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Myxplyx gets tired of superman defeating him by making him spell his name backwards and decide to make a army to take him out. So he decides to get darkseid to take superman out. He thinks about it and knows that superman will get someone to help him if he is confronted by darkseid. So he opens a gate between dc and marvel and bring 2 more powerful beings to aid him with his goal.

He decides to get thanos and morg (with the wol). Spectre finds out about this and immediately warns superman. He tells superman that the gate between marvel and dc is still open and he would need to choose 5 heros to aid him in this battle because after the 3 kill him theyre going to try and destroy dc's earth.

Superman asks

Thor
Wonderwoman (only has lasso)
Silver Surfer
Captain Marvel and
Black Adam to aid him

Will the 6 be able to take out beings with godly powers.
No prep and no bfring.

Darkseid solos. He not only doesn't need Thanos or Morg, he could beat the team if those 2 were on it.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Darkseid solos. He not only doesn't need Thanos or Morg, he could beat the team if those 2 were on it.

Not. He'd be pressed enough trying to defeat two of the six, this is overkill if he takes them on all at once. However with the other two they take the victory.

Originally posted by The Problem
Not. He'd be pressed enough trying to defeat two of the six, this is overkill if he takes them on all at once.

headshotkmc Shut the **** up, you irritating danish shithead. Judge, you don't know jackshit about comics or how to deal with people.

You honestly are that unintelligent. It's actually quite ridiculous and maybe a little unfortunate. ermm

Originally posted by The Problem
Not. He'd be pressed enough trying to defeat two of the six, this is overkill if he takes them on all at once. However with the other two they take the victory.

Wrong. A good TP domination takes care of the entire team. Or he OE's them all like he's done like IM and Supers many times.

Originally posted by The Problem
You honestly are that unintelligent. It's actually quite ridiculous and maybe a little unfortunate. ermm

**** you Judge. doped

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
Wrong. A good TP domination takes care of the entire team. Or he OE's them all like he's done like IM and Supers many times.

Well lets see. Thor has a potent TP defense, is able to absorb and redirect TP, and has his own little version of TP. Silver Surfer has a potent TP defense and a little TP of his own. Superman has a potent TP defense and his own little version of TP, and the Marvel brothers I'm unsure of.

TP isn't winning for DS against these six.

Originally posted by The Problem
Well lets see. Thor has a potent TP defense, is able to absorb and redirect TP, and has his own little version of TP. Silver Surfer has a potent TP defense and a little TP of his own. Superman has a potent TP defense and his own little version of TP, and the Marvel brothers I'm unsure of.

TP isn't winning for DS against these six.

Mr. Miracle's Tp is superior to all of thiers, and he's even said that it is nothing compared to DS. you also realize that DS is more powerful than Kalibak by far, and kalibak's Tp wtf pwned mr. miracle with GREAT ease. TP for the win. Or he just matter manips the ones who can be, like Thor, and dominates the others with Tp or OE.

Originally posted by The Problem
Well lets see. Thor has a potent TP defense, is able to absorb and redirect TP, and has his own little version of TP. Silver Surfer has a potent TP defense and a little TP of his own. Superman has a potent TP defense and his own little version of TP, and the Marvel brothers I'm unsure of.

TP isn't winning for DS against these six.

TP strong enough to dominate 3 BILLION Daxamites? I think not. That is one of the greatest telepathy feats in the history of comics.

The team becomes the new male furies of Darkseid.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
TP strong enough to dominate 3 BILLION Daxamites? I think not. That is one of the greatest telepathy feats in the history of comics.

The team becomes the new male furies of Darkseid.

Did the Daximites have any means of defending themselves as these three do?

Originally posted by The Problem
Well lets see. Thor has a potent TP defense, is able to absorb and redirect TP, and has his own little version of TP.

That certainly didn't seem to help him against the subtle manipulations of Moondragon.

Or the Goddess, for that matter.



I don't believe he's ever faced many telepaths, but I also haven't ever seen him show telepathy to any great extent. He needed Moodragon to get him into the mind-scape of the Great One.



Superman has variable telepathy defense. The only thing we are sure of is that John Stewart has a superior defense, of course.

I agree Darkseid isn't going to win against six verifiable top tiers, or even come close.

About John Stewart: If you're refering to the Fernus thing, he said that he can only maintain that for about 2 minutes before it fries his brain.

Originally posted by Desaad
I agree Darkseid isn't going to win against six verifiable top tiers, or even come close.

then you greatly underestimate Darkseid.

Originally posted by Desaad
I agree Darkseid isn't going to win against six verifiable top tiers, or even come close.
Yes he would. Odin would beat these 6 with ease and Odin and DS are very comparible in over all power. Stayne could beat these six on her own. and DS>>> Stayne.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
About John Stewart: If you're refering to the Fernus thing, he said that he can only maintain that for about 2 minutes before it fries his brain.

I am not, although that is still a good example of the kind of TP defense a GL has access to.

But no, I'm referring to his performance against Nudge in the Byrne/Claremont JLA run, who easily took over Superman but was unable to do the same to Stewart.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
then you greatly underestimate Darkseid.

No offense, sir, but I suspect I've read many more appearances of Darkseid than...well, anyone on this board! I own his every appearance, cameos included.

I love the character, I really do, but in terms of combat feats...I don't think I've ever seen him take on six verifiable top tiers and win, save for the Great Darkness Saga.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
Yes he would. Odin would beat these 6 with ease and Odin and DS are very comparible in over all power. Stayne could beat these six on her own. and DS>>> Stayne.

Give me two showings in which he has beaten that many top tiers at once.

Originally posted by Desaad
I am not, although that is still a good example of the kind of TP defense a GL has access to.

But no, I'm referring to his performance against Nudge in the Byrne/Claremont JLA run, who easily took over Superman but was unable to do the same to Stewart.

Interesting. I forgot that one. The thing he used for Fernus was some special technique the guardians made for use on the Burning martians.

Originally posted by Desaad
No offense, sir, but I suspect I've read many more appearances of Darkseid than...well, anyone on this board! I own his every appearance, cameos included.

I love the character, I really do, but in terms of combat feats...I don't think I've ever seen him take on six verifiable top tiers and win, save for the Great Darkness Saga.
He did take on several gods at one time. Nuff said.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
He did take on several gods at one time. Nuff said.

When?

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
He did take on several gods at one time. Nuff said.

Not enough said.

We know none of the specifics, of the way their interaction went, or their power level, etc.

I want something analogous to this. Just normal, every day top tiers. 6 of 'em, any 6 will do.

He's punked the LSH a few times. He beat down the entire JLA with a hologram, his pantheon killing, etc.

If DS has taken over many different Pantheons of gods....wouldn't that be a more difficult task than taking on 6 top tiers at once?

Originally posted by Desaad
That certainly didn't seem to help him against the subtle manipulations of Moondragon.

Or the Goddess, for that matter.



I don't believe he's ever faced many telepaths, but I also haven't ever seen him show telepathy to any great extent. He needed Moodragon to get him into the mind-scape of the Great One.



Superman has variable telepathy defense. The only thing we are sure of is that John Stewart has a superior defense, of course.

Was it Moondragon with the mind gem? Because Thor has resisted a Tp attack that took MD out. However if Thor doesn't use his Tp defenses, than it's CIS on his part.

You speak as if seeking the Aid of MD is a bad thing. She's an ubber lv TP.

Ok.

Originally posted by Desaad
Not enough said.

We know none of the specifics, of the way their interaction went, or their power level, etc.

I want something analogous to this. Just normal, every day top tiers. 6 of 'em, any 6 will do.

I have to find the book, but wasn't it Jove, Zeus, Highfather, ares, and odin into one being. I forget half of the shit I read. To me that counts. And His Gods are Top tier correct? He did pwn Firestorm and Orion with a wave of a hand. Two top tiers. So what's the difference in a wave of a hand, a mental domination and an OE and the fight is over.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
He's punked the LSH a few times. He beat down the entire JLA with a hologram, his pantheon killing, etc.

His pantheon feat is irrelevant as he formed a army to do so and was never shown in a battle with any significant foes.

