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Who wins. This is Ventress when she fought Padawan Anakin.

Asajj from when she fights Padawan Anakin. eh? That's only 4 months into the war. Luke likely takes her but not easily. Now, if this was Obsession Asajj...

Luke, but not easily.

I'm positive that Obsession Asajj is stronger than the Asajj that was introduced in the Clone Wars miniseries, but do we have any idea how much stronger?

Originally posted by Council#13
I'm positive that Obsession Asajj is stronger than the Asajj that was introduced in the Clone Wars miniseries, but do we have any idea how much stronger?
Well, Asajj in the first six months of the war:
- Was owned by Dooku in a duel.
- Stood no chance against Macve Windu even though Mace Windu wasn't trying to kil her (he wasnted to capture her for interrogation)
- Was pretty exactly even with Anakin (4 months after AOTC)


vs.


Obsession Asajj:
- Was actually besting Anakin (30 months after AOTC, 6 before ROTS) until Anakin used the Dark Side.
- Was able to give Kenobi a good fight in this same comic.
- Has bested J'ai Maruk (pretty strong Jedi) and Kit Fisto (one year after AOTC).



So she seems to progress about on the level of Anakin, perhaps slightly less but about the same. That should tell you how much stronger she is in Obsession than in the first few months of the war.

Luke may win.

I am positive Luke will win but I think after a long battle.

Originally posted by darthsith19
Well, Asajj in the first six months of the war:
- Was owned by Dooku in a duel.
- Stood no chance against Macve Windu even though Mace Windu wasn't trying to kil her (he wasnted to capture her for interrogation)
- Was pretty exactly even with Anakin (4 months after AOTC)


vs.


Obsession Asajj:
- Was actually besting Anakin (30 months after AOTC, 6 before ROTS) until Anakin used the Dark Side.
- Was able to give Kenobi a good fight in this same comic.
- Has bested J'ai Maruk (pretty strong Jedi) and Kit Fisto (one year after AOTC).



So she seems to progress about on the level of Anakin, perhaps slightly less but about the same. That should tell you how much stronger she is in Obsession than in the first few months of the war.

Okay, point well taken. Thanks.

Luke will take it

True, but Asajj didn't exactly have very good training, either, and despite having little training, Luke still got strong very quickly.




Wait, what did he do with the Force? Oh yeah, he chokes two Gamorrean Guards at once. Have we ever seen Vader, or anybody else for that matter, choke more than one person at a time?



When did he mind trick Gamorrean Guards? I remember him Force Choking them at the same time, but not mind tricking them.


1. We can't say for sure that was his first duel, he probably sparred with Yoda, maybe Obi-Wan.

2. And the baseball bat style has proven very effective, hasn't it? When enraged, he bested Vader in saber combat, and I daresay Vader is a greater saber wielder than Asajj is.


Not very much. Also, PoD Bane received far less than she had, yet he'd pwn her, so lack of training doesn't mean someone would lose.


No more so than CW Asajj is. Asajj has hardly ever fought before the CW Cartoon.


If I remember correctly, Palpatine feared ESB Luke, and Vader called ESB Luke's saber skills "Most impressive", which is better than "impressive". And that's ESB Luke, ROTJ Luke is even stronger. And remember, in Dark Rendezvous, Sidious tells Dooku that he would kill Asajj if it were up to him, and in Obsession, Dooku does kill Asajj for failing him to many times.




Agreed, however, I am not debating Obsession Asajj vs. Luke. I'm debating her when she fought Padawan Anakin (in the cartoon), so those future battles have nothing to do with this thread. That's like saying "And remember, this was Luke before he took out DE Sidious, pwnd Lomi Plo and curbstomped Lumiya".


Unfortunately, what she became doesn't matter. what she was at the time of the cartoon is all that matters. Oh, yes, people were dropping like flies, but she always either ran from battle and had her droids stop the enemy while she escaped, or won with the help of a lot of droids.


On the contrary, the Asajj in this thread has had a mere 4 months of war experience, while the Luke in this thread has recieved 4 years of war experience (fighting in the Galactic Cival War). Luke fought Vader twice, plus an illusion in the cave. Who did Asajj fight at this point? Dooku and Anakin? And that gives her more fighting experience than Luke?

