Galvatron vs Grimlock

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zbucsz
In the city ding ding ding

Darkstorm Zero
Galvatron........ For obvious reasons.......

Rufus T Firefly
Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Galvatron........ For obvious reasons.......


yaaa

charlemagne9746
Galvatron killed Starsream in one shot in the movie...bloodlusted....Galvatron takes this....he's just plain meaner.

Faceman
Well no way in hell is Galvatron stronger than Grimlock, but if he uses his canon correctly he should stop the Dinobot...

Scythe
Didn't Galvatron have a one hit kill canon?

Darkstorm Zero
Even if we take away the fact that he one-shotted Starscream, the first five episodes of Season three has him:

#1- One shot the Planet Thrall.

#2- One shot that Earth Defense Platform and several ships.

#3- Single handedly wipeout up to 5 Sweeps.

#4- Severely damage the Quintesson Ship with a single blast from his Arm cannon.

It's just too much for Grimlock to take on... Megatron Grimmy could hang with fairly, but Galvatron is a whole new ballgame.

Scythe
How did Galvatron fair against Optimus? If they ever fought that is.

Darkstorm Zero
They never fought directly in the Toons, but I suspect he would fair about as well as he fared with Megs.

draxx_tOfU
Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Even if we take away the fact that he one-shotted Starscream, the first five episodes of Season three has him:

#1- One shot the Planet Thrall.

#2- One shot that Earth Defense Platform and several ships.

#3- Single handedly wipeout up to 5 Sweeps.

#4- Severely damage the Quintesson Ship with a single blast from his Arm cannon.

It's just too much for Grimlock to take on... Megatron Grimmy could hang with fairly, but Galvatron is a whole new ballgame.

agreed...


but i've always wondered, with the amount of firepower that Galvatron posseses, why doesn't he just blow the autobot headquarters from afar?...

Darkstorm Zero
Because he's insane.... one moment he's hesitant about attacking Earth, and the next, he wants to plug holes in it.

Scythe
But like I asked before, does Galvatron possess a one shot kill cannon?

Menetnashté
Originally posted by Scythe
But like I asked before, does Galvatron possess a one shot kill cannon?
No. During the Return of Optimus Prime episode he shot some of the infected decepticons with it, and it just knocked them down for a bit.

Avalonofthewind
Galvatron.

Grimlock could NEVER take this kind of hit and walk away from it just fine.

http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/7491/issue75page14uw0.th.jpg

Scythe
Nice comic scan. Shows Galvy at his best.

Alpha Centauri
Hands up how many people have actually been into TF long enough to know what they're on about? Doesn't seem to be many here.

Galvatron couldn't beat Grimlock, especially comics Grimlock.

-AC

Scythe
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Hands up how many people have actually been into TF long enough to know what they're on about? Doesn't seem to be many here.

Galvatron couldn't beat Grimlock, especially comics Grimlock.

-AC

I'm highly uneducated on Galvatron seeing as how he was always my most hated character, but highly skilled Decepticon or not, Grimlock was a savage fighter that could dismantle most any bot. I remember when I was a kid I read a comic that explained the toughness of Grimlock's hide. It was said to be of a stronger more durable alloy then that which Unicron is composed of. Grimlock takes the cake.

Alpha Centauri
He didn't become leader of the Autobots for no reason, and the Autobots didn't dethrone him for being too violent and too careless for no reason.

-AC

Darkstorm Zero
I've been into TF since I was a small boy... and I'm 25 now...

Now, I stand by my earlier statebents in relation to the toons... Grimlock can't handl;e potential planet busting shots, not when all it took was an exploding jumbo jet to dismantle the Dinobots...

However, comic Grimlock was taken down by Starscream with a point blank null ray blast... while galvy eatomise starscream... it's A>B>C logic, and I hate it, but I'm not as confident in the comic argument as I am in the toon one, since I know the toons a whole lot better.

Alpha Centauri
Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
I've been into TF since I was a small boy... and I'm 25 now...

Now, I stand by my earlier statebents in relation to the toons... Grimlock can't handl;e potential planet busting shots, not when all it took was an exploding jumbo jet to dismantle the Dinobots...

However, comic Grimlock was taken down by Starscream with a point blank null ray blast... while galvy eatomise starscream... it's A>B>C logic, and I hate it, but I'm not as confident in the comic argument as I am in the toon one, since I know the toons a whole lot better.

Everyone has been "taken down" by everyone at some point, by some blast or another. A>B>C logic is silly, Grimlock is one of the strongest transformers ever, even in the cartoons.

