How to make the Games vs Forums a better place

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Superboy Prime
It is no secret that the Games vs Forums needs a revival. It is also no secret a select number of members are trying their best to help make this place better. Here are a couple of suggestions we have come up with. Feel free to add any suggestions.

1. Imagination is a big gift. Lets try to come up with original, never before-seen, matches.

This is possible by either:

a) Bringing characters that have not been debated before. A good example would be KOS-MOS. Bringing up new obscure characters might attract new & old members alike.

However if you're going to introduce a character it would be nice to post a wikipedia link, or any other source, so that we can learn about these characters before starting a debate.

b) Coming up with twists. A good example of a twist would be the Master Chief vs. Cyborg Snake--Solid Snake with Raiden's MGS4 cyborg suit. It's true that we have our personal favorites, and we don't like them to lose...but with a good twist perhaps your character can take victory home.

2. Do not start flame wars and off-topic rant. A big problem here is that threads usually get spammed with off-topic talk and flame wars. It is no surprise to look at a 12 pages long thread with only 1 or 2 pages having actual debates.

IMO a stickied off-topic thread could help us a lot.

3. Like I said earlier I have no problem with fans of a certain character, but if you're going to back your fav. character at least do it in a serious manner. Don't just say "Oh yes Hayabusa wins because the l33t Ninja ROFLLOLOMGWTFBBQ!!!1111" It is a poor tactic that usually starts the dreaded flame wars.

How to have a serious debate you ask?

a) Well for starts try to enter the debate with an open mind. Hard to do I know, but with practice it is possible.

b) When it all comes down to it Feats > speculation. Search for feats that your character has accomplished. If possible post these feats so that we can see them with our own eyes.

A good source for 3d characters is youtube. Chances are that kickass cut-scene from the game that you love so much has already been uploaded on youtube. http://www.youtube.com

Another good source for 2d characters is the Video Game Musseum. It has endings as well as intros and the like for a host of 2d games from Atari to the PSX. http://www.vgmuseum.com/

All of this was discussed with a handful of members in another thread, but I thought a dedicated thread for this would be more helpful.

Do note this thread is dedicated for this topic only, and you will be reported if you spam it with non-relevant stuff.

Feel free to post anything you think would help our cause.

Lana I beg you to keep this thread alive. At least for a while to see what we can discuss and find out if it might change anything.

Guilty Gear
Originally posted by Superboy Prime
A good source for 3d characters is youtube. Chances are that kickass cut-scene from the game that you love so much has already been uploaded on youtube. http://www.youtube.comLOL laughing out loud

I wouldn't be surprised if this was locked simply because it isn't a versus match.

Superboy Prime
Originally posted by Guilty Gear
LOL laughing out loud

I wouldn't be surprised if this was locked simply because it isn't a versus match.

Have you got any suggestions, Guilty? Lets talk about it. If it gets closed we won't get another chance.

Lana
I'd have preferred if you asked me before creating a thread like this.

Anyway.

I had been considering making an 'anything vs.' thread, like Captain REX allowed in the SW Vs recently. I took a look at that thread, though, and it was closed after about 5 pages because it became such a jumbled up disorganised mess that was near-impossible to follow. So I'm disinclined to allow a thread like that as I know it'll be even worse here.

Also, just a note, if you're going to post a bunch of videos in a thread, I'd prefer that people link to them, rather than embed them in the post. Same thing with large images. Causing people's computers to lag is a bad thing.

And on the note about bashing/off-topic - there is a report button. I'd greatly appreciate if people used that to report such posts (please do NOT PM me), as I don't catch everything. I sleep occasionally and have a job and like to go out with my friends, so I can't watch the forum constantly.

Sandai Kitetsu
Biggest problem is the debating methods in games versus.

Guilty Gear
Originally posted by Superboy Prime
Have you got any suggestions, Guilty? Lets talk about it. If it gets closed we won't get another chance. Well you pretty much said it all. I would just like to point out that spite threads are generally unappreciated.

And an off-topic thread was asked for, not an anything versus thread.

FortressXRuler
Well, there is a chance that this forum might stay alive. There are a good lot of games being released this year and early next, and these games are going to have alot of new characters(Nariko of Heavenly Sword, Nero of Devil May Cry 4, the unnamed character of Assassins Creed, etc. ) that might bring some more variety to this forum, but it's also up to the users browsing the forums, like you said, adding twists to thier threads(not to overuse twists) not being led off topic, etc. this is a good forum, we just need to re-vamp it, and I hope Lana will notice what were saying, and also try to help keep this thread alive.

Guilty Gear
This should be stickied. 13jockey

Lana
Originally posted by Guilty Gear
Well you pretty much said it all. I would just like to point out that spite threads are generally unappreciated.

And an off-topic thread was asked for, not an anything versus thread.

An anything versus thread WAS asked for not too long ago. Blaxican asked me about it.

As for an off-topic thread, possibly. If it'll keep the off-topic arguing and stuff out of the actual threads, then it'd be a good thing. But there are some people on here who really need to learn what is appropriate to post on KMC and what isn't, and that's why I'm hesitant about it. An off-topic thread would also NOT condone spamming random posts about nothing, either. That'd remain something you shouldn't be doing.

Originally posted by FortressXRuler
Well, there is a chance that this forum might stay alive. There are a good lot of games being released this year and early next, and these games are going to have alot of new characters(Nariko of Heavenly Sword, Nero of Devil May Cry 4, the unnamed character of Assassins Creed, etc. ) that might bring some more variety to this forum, but it's also up to the users browsing the forums, like you said, adding twists to thier threads(not to overuse twists) not being led off topic, etc. this is a good forum, we just need to re-vamp it, and I hope Lana will notice what were saying, and also try to help keep this thread alive.

If you haven't noticed, I'm not only letting this thread live, I've already posted in it stick out tongue I'll probably pin it so it doesn't get buried within a day or two.

I'm also likely going to rewrite the rules for the forum soon. If anyone has any suggestions for that, feel free to let me know in this thread. Just to clarify, though, the "characters must originate in a game" rule will NOT be going anywhere. That doesn't need to be gotten rid of to make it possible to have more variety in matches.

General Kaliero
I'll be pleasantly surprised if this is pulled off. Oh, how I long for the next "Samus vs. Chief" quality thread.

