New Jedi Order Grey Jedi?

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MasterAshenVor
Hay i was reading Wookieepedia.com and was reading about the Grey Jedi...and the Polentium or something like that....it sayed that Luke Skywalker's New Jedi Order followed the teachings more of the GREY JEDI and not the Lightside Jedi of OBI WAN \ Yoda


Is it true that the New Jedi Order is all but a bunch of Grey Jedi?

DigiMark007
Possibly, but it might be faulty info. They can marry and have more attachments than the Old Republic Days....so yeah, there's some differences.

And by the very definition, Grey Jedi would be...."grey". Meaning, how do you define the line between "light side" and "grey"? You don't. It's all so subjective, that coming to any sort of a consensus would be ridiculous to attempt.

Hell, Jacen Solo blurs some lines between Light and Dark, first at the end of the Vong cycle and now in the more recent arcs as well. And if that line isn't certain, anything more complex than that would be harder.

So yeah, different in how they run a few things. But beware of labels...it limits understanding.

wink

Darth Hord
They do have less restriction such as being able to contact their friends and family something you couldn't do before. Plus you are allowed to marry which wasn't allowed before or otherwise Anakin and Padme wouldn't need to hide their relationship.

Ushgarak
I see the term "Grey Jedi", I immediately react "fanboy nonsense."

There is no such damn thing as grey Jedi. It's a bunch of nonsense made up by clueless fans who think that by taking the best of both worlds they are building something superior. It's a very adolescent thing to do.

The Light Side are the good guys in George Lucas' creation. To try and be anything else is setting aside these basic principles of being a good guy.

Tengu
lol, ahh the good 'ol days of arguing this topic... i think it was me vs. Janus, Fohl, Ush. i made a good little run i must say.

Either way, while it sounds like a good idea, and their are actual Jedi that have tried to reach such a pinnacle, it isnt possible, nor would Lucas allow it being that he runs with the good guys/bad guys philosophy. Wookiepedia is a used-maintained site, meaning they can put alot of things up there. In one article it says Kyle Katarn is better swordsman than Luke, which is enough for me that i dont count it as a very creidble source.

KingDubya
Hmm... I believe the term "Grey Jedi" was used somewhere in the context of KotOR 2 to describe Jolee Bindo (under description of Bindo's Band), but I'm not entirely sure.

Then, the Wookiepedia entry mentions Tyvokka describing Qui-Gon as a "gray jedi", which it says is from The Stark Hyperspace War. I have not personally read these books, so I can't back it up with my own knowledge.

DigiMark007
Originally posted by Tengu
lol, ahh the good 'ol days of arguing this topic... i think it was me vs. Janus, Fohl, Ush. i made a good little run i must say.

Either way, while it sounds like a good idea, and their are actual Jedi that have tried to reach such a pinnacle, it isnt possible, nor would Lucas allow it being that he runs with the good guys/bad guys philosophy. Wookiepedia is a used-maintained site, meaning they can put alot of things up there. In one article it says Kyle Katarn is better swordsman than Luke, which is enough for me that i dont count it as a very creidble source.

Nuh-uh. Kyle pwns. That's solid fact. Give me a Dark Forces battle map and a few days to shake off the rust, and Luke's hand won't be the only cyborg part he has.

no expression







....also, yeah, not too reliable as a site.

Captain REX
Ah, good old Dark Forces, how I love thee...

...and Gray Jedi don't exist. If you try to implement teachings from the Dark Side, you will go to the Dark Side. That's pretty much how it works.

Gray Jedi also lead to that Revolving Door policy that Ush is such a fan of in EU. No, I'm not being sarcastic, Ush really loves that policy...

ThoraxeRMG
I hope my title was the cause of this. big grin

yogert
where do gray jedi not fit into the star wars universe?



Originally posted by ThoraxeRMG
I hope my title was the cause of this. big grin

Ha!

MasterAshenVor
Grey Jedi do Exist my Friend....AND STOP IT WITH THE ITS EU CRAP THIS IS A EU SECTION!

0°Mandalore°0
I do not consider them to be Grey Jedi. Grey Jedi do not care for justice and peace of the galaxy, but they don't hurt or kill people neither.

Luke's New Order actually HELPS people in need and are allies of the New Republic. They care for the peace and justice in the galaxy, so I think it would be wrong to say they are Grey Jedi.

The only difference is that they are allowed to have emotional attractions and to marry.

Darth Hord
SEX BABY thumbup

0°Mandalore°0
Originally posted by Darth Hord
SEX BABY thumbup

smokin' Oh yeah

Ushgarak
Which is simply a contradiction with the canon established by the movies- that such attachments lead to the Dark Side. It's a huge error.