It didn't take a jumbo jet to dismantle the Autobots, and certainly don't act like such an insignificant event can be taken seriously in the series. Especially when they've endured much worse and kept fighting.

Galvatron having "planet busting" shots is just a one time only hype tactic. Just like Megatron having the ability to increase his fusion cannon power by channelling energy from a black hole.

Galvatron killed Starscream because they wanted him to make a grand entrance. If Galvatron could actually do that, he'd be doing it all the time, he doesn't.

Galvatron is just a very powerful leader, who lost almost all the main one on one fights he had in the show, and retreated for most of the battles. In the comics Grimlock is much smarter, more powerful and more vicious.

-AC

Scythe
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
He didn't become leader of the Autobots for no reason, and the Autobots didn't dethrone him for being too violent and too careless for no reason.

-AC

Oh baby I remember that! I thought that was so cool!

Darkstorm Zero
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Everyone has been "taken down" by everyone at some point, by some blast or another. A>B>C logic is silly, Grimlock is one of the strongest transformers ever, even in the cartoons.

No they havn't... thats a very shitty argument.

I din't deny that Grimlock was one of the strongest, it just so happens that he's not as high on the list as Galvatron is.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
It didn't take a jumbo jet to dismantle the Autobots, and certainly don't act like such an insignificant event can be taken seriously in the series. Especially when they've endured much worse and kept fighting.

esertion of the inobots part one, Megs an Skywarp shot at, and blew up that passenger aircraft an it knocked the Dinobots into Stasis lock instantly, blowing off limbs and all sorts of shit.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Galvatron having "planet busting" shots is just a one time only hype tactic. Just like Megatron having the ability to increase his fusion cannon power by channelling energy from a black hole.

sorry, no ice, since he has done it more than once, he also destroyed Web World.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Galvatron killed Starscream because they wanted him to make a grand entrance. If Galvatron could actually do that, he'd be doing it all the time, he doesn't.

Galvatron was already introduced to the viewers by that point.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Galvatron is just a very powerful leader, who lost almost all the main one on one fights he had in the show, and retreated for most of the battles. In the comics Grimlock is much smarter, more powerful and more vicious.

Losing all his matches is via plot conveniance, since the bad guy always loses in 80's cartoons.

Alpha Centauri
Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
No they havn't... thats a very shitty argument.

I din't deny that Grimlock was one of the strongest, it just so happens that he's not as high on the list as Galvatron is.

Of course they have. In one scene you can see Wheeljack getting shot down by a single blast, the next they're all blasting at each other back and forth to no effect. You can't judge the characters on the cartoons because that's like judging X-Men on the movies.

Grimlock actually is stronger, but I'm not sure where you're getting your information from.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Desertion of the inobots part one, Megs an Skywarp shot at, and blew up that passenger aircraft an it knocked the Dinobots into Stasis lock instantly, blowing off limbs and all sorts of shit.

Yes because that was what they needed to do to hurry along the plot. In one episode Megatron is incapacitated by rust. You can't judge off a plot device. They've withstood much more than aircraft blasts.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
sorry, no ice, since he has done it more than once, he also destroyed Web World.

Think about what you're suggesting. If this wasn't a hype tactic, which it is, why on Earth doesn't he do it all the time to finish off the Autobots? Why, in Grimlock's New Brain, doesn't he just kill Grimlock before he can create Computron? Oh, because it's just something they use to move the plot along, like the Dinobot aircraft blast.

It's not to be taken as canon.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Galvatron was already introduced to the viewers by that point.

You're judging him off momentary plot devices, though. It's ridiculous, those aren't to be judged off.

How many times did we see Prowl, Ironhide etc get into firefights with the Decepticons? There's nobody who'd have said "Scavenger is better than Prowl.", but would you be prepared to say that just because they used Scavenger to kill him off in TF: The Movie? No, because it's silly. Prowl was one of the best Autobot warriors, and he was only killed to further a plot device, not because his opponent was actually better than him.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Losing all his matches is via plot conveniance, since the bad guy always loses in 80's cartoons.

Everything is via plot convenience that you've just used to put your point across, though.

-AC

Darkstorm Zero
I'm not going into quote battles again today (I've had more than 5 already), the reason why I sided with Galvatron over Grimlock this time, is that Galvatron has ha consistantly better feats more often than Grimlock has. You can't dism,iss every feat Galvatron has as mere plot conveniance, otherwise nothing at all can be taken as cannon in the cartoon, even if the toon is the one we're supposed to be basing it from.

you want to disreguard everything Galvatron has done as plot device or PIS, while you allow everything Grimlock has in is very one sided.

