Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

You think these two could defeat Yoda in a duel of sabers?

yoda dies

Exar or Dooku alone can give Yoda a good fight, together they beat Yoda. Bad thread.

Stupid thread, Dooku alone is very close w/ Yoda.

Considering Yoda shitted on Dooku while being half distracted, trying to turn Dooku and Dooku being on Vjun basically a dark side nexus and Exar Kun who is on the level of Yoda or Dooku in dueling since when now? I'd say he beats them both.

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
Considering Yoda shitted on Dooku while being half distracted, trying to turn Dooku and Dooku being on Vjun basically a dark side nexus and Exar Kun who is on the level of Yoda or Dooku in dueling since when now? I'd say he beats them both.

That's riduculous. Yoda never shitted on Dooku, Dooku did put up a pretty good fight against him and proved himself nearly on par with Mace in Obsession. Kun curb-stomped Vodo and stalemated Ulic before creating the double-bladed lightsaber. Yoda would pwn neither of these power-houses alone, and together he'd stand no chance against them.

I don't see Yoda beating them both at the same time.

Styles that's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. If anything Kun IS on the level of Yoda in saber combat, and at the very least, DOoku. Yoda gets wtfpwned by these two.

What you talkin about...Yoda DIES!

i mean if Sidious alone can beat Yoda what do you think those 2 would do teamed up together

Whats ridicules is you attempting to argue against this.




A pretty good fight? Dooku is on Vjun a planet steeped in the dark side that the narration describes Dooku's bladework on this planet as:

"Malice made visable-wickedness cut in red light."

Dooku with this planet amping him up still Yoda was the clear better as the narration again describes:

"Slowly, slowly, Dooku gave way: and in the dark drunken air, Yoda was terrible to behold."

Other then that he was tired as shit:

"Sweat ran in streams down Dooku's beard...his lips were white."

While Yoda seems to be perfectly fine.

Finally, Dooku admits he was falt out overpowered by Yoda:

"There was always the chance you would overpower me, of course...so I put a missile in high orbit slaved to this location, its falling now gathering speed."

He uses this missile as a means to escape Yoda because he was as said flat out overpowered.

Now, this is Dooku on a planet drunk with the Dark Side of the force where his powers are at their apex, the Dooku were using for this is not, and were assuming Yoda has no reservations about killing Dooku: he'd make short work of him, alone the lines of what Anakin did in ROTS.



Thats great, and would be a valid point if Yoda wasn't you know: BETTER THEN MACE.



OMG u serious?!! He did!!1 Please show me ONE SOURCE (just one and I'll concede the WHOLE argument) that says Vodo was worth two shits on a stick in a lightsaber duel, considering the dude used a high powered stick and even when Kun is a padawan the only advantage the narration says Vodo has over him is experience. So Vodo was some stupid crab who can't even hold a candle to a angry padawan, what even puts him in the same league as Yoda, why even mention this?



Again, who gives a shit. Compare Ulic to Dooku, Dooku is the obvious superior, compare Ulic to Depa, Depa is the obvious superior, even Obi Wan would tap that ass in a saber duel, so please tell me how this little feat puts Kun on par with Yoda?



BZZZZT! wrong.





BZZZZT! wrong, again so sorry.



I'd like to know where you came to the illogical conclusion that a guy who hadn't completed his lightsaber training under a proven incompetent who isn't worth a shit in a saber duel, is illogically called a master swordsman a few weeks later even though he had no extra saber practice then develops a new blade with 6 months max to train with it against scrubs is now on the the level a man who has about 50 years of experience on him, a complete master of Makashi, a guy who can compete with Mace Windu who has a custom style to beat dark siders and has mastered many other styles, who can atleast stand against Yoda.

That alone is dumb enough but your trying to compare him to a 900 year old Jedi Master who is better then the before-mentioned Mace Windu WITHOUT Vaapad, is regarded by the Jedi order as the one true lightsaber master according to PoTJ, whose blade work is described as terrible, who shitted on the before-mentioned Dooku on a planet steeped with the dark side, who murked the most powerful Sith ever in a straight up saber duel, who was described as the most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness has ever faced, a being who moves faster the three Jedi Masters attacking him at once, one of them being Depa whose own saber skills in Mace Windus own estimations exceed his own. Really dude, are you serious?

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
Whats ridicules is you attempting to argue against this.
Says the man who claims Yoda is superior to BOTH Exar Kun and Dooku.




Wonderful, you've established Yoda is better than Dooku, thank you captain obvious. But the other obvious fact you failed to mention is that Yoda is not miles ahead of Dooku in saber combat, he's just better. Furthermore, it can be argued that Exar Kun is at the very least, as good as Dooku, so please tell me what makes you think Yoda will win this fight and not get wtfpwned.


Except the point IS valid because MACE is a better fighter against dark siders, than Yoda. Or more effective, rather.




Yes, lets diminish Kun by attempting to diminish his master, wonderful strategy. Kun was a saber prodigy, and was in his OWN league. Ulic, who stalemated a Jedi without the force, managed to stalemate him before Kun developed his new style and blade. Add his force mastery and combat prowess, and Kun would give Yoda a run for his life, if not defeat him in saber combat.




Wow, this isn't even an argument but PT fanboyism. Dooku is superior to Ulic? I'm glad you have an argument for that, oh wait. Depa is superior to Ulic? Wow, what a compelling argument. So your entire argument is based on your assumption, way to go.




Denial is a *****..




Yes, Vodo was a proven incompetent. Your PT fanboyism has taken over your illogical arguments. A few weeks later? Obviously the star wars timeline went completely over your head. OMG Dooku was a complete master of Makashi with over 50 years of experience! Yet Sidious, who had less experience, is superior to him in saber combat. Yet Anakin, who had FAR less experience, also beat him. That just destroyed your point, whatever the hell it was.


Yea, I'm comparing Kun's saber abilities with Yoda, not to mention force abilities, meaning they're in the same league. However, you add DOOKU in there and Yoda gets his ass kicked. And again, you show your lack of debating skills. Because Mace thinks Depa is better than him, means that she is? Well then I guess the ancient sith are gods because Kreia said so..

Is this meant to be serious??

No, I've established that Yoda is the clear better over a Dooku whose powers are at their apex on a world steeped with the dark side, now compare the performance Dooku put out (the one where he's sweating like a mad man, half dehydrated, being pushed back and needing to throw people at Yoda to distract him and use missiles to retreat) on the before said world. To that of a Dooku who DOESN'T have the before mentioned advantages (I'm assuming this takes place on a force neutral flat surface) the logical conclusion...He gets shitted on, Yoda IS Dooku's superior BY FAR.



Please try, I need a good laugh.



Because Exar Kun is NOWHERE in their league, the more appropriate question would be why in the hell do you think Kun even holds a candle to Yoda?



He has a better tools against the dark side I'll admit that anyday, but again it doesn't matter as Yoda is a better duelist then him: Period. Mace admits this, a number of sourcebooks say this and even without Vaapad he can accomplish the same results ie: punking out Palpatine, and beating down Dooku.




I know it is a wonderful strategy.

Unless you have some valid evidence to claim that Vodo is some kind of beast in saber combat, it IS a wonderful strategy, considering the fact that the only edge he had on his angry Padawan was experience, and even still the almighty saber prodigy Exar Kun got put on his ass.

Vodo's only described advantage in a saber duel is and I quote: "the skill of long experience" please tell me how beating this average at best Jedi in a duel amounts to ANYTHING at all?



LOL, same old shit, prove up or shut up. Let me guess what makes him a saber prodigy? Cuase he beat Vodo ? Cause he stalemated Ulic? Cause he beat up on Crado and Sylvar? No, Exar Kun is no saber prodigy if thats the case and the criteria for being a "saber prodigy" is so low then people such as Sora Bluq and Sera Keto (whom both have far more dueling accomplishments then Kun, and both are very skilled) and Plo Koon all apply.




Out of context anyone? It said his "Dark Power" was in its own league, it DOESN'T say in terms of saber ability, hell it doesn't even account for the Jedi, it only accounts for him and his pathetic followers, that include the likes of the ubah powaful Krath, the super 20 or so padawans he played child molester with ("Hey guys come back to me to my place I got lots of sith amulets for you to touch!" and ahh mister Emo himself Ulic Qel Droma...some power.



Oh you mean 'rawr me so angry' Sylvar? Who greatest feats in TOTJ are killing bugs? And we've been through this before, he didn't stalemate shit, a stalemate implies that neither side would budge, you and I both know thats not what happened: Ulic ran, mounted no offense then gave up.



Oh yes the amazing new style he had 6 months to train with...are you gonna go on and on about his super duper unique style again? Newsflash unique styles aren't the be all end all of dueling as Neophyte Kyle Katarn multiple foes with rare and unique styles including Maw. If Kyle could adapt Yoda most certainly can.



What combat prowess? the dudes been in a total of what 5 saber duels in his whole life? Compared to the 900 year old Jedi Master...



I'm so sorry I expected people(you) here to have common sense not to lump people like Ulic with someone such as Dooku who was described as "one of the most powerful Jedi Masters the order ever produced in its 25k year history and an even greater Sith Lord", someone who was called a "consummate duelist" who was in "superb physical condition" for being 80. A man who completely mastered Makashi and beat Sora Bluq who is described as:


"...one of the greatest lightsaber instructors the Jedi order had ever known, perfecting the various forms of combat techniques, both classical and experimental. He even helped Mace Windu perfect the art of vaapad, the seventh form of lightsaber combat so intense and dangerous, that to practice it was to tread perilously close to the dark side."

AND Tholme at the same time, someone who could beat Grevious without going all out (CW Grevious that is) the same Grevious who WTFpwned 5 Jedi at the same time (a party including three Jedi Masters and two Knights) who can compete with the likes of Mace Windu and Yoda.




Depa whom Mace said had better pure bladework then him at the time of the Clone Wars...ya I'd say that puts her above Ulic in the saber skills department.




What bullshit, your "argument" if you wanna call it that, is based on a bunch of useless information that Advent refuted weeks ago that STILL doesn't put Exar on Yoda or Dooku's level. Way to go




And DS with no valid argument as usual resorts back to his tired insults.




Um yeah its pretty obvious if you read the source material:

He sees the dark path Kun's going down and trys to lecture Exar Kun about how violence is wrong and such by kicking his ass...

He tries to fight a Sith Lord who had just frozen the senate by his power with a broken stick...

He takes curiously only 4 Jedi to the trial of the most heinous war criminal in the Republic who had committed war crimes bordering on Genocide...

He agrees to take Exar Kun on as a student...

Didn't tell any of the other Jedi that "Hey uhh guys my curiously strong padawans on Korriban screaming for help and is in the clutches of a Sith spirit. Maybe we should investigate a bit...just a thought."

Oh yeah and he tried to fight a freakin Sith Lord with a broken stick....



I don't know the timeline? From the start of the Deneba conclave to the crowning of Exar as Dark Lord of the Sith, the only given indication of time passed is a few weeks. Exar Kun spent a few days at most on Onderon and Dxun, little time in Korriban and dug in with Naga Sadows notes for a few weeks. Read the source material, then get back to me.



The utter crap you spew is baffling and the sad thing is you don't even see that you didn't make a single point, let alone "destroy" something. You do know you just compared Dooku to Darth f*cking Sidious the "Most Powerful Sith Lord EVER" and Anakin f*cking Skywalker the "Chosen One" a 'true' saber prodigy who went from being good to a complete Master of the art in 3 short years and learned the most dangerous styles of "every form of combat" who had astonishing physical power on the level of a droid and was fast as hell.


Yea, I'm comparing Kun's saber abilities with Yoda, not to mention force abilities , meaning they're in the same league.



De De de...



*Yawn*




Are you really that dense? Depa was Mace's padawan, helped Mace create Vaapad likely spared with Mace a number of times, I think Mace is a great authority on whos better then HIMSELF. Where as Kreia is talking about things that happened 1000's of years before she was even a thought, and is going of large amounts of here-say. You see the diff?

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
No, I've established that Yoda is the clear better over a Dooku whose powers are at their apex on a world steeped with the dark side, now compare the performance Dooku put out (the one where he's sweating like a mad man, half dehydrated, being pushed back and needing to throw people at Yoda to distract him and use missiles to retreat) on the before said world. To that of a Dooku who DOESN'T have the before mentioned advantages (I'm assuming this takes place on a force neutral flat surface) the logical conclusion...He gets shitted on, Yoda IS Dooku's superior BY FAR.
What you've done is somehow try and convince yourself that Yoda is miles ahead of Dooku, which isn't the case. IF that was the case then your original belief that Yoda could somehow magically take both combatants at once, would work, or at least be valid.




I've already had one with "Yoda pwns all".




That's a matter of opinion, and a retarded one at best. THe best swordsman of his era is nowhere in their league because they're PT Jedi.. Nice. And in reality he IS in their league at the very least.




Yet another simple concept eludes you. We're not debating who's the better duelist between the TWO. Who is Yoda pitted against? OH yes, two darksiders. Ergo, Mace is better than Yoda in this case. We know Yoda can beat Mace, but we also know Mace is unstoppable against dark sider users.



Yes, the almighty padawan got put on his ass. Great logic there. But please, with all the PT Fanboyism running wild, lets diminish Exar Kun because he was above and beyond everyone in their time. It seems like the common PT logic.

Vodo's only described advantage in a saber duel is and I quote: "the


Being a master swordsman, second to none, developing his saber and own style. Actually Exar Kun iS STATED as a saber prodigy so your pathetic attempts to diminish the character don't work when you argue against facts. Ulic was also a saber prodigy. But omg they're not PT so they MUST SUCK!!*$*$!





Oh boo hoo lets call non PT jedi names.. I guess I can relate to the little drugged up muppet, shaft, and sauruman. What's your point? OH that's right, your argument consists of trying to diminish the OTHER characters rather than attempting to make a case for yours. Great strategy there copernicus, what will you do for us next, juggle 10 bowling pins in a pit of fire?




No, a stalemate means they fought, and there was no victor. Would you like me to post the dictionary.com definition of stalemate, or would you rather go on your "instincts", that haven't helped you yet.




Omg only 6 months!(!*#!(*# Anakin trained for 10 years and wtfpwned someone who's trained for 60. Your point, as always, is moot. Oh newsflast butthonkey, I never even once mentioned that his unique style and saber would have ANY impact on this fight. If you plan on arguing(poorly), don't add words into my text.




Ok...Wow and? Why wouldn't I put Ulic in the same league? His track record speaks for itself. Nobody said he was better but he's definitely in the league. In saber combat that is, not force abilities. And Kun? More than likely better than him in saber abilities and definitely better than him in the force. Oh but wait, Kun only have a few years to practice force techniques and Dooku had 60, so quantity>quality according to you.



No, see if you had any evidence then it would. But unfortunately someone's opinion doesn't constitute as fact without any other sources backing it up.





REally, where did Advent place Exar Kun below Dooku and Yoda? Furthermore, being in the same league doesn't mean he's better, and in no way does it mean Yoda is somehow going to take down 2 powerful combatants in his league.





This coming from the tool that would prefer to talk trash about non PT characters, rather than forming a logical argument himself.



Yea, broken. I guess you forgot the part where he did his little force power thing and made the stick powerful again.




I have... But I'm glad you somehow can interpret Kun's vacation plans and timing.




PLease tell me where I compared Dooku to Sidious, go ahead. Your reading comprehension skills are lacking. And my comparison to Anakin apparently made my point, since you seem to parade around the fact that Dooku had decades to train with his saber and force techniques, so he MUST somehow be better than Exar Kun and Ulic.. Yet he was beaten by ANOTHER saber prodigy who 3 years earlier, he wtfpwned himself. So wait, because Anakin is a saber prodigy in the PT days, he MUST be god. But anyone who is a saber prodigy in non PT days, must SUCK.



And yet, using the only thing to argue that Depa is better than those characters, doesn't work. Know why? Come on you can get this. Oh, it's because someone's opinion, no matter how valid it is, has to be backed up by some kind of fact or proof to make it a fact.

And yet again you do as you usually do: provide no counter argument and simply make assertions assuming your opinion is correct. Here are the facts that you can't seem to grasp:

Yoda beat Dooku on Genosis in about a minute or so while he had reservations about killing him and didn't really want to harm his former Padawan.

Yoda beat Dooku on Vjun a place where Dooku's powers where at their apex and Yoda had nothing but his own skill to draw on, not only did Yoda best Dooku there but he turned Dooku into a sweating, dehydrated mess while Yoda seemingly hadn't even broken a sweat.

Now AGAIN where assuming had a battle between the two taken place on a neutral setting and Dooku has no trump cards (throwing people at Yoda, missiles, planets drunk in the Dark Side) and Yoda has no reservations about killing Dooku: the logical conclusion...Yoda shits on Dooku.

I can't spell it out any planner for you, if you still can't comprehend that then its your problem. I tire of running around in circles with you.




Strawman.

I said Yoda pwns (which he did) Dooku and Yoda pwns Exar Kun in a saber duel, his unpredictable movements ie: constant flipping and spinning would keep the two off balance so they can' mount an effective joint attack, he takes out Kun rather quickly then proceeds to decimate Dooku.




Strawman.

I didn't say anything close to that, the PT Jedi in discussion happens to be you know..."the most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness has ever known." Theres nothing ANYWHERE that says flat out Exar Kun was the best swordsman of his era considering they're thousands of Jedi running around many masters its totally illogical to assume otherwise simple because he got the most screen time.

Prove up or shut the f*ck up , give me ONE source that says Exar Kun was the best swordsman of the TOTJ era and I'll concede the point. But thats not likely to happen as better debater then you namely Advent can't even give me a source that says this.





Yoda being called

"The most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness has ever known" puts him and him alone above ANY advantages Vaapad and the Shatterpoint lends to Mace Windu against dark siders.






I'm waiting DS, I'm waiting for you to prove your all this shit you keep spewing:





PROOF.



Strawman.

Since you like to ignore anything that negates your points: assuming you are correct (your not) the only source on your side that truly speaks of Ulic and Kuns saber ability is one quote from DLOTS that says they "they were like master swordsman". Now please tell me; what the hell does that mean? A master swordsman in comparison to who? Tinn, Plo Koon and Agen Kolar are all master swordsman, yet they were bested in seconds by Palpatine, Sora Bluq is a master-swordsman yet he was owned by Dooku even while he had help from Tholme, Sera Keto is a master swords-woman yet she was tooled easily by Anakin, Cin was a master-swordsman but he was owned by Anakin with one hand. Dooku is a master-swordsman yet Yoda easily handled him. Do you get it yet? Unsubstantiated, unquantified quotes mean NOTHING.





Strawman.

I've more then made a case of my own, for the blind:




And I'm attacking your position and asking you to to prove and substantiate your baseless claims, because with out any form of comparison to the other greats your 'argument' rest on hollow quotes that don't even make sense, half the time (much like you).




I'll do it for you:

2. any position or situation in which no action can be taken or progress made; deadlock: Talks between union and management resulted in a stalemate.

You are correct, it was a stale mate since they both in their own ways gave up. HOWEVER, that does NOT speak well for Ulic considering he ran the entire time and as I said mounted no offense against Sylvar.




And that proves what now? If you take the situation out of context then yes it helps you but with the fact that Anakin was a padawan facing 'one of the greatest Jedi in the history of the 25k year old order and an even better Sith' it doesn't really help. Kun had no one on his level to give him accurate training with his new blade let alone he first had to figure out not to hack his own head of with the thing, half a year at best =/= complete mastery.