'Attachments = Dark Side' is not some trivial point- it is the central theme of the entire prequel trilogy. If you have an attachment you are afraid to lose it. Fear leads to the Dark Side. Yoda said all this in the films, GL said it in interview, how much more bloody clear does it need to be?

Captain REX
I suggest lobotomy, followed by hypnopaedia and a high-protein breakfast.

Melcórë
No matter who said it, "Attachments = Dark Side" is a very simple way to look at things - even if it is true - and people will not always accept it. Just like Anakin in the films....

DigiMark007
Nothing = the Dark Side. It's all about application of principles toward good or evil. The principles themselves (like attachments) aren't intrinsically moral one way or another.

That was (originally) Jacen Solo's point in the new books...and it's relatively true imo. But then he went all evil and stuff in other ways.

yogert
I don't think its all about the poo tang.I think its about what each gray jedi belives in I mean it not like you can just quit the jedi some jedi want to learn more about the force some jedi wanna get laid and some jedi are sick of the councils shit
take jolee for example he was all of those things.

Ushgarak
None of what is said counters what I said above.

And digi, by '= the Dark Side= I mean leads to it. That, incidentally, cannot be contested or argued. It is set and unalterable fact.

Incidentally, the reason it is pretty simple is because it is absolutely meant to be that way. Star Wars is not actually a very complicated setting and those that indulge in nonsense auch as 'Grey' Jedi are probably in the wrong sci-fi setup.

yogert
What?

I was ust sayin it wold be alittle more realistic if jedi rejected the order and didnt go on a killing spree. i mean the jedi them selves chose if they become good or evil not the jedi order

Ushgarak
This is very true and I would say it is unnecessary to automatically equate 'not Jedi' with 'insanely evil'. But again, that might be getting into complications that Star Wars as a setting is not really greatly interested in.

Seeing as there is this general vibe that Jedi = always trying to do the right thing, then leaving them becomes suspect by default.

I would imagine that expulsion is the least of the problems one would face if a Jedi became evil, because that would make it a Dark Sider and a threat, someone to be stopped, not just expelled.

Obi-Wan suggests in AOTC that expulsion is the kind of punishment meted out for disobedience, not evil.

yogert
What?? i stll don't unerstand.

Atticus
i honestly don't under stand please explain what you ment

The big EH
Originally posted by MasterAshenVor
Hay i was reading Wookieepedia.com and was reading about the Grey Jedi...and the Polentium or something like that....it sayed that Luke Skywalker's New Jedi Order followed the teachings more of the GREY JEDI and not the Lightside Jedi of OBI WAN \ Yoda


Is it true that the New Jedi Order is all but a bunch of Grey Jedi? actually yes

Tengu
Originally posted by Atticus
i honestly don't under stand please explain what you ment
Grey Jedi play the apathy game when it comes to picking sides, because the Sith and the jedi are in a never ending war with each other. They cant exist simply because of the playing field that there on. But, say they did exist, their actions could only be deemed right or wrong by pure opinion, which is universely what 'right' and 'wrong' is. But a gray jedi dosent neccesarily care about that, so what are the true intentions of his actions? I've argued pro-grey before, and they work for the force only, everything else comes second. And while it sounds cool, if you work for an nuetral energy field, that has no sides, you do whats good for the force not whats good for the people. So....an action that was good for the force, can be looked at as evil by the people, but it was for the good of the force, so whos right?...... for this reason alone, they cannot exist, not in Lucas' world.

if a jedi knight were ever expelled from the order, or a better way to describe it "exiled" it wouldnt be becuase he was evil, it would be a disciplinary action. Reasons for exile could be love, war crimes, unprovoked killing, etc etc. If they thought you were evil they would deal with you, if you were pissing them off, they would kick you out...make sense?

Atticus
no while thats a good point but as the jedi use it for good and the sith for evil/
power and/or order
what about other things take the first hiper drive it ran on the force not for any of those resons that was made by a non jedi or non sith( witch makes me wonder why don't people know how to use the force?)but if the rakitata can do that. what makes you think people can't stepdown from the jedi and use the force to invent study the scince of the force?(with outserching for power).
or what if you if a jedi still supported the order but did want to be an active part of the jedi he might get exiled but he won't do any harm to the order
like jolee they leave the order but still have good intentions like i said they don't really have a chioce before training

