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I'm not certain how strong she is, so I decided to make a gauntlet thread with her. She gets full rest, fights take place in theed palace. Who takes her down?

1. Qui-Gon Jinn
2. Anoon Bondara
3. Darth Maul
4. ROTS Obi-Wan
5. Count Dooku (AOTC)
6. Ulic Qel-Droma (in his prime)
7. Yoda (ROTS)
8. DE Luke
9. Kyp Durron (while being possessed by exar Kun's spirit)
10. Makes it

she might lose to qui-gon, but i think she would probably end at anoon

Originally posted by tulakhordpwns
she might lose to qui-gon, but i think she would probably end at anoon
Really? That soon? But you believe that Jacen could beat Exar Kun, and she was beating Jacen in their duel (you told me about the advantages she had in the duel, but still, even with those advantages, if she can nearly best someone who is stronger than Kun she has to be able to get to Kenobi at least).

I would say she falls at 5.

^ That's kinda what I was thinking, too.

Jacen in no way shape or form could defeat Exar Kun. With that said, she will go down hard against Maul.

She goes down to Maul.

Originally posted by darthsith19
Really? That soon? But you believe that Jacen could beat Exar Kun, and she was beating Jacen in their duel (you told me about the advantages she had in the duel, but still, even with those advantages, if she can nearly best someone who is stronger than Kun she has to be able to get to Kenobi at least).

on a neutral site she is nothing compared to Kun

How do you compare fighters of different time periods?

Mara's strength doesn't lie in any prodigious ability with the Force or with a lightsaber. Her true measure of skill lies in her ability to think. As Palpatine's Hand, she's had numerous assignments involving assassination, stealth, and deception, which was what she used to defeat Jacen. She is an enormously clever fighter. She'll use anything and everything available to her to win, like Lumiya . The problem is, that makes it hard to hypothetically debate where she'll fall.

To be quite honest, her skill is likely less than that of Qui-Gon. She might not even beat him.

the average fighters of all eras are going to be roughly the the same, they are still using the same weapon and many of the same forms

Mara Jade is a pretty good fighter for her time, but the people listed are some of the best for their era

Hmm, hard to say. He may not even able to pass through Qui-Gon... As much, i think she can go until Maul. I doubt she could beat Vader with her lightsaber and Maul is at least as good as him. I also find unlikely that Obi-Wan, a master in defense and the one who actually beat Anakin in his prime (the only person that can say it) would lose to her.

At best, she goes down at 3.

she will fall at 2

What is this bullshit about Jade falling to Qui-Gon? Lack of experience? Lack of skill, or power? She almost managed to kill Jacen, the guy who half of you think could magically kill f***ng Exar Kun. Yet she can't beat an above average Jedi Master who she's actually older than? She has vastly more combat experience than almost any PT Jedi, Yoda aside. She's quite literally a strategic genius, given that she's managed to outfight and overcome opponents either more powerful or more inherently skilled than her. And she also happens to be one of the premiere melee combatants of her era. Hell, I'm led to believe that she almost killed Jacen, a much younger, stronger, and more powerful enemy, in a brawl? Seriously people, talk about not giving enough credit.

Now, this is only going to take her so far. Assuming she's in an area where she can hide and mask her presence well enough, I'd say she might, might be able to make it to Dooku. Qui-Gon shouldn't be overwhelmingly difficult, given that he doesn't exactly excel at anything in particular. Anoon Bondara is probably a formidable lightsaber duelist, but I'd be willing to bet that she could hold her own against him for a while - she's not the most powerful person around, but her skill and quick-thinking will probably be able to get her past the decidedly less aggressive and brutal Jedi.

But Maul is a different question. Given that he's considered one of the best assassins and martial artists around, he's certainly not going to be dispatched as easily as a less aware and less experienced opponent. Now, I'm not up to date on the exact details on the fight between Jacen and Mara, so if anyone could fill me in on that - bias not included - I'd be grateful. I believe she got into a very physical, very gritty brawl with Jacen, hand-to-hand, and close saber-combat. One key thing she has going for her here is that she can mask her presence in the Force very well, and can obviously hide her physical presence like no other - years of espionage and assassin training can do that. So, she might be able to get into cover, maybe lash out a few times to piss him off, keep him from thinking clearly. She would probably make herself seem weak, or act as if she's running away, so as to make him cocky and irrational. And then, she would strike. We already know that Mara's a patient and calculating warrior, while Maul's a hotheaded, arrogant animal. Fogging up his mind and playing head games with him as only a Jedi Master/Assassin/Emperor's Hand could do would probably put the odds in her favor. Personally, I think if she played her cards right she could past him. If not, he might be able to overwhelm her in a lightsaber duel, melee monster that he is.

Assuming she does get past him, I'm not sure she'd take out Obi-Wan. In lightsaber combat, without the application of more offensive Force powers like choke or lightning, and truly bitchy use of the environment - chucking things at him, hurling shattered window glass ala Voldemort, etc - she'd probably never be able to pierce his defense. But the above things aren't beyond her, and we know she's willing to do whatever is necessary to make something happen, so it's possible.