Some rules are necessary for just coming up with the match-ups, I would think. Something like tiers, based on how relatively powerful (or reknowned) a character is. Like, There's no point to a Cloud vs. Wario thread, but Cloud vs. Kratos, sure.

Superboy Prime
I agree. Characters must originate in a game is a good rule. I will be the first to ***** about it being replaced.

FortressXRuler
Thanks 4 not closing this Lana.

Superboy Prime
I forgot to add in my first post that we need to respect our mod.

I am not asking you guys to agree with everything Lana does and become her groupie, but don't just start rabid childish insults to the mod of this forum. Keeping the mod in good mood will benefit us more than you guys think.

Edit I'm going out for a while but...I'll be back. *Terminator theme plays.*

Sandai Kitetsu
How about reviving and sticking this thread that everyone worked so hard to make: http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=391188&highlight=respect+street+fighter

Because people are really clueless to what certain characters can do.

Lana
Originally posted by Superboy Prime
I agree. Characters must originate in a game is a good rule. I will be the first to ***** about it being replaced.

There was a fair amount of drama about it when I first made that rule, even though VG Vs was the last of the Vs forums to switch over to it.

Well, I say "fair amount of drama", it was mostly a handful of posters (most of which never really posted in here) claiming that everyone hated the rule, while a lot of others thought it was great. Once it settled, the quality of the forum did pick up quite a bit and there were a lot fewer 'spite' threads.

It was definitely a hassle to enforce at first, and I still occasionally have to argue with someone who thinks that the rules don't apply to him, but I really do think it's probably one of the most important changes I'd made to this forum.

FortressXRuler
Instead of posting the same character fights over and over, we should do a little research about more characters. That way we can get better debates and less spite and flaming, a good one may be Pit v.s. Megaman, I haven't seen a Pit thread before.

Violent2Dope
One thing in game vs. that pisses me off is that every other thread is a 2D Capcom fighters thread. Those are fine but it eventually get old and can ruin the characters. Another thing alot of us need to work on(like me) is staying on topic. The best example was the Akuma vs. Ayane thread, about nine pages and only the first two involved Akuma and Ayane, the rest somehow became Hayabusa vs. Akuma. Also, I know that there's not really anything that can be substantially done about this, but we need more good debaters.

EDIT: Also Lana I would like to apologize over certain comments I have made about you in a certain thread. I was an immature jerk.sad

BlaxicanHydra
Jerkoff. no expression

But yes, the rivalry that is Ryu/Akuma vs. Ryu Hayabusa vs. Jin vs. *insert random DOA or KOF top tier character that no one cares about here* is a cancer that has spread throughout the forum. Many threads that have none of said characters mentioned somehow get thrown onto that track.

Superboy Prime
Originally posted by BlaxicanHydra
Jerkoff. no expression

But yes, the rivalry that is Ryu/Akuma vs. Ryu Hayabusa vs. Jin vs. *insert random DOA or KOF top tier character that no one cares about here* is a cancer that has spread throughout the forum. Many threads that have none of said characters mentioned somehow get thrown onto that track.

That is bound to happen. What I think we should do once a poster enters that kind of discussion we should inmediately tell them to take it to the respective thread, and if there isn't one then make one.

shin_remy
Question to Lana

Are uncanon feats allowed ?

cause in debates they say, it is not canon bla bla bla.. You can only talk about the character from their own game, and not about the character who also appeared in a game that didn't followed the storyline

so what!! it is a gamecharacter..NOTHING REALLY HAPPEND, cause they don't exist.

shin_remy
i also already posted why this forum sucks

sado's debating style for example, people here don't like his method of debating.

he had much influence here

FortressXRuler
Especially since as soon as someone speaks thier opinion that is kind of wrong, they're getting tore up. this forum is about peoples opinion about game characters, they shouldn't be cursed at.

Guilty Gear
Originally posted by shin_remy
i also already posted why this forum sucks

sado's debating style for example, people here don't like his method of debating.

he had much influence here That's complete and utter bull, and you annoy just about the hell out of everyone here with your horseshit and nonsense.

FortressXRuler
Plzzz don't start anything rash Gear.

Superboy Prime
Originally posted by shin_remy
Question to Lana

Are uncanon feats allowed ?

cause in debates they say, it is not canon bla bla bla.. You can only talk about the character from their own game, and not about the character who also appeared in a game that didn't followed the storyline

so what!! it is a gamecharacter..NOTHING REALLY HAPPEND, cause they don't exist.

But we need to keep things grounded.

If we are allowed to use non-canon material as proof of what a character can do/has fought then things will get out of control.

Ryu fighting Apocalype & Onslaught? Come on.

Superboy Prime
Originally posted by shin_remy
i also already posted why this forum sucks

sado's debating style for example, people here don't like his method of debating.

he had much influence here

That's the way you feel about him...but lets not start pointing fingers and place the blame on others. We are all responsible for what has happened to this forum. Personal attacks will get us no where.

Lazy MFer
I don't mean to be harsh, but I'm going to say what I know many of you are thinking.

Some members attitudes need to be changed, and if they can't do that...they need to go.

To be blunt, some members need to get banned, mainly the ones constantly breaking rules.

Sandai Kitetsu
I saw this coming from a mile away. Superboy Prime, creates a thread addressing a pressing problem regarding games versus. Yet, it barely gets two pages, and already there's flaming with no sreal solutions being offered by any other members. Honestly, I'm not surprised, because you can't get people to care about an issue as small as this one (Excuse my bluntness). Debating here was supposed to be fun, and at the least resonable. But, the moment discussing video game characters becomes a chore and just stops being fun no one will really bother. There's nothing too serious about these debates for anyone to endure page after page of debate because people won't adhere to an opinion. I'm not saying that we should never ever flame. That would be wishful thinking, but at least try to keep your arguments logical.

Originally posted by Superboy Prime
That's the way you feel about him...but lets not start pointing fingers and place the blame on others. We are all responsible for what has happened to this forum. Personal attacks will get us no where.



Fanboys are what killed games versus and until shitty debating/ bad attitudes, and rabbid fan wanking disappears we will always have this problem.

