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Okay, its just like the last thread, except its the Roman Empire's finest up against the Spartans.

1000 Legionniares vs:

1. Historic 300
2. Movie 300

They have no cavalry or bow and arrows, but the Legionnaires have short swords, pilas or throwing spears and a Scutum which is their large, rectangular and curved shield.

Spartans have everything they usually have except cast in iron like the Romans.

Setting: Thermopylae

Legioniares had better weapons plus had more advanced battle tactics. Romans win.

Legionaries, with ease, a thousand Pilum hitting the Phalanx will soften them up and the Pommel on the Scutum is used to break Spears.

The Roman Legion was like a meat grinder going forward, it would chew up and spit out anything it came into contact with.

Originally posted by Caps Conscience
Legioniares had better weapons plus had more advanced battle tactics. Romans win.

Even at Thermopylae??

Originally posted by braz
Even at Thermopylae??

The Roman Legion has the advantage of studying that battle.

Originally posted by Hercules
Legionaries, with ease, a thousand Pilum hitting the Phalanx will soften them up and the Pommel on the Scutum is used to break Spears.

The Roman Legion was like a meat grinder going forward, it would chew up and spit out anything it came into contact with.

How would the pilum effect the phalanx, Their shields should be able to withstand them right? And how would their scutum be more effective than the Spartans shields? (Besides the fact that theyre twice as large)

Originally posted by braz
Even at Thermopylae??

Yes, Thermopylae was not soley 300 Spartans, there were more Greeks forces there than that, even at the last stand the Spartans were not alone, 700 Thespians stood with them, the Spartans even saluted their bravery as the Thespians were not soliders but Citizens.

Fact is the Phalanx was outmoded and outdated by the time the Roman Empire was in full swing, the Legions would destroy them.

Originally posted by Caps Conscience
The Roman Legion has the advantage of studying that battle.


True, but again, this is the movie Spartans theyre up against who were quite uber.
But the wedge could still be effective against the phalanx, the wedge was brilliant.

Originally posted by Hercules
Yes, Thermopylae was not soley 300 Spartans, there were more Greeks forces there than that, even at the last stand the Spartans were not alone, 700 Thespians stood with them, the Spartans even saluted their bravery as the Thespians were not soliders but Citizens.

Fact is the Phalanx was outmoded and outdated by the time the Roman Empire was in full swing, the Legions would destroy them.

Yes, there were approximately 7000 other Greek troops but they didnt even do anything..The 300 Spartans slaughtered most of the Persians and were the only ones able to beat the Immortals. And they all left at the end of the battle, except for the Thespians like u stated.

Originally posted by braz
How would the pilum effect the phalanx, Their shields should be able to withstand them right? And how would their scutum be more effective than the Spartans shields? (Besides the fact that theyre twice as large)

How are 300 men going to defend against the 1,000 pilum thrown just behind the first rank of men?

Why do you think a Scutum has a pommel in the middle of it? it can be used on the offense as welll as the defense.

Roman legion fights like this, gets in range throws pilum, Pilum bend on impact so they cannot be pulled out and thrown back, then the legion advances as one, short swords are drawn, shields are used to break the Spartan spears and they move into close quarter where they use their swords like butchers knives.

Hoplon is no use in defence at first as the spear far out reaches is and in close quarters the legion fights on a rotating basis enabling a fresh man to go forward every few minutes.

The Spartans were good but they were a spent power by the time the Roman war machine got rolling, Thebes had soundly beaten them way before then.

Originally posted by braz
Yes, there were approximately 7000 other Greek troops but they didnt even do anything..The 300 Spartans slaughtered most of the Persians and were the only ones able to beat the Immortals. And they all left at the end of the battle, except for the Thespians like u stated.

Didn't do anything?

You sure about that now?

King Leonidas was in charge of the defense, what kind of general only utilizes 300 of his troops?

Leonidas told the other Greeks to retreat ONLY when he knew his position was compramised the immortals had already been beaten back by then and the Greeks had been fighting for the best part of two days.

Originally posted by Hercules
How are 300 men going to defend against the 1,000 pilum thrown just behind the first rank of men?

Why do you think a Scutum has a pommel in the middle of it? it can be used on the offense as welll as the defense.

Roman legion fights like this, gets in range throws pilum, Pilum bend on impact so they cannot be pulled out and thrown back, then the legion advances as one, short swords are drawn, shields are used to break the Spartan spears and they move into close quarter where they use their swords like butchers knives.

Hoplon is no use in defence at first as the spear far out reaches is and in close quarters the legion fights on a rotating basis enabling a fresh man to go forward every few minutes.

The Spartans were good but they were a spent power by the time the Roman war machine got rolling, Thebes had soundly beaten them way before then.

Yeah I did actually read about the bending thing, real clever.. So..The thrown pilums negates the Spartans' shields and the Romans break the Spartans' spears with their scutums or shields? Hmm
I guess they would win, and the wedge might even be able to take them out as well, have u read about that?

Originally posted by Hercules
Didn't do anything?

You sure about that now?

King Leonidas was in charge of the defense, what kind of general only utilizes 300 of his troops?

Leonidas told the other Greeks to retreat ONLY when he knew his position was compramised the immortals had already been beaten back by then and the Greeks had been fighting for the best part of two days.

Im pretty sure, I watched this thing on the history channel and they said the Greek army sent in their other Greek troops at first, and were getting beaten, but when we sent in the Spartans, thats where we started kicking ass. And that they had continued through day 1 where they beat the normal Persians and day 2 where they slaughtered 10,000 immortals. In the end, Leonidas told the other Greeks to go home when they were outflanked.