Not to mention that out of 3 threads involving our ol'e Dino buddy, this is the only one I can't see him winning in a straight fight, an I've state my reasons, so I'm not bias.

Alpha Centauri
Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
I'm not going into quote battles again today (I've had more than 5 already), the reason why I sided with Galvatron over Grimlock this time, is that Galvatron has ha consistantly better feats more often than Grimlock has. You can't dism,iss every feat Galvatron has as mere plot conveniance, otherwise nothing at all can be taken as cannon in the cartoon, even if the toon is the one we're supposed to be basing it from.

You can't actually take anything as cannon from the cartoon, not concerning combat abilities anyway, because everything is always down to convenience and plot.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
you want to disreguard everything Galvatron has done as plot device or PIS, while you allow everything Grimlock has in is very one sided.

Everything everyone does is a device, anything of note anyway, hence why it's stupid to base any fight off cartoons. You don't see people in the comics forum using the X-Men series as base for why someone would win a fight.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Not to mention that out of 3 threads involving our ol'e Dino buddy, this is the only one I can't see him winning in a straight fight, an I've state my reasons, so I'm not bias.

It doesn't matter. You see him winning because of Galvatron's plot devices, in the comics he's not the one who's going to win.

-AC

Sadako of Girth
Well it took the Dinobots might combined to merely knock Megs off of a cliff in the comic,
after Ratchet arranged the ambush in order to reclaim the ark and the Autobots. And Galvatron beats Megs..... So my money is on Galvatron.

Also the combined might of the Dinobots was barely enough to defeat Shockwave too, and my money'd be on Galvatron between the two.

Read also 'target 2006' for another indicator of Galvatron's effectiveness against pre-movie G1 TFs.

But one things for sure, It's a fight I'd love to see. smile

Alpha Centauri
There were a lot of contradictions with plot devices in the comics too, but toward the end Grimlock was generally portrayed as this out of control, mega-powerful maniac.

Grimlock has more power than more or less any Transformer that isn't a gesalt or base. Galvatron isn't exactly of stable mind enough to beat him, Megatron maybe, cos he's smarter.

-AC

Sadako of Girth
But Grimlock likewise lacked the power to destroy Galvatron too.
In anycase, Galvatron at least in comic form, mad or not was ridiculous power that even as unstable as he was, still managed to tear new ones for all he encountered, more or less. Magnus was just lucky with that volcano thing... stick out tongue

Darkstorm Zero
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
You can't actually take anything as cannon from the cartoon, not concerning combat abilities anyway, because everything is always down to convenience and plot.

It's no different in the comics... A lot of realism has to be sacrificed for plot, but you've tried to tear down EVERY avantage one person has, while giving the other all of his avantages, an based off of that, claime the win... thats very shitty debating tactics.

An I've only ever debated the toons since thats what I'm most familar with (Exept from some of the recent reamwave comics).

Butuner that mentality I can easily say that Galvatron wins with a massive curbstomp in relation to the comics, due to Galvatron's invulnerability by being connected to Unicron....

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Everything everyone does is a device, anything of note anyway, hence why it's stupid to base any fight off cartoons. You don't see people in the comics forum using the X-Men series as base for why someone would win a fight.

This isn't the Comic's forum for starters... two, since it isn't the Comics vs, and it wasn't stipulated which medium we where debating, it was well and truly open to interpretation, meaning I can use whatever medium I am most comfortable with, you don't like it, don't debate with me.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
It doesn't matter. You see him winning because of Galvatron's plot devices, in the comics he's not the one who's going to win.

-AC

In the comics, he has just as many plot devices as he does in the Comics... and Grimlock gets owned by Starscream's null rays...

I have just made a case in two sentences... this is not one sided, nor is it remotely a curbstomp, I think Galvatron takes the majority.

Alpha Centauri
Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
It's no different in the comics... A lot of realism has to be sacrificed for plot, but you've tried to tear down EVERY avantage one person has, while giving the other all of his avantages, an based off of that, claime the win... thats very shitty debating tactics.

I'm not giving anyone advantages, I'm saying it's stupid to base anything at ALL on the toons.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
An I've only ever debated the toons since thats what I'm most familar with (Exept from some of the recent reamwave comics).

Butuner that mentality I can easily say that Galvatron wins with a massive curbstomp in relation to the comics, due to Galvatron's invulnerability by being connected to Unicron....