Originally posted by The Problem
His pantheon feat is irrelevant as he formed a army to do so and was never shown in a battle with any significant foes.

The Legion is Top tiers and then some. Prodengy or how ever you spell it could beat these 6 alone. and DS pwned him supercharged with Lightning lads powers.

Originally posted by The Problem
Was it Moondragon with the mind gem? Because Thor has resisted a Tp attack that took MD out. However if Thor doesn't use his Tp defenses, than it's CIS on his part.

No, it wasn't Moodragon with the Mind Gem. This is before that whole nonsense was introduced. Moondragon had subtly taken over the planet of Ba Banis, influencing some of the higher level officers and people of the planet with her TP.

The Avengers, when called by Drax, came to stop her and she took Thor over and tried to have the others killed. She used all of her mental powers when she killed Drax - her own father - and was defeated by the Avengers.

But Thor was totally, helplessly in her thrall.



Just saying, we haven't seen him do much in the way of TP or TP protection. He's certainly called upon telepaths when telepathy is necessary, so I don't think whatever telepathy you say he has is going to come into play here very much.

Here's Powergirl stating, that the COMBINED might, of the Jla and the Jsa, WOULDN'T be enough, to truly defeat Darkseid.
http://img254.imageshack.us/my.php?image=fa5f6f19jpgorig7jk.jpg
http://img254.imageshack.us/my.php?image=fa5f6f12jpgorig2mh.jpg

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
I have to find the book, but wasn't it Jove, Zeus, Highfather, ares, and odin into one being. I forget half of the shit I read.

More like you make up half of the stuff you read.

What you are talking about is "The One", and Darkseid never came close to fighting that composite. It was made explicitly to enter the Source, and slowly came apart as the Source attacked it, until it was just Ares and Highfather at the heart of the source, "where even a god can die".





Not surprising.




Definitely not all of them. Kalibak is, most of the time, low end top tier. Other than that...? Maybe Steppenwolf.




That is two. 1/3 of 6.

I won't argue that he can beat 2.




Well, for one thing "mental domination" is a rarely used Darkseid power. In fact, it hasn't been used to great affect since Great Darkness Saga, and was only once mentioned by Mr. Miracle post-crisis.

Originally posted by The Problem
His pantheon feat is irrelevant as he formed a army to do so and was never shown in a battle with any significant foes. Yet he used his own power, to kill the gods themselfs.

Originally posted by starking
Here's Powergirl stating, that the COMBINED might, of the Jla and the Jsa, WOULDN'T be enough, to truly defeat Darkseid.
http://img254.imageshack.us/my.php?image=fa5f6f19jpgorig7jk.jpg
http://img254.imageshack.us/my.php?image=fa5f6f12jpgorig2mh.jpg

I have no doubt that Darkseid + Apokolips would own the JLA and JSA, and hopefully all of earth too.

Originally posted by Desaad
No, it wasn't Moodragon with the Mind Gem. This is before that whole nonsense was introduced. Moondragon had subtly taken over the planet of Ba Banis, influencing some of the higher level officers and people of the planet with her TP.

The Avengers, when called by Drax, came to stop her and she took Thor over and tried to have the others killed. She used all of her mental powers when she killed Drax - her own father - and was defeated by the Avengers.

But Thor was totally, helplessly in her thrall.



Just saying, we haven't seen him do much in the way of TP or TP protection. He's certainly called upon telepaths when telepathy is necessary, so I don't think whatever telepathy you say he has is going to come into play here very much.

Originally posted by Desaad
More like you make up half of the stuff you read.

What you are talking about is "The One", and Darkseid never came close to fighting that composite. It was made explicitly to enter the Source, and slowly came apart as the Source attacked it, until it was just Ares and Highfather at the heart of the source, "where even a god can die".





Not surprising.




Definitely not all of them. Kalibak is, most of the time, low end top tier. Other than that...? Maybe Steppenwolf.




That is two. 1/3 of 6.

I won't argue that he can beat 2.




Well, for one thing "mental domination" is a rarely used Darkseid power. In fact, it hasn't been used to great affect since Great Darkness Saga, and was only once mentioned by Mr. Miracle post-crisis.

God's of DS that are Top tier would include Mantis, Kalibak, Desaad, Devilance, Granny and others. And making up stuff I read. well don't be an ass hole sweatie. I have enlightened many a things on this board that others Said I made up until someone came and posted for me. As I said, I've read and forgotten more comics than the majorty combined. Do not fault me that I do not share some people's penchant for being comic book geeks and knowing every detail of every page. Thanks hon. You be sweet and don't try me. Just correct me if I'm wrong. I will respect that. Now when you have comics dating back to the 50's and have read them all, call me. And see if you remember every detail. I certainly dont', and nor do I go and look them up. If I mess up a detail, someone usually will find it and correct it. Now if DS can defeat Two top tiers with a wave of a hand, what in God's name is stopping him from three waves of a hand, an OE blast for two, or mental domination. We know he can beat above the top tiers with ease as well. So It's not a stretch to say he can beat 6 with ease.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
The Legion is Top tiers and then some. Prodengy or how ever you spell it could beat these 6 alone. and DS pwned him supercharged with Lightning lads powers.

Prodengy?

I'm going to assume you are talking about Jan Arrah, Element Lad, later Progenitor.

Anyway, at his prime he could no doubt do a lot of cool stuff, but I'm not sure if I would put Lightning Lad in his body as high as Progenitor, who had mastered his powers over billions of years. Above top tier, arguably, but by how much? Not sure.

As for the rest, Kid Quantum and MAYBE even Cosmic Boy I could give you, but Shrinking Violet...definitely not.

And he didn't beat them. He got beaten back into a Boom Tube by them.

Originally posted by starking
Yet he used his own power, to kill the gods themselfs.

Well thats not entirely genuine, is it?

We certainly know he was involved - the panel from Orion 15 makes that clear - but we don't know that h was doing that alone, and indeed his assault on Olympus would indicate that he would at least use some of his forces in the attack.

Originally posted by Desaad
Well thats not entirely genuine, is it?

We certainly know he was involved - the panel from Orion 15 makes that clear - but we don't know that h was doing that alone, and indeed his assault on Olympus would indicate that he would at least use some of his forces in the attack.

From what I've seen, None of DS forces have what it takes to attack olympus. He'd have to have done it on his own.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
God's of DS that are Top tier would include Mantis, Kalibak, Desaad, Devilance, Granny and others.

Okay, Mantis and Devilance I'll give you. Granny, Desaad, "and others"?

Most certainly not. We've seen Granny stalemated by Amanda Waller without her Mega Rod. Desaad has shown ZERO physical might. Batman beat him.




My problem is that you are FREQUENTLY wrong, and always so as to make the New Gods look better. If these were honest mistakes, I might just leave them alone, but they are regular, and shame on you for trying to pass them off to people who don't know better.

Lucky for us all I've read more issues than you.

You want me to stop being a dick about this, stop purposely misleading people.

Originally posted by Desaad
I have no doubt that Darkseid + Apokolips would own the JLA and JSA, and hopefully all of earth too. Honestly though, do you really think, that Darkseid of that era, wouldn't be able, to solo the Jla and the Jsa?

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
From what I've seen, None of DS forces have what it takes to attack olympus. He'd have to have done it on his own.

Then you haven't seen anything at all, because when he took over Olympus his army was there with him, parademons by the score. ANd he used a big bomb -- technology! - to try to destroy the place (it didn't work, though, based on its unique dimensional vibrational/magical stuff).

Originally posted by Desaad
Okay, Mantis and Devilance I'll give you. Granny, Desaad, "and others"?

Most certainly not. We've seen Granny stalemated by Amanda Waller without her Mega Rod. Desaad has shown ZERO physical might. Batman beat him.




My problem is that you are FREQUENTLY wrong, and always so as to make the New Gods look better. If these were honest mistakes, I might just leave them alone, but they are regular, and shame on you for trying to pass them off to people who don't know better.

Lucky for us all I've read more issues than you.

You want me to stop being a dick about this, stop purposely misleading people.

