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this is i think a very serious question. why would ANY1 create anything. it cannot be without some sort of inclination. or reason. nothing is done without either DESIRE or NECESSITY. since the omnipotent god has NEITHER desire nor necessity{as he is complete in himself and neither WANTS, nor NEEDS anything outside his ownself. otherwise hed stop being omnipotent} why would he create ANYTHING other than himself. why would indeed he me MOTIVATED to do anything at ALL???? and for those who believe that the world is part of god, we can atleast agree that our CONCIOUSNESS as it is is not completely the SAME as god so the argument still remains.

what motivated him to do so?

He was bored.

Here' s a better question, why do people keep using the Bible as the only view point for religion?

its not just the bible. its islam, judaism, hinduism, zoarastrianism. and their scriptures.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
its not just the bible. its islam, judaism, hinduism, zoarastrianism. and their scriptures.

Judaism is based on the bible, and Islam is another variation of the same religion. They all have their roots in Atonism.

Hinduism is not monotheistic, and is nothing like those religions you named. I don't even see how hindusim relates to this tpic when your speaking of a monotheistic concept of GOD in this thread.

islam takes things from christianity and judaism but is different from both. it is strictly monotheistic. judaism is monotheistic but worships a different god and people/had different predictions about the future/and the divine . christianity{what THEY BELIEVE IN SPITE OF THE SCRIPTURES} BELIEVE IN A TRIUNE GOD AND wholly other things than the first two, jesus n all. in vedic hinsuism, there is no pamtheonism and a monotheistic god is present as brahma/baghwan who is repeatedly said to have no images and no others. zoarastrianism again.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
islam takes things from christianity and judaism but is different from both. it is strictly monotheistic. judaism is monotheistic but worships a different god and people/had different predictions about the future/and the divine . christianity{what THEY BELIEVE IN SPITE OF THE SCRIPTURES} BELIEVE IN A TRIUNE GOD AND wholly other things than the first two, jesus n all. in vedic hinsuism, there is no pamtheonism and a monotheistic god is present as brahma/baghwan who is repeatedly said to have no images and no others. zoarastrianism again.

Islam is as different as Christianity as Christianity is different from judaism. It's an Abrahamic religion as many of the mainstream religions.

As for hindusim, I know many hindu's who worship many different diety's. I know someone who worships hanuman and I know someoone who worships Kali. The religion has many GODs, and Brahma is the least worship god in mordern Hinduism.

i dont deny that, but as far as scriptural authorities go, authentically, the vedas tell people to worship only one god who has no images. i was commenting on the relegion and not the folowers.

There is no point of creation.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
i dont deny that, but as far as scriptural authorities go, authentically, the vedas tell people to worship only one god who has no images. i was commenting on the relegion and not the folowers.

Religion is subjected to it's followers, Himduism has a plethora of beliefs not one.

I think only an imcomplete, imperfect, and lonely being would be motivated to create something other than itself.

If something is perfect and complete, it will not need or want another apart from itself, since it already embodies everything.

I could be wrong, but that's how I see it.



Now, others may say the motivation of this being to create another is love...the desire to care for something other than itself. This may be a very Christian, Jewish, or Muslim way of thinking.

However, the concept of Hell throws that idea off. If Love was truly the motivator of creation, then why would this being aim to punish something it created ? Why would it want its creation to suffer simply for disobeying it if love was the motive ?

Originally posted by leonheartmm
this is i think a very serious question. why would ANY1 create anything. it cannot be without some sort of inclination. or reason. nothing is done without either DESIRE or NECESSITY. since the omnipotent god has NEITHER desire nor necessity{as he is complete in himself and neither WANTS, nor NEEDS anything outside his ownself. otherwise hed stop being omnipotent} why would he create ANYTHING other than himself. why would indeed he me MOTIVATED to do anything at ALL???? and for those who believe that the world is part of god, we can atleast agree that our CONCIOUSNESS as it is is not completely the SAME as god so the argument still remains.

what motivated him to do so? Here's a better question, why do you ask a question we can't possibly answer?

Originally posted by Goddess Kali
I think only an imcomplete, imperfect, and lonely being would be motivated to create something other than itself.

If something is perfect and complete, it will not need or want another apart from itself, since it already embodies everything.

I could be wrong, but that's how I see it.



Now, others may say the motivation of this being to create another is love...the desire to care for something other than itself. This may be a very Christian, Jewish, or Muslim way of thinking.

However, the concept of Hell throws that idea off. If Love was truly the motivator of creation, then why would this being aim to punish something it created ? Why would it want its creation to suffer simply for disobeying it if love was the motive ?

actually no, none of those relegions give an explanation. and but u also said it. the DESIRE to create sumthing other than itself. when sumthing has DESIRE, that means it lacks sumthing. a complete being can technically never feal DESIRE.

Originally posted by Emperor Ashtar
As for hindusim, I know many hindu's who worship many different diety's. I know someone who worships hanuman and I know someoone who worships Kali. The religion has many GODs, and Brahma is the least worship god in mordern Hinduism.

Hindu's actually Believe in one supreme God- Brahman (not to be confused with Brahma). All the other Gods, including the ones you stated are manifestations of that supreme God.

Originally posted by Goddess Kali
I think only an imcomplete, imperfect, and lonely being would be motivated to create something other than itself.

If something is perfect and complete, it will not need or want another apart from itself, since it already embodies everything.

I could be wrong, but that's how I see it.