When she gets to Dooku of course, she's completely f***ed. The guy has pure power on his side, the kind that she most likely doesn't. Mara doesn't have a prayer in a duel, she most certainly can't beat him in a Force contest, and given that he too mastered the technique of masking oneself in the Force, she's probably lost one of her biggest advantages. Not to mention this time, she's facing the most ruthless motherf***er on this gauntlet.

Now, I'm sure some of you will look at this and think of my argument for Maul, but Dooku has several key things going for him here that Maul doesn't. For one, his lightsaber skills are solidly above Mauls. They aren't too far apart, in my opinion, not enough for a pwnage comment. But Maul is not as overwhelmingly superior a duelist as Dooku is - I don't think he'd be able to contend with the likes of Mace or Yoda, personally. So while Mara might be able to hang with Maul in a duel, she's definitely toast with Dooku. Second, there's the Force issue. A lot of you will argue that Maul is indeed an accomplished Force user and Dark side practitioner, but whether that's true or not he is Dooku's complete inferior in that department. As in Dooku would make him his ***** in a Force battle. So while Mara could definitely hang with Maul here, maybe even get the better of him, Dooku would annihilate her. Lastly, there's the whole Dooku/Maul mindset. Dooku is cold, efficient, and as I've said before, ruthless. If he finds himself against a dangerous enemy he's not going to toy around with them and risk his life. Unlike Maul, who could've easily walked away from Naboo victorious, but instead managed to get sliced in half by a guy hanging from a pit. Maul is way more likely to screw up even if he gets Mara on the ground, defenseless and unarmed. Like, he'd probably toss away his lightsaber and try to rape her, in which case she'd immediately rip his balls off and stuff them down his throat. Dooku? He'd fry her. And laugh. And not give her any chance to make a comeback. So without a doubt, while she may, and probably could make it up here, she's definitely not moving on to 6.

--

God, damn was that long.

I think she may not even get passed Qui-Gon, really.

Since you all did such a fantastic job of backing your stance.

Faunus, in sheer fairness: Mara did not engage Jacen in immediate combat since she knew he'd be capable of killing her...she lured him on a game of cat and mouse and used the technique of masking her presence in the Force so Jacen would be unable to find her and ambushed him....she pretty much turned the whole thing on her terms.

I'm agreeing with you for the most part, but her nearly killing Jacen isn't a direct testament to her straight up dueling abilities, though she's a hell of a hand to hand fighter.

also, you don't give Maul enough credit there: While Mara was trained as an assassin, Maul was trained the same with full attention from Palpatine. While he has his moments of savagery, he's also an extremely cunning and calculating enemy...he's shown some decent abilities in regards to stealth. I'd even argue Maul's loss on Naboo was due to actually facing an opponent inferior opponent, someone he didn't figure could get the better of him, so he took his time.
: Someone like Anoon Bondara he moved to finish as fast as he could, but a weaponless padawan was something to be played with. And Mara herself was trained by Palpatine...Maul would probably recognize her as a dangerous opponent. If he had her helpless, he'd move for a very swift kill.

I'd say Mara makes it to Maul and if she gets past him, then she falls to Dooku. Care to discuss anything I posted, Faunus?

Oh, PS: If you want, I could give you most of the Mara/Jacen fight details

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Faunus, in sheer fairness: Mara did not engage Jacen in immediate combat since she knew he'd be capable of killing her...she lured him on a game of cat and mouse and used the technique of masking her presence in the Force so Jacen would be unable to find her and ambushed him....she pretty much turned the whole thing on her terms.Which is why I think she could get to Dooku in the firsts place. She's capable of completely outhinking almost any of her enemies to turn a battle in her favor.

Hence my thinking she can't rely on purely saberwork to best anyone but maybe Qui-Gon. The other four are just too good in that department.

Well, if Maul would actually recognize Mara given that she was born sixteen years after his death. But that's why I pointed out that it's only if she can get past Maul that she could make it to Dooku. The guy's a beast, so it'd be fair for her to lose to him after a great fight, but she has three times his experience and just as much training, albeit in a far greater number of fields. So I think she could take it.

Totally agree.

That'd be great, yeah.

Originally posted by Faunus
Which is why I think she could get to Dooku in the firsts place. She's capable of completely outhinking almost any of her enemies to turn a battle in her favor.
Well, Theed palace isn't exactly 'dark catacombs of Planet X' that she was able to fight Jacen in so there's a bit that's up in the air...

Yeah, agreed. Though Mara, given her years of marriage to Luke "Sabergod" Skywalker is probably no slouch herself....hell, when she was practically dying of a horrible disease, she was able to give a very skilled Yuuzhan Vong warrior a fight and ended up killing him.