And yes, Vader didn't want to kill Luke, but, as seen in ESN (and ROTJ when he throws his saber at Luke) he has no problem with hurting the boy, defeating him without killing him. He was also trying his hardest to defend himself when Luke came at him enraged, and failed to do so. Could Asajj have gotten past Vader's defenses? I think not.


So then you believe Asajj could take down Vader in a saber duel? Obsession has a chance, but Asajj 4 months into the war would go down hard.

Damn. I have the Versus Forum saved under favorites, and I only use KMC for the Religion forum now, but... Oh well. Just know that the Versus Forum...

"Your skills are complete. Indeed, you are
powerful, as the Emperor has foreseen."

Asajj would win, as DS19 said she fought Anakin well 6 months before ROTS, she lost, but she was a decent fight for him.

...Darthsith, I believe you know full well how ridiculous this sounds. The Emperor did not fear Luke Skywalker. He feared what Luke could become -- that he had the potential to destroy the Emperor and all of his laid plans. But to say that he feared Luke as of the Empire Strikes Back or even Return of the Jedi is asinine, since Palpatine effortlessly floored Luke in RotJ.



And again, he was floored by the Emperor.



That's a bit of a spin on it; Darth Sidious tells Count Dooku that Asajj is "reckless" and -- though he will leave Dooku to handle her as he sees fit -- he warns/threatens Dooku that he (Sidious) would crush a disciple who has shown too much 'initiative'.

And I think Asajj survives Dooku's betrayal.

She did survive if i remember right(i think obiwan and anakin had a role to play in her survival) somehow she was able to flee and escape the war was never heard from again.(or atleast for now)

Originally posted by Gideon
...Darthsith, I believe you know full well how ridiculous this sounds. The Emperor did not fear Luke Skywalker. He feared what Luke could become -- that he had the potential to destroy the Emperor and all of his laid plans. But to say that he feared Luke as of the Empire Strikes Back or even Return of the Jedi is asinine, since Palpatine effortlessly floored Luke in RotJ.
Why do i insist on coming back here? Anyway: Palpatine feared what Luke could become, you're right. He feared what he became by Return of the Jedi. Also, your point about Luke getting floored is, at best, misleading. Luke had just been battling his father, which had its obvious mental and physical taxation. Also Luke refused to fight (See: "I will not fight you." ). You also missed the part where despite these, Luke still manages to deflect some of the attack as seen in the Return of the Jedi novel (not the initial blast so it could still happen off-screen, because the novel is within the continuity). Oh yeah, plus Palpatine is the most powerful Sith Lord ever and has been for over two decades at that point.


You're right, I take it all back.




Irrelevant?
She does survive.

Exactly what justification do you have for this claim? Luke as depicted in Return of the Jedi is a mere fraction of what he was about to become. Why on Earth would Palpatine fear RotJ Luke when he's going to be juggling black holes and hiding planets later in his lifetime? Seems quite illogical.



Should it be physically taxing? The end part of the fight lasted 30 seconds at most, and that was after a few minutes of rest. If I could fight like that for 30 seconds without getting too tired, I'm quite sure an enhanced Jedi should be able to as well. As far as mental taxation goes, Luke made peace with himself right before he was overwhelmed (I am a Jedi, like my father before me.) After that line, it would seem his mind was clear and was at peace with the force.



According to the novel, it was the initial blast that was reflected. This directly contradicts what is clearly shown in the movies, thus, this instance of the novel is not in continuity.

Ah, my favorite kind of thread. One with few if any unreasonable characters.

AnakinNihilus made an excellent post, btw. Haven't seen you around before, but kudos for the insight into this thread.

Darthsith:



Correction: Luke had absolutely no training before the events of A New Hope. Asajj had already received some Jedi training from her master before she ever left her homeworld and was included in some heavy battles there. When Dooku arrives on her homeworld, she owns just about everyone who comes before her save the count, and shortly after that she meets up with Obi-wan and for all intents and purposes, ties with him. She then defeats three Jedi not even halfway into the first year of the war. At 12 months, she owns Kit Fisto and Obi-Wan. So really, they're not even comparable.