Now, others may say the motivation of this being to create another is love...the desire to care for something other than itself. This may be a very Christian, Jewish, or Muslim way of thinking.

However, the concept of Hell throws that idea off. If Love was truly the motivator of creation, then why would this being aim to punish something it created ? Why would it want its creation to suffer simply for disobeying it if love was the motive ?

Tis a very good point

Originally posted by Crimson Phoenix
Hindu's actually Believe in one supreme God- Brahman (not to be confused with Brahma). All the other Gods, including the ones you stated are manifestations of that supreme God.

Brahman is a transcendent reality more so than a diety.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
this is i think a very serious question. why would ANY1 create anything. it cannot be without some sort of inclination. or reason. nothing is done without either DESIRE or NECESSITY. since the omnipotent god has NEITHER desire nor necessity{as he is complete in himself and neither WANTS, nor NEEDS anything outside his ownself. otherwise hed stop being omnipotent} why would he create ANYTHING other than himself. why would indeed he me MOTIVATED to do anything at ALL???? and for those who believe that the world is part of god, we can atleast agree that our CONCIOUSNESS as it is is not completely the SAME as god so the argument still remains.

what motivated him to do so?

"Well, since I'm all-poweful and can materalize anything I desire..."

Originally posted by Emperor Ashtar
Brahman is a transcendent reality more so than a diety.

Brahman is still considered the one supreme God. All the other Gods like Kali, Shiva etc, are manifestations of Brahman. But you're right about hinduism having a plethora of beleifs

Hinduism completely confuses me...

Originally posted by Crimson Phoenix
Tis a very good point


Thanks\









Originally posted by Crimson Phoenix
"Well, since I'm all-poweful and can materalize anything I desire..."


"True, but since I am complete and perfect, why do I desire anything?"

Originally posted by Crimson Phoenix
Brahman is still considered the one supreme God.

Actually, Brahman is considered to be everything.

Originally posted by Quiero Mota
Hinduism completely confuses me...


Hey join the club


I like Hinduism though, the mythology more so than the religion


There are a multitude of Gods and Goddesses who portray the nature of human and animal alike. I think it's awesome in many ways.

Originally posted by Goddess Kali
"True, but since I am complete and perfect, why do I desire anything?"

" Just for shits and giggles, I think I'll create little people on the only inhabitable planet in it's solar system."

(And that was me, not Crimson Phoenix)

Originally posted by Quiero Mota
" Just for shits and giggles, I think I'll create little people on the only inhabitable planet in it's solar system."


"And then I will send them to Hell when they don't do what I say"

Originally posted by Goddess Kali
Hey join the club


I like Hinduism though, the mythology more so than the religion


Same. I really can't like a religion who's gods have animal heads on human body's with a million appendages.

Originally posted by Emperor Ashtar
Actually, Brahman is considered to be everything.

I get what you mean. But does other religions see God as everything?

Originally posted by Goddess Kali
"And then I will send them to Hell when they don't do what I say"

"Is that a little harsh?? Maybe, but they need discipline. When they learn to make bronze, I'll rest for a little bit, and then make my presence known to them and proceed to smite the evil-doers."

i DONT like hinduism{other than some of their pantheons and mythology} it preaches the brahmans were made from the head of brahman and the shudras were made from the feats. it divides people in casts and insinuates in places, a warrior mentallity.

Originally posted by Quiero Mota
Hinduism completely confuses me...

tru dat. Hinduism is very complicated, theres even an athiest sect of hinduism (which i dont quite get). but some of the core philosophies, and obviously the mythologies are really interesting.

Originally posted by Quiero Mota
Same. I really can't like a religion who's gods have animal heads on human body's with a million appendages.


I do not like the way the religion of Hinduism is practiced in many parts of India is what I mean. Hinduism has promoted EXTREME classicism, more so than Christianity had done here in USA. Also, like Islam, Hindu Traditional spawned laws which have oppressed women and other minorities.



However, the Mythology and lessons from the Vedas Books of Wisdom are just beautiful and fascinating, and inspire me so much that I renamed myself Goddess Kali.


Egyptian Mythos also fascinates the hell out of me, even though it has been retconned over and over by each rising Dynasty. Ra, Isis, Amun, Osiris, Ptah, etc. Each God becoming more powerful than the last, taking the thrown away from the last God, as each new Pharoah decides to take power and change the religion.


Christianity, however, is also confusing. Three persons in One God, not condusing heh ?

Originally posted by Quiero Mota
"Is that a little harsh?? Maybe, but they need discipline. When they learn to make bronze, I'll rest for a little bit, and then make my presence known to them and proceed to smite the evil-doers."



"But you know I could discipline the humans by simply showing myself to them instead of keeping myself hidden in the skies....instead of sending innocent people to eternal hell fire to be tormented simply because they weren't convinced of my existance.... ..that would be the mature thing to do, instead of acting like the over grown child the Bible makes me out to be...."

Originally posted by Goddess Kali



Egyptian Mythos also fascinates the hell out of me, even though it has been retconned over and over by each rising Dynasty. Ra, Isis, Amun, Osiris, Ptah, etc. Each God becoming more powerful than the last, taking the thrown away from the last God, as each new Pharoah decides to take power and change the religion.
Well, that's how religion works it's supposed to grow and change.

Originally posted by Goddess Kali

Christianity, however, is also confusing. Three persons in One God, not condusing heh ?

