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This topic will probably start some heated arguments, but I feel it must be addressed. The topic is about the best lightsaber fighters. I feel that two of the most underated lightsaber fighters are Qui-Gon Jinn and Darth Maul. Darth Maul was certainly capable of holding his own against anyone with a lightsaber. He died because he got stupid and he payed for it . . . with his life. Could Darth Maul have taken on and defeated Mace Windu or Dooku? It's hard to say. Lightsaber are DEADLY. One slight miscalculation could be fatal. (Unlike a sword, all you need is to get touched the lightsaber . . .) But what about Qui-Gon Jinn? Dooku was his teacher (or so he claimed). Did Dooku teach (young) Qui-Gon Jinn the old style lightsaber fighting (in addition the new style)? Perhaps Qui-Gon knew both styles, but favored the new style (kinda like a martial artist who knows multiple arts but has a favorite). Confused yet?

In reality . . . the art of the lightsaber keeps evolving from movie to movie as GL (tries) to make the lightsaber art more visual. Compare the 'first' lightsaber duel of Darth Vader vs Ben Kenobi to the multiple duels at the end of AOTC. Perhaps I mixing apples with oranges?

People tend to OVERRATE Maul, not the other way around! He was bloody good but not the all-conquering killer people make him out to be.

The first lightsabre duel isn't actually that different from Dooku in AOTC-if he had been facing himself, or a similarly aged guy, it would have been very similar indeed. But as he was facing young and fast opponents he had to play that conservative style differently.

What I meant is the very first lightsaber duel in ANH seems kinda silly compared to the duels in the prequel movies . . .

Silly in what way? Rather perfect for a meeting of two Old Masters, I thought. Also has the benefit of being the most realistic swordfight of all of them, even if Vader is emplying a reverse grip for no reason and Obi-Wan does a pointless twirl...

Dooku vs Qui-Gon, that would have been a nice duel

dooku vs Maul would be better

Yoda is supposedly a good fighter, we may well see this in EP III:Yoda the flashing blade.

I really hope thats all he flashes

You know you so want to see the little green man.

if Yoda is the swordsman, what's Mace then?

Yoda's too short.

for what, dont underestimate short people. ....red dwarf....

Yes...i mostly agree on Maul. He is underrated. I dunno about qui gon jinn being the same way....he was very very good but died in a duel afterall. Dooku is good too but mace is better....i'd like to see that duel. Ofcourse yoda very good. And i guess Sidious won't be bad either..we'll see

Yoda is too short for swordfighting. No matter how good he actually is the plain truth is that he would be better if he were not so small. He is having to compensate for it all the time.

Kenobi is the best.

old or young? Padawan or Jedi?

Obi-Wan and Darth Maul is the best fight. Speaking of Ewan McGregor, I'm waching Moulin Rouge right now.

dont talk about that crap in SW section....please

uh oh

one of the best scenes

Obi-wan is the man, my friends.

I'm the best saber fighter in SW

well i challenge you...*drawes lightsaber, the yellow blade lights up my faces...how sexy*

after you're done modelling, tell me

tell you what?? how damn sexy i am in that yellow glance-light from my lightsaber...

you want to fight me or seduce me?

Actually if we are talking purely about sword fighting skills, then except for Maul, I'm really not impressed with any of the other fighters shown in the SW movies, either the OT or the prequels. I mean, none of the actors in the movies, i.e. Alec Guiness, or David Prowse, or Mark Hamill, Liam Neeson, Ewan Mcgregor, Hayden .... none of them are really sword fighters ... Alec Guiness and David Prowse especially. So most of those lightsabre fights, for me, have a kinda cosmetic look to them.

Except for Darth Maul. Because Ray Parks IS in fact i genuine martiall artist, and he looks like a real fighter using those swords.

I'm not talking about the characters here ... but of all the actors, Ray Parks is definitely the best fighter ... he's no actor, but he's a genuine fighter. He'd beat any of the other actors in a real fight. Which is why, I divorce the characters from the actors playing them. I mean ... Count Dooku would beat Darth Maul in a lightsabre duel. I just ignore the fact, that on screen, it's a bit of the stretch of the imagination to see that, cause Cristopher Lee wouldn't stand a chance against Ray Park in real life.