I didn't say you did? I ASKED you would you do that? As you did in the last topic regarding this matter. Oh and butthonkey...stick to talks of denial and depression.

'Sexy logic': I say it there fore it is true. Provide me some substantiated proof that puts Ulic Qel Droma in Dooku or Yoda's league. Then kiddo you'll have what we call: an argument.



LAWLZ Kun had a more 'quality' training then Dooku? Dooku who learned under f*cking till that point the most powerful Jedi EVER and the the Most powerful SIth EVER. I'll take 6 months under Yoda then 18 year under Vodo anyday. Dooku has Quantity and Quality.



A character is their own best judge of their abilities in comparison to other characters, I'd trust Mace who trained numerous times with Depa to be able to judge whom is better then him and who is not. Now if Mace was saying padawan Scouts pure bladework surpasses his own then it gets suspect but this is Depa the only other true master of Vapaad. Her style alone puts her above Ulic and doubled by the fact she's actually mastered other styles.




I know, I'm that damn good. I'm basing this on the fact that Ulic had only spent at most a few weeks 'undercover' with the Krath. And its irrelevant to even argue this, Kun that whole series of events didn't last at BEST longer then a month and a half, and were given NO indication what so ever that Kun spent the time practicing his dueling skills.



No, its simply the fact that Anakin is a FAR FAR FAR better duelist then Exar Kun and Ulic put together. Thats why. Anakin Skywalker is probably (save for Luke) the best pure duelist EVER in Star Wars history. Kun and Ulic don't come close:

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
And yet again you do as you usually do: provide no counter argument and simply make assertions assuming your opinion is correct. Here are the facts that you can't seem to grasp:
What am I countering? Your anti KOTOR/TOTJ bashing? Or your pitiful excuse for an argument.


If by beating him you mean he lett Dooku escape, you are correct. Exactly what does this prove? That Yoda is better than Dooku? Well, as you put it , Dee dee dee. But for Yoda to beat Kun AND DOoku, he has to be miles ahead of Dooku AND Kun, which is not the case, so go back to the drawing board.



And yet again, there's nothing that shows Yoda to be MILES ahead of Dooku, we just know that he's better.



Oh wow.. So Kun and Dooku can't adjust to Yoda's flippage, but YODA somehow WILL adjust to Kun's foreign saber and style. Wonderful argument, truly.




Why would it have to say it? It's common sense. Not only was Kun the darkest power in the galaxy, but he was miles ahead of anyone in the force. Furthermore, Ulic was the only one that came close to him in abilities, and that was before Kun reached his prime. But I love your "absence of proof" argument. Cute cop out.


IT doesn't have to say it.. That's like saying "show me a source that states Kun was more powerful than Yoda". Stupid shit like that. Guess what numbnuts, Yoda being the most devastating foe blah blah means what exactly? Oh right, that he was the biggest threat to a dark side user. Nice proving nothing jackass. Not to mention that's not really even true considering Mace is more effective against dark side users. Way to hide behind your quote.





A master swordsman with a unique style, unique saber, etc. It's not unsubstantiated jackass, there was nobody in that time that could challenge Kun or Ulic. But with your incredible logic, "omg nobody stood up to them that means the TOTJ era sucks and Kun sucks omgz!!" Yet again, it's Kun's fault that he was above and beyond everybody during his time.




Yes, everyone always claims they've made a case.. Why should you be any different.





What exactly do I have to prove? That even if Yoda is better than the other two, they are still in his league, and for him to somehow beat them both, Yoda has to be MILES ahead of them BOTH, which he isn't? Done.. Now it's time for you to prove your fanboyism with your ridiculous assumption that Yoda can somehow wtfpwn these 2 characters because he was, OMG, able to resist 3 jedi!!!





I'll do one better for you since you still aren't comprehending. A stalemate is where there is no victor. Got it? You want to get into semantics, your problem. He more than held his own WITHOUT the force, and that speaks volumes for him.





Ah, so because Kun trained himself, he's somehow weaker than Anakin because Anakin was trained by somebody. Now let me ask you something here Einstein. If Kun invented his own saber and his own style, why the HELL would he need someone to give him accurate training?





As always, denial is the fanboy's last resort.

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
'Sexy logic': I say it there fore it is true. Provide me some substantiated proof that puts Ulic Qel Droma in Dooku or Yoda's league. Then kiddo you'll have what we call: an argument.
Lets see, Styles logic: He's a PT Jedi, therefore he pwns a TOTJ Jedi




Yes, this is why Dooku was beaten by Anakin, who had 3 more years of training with Obiwan. Great argument!!




Right, someone's style alone puts them above another character. Pathetic argument brought on by fanboyism. Oh and again, someone's opinion is not fact if it's not backed up by anything.





Yet again, Kun's vacation planner. YOu have no idea what you're talking about but assumptions are cute.




Yet another retarded statement from a PT fanboy. Anakin is better than Kun because he does have more soures going his way. But far better than Kun? AND Ulic? Please pass what you're smoking. Yea, Kun and Ulic don't come close because the PT fanboy said so. And what the hell is a pure duelist? Learn to debate without bias, otherwise nobody is going to take your shit seriously.

LOL!

Not necessarily, AC. In fact, I believe that that has been taken out of context; I'll try my best to interpret.

The above statement came from the novelization . However, the same novelization depicts Palpatine collectively stomping Yoda's ass all over the Rotunda, and yet only a few chapters before, that same novelization depicts Mace emerging victorious over Palpatine in a legitimate duel.

That's a discrepency and it's easily explained.



In terms of absolute power and skill, Yoda is superior over Mace. However, Yoda hasn't exhibited any remote skills with Vaapad and shatterpoint detection, which -- according to the novelization -- combined to give Mace his legitimate victory over an opponent that Yoda couldn't defeat. No one is arguing that Mace's power exceeds Yoda's, but given the nature of his rather unique gifts, he is more effective against dark siders within the context of a duel.

I knew it was only a matter of time till the "OMG Kun's gotta unique style lololo!!!111!! he wins! crap comes out, as Advent has proved having unique style really doesn't mean shit especially if your a 900 year old Jedi Master




On top of that when has Kun ever encountered someone who as small, and moves like Yoda does and has the level of skill like Yoda does, considering the toughest challenge he'd ever faced in his life was Ulic Qel Droma who doesn't hold a candle to Yoda or Dooku. If you want a go the "Styles win battles" then Kun has NEVER seen something like Yoda's Ataru.




Glad you can recognize the faults in your argument all that is IRRELEVANT since this is a SABER ONLY topic. De De De.




And I love your "I don't have to prove the shit I say with actual sources" argument.




Its like I'm talking to a 2 year old:



I didn't say shit about Yoda, I'm asking you to PROVE this:




PROVE UP OR SHUT THE F*CK UP DIPSHIT




Yeah I know so lame me hiding behind sources while you hide behind...oh yeah your OPINION.



Asajii Ventress is a master-swordsman with a unique style and saber...is she god to? You simple saying "its not unsubstantiated" while at the same time...not substantiating it...makes you look like retard. You saying =/= truth. Prove what level of a master-swordsman Kun was as I've said you can be a master swordsman and STILL get murked in seconds by others who are simple batter. His style and saber are largely irrelevant.




I just postd that dip shit...Dictionary.com

You want to get into semantics, your problem. He more than held his own WITHOUT the force, and that speaks volumes for him.

No, he didn't hold his own its STATED he mounted NO OFFENSE. I find myself asking this question about you alot : R U RETARDED?



Now let me ask you THIS: If Kun was the originator of a style and only had 6 months to train with it how the HELL could he be an 'uber lightsaber master' Again thats like saying the original computer is better then a Macbook.

You go on and on about denial and fanboyism yet you can't prove that Kun was a better duelist then (and I'm being generous here) Tinn, Kolar or Koon you've yet to prove he's even on Yoda's level, and no stalemating Ulic doesn't put him there. His style and saber are rather irrelevant. So what are we left with? You in denial that you even have an argument. Unsubstantiated quotes and useless insults wont win you shit lil guy.



Anakin is an anomaly due to being you know "The Chosen One" at 23 he was one of the most powerful beings to ever exist...thats why you fail.

Right, someone's style alone puts them above another character. Pathetic argument brought on by fanboyism.









All from you^ Pathetic argument brought on by fanboyism.



It doesn't matter. No source says he trained with a saber, were given NO indication he trained with a saber therefore he didn't train with a saber.

Whats strange is Kun was called by the DSSB a master swordsman even as a Padawan:

"And excellent moment and a master-swordsman" - Exar Kun bio.

and yet Vodo put him on his ass flat out, Vodo who in the grand scheme of things is average at best. So Kun the master swordsman got put on his ass by the average Vodo...what in the hell do you think Yoda would do to him? Sure he got better but still he's no match for Yoda.


I've more then proved Anakins case, Kun would get butt f*cked ten ways to sunday by Anakin. The real question I have is: does anyone take YOU seriously?

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
I knew it was only a matter of time till the "OMG Kun's gotta unique style lololo!!!111!! he wins! crap comes out, as Advent has proved having unique style really doesn't mean shit especially if your a 900 year old Jedi Master
Good god you're a moron with legally retarded reading comprehension skills. I never said KUN's style will give him the victory, or kun WILL win...Wow.. I stated that if you're going to play double standards, then Yoda's acrobatics and fast maneuvers will play as large a part as Kun's foreign saber and style. Good god, learn how to read.





Yet again, diminishing a character by stating that the other character doesn't hold a candle to x, y,z . Try backing it up for once smartass, not just state your opinion. And one again, I never said styles win battles, learn how to read. How do you know Kun has never seen ataru? Want to back it up? See I know Yoda hasn't seen Kun's style because the style died with Kun.. There's my proof, where's yours? Oh right, nonexistent.



Now you know how I feel, except I would add "retarded" somewhere in there.



No, see your argument is this. "Here's the source and here's how I interpret it which makes it correct and makes it canon even though I didn't back that source up in any way, but take my word for it". Your debating skills are as impressive as monkey making noises and throwing shit at people.




Where is it stated that Asaj was a master swordsman? Where is it stated that she had a unique style and saber? Because as I recall, she had the same curved hilt as Dooku, and Bane a thousand years earlier. Yet another WONDERFUL argument.




I just postd that dip shit...Dictionary.com

You want to get into semantics, your problem. He more than held his own WITHOUT the force, and that speaks volumes for him.

No, he didn't hold his own its STATED he mounted NO OFFENSE. I find myself asking this question about you alot : R U RETARDED?
This coming from the man who doesn't understand what a stalemate is. Let's try again. A stalemate is something in which THERE IS NO CLEAR VICTOR. Sylvar couldn't do shit when she faced him, and Ulic running away means nothing. She couldn't defeat him, period, the end.




Lets see, Anakin became exponentially better in 3 years, and wtfpwned Dooku.. Let's see, Luke, after 2 years of training HIMSELF, or rather no real training, was able to wtfpwn Vader. There goes your argument.


I don't have to prove Kun is better, because I NEVER stated he was better than YOda with a saber. If you're going to manipulate my words into your shitty argument, make sure you do a better job. I HAVE however proved that Yoda would have to be miles ahead of both combatants to defeat them, and he's not.




ONe of the most powerful, with a saber. His force abilities? Average. Nomi Sunrider was also one of the most powerful beings to exist during her time with VERY Little training.. Does that make her an uber god? No.


SEeing as how I never stated anything of the sort, your argument fails yet again, and your reading comprehension skills make you look like a dumbass.




OMg make up your mind... Does Kun suck, or does Vodo? Or is Vodo now great? Or wait.. Vodo could actually be GOOD with a stick/saber, ever considered that? OF course not, he's not a PT Jedi!!!! And as far as I remember, his experience was all that put Kun on his ass. Once Kun used Jar'kai(as a padawan mind you), Vodo had no chance.



Your proof for Anakin's case: Advent made a case and I think Anakin is better..

Nice proof jackass. The thing is, I don't care if anyone takes me seriously, but after reading this horse shit, I doubt anyone takes you seriously at all.

LOL DS thinking he's actually doing something other then rambling on like a idiot...and I'm in denial




Except your wrong, again. The foreign style is irrelevant in the fight, however, being fast and moving in highly unpredictable ways does. Yoda is faster then Kun and his movements are very erratic, based on the fact that Kun seemingly spent all his time training with Vodo on Dantooine, and the only duels he's been in is with Vodo, Crado, Sylvar and Ulic...none of them move like Yoda, none of them have Yoda's skill or raw power, unless there was anther Yoda type character actively dueling (Vandar is the only possibility) no one in the entire era moves like him. Kun would be overwhelmed by the speed and skill which would lead to an easy victory over Kun.



Well lets see, you yourself don't seem to hold the opinion that Kun is even better then Yoda yet Ulic whom is as you admitted weaker then Kun and a worse duelist then Kun is somehow even near Yoda, its pretty damn obvious, Darth Sidious the strongest the Sith have ever produced couldn't beat Yoda in a saber duel what makes you seem to think Ulic could even come close?




I just did with a little thing called a: logical deduction.



Except its irrelevant.



She could compete with Anakin Skywlaker and Obi Wan Kenobi that alone makes her a master swordsman.



You must have missed Ventress curved Double bladed lightsaber

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Image:Asajj2_CW3D.jpg

She also uses it against Mace Windu in Clone Wars vol. 1




Yeah cause Ulic was running the whole time



O really? She couldn't beat him..you must have missed that little scene where she backed him up to a cliff and was about to dice him in half and stopped...




Again, your talking about u know the GRANDSON of the FORCE. Anther true lightsaber prodigy. You keep bringing up the two members of a bloodline that descends from the force itself, almost the entire damn Skywalker bloodline are anomaly's.




No you haven't...you simple stated it, I'll say it again: your opinion =/= fact. Yoda IS head and shoulders above Dooku (as he pissed on him when Dooku was being boosted by a dark side planet and had numerous trump cards against Yoda), Yoda is miles above Kun as you can't even substantiate his level of saber skills and how they compare to other "master swordsman" and your only other points are his style which are rendered irrelevant.




Your point being? The key word is "during her time" place her next to Revan and she falls short, place her next to Bane and she falls short, place her next to Mace, Dooku, Sidious, Anakin or Yoda and she falls short, place her next to Luke, Kyp or Jacen and she falls short.

However Anakin the son of the force, who when he reaches a certain state of mind his decisions become reality, who massacred one of the most power beings to exist (Dooku) in 8 seconds does = uber god at least in saber ability.




I copied and pasted what YOU said...those WERE your own words (I'm talking about the italics) coupled with the fact that you HAVE said things of the sort:






DING DING DING. We have a winner, he gets it.

Experience stopped the master swordsman and put him on his ass and had Vodo been using a real saber would have diced his hand off. Now imagine what Yoda who is already a better duelist then Kun, who is already far faster, who is unpredictable, who has 300 years of Experience over Vodo, who has competed with foes that would make Vodo cry would do to Kun? He'd massacre him. And so what if Kun got better, Yoda is still leagues upon leauges ahead of anyone Kun's faced and has leauges upon leauges of more experience.



Um no, I'd been saying Anakin was pretty much the best duelist ever since about January, Its irrelevant where the argument came from what is relevant is the fact that you can't refute it.

This is a waste of my time, you can't even form a coherent argument and when you do its based off defeated unsubstantiated points, in the word of Kurt Angle: You Suck.

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
LOL DS thinking he's actually doing something other then rambling on like a idiot...and I'm in denial
LOL styles actually thinks he's posted an argument, and not some incoherent garbage.. ::Rolls eyes::: It's nice of you to think we have an audience.





1. Do tell me how a foreign saber and style are AUTOMATICALLY IRRELEVANT..
2. Yoda is faster than Kun, but is Yoda faster than Kun and Dooku?
3. Easy victory? Lol you really are in denial.




And the reading comprehension extraordinaire continues his ridiculous crap. Please, since you're so adept at reading comprehension(sarcasm in case it went straight over your head), tell me where I regarded Ulic as even near Yoda..Please, go ahead. No really, go ahead.





Judging by the mess you threw into this text box, I highly doubt you know what logical deduction is.




That alone makes her a master swordsman? And tell me, was this before or after Anakin became exponentially powerful? Was Obiwan a master swordsman? I fail to see how being able to hold their own against a master, makes you a master as well. But hey, that's just me.




LEts see. Did their sabers clash more than a few times? Could she get in a killing blow? It would take Ulic without the force for her even to come close to him in saber combat. Oh no, he was running, that makes him weak!($*($*!



1. Yoda is better than Dooku, that has been established. What hasn't been established is Yoda being miles ahead of Dooku.
2. See #1, since there's nothing suggesting Yoda is MILES ahead of Kun, or even that far ahead of him, and this is just saber skills. Your opinion=/=fact, and don't tell me you logically deduced this, because it's illogical fanboyism without proof.



8 seconds? Where did you come up with this #?





please, making up shit as a lack of your reading comprehension abilities doesn't mean I said anything.



OMg, yoda has 300 years more experience than Yoda!! I guess Yoda technically should have defeated Sidious since you always seem to imply that age=skill and power. Yoda would not massacre Kun, even if your fanboyism allows you to believe it. Leagues and leagues above anyone, good lord.. Maybe you should stay out of this one and let LS or Advent argue.




Except Yoda is better than him, Mace is better than him, and Sidious is better than him, so that much pretty much refutes, or rather destroys your argument.


Boohoo. This coming from someone whos argument is "He's a 900 year old pt jedi, therefore he's miles and miles ahead of the second most powerful DLOTS ever". Great one dumbass. Since we're onto wrestling sayings, in the words of the rock, it doesn't matter what your opinion is jabroni. As usual, quit while youre behind dumbass.

STFU n00b !!!!11111

Again, no argument just anther mess of craptastic insults and half thought out text.



Been established and I'm getting tired of repeating myself, by the neophyte Kyle Katarn taking on Barxiss and Maw who both had either unique or rare styles, yet he beat them. Once again, if he can do it a Jedi Master in the likes of Yoda can as well.




Kun can't keep up with him and Dooku on a world where his powers are at his apex is still can't keep up with him and is drenched in sweat while even attempting to do so.



Over kun, in sabers yes it is an easy victory.





You didn't, and I never claimed you did...

And I lack the comprehension skills:

I said:

Ulic Qel Droma who doesn't hold a candle to Yoda or Dooku.

You said:

Yet again, diminishing a character by stating that the other character doesn't hold a candle to x, y,z . Try backing it up for once smartass, not just state your opinion.

I said:

Well lets see, you yourself don't seem to hold the opinion that Kun is even better then Yoda yet Ulic whom is as you admitted weaker then Kun and a worse duelist then Kun is somehow even near Yoda, its pretty damn obvious, Darth Sidious the strongest the Sith have ever produced couldn't beat Yoda in a saber duel what makes you seem to think Ulic could even come close?

What my response should have been is (Using DS logic) its obviously apparent Ulic doesn't hold a candle to Yoda cause Yoda's track record speaks for itself.




I could call you out on the fallacy there but its pointless as you can't even coherently debate let alone understand logic. But as usual instead of actually coming up with a counter response you will up space with an insult.




No, but that along with her other dueling feats: beating Kit Fisto who was noted as one of the finest duelists in the order and a complete master of Shii Cho, she's owned Glaive a huge muscular being, she's beaten numerous other Jedi Knights, she managed to scar Anakin 6 months prior to his obliteration of Count Dooku in ROTS, and even Darth Sidious noted her skills with a lightsaber:

"The child's skill with a lightsaber is most impressive . You have found a promising disciple, my apprentice. She shall serve us well."




