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it annoys the hell out me!!!! religions are so threatened by something that hasn't effected anything. I mean for goodness sake,can a person have an imagination or does their world have to be taken over by religion.

wikipedia



Disney is the devils domain obviously..it is were the magic live. God hates magic. it just agravates me. to get permission to read the book at certain schools...ugh..

I mean I am of a cathiloc upbringing and my parents are fine with the books. the controversy is too strong

any comments?

Do you mean you want to start a topic about Harry Potter and religion, and the controversy therein?

yes I do

Not a very good thread starter really

Surprisingly I don't think I've seen a thread souly based on this topic.

Really. In my eyes. It isn't much of religions fault. You just have the fanatics out there who overdo it.

Harry Potter is pro-Christianity. It's a Christian tale. Harry Potter is a Christian hero, and no, not in a derogetry way; he exemplifies all the virtues of Christianity.

However, you can't blame these fundamentalists. The Christian meaning ain't particuarly explicit, but Harry Potter would never have been succesful if it was not. All you can do is pity these peoples ignorance.

Laura Mallory is going straight to her very own Special Hell...

Originally posted by exanda kane
Harry Potter is pro-Christianity. It's a Christian tale. Harry Potter is a Christian hero, and no, not in a derogetry way; he exemplifies all the virtues of Christianity.

However, you can't blame these fundamentalists. The Christian meaning ain't particuarly explicit, but Harry Potter would never have been succesful if it was not. All you can do is pity these peoples ignorance. Those kinda comments ruin books for people.

Originally posted by exanda kane
Harry Potter is pro-Christianity. It's a Christian tale. Harry Potter is a Christian hero, and no, not in a derogetry way; he exemplifies all the virtues of Christianity.

However, you can't blame these fundamentalists. The Christian meaning ain't particuarly explicit, but Harry Potter would never have been succesful if it was not. All you can do is pity these peoples ignorance.

good argument.I do not think it is like uber christan. it does represents some qualities of other religions. the characters do celebrate christmas. magic is no more then a harmless exstenstion of their characters. harry is not worshiping the devil or anything. that is the complete opposiate (sp)

Besides I highly doubt one morning,JK rowling woke up and said " I think I shall write a book that shall lead children away from god and create an occult all to myself!"

This is why I don't partake in any religion whatsoever. I hear it's good for real estate, though.

Originally posted by The Phantom
Those kinda comments ruin books for people.

Yeah, well, the truth can be a hard hitter occasionally.

I would say that it's an opinion that Harry Potter is a Christian hero - he certainly does have elements of "Christ-like" about him, fighting temptation, choosing what is right instead of what is easy, but I feel Rowling wanted to instead make the point that all of us, everyday people, could do the same thing.

or.... there is a hero is every one of us.... But as DD said " its the choice we make that counts

Originally posted by siriuswriter
I would say that it's an opinion that Harry Potter is a Christian hero - he certainly does have elements of "Christ-like" about him, fighting temptation, choosing what is right instead of what is easy, but I feel Rowling wanted to instead make the point that all of us, everyday people, could do the same thing.

Your contradicting yourself. Everyone fights temptation, everyone must attempt to choose between the easy and the right, yet is this exactly what Christ had to do. So it is "Christ-like", as you put it, despite yours truly not even suggestion that direct a comparison. It's the looosing of innocence, the gaining of experience as Blake would have it.

Loyalty, sacrifice and selflessness are all virtues in the world of Harry Potter, the very virtues the doctrine tries to teach. You can attempt to ignore the Christian meaning underlining the book, maybe because you think it's "cool" or "neat" to hate religion, but Harry Potter isn't about indoctrinating you into the Church, but making sure kids grow up in the best possible way.

The triumph of Harry Potter is that Rowling manages to get past the "watchful dragons" of the population with a generally fascinating tale, so the message is subliminal. There's nothing wrong with that.

frankly i don't care what others think because i like to read the books. If some religious nuts want to say it heresy then thats fine by me.