Tengu
Originally posted by Atticus
no while thats a good point but as the jedi use it for good and the sith for evil/
power and/or order
what about other things take the first hiper drive it ran on the force not for any of those resons that was made by a non jedi or non sith( witch makes me wonder why don't people know how to use the force?)but if the rakitata can do that. what makes you think people can't stepdown from the jedi and use the force to invent study the scince of the force?(with outserching for power).
or what if you if a jedi still supported the order but did want to be an active part of the jedi he might get exiled but he won't do any harm to the order
like jolee they leave the order but still have good intentions like i said they don't really have a chioce before training Then they're not technically Jedi, your either with them or your not, you cant say "i dont want to be with them but i'll cheer them on" and still call yourself a jedi. you can be a jedi and study the science of the force, it would be actually better that way, as you have hands on expeirience, as opposed to not being to feel it, or use the power. Plo Koon was one such jedi that used the force, and study the sciences as well. for that reason alot of fanboys think he can run with the best of em in the versus forum roll eyes (sarcastic)

either way tho, the Jedi and Sith are Black and white, and the Gray simply do not exist, nor could they exist functionally in the universe.

Perhaps maybe not upfront, but they dont have to continue they're training, and they can always go back back to their parents.

Atticus
true but what about jedi who dont support the counsole but still prusue good ??
but i agree with your other points

Ushgarak
Originally posted by Tengu
, their actions could only be deemed right or wrong by pure opinion, which is universely what 'right' and 'wrong' is.

NOT in Star Wars. Star Wars is a simple morality tale- good and evil, light side and dark side. Simple as that.

Again, this is ridiculous over-complication in a setting where it does not belong.

Even Jedi that do not necessarily support the Council remain Jedi, because they know that is the right thing to do. A la Qui Gon.

Darth Subjekt
Yea, but Ush, Lucas approves all EU material, and that would include the new attachment rule, or leniency of said rule. Maybe it was just because they were never taught how to deal with it. In essence, Yoda did the same in his two encounters with Dooku, (or 1 if you only care about the movies). Because of his attachment to Dooku, he let him escape and allowed the war to continue. Did Yoda go to the darkside? Not at all.

However I am quite familiar with Lucas' take on the subject that you speaking about.

0°Mandalore°0
Oh, and I'd forgotten that in KOTOR 2 you can find a robe called "Grey Jedi Robe". The info of the robe tells us Grey Jedi are the ones who act independently (out of the Order) and are tipically seen as "misguided", (though not always) and they have not necessarily fallen to the Dark Side.

Tengu
Originally posted by Ushgarak
NOT in Star Wars. Star Wars is a simple morality tale- good and evil, light side and dark side. Simple as that.

Again, this is ridiculous over-complication in a setting where it does not belong.

Even Jedi that do not necessarily support the Council remain Jedi, because they know that is the right thing to do. A la Qui Gon. and nobody is disputing that, im not at least, im saying out of generality that right and wrong is opinion, which it is.....

Ushgarak
Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
Yea, but Ush, Lucas approves all EU material, and that would include the new attachment rule, or leniency of said rule. Maybe it was just because they were never taught how to deal with it. In essence, Yoda did the same in his two encounters with Dooku, (or 1 if you only care about the movies). Because of his attachment to Dooku, he let him escape and allowed the war to continue. Did Yoda go to the darkside? Not at all.

However I am quite familiar with Lucas' take on the subject that you speaking about.

Please read the noted thread. Lucas' 'approval' is in absolutely no way at all akin to plot inclusion in his own world.

GL is absolutely stone cold clear on that rule in both interview and movies. And that rule does not simply change. The EU that fails to reflect this is simply incorrect, as it is incorrect about many things.

Your example is ridiculous in the extreme. Yoda was simply doing the right thing. Geez.

Lord Melkor
I think Qui-Gon is an example of what you call "Gray Jedi".

Some Jedi do not agree fully with the Council, but it doesn`t make them evil- perhaps they don`t like to serve the Force restrained by working with goverment, and think that Jedi Code has some flaws. But they are still considered Jedi.

Dooku was kind of "Gray" Jedi as well before he turned to the Dark Side, but this example shows how easy it is to fall for such Jedi, even experienced one.

Still, I don`t think that every Jedi that falls in love goes to Darkside, there just such a huge risk that it is prohibited. What do you think, Ush?

Lord Blaze
A little suggestion here. Imagine a Force-user who hates the Sith, and uses both Light- and Dark- side abilities to combat the whole thing. Wouldn't they fit into the category of "Gray Jedi" too?

Lord Lucien
They'd fit in to the "Paradox Jedi" category.

CadoAngelus
Originally posted by The big EH
Originally posted by MasterAshenVor
Hay i was reading Wookieepedia.com and was reading about the Grey Jedi...and the Polentium or something like that....it sayed that Luke Skywalker's New Jedi Order followed the teachings more of the GREY JEDI and not the Lightside Jedi of OBI WAN \ Yoda


Is it true that the New Jedi Order is all but a bunch of Grey Jedi? actually yes

Grey Jedi? That doesn't sound right! The term used is Unifying Force, where Sith and Jedi weren't seperate and both sides of the force could be used...as long as it wasn't for personal gain, or something like that.