And why are you saying that? Because one person has said it? Are you a sheep or something? I'd say go and read for yourself, but you do appear to be biased.

Galvatron, for all his power (Like anybody.), couldn't get the job done, hence why the comics went on. So it's stupid to assume he's going to get some squash win over someone as powerful as Grimlock, arguably the most powerful Autobot.

Galvatron isn't connected to Unicron anymore anyway, that ended after he was destroyed. Furthermore, if you WANT to go by the toons, he lost a fist fight to Rodimus, so much for the invulnerability.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
This isn't the Comic's forum for starters... two, since it isn't the Comics vs, and it wasn't stipulated which medium we where debating, it was well and truly open to interpretation, meaning I can use whatever medium I am most comfortable with, you don't like it, don't debate with me.

Then you must accept that it's stupid to debate the cartoons because there are too many things done to cater to plot. It's impossible to gauge who would win because they both succumb to stupid things (Fist fights and exploding planes.), and then have the power to do such things as destroy planets and in Grimlock's case, floor Megatron with a breath blast. It's pointless.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
In the comics, he has just as many plot devices as he does in the Comics... and Grimlock gets owned by Starscream's null rays...

And do you want to count how many times Grimlock has stood up to worse than null rays? Exactly.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
I have just made a case in two sentences... this is not one sided, nor is it remotely a curbstomp, I think Galvatron takes the majority.

Britney Spears would take the majority over a lot of music I like, it doesn't make her better.

You're essentially judging on personal bias, and to be fair, we probably all are, because there's simply not enough set ability to go by.

-AC

Darkstorm Zero
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
I'm not giving anyone advantages, I'm saying it's stupid to base anything at ALL on the toons.

Thats your choice, but the minute you try and push that up in my face, I'm going to have something to say about it.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
And why are you saying that? Because one person has said it? Are you a sheep or something? I'd say go and read for yourself, but you do appear to be biased.

Galvatron, for all his power (Like anybody.), couldn't get the job done, hence why the comics went on. So it's stupid to assume he's going to get some squash win over someone as powerful as Grimlock, arguably the most powerful Autobot.

Galvatron isn't connected to Unicron anymore anyway, that ended after he was destroyed. Furthermore, if you WANT to go by the toons, he lost a fist fight to Rodimus, so much for the invulnerability.

#1: It was written in Dreamwave's character profile listings under Galvatron's powers, it was also listed in Galvatron's profile for both the comic and the movie.

#2: Excuse me... di dI say curbstomp? I never claimed that EVER... Do not put words in my mouth... I did say Galvatron takes the majority based on his abilities, and I also said this in relation to the Toons, not the comics. It's also stupi to assume that Grimlock would win over someone who has emonstrated far more destructive capability than anything the Dinobot has ever faced.

#3: The invulnerability Unicron granted him was only covered in the comics Alpha, read what I say before you go assuming anything...

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Then you must accept that it's stupid to debate the cartoons because there are too many things done to cater to plot. It's impossible to gauge who would win because they both succumb to stupid things (Fist fights and exploding planes.), and then have the power to do such things as destroy planets and in Grimlock's case, floor Megatron with a breath blast. It's pointless.

Do you read? And who are you to determine what other people are allowed to debate?

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
And do you want to count how many times Grimlock has stood up to worse than null rays? Exactly.

Excuse me, but you have to take the goo with the bad, you and I debate two different forms of medium... so why your debating with me is beyond me... in Grimlocks defence, I sai in that threa thatGrimlock would easily take the majority over Starscream, but then again, so does Galvatron.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Britney Spears would take the majority over a lot of music I like, it doesn't make her better.

You're essentially judging on personal bias, and to be fair, we probably all are, because there's simply not enough set ability to go by.

-AC

........... I'm not going by A Populem..........

You on't know what I mean by "Taking the Majority" o you?

What it means is out of 10 encounters, who would win the majority of the time.

Alpha Centauri
Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Thats your choice, but the minute you try and push that up in my face, I'm going to have something to say about it.

I'm not trying to push anything on you.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
#1: It was written in Dreamwave's character profile listings under Galvatron's powers, it was also listed in Galvatron's profile for both the comic and the movie.

That's not equal to reading the comics.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
#2: Excuse me... di dI say curbstomp? I never claimed that EVER... Do not put words in my mouth... I did say Galvatron takes the majority based on his abilities, and I also said this in relation to the Toons, not the comics. It's also stupi to assume that Grimlock would win over someone who has emonstrated far more destructive capability than anything the Dinobot has ever faced.