He Force chokes one after the other, but if that's the epitome of uberism than Qui-Gon Jinn is a ****ing Force God. He can turn off droids by messing with their parts internally and can change the rotating of a die without alerting onlookers.

And really, if you want to compare Force powers between Ventress and Luke, Ventress manipulates a rancor using the Force; Luke had to chuck a rock to hit a button and kill it.



We can't say for sure he did either, so the point is moot. Assertion without proof is not an argument.



Bested? No, I disagree. Vader took a dive in that fight. In the previous fight, when Vader wasn't playing around, Luke was all over the place like a *****. If you seriously think that a self-trained Jedi farmboy can suddenly "best" an elder version of Anakin Skywalker, you are deluded.

And really, you can't tell me that this kind of fighting is "besting" anything other than common sense:

http://i19.tinypic.com/4qh25qw.gif

Look at that last swing. Luke ****ing missed Vader. Granted, it's a bit dark in there, but he's not exactly a two-foot Kate Moss or anything. If Luke in a rage has to practically be in Vader's lap to hit him, I really don't see him outduelling Asajj.



This is a load of shit. Bane was trained by the Brotherhood before he even touched his first lightsaber, and even then he lost a fight. It was Bane's incredible and instinctive use of the Force and the Dark Side which put him head and shoulders above others; his saber ability followed in that wake.



This is simply wrong. Check your sources.



The Emperor feared Luke's power, not the boy himself. This is shown very very clearly in RotJ when he sits calmly while young Skywalker is present and even lets him draw his weapon. Sidious is nowhere near threatened by Luke, especially when he's busy frying him on the floor. I'm not really sure where everyone is perpetuating this myth from, but it's silly.

And "most impressive" is better than 'impressive', but it's hardly a proclamation of uberness. When you dodge a falling gear in Soul Calibur III, the villain is impressed; doesn't mean I can kick his ass, does it?



He's slightly more controlled and has practiced the Force more. I actually like RotJ's more placid Luke approach, and I think he turned out to be a Jedi in Obi-Wan's likeness for his personal philosophy. However, as far as how much stronger he became in duelling, this remains to be substantiated. Certainly in combat, he's not on par with earlier Jedi. Even padawan Obi-Wan and Anakin could survive full out blaster fights without getting singed; not the case for Luke. Also, even underaged padawans technically have more saber training and unarmed combat training than Luke and there's something to be said for real training. I don't care how much potential you have, if you squander it (*cough cough Anakin cough*) or just lose your head, you lose, period.

Luke's fight with Vader was symbolic as well as preplanned by Vader and Sidious. Luke may seemed to have been winning the battle, but he was losing the war against the Dark Side by using it to defeat his father.



Again, you need to doublecheck your sources or read more EU; Ventress after mere months into the war was able to tie with AotC-level Obi-Wan. If you think RotJ Luke can defeat AotC Obi-Wan, I seriously will just stop addressing you on the forums, because that's ridiculous.



* Before the war, she received Jedi training and defeated all threats to her power. He effectively ruled her homeworld with her own ability, and when all came to pay homage to Count Dooku, she floored them all.

* Ten weeks into the Clone Wars, she meets up with Obi-wan Kenobi and ties him. She also kills a Jedi Master and literally "unhands" the master's apprentice.

* She defeats three Jedi by herself three months into the war.

* Shortly after this, she duels Anakin and is winning until he calls on the Dark Side en masse and overpowers her.

This is all within a 4-5 month period of war experience. Luke's "war experience" is laughable; limited mostly to flying starfighters. His actual combat experience against other Force users pales in comparison with Ventress or anyone with even modest Jedi training in her era. And considering Ventress goes on to butcher more Jedi masters, it really undermines your point. She's just better at this stage in the game.



Both times Vader fought Luke he never had the intent to actually murder him. Even at times when he had the boy at his mercy, he let the opening pass and continued to taunt the boy until he could turn him. You think that because Luke got a lucky strike on Vader's shoulder that he's suddenly better? What, and because Vader was trying so damn hard to kill him, right? You have to be kidding me. Vader was perfectly capable of murdering Jedi far more dangerous than Luke with far less effort. Luke was in more danger in the wampa cave.