Superboy Prime
There are a couple of members actually interested in this. No one said this is going to be easy, and I'll certainly give it my best until I run out of energy. It's ok to disagree for the most part. We're all human after all and we have different opinions. That said I will not tolerate flame wars/trolling on this thread and I will report without mercy.

Lazy MFer
Originally posted by Sandai Kitetsu
I saw this coming from a mile away. Superboy Prime, creates a thread addressing a pressing problem regarding games versus. Yet, it barely gets two pages, and already there's flaming with no sreal solutions being offered by any other members. Honestly, I'm not surprised, because you can't get people to care about an issue as small as this one (Excuse my bluntness). Debating here was supposed to be fun, and at the least resonable. But, the moment discussing video game characters becomes a chore and just stops being fun no one will really bother. There's nothing too serious about these debates for anyone to endure page after page of debate because people won't adhere to an opinion. I'm not saying that we should never ever flame. That would be wishful thinking, but at least try to keep your arguments logical.





Fanboys are what killed games versus and until shitty debating/ bad attitudes, and rabbid fan wanking disappears we will always have this problem. I still find debating here fun.

But you are 100% right.

I just think the MOD needs to be a little less lenient if she was more strict, we would either have less problems or less posters.

FortressXRuler
Raz should try and help out too... If he can. We need to maintain a stable place here. We should make this forum fun again, not a chore, like what Sandai said, we need to keep smart, fun, and safe debates.

Sandai Kitetsu
We need to listen to what posters who used to frequent this place opinions. Because there's a reason why they left, and yes that means Shin Remy as well.

I've sent some pm's out, to get the word across.

FortressXRuler
If we can hold our temper about other's opinions, there will be less flaming, and a more fun place.

Lana
Originally posted by shin_remy
Question to Lana

Are uncanon feats allowed ?

cause in debates they say, it is not canon bla bla bla.. You can only talk about the character from their own game, and not about the character who also appeared in a game that didn't followed the storyline

so what!! it is a gamecharacter..NOTHING REALLY HAPPEND, cause they don't exist.

Personally, I'm very big on canon. So if it was up to me I'd say canon only.

However, I'm not going to make that a rule. Rather, it will be up to the creator of the match as to what feats are or are not allowed. I will not even restrict this to game feats only - if a character appears in a movie (ie Cloud's Advent Children version), then that is allowable, so long as it is still a character that originated in a video game.

Originally posted by Superboy Prime
There are a couple of members actually interested in this. No one said this is going to be easy, and I'll certainly give it my best until I run out of energy. It's ok to disagree for the most part. We're all human after all and we have different opinions. That said I will not tolerate flame wars/trolling on this thread and I will report without mercy.

I am certainly interested in what you guys want to do to change things around here and I'll help put into effect changes as much as I can. Most of the changes are simply down to the posters in here - such as trying to diversify the matchups that are created, but everything else I'll do all I can to facilitate. I'm even giving you guys a chance to pitch in suggestions for when I rewrite the rules thread.

Originally posted by Lazy MFer
I still find debating here fun.

But you are 100% right.

I just think the MOD needs to be a little less lenient if she was more strict, we would either have less problems or less posters.

I'm not a terribly lenient person. However, I do not and cannot read every single post that is made in here. One thing I have noticed is that very few people in here ever use the report button when someone is causing trouble. Thus I may not catch it, and it'll seem I'm allowing it to be gotten away with, when in reality I just simply don't realize that it's happening.

I'm very willing to work with you guys and I definitely take action against rule-breakers, but you also need to work with me and make sure that I know that these things are happening. I've always urged people to report trouble but so very few actually do so, which thus makes my job very hard.

Sandai Kitetsu
I think we should set guidelines for debating E.G. Logic fallacies should be against the rules.

Lana
Originally posted by Sandai Kitetsu
I think we should set guidelines for debating E.G. Logic fallacies should be against the rules.

If you guys wish to put together some guidelines for debating, then feel free to. I'd think that'd be a great help.

Though you'd also have to be sure to clearly explain what all the logical fallacies are and how to avoid them. Most people here I doubt have had any real training in how to debate, so they may not necessarily realize what they're doing wrong.

FortressXRuler
Agreed.

Who else?
Originally posted by Lana


I'm not a terribly lenient person. However, I do not and cannot read every single post that is made in here. One thing I have noticed is that very few people in here ever use the report button when someone is causing trouble. Thus I may not catch it, and it'll seem I'm allowing it to be gotten away with, when in reality I just simply don't realize that it's happening.

I'm very willing to work with you guys and I definitely take action against rule-breakers, but you also need to work with me and make sure that I know that these things are happening. I've always urged people to report trouble but so very few actually do so, which thus makes my job very hard. MY POINT EXACTLY!!!

Instead of fellow members stooping so low and arguing back in problem situations, we need to hit that little red button, if we really want to make this section a better place, that's ONE BIG way to start helping out, I see Ashtar has already started the Report Button Movement in the Iori VS Haybusa thread.

It sounds hard because I know some times some one says something really stupid and it you really wannna reply, but we all should give it a try.

Sandai Kitetsu
I hit the report button because dudes were discuss oro & Iori despite the fact there is a thread for it already.

FortressXRuler
Thats also what's going on now, the debates are semi on topic, yet after two or three pages, that thread becomes a different thread within a thread. If people wanna speak about how one Xemnas is stronger than Link in a Xemnas v.s. Kratos thread, they should just make a Xemnas v.s. Link thread.

Usual Suspect
I think a really big problem here is instigation.

I mean its cool for posters to gang up on a guy if they feel his/her opinion is wrong.

Ya know, saying stuff like he makes since and you don't is cool, kinda like taking sides

but this is when it gets irritating, when someone insults you and then another member says "pwned" your in encouraging bad behaviour and pouring fuel on the fire.

Also, A LOT of the posters on this forum don't realize that their not really debatin, they're trying to make there opponent look dumb rather than changin the guy's oppinion or simply gettin their point across. Your supposed to want the make the guy, change his mind and see your point of view, not make him want to leave the forum in fear that he'll face ridicule every time he logs in. People here are mean as hell over shit so meaningless, yo.

Bad behaviour shouldn't be tolerated, yo.

FortressXRuler
Agreed, but it's not fair 4 ten people to gang up on a guy.

Sandai Kitetsu
Spamming is a problem as well.