Artistic license, I guess.

well..i guess no actor in the sw universe would. But, as a character, as still think Maul's one of the best. right there besides Dooku and MAce. Those are the trio. The last 2 have more class. And i'm dyin to see how sidious performs

please,... die

Christopher Lee is a trained swordsman!

80 year old wrinklies regularly beat younger, flashier fighters in Kendo.

I like Dooku's ease when fighting....but the younger and flashier are also really cool to watch.....

dooku like Vader....slow and not interested

Well, Dooku's style is my favourite. It has brainpower behind it.

Cristopher Lee certainly does stand out in the fighting sequences no doubt ... u can tell he's not bullshitting, and that he knows his stuff. It's just that, aged 80, I don't see him standing a chance in a real fight against Ray Parks. But of course, Count Dooku over Darth Maul anyday.

Well, he probably couldn't, because he is a fencer, not a combat swordfighter, but the point is that an 80 year old beating a young martial artist is in no way odd.

agreed.....*see Ueshiba*
BUt then..it wouldn't matter who the best is...they're all arranged in the saga so that many eliminate eachother. Not necessarily the best being left alive.

Well u know, if on screen, they hypothetically showed Dooku beating Maul ( because Dooku IS a stronger jedi than Maul ), that would be right of course ... the way they've been characterized Count Dooku, although an old man, is stronger than Darth Maul.

However, that would again create, in my mind, a tinge of unreality ... cause Ray Parks, is obviously stronger and faster and more powerful than Cristopher Lee, who, though trained in fencing, is NOT a combat fighter or a martial artist, which Ray Parks is .. and no matter how the fight director would try to cleverly disguise that, it would still definitely come out to a certain extent.

ah but you see you aren't supposed to see Ray Park or Christopher Lee....one problem with the way people see movies today is that they know far too much about them....therefore they are not impressed like they used to be

I know I'm not supposed to see Ray Parks or Cristopher Lee ... but if they were ever shown on screen in a lightsabre duel, no matter how cleverly they covered it up, at some point it would be clearly to me as a viewer, that Ray Parks is a stronger and faster man than Cristopher Lee ... so although I would not be looking at Parks and Lee, but at Maul and Dooku .... it would apppear as if ... Maul is stronger and faster than Dooku ... but that of course is not true ... cause Dooku is the stronger sith ... that's where the artistic license thing comes in ... I would just ignore that part of it I guess.

I doubt I would notice anything. And stronger and faster has little to do with it; it would be down to the portrayed skill. If Christopher Lee WAS a trained combat sword master then I doubt it would actually look any different.

still Mauls close combat skill might be a problem to a fencer

Yeah, we've already covered that, but as Lee isn't fencing in the film, and as I cannot see how he looks like a fencer trying to fight like a swordsman rather than just a swordsman, I just can't see this point.

It was obvious that Obi-wan and Anakin didn't have a chance against Dooku, while Yoda morte than held his own. Mace Windu's (suppossed) unusual lightsaber fighting style would've allowed him to hold his own against Dooku. Darth Maul's speed, ferocity and double-bladed lightsaber would have been interesting against Dooku's calculating precision. Qui-Gon's knowledge of Dooku's fighting style from his teachings (Dooku was Qui-Gon's teacher . . . or so Dooku claimed) would've certainly given him an edge in using counter-techniques. However, Darth Vader vs Darth Tyranus would be most interesting. Dooku would have the edge with skill. However, Vader with his awesome power from his anger (as we saw in AOTC) would more than compensate with sheer aggression and ferocity.

Vader, as GL has stated, is too crippled to fight well. Dooku would beat him easily.

Vader's real strength comes from his anger. He had a lot more anger inside him than Darth Tyranus (Dooku) did. I read that Vader's Sith armor actually enhances his combat abilities even further, as was evident in the OT.

Wasn't really THAT evident, and that is not canon. Anger or otherwise he still would have been for the chop. The PT combatants are a class ahead of the OT ones.

Darth Vader IS both PT and OT. I guess we'll just have to wait to see how good he is in his black Sith armor in Episode 3 . . .

But he isn't crippled in the PT, is he? You know what I meant. Obi-Wan is both as well, but he has become enfeebled by then.