So he's good at running a defense, Yoda pushed Sidious back and couldn't land a killing blow, Anakin the clear superior to Obi Wan couldn't land a killing blow at any point. Your point? I'm sorry taught guy but running away and and parrying =/= speak super highly for Ulic as you want it to, the feat my be on some level impressive but does that rank him next to Dooku? No, so why even mention it?




Till you refute this:

No, I've established that Yoda is the clear better over a Dooku whose powers are at their apex on a world steeped with the dark side, now compare the performance Dooku put out (the one where he's sweating like a mad man, half dehydrated, being pushed back and needing to throw people at Yoda to distract him and use missiles to retreat) on the before said world.

To that of a Dooku who DOESN'T have the before mentioned advantages (I'm assuming this takes place on a force neutral flat surface) the logical conclusion...He gets shitted on, Yoda IS Dooku's superior BY FAR.

Your just making baseless claims, again. Because definitively beating someone who has their power being amped to its apex and has numerous ploys does mean your miles ahead of that person since he(Dooku) can't in this situation reenact his only time where he was even close to Yoda in the dueling department and was still clearly beaten, while Yoda didn't even seemingly break a sweat.



Again your making baseless claims and this shit is getting old, fast. I tire of these circle arguments (you can't advance anything because you don't even have an argument thats valid to begin with) so I'm gonna end this shit now:

Exar Kun, the Masterswords Man was put on his ass by Vodo and would have cut off Exar Kuns hand had he been using a real saber, whose only advantage over him as the narration described was "experience". He then gets better enough to beat the established 'average' duelist.

I honestly can't see how you come to the idiotic conclusion that *that * can compete with Yoda:

Speed:

Yoda is noted for his enhanced speed due to the force to the point that he can leave and blurred after image of his movements due to how fast he is (Clone Wars vol.5 Best of Blades, Jedi: Yoda)

Kun is never noted for his speed in the comics and the most that was ever show by the comics was speed lines and given the fact that he couldn't even out run the Massasi Warriors chasing him, I doubt his speed is anything special.

Also Yoda movements are acrobatic and unpredictable to the point that even masters of the lightsaber forms I - IV (Dooku) can barley keep up and his speed was enough to overwhelm and disarm the most powerful Sith Lord to ever lived, the same Sith Lord who could outline Mauls body with his saber before he could even blink (Journal of Darth Maul )

He moved faster then 3 Jedi Masters attacking him at once, one of them included Depa Billup a master of Vaapad and several other forms.

He's clearly far faster then Exar Kun

Mark one for Yoda.

Strength:

Yoda also enhances his Physical power with the force as can be seen in Clone Wars Adventures vol. 3 when he lifts a huge gun in an even bigger book on his back and moves with it a comparison in size can be seen here:

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Image:A_Stranger_in_Town.JPG

Aside from this to tenetically lift two C-9979 landing craft which each weigh individually: 1800 metric tons or 3,600,000 lbs.

While Kun on the other hand, his heights degree of power shown in the comics is lifting a being up with one hand and breaking a force powered stick. Um lets see how in the hell does that compare to Yoda?

Thats two for Yoda.

Skill:

Yoda's skill lies in his complete and utter mastery of Ataru to the highest degree to the point that people who know the form inside out (Dooku) can't even compete with Yoda's version.

His skill has lead him to be called the one true master of lightsaber dueling in the Jedi Order, he skill allowed him to disarm Sidious,the greatest and most powerful Sith Lord ever, who moved so fast he was called a 'shadow ' in the ROTS novelization, whom killed Kit Fisto, Agen Kolar and Sasee Tinn in about 3 seconds all of whom are noted as some of the finest duelist in the Jedi Order.

He was labeled as Mace Windu's superior and was able to toy with Dooku who was already established as:

"One of the greatest Jedi Masters in the orders 25k year history, and an even greater Sith Lord"

and

who was called a "consummate duelist " who was in "superb physical condition " for being 80. A man who completely mastered Makashi and forms I - IV and beat Sora Bluq who is described as:


"...one of the greatest lightsaber instructors the Jedi order had ever known, perfecting the various forms of combat techniques, both classical and experimental. He even helped Mace Windu perfect the art of vaapad, the seventh form of lightsaber combat so intense and dangerous, that to practice it was to tread perilously close to the dark side."

AND Tholme at the same time, someone who could beat Grevious without going all out (CW Grevious that is) the same Grevious who WTFpwned 5 Jedi at the same time (a party including three Jedi Masters and two Knights) who can compete with the likes of Mace Windu and Yoda.

He was also described by the ROTS novelization as:

"The most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness has ever known"

Where as Kun whom was called a Masterswrodsman as a padawan an level of saber mastery that you can't and haven't substantiated, he also has an the double bladed saber and a unique style to go along with that which is rendered largely irrelevant to someone on the level of Yoda, as the neophyte Kyle Katarn could overcome rare and unique styles. He's stalemated Ulic, beat Vodo, Crado and Sylvar, all of whom are not in Yoda's league and nothing like Yoda what so ever, however any of Yoda's upper tier opponents would be a match and likely beat Kun in saber dueling, Sidious in every aspect.

Three for Yoda.

cont...

experience:

Yoda has about 870 year of lifetime experience on Exar Kun, he has delved farther then any Jedi ever into the secrets of the Great Holocron, he has far more combat experience then Exar (Based on his foes and the fact that he lead numerous battles in the Clone Wars and organized the whole campaign, unlike Kun who actively participated in one battle in the GSW)

Vodo's 600 years of experience and relative average dueling skills were enough to overcome Exar Kun, Yoda has infinitely better skills and 300 more years of experience on Vodo.

It looks like a clean sweep.

Exar Kun dueling wise can't compete with Yoda in any field, he gets killed with relative ease, relatively quickly.

QED.




I counted it from the point where Dooku says "You have hate, fear but you don't use them." as that point concedes with the novels description of Anakin using the dark side and Anakin truly getting serious with Dooku. But your right I was a little fast its more like 12 seconds but the point is still very well established.



Expect you did say it my oh so unintelligent friend




Starwman, and Yoda *did* beat Sidious, he disarmed him and pushed back his best force attack, he however *lost* the battle due to the high ground, him being about 3 feet shorter then Palpatine and having smaller hands.




In dueling? No, the others are debatable and only Mace would probably beat Anakin more often then not due to his unique abilities, and you didn't destroy shit as I've always said "pretty much" "one of" "arguably" "beat almost anyone".

Hooked on Phonics. Get it.

You and I will be debating this when I get back. In ze words of Scar: "be prepared!" Lol.

Well it depends on what you wanna go by (cause I *know* your gonna bust out the novel) the sript and the movie or the book, the book paints a different fight then what actually happened in the movie (the highest form of canon) where Sidious kicked the living shit out of Yoda all around the rotunda, in the movie its quite even and in the script Yoda flat out wins the saber duel. I'm using script and movie.

I'm back.



Consider this a bit of a blind spot in your clairvoyance; I don't usually reference the novelization when it comes to the details of the fight itself. The most I reference is Yoda's thoughts or statements made by the omniscient narrator that apply.



The novelization contradicts the movie by showing Sidious kicking Yoda's ass all around the Rotunda, and yet the script does the exact same thing for Yoda, who annihilates Sidious throughout the entire fight.



Have you read the entire script as far as the duel itself is concerned? Yoda doesn't just 'flat out win' the saber duel. He completely spanks Palpatine the entire time. Perfect example: after Yoda disarms Sidious, Sidious attacks Yoda with lightning. Yoda launches that back in Sidious's face and the script says "it appears as though the Dark Lord is doomed".

And then, for no damn reason, Yoda jumps away to another pod, giving Sidious a chance to fight back.

...Yeah right.

The script and the novelization are both outliers; each show one combatant completely dominating the other.

Yeah I have:

YODA is deflecting the Sith Lord's lightning bolts.

The energy bolts begin to arc back on the Emperor. It looks as if the Dark Lord is doomed.

I always interpreted that as Yoda trying to avoid the inevitable backlash from the the force lighting being pushed back at Palpatine (which as it turns out was the very thing that cost him the duel)




So then what do we go by, for explaining the little gap in the duel and how Sidious doesn't have his saber?

Precisely.

Which is why the script's account of the fight is as flawed as the novelization's is. Since the script and the novelization are considered second only to the movies, we must assume that they cancel each other out when they both detail contradictory actions.



But that would require some sort of basis. Furthermore, if Yoda had a pre-existing knowledge of the 'backlash', I doubt he would have allowed it to happen at the very end of the fight. He always could have leaped away and tried some sort of other avenue.



That's the point: we can't.

Finally, suppose Yoda did disarm Sidious. Put it into perspective: Sidious would be trapped on the Chancellor's podium with a creature who is small, blindingly fast and agile, and who desires nothing more than his absolute demise. Also take into account that Yoda still has his lightsaber - which he can use to deflect lightning - as well as his own natural proficiency with defending and dissipating Force energy. And, lastly, Sidious is unarmed.

...How the hell would he have managed to evade Yoda under such disadvantageous circumstances? Logic concludes that he wouldn't, unless:

a.) Yoda allows Sidious to escape .
b.) Yoda is absolutely ****ing stupid .
c.) Politician Sidious is a smarter fighter by miles and miles than warrior Grandmaster Yoda .
d.) Sidious is more powerful than Yoda in the Force .
e.) Sidious somehow neutralized Yoda long enough to evade him and put considerable distance between themselves.
f.) Sidious still has lightsaber.

It has to be 'e' or 'f'.

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
Again, no argument just anther mess of craptastic insults and half thought out text.
Right, I say one thing to you, you repeat it back to me. Yet another cute game of "I know you are but what am I" with my buddy styles. Dare I remind you what happened last time you and I were in a debate?




Am I to assume you still have reading comphrension issues?





Ah, yet simple common sense fails Styles again. This is a 2 on 1 big boy.



Opinions don't matter here.






Wow... Just... WOW... So after all of that you still surmised that I thought Ulic was near Yoda? I can't tell what's dumber, this or you telling me I was claiming Kun would beat Yoda because of a unique saber and style(I didn't in case that point flew way over your head).





Judging by your arguments and lack of reading comprehension abilities, it's pretty clear you're in no position to point out logical fallacies, seeing as how after reading you need to worry about forming a cogent argument. Do me a favor and stop wasting my time, your debating skills warrant nothing but incessant laughter.



Yes, running away and parrying.. What is your point? OH right, a stalemate is a stalemate. I still see this point is way over your head. But you're right. Ulic must be so weak because he's running away from a force user.




Make up your mind Styles, you haven't established Yoda is better than Dooku, do you know why? Because WE ALL KNOW THIS dumbass. You're trying to establish that Yoda is somehow miles and miles ahead of DOoku, and miles and miles ahead of Kun, and you haven't done either. So next time before wasting Rex's bandwidth, really think about what it is you're trying to "establish", so you don't confuse yourself.


Wtf does this even mean, by far? You are going to have to back up your ridiculous claim as to "How far" Yoda is ahead of Dooku.


And yet again, common sense eludes you. In no way, shape, or form, have you proven that Yoda is miles and miles ahead of Dooku and KUN. What you have stated is the obvious, in which Yoda is a better duelist than Kun or Dooku.


Compete? Yes.. Win? No. And I honestly cannot see where you come up with the idiotic fanboy conclusion that Yoda is miles ahead of Kun..


OMg force speed!! So did Sidious.. So did Obiwan.. So did Maul. Congratulations, you've established that Yoda has the ability to use force speed in a saber fight. And now you're telling me Kun, who was more powerful than pretty much everybody in the star wars universe save for a few, CANT use force speed? Great going Molly.


Correction. Kun's speed wasn't STATED in the comics. But by your idiotic fanboyism, if it wasn't stated, it MUST not exist!


Except for the fact that force strength can be augmented by any force user. Yoda has shown more with it, but please tell me how strength is going to help him in this saber fight?



Hey dipshit, I used to use the "old script" as part of my argument. Seeing as how it was never incorporated into the movies, please let me know where Yoda disarm Sidious.



Right, because he's YOda, suddenly he's invincible. Wow, you've convinced me that Yoda is superior to the other two by playing feat wars. And yet again, nothing you said makes a case for Yoda being MILES ahead of either DOoku, or Kun.

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
B]experience:

Yoda has about 870 year of lifetime experience on Exar Kun, he has delved farther then any Jedi ever into the secrets of the Great Holocron, he has far more combat experience then Exar (Based on his foes and the fact that he lead numerous battles in the Clone Wars and organized the whole campaign, unlike Kun who actively participated in one battle in the GSW)

Vodo's 600 years of experience and relative average dueling skills were enough to overcome Exar Kun, Yoda has infinitely better skills and 300 more years of experience on Vodo.

It looks like a clean sweep.
Except it doesn't. Experience meant very little when Yoda couldn't defeat a 60 year Sidious. So there goes your argument.


You have yet to prove it. Feat wars doesn't quantify how much more powerful Yoda is.







REally? Since I said it, please show me where. Since you have constantly shown me your lack of debating and reading comprehension skills, I'll call bullshit and ask you to show me where I said everything you're making up.





No.... Try again.


Dear lord, I hope this isn't your best. If it is I would tell you to find another hobby.

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
No, I've established that Yoda is the clear better over a Dooku whose powers are at their apex on a world steeped with the dark side, now compare the performance Dooku put out (the one where he's sweating like a mad man, half dehydrated, being pushed back and needing to throw people at Yoda to distract him and use missiles to retreat) on the before said world.
It is already a well known fact that Yoda is superior to Dooku in Light Saber dueling. But let's move on to your next part:

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
To that of a Dooku who DOESN'T have the before mentioned advantages (I'm assuming this takes place on a force neutral flat surface) the logical conclusion...He gets shitted on, Yoda IS Dooku's superior BY FAR.
You conclude that Yoda will shit on Dooku in a fight in a fair region, right?

Now let us take a look at the evidence from the highest form of Canon: SW - AOTC (Dooku vs Yoda in the battle of Geonosis)

In this fight, we see Dooku putting up a good fight against Yoda in a Light Saber duel because he was able to counter every Saber strike from Yoda before he decided to escape. Now of-course since Yoda was the better fighter, Dooku was left with no choice but to escape. Yet we never see Yoda actually shitting on Dooku in Geonosis, right?

So your conclusion is wrong and SW Databank also makes your conclusion wrong with these lines:

A) From Dooku's Profile: "It came down to a contest of lightsabers. In a blurring tangle of speed and light, the two masters of the Force dueled."

&

B) From Yoda's Profile: "The contest came down to a duel of lightsabers. In a climactic battle, the two master combatants displayed amazing speed and agility."

And your assumption that a region strong with Dark Side of the Force will actually boost a Sith Lord's Light Saber skills is also wrong. The correct assumption is that a region strong in the Dark Dide of the Force will actually boost a Sith Lord's energies, which will enhance the Sith Lord's power and this will give the Sith Lord the ability to fight for a longer period but it will not automatically boost the "Light Saber skills" of that Sith Lord.

Now let's move on to Exar Kun & Dooku vs Yoda case:

Since it is already established that Dooku alone has shown the ability to put up a reasonable fight with Yoda in a Saber duel, this will provide enough opportunity to Exar Kun to exploit the situation and turn the tide and it will be "easy" for him to do so because he is also a "master swordsman" and also uses a double-bladed Light Saber in combat (which means that he has higher chances for hitting his opponent and this is backed by the statement in the SW Databank: "He brandished a Sith lightsaber with twin blades that increased the potent weapon's lethality.".

Now you will say that being a master swordsman is not a big deal but again this comment will lack any sense because if Kun will not be a master swordsman, it will become "difficult" for Kun to take advantage of Yoda's distraction. But since he is a master swordsman, it will become "easy" for him to take advantage of Yoda's distraction and the duo (of Kun and Dooku) will be able to disarm the 900 year old Grand Jedi Master. Though you can say that the fight will not be easy.

I guess since he stalemated Sidious, that Sidious is miles and miles ahead of Kun and DOoku as well? Har har

I wouldn't call it easy for Kun to hit Yoda or gain an advantage. Granted it could be easy for Kun to find an advantage but being able to exploit will be difficult with Yoda because he is so dam agile and fast.

Originally posted by Darth Hord
I wouldn't call it easy for Kun to hit Yoda or gain an advantage. Granted it could be easy for Kun to find an advantage but being able to exploit will be difficult with Yoda because he is so dam agile and fast.
You forgot to take the case of "DUO" of Dooku and Exar kun in to consideration here.

Since both of these men in a 1 vs 1 scenario can put up a resonable fight against Yoda, their combined talents will be more then enough for Yoda to handle because of the following reasons:

A) Two skilled swordsmen will be facing Yoda from different angles.
B) This will be enough to cause distraction for Yoda or Yoda will be at greater risk because he will have to concentrate on the moves of both of his skilled enemies.
C) When Yoda will go against one Sith Lord, the other Sith Lord will also go against him.
D) Exar Kun is armed with a double-bladed Light Saber, which increases his chances of hitting Yoda.

Thus the two Sith Lords will be able to disarm Yoda because as a team they will have more chances of exploiting the moves of Yoda. and will have higher chances of hitting Yoda.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
You forgot to take the case of "DUO" of Dooku and Exar kun in to consideration here.

Since both of these men in a 1 vs 1 scenario can put up a resonable fight against Yoda, their combined talents will be more then enough for Yoda to handle because of following reasons:

A) Two skilled swordsmen will be facing Yoda from different angles.
B) This will be enough to cause distraction for Yoda because he wll have to concentrate on the moves of both of them.
C) When Yoda will go against one Sith Lord, the other Sith Lord will also go against him.
D) Exar Kun is armed with a double-bladed Light Saber, which boosts his chances of hitting Yoda.

Thus
E)Two highly skilled swordsmen will be able to disarm Yoda.

i understand that but and I do personally think the duo will win but I do think yoda could avoid many situations that could lead to his death before he dies, like say if Kun is temporarily out of the duel then while Dooku and Yoda duel Kun comes from behind to strike Yoda, yoda could then just flip to one side and put a good enough distance for the duel to be back at square one so to speak.

Originally posted by Darth Hord
i understand that but and I do personally think the duo will win but I do think yoda could avoid many situations that could lead to his death before he dies, like say if Kun is temporarily out of the duel then while Dooku and Yoda duel Kun comes from behind to strike Yoda, yoda could then just flip to one side a good enough distance for the duel to be back at square one so to speak.
The problem is that Yoda cannot knock either of them out in a matter of seconds.

Yep but you have to agree that Yoda could take one out of action for a short time.(like what maul and dooku did and yoda is better than both) but he will eventually get killed but I just don't think it would be as easy as you seem to think it will be for Kun to exploit a weakness/or gain a major advantage.

On the matter of Ulic and Kun, didn't they stalemate in a saber duel?

Yeah neither one had an advantage when Ragnos stopped the duel.

Originally posted by Darth Hord
Yep but you have to agree that Yoda could take one out of action for a short time.(like what maul and dooku did and yoda is better than both) but he will eventually get killed but I just don't think it would be as easy as you seem to think it will be for Kun to exploit a weakness/or gain a major advantage.
This is not as easy as it sounds.

In the case of Maul: He was fighting against Qui-Gon-Jinn and Padawan Kenobi. Now Maul was a talented and a skilled warrior, so he alone put up a good fight against both of them. But even in this fight, Maul gained advantage when the Jedi Master got separated from his apprentice and not when they were both engaging him simultaneously.

