of hit is the same.

That's particularly maddening myth. First of all, big biceps look cool but in reality the bigger your biceps are, the more they weaken your overall fighting ability. In real fight it's almost unnecessary group of muscles, and in fighting-oriented muscle developpment biceps are often less developed that the muscles which serve for propulsion of the hand thus affecting the force of the blow.
For example, when Bruce Lee started his carreer as a movie star, he has to develop good biceps to look cool at the screen but that decreased his overall fighting ability to the some point. And while he was barely able to lift 70 kg, he was able to punch people almost twice as bigger as he (for those who don't know, Bruce was a man of relatively small stature, just 152 cm- I'm only two inches taller than that (157 cm) but I've never had major problems with my small stature since I'm a girl (a guy with my height would be close to be nicknamed a midget)) all across arena. His One Inch
"chi" punch was later incorporated into the fighting style of one of my favourite fictional characters but that's an offtopic.
If the body is trained for hand-to-hand fighting, then the biceps aren't the most developed group of the muscles in the body. So if they have relatively decent weightliifting feats that would just mean that the "nessesary" muscles are even stronger. That without the things like moving speed, chi manipulation, "supporting" superpowers come into play.
But superstrong guys should always hit strong (even if they haven't got the proper muscles development)- all their muscles are superstrong (but sometimes the hits are only quarter as strong as you can think judging by their lifting feats). That's why Spidey is able to cause serious damage even though his "fighting" is an acrobatical performance for the most part. And a person who has both superstrength and skills is devastating (Wonder Woman is a perfect example).

Myth three. Knowing many styles makes you the best there is.

Any skilled martial artist\fighter basically invents his own fighting style often based on some of existing. There's no point in learning hundreds of styles from A to Z when it's much more useful to incorporate useful thing or two from each into your personal style.
Personal style or way of fighting takes advantage of fighter's strong points. In comics sometimes it's an advantage from particular thing (for example, the fighting style of Jack Hawksmoor (the Authority) is based on high kicks to take an advantage from those organic "metal" soles on his feet, or Spidey utilising his agility (though it makes his fighting look more like acrobatics show)). I don't even know why Wolverine needs THAT amouth of passive knowledge of martial arts when his standart model of fighting utilises the abuse of his claws\healing factor and relatively not effective since it's not so different from a drunk berserker wildly slashing with sword and the claws aren't so different from normal melee weapons in terms of parrying*...
*Take into account that all the three examples of personal styles mentioned above make any sence only with particular superhuman powers\abilities. Trying to replicate those persoinal styles would be either dangerous or impossible for normal human. That's just the examples of personal styles utilising superhuman powers.

Back to topic. Something like Punisher affecting Hulk is PIS incarnate. But again, the majority of Marvel (and not only Marvel)martial artists either
a)have gone through some "reinforcement surgery" which improved their reflexes and stuff (Captain America and the whole SSS thing).
b)have some chi manipulation related powers on almost superhuman level
c)have "supporting" superpowers (healing factor, energy powers)

But how many of that are really in street level category? And yes, pressure points stuff is overhyped in comics, and some of those feats (Batman kicking Hulk) are just ridiculous. Period. The "strong guy" just gets hit somewhere (Gamora hitting Thing simply in the chest) and then stuff happens.

nice.

Originally posted by Scoobless
A peak human (or less) punching a class 100 character should be the equivalent of a toddler punching an elephant.

The same comparison could be made of a Class 80 character such as the Thing punching someone with Thor's durability. Yet know one complains when that happens.

IMO i think everyone should lighten up.

Originally posted by Scoobless
A peak human (or less) punching a class 100 character should be the equivalent of a toddler punching an elephant.

Double post ! Sorry