PT is all different.

well I guess Vaders strength in the force might have aided him, and that he was full of dirty tricks too.
Guess he learned some from Dokku but the Count seemed to be a bit more gentleman figther while duelling with the blades

To be honest, Dooku exhibited more tricks than Vader ever did.

The fact is that Luke, half-trained, as GL himself calls him, would never have been able to beat Vader if Vader had not been so inconvenienced by his injuries. It has been made clear that the OT combatants are not up to scratch!

Darth Vader can't be beaten. Period.

what was all the nagging about in other threads about "not overanalysing"? it's a kids movie, don't go all hyper about who's the best fighter

Darth Vader can't be beaten. Period.

Err... do you mean Vader in his prime? Because then that is possibly true. But by the OT, clearly otherwise.

eh *shakes head*

what?

well i guess his prime.
but even in his old age ... very difficult ... just too powerful with the force.

Count Dooku is my second favourite sith though. I think the best piece of casting for episode 2. Wish they had shown more of him in the storyline ... it's a really good character.

yoda obviously.

well all the fancy moves came in the NT, so if GL made EPIV today I guess Vader wouldbe a real bad ass fighting

It doesn't matter about Vader's power with the Force. It is fairly clear that regardless of Force power, sabre skill counts a whole lot more (Dooku is MUCH better than Obi-Wan with the Force but needed a sabre to beat him).

And regardless of anger, power, or otherwise, GL made it clear that the OT combatants are not as good as th PT ones, and that incluides crippled Vader.

true, but Vader hunted down the Jedi probably as a crippled too.
And I think Dooku would have big problems with martial art skills.

You would have thought that of Yoda too... besides, they are unneccessary.

I would say that even as a cripple Vader is powerful and skilled enough to hunt down most 'ordinary' Jedi. The fights that we are seeing in the PT is from the best of the bunch, of course.

If Anakin had gotten angry (while fighting Dooku) to the point when his mother died (eye's glowing with fury), he would've beaten Dooku.

Crap. You cannot just bring these things down to emotion and force power, in which Anakin is still a novice. Skill is vital and Dooku COMPLETELY outskills Anakin- not to mention Dooku also having considerable power.

Dooku is NOT an invincible, all-powerful, omnipotent lightsaber master. (Nor is Yoda for that matter.)

Highly skilled, he is, I will agree. However, one error/miscalculation in a lightsaber duel IS often fatal.

No matter how skilled any Jedi/Sith is with a lightsaber . . . someone else can always kill you.

Perhaps, Dooku's overconfidence (in his skill) will cost him . . . his life.

Yes, someone CAN kill him. Even the best fighters can lose fights; it's just like tennis. But that is true whether Anakin is angry or not.

The point is we are trying to work out who is better than the other... then angry Padawan Anakin is not better than Dooku.

Every style of fighthing have a weakness, the weakness being it doesent fit some other style to well. Like attacking violently (like Aniken did with Dooku) doesnt fit the elegant style(which is why Dooku beat Anaekin pretty easy) But the elegant,or Dooku`s style, have other styles it is fragile too so who knows.

yoda.

I guess we are talking purely about lightsabre skills.

On a general level, Darth Vader could not be beaten in single combat. Just a pure lightsabre battle is a different issue though. I would have to go with Yoda.

what do you mean Darth Vader could not be beaten? he was beaten

Since Yoda taught Dooku, he would know the weakness of Dooku's fighting style.
Another Jedi who would know Dooku's fighting style's weakness is Qui-Gon Jinn.
Since, Qui-Gon was (supposedly) Dooku's former Padawan (as Dooku claimed . . .) , he obviously would've seen Dooku use the old style.
Though Qui-Gon fought (in TPM) using the new style, it's very possible that he was also trained in the old style (but prefered the new style).
(That may be an EU topic future SW authors may write about).

Hang on, by that logic Dooku knows Yoda's weaknesses as well. You are applying it all both ways.

And do remember that a pure lightsabre battle is the important bit. It does not matter how in other ways Vader could fight; it is clear that the sabre is the way for a Jedi to kill another Force User regardless of other factors. As Mah pointed out, vader DID lose, and none of his great force power helped him- that fight was 99% sabre skill and nowt else.

yoda has no weakness's. havent you seen the commercial, yoda da man

Vader was beaten when he was old and way over the hill. And furthermore, the guy who beat him happened to be his own son ... there were emotional involvements involved .... Vader could not bring himself to fight as ruthlessly with his son, as he did with someone else. But u leave aside his son ... and you take Vader NOT old and over the hill ... than in single combat ... with or without lightsabres ... he could not be beaten.