Usual Suspect
No one here really spams do they?

Lana
Originally posted by Usual Suspect
I think a really big problem here is instigation.

I mean its cool for posters to gang up on a guy if they feel his/her opinion is wrong.

Ya know, saying stuff like he makes since and you don't is cool, kinda like taking sides

but this is when it gets irritating, when someone insults you and then another member says "pwned" your in encouraging bad behaviour and pouring fuel on the fire.

Also, A LOT of the posters on this forum don't realize that their not really debatin, they're trying to make there opponent look dumb rather than changin the guy's oppinion or simply gettin their point across. Your supposed to want the make the guy, change his mind and see your point of view, not make him want to leave the forum in fear that he'll face ridicule every time he logs in. People here are mean as hell over shit so meaningless, yo.

Bad behaviour shouldn't be tolerated, yo.

Err, no. Ganging up on people is NOT cool. Saying that you disagree is one thing, but actually ganging up on someone is another and not tolerated because that just leads to bashing.

But otherwise, I agree. A lot of people here are a lot nastier than they have any business being.

Originally posted by Sandai Kitetsu
Spamming is a problem as well.

It is, and it's been one I've been working to curtail lately.

Originally posted by Usual Suspect
No one here really spams do they?

Spam in the sense of advertising other sites, no.

Spam in the sense of posting nonsense over and over in multiple threads, yes.

FortressXRuler
Those girls are pretty, but they're misdirecting the debate. stuff like that gets people banned and leads to less and less people in this forum.

Usual Suspect
Originally posted by Lana
Err, no. Ganging up on people is NOT cool. Saying that you disagree is one thing, but actually ganging up on someone is another and not tolerated because that just leads to bashing.

But otherwise, I agree. A lot of people here are a lot nastier than they have any business being.



Ya know, like a team trying to make one guy change his mind (2 heads work better than one), not everyone gang up and start insulting the guy.

Kinda like Sandai and Triple Six did in the Jeda VS Shadow thread, when they teamed up on Who else?. It wasn't offensive and he eventually changed his mind.

Now what happened in the Ryu VS Ryu Hayabusa thread wasn't cool and is a bad example of team work.

Sandai Kitetsu

FortressXRuler
There is too much misinterpretation on what people say.

TricksterPriest
The forum's biggest problem is in the form of 2 or 3 posters who who dragged the debating downhill and fostered a new style that precluded intelligent debating. We used to have great threads like Gen vs. Gouki or M. Bison vs. Goenitz. Now everything is Ryu Hayabusa, Kratos, Sephiroth or KH stuff. sad

I lay the blame at least partly on Guilty Gears, Sado and another poster who used to frequent here, but hasn't been here in awhile. Banning those 2 would be a major step in the right direction.

2nd: I want plot devices acknowledged under the rules. People like Sado and Guilty gears refuse to acknowledge the existence of the plot device weapon/ability. Like how Orochi has the immunity to everything except Magatama or how the Vigoor Emperor is immune to everything but the True Dragon Sword. In that case, anyone with the proper ability/weapon can win. AND IT IS NOT A FEAT FOR THE CHARACTER IF A PLOT DEVICE WAS USED TO WIN. Examples: Holy being used to stop Meteor in FF7 is a plot device and not a feat for Aeris or Cloud. Whereas Link using the Master Sword to beat Ganon is not a plot device, other than using the sword as a seal in games like Ocarina of Time.

3rd: The idiotic fan-wankery has to end. DOA/Tekken are not and have never been equal to SF/KOF. Fights between them are alright, but it's painfully obvious that SF/KOF are on the whole stronger than DOA/Tekken.

4th: Non-canon versions of characters should be eligible, and up to the discretion of the thread maker. But characters who do not exist period, cannot be argued. Like Hayabusa with the Dark Dragon Blade, or Jinpachi at his max, or Devil Jin from the ending of Tekken 5. There's no way to debate them and they just start fights and flame wars. Whereas, someone like God Rugal or Devil Kazuya are debatable, because they are legitimate characters, even if their status is non-canon, they are still playable.

5th: Like Ashtar said, the logical fallacies need to be kicked. You can't argue for example, that because the TDS's plot device killed the VE, that it can one-shot Orochi.

That's all for now.

Violent2Dope
Originally posted by shin_remy
Question to Lana

Are uncanon feats allowed ?

cause in debates they say, it is not canon bla bla bla.. You can only talk about the character from their own game, and not about the character who also appeared in a game that didn't followed the storyline

so what!! it is a gamecharacter..NOTHING REALLY HAPPEND, cause they don't exist. No, we shouldn't. An excellent example would be Dante, we should only debate his appearances in the DMC games, because it shows his real power, whereas in a game I think it's called "Nocturne" which I heard about from a KMC member Dante is able to fight with universe destroying demons or sumthin and is at or maybe above DBZ level, and I'm almost positive that game is noncanon.

Usual Suspect
Originally posted by Sandai Kitetsu
thumb up Great Job!

But there is one small problem, if you Apply all parts to all those rules, wont this section get kinda boring.

Violent2Dope
Actually TP, I think Link beating Ganon is PIS in it's purest form, and I see more 2D Capcom fighters threads than anything. And so far every Kratos thread I have debated in has been a good debate.

Sandai Kitetsu

Usual Suspect
Can we ban 2D Capcom fighters, no one likes them and they only cause problems.

Sandai Kitetsu
Originally posted by Usual Suspect
thumb up Great Job!

But there is one small problem, if you Apply all parts to all those rules, wont this section get kinda boring.

Better than it getting stupid, and bad logic is never fun

Originally posted by Usual Suspect
Can we ban 2D Capcom fighters, no one likes them and they only cause problems.
No

FortressXRuler
Use more versatility to make better thrads, I barely see characters like Jak, Ratchet, etc. characters that don't have such a long resume of being used dry.

BlaxicanHydra
Xenogears 131

Sandai Kitetsu
Originally posted by TricksterPriest
The forum's biggest problem is in the form of 2 or 3 posters who who dragged the debating downhill and fostered a new style that precluded intelligent debating. We used to have great threads like Gen vs. Gouki or M. Bison vs. Goenitz. Now everything is Ryu Hayabusa, Kratos, Sephiroth or KH stuff. sad

I lay the blame at least partly on Guilty Gears, Sado and another poster who used to frequent here, but hasn't been here in awhile. Banning those 2 would be a major step in the right direction.