And you must not forget that we are talking about two Sith Lords who are far more skilled, experienced and powerful then Qui-Gon Jinn and Padawan Kenobi.

Now in the case of Dooku: He fought against Jed Knight Kenobi and Padawan Anakin. But he actually knocked one out with the Force Lightning and then beat the other one. He did not single handedly beat both of them simultaneously.

Conclusion:

So once again, when Exar Kun and Count Dooku will be facing Yoda simultaneously, it will be nearly impossible for Yoda to knock any one of them out in such a scenario.

It it possible for Yoda who is more powerful than Dooku and Maul to cause separation or temporarily knock one out of the duel bring either by a force push,lightsaber or whatever. You are not giving enough credit to Yoda. And in this duel which would last a while it is within Yoda's power to even kill one of them but he will die by the second because he would waste alot of energy in a fight against two highly skilled and deadly masters. Oh and btw the Dooku scenario I was referring to was the one in ROTS not AOTC.This duel will come down 1.How long Yoda move like a hyperass monkey 2. If Yoda could cause a single duel with one of them than how much time he will have before the other one to rejoin.

I believe no one can use force in this fight.

Yeah I pissed on any form reasoning you seemed to have, and you stepped aside while someone better then you, Nai, and I debated because well, you suck, and I'm still waiting for Nai's reply.




No shit, I'd like you to point me to where the I make the argument of: Yoda has to be miles and miles ahead of them to beat them, which isn'the case (You assuming I'm agreeing to your flawed logic is YOUR fault) I'd like to point you to Grevious vs 5 Jedi including 4 masters Shaak Ti, Ki Di Mundi, K'Kruhk and Tarr Seirr and Aylaa Secura.
Yet he beats them all, based of what: His unpredictable movements and his speed (sound familiar) now I doubt Grevious was miles and miles ahead of all them combined, especially at that time.

Anther that comes to mind is Ventress vs Sora Bluq, Mira, K'Kruhk, Rhad Tarn and Sian Jeisel, Sora Bluq alone is a match for her yet she still manages beat them and only the intervention of Mace Windu saves them.

Or when Qu Rhan takes Jerecs seven dark Jedi, and although he lost managed to dice Maw in half.

Again, when Jaden Korr who while strong faced of against Rosh Penin and the Kothos twins who were regarded as masters of the darks side and yet he wins.

You don't have to be miles and miles ahead of two foes to win. And I never suggested that he'd WTFPwn them both that again was YOU putting words in my mouth. I only said he'd win.



Something you can't fail to grasp




You really are stupid aren't you? You asked me to BACK MY SHIT UP, and I unlike you DID just that, and in that case it required the assumption that Ulic is even on Yoda's level.



Again, did I say that? I said it doesn't make Ulic some kind of god that your attributing the feat to.




I don't have to simple common sense is enough for that: Yoda beats Dooku in about a minute or so in AOTC's while HOLDING back, he then soundly defeats Dooku without seemingly breaking as sweat while Dooku is drenched in sweat, this is while Dooku is at his apex. And yet you seriously come to the conclusion that Yoda isn't miles ahead of him? Going all out on equal ground Yoda would crush Dooku. But it doesn't matter as the FACT is Yoda is soundly better then Dooku and Yoda is soundly better then Exar Kun and thats ALL it takes to win.




I don't even have too, because thats not what decides who wins the duel Yoda on his own is better then either of them, and I'd surmise having 900 years of experience and shit load of combat experience he'd do a tactic similar to what Dooku did in the opening stages of the duel with Anakin and Obi Wan:

Where as all Dooku need do was to step from one side to anther - and occasionally flip over a head here and there--so that he could fight them in turn rather than both at the same time.

Divide and conquer a simple tactic, that would work very effectively in this case because Exar Kun and Dooku don't know shit about each other and can't fight as a team like Obi Wan and ANakin did in the latter stages of the duel, other then that Exar Kun wields a completely forgien weapon and a foreign style. to Dooku so he couldn't analyze the advantages and disadvantages of a combo attack.

They were not prepared to fight against a single force user certainly not one of Dooku's power he on the other hand had always fought alone. It was laughably easy to keep the Jedi tripping and stumbling and getting in each others way.

Thats what I see happening to Kun and Dooku, Dooku as the narration stated ALWAYS fought alone and thus probably knows zlich about a team battle, and Kun has apparently never been in a team battle in his life. Combine that with the fact that both of them have HUGE ass ego's I HIGHLY doubt they could put that aside and work together as a team, and Yoda is Dooku's personal enemy who gets very under his skin, how would he feel about this relative stranger barging him aside to try and kill his former Master and arch nemesis? They'd be more likely to fight each other rather then Yoda.

Yoda doesn't have to be miles and miles ahead of them both to win, he just has to use basic tactics to beat separate and defeat them individually.




No, I'm basing his speed of the fact that he couldn't even out run the Massasi.

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
Yeah I pissed on any form reasoning you seemed to have, and you stepped aside while someone better then you, Nai, and I debated because well, you suck, and I'm still waiting for Nai's reply.
Weird, I remember you conceding the argument in some childish form, because you couldn't keep up your own bullshit. But as usual, denial is the last resort to conceding defeat.






That and he was a robot that could automatically move at insane speeds. I guess your argument fails when he was wtfpwned by Obiwan. And seeing as how you possess very little common sense, the fact remains that Yoda has to be well ahead of both characters, if he is to somehow defeat two incredibly powerful sith lords. Yet another concept that eludes you.



You're seriously using this gameplay nonsense? Tell me Styles, how does he win, since you seem to know? And if it's not by lightsaber, then what the hell is the purpose of even posting this nonsense seeing as how it's irrelevant to a lightsaber duel.


Except there would have to be a considerable skill discrepancy between Yoda and the other two, for Yoda to defeat them both, so you're wrong...Again..




Wow, that must mean I can grasp it, if I can't fail. Wonderful.





You haven't backed up anything dumbass, you've listed feat wars and stated the obvious, of which involves Yoda being better than them both. Congratulations captain obvious. Yet since you claim you HAVE backed up your nonsense(you haven't, it's ok), explain to me how your case would have required the assumption that Ulic is on Yoda's level. I'm dying to know!




I didn't say nor assume that it makes Ulic some kind of god, you did fanboy.





Yoda didn't beat Dooku in AOTC, but you must have seen a completely different fight than everyone else. Yoda never went on the offensive against Dooku, because Yoda still thought he could turn Dooku back. Wonderful logic yet again.





Yet again, his experience meant shit against Sidious, so experience isn't a determining factor alone.


Wonderful interpretation of the fight, except...No..

I do recall Yoda being overconfident in his fight with Sidious, so if you're going to use that nonsense, I'll use overconfidence as Yoda's failing.






Right, the thousands of massassi encircling him. Maybe Kun can simply use a cheat code like no clip and walk through trees and walls! Dumbass.

Yoda loses here, but puts up a very good fight, mainly because the duo don't know each other and don't do well in a team, there teamwork is bad.

Force isn't allowed, its a ligtsaber match only, if he gets in trouble he is not allowed to use, Push, or some other Force technique, or even use Force Jump.

Thirdly, Yoda style is very consummative, he gets tired fast, so he needs a quick victory, the longer the duel, more tired he gets and xxXAcStylesXxx, on Geonosis it was Yoda who was more tired, despite the fact, that Dooku fought Anakin and Kenobi. And Dooku personal enemy is, Anakin not Yoda.

And Dooku isn't leagues above Yoda, he can put up a good fight to him on his own.


This is from Star Wars insider, issue 62.

With form 2, Dooku holds his own, even against Master Yoda.

Originally posted by Count Makashi
And Dooku isn't leagues above YodaDooku isn't even above Yoda.

You know what i meant, Dooku isn't leagues below Yoda, Below.

Originally posted by Darth Hord
It it possible for Yoda who is more powerful than Dooku and Maul to cause separation or temporarily knock one out of the duel bring either by a force push,lightsaber or whatever.
This is more dependent on the conditions in which this fight is taking place. If the conditions favor Yoda, then he might be able to gain an advantage but that will still be a rare possibility.

However the main point is that though Yoda is indeed strongest in this fight, his opponents are also stronger and more experienced then Gu-Gon Jinn and Obi-Wan Kenobi.

Still did not get the picture?

Again take the case of Maul vs Duo of Gui-Gon Jinn and Kenobi:

- Now Maul was strongest in that fight. He had the capability to take on both of those Jedi simultaneously.
- But he still had to separate the Jedi Master from his apprentice to gain any advantage, which was made possible due to those shields in that building. Thus the conditons in that fight helped Maul.

Similar would be the case of Yoda in his fight against the Duo of Exar Kun & Dooku.

Originally posted by Darth Hord
You are not giving enough credit to Yoda. And in this duel which would last a while it is within Yoda's power to even kill one of them but he will die by the second because he would waste alot of energy in a fight
The point is that Yoda is still at a disadvantage in this fight. He may kill one of his opponents, though I doubt it but he will still loose. The reason is that the Sith Lords prefer to fight to live and not die. Exar Kun and Dooku will most likely fight to stay alive for their own good.

Originally posted by Darth Hord
against two highly skilled and deadly masters. Oh and btw the Dooku scenario I was referring to was the one in ROTS not AOTC.This duel will come down 1.How long Yoda move like a hyperass monkey 2. If Yoda could cause a single duel with one of them than how much time he will have before the other one to rejoin.
The fight that you see in ROTS was created to develop a story. Dooku despite being smart, was shown to be too trusting in that fight and he foolishly tried to convince Anakin to fight at his best, instead of doing the opposite and that is using the Dun Moch to erode Anakin's will.

And do not forget that Yoda cannot toss Dooku around like a ragdoll with the Force. And neither he can do that to Exar Kun.

Exactly there was no point in arguing with someone who...didn't have an argument, Nai came in who is better then you AND had an argument, and I debated with him.




A robot...you must have missed that little scene in ROTS that little scene in ROTS where Obi Wan opens his armour and guess whats in there...organs...and not thats not where my argument fails because Obi Wan happened to be possibly the greatest master of Soresu ever. But as you say the point eludes you, Grievous by himself is not better then 4 Jedi masters and a knight like Aylaa but his unpredictable movements, speed and erratic strength frequencies of his slashes allowed him to be, much like Yoda.




I love how you ignored the Ventress and Qu Rahn example then just claim I'm wrong.



Your are beyond help, I'll spell it out for you: In the case of ULIC vs Yoda i assumed since asked me to back up how Ulic doesn't hold a candle to Yoda that you held Ulic to the same standard.




Lame, lame, lame:
He more than held his own WITHOUT the force, and that speaks volumes for him.



I could have sworn it was Dooku who ran away...hmm maybe its just me, I could have sworn that Yoda was flipping around and coming down on and attacking Dooku from different angles...yeah I thinks just me...




Except Sidious happens to be THE MOST POWERFUL SITH EVER, where as Exar Kun is...not.





What an argument! OMG in the face of such logic as ..."No"... how can I dare go on!



Nonsense? Its a basic tactic, something even Dooku did. Yoda was overconfident you must have missed this:

With revernce, with gratitude, without fear, and without anger, Yoda went forth to war. pg 386 ROTS novel.

And how the hell will "overconfidence" stop him from executing a basic tactic? Dooku was a helluva lot more arrogant/overconfident in the Anakin/OB1 yet he could still do it, the only difference is it wouldn't be an act, Dooku and Kun would likely stumble over each other, not know how to compliment each others abilities and they both have sever ego issues.




Wrong scene dip shit, when Kun first arrives on Yavin he is chased down by a few Massasi warriors fails to get away and is shot with a disks, that he again couldn't out run. Dumbass.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
The fight that you see in ROTS was created to develop a story. Dooku despite being smart, was shown to be too trusting in that fight and he foolishly tried to convince Anakin to fight at his best, instead of doing the opposite and that is using the Dun Moch to erode Anakin's will.

It does not matter why the fight was developed because it is canon fight. A very obvious difference between the two is as you pointed at that once Obiwan was out of the scene, he trying to help his master convert him the darkside. But here if Yoda a chance for a 1v1. fight he would not try and talk them to fight there best. Plus the fact that Kun is an arrogant fool he might not work well with Dooku which would hurt his chances of living.



I know that very well i do think it is possible for Yoda to slay one of them in the leg or something that while not a crippling wound it would cause them to be m.i.a. for a short which Yoda could use for his advantage. But Yoda will go down because he will tire out. I'd say there is about a 10% chance of him winning.

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
Exactly there was no point in arguing with someone who...didn't have an argument, Nai came in who is better then you AND had an argument, and I debated with him.
No, your points were thoroughly defeated, and you started bitching. But not all of us live in reality right Styles?





Um... Right. Grievous defeated 4 jedi, while Obiwan wtfpwned him. Thanks for proving....Nothing?





No, I ignored your example because I know nothing about either character Molly.




Oh my god, are you that daft? I NEVER held ULIC to Yoda's standards, do you know why? Because I even made the claim that Yoda would defeat Kun in saber combat. Then you go on your little rampage that involves your pathetic reading comprehension skills, talking about how somehow I claimed Kun would win, and would win because of his foreign saber and style, and how Ulic is this this and that. IF you don't have a point(you don't), shut up already. I'm getting tired debating with an imbecile.




But..You...Said...Yoda...Beat...Him... Do you know what a victory is? Or are you really mentally handicapped?





Yet it was a great example of how experience isn't a main determinant of any fight. Vodo was also what, 600 years old, and Kun wtfpwned him badly. SO your point is moot(as always).






It was actually a mockery of a post that not only made no sense, but had very little logic in it. I'm not surprised it went over your head.





He was caught unaware, hit from behind and forward. OMg he couldn't use force speed in that instance!! Way to conveniently miss that point dumbass. Furthermore, force speed is a basic jedi tactic, and seeing as how Kun was one of the top force users in the SW universe, it's not only possible, but VERY LIKELY he knew force speed. You done yet? You're like a broken record..

I'm tired of obliging you any further and arguing with a proven retard.

So basically alot of irrelevant crap, and no actual responding to the point of Yoda dividing and conquering Kun and Dooku, please tell me how my logic fails, how that WOULDN'T happen because you've yet to (and likely won't because your best shot was:

"LAWLZ he be ova confident111!!"

And so Sarah if all you have is shitty insults and no argument I think this crap is pretty much done.

So please sweet cheeks go down anther bottle of Absinthe cause drinking hard liquor is the only way you'll be able to convince yourself you don't absolute suck more ass then your 2$ hooker whore of a mother who was knocked up at a truck stop and had the mentally challenge bastard child known as you.

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
I'm tired of obliging you any further and arguing with a proven retard.
Says the dumbass who has shown no ability to form a cogent argument.


How is Yoda going to divide and conquer dipshit? He's got two VERY POWERFUL SITH LORDS on his ass like white on rice.. Just saying "omgz Yoda will divide and conquer" doesn't make it fact Molly. I didn't know you were a platoon general.




Gosh Molly, it took you a while to think of that one huh? Why don't you come back when you actually have an argument, not useless assumptions and lack of reading comprehension abilities. Stop embarassing yourself.

Says the dumbass who doesn't even have an argument to begin with, ***.





OMG Really!! TWOOO POWAFUL SITH LAWDS!!! OMG! To bad he's individually better then BOTH, And went one on one with the MOST POWERFUL SITH LORD EVER and damn near won, the same who makes the VERY POWERFUL SITH LORD Dooku cry like a little *****. And he can't pull it off? Really Maul did it to OB1 and Grevious, Dooku did it, its no stretch Yoda can pull off a basic tactic.

Just saying "He can't do it." DOESN'T make it fact, you got that Shelly? Round these parts we back up are little assumptions with you know a ARGUMENT (I know this concept if forgien to a truck stop bastard child who ate paint chips but please try to keep up) and till you refute this:




You don't have a goddamn point, you get? And it doesn't matter who powerful they each are on their own, Yoda is better and one on one he beats them both, Dooku even admits in the opening stages of the duel when Obi Wan and Anakin where in their act that individually they could be a match for Dooku but together they're an utter flop, much like what would happen to the two before-mentioned Sith fighting together.

Stop embarrassing yourself.

Good one styles.. I forgot, the moronic debaters on this forum play "I know you are but what am I"... Yet again, since you don't have an argument, nor any debating skills whatsoever...
http://pictureserver.funnyjunk.com/pics2/shut_up.gif

Look on ladies and gentlemen, the monkey has been bested in everyway it reverts back to its most bases behavior: posting dumbass pictures.



Translation: I don't have an argument, some I'm going to go off in more irrelevant misdirection, because well thats all I'm good for, your better then me in every way and I concede the argument I didn't have to begin with.

Chompin on those paint chips and downing that liquor must be affecting your vision, so cause I like you so very much I'll post the argument one more time and I'll make it large enough for even a retarded shit stain like you can see:

he'd do a tactic similar to what Dooku did in the opening stages of the duel with Anakin and Obi Wan:

Where as all Dooku need do was to step from one side to anther - and occasionally flip over a head here and there--so that he could fight them in turn rather than both at the same time.

Divide and conquer a simple tactic, that would work very effectively in this case because Exar Kun and Dooku don't know shit about each other and can't fight as a team like Obi Wan and ANakin did in the latter stages of the duel, other then that Exar Kun wields a completely forgien weapon and a foreign style. to Dooku so he couldn't analyze the advantages and disadvantages of a combo attack.

They were not prepared to fight against a single force user certainly not one of Dooku's power he on the other hand had always fought alone. It was laughably easy to keep the Jedi tripping and stumbling and getting in each others way.

Thats what I see happening to Kun and Dooku, Dooku as the narration stated ALWAYS fought alone and thus probably knows zlich about a team battle, and Kun has apparently never been in a team battle in his life. Combine that with the fact that both of them have HUGE ass ego's I HIGHLY doubt they could put that aside and work together as a team, and Yoda is Dooku's personal enemy who gets very under his skin, how would he feel about this relative stranger barging him aside to try and kill his former Master and arch nemesis? They'd be more likely to fight each other rather then Yoda.

Yoda doesn't have to be miles and miles ahead of them both to win, he just has to use basic tactics to separate and defeat them individually . QUOTE]

Are you done tool? Let me as you a more important question since you seem to be addressing the public. Who really gives a shit? You have not offered a single shred of evidence that would make Yoda the victor against these two. Simply saying "omg divide and conquer", doesn't make it so. Not to mention Dooku and Kun's style won't get in the way of each other. But sure, Yoda has force speed and "Divide and conquer" techniques, so he's going to win. Stop wasting bandwidth with this shit you call an argument..

Divide and Conquer? When you are dealing with duelists like Dooku and Kun, that strategy would probably turn out to be something more like "Divide and get crushed."

Divide and conquer is a strategy that only works when your opponent is scared. Somehow I can't imagine Exar Kun saying to himself, "Oh! Oh! Goodness gracious me! I've been separated from my Lord Tyrannus! What am I ever going to do?"

Besides, Makashi's precision would probably allow it to strategically weave through Jar'Kai, so Dooku and Kun might make a good team anyway.

Originally posted by Quark_666
Divide and Conquer? When you are dealing with duelists like Dooku and Kun, that strategy would probably turn out to be something more like "Divide and get crushed."

Divide and conquer is a strategy that only works when your opponent is scared. Somehow I can't imagine Exar Kun saying to himself, "Oh! Oh! Goodness gracious me! I've been separated from my Lord Tyrannus! What am I ever going to do?"