Nah. Vader COULD kill Luke, as was the point. It was only when the Emperor was going to kill him that Vader changed his mind. In any case, Vader's powers were not affected by his age and crippled nature- only his sabre skill. I was reinforcing the point that it is sabre skill that counts when these people meet.

In any case, I imagine Anakin will be in his prime in Episode III, functionally the same as Vader. He will be beaten by Obi-Wan.

Still think Maul would have kicked Dooku`s ass

Not a hope!

Darth Maul would have a very tough time trying to kill Dooku. Maul almost got killed several times by Qui-Gon and he barely defeated him. Dooku probably would've defeated Maul.

Maul defeated Qui gon pretty easy you must remember Maul fough two guys at the same time

Yes, he was very, very good. But Dooku, I believe, was built up as being better.

BTW, I don't think he defeated Qui-Gon 'easily', by any means.

again, ill say yoda. he's a smaller target and can move fast.

But he is also too short. Dooku and Yoda were well matched.

yoda wasnt even on teh offensive, he was just flipping, he wasnt even trying to hit dookuu.

Errr, that is nonsense. Just about every blow he made was an attempt to outdo Dooku. He was 100% offensive, the only reasonable thing he could be seeing his enforced style.

after Obi was trapped between those doors Qui gon was an easy match for Maul

That was just how it went. But earlier in the fight they had seem well-matched, and on Tatooine QGJ was actually doing better than Maul.

better than Maul on Tatooine? have we seen the same movie.
He ran off on Tatooine and he was winded after the short saber clash with Maul. To me it seemed that Maul just wanted to wear QGJ down in the Naboo fight.

Yes I have seen the same movie and I saw QGJ doing well- as Nick Gillard described was the idea. In fact, he said of the cut sequence where Maul is thrown off the ramp he that in that fight, QGJ gets the better of Maul.

yoda barely threw any blows though. he took like 2 swings then just flipped. speaking of that, i got that movie today, i rented it early...new rules are that we arent allowed to buy anything before the release date but we can still rent, i think ill watch that tonight

Yoda was really quick.......lots and lots of flips....Dooku was cool and calm....Vader was full of anger...yet powerful strikes....Obiwan(young) was fierce and energetic....Maul was crazy....hmm I like them all

DM just got lucky against QGJ.
I would've like to have seen how Anakin and Obi-wan would've stood up to DM together (had he lived and been in Dooku's place) at the end of AOTC.
I'm sure Yoda would've beaten DM easily.

well Obi wan looked like a novice in AOTC compared to what he showed in TPM

Oooh, I would hesitate to say that Maul got lucky against QGJ. It was a good fight; could have gone either way. QGJ slipped up first.

Obi-Wan has playing conservative in AOTC- less flashy than TPM but more skilled.

I just posted this analysis in the DVD thread but I will repeat it here- I have been looking at the AOTC Dooku/Yoda fight in slo-mo.

Did a slo-mo analysis of all the sabre fights; very interesting to see Nick Gillard's skill at work. The Yoda fight, in particular, merited close analysis. Seems he makes a lot of good attacks that he has not the reach to capitalise on; Dooku makes good of this weakness by focusing on attacks that Yoda has to draw away from. But Yoda is too fast for Dooku to get an advantage and Yoda has very good positional skill- in all the clinches in which they converse, Yoda is in a better position. The ironic conclusion is that Dooku is actually very good on the move.

Oh, and his one-handed fighting style is joyful; even better in slo-mo when you can see what extra freedom it affords him.

However, that was actually C. Lee for far less time than I had thought.

I am not really "all for" Darth Maul because alot of people think he is a real bad ass but in Star Wars reality he isn't. What did he ever do that was so great, now I can see Darth Vader, Emperor Palpatine, or even Count Dooku. And what did Maul do? Lets see, apprentice to Darth Sidious, Revealed to the Jedi that the Sith were still in existence, and was killed by a Jedi padawan. So please somebody tell me why they think that maul is so great.

cause he looks cool. but yeah, dooku is better.