It's a mottif:

Father=Unseen God head
Son= Spirit of God made flesh, and it might represent the Sun itself in some traditions
Holy Spirit= The Divine spirit in all men.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
i DONT like hinduism{other than some of their pantheons and mythology} it preaches the brahmans were made from the head of brahman and the shudras were made from the feats. it divides people in casts and insinuates in places, a warrior mentallity.

that aint necessarily true. The caste system was originally like a job system where a person who was good at somthing was put inot a certain catagory, but then over the centuries the more educated brahmins corrupted the system and gave ranks to each class were there wasnt before.

As much as its an interesting religion, theres alot of shit in it like other religions, with corrupt priests and discrimination against women.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
this is i think a very serious question. why would ANY1 create anything. it cannot be without some sort of inclination. or reason. nothing is done without either DESIRE or NECESSITY. since the omnipotent god has NEITHER desire nor necessity{as he is complete in himself and neither WANTS, nor NEEDS anything outside his ownself. otherwise hed stop being omnipotent} why would he create ANYTHING other than himself. why would indeed he me MOTIVATED to do anything at ALL???? and for those who believe that the world is part of god, we can atleast agree that our CONCIOUSNESS as it is is not completely the SAME as god so the argument still remains.

what motivated him to do so?

Only God knows. This is the Great Mystery all the mystical traditions write about.

Originally posted by Quiero Mota
" Just for shits and giggles, I think I'll create little people on the only inhabitable planet in it's solar system."

(And that was me, not Crimson Phoenix) What's wrong with little people. cry

not a lot of believers keen on answering this i suppose.

Okay here's how it really happened, there is Samuel L. Jackson, a being who is eternal, has always existed and always will, he created God, who he gave the task of creating reality, you know, the universe, heaven, hell, all that. Why did Jackson do it? No one can analyze what is in Jackson's head, it is an enigma.

Originally posted by Emperor Ashtar
Islam is as different as Christianity as Christianity is different from judaism. It's an Abrahamic religion as many of the mainstream religions.

As for hindusim, I know many hindu's who worship many different diety's. I know someone who worships hanuman and I know someoone who worships Kali. The religion has many GODs, and Brahma is the least worship god in mordern Hinduism. I'm impressed with your knowledge of religion.
Originally posted by Violent2Dope
Okay here's how it really happened, there is Samuel L. Jackson, a being who is eternal, has always existed and always will, he created God, who he gave the task of creating reality, you know, the universe, heaven, hell, all that. Why did Jackson do it? No one can analyze what is in Jackson's head, it is an enigma. LMAO

Originally posted by leonheartmm
this is i think a very serious question. why would ANY1 create anything. it cannot be without some sort of inclination. or reason. nothing is done without either DESIRE or NECESSITY. since the omnipotent god has NEITHER desire nor necessity{as he is complete in himself and neither WANTS, nor NEEDS anything outside his ownself. otherwise hed stop being omnipotent} why would he create ANYTHING other than himself. why would indeed he me MOTIVATED to do anything at ALL???? and for those who believe that the world is part of god, we can atleast agree that our CONCIOUSNESS as it is is not completely the SAME as god so the argument still remains.

what motivated him to do so?

God did not create the universe.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
God did not create the universe.

i dont believe he did. but its a question for those who believe he did. if we take god as an axiom with the basic properties which defines him. then the question holds ground for all who claim his existance to be true.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
God did not create the universe. You don't know that, and you can't give us unrefutable evidence that he didn't, so don't say it like it's a fact.

Originally posted by Violent2Dope
You don't know that, and you can't give us unrefutable evidence that he didn't, so don't say it like it's a fact.

You don't know that god created the universe. You cannot show any facts. My claim is just as good as any other, and it fixes the problem that this thread points out.


Originally posted by leonheartmm
i dont believe he did. but its a question for those who believe he did. if we take god as an axiom with the basic properties which defines him. then the question holds ground for all who claim his existance to be true.

I was adding spice to your point.

We are both at a standstill, neither on can provide unrefutable evidence whether God did or did not create the universe or if he even exists. Therefore, neither one of us should be able to state whether he did or did not as a fact.

the evidence that God does not excist is easy, the fact that no one can prove his excistence is fact enough

its like a child saying a bogey man is under his bed, if he cannot prove it, which yu cant because as far as ime aware of they dont excist either then the childs mother will not belive it

And you can't prove he doesn't exist.

Originally posted by Violent2Dope
And you can't prove he doesn't exist. This is why there are believers and non-believers.

I assume it's because no one was around to stop him/her/it/them/us.

Originally posted by Violent2Dope
And you can't prove he doesn't exist.

It isn't possible to prove any negative statement though.

Originally posted by Violent2Dope
We are both at a standstill, neither on can provide unrefutable evidence whether God did or did not create the universe or if he even exists. Therefore, neither one of us should be able to state whether he did or did not as a fact.

But I have one piece of evidence on my side; the paradox presented by this thread.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
this is i think a very serious question. why would ANY1 create anything. it cannot be without some sort of inclination. or reason. nothing is done without either DESIRE or NECESSITY. since the omnipotent god has NEITHER desire nor necessity{as he is complete in himself and neither WANTS, nor NEEDS anything outside his ownself. otherwise hed stop being omnipotent} why would he create ANYTHING other than himself. why would indeed he me MOTIVATED to do anything at ALL???? and for those who believe that the world is part of god, we can atleast agree that our CONCIOUSNESS as it is is not completely the SAME as god so the argument still remains.

what motivated him to do so?
Simple: for us to worship Him.Since He is the Most Powerful and has the Power to create,He did it. N in case ur wonderin y any1 would want to create anythin,just stop usin all the modern facilities n try to live.u'll get the answer.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
But I have one piece of evidence on my side; the paradox presented by this thread. I said unrefutable. People percieve God in different ways.