Besides, Makashi's precision would probably allow it to strategically weave through Jar'Kai, so Dooku and Kun might make a good team anyway. Agree.

Originally posted by Quark_666
Divide and Conquer? When you are dealing with duelists like Dooku and Kun, that strategy would probably turn out to be something more like "Divide and get crushed."

Divide and conquer is a strategy that only works when your opponent is scared. Somehow I can't imagine Exar Kun saying to himself, "Oh! Oh! Goodness gracious me! I've been separated from my Lord Tyrannus! What am I ever going to do?"

Besides, Makashi's precision would probably allow it to strategically weave through Jar'Kai, so Dooku and Kun might make a good team anyway.


That's the point. You're going to confuse Styles though.

Are you talking to me? Cause I'm agreeing with you.

Yea Im talking to you and agreeing with you saying Styles is going to get confused.

Since when? Yoda's firm superiority in speed (I would assume he's superior to Exar Kun in that department based on what's been said in this thread, and I know that he's superior to Dooku by a great deal when it comes to speed based on the movies) as well as Exar Kun and Dooku's obvious lack of cohesion would likely make the tactic pretty easy to pull off. So I don't see where you're getting the idea that it's absolutely necessary that Exar and Dooku be afraid for the tactic to work.

Originally posted by nmensfinest
Since when? Yoda's firm superiority in speed (I would assume he's superior to Exar Kun in that department based on what's been said in this thread, and I know that he's superior to Dooku by a great deal when it comes to speed based on the movies) as well as Exar Kun and Dooku's obvious lack of cohesion would likely make the tactic pretty easy to pull off. So I don't see where you're getting the idea that it's absolutely necessary that Exar and Dooku be afraid for the tactic to work.

You're assuming the two are going to have a lack of cohesion. Don't know where you got that from. I can just as easily say that their styles allow them to gang up on Yoda from both sides and Yoda, while fast, is not fast enough to dodge the blades of Dooku and Kun, who are in his league.

Wait, are we talking about Kun using a double-lightsaber or using two lightsabers? Because I have to agree with mensfinest...I don't see Kun working with Dooku if he is using a double lightsaber.

On the other hand, I see them working together pretty well if Kun uses Jar'Kai (the form of two separate sabers). Double lightsabers might be fine against multiple opponents, but they aren't good at becoming one of the multiple opponents.

dooku and kun win

Agreed. Dooku would have to constantly watch out for not being sliced by Kun. This could gave yoda an advantage.

Originally posted by kamhal
Agreed. Dooku would have to constantly watch out for not being sliced by Kun. This could gave yoda an advantage.

And Yoda's speed and acrobatics could draw them closer together which could present a problem but in the end he will tire and go down.

You guys just don't get it. It's not a NORMAL double blade, the one Maul used. This blade is shorter than a human being because of its hilt, and it's intensities can be altered. Not to mention Kun wields it like a single blade so there is no difference.

So? But it's still a big doublelightsaber, dangerous to dooku



So what?



There are much of a diference, because if kun wields it like a normal blade he will slash himself quite fast.

And i didn't say yoda wins this, just that this is far from being an overkill. It's quite close actually.

Originally posted by kamhal
So? But it's still a big doublelightsaber, dangerous to dooku



So what?
The point is it's actually the same size as a normal blade, so you can't say it will be a threat to anyone since the size varies.




Uh that doesn't make any sense. Kun wielded it like a normal blade against Vodo, and wtfpwned him. He wielded it like a normal blade against Ood as well.



I never said it would be an overkill, however Yoda doesn't walk out alive.

So, are you saying that each of both blades was half the side from a normal one? ...



So what? Is Vodo anything special?



Did i say the other way?

Originally posted by kamhal So, are you saying that each of both blades was half the side from a normal one? ...
I'm not sure, but I'm saying he can make it that way.




Wtf does Vodo have to do with anything? The point was that he was able to wield it like a single blade to perfection.

Um, no. As I've proved in this topic there is not one single shred of evidence that suggest that Exar Kun is any better then Asajji Ventress in lightsaber dueling, and thats being generous, had Exar Kun been replaced by some one like Mace Windu, Anakin, Luke, Kas'im, or any other of the dueling greats (Not Kun) Yoda'd be crushed, however in this case your dealing with a padawan turned Sith Lord who has only been in 2 *real* duels in his life.

But just so where on the same page, lets readdress all the evidence toward Kun's dueling skills

-He's only been in two "real" duels, where he faced life or death situations.

-He's called a Master-swordsman, but then again so what, so is a plethora of other people including Ventress who got owned by Mace Windu. The Master-swordsman title was also given to the likes of Agen Kolar, Sasees Tinn, and Kit Fisto whom all if you recall were killed in 4 seconds by Palpatine, whom is equal with Yoda in all terms what does that translate to? Yoda shits on Master-swordsmen. The unsubstantiated *Master-swordsman* title is irrelevant when pit against people like Yoda or Dooku.

-He has a unique style/saber, big whoop, so did Ventress in Clone Wars vol. 1 but she got owned ,so did Maw and he got pissed on by Neophyte Kyle Katarn, so did Shado Vao and he couldn't beat Darth Talon.

-He stalemated Ulic which means zlich in comparison to Yoda.

So please tell me how a "duelist like Kun" stands next to Yoda?

And for your little joke of divide and get crushed to work that have assume that either Exar Kun or Dooku alone could beat Yoda which is not going to happen.



Wow, someone lacks SEVER knowledge of military/combat tactics, do you even understand what "Divide and Conquer" is, you separate and fight them one at a time they don't have to be physically in separate rooms just as long as both combatants aren't being engaged at the same time, which in this dueling situation would require Yoda to leap over(which he'd easily be able to do as he bounced around Sidious with ease) one of the others heads, and side step much like what Dooku was doing in the ROTS novel, Yoda who is better then the both would have no problem with that.

And Yoda is fast enough to dodge the attacks from these to together, as he moves faster then 3 Jedi Masters including Depa Billup whose bladework was on the level of Mace Windu's attacking at once. Also he's able to keep up with Sidious whom was called a "shadow" in the ROTS novel for his speed, the speed the allowed him to as I've said kill 3 "master swordsman" in seconds.

Its utterly ridicules to assume that two people who have ZERO knowledge of each other, one of the pair admittedly ONLY fights by himself and Exar Kun has the combat experience of only two life or death duels, would work together in perfect unison to attack Yoda, or even compliment each other, considering the fact that Dooku doesn't even know what style Kun uses.

Moreover, were not even taking into account BOTH Sith's HUGE ego's, first to assume the arrogant Exar Kun who knows nothing about Yoda would go all out against a tiny little green muppet at the start is also pretty dumb. Second, to assume that Dooku who is even more arrogant then Exar Kun would accept his help is also debatable, followed by the fact that Yoda is his arch nemesis why would he allow someone who has no attachment to Yoda to potentially slay him? Third, why in the hell would Kun accept Dooku's help? When he first heard there were others who claimed the Sith title what did he do? Go out and try to form an alliance with them? No. He tried to kill them no questions asked.

Shit Stain will try to have you believe that the two Sith Lords EXTREME1!!!11 power will be to much for Yoda but what he fails to mention is that all Exar Kun's EXTREME!111!! power was in the force as the narration in DLOTS, TSW and numerous sourcebooks state, and Dooku whose own EXTREMEE!!!1 power which was at its apex on Vjun was soundly bested by Yoda, doubled with the fact that Yoda has faced the EXTREMEME!111 power of the "most powerful Sith Lord ever." in Sidious, took it and damn near won. He is facing no problem in these two.



To bad where using Double bladed saber Kun a style which he only had 6 months to develop and Dooku knows NOTHING about.

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
Um, no. As I've proved in this topic there is not one single shred of evidence that suggest that Exar Kun is any better then Asajji Ventress in lightsaber dueling, and thats being generous, had Exar Kun been replaced by some one like Mace Windu, Anakin, Luke, Kas'im, or any other of the dueling greats (Not Kun) Yoda'd be crushed, however in this case your dealing with a padawan turned Sith Lord who has only been in 2 *real* duels in his life.
Again jackass, just because you say you have proven something doesn't make it so. Tell me, when's the last time we had a powerful force user that was anything but an exceptional lightsaber duelist? Secondly, what makes Kas'im better than Kun? Thirdly, Exar Kun's force potential and abilities were clear from the beginning, so what makes you think he couldn't have excelled at the pace of Anakin? But I guess Exar Kun is an uber powerful force user with average saber abilities, when he stalemated another prodigy, and wtfpwned everyone else. Once again you've proven your constant ability to diminish a character, as the focal point of your argument.



Gee, how many was Obiwan in before he beat Maul? Oh wait, zero?


I love the double standards here. So because others have been called master swordsmen, Kun is automatically below everyone else. I can do the same shit and put him above everyone else, but I'd have the same evidence as you have putting him under many characters, NONE..


Was Ventress on the level of Kun? Did she have the same raw force abilities? You know, force abilities do translate into saber combat..



Same reason why he, like Yoda, were above and beyond everyone in their age. But of course you're too incompetent to realize that the best argument you have is "it would be hard to compare the two" as opposed to "Yoda was in the PT era so he would WTFPWN Kun".


Except good luck to Yoda dividing the two.




Um Yoda being better than both translates into him being better than both combined? I know your math is off, but 2>1. Now tell me, what evidence is there that Yoda can separate two combatants of this magnitude? And even if he does(Unlikely), he's not going to be pwning anyone in 10-20 seconds, while the other combatant sits there with his hands in his pants..


And when exactly did these master swordsmen get on the level of Kun and Dooku? None of those 3 have shown ANYTHING resembling saber gods..


And it's utterly ridiculous to assume that they wouldn't be able to adjust. Their styles don't require too much room. One guy on one side, other guy on the other.. How difficult does that sound?


Oh right, their huge ego.. And yet Yoda's ego doesn't play a part in this..Ahhh the double standards. Not to mention you're arguing retarded scenarios. I can simply say "well they will communicate in the force and wtfpwn Yoda". Who the hell knows, you don't see me making up ridiculous scenarios. But your justification for diminishing non PT characters, is finally evident.


And yet. Name me an uber powerful force user who was shit with a saber? Secondly, Dooku's abilities aren't on the level of Kun.. Please, Yoda will put up a good fight but no way in hell is he going to divide and conquer anybody.





What's your point? Dooku has seen double bladed sabers in his day. I think he can surmise how it works.. Too bad Styles

For starters Bane, whom while impressive with a saber when pit against Kas'im and when Kas'm busted out shit he hadn't seen he got his shit pushed in.

Jacen Solo, while again good dueling and seemingly a master of all the mundane force powers when pit against Mara Jade he nearly gets killed.

Bastila, whom is powerful in the force has an very powerful command over it (as evident of her instantaneous Battle Meditation) was easily subdued by Malak, was beaten by Revan 5 times, while these characters are stronger then her theres little evidence to assume she was a beast in saber combat

Master Fay, who Obi Wan in a mission with several other Jedi Masters called the "most powerful of us" whom was strong enough to keep Obi Wan alive from killer wounds and break Ventress mind, she had little to no ability with a saber.

Kyp Durron, who is thrid in the NJO on the force power scale but with a saber...not really.

Jerec who was also strong in the force but even Neophyte Kyle Katarn beat him while he drew power from the Valley of the Jedi and Qu Rahn nearly beat him.

Darth Nihlius whose like saber skills were bested by the Exile, Visass and Mandalore.

Kreia very powerful in the force and knows many Sith powers yet blew with a saber, to the point that the Exile and Sion have diced off her hands.

The seers of the Covenant, all powerful force users who can see far into the future but when pit against their "guardian" Lucien Draay he beat them all at the same time in straight saber combat.

I can go on...




In saber ability? Um lets see the fact that he's mastered every style to its highest degree, devoted his life to saber combat, and was said to be possibly the greatest saber duelist ever.



Because he's no Anakin, he's no literal son of the force and any thinking that he did excel like Anakin is wishful thinking and speculation on your part, doubled with the fact that he had about 2 years less then Anakin to further his skill.



Did I say they were average? No, your not average when your labled a Master swordsman, but however there seems to be a whole different level of mastery that people like Luke, Yoda, Sidious, Mace and Anakin have attained.



You mean Crado, Syvlar and Vodo? Wow that accounts for the thousands and thousands in the Jedi Order at the time



Once again you've proven you have no clue what your talking about.



Alot actually, including the numerous duels with the powerful Xantros, as a padawan he even killed anther while dueling. Wrong again.




NO, I did not say that. I said there's no evidence that puts him on the level of people who have wiped their asses with master swordsmen, people like Anakin, Mace, Yoda and Sidious. That is what you fail to get.




As does actual skill, mastery, and combat experience. Ventress in no way has the raw power of Exar Kun but she does apparently have more skill with a blade as she comfortably took on three Jedi at once, held them off while smiling, pissed on Sora Bluq, managed to scar Anakin, and had her skills noted by Sidious himself.

Even Bane himself who had all the raw force power on his side could only compete with the mastery of Kas'im because he memorized ALL his moves and when Kas'im busted out something new he got shitted on.





Oh yeah I guess Yoda is completely incapable of flipping over either head, and I guess he's just not faster then either of them.





Because Kun would die relatively quickly, so there goes your argument.




Neither has Kun, that is why you fail.




If your going to assume that they will inclose on Yoda from different angles then you can't just assume Yoda WOULDN'T simply jump over ones head and then be fighting that foe individually, and if its Kun then he dies relatively quickly.



Ahh Yoda's huge ego that you have no evidence of, yup that'll definitely be his un.doing even though when he went to fight the most powerful Sith Lord ever he went with 'reverence' with 'gratitude' yup sure sounds like that arrogant ego was getting in the way.




In the force, no. In sabers HELL YES.



One like Kun's...one wielded like Kuns...nope.. Too bad Shit Stain.

Cry me a river homo. I'll refute your crap in a few hours..

Whatever Shit Stain, unlike you I have a life and can't be on the net all night, so whatever little garbage you spew will be pissed on tomorrow.

Sure dumbshit, please try to convince everyone that you have a life and aren't online all day, unlike me(supposedly). You make me giggle like giddy schoolgirl with your half assed retorts.

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
For starters Bane, whom while impressive with a saber when pit against Kas'im and when Kas'm busted out shit he hadn't seen he got his shit pushed in.
Uh yea, Kas'im had to bust out something Bane has never seen before, so thanks for proving my point in cases where unique style does matter. And Bane trained for what, a year or two and was able to hold his own against the greatest lightsaber duelist in the galaxy? I can't understand if you're arguing for me or against me.


Didn't Jacen Solo go apeshit on the Vong during the war?


Uh powerful in the force? You mean she had one technique under her belt, and the rest made her mediocre AT BEST? Great example Molly. And the BM isn't instantaneous. Beaten by Revan 5 times? Good lord, the concept that game play mechanics aren't canon, eludes you. YOu don't know how many times he beat her.


Wonderful evidence. "This person called this person".. Thank god you're not training to be a lawyer.


He's actually quite skilled with a saber, just not on the level of Luke.


Um Jerec wasn't strong in the force, unless you are going to consider the Valley of the JEdi as his natural force abilities.


Except we don't know how good any of those are since they are large unknowns.


See above


Please do, you've proven my case more.



Yet 6 months still made him the most powerful force user/saber duelist in the galaxy, so he was at the very least, very powerful. Of course, with the PT fanboyism, your rebuttal will be "No he wasn't strong, everyone was WEAK!@!$!"





And I rest my case.




THis coming from the man that's helping my argument. Doesn't look like you have any credibility in terms of telling me I have no clue what I'm talking about.



Wait, because she took on 3 Jedi, and Kun never had to, she's suddenly better with a blade? OMg what a master debater..


Yet Bane's force abilities made him the best lightsaber duelist in the academy, after what, a year or two training max? Thanks for proving my point AGAIN..






Right, just like Dooku and Kun are INCAPABLE of having cohesion...Right..






Right, because your opinion means anything to this forum, much less destroys anyone arguments..





Ahhhh..Denial





More stupidity...You're earning a name for yourself Molly.




Right, because he actually went into the fight with the most powerful sith lord, cocky as hell. I guess you missed the movie, but I'm not surprised that another obvious thing went over your head.






This wasn't even a challenge. GO back to the drawing board Molly.

Well...I belive, that back there, on Geonosis, Dooku had priority of taking the designes for the Death Star to his master Sidious. The priority was never destroying the Jedi or something...They were just on his way...
Why else would he be in a hangar anyway...

I think that he could fight Yoda more time, but he just couldn't risk the designes falling in to Jedi hands...


Sorry for my bad English and a lack of SW knowledge, and perhaps even overlooking some posts which maybe alredy stated that.

I just want to note that, next time some talk about Revan's lightsaber abilities, i will throw this to his (or her) face. If you disagree, discuss with Darth Sexy...

What exactly does that mean Kamhal?

I am using you own words. I think i was quite especific.

Ok I still don't know what that means. Revan's lightsaber abilities are unknown, period. Not strong, not weak, unknown.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Ok I still don't know what that means. Revan's lightsaber abilities are unknown, period. Not strong, not weak, unknown.
Revan has always been intended to be a skilled swordsman.

He looked confident enough to deal with the entire Jedi Strike Team single-handedly with just his Light Saber and was swinging it around with impressive speed and style which shows that he was damn good with it, as evident from a video in KOTOR.

However you are right that we need to know more about his Saber Combat skills to judge him properly in this case.

What i said was simple: you said that all the especially powerful jedi or sith were exceptional lightsaber duelists. I said that i would use this argument of yours to justify that Revan was good with his saber. As simple as this.

No, I never said that. I said find me someone who is powerful in the force who is NOT a good lightsaber duelist. With my line of reasoning, Revan must be good, because he was the best in the order of tens of thousands. However, I can't substantiate how good he is.

Maybe there was something you didn't get about Bane training every night for about a year or two with Kas'im in hardcore lightsaber duels that left them both drenched in sweat. Aside from that as stated the ONLY reason Bane was able to keep up with Kas'im was because as the novel:

"Over the course of his training Bane had seen every possible sequence, series, move, and trick with the double bladed lightsaber, and he knew how to counter and nullify them all." - PoD pg 243

Well would you look at that once again the source material proves you wrong. Bane for all his extreme power in the dark side of the force (he filled a large library with lightning the first time he ever attempted it, he demolished a 20 story building with a force wave, he killed his father with no training with his rage alone while sleeping) he would have gotten WTFpwned by Kas'im had it not been for the previous advantage.

By your shitty ass logic, Obi Wan is on Anakins level cause they trained for hours upon hours together and knew each other inside and out.

That clearly answers the "Show me an uber force user who didn't have uber dueling skills" crap. Try again, shit stain.




Oh you mean AFTER he tapped into the living force. Try again Shit Stain.




Oh you mean like the Republic didn't start winning immediately after she choose to aid them, and where given a cut scene to show it. Try again, Shit Stain.




Cause maybe just maybe where given separate cutscenes showing Basitila rise from a defeat given to her by Revan. Try again, Shit Stain.




Whats funny is: your such a horrid debater but you are actually training to be a lawyer. God I feel bad for your whore mother all that cock sucking for nothing.

Tell me: how many dicks did she have to blow for you to get into the Texas U?



Oh you mean like where he couldn't take down two Vong Warriors...