You did actually use the phrase "Galvatron wins with a massive curbstomp.".

Regarding this whole battle, it appears we'll have to agree to disagree, then. I have a lot that suggests Grimlock would win, if we really want to go by the toons as you say, and you have that which causes you to believe otherwise, all fair enough.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
#3: The invulnerability Unicron granted him was only covered in the comics Alpha, read what I say before you go assuming anything...

It didn't stick.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Do you read? And who are you to determine what other people are allowed to debate?

I'm not telling anybody anything, besides suggesting that you accept how hard it is to debate the toons, simply because of all the plot devices and errors.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Excuse me, but you have to take the goo with the bad, you and I debate two different forms of medium... so why your debating with me is beyond me... in Grimlocks defence, I sai in that threa thatGrimlock would easily take the majority over Starscream, but then again, so does Galvatron.

Starscream was never that great a warrior in the first place, he gets lucky with his null ray now and then.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
........... I'm not going by A Populem..........

You on't know what I mean by "Taking the Majority" o you?

What it means is out of 10 encounters, who would win the majority of the time.

Oh, yeah I see. My bad, thought you meant people.

-AC

Darkstorm Zero
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
I'm not trying to push anything on you.

You effectively stipulated "Depate the comics or nothing at all"

Thats tantamount to pushing your beleif onto me, or forcing me to conform to your methodology, and I don't agree with that.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
That's not equal to reading the comics.

You asked me where I got my information, and I've already said, I'm not as familair with the OLDER comics as I am with Dreamwave and IDW comic lines. those profiles are from both Dreamwave, an the early comics.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
You did actually use the phrase "Galvatron wins with a massive curbstomp.".

did I?..........

Where? confused

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Regarding this whole battle, it appears we'll have to agree to disagree, then. I have a lot that suggests Grimlock would win, if we really want to go by the toons as you say, and you have that which causes you to believe otherwise, all fair enough.

I can separate the comics from the toons, I beleive that the toons give Galvy the majority. I'm not as familiar with the older Marvel comics so I cannot effectively debate them.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
It didn't stick.

It doesn't need to, since we don't know what form of Galvatron we are debating here, the OP is remarkably vague with respect to what versions of the characters we are using or what meium takes the highest priority.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
I'm not telling anybody anything, besides suggesting that you accept how hard it is to debate the toons, simply because of all the plot devices and errors.

I simply on't like it when someone suggest that EVERYTHING is plot device.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Starscream was never that great a warrior in the first place, he gets lucky with his null ray now and then.

Well, he is the Aerospace Operations Commaner an 2nd in command of the Decepticons for a reason.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Oh, yeah I see. My bad, thought you meant people.


No worries big grin

Alpha Centauri
Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
You effectively stipulated "Depate the comics or nothing at all"

Thats tantamount to pushing your beleif onto me, or forcing me to conform to your methodology, and I don't agree with that.

Because it's less pointless. If you want to debate the cartoons, fine, but then seeing as everything was essentially plot device, it's going to be stupid.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
You asked me where I got my information, and I've already said, I'm not as familair with the OLDER comics as I am with Dreamwave and IDW comic lines. those profiles are from both Dreamwave, an the early comics.

They are just profiles, all profiles say things the robots are not necessarily proven to be capable of.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
did I?..........

Where? confused

"Butuner that mentality I can easily say that Galvatron wins with a massive curbstomp in relation to the comics, due to Galvatron's invulnerability by being connected to Unicron....".

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
I can separate the comics from the toons, I beleive that the toons give Galvy the majority. I'm not as familiar with the older Marvel comics so I cannot effectively debate them.

You believe that based on plot devices, and there are plot devices suggesting Grimlock would win, suggesting that anybody could do anything, really.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
It doesn't need to, since we don't know what form of Galvatron we are debating here, the OP is remarkably vague with respect to what versions of the characters we are using or what meium takes the highest priority.

True. He wasn't endlessly invulnerable in the toons either.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
I simply on't like it when someone suggest that EVERYTHING is plot device.

It was, though.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Well, he is the Aerospace Operations Commaner an 2nd in command of the Decepticons for a reason.

He's not 2nd in command, Shockwave is. He is classified as a Decepticon commander, Starscream isn't, he's a commander of a group, not the whole group.

And yeah, the reason he's called that is to give him distinction, you read too much into things.