2nd: I want plot devices acknowledged under the rules. People like Sado and Guilty gears refuse to acknowledge the existence of the plot device weapon/ability. Like how Orochi has the immunity to everything except Magatama or how the Vigoor Emperor is immune to everything but the True Dragon Sword. In that case, anyone with the proper ability/weapon can win. AND IT IS NOT A FEAT FOR THE CHARACTER IF A PLOT DEVICE WAS USED TO WIN. Examples: Holy being used to stop Meteor in FF7 is a plot device and not a feat for Aeris or Cloud. Whereas Link using the Master Sword to beat Ganon is not a plot device, other than using the sword as a seal in games like Ocarina of Time.

3rd: The idiotic fan-wankery has to end. DOA/Tekken are not and have never been equal to SF/KOF. Fights between them are alright, but it's painfully obvious that SF/KOF are on the whole stronger than DOA/Tekken.

4th: Non-canon versions of characters should be eligible, and up to the discretion of the thread maker. But characters who do not exist period, cannot be argued. Like Hayabusa with the Dark Dragon Blade, or Jinpachi at his max, or Devil Jin from the ending of Tekken 5. There's no way to debate them and they just start fights and flame wars. Whereas, someone like God Rugal or Devil Kazuya are debatable, because they are legitimate characters, even if their status is non-canon, they are still playable.

5th: Like Ashtar said, the logical fallacies need to be kicked. You can't argue for example, that because the TDS's plot device killed the VE, that it can one-shot Orochi.

That's all for now.

1) I've had problems with both Guilty Gear & Sado in the past. Even though I disagree with certain things they have said there is no reason to ban them. Like I said, just report logic fallacies since they ruin the quality of debates.

2) Plot devices are not banned, but they've become the staple of logic fallacies. Too many times I've heard crap like: TDS beat vigor who is god, and so that makes hayabusa god for having said blade.

Once again, bad logic.

3)It's ironic considering Kof/MK contain the most powerful fighters, but that doesn't mean that none of the fighters from aforementioned games can compete. Are you telling me that Dan cannot be beaten by someone like Wang Jinrei or Heihachi?

4) I bet you this came from Devil Incarnate Ryu.

5) Who claimed that?!

Violent2Dope
MK fighters are actually pretty weak, but that's off topic. Onaga could probably beat someone lke Sakura from SF, but loses to Akuma.

Sandai Kitetsu

BlaxicanHydra
How are MK fighters weak confused

And TP naming names isn't going to help, at all. Baning members also won't help.

FortressXRuler
Banning some members will help alot.

Sandai Kitetsu
Originally posted by Violent2Dope
MK fighters are actually pretty weak, but that's off topic. Onaga could probably beat someone lke Sakura from SF, but loses to Akuma.

I disagree, but I'm not willing to go off-topic for that.

BlaxicanHydra
No it won't, because they'll come back as sock/trolls and spam the forums. Look at The-Judge and Kupo_Avalanche.

Sandai Kitetsu
Trolls should be ignored, and we should just enforce logic.

BlaxicanHydra
It's hard to ignore trolls when they spam all capps sentences with only cuss words in them and post pictures of old naked people.

Violent2Dope
I didn't have too big a prob wit Kupo, to be honest I thot he was funny. But this place is kinda better without him I admit.

FortressXRuler
Yes I've seen what those two have done, but all in all, banning some members will help, even by a small amount.

Violent2Dope
Originally posted by BlaxicanHydra
post pictures of old naked people. I HATED that guy.

FortressXRuler
That was nasty.

Sandai Kitetsu
There will always be trolls, banning them won't really stop them.

Violent2Dope
Yeah all we can do is ignore them. I'm just glad luk_im_uber stayed out of game versus.

FortressXRuler
So what to do about them? If they can't be stopped, what to do?

Sandai Kitetsu
Originally posted by FortressXRuler
So what to do about them? If they can't be stopped, what to do?

Put them on your ignore list and report them, nuff' said.

Violent2Dope
I'll just report them.

FortressXRuler
Good Idea.

Sandai Kitetsu

Sandai Kitetsu

Lana
Okay, for starters, guys, please don't name names in here. There's already an air of hostility about this forum as it is, I'd rather not add to it.

That said, if people break rules enough that they need to be warned multiple times, then yes they do deserve a ban and it will happen.

If someone is socking and trolling, Sandai Kitetsu's advice is absolutely what you should do - report them and then put them on ignore, and I will deal with it. Please do not simply start attacking them, as that makes the problem so much worse. They do it for attention, most of the time, and the last thing you should do is give them that attention. Just report and ignore and myself or another mod (if I am not around and they are particularly hostile or vulgar) will handle it.

Superboy Prime
I agree with everything you've said.

FortressXRuler
We shouldn't feed into the will of those people.

shin_remy
1 if it gets offtopic or it changes in a another debate between 2 characters, open a new topic

2. spam will be reported

3. NO ABC logic anymore

there is a reason why many older members are gone..

and those examples that Ashter show are good thumb up

EDIT : Reason why i don't have big discussions anymore is that many new members were claiming different things and if i told my opinion i was always attacked!!

Superboy Prime
ABC should not be discarded. Just not presented as 100% proof of why a character wins.

Sandai Kitetsu
Why should A>B>C be needed in a verus? It is single handeley the main culprit behind off-topic debates and it's illogical in the long run.

shin_remy
Originally posted by Superboy Prime
ABC should not be discarded. Just not presented as 100% proof of why a character wins.

what i mean is, downgrading a character where youre debating against and overrating the character who you support

and i think that the ''respect streetfighter, Megaman, MGS and others'' thread should be alive again

Sandai Kitetsu
Originally posted by shin_remy


and i think that the ''respect streetfighter, Megaman, MGS and others'' thread should be alive again

Co-signed

FortressXRuler
Agreed.

shin_remy
Originally posted by Sandai Kitetsu
Why should A>B>C be needed in verus? It is single handeley the main culprit behind off-topic debates and it's illogical.

ooh yeah that is also one of the reasons why discussions lead to other offtopic disscusions

cause the whole cast of the game joins the debate (KOF) (SF Alpha 3 ) EXAMPLE


''i'm not good in explaining things sorry bout that''

Sandai Kitetsu
I for one am tired of reading: "Iori pwns God like Orochi, and because of that he can beat Ryu"

Superboy Prime
Originally posted by shin_remy
what i mean is, downgrading a character where youre debating against and overrating the character who you support

and i think that the ''respect streetfighter, Megaman, MGS and others'' thread should be alive again

I am against under rating and over rating characters as well.