I haven't mislead any one *****. I really only state what I have read or found on the net doing searches. I say what I think and **** you or anyone who thinks my opinion is misleading. Your opinion is all over the board. One minute your saying DS bitched the Greeks, now your saying he did it with his forces. you see how you can be "misleading'> Um yeah. Like I thought. When it suits you. Now if you want to be a cool kid and you think bother ing me is goign to make you one, your wrong sweetie. And if i'm frequently wrong, find them all and prove it or shut the **** up.

Darkseid powers the tech on Apokolips himself. He's the power source for the whole damn planet and war machines.

Originally posted by starking
Honestly though, do you really think, that Darkseid of that era, wouldn't be able, to solo the Jla and the Jsa?

I don't really do "eras".

Would GDS Darkseid? Sure. And I view that as part of his average, and I really enjoy the story (though, probably not as much as some on this board, as the characterization was weak...but I digress).

That said, I also look at his losses and stalemates against Superman, and take that with similar weight, and that brings him down.

Darkseid doesn't have a lot of showings in which he fully dominates top tier heroes without issue. Certainly he just did in Firestorm, and thats wonderful, but I want to see more out of him before I say he's going to take on 6 top tiers, when ONE of them has previously given him trouble.

Originally posted by Desaad
Then you haven't seen anything at all, because when he took over Olympus his army was there with him, parademons by the score. ANd he used a big bomb -- technology! - to try to destroy the place (it didn't work, though, based on its unique dimensional vibrational/magical stuff).
Exactly. And what are parademons going to Gods who can whisp away on a notice and alter molecules and more. As I said, It would seem he would have done it on his own. None of them have the power to fight the greek Gods. unless the parademons can Dimensional shift and find Gods, alter matter as Gods, and come up with magical spells to combat magic. I just made an obersvation that it doesn't seem that he would have to do it on his own.

Originally posted by Desaad
Well thats not entirely genuine, is it?

We certainly know he was involved - the panel from Orion 15 makes that clear - but we don't know that h was doing that alone, and indeed his assault on Olympus would indicate that he would at least use some of his forces in the attack. I doubt his forces, where used to help bring down the gods themselfs, I beleive their purpose, was to overwhelm their base of operations(if that's the correct term).

The losses against Superman are riddled with PIS in a few cases, so they don't count for the most part.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Darkseid powers the tech on Apokolips himself. He's the power source for the whole damn planet and war machines.

That is only not true, it doesn't make sense. Apokolips existed before Darkseid existed.

Moreover, we know that he powers the Firepits, and that the Firepits are A source of energy. But why use technology at all, if has the power in him?

And do you explain the evidence that says its actually the inhabitants of Apokolips that have great power, naturally, and that the "technology" that he gives them is just an illusion, just something that allows him to control them (as revealed in New Gods v2).

Ultimately, it seems facile to say that all technology is just an extension of Darkseid. If that were true, than he wouldn't need Desaad or Metron.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
The losses against Superman are riddled with PIS in a few cases, so they don't count for the most part.

So you pick and choose what feats you believe to be acceptable to further press your argument?

Originally posted by Desaad
That is only not true, it doesn't make sense. Apokolips existed before Darkseid existed.

Moreover, we know that he powers the Firepits, and that the Firepits are A source of energy. But why use technology at all, if has the power in him?

And do you explain the evidence that says its actually the inhabitants of Apokolips that have great power, naturally, and that the "technology" that he gives them is just an illusion, just something that allows him to control them (as revealed in New Gods v2).

Ultimately, it seems facile to say that all technology is just an extension of Darkseid. If that were true, than he wouldn't need Desaad or Metron.

I thought he used metron and desaad for thier brilliant minds and great knowlege.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
I haven't mislead any one *****. I really only state what I have read or found on the net doing searches. I say what I think and **** you or anyone who thinks my opinion is misleading. Your opinion is all over the board. One minute your saying DS bitched the Greeks, now your saying he did it with his forces. you see how you can be "misleading'> Um yeah. Like I thought. When it suits you. Now if you want to be a cool kid and you think bother ing me is goign to make you one, your wrong sweetie. And if i'm frequently wrong, find them all and prove it or shut the **** up.

Sorry if me being consistent, and portraying a balanced view of the issues is too much for you.

Yeah, Darkseid "defeated" the Greeks, he took over Olympus. With the help of his forces. I don't see how anyone could doubt that, given the evidence of his forces being EVERYWHERE, and the fact that he has never attacked with the express purpose of taking over without his forces.

Unlike Thanos, Darkseid doesn't like physical confrontation. He wouldn't go and destroy a civilization for fun.

If you can't see that, you don't understand the character.

Originally posted by The Problem
So you pick and choose what feats you believe to be acceptable to further press your argument?

Forum rules. PIS is discounted, and Superman's heat vision deflecting the OE is massive PIS.

Originally posted by The Problem
So you pick and choose what feats you believe to be acceptable to further press your argument?

From what I've seen of every comic board, EVERY ONE does this. it's why people won't believe that Thor has been knocked out by a bullet and hurt by a razer. It's why people won't count Odin not being able to creme thanos and being beaten by someone being taken over by Loki. It's why people don't count Superman being knocked out by a gas station or being hit by the Toyman. PIS

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
The losses against Superman are riddled with PIS in a few cases, so they don't count for the most part.

Well, can't I argue that about any character then?

"Well, all those losses of Superman to Darkseid were PIS, so they don't count...".

Where does that leave us?

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
I thought he used metron and desaad for thier brilliant minds and great knowlege.

To build him technology, yeah.

Why would he need that, if he has all that power in himself?

Originally posted by Desaad
I don't really do "eras".

Would GDS Darkseid? Sure. And I view that as part of his average, and I really enjoy the story (though, probably not as much as some on this board, as the characterization was weak...but I digress).

That said, I also look at his losses and stalemates against Superman, and take that with similar weight, and that brings him down.

Darkseid doesn't have a lot of showings in which he fully dominates top tier heroes without issue. Certainly he just did in Firestorm, and thats wonderful, but I want to see more out of him before I say he's going to take on 6 top tiers, when ONE of them has previously given him trouble. Come on, be real. Why the hell, would wanna take those pathetic showings against Superman, into consideration. I mean, everyone of those was just...embarrasing. And not just to Ds, but to comics and the great Jack Kirby, in general. And does a few bad showings, overweigh a character's average?

Originally posted by starking
I doubt his forces, where used to help bring down the gods themselfs, I beleive their purpose, was to overwhelm their base of operations(if that's the correct term).

Certainly that didn't seem to be the case in every war he has waged that we have actually seen. And a penchant for battle is a character trait of Thanos, not Darkseid, so I see no reason to assume that he took them on by himself for any reason.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Forum rules. PIS is discounted, and Superman's heat vision deflecting the OE is massive PIS.

So I can discount any feat I choose? All Thor feats are PIS that don't show him killing every character he faces as it contradicts his showings of nearly killing Galactus and Crushing a Celestial dome.

You see the stupidity in that logic?

Originally posted by Desaad
Sorry if me being consistent, and portraying a balanced view of the issues is too much for you.

Yeah, Darkseid "defeated" the Greeks, he took over Olympus. With the help of his forces. I don't see how anyone could doubt that, given the evidence of his forces being EVERYWHERE, and the fact that he has never attacked with the express purpose of taking over without his forces.

Unlike Thanos, Darkseid doesn't like physical confrontation. He wouldn't go and destroy a civilization for fun.

If you can't see that, you don't understand the character.

Have you ever seen me say he does anything for fun? Please dont' seek to establish yourself as an expert by making mis givings. You were the one that said DS has already pwned the greeks. You left out the part about the army. I'd take that is you misrepresenting. Isn't that what you accuse me of? I don't find you consistant nor do I find you balanced. I find you another who thinks thier view is correct. I find no ones views correct. not even mine. They are opinions based upon what is subjective matter written by inconsistant writers. So for you to present anything consistant when the portrayals and writers are not is ****ing amazing to me. have a good night.

Originally posted by Desaad
To build him technology, yeah.

Why would he need that, if he has all that power in himself?

Technology is something all together different than power. A light bulb is nothing with out the power. And the power is useless if not applied right with the right tech.