Originally posted by maham
Simple: for us to worship Him.Since He is the Most Powerful and has the Power to create,He did it. N in case ur wonderin y any1 would want to create anythin,just stop usin all the modern facilities n try to live.u'll get the answer.

ahhhhhh. the problem with that is the one mentioned in the first post. did he NEED{necessity} to be worshipped or did he WANT{desire} to be worshipped. either way a perfect being can neither gain, nor need or want ANYTHING, as it alone is perfect, complete and unfazed, as desire and necessity do not hold for an omnipotent being. and how does giving up modern facilities relate to my question of god's motivations for creatign thsi world?

Originally posted by Violent2Dope
And you can't prove he doesn't exist.

that is a wrong view point to be taking. the burden od evidence falls on the shoulder of the one MAKING THE CLAIM{i.e of god's existance} to prove the statement, not on the opposition to disprove it. and yes, there might not be a definitve case for lack of A god /spiritualty. but there most definately ARE definitive arguments against the existance of an OMNIPOTENT/OMNISCIENT/OMNIBENEVOLENT GOD{omnipotence is self contradictory even by the standards of the strictest formal logic. omniscience can exist, alone or with omnibenevolance, but omnisceice can NEVER exist side by side with omnipotence. omnibenevolance cant exist with omnipotence as far as their is even potential for the concept of anything even slightly negetive in this world}. well ill let my dear friend bertie russel do the talking for me.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell%27s_teapot

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_proof

Originally posted by leonheartmm
ahhhhhh. the problem with that is the one mentioned in the first post. did he NEED{necessity} to be worshipped or did he WANT{desire} to be worshipped. either way a perfect being can neither gain, nor need or want ANYTHING, as it alone is perfect, complete and unfazed, as desire and necessity do not hold for an omnipotent being. and how does giving up modern facilities relate to my question of god's motivations for creatign thsi world?
I didn't say we complete Him.We worship Him for He is the only 1 to be worshipped.N u asked y would ANY1 want to create anythin,the facilities thing was for that as man created all these things cuz he wanted to.

N anyway,this topic is a bit stupid cuz if Allah didn't want to create us we wouldn't be here,wud we?

Originally posted by maham
...N anyway,this topic is a bit stupid cuz if Allah didn't want to create us we wouldn't be here,wud we?

Perhaps we would be here, after all, we are here.

Originally posted by maham
I didn't say we complete Him.We worship Him for He is the only 1 to be worshipped.N u asked y would ANY1 want to create anythin,the facilities thing was for that as man created all these things cuz he wanted to.

N anyway,this topic is a bit stupid cuz if Allah didn't want to create us we wouldn't be here,wud we?

no, your a bit silly for believing allah created anything. or the fact that allah exist. neither is logically possible. and when i said ANY1, i went on to elaborate the motivations for doing anyhting{including creation} that any entity can have. and since allah/god cant not have these motivations based on him being omnipotent and complete. it is impossible for the islamic/biblical god to have created us and the universe unless those scriptures are lying about his attributes.

again. no1 creates anything other than because of desire/necessity, and a perfect self sufficient being can not have either of those traits.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
i dont believe he did. but its a question for those who believe he did. if we take god as an axiom with the basic properties which defines him. then the question holds ground for all who claim his existance to be true.

Great thread, leonheartmm. Your original post poses a profound theological question that lies at the heart of the Christian/Jewish concept of God. How can a perfect, self-completing being desire to create anything? This delimmna is perhaps even more pronounced in the Christian faith because of belief in the triune intra-personal communication between the distinct persons within the Godhead (Father, Son, Holy Spirit). If God is already a communion of divine persons, there is not even a need to create a self-image ( man) since that image is already eternally presesnt. The traditional answer to this question refers to God's creative act as the prototype of the Christian ideal of agapic (free, self-giving love). However, this answer poses other questions, most notably, love for what? The non-existent?

As a believing Catholic, I have to say that there is no empirically convincing answer to this question one way or the other. It is one of those things we refer to as a mystery - a reality we believe in yet remain incapable of explaining.

For what it's worth, I do think it's possible that God's "perfections" (his onimpotence, his ominiscience) are scholastic hand-me-downs that reflect a desire to fit a set of divine attributes into a self-consistent philosophical system more than a concrete experience of the divine person revealed in the Hebrew/Christian scriptures. In other words, the God revealed to the Jews is probably not the same colorless prime-moving being elaborated upon by Aquinas et al. In fact, I'm pretty sure it's not.

What do I believe in relation to God's nature and the creation of the universe? I think that there is a ghost in the machine - A mysterious, being without discernible origin, who, while transcendent to the material universe, nonetheless acts within that medium to effect "creation" - a set of anthropic events that leads to life, and eventually us. Why? I might be straying into heresy here, but I think it must have something to do with self-knowledge. God creates to know himself through his creation. (This is an argument that the ex-Jesuit Jack Miles makes in his book "God". God loves man because man (as God's image) acts out God's own unexpressed/unrealized inner life.