Proof of that? Considering he lead several powerful Dark Jedi, was hunted by High Inquisitor Tremayne for his power and the Emperor even valued his power. PLUS he gets the VotJ to boost him yet still gets beat by Neophyte Kyle Katarn. Try Again, Shit Stain




Oh yeah Kreia who got her hand diced off by Sion in one slash then got the other diced off by the Exile, who displays no real dueling talent what so ever and in all her scenes in battle almost always goes with a force attack. And when she does use her saber she gets her hands diced off. That proof enough of her lack of skill. Try again, Shit Stain

Plus the Covenant examples still stand.



Shit Stain response: Lawlz like you be in denialllzz!!11





There you go. And even still that only accounts for Dark Side users, as the quote is:

"Darkest power in the galaxy."

Don't you hate it when the source material proves you wrong.

BTW Shit Stain if your going to try and manipulate the sources at least be somewhat good at it like Nai.




What case? You have to have an argument that revolved around more then: "Nuh Uh!11!!!!"



No genius she has far more sources to back up her dueling ability then Kun does and in these forums where more sources regarding prowess > vague unsubstantiated quotes and fanboyish bullshit.




Ahhhh..Denial





Oh and that would be evident by the fact that he thought he would win? OMG what COCKYNESSS!!!111! How dare he be confident in his abilities, Or what your other source be? Sidious calling him arrogant? LOL. The ROTS novel proves you wrong.




I'll do that Shit Stain, when you form a coherent, valid response.

Is it always this way between Darth Sexy and Styles?

Yup.

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
Maybe there was something you didn't get about Bane training every night for about a year or two with Kas'im in hardcore lightsaber duels that left them both drenched in sweat. Aside from that as stated the ONLY reason Bane was able to keep up with Kas'im was because as the novel:

"Over the course of his training Bane had seen every possible sequence, series, move, and trick with the double bladed lightsaber, and he knew how to counter and nullify them all." - PoD pg 243

Well would you look at that once again the source material proves you wrong. Bane for all his extreme power in the dark side of the force (he filled a large library with lightning the first time he ever attempted it, he demolished a 20 story building with a force wave, he killed his father with no training with his rage alone while sleeping) he would have gotten WTFpwned by Kas'im had it not been for the previous advantage.

By your shitty ass logic, Obi Wan is on Anakins level cause they trained for hours upon hours together and knew each other inside and out.

That clearly answers the "Show me an uber force user who didn't have uber dueling skills" crap. Try again, shit stain.
Wow.. You are the dumbest human being on this forum with the worst reading comprehension skills imaginable. I said "Show me an uber powerful force user who is shit with a lightsaber", and you twisted it into THAT? Wow... Furthermore, Bane's two year stint at the academy made him the best lightsaber duelist next to Kas'im, so my case is proven CORRECT, as he surpassed everyone in the academy and hell, even the BOD.. Great argument dumbass.





Guess you don't know the difference between having one unique ability, and being powerful in the force. By your retarded logic, The Exile=God. Great argument Molly.




are actually training to be a lawyer. God I feel bad for your whore mother all that cock sucking for nothing.
See, now if a competent debater(or human being for that matter), like Escape or Advent called me a terrible debater, I'd take offensive and step up my game. But with you, I can make shit up in a foreign language and it would still be beyond anything you've come up with on this forum.


I don't know captain community college, you tell me.




Kreia got her hand sliced off by Sion? Gee, she had two hands after that first level, and Sion bows to her on nearly every level. Great example dumbass.


Says the one who can't read for shit, and changes arguments around because he's a moron. Not to mention that quote means what exactly? My god you're a moron.





Right, Vague and unsubstantiated. Good one molly.


Good lord, I haven't seen someone this dumb since Numan was lurking around here.. Way to go Molly..

Dooku held his own against Yoda.
Against Tyranus AND Kun, Yoda would have to hold HIS own...

It would be a close fight but at the end Yoda would die...
Kun isn't that weaker then Mace, and in Yoda and Jango vs. Dooku and Windu, there were clearly more votes for the team 2.

Yes Dooku did held his own against Yoda and i provided proof that he can hold his own. He is not super super close to Yoda, but close. Yoda is ahead of him, by couple of steps.

Wait would yoda not like use the force to take out one then use his lightsaber to blow the other....

Force is forbidden in this fight and even if it wasn't, it wouldn't be that easy.

My bad that changes alot yah i dont think Yoda could take them both exar kun is pretty good and dooku can hold yoda off so i think both of them against him nah yoda yoda would lose.

If the force is completely forbidden then of course Yoda looses since he relies on it to help him(stamina,flipping around like a monkey)

Guess you don't know the difference between having one unique ability, and being powerful in the force. By your retarded logic, The Exile=God. Great argument Molly.




Um no Bastila is far more than just one unique ability ( and so is the exile for that matter) Bastila was activily sought out by Darth Malak to become his new apprentice.

Now if Bastila only had one ability that she could do very well then explain Malak making her his new apprentice when he could have chosen someone else(I mean Sion was a sith lord under Malak)

The sith are all about power and if bastila sucks at every thing else other than battle meditation then why make her the second in line to the throne of Dark Lord of the Sith? Why not simply turn her to the dark side and have her just stay on the star forge using battle meditation to crush the republic ? Why send such a weakling out on a mission to kill Revan on Rakata Prime?

Originally posted by Darth Hord
If the force is completely forbidden then of course Yoda looses since he relies on it to help him(stamina,flipping around like a monkey)

Im just saying thats a huge downer cause he is like majour strong with the force.

Originally posted by Darth Hord
If the force is completely forbidden then of course Yoda looses since he relies on it to help him(stamina,flipping around like a monkey)

I meant, offensive Force techniques are forbidden(Push, Lightning, Choke...), precog and the way you fight in not and that would apply to Dooku as well, without the Force he would break a hip, if he tried just to move.

And Jole Bindo, who is arguing about Bastila in this thread.

Originally posted by Count Makashi
I meant, offensive Force techniques are forbidden(Push, Lightning, Choke...), precog and the way you fight in not and that would apply to Dooku as well, without the Force he would break a hip, if he tried just to move.

I know I was joking note the smilyface/wink.

Originally posted by Darth Hord
I know I was joking note the smilyface/wink.

Now i feel like an ass.

And since when did Basitalla enter in on the duscussion?

Originally posted by Darth Hord
I know I was joking note the smilyface/wink.

Wait i have a question is Yoda pwoerfull enough to like just whip the saber out of Kun's hand???

No

Didnt think so.... damnet

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
Maybe there was something you didn't get about Bane training every night for about a year or two with Kas'im in hardcore lightsaber duels that left them both drenched in sweat. Aside from that as stated the ONLY reason Bane was able to keep up with Kas'im was because as the novel:

"Over the course of his training Bane had seen every possible sequence, series, move, and trick with the double bladed lightsaber, and he knew how to counter and nullify them all." - PoD pg 243


Maybe there was something you didn't get while reading Path of Destruction. Really, Styles. If you want to use a certain source be sure that the source itself doesn't contradict your precious ideas.

"Fohargh was better trained than you," he snapped. "He knew more sequences, he knew more forms. But they couldn't save him.

"The sequences are just tools. They help you free your mind so you can draw upon the Force. That is where you will find the key to victory. Not in the muscles of your arms or the quickness of your blade. You must call upon the dark side to destroy your enemies!" (Kas'im lecturing Bane on the use of sequences in lightsaber combat, PoD)

Apparently the lightsaber ability of a certain force user is determined more by his actual strength in the force than by the number of sequences or forms he has learned (meaning his actual lightsaber training). And here is another one from Kas'im to Bane:

"That's what made it such a potentially devastating move," Kas'im explained. "You're letting the Force guide your blade now. You act without thought or reason. You're driven by passion: fury, anger...even hate. Your saber has become an extension of the dark side."

This is after he says that Bane has "moved beyond sequences and forms". And before I forget it, right after this comment, he gives that comment here on his double-bladed lightsaber:

"As you already know, the Force is the real key to victory in any confrontation. However, the equation is not so simple. Someone well trained in lightsaber combat can defeat an opponent who is stronger in the Force. The Force allows you to anticipate your opponent's moves and counter them with your own. But the more options your foe has available, the more difficult it is to predict which will be chosen."

This is the very essence of lightsaber combat. First it's decided by actual force power which is the "real key" in confrontation. Only after that the forms, sequences and the other stuff moves in. Hence Bane (because of having superior force powers) did dominate Kas'im in their final duel first until Kas'im switched to dual wielding which flooded Bane with more movement possibilities than he was able to anticipate. Yet still Bane managed to defend himself until he reached the exit of the temple.



Wow. Way to exegerate things. He filled a large library with lightning ? Is this why nothing in the library was damaged but just some of the scrolls / books fell out of their places. Indeed. What an impressive display of force power. And he demolished a 20 story building with a force wave ? Interresting. I hope you aren't talking about the Temple on Lehon because Bane just demolished the entranceway into the temple, burrying Kas'im under it.



This "shitty logic" is apparently shared by Nick Gillard who said that Anakin and Obi-Wan are basically equal with Anakin's only advantage being the Dark Side which makes him a little bit stronger in actual confrontation. We still saw that this wasn't enough to beat Kenobi.



I wonder how it does that because I don't see a single being in this argument so far that does deserve the "uber powerful" rating.



Do you call that an argument ? Yes he tapped into the force and kicked some Vong. I wonder how that doesn't mean he's good with a lightsaber.



Meaning what ? The only way to counter battle meditation is to use a more powerful version of battle meditation. I didn't see Malak sitting on his ass meditating when Revan entered the bridge. So how does that proof that Bastila must be powerful ? Arca Jeth did decide battles instantly by appearing on the battlefield using battle meditation while, at the same time, navigating his star-ship. He must be a damn force god I guess.



Yeah. Logic surrenders to game mechanics. So...effectively...you want to tell us that Revan did cut Bastila down with a lightsaber four times hitting her multiple times with that energy blade which cuts through everything. Technically Revan should have hacked Bastila into tiny little bits if that was the case. Maybe you might want to check the WotC SW RPG, which KotoR is based on, to see what hitpoints (or vitality points) actually do in that game.



What a display of intellectual superiority from our debating ace Styles. Applause. You have finally reached the level of persons I wouldn't even piss on if they were on fire.



Another nice argument. So because Kyp Durron wasn't capable of taking out two individuals that he couldn't affect via the force, couldn't sense through the force and who, on top of that, were equipped with lightsaber resistant armor and weapons, he must suck in lightsaber combat ? A giant leap in the series of Styles' bullshit conclusions and a giant step backwards for his (already nonexistant) debating culture.




Wow, dude ? You aren't asking him to proof are negative, are you ? Because that would be fallacious. Instead you might want to give us all insight to the huge amount of situations in which Jerec demonstrated his vast force powers because I can't recall a single one of them.



Oh wait...she get's one of her hands cut off when she doesn't expect an attack because of thinking that the guy in front of her isn't able to see or sense her. Hmm. The second hand is taken by an individual that had been noted by several persons to be a lightsaber prodigy. Yet that somehow proves that Kreia sucked in melee combat ?



Yes. Except your "example" was a little bit flawed because what Lucien did was actually defeating four of his fellow apprentices that would (possibly) later become the greatest seers of the Covenant. At the time he took them in lightsaber combat they still were traines. This aside from the fact that a strength in one single ability (in this case farseeing) doesn't equate being an uber force user.

Erm, dude. Don't you hate when the source material proves you wrong. The particular quote refers to Dark Siders, yes.

But somehow you must just have deleted the rest of the TOTJ comics from your mind, eh ?

Kun:
- killed the TOTJ Jedi Orders spokesman (Odan) with a single force attack
- tooled one of their most experienced Jedi Masters (Vodo) in melee combat
- had another of the experienced masters (Odd) acknowledging that he has no chance against Kun in direct confrontation
- had his Dark Jedi, who were equipped with just a fraction of Kun's power and knowledge, kill another eight Jedi Masters

So may I ask you who do you think was more powerful than Kun during Kun's lifetime ? Because, apparently, the source material puts him above everybody else in his era.



Yay !
Did you ever read the "Freedon Nadd Uprising", Styles ? You'll possible figure out that we see Vodo in this comic and you might also figure out that he is on Ossus. And what does Vodo do there ? Apparently other Jedi Masters, even powerful ones like Thon, did take their students to Ossus or, to be more specific, to Vodo...and what did they do there ? Holy shit. They learned how to construct and use a lightsaber.

WTF ? Right, dude. Vodo is training students, even those of other masters, in the construction and use of the lightsaber. And he is referring to that people training under him as "students".

Now just a single question: What do you think why Thon takes Nomi to Ossus to study under Vodo ? Because the guy sucked in the lightsaber department ? Hardly. Yet Kun totally destroyed him. I didn't see Asajj doing something compareable. In fact what I see that Dooku is rather bored when fighting her with a lightsaber.

Aside of that we have the premises above given by Kas'im. If you yourself say that Asajj is not even remotely compareable to Kun in the force power department - how can she be above him in an art that is mainly dependant on strength in the force ? Makes no sense.

This is aside from the fact that I neither did see Asajj utilizing serveral forms with a single blade, nor did I see her developing a unique weapon with a corresponding style that features the manipulation of blade length / intensity in the midst of a fight. But that's just me of course.

But let's come back to the original topic. I'm pretty sure that Yoda can destroy Dooku in a lightsaber fight and I'd give him a chance of at least 50 % to take Kun in a one on one fight. But both of them at once ? That's quite a bit too much I guess, even for the uber muppet.

Amen

Not seeing how that would be fallacious dude. Explain yourself. In case you didn't know, when someone naturally makes a negative statement, it's essentially up to them to prove up on said statement. AcStyles was simply asking him to prove up on his claim, and then went on to providing proof for his. He wasn't saying that Jerec was strong in the force because there's no proof that he isn't; now that would be fallacious, but that's not what he did. Though I do agree with you that force strength is a huge factor in lightsaber ability (Yoda is testament to that).

Originally posted by nmensfinest
Not seeing how that would be fallacious dude. Explain yourself. In case you didn't know, when someone naturally makes a negative statement, it's essentially up to them to prove up on said statement. AcStyles was simply asking him to prove up on his claim, and then went on to providing proof for his. He wasn't saying that Jerec was strong in the force because there's no proof that he isn't; now that would be fallacious, but that's not what he did. Though I do agree with you that force strength is a huge factor in lightsaber ability (Yoda is testament to that).

What can I say...

Wrong.

If you had followed the discussion you would be aware of the fact that Styles tried to pass down Jerec as example of a person that, despite of being powerful in the force, wasn't good in terms of lightsaber combat.

Now the burden of proof (that means presenting proof that Jerec was indeed a powerful force user) is on his side. Yet he was asking for proof that Jerec was not powerful. And thereby he did commit the logical fallacy: "Because there is no proof that Jerec wasn't powerful he must have been powerful".

Aside of that it would be, in general, an argumentum ad ignorantiam, because of him assuming that his premise ("Jerec was powerful" must be right because it wasn't proven wrong.

And since I'm already at it: This entire argument is completely stupid. To have those examples making any sense, Styles would be in need to present us a force user who displayed force powers on one level with Exar Kun first. And after that he has to present us a situation where said force user displayed a clear lack of dueling abilities.

Wow, just wow Nai, I find this VERY hilarious, I offered this explanation to YOU in a previous topic (Ulic vs. Exile) as to why Kun apparently has any real skill in the lightsaber department as compared to the greats, and what did you do? You basically said it was dumb and bullshit. Now your trying to use it...as I said hilarious.

As for your and Kas'im's premise of "the force matters not the styles" thats is only half true as Kas'im himself even makes out:

"Someone well trained in lightsaber combat can defeat an opponent who is stronger in the Force."

And his whole premises on lightsaber dueling are all along the path of "hate will fuel you" by his logic any Jedi simply can't compete with a dark side user because they don't have the "option" of powering themselves with the dark side, and we know that to simple not be true.

What also makes this some faulty logic to go on is the duel itself as I pointed out makes it pretty damn well clear that the only reason Bane was able to keep up was because of the fact that he memorized all Kas'im's moves to the point that he had seen literally everything (save for the duel wielding) that Kas'im had to offer in the dueling department. His force power while noted wasn't the reason he won the initial part of the duel.

Now, place those to in the same situation and eliminate the fact that they trained together for countless hours, the outcome is Bane gets wtfpwned as his mind is flooded by the endless possibilities of sequences that Kas'im can generate with his saber. Again anther of his little nuggets of dueling wisdom supports this:

"But the more options your foe has available, the more difficult it is to predict which will be chosen."

Following this path of logic to this scenario, both Kun and Yoda would be unfamiliar to each other and have numerous possibilities that they could muster. However where as there is no solid evidence to show that Kun has EVER seen anything like Yoda's Ataru (based on the fact no body with Yoda's body type even lives in the era save for Vandar and we don't know if ever came in contact with Kun or if he even used Ataru)

There is however minimal evidence that Yoda would at least know what to expect from Exar Kun's DBLS:

Given with the emergence of the Sith and the fact that they're now using DBLS again, Yoda or any Jedi would likely familiarize himself with the fighting form.

Mace Windu despite having apparently never seen DBLS in his life (we've never seen him face to face with one) he manages to wtfpwn Ventress when she busts out a lightsaber stlye completely unique to the Star Wars universe: a one handed curved DBL stlye. He however makes short work of her.

Shado Vao who lived about 170 years from the Golden Age of the Jedi creates a lightsaber very similar to Kuns with the only difference being his is a bit longer, and he wields it similar to Kun: with one hand. He lives in a time where the Jedi are dispersed and there is no formalized training or temple.

Yoda has 900 years of experience, plus the Great Holocron which as the UVG says he's delved into higher then any other Jedi ever. Given with all the evidence its highly likely that Yoda is at least familiar with the DBL style and its off shots. So what do we have? Yoda having some possible knowledge of Kun's style plus force power that was described as a "mountain of light" in the ROTS novelization, all that gives Yoda more "options" in dealing with Kun and making apparent short work of him.

Yet still Bane managed to defend himself until he reached the exit of the temple.

And again there is an explanation to this:

"He knew the layout of the temple, anf he was able to work himself slowly toward a retreat."

He knew where he was going and was moving the battle in that direction a luxury neither combatant has in this topic.

Also anther of Kas'im's quotes serve to undermine Kun:

"You now understand why an exotic weapon or unfamiliar style will be more difficult to defend against, but until you become an expert in a particular style, in the heat of combat your mind will stills struggle to grasp its limitations."

Were given no indication for any source that says Kun completely mastered his form of the DBL saber, if anything were given far more indication that Kun DIDN'T master it:

1.) He had only 6 months of maximum time to train with the weapon, thats assuming that it didn't take a month or two to even create the thing.

2.) He had no superior foes to test or even practice with, Ulic his only among his posse on his level was away busy fighting his war for him, all he had left were his Krath cronies and his few little dark Jedi.

3.) While I'm not sure on this detail, you yourself have said that Kun spent a large part of the time on Yavin during the end stages of the war training his Dark Jedi, that again removes a large amount of time he has to spend training with his own form.

4.) He only uses it against Vodo at the end of the duel, and only uses it to smash repeatedly into Vodo's stick. That leads use to the indication it was used simply to "show off" and not for the actual fighting purposes because the DSSB notes that even while using a single blade Kun was still far superior to Vodo to the point that it states: "he didn't have a chance." Which says basically he could have killed Vodo at any time but chose to flaunt his superiority over him, which fits with Kun's personality, and the entire point of the duel: to show how much better Kun had become.

Follow this up with anther Kas'im quote:

"So by studying different styles, I could negate the advantage?"