He had cool moves and you forgott that he killed a well respected jedi master

Ah.... So that is the reason why people like him so much. He still isn't cool to me but thats my opinion. Also I can tell you that Vader could kill either Dooku or Maul but if it was just saber skills and nothing more then they would have the advantage. But if the force was involved then of course it is no competition Vader would win. And between Maul and Dooku, Dooku would win for two reasons. One he is fully trained and very well skilled. And two, they were going for a more powerful villian in AOTC. Maul may have good moves but those moves also could be his weakness.

Oh REALLY

Maul was skilled as well but his arrogance got the upper hand , and the fact the way Obi beat him was really bad, it sucked big time. He could block all those blows but he couldnt handle a slow moving jedi flying through the air
In fact he more or less beat both Qui and Obi singled handed

like i did to finti last week..

Force power seems to have little to do with duels. I imagine QGJ to be the Force superior of Maul but that did not avail him. Sabre skill counts for a lot more; Vader would lose.

Darth Maul is Definitly the best ok, so he mesed up and paid for it but has more skill. yoda was very impressive though!

darth maul is a very good character but he's far from the best. Ush, i don't know if these separations are that accurate between saber skill and force power, in the movies. They are VERY linked. If one is sensitive to the force, how can the other one surprise him with an attack?
P.S.: watch something in slow motion. Just before Dooku cutting anakin's arm doesne't anakin just stand still for a second, like waiting for the blow? and dooku didn't inflict any flow on him..i checked dooku's moovement.

Anakin realised he had been caught out.

Knowing something is coming and stopping it are two entirely different things. If you are outplayed with the sabre you are outplayed and that is it. Dooku is MUCH better than Obi-Wan with th Force but had to use his sabre to defeat him, nor did he use the same trick on Anakin twice once Anakin was prepared.

It is EXCEEDINGLY clear that once you are a reasonably trained Jedi then only by using the sabre do you have any chance of taking down a like-trained opponent. Yoy can use your Force powers to aid yourself in limited ways but sabre skill is by far the most important factor.

Exactly. That is one of the main reasons why Darth Maul and Darth Vader consider themselves warriors. They use the lightsaber more often than telekinesis, Force Lightning or other Force powers when dueling against Jedi.

What I was trying to say is that with the force Maul and Dooku are no match for Vader but without using it they would probably beat him. Although they might be able to do that Vader is still better than them.

But can one really wield a lightsabre well without the Force then?

Frankly, Dooku struck me as not showing any less power than Vader... though at an older age, of course.

And queeq... well, it would be possible, with a LOT of training, for a normal guy to wield a weapon like that, as there ARE some real-life weapons that are as dangerous to the user as the opponent like a lightsabre is. But none quite THAT dangerous, and nothing as ludicrously self-destroying than Maul's sabre! All in all, compared relatively to a Jedi, you'd have to say no. And I would assume that it is only the Jedi's ability to sense things before they happen that allows them to intercept laser fire, and so on.

That was exactly my point, Ush. Thanks.

Of course, one can use a lightsabre. We can use sabres and swords, but we're talking about a weapon in a universe called SW. Deflecting laserbolts or even frantic attacks like OB1's when charging at Maul, would be nearly impossible for a non-Force user. So then, what's the point in using one, if only non-Force users would be defeatable, while they can choose from such a wide array of other lethal weapons.

Yes, a lightsaber would most certainly be dangerous to wield. Considering, that all you have to do is touch yourself with it to get injured.

Same with a sharp sword though. I don't think it's the wielding itself that is so dangerous, more that you're using it in a universe with many lethal weapons. To be able to best those with a sabre requires exceptional skills and undoubtably the Force.

and some poor ass shooters

A lightsabre is far more lethal to yourself than a sharp sword. There is no flat edge and even the merest brush will hurt you. You are as likely to hurt yourself as your opponent; swordfighting often involves contact with your weapon.

No paper cuts there

Nevertheless, not hurting yourself is trainable. Welding torches are dangerous, yet people do handle them with hurting themselves.

Yes, for sure, but a sabre is just a very, VERY dangerous thing to use! No good with any real-life sworfighting technique (except, again, fencing...) Maul's one being, as I say, ridiculous.