Originally posted by starking
Come on, be real. Why the hell, would wanna take those pathetic showings against Superman, into consideration. I mean, everyone of those was just...embarrasing. And not just to Ds, but to comics and the great Jack Kirby, in general. And does a few bad showings, overweigh a character's average?

Why the hell would I take those showings into consideration? Because they are continuity and they are canon.

I don't go back and re-read them. I don't try to rationalize them. Yeah, I think they were poorly written. They portrayed Darkseid poorly, they portrayed Apokolips poorly. The writers didn't get what he was about, what the New Gods were about.

But I can separate what I like, and what reality is. In my own internal canon, nothing beyond Kirby's New Gods and Simonson's Orion series happened. Those are the only two treatments of the characters to really hit the mark. Ever.

But I can't go around arguing that showings from only those series' count, can I? In my head, those are the ones that matter, but when I debate I like to be fully knowledgeable.

Originally posted by Desaad
Well, can't I argue that about any character then?

"Well, all those losses of Superman to Darkseid were PIS, so they don't count...".

Where does that leave us?

I'm not discounting every loss. 'Apokolips now!' was bad, but it's not PIS. S/B 25 however............that was total PIS.

Originally posted by The Problem
So I can discount any feat I choose? All Thor feats are PIS that don't show him killing every character he faces as it contradicts his showings of nearly killing Galactus and Crushing a Celestial dome.

You see the stupidity in that logic? 2 or 3 low showings, SHOULDN'T overshadow a character's average portrayal.

Originally posted by Desaad
Why the hell would I take those showings into consideration? Because they are continuity and they are canon.

I don't go back and re-read them. I don't try to rationalize them. Yeah, I think they were poorly written. They portrayed Darkseid poorly, they portrayed Apokolips poorly. The writers didn't get what he was about, what the New Gods were about.

But I can separate what I like, and what reality is. In my own internal canon, nothing beyond Kirby's New Gods and Simonson's Orion series happened. Those are the only two treatments of the characters to really hit the mark. Ever.

But I can't go around arguing that showings from only those series' count, can I? In my head, those are the ones that matter, but when I debate I like to be fully knowledgeable.

Read the forum rules. PIS does not count. where does PIS come from. Poorly written stories by poor writers.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
I'm not discounting every loss. Apokolips was bad, but it's not PIS. S/B 25 however............that was total PIS.

S/B the series is PIS. batman beating doomsdays with batarangs. WTF. Superman getting pwned by despero in hand to hand and then one shotting him with heat Vision. WTF.

Originally posted by starking
2 or 3 low showings, SHOULDN'T overshadow a character's average portrayal.

Give my any mainstrem top tier that only has two or three low showings.

Originally posted by The Problem
Give my any mainstrem top tier that only has two or three low showings.
Any Main stream Character has more than That.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
S/B the series is PIS. batman beating doomsdays with batarangs. WTF. Superman getting pwned by despero in hand to hand and then one shotting him with heat Vision. WTF.

Very shitty clones of Doomsday, but the point is taken.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
Have you ever seen me say he does anything for fun? Please dont' seek to establish yourself as an expert by making mis givings. You were the one that said DS has already pwned the greeks. You left out the part about the army. I'd take that is you misrepresenting.

You can take it however you want, but clearly I have no misgivings of telling the truth if only asked. I'm not going to write out a complex analysis of the events as they went down for no reason - that is silly, and wastes my time.

One thing I don't do is make things up, as you do, or make wild assumptions and present them as fact.




Thats fine.

Do you realize that other boards repost what you say, and laugh at you?





You don't understand.

Overall interpretations of a character are subjective. Are they cool? Do they suck? Are they interesting?

The evidence, as it is, is relatively straightforward. It was either printed on the page, or it wasn't. Saying "the one" took on Darkseid and Darkseid beat him and hoping that no one had read it...thats not the same, is it?

I've seen you do this repeatedly, and its childish.

Originally posted by Desaad
Why the hell would I take those showings into consideration? Because they are continuity and they are canon.

I don't go back and re-read them. I don't try to rationalize them. Yeah, I think they were poorly written. They portrayed Darkseid poorly, they portrayed Apokolips poorly. The writers didn't get what he was about, what the New Gods were about.

But I can separate what I like, and what reality is. In my own internal canon, nothing beyond Kirby's New Gods and Simonson's Orion series happened. Those are the only two treatments of the characters to really hit the mark. Ever.

But I can't go around arguing that showings from only those series' count, can I? In my head, those are the ones that matter, but when I debate I like to be fully knowledgeable. Desaad, there's a TON of horrible showings, for various comic book characters. Why do we have to use the less consistent, Superman level Darkseid(or Dorkshit, as I call him), over the MORE consistent skyfather level, we've seen more often?

Originally posted by The Problem
Give my any mainstrem top tier that only has two or three low showings. Silver Surfer, but how does that help your point?

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
Read the forum rules. PIS does not count. where does PIS come from. Poorly written stories by poor writers.

Then I can be banned from the board, but I'm going to argue as I see fit.

PIS is an inherently opinion/perception based rule. It doesn't make sense, as its just a "delete" button for any showings someone doesn't like.

Where does the line get drawn?

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
TP strong enough to dominate 3 BILLION Daxamites? I think not. That is one of the greatest telepathy feats in the history of comics.

The team becomes the new male furies of Darkseid. 3 billion daxamites after he absorbed a shit load of power. impressive feat but ds was powered up. explains why he doesnt do it more often. ds needs to be powered up.

Originally posted by Desaad
You can take it however you want, but clearly I have no misgivings of telling the truth if only asked. I'm not going to write out a complex analysis of the events as they went down for no reason - that is silly, and wastes my time.

One thing I don't do is make things up, as you do, or make wild assumptions and present them as fact.




Thats fine.

Do you realize that other boards repost what you say, and laugh at you?





You don't understand.

Overall interpretations of a character are subjective. Are they cool? Do they suck? Are they interesting?

The evidence, as it is, is relatively straightforward. It was either printed on the page, or it wasn't. Saying "the one" took on Darkseid and Darkseid beat him and hoping that no one had read it...thats not the same, is it?

I've seen you do this repeatedly, and its childish.
You seen me take what I read and what I interpret and express my views? And do you think I care what other boards say? I have read the other boards and they are REDICULOUS. They have Thor all over Superman, Think Thanos Rules all, and has hulk beating people like Captain Marvel. So forgive me if I dont' give a ****. and please let them know I said it. As I said, I take the context of the character, what I read, and what I find that I didn't read and make my own opinion. You really should try it. If DS can beat TWO Top tiers in less than a second, it makes no sense that he can't beat 6 using more powers. period. Try logic. Takion beat 3 top tiers without even trying. DS>>>>>takion.

Originally posted by Desaad
Then I can be banned from the board, but I'm going to argue as I see fit.

PIS is an inherently opinion/perception based rule. It doesn't make sense, as its just a "delete" button for any showings someone doesn't like.

Where does the line get drawn?

Not bad. But seeing as how the OE has worked on better beings than Superman, and it has gone through barriers and blasts stronger than Superman's HV, and it's worked perfectly on peers of Superman.....


It's more like 'The superman effect' than anything else. Meaning, DC wanking Superman. IE: Superman stopping the Omega Effect with his HV is PIS.

Originally posted by starking
Desaad, there's a TON of horrible showings, for various comic book characters. Why do we have to use the less consistent, Superman level Darkseid(or Dorkshit, as I call him), over the MORE consistent skyfather level, we've seen more often?

Because thats just not true. You don't HAVE a glut of consistent Skyfather battle feats for Darkseid. You have GDS, and then you have sort of "ABC" logic stuff like creating Stayne.

What I'm saying is, why should we ignore the bad showings? Why not just factor them all in, and come up with an average? In the end, won't that work out the best? Those characters with a large number of bad showings will have a low average, as the bad showings will be more the rule than the exception. And same holds true for those with mostly good showings.

It just seems the most fair way, barring special circumstances (say if a character only has 3 showings to their name).