-AC

Darkstorm Zero
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Because it's less pointless. If you want to debate the cartoons, fine, but then seeing as everything was essentially plot device, it's going to be stupid.

It's only "All Plot evice" accoring to you though, not to me.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
They are just profiles, all profiles say things the robots are not necessarily proven to be capable of.

Again, it's your oppinion, Dreamwave use those profiles as templates when they made their comics.

An the movie profiles where taken irectly from the old UK comics.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
"Butuner that mentality I can easily say that Galvatron wins with a massive curbstomp in relation to the comics, due to Galvatron's invulnerability by being connected to Unicron....".

That was in response to you throwing away every cartoon feat he's done, so I checked the Comic capabilities.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
You believe that based on plot devices, and there are plot devices suggesting Grimlock would win, suggesting that anybody could do anything, really.

Not at all, you've taken every conceivabl;e feat and overplayed their part as simply plot devices... nevertheless Cartoon base Galvatron wins over cartoon Grimlock, do you dispute this?

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
True. He wasn't endlessly invulnerable in the toons either.

The invulnerability was only really covered in the Comic I think... the Toons however did show that the only injuries Galvatron ever sustained in the Movie, was those inflicted by Unicron himself (The one who has control over Galvatron's invulnerability anyway). Galvatron wasn't nessisarily injured by Rodimus when he lost that fistfight, because even when Hotrod hit him directly with the forarm blasters, Galvatron had no injuries.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
It was, though.

That requires proof, Inconcistancy I can easily agree with and support, but plot device? no...

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
He's not 2nd in command, Shockwave is. He is classified as a Decepticon commander, Starscream isn't, he's a commander of a group, not the whole group.

And yeah, the reason he's called that is to give him distinction, you read too much into things.

On Earth, he was 2nd in command... and even Shockwave ha to bow to him, when he thought Megs was dead and Starscream was right there.

Shockwaves titles include Decepticon Strategist and Military Operations Commander... But when Megs and his bunch reactivate on Earth, Starscream was 2nd in command... Are you disputing this?

Alpha Centauri
Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
It's only "All Plot evice" accoring to you though, not to me.

Well, you're clearly wrong, aren't you? Things happen according to plot. If the Dinobots didn't get blown up by the plane, that episode wouldn't exist. If Rodimus didn't beat Galvatron in a fist fight, he'd not have ended up in the plasma bath and continued into series 3. These areas of weakness are plot device to make things happen. It's fact.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Again, it's your oppinion, Dreamwave use those profiles as templates when they made their comics.

It's not my opinion, jesus. It says on a few Megatron profiles that he can link with black holes, it says Thundercracker can make loud noises, that Skywarp can warp (Happens all of...twice?).

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
An the movie profiles where taken irectly from the old UK comics.

Stop going by what you find on the net, pick up a comic for crying out loud.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
That was in response to you throwing away every cartoon feat he's done, so I checked the Comic capabilities.

That ANYBODY has done, because it's all based on plot devices. Your denial of this is irrelevant.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Not at all, you've taken every conceivabl;e feat and overplayed their part as simply plot devices... nevertheless Cartoon base Galvatron wins over cartoon Grimlock, do you dispute this?

They are plot devices. If they're not, and we are to take them seriously, then Galvatron got BEAT UP by Rodimus, who isn't equal to Grimlock in strength. Grimlock floored Megatron with one blast, however.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
The invulnerability was only really covered in the Comic I think... the Toons however did show that the only injuries Galvatron ever sustained in the Movie, was those inflicted by Unicron himself (The one who has control over Galvatron's invulnerability anyway). Galvatron wasn't nessisarily injured by Rodimus when he lost that fistfight, because even when Hotrod hit him directly with the forarm blasters, Galvatron had no injuries.

You are reading too much into the show, Zero. It didn't exactly bother with details did it?

Why are you assuming that Galvatron was immune thanks to Unicron? Simply because he didn't happen to sustain any injuries? It doesn't mean he couldn't. There were far too many contradicting combat circumstances to take ANYTHING that happened to ANYBODY as canon. Megatron threw a STICK at Prime in the movie and it pierced him, he fatally wounded him with a pistol-like blaster. On the Dinobot Island episode Prime takes the full force of his fusion cannon and says "I'm ok.". You can't judge by that shit.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
That requires proof, Inconcistancy I can easily agree with and support, but plot device? no...

I cannot compensate for ignorance. The contradictions are all there, you ignoring them is not something I can change.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
On Earth, he was 2nd in command... and even Shockwave ha to bow to him, when he thought Megs was dead and Starscream was right there.