You can touch any part of a sword, even the blade (not recommended) without cutting yourself. You can NOT touch the blade of lightsaber without being injured. You would be better off touching white hot iron than a lightsaber blade.

Manydangerous can't be touched without getting hurt.

Now Maul's sabre I agree upon. That is EXTREMELY dangerous. But how many fencers or kendo fighters touch their own blades during fights????

Kendo fighters all the time. Swordfighting very commonly involves light contact with your blade.

Epee or foil fencing is different but we all know they aren't fighting like that...

we should introduce Axe fighting

You can use a sword to throw someone in some Japaneses sword fighting styles.

Like?

A light axe.... hmm, sounds like fun.

Impractical. A lightsaber would have a longer reacher. However, there are Vibro-axes in EU.

and what heck that be??

Yes?

Actually, in ROTJ, Lando has a vibro-axe in Jabba's palace. So they're not just EU.

But that's something with electroshocks or something, isn't it?

No.... it be's vibro. As in, Moving blade...

You know, a light-axe wouldnl;t HAVE to have a shorter reach... but what would the point of it be? An axe gives extra penetration, irrelevant to these weapons! And you would just reduce the amount of your weapon that was dangerous. It would be rubbish.

I cant belive this one even made an issue

Got them!

Yoda is definately the best... he's the most experienced!

yoda, no question.

...who is the best, tis very hard to say i think....as far as skills i'd have to say anakin, because even at such a young age he was able to take on dooku, and did you see dooku after the ight, he was panting quite heavily. had ani been a knight and had mroe experience it would hav been a done deal.

as for my favorite its darth maul, he moves very well wiht his sabre, plus he incoporates martial arts. he also looks fiece yet skilled and nto just wacking at a target. plus his saber is sooo cooooool.

maul was a baddie, i agree on that, but yoda would have tore him a new one.

yeah but yoda would tear anybody a new one..hes yoda man...lol....wonder if luke could have beaten obi-wan?

no doubt. luke was stronger in the force. imagine if maul would have lived, reached middle age with more experience under his belt. man, talk about a bad bad man.

Luke at what point? He's still only a Padawan equivalent by ROTJ and Obi-Wan's sabre skills even in TPM are far superior.

ush has a point, honestly i think maul should have lived, he would have been way more interesting as a sith lord than dooku, hes all old and boring. plus his lightsaber sux

Yoda or luke but luke never really had any compatition,so.

but youve gotta remember, ush, luke beat the hell out of vader in ROTJ. even before he was fighting with the dark side, vader couldnt touch him. luke was fighting defensive until vader taunted him with leia. also, i disagree that dooku sucks. his lightsaber and his lightsaber skills are awesome. did you forget how he countered all of anakins attacks when anakin had two lightsabers? awesome.

Vader wasn't a particularly brilliant fighter either, though, as GL has mentioned. And Luke was learning, was becoming powerful with his released emotions, AND he was the hero at the critical point of the saga, which counts for a lot.

But none of the OT combatants would have stood a chance against the PT ones (though Obi-Wan would have been fine if he had gotten back into the 'groove').

Oh, and I massively prefer Dooku to Maul, of course; he was awesome.

dm was only good for his agility.

He was very skilled as well, no point denying that, but in the end he was just a thug. Dooku had skill AND brains.

maul was too young and headstrong.

too young, never knew the age of Maul, now Dooku has long experience as a Jedi so yes he had patience, skills and the brains required to be a really dangerous bad ass. Maul was more of an cool moves vicious looking bad dude with to arrogant for his own good. He laked a vial thing patience

arrogance+lack of patience=headstrong.

Dooku was probably the most disciplined fighter. As in he had the most knowledge about fencing. Him, Mace, Yoda, Maybe Anakin. We'll see in the next movie.

I think Mace Windu is one of the best duelers

Yes- be nice to see him duel.

Mace Rules, becaus ehe uses form VII jedi techniques, whihc takes him very close to the dark side, but he controls his emotions making him very skilled. He is able to utilize emotion in fighting while still staying on the light side. There are very few form VII users.

I still think maul was cool. He was young i think, and thus impatient. The thing about dooku was that he had the best of both world, he had jedi and sith traits so he was more skilled, used emotion, but was patient also.