Originally posted by exanda kane
Your contradicting yourself. Everyone fights temptation, everyone must attempt to choose between the easy and the right, yet is this exactly what Christ had to do. So it is "Christ-like", as you put it, despite yours truly not even suggestion that direct a comparison. It's the looosing of innocence, the gaining of experience as Blake would have it.

Loyalty, sacrifice and selflessness are all virtues in the world of Harry Potter, the very virtues the doctrine tries to teach. You can attempt to ignore the Christian meaning underlining the book, maybe because you think it's "cool" or "neat" to hate religion, but Harry Potter isn't about indoctrinating you into the Church, but making sure kids grow up in the best possible way.

The triumph of Harry Potter is that Rowling manages to get past the "watchful dragons" of the population with a generally fascinating tale, so the message is subliminal. There's nothing wrong with that. Personally, those I think she just wants people to learn those virtues. Picking them out as "Oh, this is Christianity. Look people, it has virtues of Christianity" just kinda bugs me. I'm pretty sure she didn't have Christianity on her mind the entire time she wrote the books.

Originally posted by ndfreak
frankly i don't care what others think because i like to read the books. If some religious nuts want to say it heresy then thats fine by me.

Only those that are ignorant of the true values that Christianity is trying to teach will say that its heresy

Originally posted by The Phantom
Personally, those I think she just wants people to learn those virtues. Picking them out as "Oh, this is Christianity. Look people, it has virtues of Christianity" just kinda bugs me. I'm pretty sure she didn't have Christianity on her mind the entire time she wrote the books.

Then her Inkling aspirations have won the day and her readers are none the wiser. Your attitude is exactly the "watchful dragon" C.S Lewis once wrote an essay about. People don't like being preached too.

exactly

Originally posted by exanda kane
Then her Inkling aspirations have won the day and her readers are none the wiser. Your attitude is exactly the "watchful dragon" C.S Lewis once wrote an essay about. People don't like being preached too. Yes, I don't like being preached to. But I'm wise in religion as well. Trust me, when you have a friend who works at a church, you learn things. I bet if I wrote a book and it had virtues similar to Christianity, people will say the same thing. But I'm not religious. Would it bother me? Yes.

Vague.

Originally posted by exanda kane
Vague. Oh come on, I was pretty straight forward.

Originally posted by The Phantom
I bet if I wrote a book and it had virtues similar to Christianity, people will say the same thing. But I'm not religious. Would it bother me? Yes.

Oh so many questions.

Jk is a Christian, so directly or indirectly she associates the story with Christian events, such as x-mass gifts, eastern break and so on..

Then, the Jewish and the Muslim religion does not have such mythology as the Christianity has, inherited from the old Greek, Celt, German, Slavic, and Saxon old religion. This very same mythology is present throughout the books, be it in legends, myths, creatures or characters. Harry Potter is a very European product in that sense. I'm sure that it’s not meant to underestimate other nations, religions or groups. But writing, requires sinking deep in your own roots sometimes to find words for the feelings you want to put on paper

And to deny that would be the same if one says that Aladin is not a muslim product, or arabic.

Originally posted by Unicor777
Jk is a Christian, so directly or indirectly she associates the story with christian events, such as x-mass gifts, eastern break and so on.. Doesn't mean she ties everything that happens with the book with Christianity. I celebrate Christmas and Easter and Hanukkah and everything else but doesn't really mean much to me.

I really don't know why Harry Potter is such a big problem to Christians. I mean, isn't the moral of the story the same as the bible? Good against evil? What's wrong with that?

Originally posted by The Phantom
Doesn't mean she ties everything that happens with the book with Christianity. I celebrate Christmas and Easter and Hanukkah and everything else but doesn't really mean much to me.

Well I'm surre it doesn't mean much to you, and I would be suprized if it did, to be honest.