LOL. So, leonheartmm, to answer your question. I guess what I'm saying is that I agree with you. God's philosophical perfection is incompatible with God's creative act. And since I still believe in God's existence, I'll dispense with the scholastic humbug and retain the living, and much more interesting, God revealed to the Jews.

we don't know.

simple as that.

we don't even know the cure for common cold.

no point in trying to stretch our teensy cellular understanding of all things to unimaginable limits.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
God did not create the universe.
Boy I sure love it when people state their BELIEFS as FACT...

Easy, because god doesn't exist. Period.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Boy I sure love it when people state their BELIEFS as FACT...

You only assume that. I was simple giving my answer to the question without being ambiguous.

I wonder how JesusIsAlive never post in a thread that makes sense.

Originally posted by JesusTheChrist
I wonder how JesusIsAlive never post in a thread that makes sense.

PM him and ask him, but let us know the answer.

Metaphorically speaking: maybe God is testing Himself, to see if He can create beings capable of finding the answer.

Originally posted by Mindship
Metaphorically speaking: maybe God is testing Himself, to see if He can create beings capable of finding the answer.

If God is omniscient, then that would be pointless.

Originally posted by Adam_PoE
If God is omniscient, then that would be pointless. I knew someone was gonna say that. That's why I said, metaphorically speaking, so as not to stretch it too far. After all, if God is infinite in every imaginable and unimaginable capacity, then our limited, linear language could highlight, at best, only the tiniest sliver of divine motivation.

This is, of course, assuming for this thread, that the Big G exists.

hmmm. the hardcore believers still fail to comment .

Originally posted by maham
Simple: for us to worship Him.Since He is the Most Powerful and has the Power to create,He did it. N in case ur wonderin y any1 would want to create anythin,just stop usin all the modern facilities n try to live.u'll get the answer.


If God created us for the simple purpose of being worshipped, then he is a selfish and superficial being. If I had that power, I would do far better things than create people to worship me.

hmmm, marchello hasnt posted here yet. i think this thread shud not die yet.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
this is i think a very serious question. why would ANY1 create anything. it cannot be without some sort of inclination. or reason. nothing is done without either DESIRE or NECESSITY. since the omnipotent god has NEITHER desire nor necessity{as he is complete in himself and neither WANTS, nor NEEDS anything outside his ownself. otherwise hed stop being omnipotent} why would he create ANYTHING other than himself. why would indeed he me MOTIVATED to do anything at ALL???? and for those who believe that the world is part of god, we can atleast agree that our CONCIOUSNESS as it is is not completely the SAME as god so the argument still remains.

what motivated him to do so?

Good question...but God does have a desire.

"For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all of mankind to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."

1 Timothy 2:3-4

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
PM him and ask him, but let us know the answer. I shall reveal to you his PM to me:

JesusIsAlive wrote on May 6th, 2007 10:00 PM:

A number of people have imparted the gospel of Jesus Christ to me.

Originally posted by Goddess Kali
If God created us for the simple purpose of being worshipped, then he is a selfish and superficial being. If I had that power, I would do far better things than create people to worship me.
Like what?

Originally posted by lord xyz
I shall reveal to you his PM to me:

JesusIsAlive wrote on May 6th, 2007 10:00 PM:

A number of people have imparted the gospel of Jesus Christ to me.

That means he was told how to believe by other humans.

The problem is God is not something we can comprehend. Look at how small we are in comparison to everything in the world, then comes the solar system, the galaxy etc etc.... If God made all this then how can we even begin to understand or comprehend such a person?

True.

The one scripture in the original greek states "In the beginning was the Logos, and the Logos was with God, and the Logos was God."


It has been translated "Word", but it has a much more broad meaning such as to notions such as "Idea, thought, speech, account, meaning, reason, proportion, principle, standard", or "logic", even the laws of nature.

Originally posted by ESB -1138
Good question...but God does have a desire.

"For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all of mankind to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."

1 Timothy 2:3-4

This doesnt really answer the question now, does it? If youre such a perfect being, why create mankind on the first place?


Assuming that he exists, i think God simply feels incomplete without someone - that would be us humans - to scare and boss around.

actually once you CONFINE god by ANY idea{including omnipotence/self completeion etc} then there is a template for human beings to relate to. the bible doesnt call him just trancendental does it. and the size of galaxies has no implication on human thought. big or small. if he has defined himself and is not different from the definition then he is subject to the laws of that definition.

the question still remains.

A god would not need to do anything, which means it doesn't have a need to create. If god has a need, then it is not perfect, but lacking. Therefore god is lacking. Can god be lacking and still be a god I wonder.

Originally posted by debbiejo
A god would not need to do anything, which means it doesn't have a need to create. If god has a need, then it is not perfect, but lacking. Therefore god is lacking. Can god be lacking and still be a god I wonder.

Therefore, God does not need. That means that the bible is wrong.

The God of the Bible is very human.

*

***You are NOT God...you DON'T have that POWER...so your CONTENTION is IRRELEVANT.

Marchello

Originally posted by Marchello


***You are NOT God...you DON'T have that POWER...so your CONTENTION is IRRELEVANT.

Marchello



Shut up

*

***NOTHING was said to COMMENT on.

Marchello

Originally posted by Marchello
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***NOTHING was said to COMMENT on.

Marchello

Originally posted by Marchello
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***You are NOT God...you DON'T have that POWER...so your CONTENTION is IRRELEVANT.

Marchello

However, soon we will be able to create life.

Originally posted by Marchello
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***NOTHING was said to COMMENT on.