"In theory. But time spent studying other styles is time away from mastering your own form."

And what does Kun do? Create a seemingly brand new style thus spending time away from his apparent mastery in the single blade.



Now thats is a gross simplification of what went on.

Make note this is his first try ever:

"The room crackled and hissed as he channeled the energy of the Force and flug it about the room in great arching bolts of blue violent lighting.

Githany stood at the center of a Maelstrom. A fierce wind swirled around them tearing her hair and the folds of her robe. It rocked and shook the bookshelves, knocking manuscripts to the floor and rifling their pages...The thunder was almost deafening, and the storm was still building."

Its made clear it was a storm and that Bane was only just starting.





Ah no.

"There was nothing subtle about Banes attack: the massive shock wave shook the very foundations of the great Ratakan Temple."

"Bane watched the spectacle of the Temples implosion."

Its made VERY clear that the blast affected the whole temple, with that it also had a the power to liquidly a sentient body.

Thats all fine and dandy, but theres more:

He crushed a full Sith Lord, he made Kaan piss his pants in fear, he survived a deadly poison, its made very clear that Bane was VERY powerful in the force.

And I care what the f*ck Nick Gillard says because? Even when all other sources prove him wrong? If you wanna go with author opinions and such the take one from KJA:

Star Wars Insider, Kevin J. Anderson, upon asked if he ever intended his Sith to be stronger than the OT sith: "No. Exar Kun, Naga Sadow and the others are on a firmly lower tier than Emperor Palpatine."

The same Emperor whom of which Yoda is tied with, thus Yoda would easily shit on Kun.



What are you talking about? He can't mimic that feat and he hasn't shown any truly superior dueling skills (Mara Jade made him look like a complete b1tch)




We see cut scenes of energy coming out of the Star Forge healing Bastila, there goes your argument, followed up with the fact that Revan (given the LS nature and the love story being canon) didn't want to harm Bastila so eats easy to assume he went for non lethal blows ie: glances, near touches, a stab to the shoulder, knocking her down and such.




And I care about you and your feelings toward me since when now? I really don't give a shit about about you, so you my friend can kiss my black ass.



He had the power from the VoTJ, thats all I need, it alone contained the power of thousands of force users including Jedi Masters and Sith Lords, with that power QU Rahn says he could wipe out life with a single thought, he had numerous abilities and was very adept in force destruction, he was called without the VOTJ as not quite as strong as Vader who is 80% of the strongest Sith ever.




Thats an interesting view considering they have a conversation and Sion says plain as day:

"I sense you master...faint...weak."

Hmm.



What a spectacular cop out, finally you acknowledger the Exile. Btw I'm still waiting for your response in the Ulic vs Exile topic but I doubt I'll get one since you seem to acknowledge the fact that your flat out wrong.




No, thats where your wrong, given the fact that they're are thousands of Jedi in the galaxy at the time and people like Kreia, Vrook (who was noted as one of the most powerful Jedi in the galaxy) Kavar, and many others were around, its faulty to simply assume that Kun was the best because he's stronger then what the 11 Jedi where shown? However, I will say Kun is the best we've seen but is that an indication he's the best of the era flat out? Nope.




All of my views on the battle have Yoda having to kill one of them to survive without out that he puts up a hell of a fight but dies, you admit he could crush Dooku, so based on that premise Yoda slips away from Kun (which shouldn't be hard as he's faster then three Jedi Masters attacking at once and moves as blurs) and proceeds to crush Dooku, relatively quickly, then it goes to a one on one duel which Yoda would win. Yoda manages to kill one: he wins, Yoda fails to kill one: he loses, simple as that.

Except for the fact that Bane was able to keep up with Kas'im during their sparring bouts, and Kas'im attributed this to Bane giving himself to the darkside completely, and his blade becoming an extension of the darkside. So no, you're wrong as usual.



That's assuming you can prove Ataru was invented after Kun's time. And even if that is the case, it's 100% unlikely Yoda has seen Kun's style, as it died with him.


Except as I've already stated, Kun's unique style died with him, He was able to wield his weapon like a single blade..


Not a very good example considering Mace is the efficient combatant against dark side users.


What is your point?


I love all of these "likely" scenarios you are throwing in this debate when it comes to Yoda, but with Kun it's likely he doesn't know ANYTHING Yoda knows. Double standards? And as I've already stated, Kun's style DIED WITH HIM. Meaning it's NOT in the holocron.


Yea, he was running backwards the entire time. He gave himself to the dark side fully, and as a result of his mastery of the force, he was able to keep up with Kas'im. You proved my point!


How does that undermine Kun? Man, you're desperately trying to discredit Kun aren't you.


You're right, Kun created a form he WOULDNT master. But at the same time, he mastered the dark side teachings he SAID he was going to master. Interesting how he would do 1 and not the other. Oh wait, doesn't make sense.


Yea your assumption. Then again he was a saber prodigy and he obviously knew what he was doing when he created his saber and style, because he was the best duelist in the galaxy, so 6 months means what exactly?


What the hell does this even mean? He had no superior foes? Oh joy, because Kun was miles ahead of everybody, he MUST have sucked because its HIS fault he had no superiors to test it on. Tell me, who did Yoda test his abilities on exactly since he WAS the superior?


Yet this is something you'd have to prove since you're making the claim, or assumption.


If there was an award for "making shit up in place of a legitimate argument", you would get the gold, silver, and bronze.


Are you going to add an argument or just use quotes?


As I recall, he was a master of the double blade and the jar'kai style.



"The room crackled and hissed as he channeled the energy of the Force and flug it about the room in great arching bolts of blue violent lighting.

Githany stood at the center of a Maelstrom. A fierce wind swirled around them tearing her hair and the folds of her robe. It rocked and shook the bookshelves, knocking manuscripts to the floor and rifling their pages...The thunder was almost deafening, and the storm was still building."
Yet nobody else in the temple heard it... What's your point?


Actually he DID just destroy the entrance.. But apparently a 30,000+ year old temple should be able to withstand a force wave...



He was powerful, but look who he was contending with. There was nobody remotely impressive during his time, aside from Kas'ims blade abilities.

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
And I care what the f*ck Nick Gillard says because? Even when all other sources prove him wrong? If you wanna go with author opinions and such the take one from KJA:

Star Wars Insider, Kevin J. Anderson, upon asked if he ever intended his Sith to be stronger than the OT sith: "No. Exar Kun, Naga Sadow and the others are on a firmly lower tier than Emperor Palpatine."

The same Emperor whom of which Yoda is tied with, thus Yoda would easily shit on Kun.
Yes, because this has anything to do with saber combat, or an interpretation that Yoda is somehow miles ahead of Kun.. Which is not the case. However, who cares what KJA said? KJA also said that he thinks Kun and Palpatine should do battle as the strongest sith lords ever(in an email to me a few months ago), so what?




Actually in no way did you defeat Nai's argument. There's nothing to suggest he hit her 4-5 times, hell there's no proof of that anywhere. He defeated her. Non lethal blows with the saber? Right.. He altered the intensity of his blade half way through the fight. Once again, good point styles!





I guess that would make Kyle Katarn a force God who would shit on Vader. Great argument.



Is that why Sion was bowing to her near the end and taking orders? Hmmm..



Have you EVER been right on these forums?




Um wrong. All evidence points to Kun and Revan being the strongest of the TOTJ era. I love your argument though. "Since he's shown more than the other Jedi that have sources behind them, that DOESNT mean hes the most powerful". Great logic Styles. I guess that means Sidious ISNT the most powerful because we don't know about all of the other unknown Jedi/Sith. Or wait.. I guess logical deduction isn't your area of expertise.




And yet denial is the most obvious recourse, other than admitting defeat(which you should have done pages ago).

Originally posted by Borbarad
What can I say...

Wrong.

If you had followed the discussion you would be aware of the fact that Styles tried to pass down Jerec as example of a person that, despite of being powerful in the force, wasn't good in terms of lightsaber combat.

Now the burden of proof (that means presenting proof that Jerec was indeed a powerful force user) is on his side.

You're right in the sense that his original claim hadn't really been backed up, and that because he was the one making the claim, it was up to him to provide proof. However, if you actually bothered to read my post while you were awake rather than asleep, you would have noticed that I didn't dispute that, nor did I address it at all. I was addressing labelling of AcStyles's subsequent point on the matter as fallacious, which is what I'll get to now.



Oh wow. You've actually made it quite clear that you understand the form of the fallacy, so it truly amazes me how bad you are at spotting it. In case you need reminding, here's the point ACStyles made in question (the one you addressed):

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
Proof of that? Considering he lead several powerful Dark Jedi, was hunted by High Inquisitor Tremayne for his power and the Emperor even valued his power. PLUS he gets the VotJ to boost him yet still gets beat by Neophyte Kyle Katarn. Try Again, Shit Stain

How is AcStyles asserting that Jerec is strong in the force simply because there's no proof that he isn't? Perhaps what's confusing you is how he asked Sexy to provide proof for his claim (which he was perfectly in the right to do; Sexy made a claim without providing proof), but in case you didn't notice, there's more to his point than just that, and he then goes on to provide proof for his claim . He doesn't simply claim that Jerec is strong in the force because there's no proof that he isn't.



Again, I really didn't realise that someone could incorrectly spot the negative proof fallacy to such a degree.

You yourself seem to know that it takes the form "A is true because there's no proof that A isn't true", yet you still don't seem able to spot the fallacy, so honestly, all I can suggest is paying more attention in your argumentation classes.

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
Wow, just wow Nai, I find this VERY hilarious, I offered this explanation to YOU in a previous topic (Ulic vs. Exile) as to why Kun apparently has any real skill in the lightsaber department as compared to the greats, and what did you do? You basically said it was dumb and bullshit. Now your trying to use it...as I said hilarious.


I said that it was dumb and bullshit because you simply assumed that the only way Kun could have gained some slightest hint of lightsaber skill is via his force powers because he "didn't even complete his lightsaber training" as you put it. This while consequently ignoring that his own master, whom he defeated, served as lightsaber instructor of the Order on Ossus.

Now what is it you want to tell us ? That Kun as a padawan already exceeded a 600 year old Jedi master in terms of force mastery or that the guy who didn't finish his lightsaber training had amassed enough lightsaber skill to defeat the TOTJ Jedi Orders lightsaber instructor ?



I love how you consequently ignore the reason for Kas'im stating that. Somebody well trained in lightsaber combat can pick his next move from a greater array of possible movements thereby overwriting the force based anticipation skills of his opponent.

Yet there is a scene in the training sessions between Bane and Kas'im where Kas'im pulls a movement out (jumping and trying to strike Bane) that he never used before yet Bane, because of his force powers, was still able to forsee that move and react on it when Kas'im thought he would catch Bane off-guard.

So what do you want to tell us with that "argument" ?

a) Because you don't know what styles Kun did learn (and going by the fact that Vodo served as lightsaber instructor in the Jedi's main training facility this could be basic knowledge in all styles), you can't tell us how many movements he can possibly anticipate.

b) Not that this matters because Bane was capable of anticipating movements that he had never seen before because of his force mastery, meaning that this entire crap holds no ground.

c) Would that premise be another advantage for Kun because, as you might have noticed, he doesn't only use an exotic weapon but he uses it with a unique style which features intensity and length alternation of his blades in combat. Which would give him a broad array of movement possibilities among them the ability to wield his double-bladed lightsaber around like a normal one.




Oh...what a fallacious attempt to use logic. A Sith will use his dark emotions to boost himself in terms of combat. A Jedi can archieve the same thing by resting deep within the force. Demonstrated by Darsha Assent in her last duel with Darth Maul.



Holy crap, Styles.

a) Bane himself notices that Kas'im did hold back in their training sessions, so Bane himself didn't know everything that Kas'im had to offer.

b) Can you please explain to me how Bane was able to drive Kas'im back because logically Kas'im also knew Bane's entire movement patterns inside out as he TAUGHT them to Bane.

Right answer: Bane was superior to Kas'im in terms of the force hence he was capable of driving him back first.



Lmao. No, Styles. Since the story itself proofs that Bane was capable of following moves he had never seen before. He had no problem anticipating one single blade in combat using his force powers (regardless of how many styles / forms were used). He had problems with a double-bladed lightsaber as Kas'im did explain to him because he tried to focus on both blades at once. That problem was eliminated through the training sessions with Kas'im. But in their final duel Kas'im switched to dual wielding. Because of that Bane now had to try to anticipate the movements of two unconnected blades.

But you still failed to notice that, despite of that, Bane still made it back to the entrance of the temple without Kas'im getting past his defence. Had he not practiced with Kas'im, his lightsaber master would still not have owned him. Instead he would have been driven back through the entire duel with the outcome of the fight (Bane owning Kas'im with force powers) would have stayed the same.



Great Styles. As you're about to spit out assumptions (which follow below) you might allow me to do the same: Why did Yoda use Ataru ? The correct answer is because he lacked reach (because of his small size) and natural agility (because of his age). Do you think that can also be said about a 600 year old Jedi Master who's only around one metre tall ? Yes ? Than their is a very high possibility that Vodo actually used Ataru.



Which doesn't matter because Kun's blade doesn't work like an ordinary double-blade.



WTF ? So because Ventress uses joint curved hilts she's suddenly using a unique style ? Hilarious. Aside of that some facts for starters: Ventress only received a few years of training from a guy that left the Jedi Order. I wonder how this gives her compareable lightsaber mastery to somebody who was trained by one of the (if not the main) lightsaber instructor of the Order in his time. Then he has, as you confirmed herself, force powers far surpassing that of little Asajj (enabling him to be faster, stronger and to anticipate more movements) and of course he uses a weapon and a style which make him completely unpredictable (far away from just using a double-blade). How easily do you think Mace would be able to cope with that, eh ?



I guess you forgot some small differences here. Kun's lightsaber is equipped with ability to adjust the blade length and it's also equipped with the ability to alter the blades intensity from "deadly weapon" to "ordinary light beam". That gives him quite more possibilities to wield his blade around in comparison to Shado Vao.



Lmao. I guess you somehow missed the fact that everbody who experienced Kun's lightsaber style took this knowledge to the grave with him. Yoda is not even remotely familiar with Kun's weapon and the corresponding style as Kun's weapon is not an ordinary double-blade and Kun's style therefore is not limited to the possibilities a normal wielder of this weapon has. Aside of that taking Kun's own power in the force into consideration I doubt that Yoda has any chance of making "short work" of him. Especially not when having to deal with an expert duellist like Dooku at the very same time.

I think you don't get the point. Despite being confronted with a lightsaber style completely unfamiliar to him that totally flooded his own anticipation abilities, Bane still managed to survive Kas'ims onslaught long enough to get his ass back to the entrance of the temple.



Wrong, Styles.
Kun was noted to be a "master swordsman" when using a single weapon and it's perfectly stated that the invention of his new weapon and the corresponding style did make him an even better duellist. So he obviously mastered his form. Aside of that you must be quite an idiot: He designed that weapon so how can he not be a master of it. God damn it.



Which doesn't matter since he, unlike other DBL wielders, can utilize the weapon like a normal lightsaber because he can switch the intensity of the blade to that of a normal lightbeam.



Which still doesn't matter because, as I may point out once again, he utterly destroyed an "experienced duellist" who served as lightsaber instructor for the Jedi Order with that very special style. Aside of the fact that, by using it, his abilities as a lightsaber combatant were raised up from "master level" to whatever level he reached.



Huh ? He just brought them there, infused some Dark Side knowledge into them by letting them being possessed by Dark Side spirits and then send them off to kill the other Jedi Masters. That hardly did cost him much time.



Urm. The DSSB refers to their entire duel and not to the part of it in which Kun used his single blade which again doesn't matter since he can also use his double blade like a regular lightsaber. It simply offers more possibilities to him to distract and confuse his opponent so it effectively made him better in the art of lightsaber combat. You can't simply argue around this.



This is getting particulary boring. He already was a "master" with the single blade. He also mastered the art of wielding two blades. And you simply missed the fact that the style Kun invented was "his own form", correct ?



Yes. I wanted to keep things as simple as possible so that even you might be able to understand what I'm saying. But as it seems I didn't make it simple enough for you to understand. I'm awfully sorry for that.



So what ?



Ah, well...
"The archway collapsed in a shower of stone, burying Kas'im beneath tons of rock and mortar. A second later the rest of the roof caved in, drowning out the Twi'lek's dying screams with a deafening rumble."

Yes. The temple entrace collapsed and then the rest of the temples roof came down. That hardly equates tearing the entire building down.



Wow. So he scared a bunch of weaklings and killed one of them ? Impressive. He survived deadly poison ? Like Ulic Qel-Droma before joining the Dark Side ? Impressive. Yet still nothing to put him even remotely close to Exar "I own Jedi Masters for fun" Kun.



Oh great. What source would it be that proof Nick Gillard wrong, huh ? The RotS movie, showing that Anakin and Obi-Wan are equal ? The novelization that says that they are equal ? I'd really like to see that.

And nice way to produce lies, shit head. That quote is not coming from Anderson but from Tom Veitch and it can't be found in a SW Insider because it was directly given from Tom by Lightsnake. Any more lies you have for us ?



Urm. What ? We see him cutting his way through an entire army of Vong together with Jaina and Luke. But nevermind. And yes. Mara made him look like a "b1tch" by assaulting him in a Dark tunnel when he was unable to sense or see her. Wohoo. And who lived after that duel ? Oh...right...



Which is nice but doesn't change the fact that master in one particular force technique doesn't makes you an uber force user. In fact, Bastila was still a Padawan just in case you didn't notice it.

Oh. My "feelings" ? I was merely pointing out that you've managed to expose yourself to ridicule by typing down those lines, kid. Don't take it personally. Your complete lack of education, taste and manners is simply amusing me.



Oh he had the power from the VotJ which enabled him to wipe out life with a single thought ? So he wasn't able to think "Die" and because of that had his ass handed to him by Kyle Katarn ?

Wait. What actually happened (storyline overwriting in game happenings) is that Kyle used some wall of light attack against him, cut Jerec's connection to the force off and that did cut Jerec - who had no force powers any longer - down with a single strike. So thanks for proving that Jerec when being unable to touch the force, was also unable to wield a lightsaber any longer. Somehow that doesn't fit your "he was powerful but sucked with a lightsaber" premise, dude because he wasn't powerful any longer when Katarn killed him.



The interesting part here is actually that she doesn't even raise her weapon to defend herself. She just holds that vibroblade in her hand and then Sion cuts it off. Hardly proof for your assumption that she sucked in lightsaber combat ?



Wow. Saying that the Exile didn't pathetically suck in lightsaber combat now means that she would be able to beat Ulic Qel-Droma. One must love your attempts to assume things out of the blue. You should stop smoking joints before trying to debate, kid.



LMAO, Styles.
Kun did eliminate pretty much every Jedi Master that we see in the comics (Thon excepted) with apparent ease. So what do you want to tell me ? That there were other individuals more powerful than the Jedi Orders spokesman ? That there were people better with a lightsaber than the Jedi Orders lightsaber instructor ? Or to make that more precise: People so much better than those two that they can take it up with Kun who utterly destroyed people like that.

And you did notice that the TOTJ comics happen roughly 40 years before KotoR ? I wonder how powerful Kavar has been as a child or Vrook and Kreia as teenagers.

Not to mention that Vodo did directly put Kun above Nomi Sunrider who happens to be one of the most powerful people alive after Kun was finished. Really.