A new better organized version should come forth.

Sandai Kitetsu
You want use to write all those points over?

Superboy Prime
I don't know. It would just be ideal to make it organized. Not really saying it has to be like that.

shin_remy
i think it is also better to tell what versions of the characters are used, from what game.

and if uncanon feats are allowed etc

to avoid misunderstandings

Sandai Kitetsu
Originally posted by shin_remy
i think it is also better to tell what versions of the characters are used, from what game.

and if uncanon feats are allowed etc

to avoid misunderstandings
A common thing people tend to forget.

shin_remy
Major Snafu is a great help here i think on this forum

he opened many good threads, some were weird..

and i don't think people here should have attacked him with

OH MY GOSH A SPITE THREAD!!

cause he is the one or was the one who made many topics, good ones i think, he should continue with this

Sandai Kitetsu
The only person that attacked him was cloud/eclipse/Xenogears/Guilty Gear and whatever name he comes up with.

Superboy Prime
About the ABC...I can't really explain...I'll just put an example of my idea

Jin Kazama > Paul Phoenix

Why?

Although Paul has stalemated Jin in the past...Jin has grown more powerful since their first encounter.

Jin > Kazuya in Tekken 4

Jin > Heihachi in Tekken 4

Jin > Jinpachi in Tekken 5

Paul stalemated Kazuya in Tekken

Jin's winning record places him above Paul's.

---

ABC is used to prove how Jin is in another tier.

However just because Jin has beaten Kazuya, Heihachi, Jinpachi/insert new random Mishima; it does not automatically translate to Jin beating characters from another gaming universe.

In this instance actual feats are welcomed.
---

I don't know if I made myself clear...but I hope you guys understand what I'm suggesting.

shin_remy
yeah like

Iori beated Godtiers so he will pwn Ryu

and the godtiers in sf are nothing just like Bison in Sf Alpha 3 who lost from schoolgirls while Iori beated Godtiers that destroyed city's and he took on almost the whole Kof cast

..........pppfft i don't say names but it is obvious who i mean......

Superboy Prime
Originally posted by shin_remy
yeah like

Iori beated Godtiers so he will pwn Ryu

and the godtiers in sf are nothing just like Bison in Sf Alpha 3 who lost from schoolgirls while Iori beated Godtiers that destroyed city's and he took on almost the whole Kof cast

..........pppfft i don't say names but it is obvious who i mean......

*Leashes Shin Remy*

brainchild81
Originally posted by shin_remy
yeah like

Iori beated Godtiers so he will pwn Ryu

and the godtiers in sf are nothing just like Bison in Sf Alpha 3 who lost from schoolgirls while Iori beated Godtiers that destroyed city's and he took on almost the whole Kof cast

..........pppfft i don't say names but it is obvious who i mean...... laughing Yeah. The over & underhyping has to stop

Sandai Kitetsu
Originally posted by Superboy Prime
About the ABC...I can't really explain...I'll just put an example of my idea

Jin Kazama > Paul Phoenix

Why?

Although Paul has stalemated Jin in the past...Jin has grown more powerful since their first encounter.

Jin > Kazuya in Tekken 4

Jin > Heihachi in Tekken 4

Jin > Jinpachi in Tekken 5

Paul stalemated Kazuya in Tekken

Jin's winning record places him above Paul's.

That's not really A>B>C logic, since your missing a third party. Now, if you claimed that " Jin is stronger than Paul because Jin> True Ogre so Jin>True Ogre > Paul"


Then that would be A>B>C logic

Superboy Prime
On a sidenote we need to be careful thought. Restricting everything can make this place worse.

Sandai Kitetsu
Originally posted by Superboy Prime
On a sidenote we need to be careful thought. Restricting everything can make this place worse.

We won't know until we try said rules. Honestly, I believe more rules in certain area's it will allow for a more enjoyable debates. It will be less of a headache to manage debating here and bad Logic is never good, peroid. If we need bad logic to debate than something is wrong and it's not game versus. I see what you mean about not restricting everything, though. I feel the sameway about non-canon material. Video Game characters really do not have much canon showings as oppossed to characters of other manga. The average canon showing for a comic/manga at least is a week and at most a year. Now, with that said, compare that to a Video Game with 1 year at the least and up to 5 years at the most. I hate "scrapping" for feats only to have it shot down due to continuity. Add game restriction, and it's even harder to find feats which is why I propose we favor Logic over continuity. Now, I'm not saying we should grab every non-canon feat we can get are grubby lillte hands on. But, if someone has a legitimate argument supporting a feat then why not use it?

I hate having feats discounted because: "The character never demonstrated it" even though it's clear he can. My favorite argument against this is the aerial hadou. Ryu, for instance, has never demonstrated the ability to perform an aerial hadouken in a canon game, now does that mean he cannot do it?

Superboy Prime
I would say he can do it since he used it in the SF Alpha anime. And according to capcom that is how the fighters fight and what they are capable of.

WO Polaski
The problem that people have on this forum is there hostility, I think. If people could could quit with the "Who has a bigger dick" contests I think the forum would be a lot better off. A lot of people start off just debating, but then two pages later they're arguing just to argue.