Originally posted by quanchi112
3 billion daxamites after he absorbed a shit load of power. impressive feat but ds was powered up. explains why he doesnt do it more often. ds needs to be powered up.

Shitload of power? BS. He was weakened and not near his normal levels. It's an even bigger feat because it was a weakened Darkseid doing it.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Not bad. But seeing as how the OE has worked on better beings than Superman, and it has gone through barriers and blasts stronger than Superman's HV, and it's worked perfectly on peers of Superman.....


It's more like 'The superman effect' than anything else. Meaning, DC wanking Superman. IE: Superman stopping the Omega Effect with his HV is PIS. supes is getting more powerful as time goes by. ask nver. supes has been catching darkseid for years. while he isnt his equal yet supes has been beating him down consecutively so when do u stop calling it pis and start saying things have changed.

Originally posted by Desaad
Then I can be banned from the board, but I'm going to argue as I see fit.

PIS is an inherently opinion/perception based rule. It doesn't make sense, as its just a "delete" button for any showings someone doesn't like.

Where does the line get drawn? I wouldnt say showings that people don't like, now that doesn't make sense, but showings that DON'T blend in, with a character's normal powerset.

Originally posted by quanchi112
3 billion daxamites after he absorbed a shit load of power. impressive feat but ds was powered up. explains why he doesnt do it more often. ds needs to be powered up.

No actually.

He makes specific reference in-book that even with all the power he absorbed, his powers have "waned" in the 30th century.

In other words, he is weaker than he was in the 20th century.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Shitload of power? BS. He was weakened and not near his normal levels. It's an even bigger feat because it was a weakened Darkseid doing it. ur saying absorbing mordru and time trapper didnt increase his power?

Originally posted by quanchi112
ur saying absorbing mordru and time trapper didnt increase his power?

He admitted he wasn't anywhere near his normal power levels and that he was still weakened even after draining them.

Originally posted by Desaad
No actually.

He makes specific reference in-book that even with all the power he absorbed, his powers have "waned" in the 30th century.

In other words, he is weaker than he was in the 20th century. so why doesnt he do that in todays times. makes no sense. i thought since mordru is an abstract and has no beginning and end hes no slouch. are u saying ds is that much more powerful than mordru?

Originally posted by starking
I wouldnt say showings that people don't like, now that doesn't make sense, but showings that DON'T blend in, with a character's normal powerset.

At what point does that become someone just cancelling out all their low showings?

Lets say I'm a big Rhino fan. My guess is, I won't have been happy with the majority of his showings since his introduction in the Hulk. Dude gets regularly beaten on by Spiderman.

Does that mean that all those Spiderman showings are out the door, because it doesn't blend in with his original Hulk-esque power set?

Originally posted by Desaad
No actually.

He makes specific reference in-book that even with all the power he absorbed, his powers have "waned" in the 30th century.

In other words, he is weaker than he was in the 20th century. This is why I can't hate you Desaad, you always prove Qaunchi wrong

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
He admitted he wasn't anywhere near his normal power levels and that he was still weakened even after draining them.

And let's be real about this. Mordru would beat these 6 top tier heroes while laughing. And so would the time trapper. Weak DS beat them and his younger was yet stronger. Nuff said.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
He admitted he wasn't anywhere near his normal power levels and that he was still weakened even after draining them. gds feats dont count anyways.

Originally posted by quanchi112
so why doesnt he do that in todays times. makes no sense. i thought since mordru is an abstract and has no beginning and end hes no slouch. are u saying ds is that much more powerful than mordru?

YES, YOU DUMBSHIT!

Originally posted by Desaad
At what point does that become someone just cancelling out all their low showings?

Lets say I'm a big Rhino fan. My guess is, I won't have been happy with the majority of his showings since his introduction in the Hulk. Dude gets regularly beaten on by Spiderman.

Does that mean that all those Spiderman showings are out the door, because it doesn't blend in with his original Hulk-esque power set?

We know that Rhino has CIS. That is different than PIS.

Originally posted by quanchi112
so why doesnt he do that in todays times. makes no sense. i thought since mordru is an abstract and has no beginning and end hes no slouch. are u saying ds is that much more powerful than mordru?

Sure, in that portrayal Darkseid was clearly WAY above Mordru.

He didn't absorb the Time Trapper's power, though. That was revealled to be a Controller (still absurdly powerful, on par with a Guardian).

Originally posted by quanchi112
gds feats dont count anyways.

I might have agreed with you at one point.

The New Gods were affected by Zero Hour, after all, if not Crisis on Infinite Earths.

But it seems clear that now, with the Pre-Crisis Legion back in continuity, GDS is back in continuity.

Originally posted by Desaad
At what point does that become someone just cancelling out all their low showings?

Lets say I'm a big Rhino fan. My guess is, I won't have been happy with the majority of his showings since his introduction in the Hulk. Dude gets regularly beaten on by Spiderman.

Does that mean that all those Spiderman showings are out the door, because it doesn't blend in with his original Hulk-esque power set? good point.

Originally posted by Desaad
At what point does that become someone just cancelling out all their low showings?

Lets say I'm a big Rhino fan. My guess is, I won't have been happy with the majority of his showings since his introduction in the Hulk. Dude gets regularly beaten on by Spiderman.

Does that mean that all those Spiderman showings are out the door, because it doesn't blend in with his original Hulk-esque power set? Here's the difference, Rhino ISN'T a character of pis, but one of cis. Meaning any time he gets humilated by Spider-man, it's because of him being a complete moron. Ds DIFFERS from Rhino, in a MAJORITY of his apearances, he has been viewed by writers, as above Superman level characters.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
And let's be real about this. Mordru would beat these 6 top tier heroes while laughing. And so would the time trapper. Weak DS beat them and his younger was yet stronger. Nuff said.

Right, and I have no reservations admitting that Great Darkness Saga Darkseid would destroy 6 top tiers, and then some.

But one showing is not his average. It's one showing.

Originally posted by Desaad
I might have agreed with you at one point.

The New Gods were affected by Zero Hour, after all, if not Crisis on Infinite Earths.

But it seems clear that now, with the Pre-Crisis Legion back in continuity, GDS is back in continuity. is that stated or are u just assuming gds counts.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
YES, YOU DUMBSHIT! reagardless. ds went areound stealing peoples powers. aka thier lunch money. he needed powerups not his own. he had to steal power to be able to accomplish this. he took kids lunch money.

Originally posted by quanchi112
is that stated or are u just assuming gds counts.

No, he's probably right. If ZH did cancel out GDS, then the PC Legion being back in-continuity means that GDS is usable again.............


as is everyone else's PC feats................... scared

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
No, he's probably right. If ZH did cancel out GDS, then the PC Legion being back in-continuity means that GDS is usable again.............


as is everyone else's PC feats................... scared ur saying probably but not definitely. so it isnt fact yet. dc screws shit up so much. they really make is confusing to follow with all this crap.

Originally posted by Desaad
Right, and I have no reservations admitting that Great Darkness Saga Darkseid would destroy 6 top tiers, and then some.

But one showing is not his average. It's one showing. But we still have Ds doing stuff, like trumping the Losh, depowering Secret, scaring the Lords of chaos, and creating Stayne, we can't say FOR SURE if Seid isn't at that level, for in those storys he really didn't show much of a limit.

Originally posted by starking
Here's the difference, Rhino ISN'T a character of pis, but one of cis. Meaning any time gets humilated by Spider-man, it's because of him being a complete moron. Ds DIFFERS from Rhino, in a MAJORITY of his apearances, he has been viewed by writers, as above Superman level characters.

I'm not sure I necessarily agree with that.

John Byrne clearly had Superman defeat Darkseid in Legends, and even if that was later retconned by Evanier, Byrne clearly believed that Superman could take Darkseid. His Generations III had Darkseid kill two Superman level or above beings, but then ultimately lose in single combat to Superman himself. Its out of continuity, but it clearly illustrates John Bryne's views on the whole thing -- and this guy once said that Darkseid was only slightly less powerful than Galactus!

Jeph Loeb, Mark Schultz, Chuck Austen...It seems they feel Superman is above Darkseid too.