Oh my. How would Yoda crush Dooku while having to fend of Kun at the same time ? I said that he would be able to deal with Dooku rather fast (seen in AotC and Dark Rendevouz) if it would be just Dooku he has to fight against. Which isn't the case here.

Originally posted by nmensfinest
How is AcStyles asserting that Jerec is strong in the force simply because there's no proof that he isn't? Perhaps what's confusing you is how he asked Sexy to provide proof for his claim (which he was perfectly in the right to do; Sexy made a claim without providing proof), but in case you didn't notice, there's more to his point than just that, and he then goes on to provide proof for his claim . He doesn't simply claim that Jerec is strong in the force because there's no proof that he isn't.


Because he simply passed down the assumption that Jerec was powerful first and then, after asking Sexy to proof that assumption wrong, he came up with something that - according to his view - made Jerec a powerful force user.

So he did commit the negative proof fallacy first and then switched to an argumentum ad ignorantiam because basing everything on his personal definition of "powerful". Which would also be fallacious.

That aside from the fact that in the situation Styles was arguing, Jerec was completly stripped from his force powers, meaning that this entire bullshit didn't make any sense from the start on.



Urm. Which was exactly what Styles was trying to do here. Or did you see him presenting any proof for Jerec being powerful in the very same situation he was actually talking about (which he couldn't have done because Jerec was completely without force powers there) before he asked Sexy to proof that assumption wrong ? No ? Thanks.

Originally posted by Gideon
In ze words of Scar: "be prepared!" Lol.

http://www.greatdreams.com/cats/scar.jpg

RAWR!!!

So this is where Nai spends his time.

Nai rarely posts here, unless it is necessary.

Misunderstanding of the Negative Proof Fallacy.

Misunderstanding of the Argument from Ignorance Fallacy.

Failing to recognise that both Fallacies are one in the same within the context you're using them.

Confusing an Unsupported Claim with the Negative Proof Fallacy.



Wow Borbarad, not bad for one post.

I thought this was a debating forum, not a psuedointellectual pissing contest..

Last time I checked, it was neither...

Right. Your argument is very convincing..

Originally posted by nmensfinest
Misunderstanding of the Negative Proof Fallacy.


Cool. I always wanted to be lectured in logic by a 13 year old kid.

Let me first point out that your take on the actual meaning of said fallacy seems to be limited to the common definition which would be "A must be right, because there is no proof that A is wrong". Which is of course correct but doesn't equate everything the negative proof fallacy consists of.

The negative proof fallacy also refers to the attempt to get rid of the burden of proof and toss it over to the opponent in a debate. Because of that every argument based on an unsupported claim automatically means that you're commiting said fallacy. Why ? Because if you simply hand in an unsupported claim on which you base an argument (which Styles did) you must first assume that there is need to come up with proof for your assumption. If somebody wants to argue the argument based on your unsubstantiated claim, he has to proof said claim wrong first - at least this is what you would expect him to do. Thereby you commited a reversal of the burden of proof and therefore a negative proof fallacy.

Got that now ?



Again. Limited view on the subject. The "argumentum ad ignorantiam" is commited if one of the people participating in the debate argues out from a position of ignorance. This "ignorance" might consist of personal belief, opinion, conviction or personal definitions. In this case Styles was trying to argue out the rather ignorant position that everybody is sharing his personal definition of the word "powerful".



Actually. Nope. They are the same within the context you're using them, meaning only the standard (and rather limited) definitions.

Because going by this, the Negative Proof Fallacy would be:
"A" must be right, because there is no proof that "A" is wrong. or
"A" must be wrong, because there is no proof that "A" is right.

The argumentum ad ignorantiam works by assuming that a premise is right because it hasn't been proven wrong (or vice versa) which would be the exact same thing like the Negative Proof Fallacy with the little difference that the argumentum ad ignorantiam is personalized.

In this case Styles listed things making Jerec appear powerful to himself which was enough for him to label Jerec as powerful for all other people in this debate. Argumentum ad ignorantiam.

The correct thing to do would have been to define the word "powerful" first. Yet the only viable definition for this particular situation here would have been that "powerful" must refer to a powerlevel equal to or above that of Exar Kun. And Styles would have needed to present proof once again for the person in the examples he listed matching that definition.



See above. Can't be done because writing down an unsupported claim and basing an argument on it is equal to the negative proof fallacy.



Can't say the same thing about your post which was completely redundant. Sorry.

Firstly Borbarad, don't think people can't see through your sneaky excuses, you can b1tch about not using the standard definition all you want, but it really means nothing when your own words prove you're full of sh1t:

N-Man: You yourself seem to know that it takes the form "A is true because there's no proof that A isn't true", yet you still don't seem able to spot the fallacy, so honestly, all I can suggest is paying more attention in your argumentation classes.

Borbarad: Urm. Which was exactly what Styles was trying to do here. Or did you see him presenting any proof for Jerec being powerful in the very same situation he was actually talking about (which he couldn't have done because Jerec was completely without force powers there) before he asked Sexy to proof that assumption wrong ? No ? Thanks.

So nice try, but your own words prove you're lying, considering you directly responded to the 'standard and limited' definition, and straight up confused it with an unsupported claim.

I'd also like to point out that you're still mixing up your fallacies, this time Argument from Ignorance with Argument from Personal Belief. Argument from Ignorance basically mirrors the Negative Proof Fallacy as you yourself have acknowledged and seem to know, but what you're thinking of however, where you base one of your premises off of your own personal opinion, is the Argument from Personal Belief Fallacy.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Right. Your argument is very convincing..

Simply because debating is used in the forum doesn't make it centred around it. In essence, it's a forum dedicated to arena type battles between Star Wars characters, that's it, not an actual debating forum. Seeing as you're hardly an intellectual powerhouse I can see why you'd have trouble with this.

Originally posted by nmensfinest
Simply because debating is used in the forum doesn't make it centred around it. In essence, it's a forum dedicated to arena type battles between Star Wars characters, that's it, not an actual debating forum. Seeing as you're hardly an intellectual powerhouse I can see why you'd have trouble with this.
In fact this is a debating forum, as basically everyone either offers up an argument for something, or they get ridiculed and don't type again. Of course, it's not OFFICIALLY a debating forum but I didn't realize an intellectual extraordinare such as yourself needed to have everything spelled out. As for me "hardly" being an intellectual powerhouse, after reading your posts, you are "hardly" in any position to make that kind of judgement with your credibility(or lack thereof), and trolling skills.

Originally posted by nmensfinest
Firstly Borbarad, don't think people can't see through your sneaky excuses, you can b1tch about not using the standard definition all you want, but it really means nothing when your own words prove you're full of sh1t:

So nice try, but your own words prove you're lying, considering you directly responded to the 'standard and limited' definition, and straight up confused it with an unsupported claim.

Ah. Let's see. Because your small brain, dear kid, is apparently not capable of grasping what I just typed down, I must be a liar and full of shit. My so called "sneaky excuse" is actually "education" or "reading comprehension" or "logic" - all things that 13 year old schoolboys (that would be you) seem to lack in comparison to 25 year old University students (that would be me).

Yes. I did respond to the limited definition because I tried to force something into the empty head of a person who was using said definition and nothing else. But let me just take you through it step-by-step.

1) Fact one: Styles posted an unsupported claim ("Jerec was powerful"
2) Conclusion one: Because Styles didn't feel the need to post something that supported said claim, he must have viewed his own claim as fact already.
3) Conclusion two: Because he didn't feel the need to post some supportive statements for his claim I can only conclude two possible reasons: Either he assumed that we would all accept it as truth anyways because it matches his personal belief (argumentum ad ignorantiam) or he assumed that this will simply remain as viable claim unless somebody proofs it wrong (Negative Proof Fallacy)
4) Fact two: Before (even it's just in the sentence before) he provided support for his claim he already asked Sexy to proof him wrong.
5) Conclusion three: Because of asking somebody to proof him wrong, before providing support for your claim, he - at least in the text, I can't look into his head - commited the Negative Proof Fallacy by assuming he's right before somebody was proving him wrong. If he had reasons to do so doesn't matter here because those reasons weren't part of the debate before he asked others to proof him wrong.

And once again. I simply tried to explain to you what other examples of a Negative Proof Fallacy exists because, as it seems, you are only able to recognize one if somebody types it down in form of the actual example. So in this case: "Because you can't proof that Jerec wasn't powerful, he was powerful".



I'd like to point out that you're still not knowing what you're talking about. Did you even read what I typed down before sharing your lack of logic with us ?

The "argument from personal belief" fallacy is a subcategory of the "argumentum ad ignorantiam" because it works in a similar fashion "Because you can't proof my personal belief wrong, it must be right" or in this specific case "Because you can't proof my definition of powerful wrong, it must be correct." Absolutely stunning that a mental high flyer like yourself wasn't capable of figuring that one out.

I could also have written down that this was a Fallacy of Presumption, which would be the next higher category.



I guess you meant . Because somebody did apparently eat your brain before you started posting and, considering your post following the one I quoted, he finished his work there.

Oh wow. This guy just loves his long posts now, doesn't he?



Firstly, why exactly did you leave this out of what you quoted:

N-Man: You yourself seem to know that it takes the form "A is true because there's no proof that A isn't true", yet you still don't seem able to spot the fallacy, so honestly, all I can suggest is paying more attention in your argumentation classes.

Borbarad: Urm. Which was exactly what Styles was trying to do here. Or did you see him presenting any proof for Jerec being powerful in the very same situation he was actually talking about (which he couldn't have done because Jerec was completely without force powers there) before he asked Sexy to proof that assumption wrong ? No ? Thanks.


It's quite unnecessary, and I can only assume you did it so that the fact that you're a contradictory dumbass that doesn't know the difference between the negative proof fallacy and an unsupported claim wasn't made any more obvious.

Secondly, you can b1tch about my brain being small until the cows come home, but you can't change what you wrote down, which is quite clear, as can be seen above, specifically what's put in bolds. You outright confused the negative proof fallacy with an unsupported claim, you really can't argue against this; it's there in black and white.



ROFL! Clearly someone can't get over the whole age thing, and clearly someone doesn't quite understand how ages (specifically) on an internet forum doesn't mean jack. Now are you done boasting about being a 25 year old University student that spends a bit too much time discussing fictional Star Wars characters on an internet board, or not? Now really, the fact that the best thing you can attack is my age, and not actually my post says a lot about how weak your argument is.

Also, I'd suggest making sense the next time you start bringing ages into this, as it's pretty clear that by 'sneaky excuse', I'm referring to something that was stated (by yourself), which 'reading comprehension' wouldn't exactly come under, as reading comprehension is defined as the understanding of what's being said, not what's being said itself, so you labelling that as such is testament to the fact that age means little, and that you're a dumbass.



Unconvincing excuses aside (as they're irrelevant), you still contradicted yourself, so all I can say to you my friend is: unlucky, but you're still dumb, sorry.



Borbarad, I honestly don't see why you waste your time with these long responses, because in case you didn't know, when it comes to your posts, the longer they are, the more flaws they contain.

Again, you're mixing up your fallacies. I feel no need to fully repeat myself, but any experienced debater would know that what you're describing as the argument from ignorance fallacy isn't the actual fallacy, and seeing as we both know that you're just going to constantly disagree and reply post after post i really don't see the why I should continue this with you.

Again, wrong. The negative proof fallacy works by assuming you're right because nobody can prove you're wrong. Assuming you're right simply before being proven wrong is not the negative proof fallacy.

So yet again, you've blabbered on and on and have still failed to prove your point.



Already dismantled.



Firstly, if anything was possibly lacking in that post, it would be a lack of knowledge, and not a lack of logic. It truly amazes me how these simply concepts never cease to confuse you.



Still wrong my college friend, they're completely different fallacies, that belong to the same family of fallacies. Neither fallacy is a subcategory of the other.



That's great.



Wow, that was just hilarious, although too bad it made about zero sense given that your little joke would have made me the victim of Lecter and not Lecter himself. I'd suggest obtaining the lost diadem of Ravenclaw before coming up with any more of these 'witty' remarks.

Do you enjoy provoking and being wtfpwned by Nai?

Originally posted by nmensfinest
Firstly, why exactly did you leave this out of what you quoted:

N-Man: You yourself seem to know that it takes the form "A is true because there's no proof that A isn't true", yet you still don't seem able to spot the fallacy, so honestly, all I can suggest is paying more attention in your argumentation classes.

Borbarad: Urm. Which was exactly what Styles was trying to do here. Or did you see him presenting any proof for Jerec being powerful in the very same situation he was actually talking about (which he couldn't have done because Jerec was completely without force powers there) before he asked Sexy to proof that assumption wrong ? No ? Thanks.


It's quite unnecessary, and I can only assume you did it so that the fact that you're a contradictory dumbass that doesn't know the difference between the negative proof fallacy and an unsupported claim wasn't made any more obvious.

Dude. You really start annoying me with your lack of comprehension. I'll type it down in short here:

Styles: "Jerec is powerful"
Sexy: "No. He isn't !"
Styles: "Proof ?!?!?"

Now just because he didn't explicitly state that "Jerec is powerful because there is no proof that he isn't powerful" you seem to be unable to grasp the actual fallacy. What he did still is absolutely commiting a negative proof fallacy because he asked for proof that Jerec isn't powerful which implies exactly that he was assuming that Jerec was powerful because there wasn't proof for the contrary.

And once again. Styles tried to shift the burden of proof (original on his side) over to Sexy's side of the argument. This is a reversed burden of proof which is defined as "Negative Proof Fallacy" or in some cases as "Shift the Burden of Proof fallacy".
Initially Styles came up with an Ipsedixitism ("He said so, so it must be correct" = unsupported assertion) but in the very instance he asked Sexy to proof his assertion wrong, he turned it into a Negative Proof fallacy - just because of his question.



It's nice that I can't argue against this. Especialy since this is what I just did - sucessfully. Because you don't know what you're talking about.



Oh boy. Yes. Someone can't get over the age thing. Considering you have written two paragraphs about this I guess this someone is you, correct ? But thanks for proving my assertion right that you lack reading comprehension. I didn't attack your age but your lack of knowledge, education and reading comprehension which might be caused by the fact that you are pretty young. Of course I could also say that you a wannabe intellectual, who doesn't know what he's talking about and enjoys trolling because of being the pathetic noob he is, if you don't like me to blame it on the age. I'd chose the "I'm too young to make sense" explanation if I were you but this might be a matter of personal taste. Some people would rather be idiots than...erm young.



Oh yes. I contradict myself. Hmm. Where exactly did that happen ? You might not be aware of this but a contradiction happens if I make a comment / assertion that states the contrary of a point I previously made. Shall we do a little reality check ? I told you this is a negative proof fallacy and after this I explained to you why it is a negative proof fallacy. Care to show me where the contradiction happened ? And if you're already at it you can also tell me where the "excuse" happened.



Because I don't want you to stay as uninformed as you obviously are. You consider that a waste of time ? Fine with me. One stupid moron more or less doesn't make much difference.



Woohoo. An "experienced" debater ? Can you find one for me ? Or let me put it in other words: Can you try to find me an "experienced debater" who has not a single clue on how the classifaction of logical fallacies works, in other words: A being fitting that category of yours able to share your personal oppinion on the matter ?



The point is that Styles did ask for proof that his assertion was wrong. Got that now ? With that question he crossed the line between the unsupported claim and the negative proof fallacy because before asking for proof to the contrary he must have had the idea that he's perfectly right because there was no proof to the contrary. Otherwise his question doesn't make any sense.



Like to do another reality check with me ? My original point was that asking to proof his unsupported assertion wrong was fallacious. You tried to dispute that. Coming back to the original point, you seem to agree with me and now you just want to discuss what fallacy he commited and not that he commited a fallacy. And this, my friend, actually means that I was perfectly right from the start on and that you either agreed with me from the start on or that I conviced you I was right with my basic assertion. But somehow I failed ? I'd really like to see your definition of "failure" in this case. Hint: It's not a synonym for "success".



Oh yes. You "dismantled" that. How did you do that ? By ignoring the point or by coming up with red herrings about me not having an argument because I attack your age ? Impressive.



Nope. It was a lack of logic. Because you are an idiot and because you're posting here you did draw the false conclusion that all people posting here must be idiots like you. See. A clear lack of logic. Had I written "lack of knowledge" I would have suggested that you're knowledge is just a little bit incomplete. And I didn't want to do that. Because imho your "knowledge" is completely non-existant - at least when it comes to this topic.



Erm. Wrong. Most fallacies are difined as special cases of other fallacies. The "argument from personal belief" is a special case of the "argumentum ad ignorantiam" which is in turn a special case for the "Negative Proof fallacy" which is in turn a special case of the "Burden of Proof fallacy". You don't believe me ?

"A" is true because there is no proof that "A" isn't true

Here your definition of the "Negative Proof fallacy". Now some other definitions.

"A" is true because it hasn't been proven that "A" isn't true.
"A" is true because it hasn't been proven otherwise.
"A" is true because I say so

= Argument ad ignorantiam
= Shifting the Burden of Proof
= Ipsedixitism

And not the most precious thing. Your suggestion "argument from personal belief":

"A" is true because I can't belief that "A" isnt't true.

And now let's review this nice "discussion" we just had: While I said that Styles was simply assuming he was right because there was no proof to the contrary, based on the fact that he asked Sexy to proof him wrong, you, on the other handside, simply assume that Styles would in no way able to belief that Jerec wasn't powerful ? This is great. So while I go by what was posted here, you developed the ability to look into Styles' head to figure out what he was thinking and hence are able to state that he was commiting the fallacy to argue out of his personal, unchangeable belief. Nice try, dude.

So um...Yoda dies? Hard?
I love how people basically ignore AOTC with Dooku's and Yoda's duel in favor of Dark Rendezvous.

Dooku and Kun

Originally posted by Pyron_Knight
So um...Yoda dies? Hard?
I love how people basically ignore AOTC with Dooku's and Yoda's duel in favor of Dark Rendezvous.

Nothing has been ignored, Pyron. Intent plays a primary role in determining how much effort a combatant is putting into a duel, and even if one is willing to ignore the obvious affection and -- indeed -- gentility which Yoda handled Count Dooku in their confrontation on Geonosis (during the 'Force fight', Yoda only made one attack that could be construed as an offensive maneuver, which was the final deflection of the Count's Sith lightning, which convinced the Sith Lord to promptly end the contest), one cannot ignore Yoda's own statement: "Captured, Dooku must be!" -- the Jedi Master was clearly unwilling to slay his beloved, former pupil. That he would later journey to Vjun, willingly entering a trap of which he had prior knowledge on a planet that functioned as a Confederacy stronghold, a planet steeped in the dark side of the Force, where Dooku's power would be at its apex, is testimony to how far he would be willing to go and to sacrifice for the merest possibility of converting the Count back to the light side. On both occasions, he opted for any reason or excuse to not kill Dooku (even going to so far as to save Kenobi and Skywalker from the falling column, despite the fact that Yoda was skeptical regarding Skywalker's status as the Chosen One, and that he told Obi-Wan that, despite how close was to him, he would sacrifice him without a second's hesitation if the war would end 'a day sooner').

With all due respect, my friend, it's not up for debate.

I'm not debating Dooku is above Yoda even on Yoda's level. What I'm debating is that they're in the same ballpark as demonstrated in AOTC. But try and say that and people will shout "but Dark Rendezvous!!! Yoda beat Dooku while Yoda was weakened and distracted and while Dooku was pumped up!!"
They make this molehill into a mountain and say that Dooku is almost nothing to Yoda in any department.