Bottom line? Ventress outduels Luke and wears his skin as a pelt.

Yep. The clearest example of this is right in Return -- while taking on maybe eight guys (Who couldn't even shoot properly, but I digress), he slips up and gets his mechanical hand dented by a blaster bolt. Had his hand been flesh instead, it would have been the end of him. Luke would not have been able to keep it up without his right hand.

Now, can anyone honestly say that Asajj would have gotten shot if put into that same situation? I mean, this girl consistently slaughters entire platoons of trained, professional Clone Troopers. She's definitely fared better against more skilled/better armed opponents.

Indeed. I'd love to see Luke against a Battle Droid.

Eh? The man is in the middle of a rather large fire fight against all of Jabba's guards.

In Shadows of the Empire, he holds his own against all of Xizor's guards rather nciely

Which seems rather odd, considering his blunder on Jabba's barge. In any case, in Cloak of Deception we see padawan Obi-Wan surviving a wild firefight with mercenaries and nothing but his own saber for cover. And this before he became a Soresu practitioner. Likewise, Anakin as a padawan survived many melee battles (The Approaching Storm) and full-out blaster filled battles (Attack of the Clones). Luke can't really say he can do this without getting his paw burnt.

That was, however, a one time thing. Luke's survived more than a few brawls, including a straight out fight with a rather skilled Dark Jedi (The Great Hunt) without getting too badly hurt.

Where is this now?

The Great Hunt was the first annual of the old Marvel comic series where Luke fights and kills Kharys, a Dark Jedi with a unique aerial fighting style.

He also gets into quite a few scrapes in the recent Empire and Rebellion comics

Is this series canon, because I've never heard of it mentioned in the continuity.

The Marvel series is indeed considered canon and gets a few mentions here and there
I believe Kharys, the Dark Jedi, is getting a mention in the upcoming article "Vader's Legacy" and was mentioned in Wizards of the Coast's online articles on saber combat (For her unique style) and if the series wasn't in continuity, we'd need new origins for Lumiya.

Hm. Don't remember Kharys, unless you're talking about The Mummy. Chris Lee played him once, I think.

Ahhh, Hammer and Universal horror films. Gotta love 'em

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Kharys

The Kharys in question

Chris Lee is secretly God, I'm sure of it.

And really, Kharys is... ick. Anyways, kudos to Luke for defeating her, but it doesn't put him over Ventress for the purpose of the debate.

If I'm recalling correctly, he fought through 3 different "platoons" of Black Sun guards at different occasions. Each platoon with six guys. It's impressive, but certainly not out of Asajj's league.

I wasn't actually arguing for Luke>Asajj, to be honest...it's more of me disputing Luke being a weakling

Not a weakling, but certainly more of a bastard among nobles when you compare him with properly trained Jedi.

Even then, I'd consider him in the mid-level....not a powerhouse, but not a weakling, either, and he gets a lot better shortly after ROTJ

You mean as a ghost?

We're talkin' bout Luke here, right?

You are. I must have had Obi-Wan in mind. I'm multi-tasking and reading material on the side. It's distracting, as you can no doubt tell.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
Ah, my favorite kind of thread. One with few if any unreasonable characters.

AnakinNihilus made an excellent post, btw. Haven't seen you around before, but kudos for the insight into this thread.

Darthsith:



Correction: Luke had absolutely no training before the events of A New Hope. Asajj had already received some Jedi training from her master before she ever left her homeworld and was included in some heavy battles there. When Dooku arrives on her homeworld, she owns just about everyone who comes before her save the count, and shortly after that she meets up with Obi-wan and for all intents and purposes, ties with him. She then defeats three Jedi not even halfway into the first year of the war. At 12 months, she owns Kit Fisto and Obi-Wan. So really, they're not even comparable.



He Force chokes one after the other, but if that's the epitome of uberism than Qui-Gon Jinn is a ****ing Force God. He can turn off droids by messing with their parts internally and can change the rotating of a die without alerting onlookers.

And really, if you want to compare Force powers between Ventress and Luke, Ventress manipulates a rancor using the Force; Luke had to chuck a rock to hit a button and kill it.