But, when I say Christianity I don't mean just the hollidays, but more the entire envirovment, the social aspec, the habits, values, perceptions

If it helps The Phantom, view the terms Christian and Western as partially interchangable, in this context.

Originally posted by Nickey
I really don't know why Harry Potter is such a big problem to Christians. I mean, isn't the moral of the story the same as the bible? Good against evil? What's wrong with that?

You are right, it shouldn't be a problem but there are fanatics who "protect the faith" by attacking others. The very same thing the bible preaches against

Originally posted by Unicor777
You are right, it shouldn't be a problem but there are fanatics who "protect the faith" by attacking others. The very same thing the bible preaches against

Very Interesting.sly

I would love to continue chating with you ppl, but I have to go to bed, long day tomorrow.
Cheers

Originally posted by Nickey
I really don't know why Harry Potter is such a big problem to Christians. I mean, isn't the moral of the story the same as the bible? Good against evil? What's wrong with that? Now THAT is vague.

Originally posted by The Phantom
Personally, those I think she just wants people to learn those virtues. Picking them out as "Oh, this is Christianity. Look people, it has virtues of Christianity" just kinda bugs me. I'm pretty sure she didn't have Christianity on her mind the entire time she wrote the books.

*what I was trying to say*

She wasn't preaching a sermon as you put it though. She said she regarded C.S Lewis as a mentor, they never actually met by the way, and from all I can see, through use of Christian-Western themes, by use of religous symbolisn and the explicit morality play of Chamber of Secrets, she is attempting to emualte Inkling literature; good books for children with values needed for a good life.

It makes the religous controversy of the "magic" seem so damn ironic.

What's even more ironic is most stories and movies and anything kids watch or read try and make the kids believe in magic. A form of hope of some sort or something.

I never said JKR was preaching a sermon. People take it that way though and I hear about it and it just ruins the books a little.

But the magic of Harry Potter, and say the magic of, sorry to compare these, Dungeons and Dragons, which I know little about, are vastly different. Notice the difference between the world of Hogwart's and the World of Privet Drive. "Magic" is Harry's escape from a dull world of materialist desires, bleak consumerism and people who read the wrong sort of books*. Magic isn't part of the occult in Harry Potter, instead it's a rejection of materialist values, the kinds of values "Christians" should be rejecting.

Dungeons and Dragons is simply about bashing goblins heads in with large clubs and dissolving them with magic. It teaches nothing, but instead acts as a pure escape. While it may not be a kids book per se, there are children's books out there that embellish materialism. Those are the "wrong kinds of books" CS Lewis talks about and which Rowling edifies in the Chamber of Secrets; Tom Riddle's diary.

What Rowling excels at is disguising a moral tale in a teenage fantasty series, with the same engaging action as Dunegons and Dragons or a similar thing.

*Compare Dudley with Eustece Scrubb from one of the Narnia books, forgetton which one.

* Preciselly*

Originally posted by exanda kane
But the magic of Harry Potter, and say the magic of, sorry to compare these, Dungeons and Dragons, which I know little about, are vastly different. Notice the difference between the world of Hogwart's and the World of Privet Drive. "Magic" is Harry's escape from a dull world of materialist desires, bleak consumerism and people who read the wrong sort of books*. Magic isn't part of the occult in Harry Potter, instead it's a rejection of materialist values, the kinds of values "Christians" should be rejecting.

Dungeons and Dragons is simply about bashing goblins heads in with large clubs and dissolving them with magic. It teaches nothing, but instead acts as a pure escape. While it may not be a kids book per se, there are children's books out there that embellish materialism. Those are the "wrong kinds of books" CS Lewis talks about and which Rowling edifies in the Chamber of Secrets; Tom Riddle's diary.

What Rowling excels at is disguising a moral tale in a teenage fantasty series, with the same engaging action as Dunegons and Dragons or a similar thing.