Because he was crowned LEADER by himself, it was what was MEANT TO HAPPEN IN THE PLOT. Shockwave was in command of Cybertron itself when Megatron wasn't around, even in the comics. He's never been 2nd in command, except maybe of Earth forces, not the entire Decepticon ranks, that actually goes to Shockwave, just like the Autobots second in command was always Prowl, despite naive fans thinking it was Ironhide or Jazz just because they were more liked and featured.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Shockwaves titles include Decepticon Strategist and Military Operations Commander... But when Megs and his bunch reactivate on Earth, Starscream was 2nd in command... Are you disputing this?

You are getting this from profiles which HAVE to give everyone a "title" though. In the comics and in the series, as well as among the fans, he is considered a Decepticon commander above Starscream.

Comics:

"Dreamwave Productions:

Shockwave was a major character in the Dreamwave Productions' 21st Century re-imagining of G1. As a major player in the Decepticon army in Cybertron's past, he led the main attack on the Autobots' stronghold shortly after the appointment of Optimus Prime, and personally destroyed two Omega Sentinels with one blast in space gun mode. There was also tension between him and Starscream about who would lead the Decepticons after Megatron's supposed death, which eventually led to the creation of multiple splinter factions within both the Autobots and Decepticons. While Starscream created his own faction, the 'Predacons,' Shockwave led the Decepticons through the 'Dark Ages' of Cybertron, during which his logic allowed him to put aside differences with Jetfire and the Autobots in order to defeat the greater evil of The Fallen. As the Dark Ages came to an end, Shockwave was ready to sign a peace treaty with Ratbat's Ultracons and the Autobots, but the return of Megatron derailed the plan, though the Quintesson-created clones he brought back to the planet with him greatly intrigued Shockwave.

Shockwave was left behind on Cybertron while Megatron's forces pursued Optimus Prime and were subsequently lost on Earth for four million years, and became Decepticon leader on the planet.

Megatron is at the center of the Decepticon movement, leading with an iron fist and the use of violence against any Decepticon who dares to question Megatron's leadership. However, not all Decepticons follow Megatron. One of which, Shockwave, ultimately takes over when Megatron is presumed dead. ".

Not only does it explicitly state he is second only to Megatron, it clearly details that when he faced off against Starscream, HE was the one left leading the Decepticons while Starscream was forced to go and make his own group.

Animated Series:

"As the Decepticons' military operations commander, Shockwave's power is second only to Megatron's, and even that is disputed. His actions are carried out with the cold, brutal clarity and perfection one would expect of a purely mechanical being — his way is not that of blood lust, like so many other Decepticons, but rather that of a scientist attempting to solve a problem. And that problem is: how can he use his abilities to most effectively eliminate the greatest number of enemies? Unfortunately for the Autobots, it is rare that Shockwave will not find a suitable answer.".

Not sure what more you want. Starscream is more famed and iconic, he isn't higher in rank. He was only ever the liutenant of Earth Decepticons forces, not Decepticons in general. He isn't as smart, as clinical or as powerful as Shockwave.

-AC

Darkstorm Zero
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Well, you're clearly wrong, aren't you? Things happen according to plot. If the Dinobots didn't get blown up by the plane, that episode wouldn't exist. If Rodimus didn't beat Galvatron in a fist fight, he'd not have ended up in the plasma bath and continued into series 3. These areas of weakness are plot device to make things happen. It's fact.

Again, why am I clearly wrong? An who's to say the inobots wouln'thave esserted AFTER they Won that battle?? you've assumed something. there are many other ways of writing an episode.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
It's not my opinion, jesus. It says on a few Megatron profiles that he can link with black holes, it says Thundercracker can make loud noises, that Skywarp can warp (Happens all of...twice?).

............ Your not listening.............

Those capabilities are no less canon and official.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Stop going by what you find on the net, pick up a comic for crying out loud.

I love how you automatically assume that I'm yanking my info off the net..... Please find a new line, cause that ones ol as hell confused

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
That ANYBODY has done, because it's all based on plot devices. Your denial of this is irrelevant.

Proof?

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
They are plot devices. If they're not, and we are to take them seriously, then Galvatron got BEAT UP by Rodimus, who isn't equal to Grimlock in strength. Grimlock floored Megatron with one blast, however.

Rodimus had JUST received a huge injection of matrix energy, THAT and THAT ALONE is a plot device. the matrix is the single biggest plot device ever create, along the lines of Green Laterns Ring, The Triforce, an the Infinity Gauntlet.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
You are reading too much into the show, Zero. It didn't exactly bother with details did it?