Marchello

Too afraid?

that you know nothing about

Originally posted by Marchello
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***You are NOT God...you DON'T have that POWER...so your CONTENTION is IRRELEVANT.

Marchello

lol, you are the one unable to accept the shortcomings of your definition of god. your comment is irrelevant as it did nuthing to address the paradox stated in this thread. spearofdestiny was simply stating his logically backed opinion on the subject. why dont you try and do the same.

really ironic that you never post to address the issue but do to try and mar a poster.

Originally posted by Marchello
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***NOTHING was said to COMMENT on.

Marchello



i thought lying was a vice.

Here is my opinion:

God is an artist, and since everything is created in God's image, we are also creators and artists. You do not really need a reason to paint a picture of the way the moon looks reflecting off of the sea.

Then, your creation exists, and it takes on a life of its own. As a matter of fact, creation is still happening, it never stopped. The expanding universe is infinite and the origin of it all is still a part of it all. We are it. Rocks are it. Planets, animals, mountains, air, even Hummers are all it.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
actually no, none of those relegions give an explanation. and but u also said it. the DESIRE to create sumthing other than itself. when sumthing has DESIRE, that means it lacks sumthing. a complete being can technically never feal DESIRE.
So you are interpeting Christian Love as some sort of weakness or incompleteness? That seems a little odd.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
this is i think a very serious question. why would ANY1 create anything. it cannot be without some sort of inclination. or reason. nothing is done without either DESIRE or NECESSITY. since the omnipotent god has NEITHER desire nor necessity{as he is complete in himself and neither WANTS, nor NEEDS anything outside his ownself. otherwise hed stop being omnipotent} why would he create ANYTHING other than himself. why would indeed he me MOTIVATED to do anything at ALL???? and for those who believe that the world is part of god, we can atleast agree that our CONCIOUSNESS as it is is not completely the SAME as god so the argument still remains.

what motivated him to do so?

What motivated Universe to come into existence?

i am not interpreting christian love as a "weakness". that word is ambiguous. its simpler to interpret it as INCOMPLETENESS. god is not complete in his self, therefore, he DESIRES sumthing that he does not posess.

as for the universe, i do not know. it could have always existed in one form or another. there could have been some happening trancending its transitioning states which acted as first cause etc. we do not know .

{btw, why do u have a flag of israel in you sig?}

It's not ambiguous at all. It is clearly defined. One might place their own fuzzy words and feelings to it, but that would be their problem.

yes it is very ambiguous. what exactly would you define as weakness, the phenomenon of lacking sumthing, or the phenomenon of simply CHOOSING one thing, reguardless of it leading to having more or less?

it is complete;y inadequate when referring to god's omnipotence.

is a man weak for choosing to serve people as opposed to serving himself? serving himself will bring him more personally, but he is also being weak in the sense that he is following his desirs without resisting them.

a person who serves others will have less than the person who serves himself{by your definitions making him WEAKER than the selfish person}, but he will also have the strength to follow his own decisions and resist temptation. now tell me, does incompleteness=weakness identity work here to defining who is weak and who is strong?

I thought you were referring to "love" as being ambiguous. Since, you weren't.

lol., no. i was referring to "weakness" being an ambiguous term.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
However, soon we will be able to create life.

We already do create life. It's called conception.

Originally posted by willofthewisp
We already do create life. It's called conception.

But that is not creating life because the egg and sperm are both alive. If ether is dead a child will not be made.

God doesn't keep choosing what he will create or not like if life was somekind of game. Things just are the way they are.

Why not?



Originally posted by omygoddess
God is an artist, and since everything is created in God's image, we are also creators and artists. You do not really need a reason to paint a picture of the way the moon looks reflecting off of the sea.

Then, your creation exists, and it takes on a life of its own. As a matter of fact, creation is still happening, it never stopped. The expanding universe is infinite and the origin of it all is still a part of it all. We are it. Rocks are it. Planets, animals, mountains, air, even Hummers are all it.

God created everything in order to display His power and His attributes.

Therefore the purpose of creation is to bring glory to God.

Thats not to say that God needs creation. God is a completely self sufficient God who does not need anything outside of Himself. The work of creation is simply the act of God's almighty will.

Originally posted by Gannon
God created everything in order to display His power and His attributes.

Therefore the purpose of creation is to bring glory to God.

Thats not to say that God needs creation. God is a completely self sufficient God who does not need anything outside of Himself. The work of creation is simply the act of God's almighty will. so god needed things to say oh your so GREAT!!!!! wow what a lame excuse. if he was PERFECT, he wouldnt need worship. DUH

Originally posted by leonheartmm
this is i think a very serious question. why would ANY1 create anything. it cannot be without some sort of inclination. or reason. nothing is done without either DESIRE or NECESSITY. since the omnipotent god has NEITHER desire nor necessity{as he is complete in himself and neither WANTS, nor NEEDS anything outside his ownself. otherwise hed stop being omnipotent} why would he create ANYTHING other than himself. why would indeed he me MOTIVATED to do anything at ALL???? and for those who believe that the world is part of god, we can atleast agree that our CONCIOUSNESS as it is is not completely the SAME as god so the argument still remains.

what motivated him to do so?

Thats like asking the man who owns the nearest shop what made Gordon Brown choose to wear a Purple Tie...

^how so?