We can't say for sure he did either, so the point is moot. Assertion without proof is not an argument.



Bested? No, I disagree. Vader took a dive in that fight. In the previous fight, when Vader wasn't playing around, Luke was all over the place like a *****. If you seriously think that a self-trained Jedi farmboy can suddenly "best" an elder version of Anakin Skywalker, you are deluded.

And really, you can't tell me that this kind of fighting is "besting" anything other than common sense:

http://i19.tinypic.com/4qh25qw.gif

Look at that last swing. Luke ****ing missed Vader. Granted, it's a bit dark in there, but he's not exactly a two-foot Kate Moss or anything. If Luke in a rage has to practically be in Vader's lap to hit him, I really don't see him outduelling Asajj.



This is a load of shit. Bane was trained by the Brotherhood before he even touched his first lightsaber, and even then he lost a fight. It was Bane's incredible and instinctive use of the Force and the Dark Side which put him head and shoulders above others; his saber ability followed in that wake.



This is simply wrong. Check your sources.



The Emperor feared Luke's power, not the boy himself. This is shown very very clearly in RotJ when he sits calmly while young Skywalker is present and even lets him draw his weapon. Sidious is nowhere near threatened by Luke, especially when he's busy frying him on the floor. I'm not really sure where everyone is perpetuating this myth from, but it's silly.

And "most impressive" is better than 'impressive', but it's hardly a proclamation of uberness. When you dodge a falling gear in Soul Calibur III, the villain is impressed; doesn't mean I can kick his ass, does it?



He's slightly more controlled and has practiced the Force more. I actually like RotJ's more placid Luke approach, and I think he turned out to be a Jedi in Obi-Wan's likeness for his personal philosophy. However, as far as how much stronger he became in duelling, this remains to be substantiated. Certainly in combat, he's not on par with earlier Jedi. Even padawan Obi-Wan and Anakin could survive full out blaster fights without getting singed; not the case for Luke. Also, even underaged padawans technically have more saber training and unarmed combat training than Luke and there's something to be said for real training. I don't care how much potential you have, if you squander it (*cough cough Anakin cough*) or just lose your head, you lose, period.

Luke's fight with Vader was symbolic as well as preplanned by Vader and Sidious. Luke may seemed to have been winning the battle, but he was losing the war against the Dark Side by using it to defeat his father.



Again, you need to doublecheck your sources or read more EU; Ventress after mere months into the war was able to tie with AotC-level Obi-Wan. If you think RotJ Luke can defeat AotC Obi-Wan, I seriously will just stop addressing you on the forums, because that's ridiculous.



* Before the war, she received Jedi training and defeated all threats to her power. He effectively ruled her homeworld with her own ability, and when all came to pay homage to Count Dooku, she floored them all.

* Ten weeks into the Clone Wars, she meets up with Obi-wan Kenobi and ties him. She also kills a Jedi Master and literally "unhands" the master's apprentice.

* She defeats three Jedi by herself three months into the war.

* Shortly after this, she duels Anakin and is winning until he calls on the Dark Side en masse and overpowers her.

This is all within a 4-5 month period of war experience. Luke's "war experience" is laughable; limited mostly to flying starfighters. His actual combat experience against other Force users pales in comparison with Ventress or anyone with even modest Jedi training in her era. And considering Ventress goes on to butcher more Jedi masters, it really undermines your point. She's just better at this stage in the game.



Both times Vader fought Luke he never had the intent to actually murder him. Even at times when he had the boy at his mercy, he let the opening pass and continued to taunt the boy until he could turn him. You think that because Luke got a lucky strike on Vader's shoulder that he's suddenly better? What, and because Vader was trying so damn hard to kill him, right? You have to be kidding me. Vader was perfectly capable of murdering Jedi far more dangerous than Luke with far less effort. Luke was in more danger in the wampa cave.

Bottom line? Ventress outduels Luke and wears his skin as a pelt.

This.

This is an almost 10 year old thread that just got bumped because someone agrees with a really old post...

Originally posted by YousufKhan1212
This is an almost 10 year old thread that just got bumped because someone agrees with a really old post...

Wouldn't be the first time.

Luke handily

Luke.

Luke rapes.