Of course Darkseid has some great showings under his belt, and I'm sure there are a lot of writers who believe him to be above Superman -- but the fact remains that he only has one absolute clean physical win on Superman, and even that wasn't a knock out, at best a TKO.

I'll be honest, I don't fully understand the PIS/CIS examples you guys are giving me. It seems to be a rather disingenuous rule when debating, though, as anyone can just call someone's example PIS and be done with it.

Originally posted by Desaad
Right, and I have no reservations admitting that Great Darkness Saga Darkseid would destroy 6 top tiers, and then some.

But one showing is not his average. It's one showing.

let's use Logic. Stayne would beat Them with ease. DS>> Stayne.

GDS DS is still DS. When he doesn't use his power to his fullest, we call that PIS. Plot induced stupidity. It's like when superman actually has trouble with the toyman or flash gets clocked by a boomerang.

Originally posted by quanchi112
is that stated or are u just assuming gds counts.

Its never been stated, but its no more an assumption than you assuming that it doesn't count.

The era of this Legion, the clothes they are wearing, everything points to GDS counting again.

Originally posted by Desaad
I'm not sure I necessarily agree with that.

John Byrne clearly had Superman defeat Darkseid in Legends, and even if that was later retconned by Evanier, Byrne clearly believed that Superman could take Darkseid. His Generations III had Darkseid kill two Superman level or above beings, but then ultimately lose in single combat to Superman himself. Its out of continuity, but it clearly illustrates John Bryne's views on the whole thing -- and this guy once said that Darkseid was only slightly less powerful than Galactus!

Jeph Loeb, Mark Schultz, Chuck Austen...It seems they feel Superman is above Darkseid too.

Of course Darkseid has some great showings under his belt, and I'm sure there are a lot of writers who believe him to be above Superman -- but the fact remains that he only has one absolute clean physical win on Superman, and even that wasn't a knock out, at best a TKO.

I'll be honest, I don't fully understand the PIS/CIS examples you guys are giving me. It seems to be a rather disingenuous rule when debating, though, as anyone can just call someone's example PIS and be done with it.

Oh come on. That's obviously DC wanking Superman. He can pwn every single peer of Superman but lose to Big Blue himself?

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
let's use Logic. Stayne would beat Them with ease. DS>> Stayne.

GDS DS is still DS. When he doesn't use his power to his fullest, we call that PIS. Plot induced stupidity. It's like when superman actually has trouble with the toyman or flash gets clocked by a boomerang. his point is simple to follow. while u want to say gds ds is ds going all out. it isnt his average showing. u cant say this is what ds is capable of. and totally discount supes kicking his ass. u have to factor in all his showings. u cant just use his high showings.

Originally posted by quanchi112
reagardless. ds went areound stealing peoples powers. aka thier lunch money. he needed powerups not his own. he had to steal power to be able to accomplish this. he took kids lunch money.

But it still didn't power him up beyond his normal levels, or even TO his normal levels, and he nearly took over the universe and defeated two of the most powerful beings in that universe in the process, casually.

Your dismissal of this showing for Darkseid indicates to me that you don't think anything THanos has ever done is impressive, because your above description is exactly what Thanos does every time he has a "plan".

Originally posted by Desaad
Its never been stated, but its no more an assumption than you assuming that it doesn't count.

The era of this Legion, the clothes they are wearing, everything points to GDS counting again. but until its clear we can assume nothing. ds is whacked out. they do stupid shit all the time.

Originally posted by starking
But we still have Ds doing stuff, like trumping the Losh, depowering Secret, scaring the Lords of chaos, and creating Stayne, we can't say FOR SURE if Seid isn't at that level, for in those storys he really didn't show much of a limit.

It actually must have been Desaad who scared the Lords of Chaos and Order, since "Darkseid" later lost to Dr. Fate (Eric/Linda Strauss) and that was retconned in v2 of New Gods.

Darkseid "trumping the LoSH"...are you referring to Foundations? Because I'd say he showed a limit when he was driven back into the Tube. Not nearly the bad showing that Quanchi is making it out to be, but not something that would, IMHO, show him to be above 6 top tiers in a battle.

Creating Stayne isn't a battle feat, really, which is part of what throws me about that one. Its impressive, definitely, but why haven't we seen that translate into more battles?

Originally posted by Desaad
But it still didn't power him up beyond his normal levels, or even TO his normal levels, and he nearly took over the universe and defeated two of the most powerful beings in that universe in the process, casually.

Your dismissal of this showing for Darkseid indicates to me that you don't think anything THanos has ever done is impressive, because your above description is exactly what Thanos does every time he has a "plan". i was mocking nver. if u read his posts this is what he always says to me. he says thanos needs powerups to take over the universe. when i say who the hell doesnt need a powerup to beat down the univser. i was saying this just to him. arguing how he does to me. he thinks its ok for ds to steal power but not ok for thanos.

Originally posted by quanchi112
but until its clear we can assume nothing. ds is whacked out. they do stupid shit all the time.

Then by that same token, we would have to go back to the default -- which is that it was published at one point, so it must be in continuity.

Which leads us back to my view anyway.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Oh come on. That's obviously DC wanking Superman. He can pwn every single peer of Superman but lose to Big Blue himself?

I see it as well as you do, but its STILL CONTINUITY.

I don't see why you guys are so resistant to continuity.

Originally posted by The Problem
Give my any mainstrem top tier that only has two or three low showings. Black Bolt.
Sentry. ermmhappy

Originally posted by Desaad
Then by that same token, we would have to go back to the default -- which is that it was published at one point, so it must be in continuity.

Which leads us back to my view anyway. until its stated clearly. i dont buy it. u make good points. ur not biased in any way in my eyes. but until its official i wont count it. common sense doesnt apply to comics alot of the time.

Originally posted by Desaad
I'm not sure I necessarily agree with that.

John Byrne clearly had Superman defeat Darkseid in Legends, and even if that was later retconned by Evanier, Byrne clearly believed that Superman could take Darkseid. His Generations III had Darkseid kill two Superman level or above beings, but then ultimately lose in single combat to Superman himself. Its out of continuity, but it clearly illustrates John Bryne's views on the whole thing -- and this guy once said that Darkseid was only slightly less powerful than Galactus!

Jeph Loeb, Mark Schultz, Chuck Austen...It seems they feel Superman is above Darkseid too.

Of course Darkseid has some great showings under his belt, and I'm sure there are a lot of writers who believe him to be above Superman -- but the fact remains that he only has one absolute clean physical win on Superman, and even that wasn't a knock out, at best a TKO.

I'll be honest, I don't fully understand the PIS/CIS examples you guys are giving me. It seems to be a rather disingenuous rule when debating, though, as anyone can just call someone's example PIS and be done with it. Bryne thinks Seid is slightly less powerful, than Galactus, yet he has Superman defeating him? Wow, that's real...confusing . Anyways, I still believe, that if a majority of his writers, have him ABOVE Superman, then that's the guy, we should be using in debates, rather than those piss poor showings(excluding Bryne's), against Superman. In other words, let's use the Ds, created by(and carried on, to other writer's beliefs), Jack Kirby

Originally posted by Desaad
I see it as well as you do, but its STILL CONTINUITY.

I don't see why you guys are so resistant to continuity. great point. its justifications. it counts and stands. each writer views characters differently. writers make comics. just becuz superman beats ds recently that doesnt make it not count. becuz back in the day ds owned him. thats like saying things dont change and its crap and shouldnt count. it counts.

Originally posted by SpunkySmurph
Black Bolt.
Sentry. ermmhappy

Sentry doen'st have enough Top showings. Nothing that puts him even close to Superman. And BB has no Feats on his own that I'm aware of. Most if his feats are battle feats. Not exactly Top tier inspiring.

Originally posted by starking
Bryne thinks Seid is slightly less powerful, than Galactus, yet he has Superman defeating him? Wow, that's real...confusing . Anyways, I still believe, that if a majority of his writers, have him ABOVE Superman, then that's the guy, we should be using in debates, rather than those piss poor showings(excluding Bryne's), against Superman. In other words, let's use the Ds, created by(and carried on, to other writer's beliefs), Jack Kirby kirby doesnt write ds anymore. im sure if ds does some amazing ass crap in countdown ull count it. and refer to it. but if he gets embarrassed it will be more piss. everything counts in continuity. we cannot pick and choose. if that were the case its anarchy.