"The reality is that there is only the Force. It is above such petty concepts as positive and negative, black and white, good and evil." - Darth Sidious

Lord Lucien
I think the Unifying Force, the Potentium, wasn't about "using both sides." More that, there was no inherent morality to the Force, that it was up to the individual user's morality that determined how the Force was used.

Kinda like Pokemon. There are no evil ones, just evil trainers.

mattatom
I swear this sounds like were discussing Cade in the last few posts.

CadoAngelus
Originally posted by mattatom
I swear this sounds like were discussing Cade in the last few posts.

Well, all Skywalkers had walked both sides of the force at some point in their lives, and then redeemed themselves...so perhaps the prophecy is directed at the whole Skywalker Clan.

Anakin - Vader

Luke - Served under Palpatine as well in DE

Ben - Not exactly, but when Jacen was turning, Ben followed for a brief period

Jacen Solo - Caedus

Jaina Solo - ok, but she's a solo, doesn't count really

Anakin Solo - died

Kol - not much is mentioned about him really

Nat - same as Kol

Cade - Trained under Talon for a brief period and redeemed himself

mattatom
Only read up to Legacy/LoTF and NJO. So my knowledge base is pretty small.

Red Nemesis
Does too- she fell to the DS for a while. (Almost)

Captain REX
Oh dear, why is THIS back?

You cannot use the Dark Side without falling to the Dark Side, so the argument that you can use both sides and just be chaotic neutral doesn't work with the Force.

Barringer
Originally posted by Captain REX
Oh dear, why is THIS back?

You cannot use the Dark Side without falling to the Dark Side, so the argument that you can use both sides and just be chaotic neutral doesn't work with the Force.

I blame the KOTOR games' stupid Force scale for that erroneous belief. The games act like you can do evil deeds and just balance it out by saving a bus of orphans later on.

Lord Lucien
The game does seem to be the driving force behind the conception. "Give in to your anger and hate to generate a barrage of lightning to save those orphans. And don't forget their puppies!"

CadoAngelus
Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Does too- she fell to the DS for a while. (Almost)

Lol, bit like Ben Skywalker then? or slightly more, or slightly less?

Originally posted by Captain RED
You cannot use the Dark Side without falling to the Dark Side, so the argument that you can use both sides and just be chaotic neutral doesn't work with the Force.

This is usually the idea, especially since most of the time you see someone fall they're turned by a sith who has some way to draw them in (prime example, as it's the most known, Palpatine befriending Anakin).

But, without proper guideance you won't necessarily turn to the dark side. Cade is an example, he didn't turn in legacy, he touches the dark side and toys with it, but hasn't turned. His fate is similar to the knights of the Unifying Force.

Autokrat
If I am angry at random villain X who has taken a bunch of hostages and I decide to stop him by frying his ass with lightning. Does that make me wrong? Is it righteous rage or blind evilness? It's Star Wars, so the latter is the correct answer; however I suspect that this is the question that many writers and game developers have asked themselves. Star Wars is indeed a limited setting when one gets down to it and so whenever an author tries to add some kind of moral complexity, it fails.

Captain REX
Indeed; most things where moral ambiguity shows up are not the greatest pieces of Star Wars literature ever. In fact, quite the opposite...

Cade has not fallen to the Dark Side because he is playing with it, but it looks as if he is sliding that way. He is selfish and angry and will do whatever it takes to get things his way. I won't be surprised if he falls to the Dark Side.

I agree with Barringer and Lucien, KOTOR and Jedi Outcast are driving forces here...

CadoAngelus
Originally posted by Captain REX
Indeed; most things where moral ambiguity shows up are not the greatest pieces of Star Wars literature ever. In fact, quite the opposite...

Cade has not fallen to the Dark Side because he is playing with it, but it looks as if he is sliding that way. He is selfish and angry and will do whatever it takes to get things his way. I won't be surprised if he falls to the Dark Side.

I agree with Barringer and Lucien, KOTOR and Jedi Outcast are driving forces here...

Well, Skywalkers have a tendency to do that...lol.

I believe that showing morality in characters is actually very effective, like in RotJ, when Luke is captured on the moon of endor. He confronts Vader with the prospect of turning back to the light, and Vader actually trys to avoid the subject, or pauses before replying. That shows that there is something left in him, and overall I believe thats the reason Vader kills the emperor, and obviously because he's half killing Luke...

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