I was a little less than clear, my mistake;
I mean, a lot of what Palpatine taught Mara about stealth and intrigue, he definitely would have taught to Maul when he was training him, so a lot of what Mara knows, Maul'd probably have a one-up on her at the moment.
And Maul, to his credit, did take on Anoon Bondara, with much more experience and probably as much training-given the acknowledgment as the Order's likely Battlemaster, given Cin's assuming the position the same year of Anoon's death and Anoon's skill, and destroy him completely, so I wouldn't put the experience as too great a factor.
Mara could take it, no questions, but in my mind, it'd become a cat and mouse game as the two hide from one another and stalk the other....though if Mara forces a direct confrontation like she tried to Jacen, she is going after someone with enough raw strength to wrestle a Barabel to the ground and break its neck...

I say you need to get IM sometimes, but for the Mara/Jacen fight:

Mara lures Jacen into the Catacombs and ambushes him. They engage in a short saber duel, that ends with Mara pretty much tackling him....both take extremely bad injuries-including stab wounds- but it's really just a down and out brawl, that ends when Mara gets the upper hand and pins Jacen to the ground and raises her vibroblade for the killing blow...and Jacen creates a force illusion of Ben, causing her to hesitate for a split second, allowing Jacen to stab her in the thigh with a poisoned dart.

For a minute he's afraid she'll be able to fight off the poison, but with her already bad injuries she's not able to. Jacen tells her not to fight it and Mara's last words are quite badass:
"You think you've won...but Luke...will crush you. I refuse to let you...destroy the future...for my Ben..."

I despise Jacen. I can't wait for the book in which Luke gives him a thorough assbeating. He's Anakin 2.0 -- only worse since he has no excuse for ignorance of the dark side.

Anyways, yeah. Mara ambushes him, collapses a tunnel on him, and they end up in a brawl, where here 50-something-year old body manages to beat the shit out of his. The omniscient narrator does note that her Force powers are "crude" compared to his. But she's simply so intelligent and skilled.

She and Lumiya have a catfight earlier in that book, too. It's deadly. All the Emperor's Hands must be fighting geniuses.

Originally posted by Faunus
Meh. It go either way. But theoretically. . .
Indeed, indeed.

It's entirely possible, though Maul's not exactly a slouch in the Force department himself...if Maul were a dumb brute, I'd agree Mara could take him, but given that Maul'd presumably recognize her abilities, he could indeed give Mara serious problems

Jacen's a pretty evil SOB by all accounts...

Care to hear what Luke does to Lumiya when he thinks she murdered Mara?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
It's entirely possible, though Maul's not exactly a slouch in the Force department himself...if Maul were a dumb brute, I'd agree Mara could take him, but given that Maul'd presumably recognize her abilities, he could indeed give Mara serious problemsAgreed.

Seems like a *****. I want him to die.

Chops off her head, right? Luke's still mildly cool, at least. Does Lumiya put up a fight?

Originally posted by Faunus
Chops off her head, right? Luke's still mildly cool, at least. Does Lumiya put up a fight?

She tries.

Luke essentially beats the shit out of her, and moves her "like a battering ram" off the edge of a cliff. He reaches out and grabs her arm and tells her: "I'd never let you fall..."

And then he decapitates her.

Dope. He finds out later that she's not responsible, I'm guessing. Does he know Jacen's the one yet?

Originally posted by Faunus
Dope. He finds out later that she's not responsible, I'm guessing. Does he know Jacen's the one yet?

No.

Which is stupid, but hey! Luke's never been a genius.

He assumes, now, it's another Dark Jedi. I keep forgetting her name.

No, which is why LOTF sucks. They'll probably play a game of cock tease for the next 3 books until Invincible, in which Luke better kill off Jacen, cause if it's the other way around, George Lucas is getting my foot up his ass.

Originally posted by Faunus
Dope. He finds out later that she's not responsible, I'm guessing. Does he know Jacen's the one yet?

It's a pretty sweet scene...Lumiya's outmatched by Luke in more or less every way. Luke now thinks it was Alema Rar who killed Mara-he doesn't want to let himself believe Jacen's pure evil

Ehh... I still don't think Jacen's pure evil. He's a deluded little freak. Mara said Jacen is as "vile" as Palpatine, but she doesn't realize how messed up he really is.

How many murders does he need to plan and commit before we can classify him as evil?

A lot more than what he's done already. He's just comfortably confused, like a bisexual girl claiming to be a lesbian.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
How many murders does he need to plan and commit before we can classify him as evil?

I didn't say he wasn't evil. I said he wasn't pure evil.

She goes down hard at kenobi. That said, she might not even make it past 1.

Originally posted by Gideon
No.

Which is stupid, but hey! Luke's never been a genius.

He assumes, now, it's another Dark Jedi. I keep forgetting her name. Luke's stupidity...it's one of the only things that has ever made me literally infuriated at SW authors. There are levels of stupidity expected from all mortals but we're talking about authors that can't make the greatest Jedi who ever lived demonstrate the competence of...well...anybody.

If I were writing the books, Luke would only be outsmarted by fast paced, intelligent plans and readers would never get bored waiting for Luke to do something or think something smart. All the writers need to give their work to Matthew Stover. He's the one responsible for most of the popularity of Count Dooku and Mace Windu and perhaps even SW books in general.