Originally posted by braz
Im pretty sure, I watched this thing on the history channel and they said the Greek army sent in their other Greek troops at first, and were getting beaten, but when we sent in the Spartans, thats where we started kicking ass. And that they had continued through day 1 where they beat the normal Persians and day 2 where they slaughtered 10,000 immortals. In the end, Leonidas told the other Greeks to go home when they were outflanked.

The History channel then it MUST be true!

The Spartans LED the defence they would have been in the frontline from the start.

Herodotus states that the Persians had 10,000 Immortals total and estimates the total Persian casualties at 20,000 so seeing as it was the Immortals that were used to advance up the mountain pass how had 10,000 of them been slaughtered already, they beat the immortals back but they didn't saughter them to a man.

Leonidas also arranged a system of relays between the hoplites of the various cities so as to constantly have fresh troops on the front line, although due to the terrain and in the heat of battle this broke down and only enough troops as space allowed would get to the front line.

Bottom line is though that the other Greek troops saw action and did their bit.

Oh and yes, I know of the wedge and its very effective in close quarters where your Gladius can be weilded easily and larger weapons cannot.

Originally posted by Hercules
The History channel then it MUST be true!

The Spartans LED the defence they would have been in the frontline from the start.

Herodotus states that the Persians had 10,000 Immortals total and estimates the total Persian casualties at 20,000 so seeing as it was the Immortals that were used to advance up the mountain pass how had 10,000 of them been slaughtered already, they beat the immortals back but they didn't saughter them to a man.

Leonidas also arranged a system of relays between the hoplites of the various cities so as to constantly have fresh troops on the front line, although due to the terrain and in the heat of battle this broke down and only enough troops as space allowed would get to the front line.

Bottom line is though that the other Greek troops saw action and did their bit.

No I thought it was everyone who outflanked them, not just the Immortals, but also the Medes(archers) and regular troops. And Herodotus didnt state that there were 10,000 Immortals and 20,000 Persian casualties, he actually said the Persian army was around 2-5 million strong Although, of course it wasnt true, because Herodotus obviously exaggererated, but thats what he said, he probably believed there were hundreds of thousands of Persian casualties. I believe 20,000 is what modern historians have come to.

Originally posted by Hercules
The History channel then it MUST be true!

The Spartans LED the defence they would have been in the frontline from the start.

Leonidas also arranged a system of relays between the hoplites of the various cities so as to constantly have fresh troops on the front line, although due to the terrain and in the heat of battle this broke down and only enough troops as space allowed would get to the front line.

Bottom line is though that the other Greek troops saw action and did their bit.

Exactly, so if the Spartans were on the front line, they did most of the work, and almost all of them were alive when they were outflanked, so that just shows that the narrow pass could only fit the Spartans at front and everyone else in the back, the phalanx was like impenetrable, so they did mostly everything.

Originally posted by braz
No I thought it was everyone who outflanked them, not just the Immortals, but also the Medes(archers) and regular troops. And Herodotus didnt state that there were 10,000 Immortals and 20,000 Persian casualties, he actually said the Persian army was around 2-5 million strong Although, of course it wasnt true, because Herodotus obviously exaggererated, but thats what he said, he probably believed there were hundreds of thousands of Persian casualties. I believe 20,000 is what modern historians have come to.

Herodotus VI,211, Diodorus Siculus, Library, XI,7 states that the Immortals were an elite corps 10,000 strong.

Xerxes sent his commander Hydarnes through the pass with the Immortals and other troops, total force was about 40,000 but the Immortals were there.

Wrong he estimated it at 2.6 million but that was including fleet crew and support, he estimated 1.7 million actual infantry.

He estimated 5.8 million as the total invasion force, not those present at Thermoplyae.

Modern estimates say 175,000 to 500,000 would be closer.

Originally posted by braz
Exactly, so if the Spartans were on the front line, they did most of the work, and almost all of them were alive when they were outflanked, so that just shows that the narrow pass could only fit the Spartans at front and everyone else in the back, the phalanx was like impenetrable, so they did mostly everything.

No, the men were being relayed from the back to replace casualites at the front, no man is fighting for three days straight not even a Spartan, their were 1400 Greek casualties other than the Spartans and the Thespians, how did they become casualties if they weren't fighting?

Originally posted by Hercules
No, the men were being relayed from the back to replace casualites at the front, no man is fighting for three days straight not even a Spartan, their were 1400 Greek casualties other than the Spartans and the Thespians, how did they become casualties if they weren't fighting?


They didnt fight 3 days straight, they fought one day at a time. 1st day- the normal Persians, beat around 10,000 of them and then they rested and the Immortals the second day who were said to be 10,000 strong, and beaten by the Spartans. But apparently not all of them because there were some at the flank, so almost 20,000 Persian casualties total. Despite the relaying, which I never heard about and Ive checked various sources, (Idunno I'll have to check again actually), the Spartans still did a good majority of the work.

Originally posted by Hercules
Herodotus VI,211, Diodorus Siculus, Library, XI,7 states that the Immortals were an elite corps 10,000 strong.

Xerxes sent his commander Hydarnes through the pass with the Immortals and other troops, total force was about 40,000 but the Immortals were there.

Wrong he estimated it at 2.6 million but that was including fleet crew and support, he estimated 1.7 million actual infantry.

He estimated 5.8 million as the total invasion force, not those present at Thermoplyae.

Modern estimates say 175,000 to 500,000 would be closer.

O. Wellll soo sowwwiee

And where did u read about 175K-500K? Ive read it was 80K- around 250K.

The tactics of the legion were derived heavily from the Spartan phalanx methods, including interlocking shield walls and short thrusting swords vs. longer ones. However the legionary system of maniples and the shape of the scutum vs. the hoplon allowed for easily withdrawal and movement of the men, unlike the pahalanx where you were essentially locked in place until the enemy was dead or you were.