Guilty Gear
I can't believe that I gave in to the temptation of refuting some of the bullshit in this post, but here goes.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
The forum's biggest problem is in the form of 2 or 3 posters who who dragged the debating downhill and fostered a new style that precluded intelligent debating.Would one of those people be you by any chance, since anyone would find that saying one cast is stronger than another is a legitimate reason as to why a character from the overall stronger cast would defeat a character from the other, and that 2D fighters are stronger than 3D fighters since 2D characters have ki attacks and 3-Dimensional characters do not, are pathetic and hilarious statements.
Originally posted by TricksterPriest
We used to have great threads like Gen vs. Gouki or M. Bison vs. Goenitz. Now everything is Ryu Hayabusa, Kratos, Sephiroth or KH stuff. sad So a thread is bad so long as it relates to those characters? crylaugh
Originally posted by TricksterPriest
I lay the blame at least partly on Guilty Gears, Sado and another poster who used to frequent here, but hasn't been here in awhile. Banning those 2 would be a major step in the right direction.Yeah...banning those people would help immensely since it'll make good ol' Tricksterpriest satisfied and...for no other reason.
Originally posted by TricksterPriest
2nd: I want plot devices acknowledged under the rules. People like Sado and Guilty gears refuse to acknowledge the existence of the plot device weapon/ability.Prove it.
Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Like how Orochi has the immunity to everything except Magatama.Give a source to prove this please.
Originally posted by TricksterPriest
or how the Vigoor Emperor is immune to everything but the True Dragon Sword.Attempt to prove this. No wait, don't since I know it's bullshit.
Originally posted by TricksterPriest
In that case, anyone with the proper ability/weapon can win.Yeah, so if we give Akuma Green Lantern's ring or the Sword of Truth, he can overcome Superman, despite the fact that he never has achieved those really. Sounds reasonable..
Originally posted by TricksterPriest
AND IT IS NOT A FEAT FOR THE CHARACTER IF A PLOT DEVICE WAS USED TO WIN.If it's a "plot device" that doesn't only work on certain characters, then it is.
Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Examples: Holy being used to stop Meteor in FF7 is a plot device and not a feat for Aeris or Cloud.You're saying Holy couldn't stop anything else? haermm No really
Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Whereas Link using the Master Sword to beat Ganon is not a plot device, other than using the sword as a seal in games like Ocarina of Time.Strange, since I recall Ganondorf is invulnerable to everything but the Master Sword.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
3rd: The idiotic fan-wankery has to end. DOA/Tekken are not and have never been equal to SF/KOF.Please quote someone making that statement, that is a person making the statement that if the entire cast of Tekken or DOA were to fight the entire Street Fighter or KOF cast at once, the Tekken or DOA cast would win.
Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Fights between them are alright, but it's painfully obvious that SF/KOF are on the whole stronger than DOA/Tekken.Not going to say anything except that you're entitled to your opinion.
Originally posted by TricksterPriest
4th: Non-canon versions of characters should be eligible, and up to the discretion of the thread maker. But characters who do not exist period, cannot be argued.I would agree, but ones who've been proven to be able to in a versus match and have gaugeable powers could still be used, especially if the conditions of the debate are canonical. i.e. Hayabusa wielding the Dark Dragon Blade.
Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Like Hayabusa with the Dark Dragon Blade,See above.
Originally posted by TricksterPriest
or Jinpachi at his max,Seeing as he's been seen achieving it.
Originally posted by TricksterPriest
or Devil Jin from the ending of Tekken 5.This case is the same as Jinpachi's.
Originally posted by TricksterPriest
There's no way to debate them and they just start fights and flame wars.Yes, there is a way. Jinpachi's canonical abilities have been revealed and his powers in-game are revealed as well. Now Devil Jin in his ending inherited Jinpachi's power. You know...if these guys aren't valid then neither is your precious God Rugal or Cyber Gouki.
Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Whereas, someone like God Rugal or Devil Kazuya are debatable,That pretty much countermands your statement up top.
Originally posted by TricksterPriest
because they are legitimate characters, even if their status is non-canon, they are still playable.So then, why are characters like Belial debatable? Oh right, it's because the statement that characters are only legitimate if they're playable was never a rule. Hence why characters such as Loz, Kadaj, and Yazoo are legitimate characters in the forum.
Originally posted by TricksterPriest
5th: Like Ashtar said, the logical fallacies need to be kicked. You can't argue for example, that because the TDS's plot device killed the VE, that it can one-shot Orochi.I doubt you have a clue as to what you're talking about.

spidey-dude
Originally posted by WO Polaski
The problem that people have on this forum is there hostility, I think. If people could could quit with the "Who has a bigger dick" contests I think the forum would be a lot better off. A lot of people start off just debating, but then two pages later they're arguing just to argue. thats on any site now these days pal

Guilty Gear
Wanted to make an edit in my last post.

Regarding characters' invulnerabilities to everything but a certain ability or weapon, if a random character is given the correct device, the only device to defeat a villain then the character can pull off a victory. Though it's funny since if that character never got the item nor if that item exists in that character's universe, then they shouldn't get it in the first place. Would be a whole lot better to take away the villain's invulnerability instead.

However, if that's not the case then saying "ZOMG, if Akuma gets the True Dragon Sword he can beat the V.E", just seems like one of those idiotic debating tactics that I know a certain individual uses.

BlaxicanHydra
Way to prove everyone's point, Xeno erm

Guilty Gear
I'd say just about everyone's. It surely doesn't prove TricksterPriest's.

BlaxicanHydra
Eh. Semantics. You still smell like prunes.

Guilty Gear
Thanks for the compliment.

BlaxicanHydra
npKKthx smile

Violent2Dope
This is bullshit, stop arguing, this is what can ruin threads.

BlaxicanHydra
confused

No one's arguing anymore.

Lana
Originally posted by WO Polaski
The problem that people have on this forum is there hostility, I think. If people could could quit with the "Who has a bigger dick" contests I think the forum would be a lot better off. A lot of people start off just debating, but then two pages later they're arguing just to argue.

That is, along with the general unoriginality of threads in here, the biggest problem, I think.

And guys, please do not wreck this thread.

SaTsuJiN
How about Having unbalanced matches should no longer be a part of vs forums?...if one is to have a serious debate.. I would think the two combatants power should be at least in the same range

having master chief fight sakura or other ridiculous match-up (like jedah vs sonic the hedgehog lol) ruins the atmosphere of debate, IMO

Manners are important also... calling someone an idiot or gay just because they dont share the opinion that the character is as powerful as you percieve them (or even if you factually know), is just very rude... just let them think what they want and move on... name calling is just so grammar school to me... I'm sure we're all mature enough to weed out silly comments / opinions and persue the real debate at hand (whatever it may be)

FortressXRuler
Agreed, and we should stop using the same characters over and over.

Sandai Kitetsu
Originally posted by Guilty Gear
I can't believe that I gave in to the temptation of refuting some of the bullshit in this post, but here goes.