Originally posted by quanchi112
kirby doesnt write ds anymore. im sure if ds does some amazing ass crap in countdown ull count it. and refer to it. but if he gets embarrassed it will be more piss. everything counts in continuity. we cannot pick and choose. if that were the case its anarchy.

Then for the sake of continuity, Thanos has done nothing impressive on his own other than standing up to Odin. every other feat he has is filled with some kind of prep, Tech, stealing of others candy, or an amazing power up. and of course this is all in continuity.

Thats not true at all, by the way.

Just putting that out there.

Originally posted by Desaad
It actually must have been Desaad who scared the Lords of Chaos and Order, since "Darkseid" later lost to Dr. Fate (Eric/Linda Strauss) and that was retconned in v2 of New Gods.

Darkseid "trumping the LoSH"...are you referring to Foundations? Because I'd say he showed a limit when he was driven back into the Tube. Not nearly the bad showing that Quanchi is making it out to be, but not something that would, IMHO, show him to be above 6 top tiers in a battle.

Creating Stayne isn't a battle feat, really, which is part of what throws me about that one. Its impressive, definitely, but why haven't we seen that translate into more battles? Yeah, the Desaad thing, was an interesting twist.

And I agree with you, on the Losh thing, atleast it took their top players, to perform that feat, and the story NEEDED a way, to defeat Darkseid, so it really wasn't that bad.

As for the Stayne thing, he HAS created powerful beings, more than once. And if he can do anything better than her, then he should be able to replicate ANY feat, she does. I know it's abc logic, but it's not always inaccurate.

Originally posted by Desaad
I'm not sure I necessarily agree with that.

John Byrne clearly had Superman defeat Darkseid in Legends, and even if that was later retconned by Evanier, Byrne clearly believed that Superman could take Darkseid. His Generations III had Darkseid kill two Superman level or above beings, but then ultimately lose in single combat to Superman himself. Its out of continuity, but it clearly illustrates John Bryne's views on the whole thing -- and this guy once said that Darkseid was only slightly less powerful than Galactus!

Jeph Loeb, Mark Schultz, Chuck Austen...It seems they feel Superman is above Darkseid too.

Of course Darkseid has some great showings under his belt, and I'm sure there are a lot of writers who believe him to be above Superman -- but the fact remains that he only has one absolute clean physical win on Superman, and even that wasn't a knock out, at best a TKO.

I'll be honest, I don't fully understand the PIS/CIS examples you guys are giving me. It seems to be a rather disingenuous rule when debating, though, as anyone can just call someone's example PIS and be done with it.
The thing with the PIS thing is without it people can honestly say that Thanos can lose to Wolverine, or Firelord to Spiderman, thats why PIS is necessary. Without it we really can't have decisive victories because many characters have low showing that lower them alot or high showing that make them too high.

Originally posted by starking
Yeah, the Desaad thing, was an interesting twist.

And I agree with you, on the Losh thing, atleast it took their top players, to perform that feat, and the story NEEDED a way, to defeat Darkseid, so it really wasn't that bad.

As for the Stayne thing, he HAS created powerful beings, more than once. And if he can do anything better than her, then he should be able to replicate ANY feat, she does. I know it's abc logic, but it's not always inaccurate.

remember that highfather made it clear that DS could and would destroy Takion. Takion beat 3 top tiers without even trying. Would Takion have any problem beating these six? should a being able to kill Takion have any problem beating them?

Originally posted by Desaad
I see it as well as you do, but its STILL CONTINUITY.

I don't see why you guys are so resistant to continuity.

Astro......killing them with courtesy.


True story, PIS = Picking Individual showings i do/don't like.

No CIS is basically taking away characterization, and leaving only the powerset to debate with.

Hence threads like Superman vs Six marvel top tiers, with a midtier thrown in, going to Superman 9/10.

I already said on SHC, that under some pens he'd win the match, but it wouldn't be the majority.

A certain few on KMC staunchly void the losses to Superman from Darkseids record.

I don't think Superman has his number, but i do think if they fought ten times, the kryptonian would win about 2 matches.

I also think Thor and other elite top tiers could win a match or two as well, which isn't as bad as Xerxes or Imp saying Uxas loses 5.5/10.

It leaves Darkseid still comfortably above the top tier, with losses being the outlier.

As i've said to this bunch many times.......the losses to superman don't define his record.

But they do influence it, as any and all canon showings do.

It won't sink in tho.

Mostly because the rules support their stance, and because many people don't actually read the comics, but go on hearsay.

But Thanos has never lost to Wolverine.

And Firelord's Spiderman showing is canon, but by no means his average, so taking the "average" approach should be sufficient to argue against "Spiderman beats Firelord".

Originally posted by quanchi112
kirby doesnt write ds anymore. im sure if ds does some amazing ass crap in countdown ull count it. and refer to it. but if he gets embarrassed it will be more piss. everything counts in continuity. we cannot pick and choose. if that were the case its anarchy. Go watch your cartoons, the grown folks are talking

Originally posted by Desaad
But Thanos has never lost to Wolverine.

And Firelord's Spiderman showing is canon, but by no means his average, so taking the "average" approach should be sufficient to argue against "Spiderman beats Firelord".
thats picking and choosing as well. isn't that the same thing?

Originally posted by UniOmni
Astro......killing them with courtesy.


True story, PIS = Picking Individual showings i do/don't like.

No CIS is basically taking away characterization, and leaving only the powerset to debate with.

Hence threads like Superman vs Six marvel top tiers, with a midtier thrown in, going to Superman 9/10.

I already said on SHC, that under some pens he'd win the match, but it wouldn't be the majority.

A certain few on KMC staunchly void the losses to Superman from Darkseids record.

I don't think Superman has his number, but i do think if they fought ten times, the kryptonian would win about 2 matches.

I also think Thor and other elite top tiers could win a match or two as well, which isn't as bad as Xerxes or Imp saying Uxas loses 5.5/10.

It leaves Darkseid still comfortably above the top tier, with losses being the outlier.

As i've said to this bunch many times.......the losses to superman don't define his record.

But they do influence it, as any and all canon showings do.

It won't sink in tho.

Mostly because the rules support their stance, and because many people don't actually read the comics, but go on hearsay.
The Rules also support my belief that Thor should not be able to be cut by a razor or knocked out by a bullet. They support my theory that Odin should be able to pwn Thanos with the greatest of ease if he really wanted to. I also believe superman beats Thanos 2 out of ten. But meh.

Originally posted by starking
Yeah, the Desaad thing, was an interesting twist.

And I agree with you, on the Losh thing, atleast it took their top players, to perform that feat, and the story NEEDED a way, to defeat Darkseid, so it really wasn't that bad.

As for the Stayne thing, he HAS created powerful beings, more than once. And if he can do anything better than her, then he should be able to replicate ANY feat, she does. I know it's abc logic, but it's not always inaccurate.

I think at this point we are just going to have to agree to disagree.

What I want, to categorize Darkseid in the class that you do, is some very solid wins over some top tiers in a battle.

I have a feeling we are going to be getting that in Starlin's series, but only time will tell.

Originally posted by starking
Go watch your cartoons, the grown folks are talking

LMAO

Originally posted by Superherovandal
thats picking and choosing as well. isn't that the same thing?

No, quite the opposite.

Firelord was beaten by Spiderman (with some extenuating circumstances, like agreeing not to go Supernova or whatever).

And thats part of Firelord's average, and its part of Spiderman's as well.

But so too is Firelord taking on Hercules and Thor at once, and Spiderman getting taken down by the Vulture.

Ultimately, the most honest conclusion is going to be arrived at through averages, not through picking your favorite showings.

Originally posted by Desaad
I think at this point we are just going to have to agree to disagree.

What I want, to categorize Darkseid in the class that you do, is some very solid wins over some top tiers in a battle.

I have a feeling we are going to be getting that in Starlin's series, but only time will tell.