*Compare Dudley with Eustece Scrubb from one of the Narnia books, forgetton which one. Sorry. It may be because it is 4 in the morning when I'm reading this, but all I got out of it is materialism is bad and both Lewis and Rowling show disproving it by writing against it in their books. Is that what you were saying?

Yep, and that's good for 4am (Y)

Ok, so if that's all she is trying to get out why do people have to tie it with Christianity? Why can't it just be people against materialism because they don't like the throught of it.

And we'll also notice that JK Rowling has been very careful NOT to express any religious views, either in public or through her books.

When C.S. Lewis wrote the Chronicles of Narnia, it was extremely clear that the books were a direct allegory to biblicial people. Aslan equaled Jesus, Edmund equaled the world of sinners, the White Witch equaled the devil, etc. He was very open about his faith, in fact, he published many theological works. He was not a person who separated those two things. Whether or not readers take The Chronicles as Christian or not is still up to them; there's certainly no C.S. Lewis standing over their shoulders, forcing them to think one way or another.

However, JK Rowling, I believe, is more trying to instill general virtues and values into the world, some of which happen to correspond with religious doctrine. Some of them don't.

I would argue that the moral of Harry Potter is not "Good v. Evil," but rather "Making the right decision instead of the easy one," or, more importantly, "CHOOSING to make the right decision over the easy one.

The bible, certainly, does not have such a simple moral. The bible doesn't even have a moral, in the definition of the word. It is supposed to be a guidebook for Christians to live by.

Sure, if you stretch things far enough, you can make the connections. You could say that Harry equals Jesus, if you wanted to.

But the same thing could be said for horoscopes. You can twist those things every which way until they "fit" what's going on in your life.

I think it's important to remember that JK did not "set out to write a Christian book," as C.S. Lewis did with his Chronicles, and J.R.R. Tolkein did with his Lord of the Rings (an indirect allegory, where the biblical characters show up in more than on LotR character, sort of like flashes).

So... yes. I don't really have a good way to end this...

Originally posted by siriuswriter
And we'll also notice that JK Rowling has been very careful NOT to express any religious views, either in public or through her books.

When C.S. Lewis wrote the Chronicles of Narnia, it was extremely clear that the books were a direct allegory to biblicial people. Aslan equaled Jesus, Edmund equaled the world of sinners, the White Witch equaled the devil, etc. He was very open about his faith, in fact, he published many theological works. He was not a person who separated those two things. Whether or not readers take The Chronicles as Christian or not is still up to them; there's certainly no C.S. Lewis standing over their shoulders, forcing them to think one way or another.

However, JK Rowling, I believe, is more trying to instill general virtues and values into the world, some of which happen to correspond with religious doctrine. Some of them don't.

I would argue that the moral of Harry Potter is not "Good v. Evil," but rather "Making the right decision instead of the easy one," or, more importantly, "CHOOSING to make the right decision over the easy one.

The bible, certainly, does not have such a simple moral. The bible doesn't even have a moral, in the definition of the word. It is supposed to be a guidebook for Christians to live by.

Sure, if you stretch things far enough, you can make the connections. You could say that Harry equals Jesus, if you wanted to.

But the same thing could be said for horoscopes. You can twist those things every which way until they "fit" what's going on in your life.

I think it's important to remember that JK did not "set out to write a Christian book," as C.S. Lewis did with his Chronicles, and J.R.R. Tolkein did with his Lord of the Rings (an indirect allegory, where the biblical characters show up in more than on LotR character, sort of like flashes).

So... yes. I don't really have a good way to end this... Couldn't have been put better.

Originally posted by The Phantom
Couldn't have been put better.

Yes, I do have a way of doing that, don't I?

Originally posted by siriuswriter
Yes, I do have a way of doing that, don't I? Sometimes.

Originally posted by siriuswriter
And we'll also notice that JK Rowling has been very careful NOT to express any religious views, either in public or through her books.