Would one of those people be you by any chance, since anyone would find that saying one cast is stronger than another is a legitimate reason as to why a character from the overall stronger cast would defeat a character from the other, and that 2D fighters are stronger than 3D fighters since 2D characters have ki attacks and 3-Dimensional characters do not, are pathetic and hilarious statements.
So a thread is bad so long as it relates to those characters? crylaugh
Yeah...banning those people would help immensely since it'll make good ol' Tricksterpriest satisfied and...for no other reason.
Prove it.
Give a source to prove this please.
Attempt to prove this. No wait, don't since I know it's bullshit.
Yeah, so if we give Akuma Green Lantern's ring or the Sword of Truth, he can overcome Superman, despite the fact that he never has achieved those really. Sounds reasonable..
If it's a "plot device" that doesn't only work on certain characters, then it is.
You're saying Holy couldn't stop anything else? haermm No really
Strange, since I recall Ganondorf is invulnerable to everything but the Master Sword.

Please quote someone making that statement, that is a person making the statement that if the entire cast of Tekken or DOA were to fight the entire Street Fighter or KOF cast at once, the Tekken or DOA cast would win.
Not going to say anything except that you're entitled to your opinion.
I would agree, but ones who've been proven to be able to in a versus match and have gaugeable powers could still be used, especially if the conditions of the debate are canonical. i.e. Hayabusa wielding the Dark Dragon Blade.
See above.
Seeing as he's been seen achieving it.
This case is the same as Jinpachi's.
Yes, there is a way. Jinpachi's canonical abilities have been revealed and his powers in-game are revealed as well. Now Devil Jin in his ending inherited Jinpachi's power. You know...if these guys aren't valid then neither is your precious God Rugal or Cyber Gouki.
That pretty much countermands your statement up top.
So then, why are characters like Belial debatable? Oh right, it's because the statement that characters are only legitimate if they're playable was never a rule. Hence why characters such as Loz, Kadaj, and Yazoo are legitimate characters in the forum.
I doubt you have a clue as to what you're talking about.

Don't derail this thread.

Superboy Prime
Originally posted by Sandai Kitetsu
Don't derail this thread.

True but to be honest I agree with some of his points. Never the less lets leave it at that Guilty and Priest.

Sandai Kitetsu
I agree with most of his points except Jinpaichi, but this needs to stop.

shin_remy
Originally posted by SaTsuJiN
Manners are important also... calling someone an idiot or gay just because they dont share the opinion that the character is as powerful as you percieve them (or even if you factually know), is just very rude... just let them think what they want and move on... name calling is just so grammar school to me... I'm sure we're all mature enough to weed out silly comments / opinions and persue the real debate at hand (whatever it may be)

FortressXRuler
We should keep our temper low.

Violent2Dope
Xeno said those things mostly cause TP named names and said he should be banned.

FortressXRuler
Some people should get banned, but it's just as bad if someone points fingers.

Violent2Dope
I can't think of a single member who frequents the forum that should be banned.

FortressXRuler
Yeah, sort of.

shin_remy
i must say

that i still won't see and i never will see

Tekken and DOA comparing to Kof/sf

1. Darkstalkers
2. Mortal Kombat
3. Samurai Showdown
4. KOF/SF/Guilty Gear
5. DOA/Tekken/Soul Calibur

Violent2Dope
How is MK 2? I think they are actually weaker than SF.

Sandai Kitetsu
Originally posted by Violent2Dope
Xeno said those things mostly cause TP named names and said he should be banned.
He doesn't even frequent this forum and GG could have easily ignored him.

BlaxicanHydra
I think so, too. But in that old 100 page debate it was decided that MK were stronger. Then stronger then most of the fighting genres because they have gods that actually fight and stuff.

Violent2Dope
I know.

Violent2Dope
Originally posted by BlaxicanHydra
I think so, too. But in that old 100 page debate it was decided that MK were stronger. Then stronger then most of the fighting genres because they have gods that actually fight and stuff. Those so-called "Gods" seem pretty weak compared to Akuma or even Ryu Hayabusa.

shin_remy
Originally posted by Violent2Dope
How is MK 2? I think they are actually weaker than SF.

ooh yeah

smoke alone could blow up the world confused

Sandai Kitetsu
I've heard that Raiden has destroyed the planet before.

shin_remy
Originally posted by Sandai Kitetsu
I've heard that Raiden has destroyed the planet before.

yeah in the comic

but Smoke showed it in a fatality!!

Violent2Dope
Okaaayyy when did these MK fighters all the sudden turn into plantet busters? In cutscenes when fighting they're not nearly as impressive.

Sandai Kitetsu
Mk always seemed powerful to me with their:

-Soul sucking sorcerers
-Dimension spanning empires
-Diety's
etc

shin_remy
since the beginning :P wink

Violent2Dope
Show me a vid or some kinda proof.

shin_remy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwFKxs0YTLE

smoke blowing up the world

Violent2Dope
Originally posted by shin_remy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwFKxs0YTLE

smoke blowing up the world Soooooooooooo he basically just killed himself?smile And I know this straight up H2H no specials SF would rape MK.

Superboy Prime
Originally posted by Sandai Kitetsu
He doesn't even frequent this forum and GG could have easily ignored him.

It's not that easy to sitback and let someone point fingers at you suggesting you should get banned. I understand his need to defend himself.

Sad thing is when TP returns he will reply and GG will reply and another pointless flame war will begin.

TP & GG I will report your asses before it gets too far.

Understood?

shin_remy
noob saibot can do it too and many more

they don't care if they can destroy their self there are enough of them

and i agree that SF has better specials, supers, H2H

but i don't see sf punching heads off for example or brutal executions

Violent2Dope
Yeah I'll report you both too Xeno you're a cool guy but this place needs to get better, and flame wars won't help.sad

FortressXRuler
SP has both of you on lock.

Violent2Dope
Originally posted by shin_remy
but i don't see sf punching heads off for example or brutal executions Yeah but Akuma destroyed an island with a punch.smile

shin_remy
good point hahaha smile

Violent2Dope
Originally posted by shin_remy
good point hahaha smile Seeing Smoke blow up earth changed my mind but H2H SF takes it.

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