I call whiskying IM away a few times as wins. Also beating the shit out of Highfather. He knocked the **** out of WW with one hit in Rock of ages. He pwned Firestorm and Orion with a wave. He WTF pwned Earth Angel Supergirl who was able to beat Despero then pwn the other bad gods.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
Then for the sake of continuity, Thanos has done nothing impressive on his own other than standing up to Odin. every other feat he has is filled with some kind of prep, Tech, stealing of others candy, or an amazing power up. and of course this is all in continuity. yes beating the maker imprisoning thor with power gem. beating surfer everytime. no face it thanos has ds beat in spades. but im not letting this turn into another thanos vs ds thread. talk to me about it over in the other thread.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
Sentry doen'st have enough Top showings. Nothing that puts him even close to Superman. And BB has no Feats on his own that I'm aware of. Most if his feats are battle feats. Not exactly Top tier inspiring.


To Superheroavndlasomesuch

Why would it be a bad thing to not have decisive battles?

Isn't the actual fun in the vs forum in the actual debating of the characters?

And for anyone who's read comics a day in the life, decisive battles don't exist!

Comics exist for the underdog appeal mostly.

It shouldn't be this hard to tell.

And to Nvr - BB has no feats of his own, yet you admit he's got battle feats?

What makes Superman a top tier to you then Nvr?

Because he can see across the universe?

Or his bilingual tongue?

BB has plenty of feats that make him a top tier, and his lack of low showings pushes him to the elite top tier (imo).

He's got enough to beat WW.

Originally posted by Desaad
No, quite the opposite.

Firelord was beaten by Spiderman (with some extenuating circumstances, like agreeing not to go Supernova or whatever).

And thats part of Firelord's average, and its part of Spiderman's as well.

But so too is Firelord taking on Hercules and Thor at once, and Spiderman getting taken down by the Vulture.

Ultimately, the most honest conclusion is going to be arrived at through averages, not through picking your favorite showings.

So then basically, me not including PIS is part of your descision to try and come for me? Why don't you just rewrite our forum rules for us.

Originally posted by Desaad
But Thanos has never lost to Wolverine.

And Firelord's Spiderman showing is canon, but by no means his average, so taking the "average" approach should be sufficient to argue against "Spiderman beats Firelord".

That's complete hypocrisy. That fight is such PIS, it's part of forum rules.

He imprisoned Thor w/ Power Gem with technology, Quanchi. Bad example.

Originally posted by Desaad
No, quite the opposite.

Firelord was beaten by Spiderman (with some extenuating circumstances, like agreeing not to go Supernova or whatever).

And thats part of Firelord's average, and its part of Spiderman's as well.

But so too is Firelord taking on Hercules and Thor at once, and Spiderman getting taken down by the Vulture.

Ultimately, the most honest conclusion is going to be arrived at through averages, not through picking your favorite showings. yes we cant just pick and choose. must be taken through averages.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Originally posted by Desaad
But Thanos has never lost to Wolverine.

And Firelord's Spiderman showing is canon, but by no means his average, so taking the "average" approach should be sufficient to argue against "Spiderman beats Firelord".

I'm sorry, hypocrisy? I'm not sure you are using the term in the correct context, or else you could explain how me sticking with the way I've debated since I started debating is hypocritical?

Originally posted by starking
Go watch your cartoons, the grown folks are talking stick to the topic. i made a good point. u just want to pick and choose i dont know high showings for ds...

They'd be an improvement, and more in line with the actual characters we debate.

Originally posted by UniOmni
To Superheroavndlasomesuch

Why would it be a bad thing to not have decisive battles?

Isn't the actual fun in the vs forum in the actual debating of the characters?

And for anyone who's read comics a day in the life, decisive battles don't exist!

Comics exist for the underdog appeal mostly.

It shouldn't be this hard to tell.

And to Nvr - BB has no feats of his own, yet you admit he's got battle feats?

What makes Superman a top tier to you then Nvr?

Because he can see across the universe?

Or his bilingual tongue?

BB has plenty of feats that make him a top tier, and his lack of low showings pushes him to the elite top tier (imo).

He's got enough to beat WW.
When He shows that he is as strong and fast and skilled as her< i'd believe you. he hasn't. One lasso on his antenne and he's done. Or a super lasso not. At any rate, Superman is top tier cuz he does rediculous dumb shit every other day. I dont' agree with it, but he does it. I'm basically saying it's either feats or battles. But not both. The forum seems to choose when one is important and when not.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
So then basically, me not including PIS is part of your descision to try and come for me? Why don't you just rewrite our forum rules for us.

I'm not "coming for you". You are not worth that kind of effort.

But when I see you lying, I correct you. And when I see you debating in what I believe to be a dishonest manner, yeah, I disagree with you.

Whatever your forum rules might be, logic dictates a certain way of debating, and it isn't yours.

yeah but basically you exclude that showing from affecting your decision which is essentially PIS. the thing with DS is he's lost to Supes maybe 3-4 times but he's shown himself capable of higher feats so much more that it kinda shows how that isn't an accurate showing of his capabilites. I mean for instance imo Supes first real victory over DS was in OWAW but in the same story line DS owns Supes in 2 hits. which one affects my decision more? His victory but only because he's shown that level many times.

Originally posted by Desaad
I'm sorry, hypocrisy? I'm not sure you are using the term in the correct context, or else you could explain how me sticking with the way I've debated since I started debating is hypocritical?

Ok, hypocrisy was the wrong word. I apologize. But you're still wrong. SM vs. FL is part of forum rules for PIS. It clearly states that PIS cannot be used for debates.

no the thing is desaad is well knowledged and isnt biased in any way. now u want to call him a hypocrit becuz hes attacking darkseid to u in some way. he sees ds as what he is. he isnt biased towards him.

Originally posted by quanchi112
no the thing is desaad is well knowledged and isnt biased in any way. now u want to call him a hypocrit becuz hes attacking darkseid to u in some way. he sees ds as what he is. he isnt biased towards him.

I apologized for calling him a hypocrite. I make no such consideration for you.

Originally posted by Desaad
I'm not "coming for you". You are not worth that kind of effort.

But when I see you lying, I correct you. And when I see you debating in what I believe to be a dishonest manner, yeah, I disagree with you.

Whatever your forum rules might be, logic dictates a certain way of debating, and it isn't yours.
IN what you believe to be a dishonest manner. LMAO. Oh so now it's based on what you believe. And as i said, I'm so far above you in real life, I'd say you aren't worth me lying to. Trust me. If I say something that is incorrect, just correct me. others have done it. I have corrected others. Try it and try not to be condescending becuz you feel that you are some authority. I see nothign special. You can't even use good logic to place DS power lvl. Nuff said. Since you don't think i'm worth that kind of effort.

Originally posted by Superherovandal
yeah but basically you exclude that showing from affecting your decision which is essentially PIS. the thing with DS is he's lost to Supes maybe 3-4 times but he's shown himself capable of higher feats so much more that it kinda shows how that isn't an accurate showing of his capabilites. I mean for instance imo Supes first real victory over DS was in OWAW but in the same story line DS owns Supes in 2 hits. which one affects my decision more? His victory but only because he's shown that level many times. but supes wins have come in a row. ds may not be what he was once. supes may be growing in power to the writers. most recently supes has owned ds so it isnt piss. its called a win streak.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
I call whiskying IM away a few times as wins. Also beating the shit out of Highfather. He knocked the **** out of WW with one hit in Rock of ages. He pwned Firestorm and Orion with a wave. He WTF pwned Earth Angel Supergirl who was able to beat Despero then pwn the other bad gods.

When did he "beat the shit" out of Highfather?

He didn't knock WOnder Woman out with that one punch, just to be clear. Yeah, it was a good feat for him, but not a clean win.

Firestorm and Orion, yes.

When did he defeat Earth Angel Supergirl? And, of course, the Despero she faced wouldn't have been the team wrecker we saw in Virtue and Vice, more in line with the one who was scared stiff of Secret!

geeze can you guys just please lay off the insults its just a debate. nvr insults aren't allowed in a debate and it kinda lessens your side.