And she was wise not too.



She certainly is, but by naming C.S. Lewis as a "genius" and admitting that she could not be in a room with a Narnia book and not sit down and read it, she has named him a sort of mentor. While it is certainly obvious that she did not set out to write a "Christian" book, her traditionalist views have obviously influenced her writing. She set out to write Inkling literature and she has. It's wonderful.



Is that not the very virtue of the Bible itself? That the world is not good and evil, that some of the plights are simply a story of temptation? Harry Potter, despite it's alleged "sloppy writing" seems to explore all kinds of themes, from good and evil, fighting over a neccesity, to a depiction of the "easy path".



I don't see that conenction.



It's very important to remember that. The morals, virtues and viewpoints are built on foundations of traditionalist western culture and are imprints of Christianity, whether intentionally or purely instinctive, are present in the Harry Potter series. I would consider myself agnostic, yet simply because "I'm not sure". I however, can admire greatly the artistry involed with the series. Through that you can really see the brilliance of her artistic allegory, the use of symbolism from the "ancient days" et cetera, et cetera and a foil to her critics who believe Harry Potter is sloppery written.

So... yes. I don't really have a good way to end this...

whoever denounces harry potter in the name of jesus christ is retarded.

OK bear with me I will get to my point I promise lol, first off Harry Potter is pure Fiction I have never understood why people of certain religions state its evil, second its purley good fighting evil, its what people think is evil that is the problem in most cases. That is usually what starts it off a main factor in fear is that humans in general fear what they do not understand, in relation to religion has anyone watched Dogma( which was written by a devout catholic I might add)? if yes they will understand this concept basically it is good to have beliefs and live morally sound but the problems start due to what another classes as wrong an Idea is better because an Idea can be changed and modernised but a belief vant, it drives me insane that there have been more wars and bloodshed about what each religion believes than anything else surley God or any gods depending on who believes what ( not flaming any religion this is just an opinion) would not want the people in his or their care to die suffering and needlessly. life is for living not fighting over who is right in their beliefs and who is wrong as long as you have good morals it doesnt really matter what you believe in as long as you can believe.

Like in the 5th book said if I can remember the quote right lol basically united we stand divided we fall if everyone came together and tried to fight against the problems this wold has instead of blaming each other for starting it off then we could sort the problems out before it jumps up and bites our future children on the ass and they blame us for doing nothing about it.

This is really stupid, the bible is as much a fictional story as Harry Potter is. Yet some people follow it as if it is the law.

Originally posted by Dresta
This is really stupid, the bible is as much a fictional story as Harry Potter is. Yet some people follow it as if it is the law.
Statement: Dresta's statement has been noted.

Statement: Dresta's statement has been backlogged due to irrelevance to the topic and being devoid of any redeemable content.

Statement: Christianity ties the use of real magic and the occult heavily to demons/demonic forces.

Statement: The use of real magic is seen as a "gateway" into the lives of people for demons/demonic forces in Christianity.

Statement: In the Harry Potter series, magic is prevalent throughout the books.

Conclusion: Some Christians believe that reading the books introduces the reader to the occult and thus opens the door to demons/demonic forces.

Originally posted by FeceMan
Statement: Dresta's statement has been noted.

Statement: Dresta's statement has been backlogged due to irrelevance to the topic and being devoid of any redeemable content.

Statement: Christianity ties the use of real magic and the occult heavily to demons/demonic forces.

Statement: The use of real magic is seen as a "gateway" into the lives of people for demons/demonic forces in Christianity.

Statement: In the Harry Potter series, magic is prevalent throughout the books.

Conclusion: Some Christians believe that reading the books introduces the reader to the occult and thus opens the door to demons/demonic forces.
Your such a moron, there's no such thing as 'real magic', it doesn't exist, it is FICTIONAL. The Catholic church are a bunch of ****ing morons.