Originally posted by leonheartmm
this is i think a very serious question. why would ANY1 create anything. it cannot be without some sort of inclination. or reason. nothing is done without either DESIRE or NECESSITY. since the omnipotent god has NEITHER desire nor necessity{as he is complete in himself and neither WANTS, nor NEEDS anything outside his ownself. otherwise hed stop being omnipotent} why would he create ANYTHING other than himself. why would indeed he me MOTIVATED to do anything at ALL???? and for those who believe that the world is part of god, we can atleast agree that our CONCIOUSNESS as it is is not completely the SAME as god so the argument still remains.

what motivated him to do so? God didn't make anything outside it's self. If you want to call it god, that is.

^but our conciousnesses are discreet entities in themselves. they are not completely part of god.

Gotta love people who aren't inhibited by the need to qualify their opinions with reason or evidence...you get such poetic (though indefensible) visions of God and creation. The recent "God is an artist" pastiche is a perfect example. Why fight that sort of thing? They aren't organized in a religious sect, so they'll never reach the critical mass that mainstream religion does (which is the point where religious beliefs can do societal damage), so it's just fun to listen to...and honestly just as reasonable as most religious positions.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
Gotta love people who aren't inhibited by the need to qualify their opinions with reason or evidence...you get such poetic (though indefensible) visions of God and creation. The recent "God is an artist" pastiche is a perfect example. Why fight that sort of thing? They aren't organized in a religious sect, so they'll never reach the critical mass that mainstream religion does (which is the point where religious beliefs can do societal damage), so it's just fun to listen to...and honestly just as reasonable as most religious positions. i guess. you get alot of wierd interpretations of god with new age thinking

Originally posted by leonheartmm
^but our conciousnesses are discreet entities in themselves. they are not completely part of god. They could be fractional parts if you understand what I'm trying to say.

yes but fractional still leaves room for parts which ARENT god or part of him.

How so? Oh, and I wouldn't call god a him.

fractional =/= completely

I have my own ideas of what God is...and you can't take it away from me

Originally posted by leonheartmm
fractional =/= completely Completely fractional.

Originally posted by LatinoStallion
I think only an imcomplete, imperfect, and lonely being would be motivated to create something other than itself.

If something is perfect and complete, it will not need or want another apart from itself, since it already embodies everything.

I could be wrong, but that's how I see it.



Now, others may say the motivation of this being to create another is love...the desire to care for something other than itself. This may be a very Christian, Jewish, or Muslim way of thinking.

However, the concept of Hell throws that idea off. If Love was truly the motivator of creation, then why would this being aim to punish something it created ? Why would it want its creation to suffer simply for disobeying it if love was the motive ?

You're answering your own question. You ask a question where we are to assume that love is the motivation of creation and then you say why would a God aim to punish us. I thought we originally established that the purpose behind creation was for God to express love towards us, not punishment. God does not want those who do wrong to go to hell, then as you have already said, and as I believe, God created us to express his love towards something.

to WANT to love is unlike a perfect entity. perfection does not REQUIRE addition or editing.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
this is i think a very serious question. why would ANY1 create anything. it cannot be without some sort of inclination. or reason. nothing is done without either DESIRE or NECESSITY. since the omnipotent god has NEITHER desire nor necessity{as he is complete in himself and neither WANTS, nor NEEDS anything outside his ownself. otherwise hed stop being omnipotent} why would he create ANYTHING other than himself. why would indeed he me MOTIVATED to do anything at ALL???? and for those who believe that the world is part of god, we can atleast agree that our CONCIOUSNESS as it is is not completely the SAME as god so the argument still remains.

what motivated him to do so?

Yeah. Boredom.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
this is i think a very serious question. why would ANY1 create anything. it cannot be without some sort of inclination. or reason. nothing is done without either DESIRE or NECESSITY. since the omnipotent god has NEITHER desire nor necessity{as he is complete in himself and neither WANTS, nor NEEDS anything outside his ownself. otherwise hed stop being omnipotent} why would he create ANYTHING other than himself. why would indeed he me MOTIVATED to do anything at ALL???? and for those who believe that the world is part of god, we can atleast agree that our CONCIOUSNESS as it is is not completely the SAME as god so the argument still remains.

what motivated him to do so?

Seriously, have you ever asked him?

i dont know where he lives. plus ive heard that hes high headed and doesnt often come when called for.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
i dont know where he lives. plus ive heard that hes high headed and doesnt often come when called for.

Thus the problem with your question. I can only be answered by a person who is either A) made up, B) not a "person" or C) not interested in giving an answer.

^or maybe that wasnt the point of the question

Originally posted by leonheartmm
^or maybe that wasnt the point of the question

hmm

i know that the question is unanswerable. its made for people to ponder over the contradiction in the beleif that an omnipotent/omniscient/perfect god who needs nors desires anything , created our universe.

Some people, just like things...

huh?

Originally posted by leonheartmm
huh?

Your argument fails because you are attacking man's understanding of God...rather than God himself.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
i know that the question is unanswerable. its made for people to ponder over the contradiction in the beleif that an omnipotent/omniscient/perfect god who needs nors desires anything , created our universe.

That requires the totally baseless assumptions that God has no personality and that God desires nothing.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
That requires the totally baseless assumptions that God has no personality and that God desires nothing.

He is now going to say if he has desires then he isn't perfect. As if he, an imperfect being can tell other imperfect beings what perfection should be.

Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
Your argument fails because you are attacking man's understanding of God...rather than God himself.

ultimate copout. like the argument, that god is beyond logic hence no logical argument can be created against him. fact is, how do you KNOW he is beyond logic to begin with, how do you KNOW he even exists.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
That requires the totally baseless assumptions that God has no personality and that God desires nothing.

unless he is a perfect all powerful and all knowing god. its not baseless because most people beleive that god wants nothing from us and this universe and cant be GIVEN anything {which wud ofcourse imply the fact that he is lacking sumthing to begin with or is our inferior in some way or is imperfect in some way}

Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
He is now going to say if he has desires then he isn't perfect. As if he, an imperfect being can tell other imperfect beings what perfection should be.

desires function to giev you things which you dont posess. by definition, you cant desire sumthing which you already posess. are you then implying that god lacks sumthing that we can give him?

the last sentence is another copout.

If that is what you want to believe thats fine.

Unfortunatley your arguments died out with the bubonic plague.

However, you are correct to say I am coping out. I cannot answer that question, I don't know why he did it, I don't even know if he did it...I dont even know if he's perfect or what his personal circumstances are.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
this is i think a very serious question. why would ANY1 create anything. it cannot be without some sort of inclination. or reason. nothing is done without either DESIRE or NECESSITY. since the omnipotent god has NEITHER desire nor necessity{as he is complete in himself and neither WANTS, nor NEEDS anything outside his ownself. otherwise hed stop being omnipotent} why would he create ANYTHING other than himself. why would indeed he me MOTIVATED to do anything at ALL???? and for those who believe that the world is part of god, we can atleast agree that our CONCIOUSNESS as it is is not completely the SAME as god so the argument still remains.

what motivated him to do so?

I think he's more like us than we believe. Maybe he had all that a being would need or want, he certainly could create what he felt he was lacking...as all species of life work to better themselves...or rather...to progress. Maybe there is a degree of existence above perfection. No one on this earth could possibly know, could they?

That and...kids have to go to school at some point, no?

Just my thought on the matter.

Oh...and creation was for our benifit ultimately...not His. This is our world and we can accept or we can deny any help from him to get through it and on to the next stage of perfection. We have to learn here...or somewhere. I'm guessing humanity is a huge part of perfection. Its also a downfall if you use it wrong and thus you bring yourself damnnation rather than salvation.

Yeah...again, just my thoughts on it.

^but how can it be for our benefit when we didn even exist when it was created?

maybe god just got bored

We don' t know, we can' t know and we can only wonder.

Originally posted by Storm
We don' t know, we can' t know and we can only wonder. BULLSHIT. making a statement like that is the kind of bullshit that makes society dumb. WE CANknow. if we cant, then science will invent something that can know. to say we cant is ignorant, and the kind of hippie ignorance that stupifies america.

Originally posted by Kella
Oh...and creation was for our benifit ultimately...not His. This is our world and we can accept or we can deny any help from him to get through it and on to the next stage of perfection. We have to learn here...or somewhere. I'm guessing humanity is a huge part of perfection. Its also a downfall if you use it wrong and thus you bring yourself damnnation rather than salvation.

Yeah...again, just my thoughts on it. yep a species that steals lies, can have mutations during reproduction, suffers mental and physical retardation, gets wiped out by microbes, and still cant colonize another planet is perfetion. believe what ya want buddy. because if thats true, meet mentally retarded, homeless, poor deformed god whos very sickly.

Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
If that is what you want to believe thats fine.

Unfortunatley your arguments died out with the bubonic plague.

However, you are correct to say I am coping out. I cannot answer that question, I don't know why he did it, I don't even know if he did it...I dont even know if he's perfect or what his personal circumstances are. so basically you dont even know the god of the bible. all you know is a feeling. because truly, whats the point of worshipping a maybe?

Originally posted by chickenlover98
so basically you dont even know the god of the bible. all you know is a feeling. because truly, whats the point of worshipping a maybe?

What is the point of worshiping God? An all knowing and all powerful God would not need worship. An all knowing and all powerful God would not need anything.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
What is the point of worshiping God? An all knowing and all powerful God would not need worship. An all knowing and all powerful God would not need anything. am i arguing that he should worship god? or anything besides Chuck Norris? no im not. a "god" is a useless idea designed to provide comfort to people who are to insecure to rely on themselves for guidance. hell the concept of "god" was originally created because of natural disasters. ancient civilizations thought they occured because of "gods" getting pissed off when they do something wrong

Originally posted by chickenlover98
am i arguing that he should worship god? or anything besides Chuck Norris? no im not. a "god" is a useless idea designed to provide comfort to people who are to insecure to rely on themselves for guidance. hell the concept of "god" was originally created because of natural disasters. ancient civilizations thought they occured because of "gods" getting pissed off when they do something wrong

God is more then that. God is the desire to know. God is an icon that reflects a deep understanding of the human condition. God is only a belief, but we live in a world were beliefs count. This is because they motivate people to survive, and survival is everything.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
nothing is done without either DESIRE or NECESSITY.

While I agree that a perfect being does not need or want, I disagree with that statement. Not everything is done out of desire or necessity. Some actions are illogical and/or "just for the hell of it". Maybe God created all things just because he could. I'm sure you can relate to this line of thinking; having done things just because you can or for the sake of it.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
God is more then that. God is the desire to know. God is an icon that reflects a deep understanding of the human condition. God is only a belief, but we live in a world were beliefs count. This is because they motivate people to survive, and survival is everything.

You really like attributing arbitrary things to God don't you? God is above all those petty concepts you listed.

why did god create ANYTHING outside his own existance?

company?drunk beer beer?