Why are you assuming that Galvatron was immune thanks to Unicron? Simply because he didn't happen to sustain any injuries? It doesn't mean he couldn't. There were far too many contradicting combat circumstances to take ANYTHING that happened to ANYBODY as canon. Megatron threw a STICK at Prime in the movie and it pierced him, he fatally wounded him with a pistol-like blaster. On the Dinobot Island episode Prime takes the full force of his fusion cannon and says "I'm ok.". You can't judge by that shit.

I didn't deny that, but I'm not the one willing to toss everything am I?

Not so, it's an 80's cartoon catered for kids bro.

Correctin, he threw the stick, it peirced, followe by a lightsaber strike to the same area, followe by 3 blasts from said pistol into the same wound, one to the arm, and one to the faceplate. thats a sustained assault, not a one hit wonder.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
I cannot compensate for ignorance. The contradictions are all there, you ignoring them is not something I can change.

I can still say it's your oppinion until you give me one that CANNOT be explained.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Because he was crowned LEADER by himself, it was what was MEANT TO HAPPEN IN THE PLOT. Shockwave was in command of Cybertron itself when Megatron wasn't around, even in the comics. He's never been 2nd in command, except maybe of Earth forces, not the entire Decepticon ranks, that actually goes to Shockwave, just like the Autobots second in command was always Prowl, despite naive fans thinking it was Ironhide or Jazz just because they were more liked and featured.

......................................................... No comment, since I've already said that Starscream was 2nd only on earth.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
You are getting this from profiles which HAVE to give everyone a "title" though. In the comics and in the series, as well as among the fans, he is considered a Decepticon commander above Starscream.

Comics:

"Dreamwave Productions:

Shockwave was a major character in the Dreamwave Productions' 21st Century re-imagining of G1. As a major player in the Decepticon army in Cybertron's past, he led the main attack on the Autobots' stronghold shortly after the appointment of Optimus Prime, and personally destroyed two Omega Sentinels with one blast in space gun mode. There was also tension between him and Starscream about who would lead the Decepticons after Megatron's supposed death, which eventually led to the creation of multiple splinter factions within both the Autobots and Decepticons. While Starscream created his own faction, the 'Predacons,' Shockwave led the Decepticons through the 'Dark Ages' of Cybertron, during which his logic allowed him to put aside differences with Jetfire and the Autobots in order to defeat the greater evil of The Fallen. As the Dark Ages came to an end, Shockwave was ready to sign a peace treaty with Ratbat's Ultracons and the Autobots, but the return of Megatron derailed the plan, though the Quintesson-created clones he brought back to the planet with him greatly intrigued Shockwave.

Shockwave was left behind on Cybertron while Megatron's forces pursued Optimus Prime and were subsequently lost on Earth for four million years, and became Decepticon leader on the planet.

Megatron is at the center of the Decepticon movement, leading with an iron fist and the use of violence against any Decepticon who dares to question Megatron's leadership. However, not all Decepticons follow Megatron. One of which, Shockwave, ultimately takes over when Megatron is presumed dead. ".

Not only does it explicitly state he is second only to Megatron, it clearly details that when he faced off against Starscream, HE was the one left leading the Decepticons while Starscream was forced to go and make his own group.

Animated Series:

"As the Decepticons' military operations commander, Shockwave's power is second only to Megatron's, and even that is disputed. His actions are carried out with the cold, brutal clarity and perfection one would expect of a purely mechanical being — his way is not that of blood lust, like so many other Decepticons, but rather that of a scientist attempting to solve a problem. And that problem is: how can he use his abilities to most effectively eliminate the greatest number of enemies? Unfortunately for the Autobots, it is rare that Shockwave will not find a suitable answer.".

Not sure what more you want. Starscream is more famed and iconic, he isn't higher in rank. He was only ever the liutenant of Earth Decepticons forces, not Decepticons in general. He isn't as smart, as clinical or as powerful as Shockwave.

-AC

See previous answer.

Alpha Centauri
Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Again, why am I clearly wrong? An who's to say the inobots wouln'thave esserted AFTER they Won that battle?? you've assumed something. there are many other ways of writing an episode.

I AM the one going by what's there and what is known of the series. You are going by "If this happened, this is possible.", anything is clearly possible in that series. Galvatron Vs Grimlock, then, is an endless debate.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
............ Your not listening.............

Those capabilities are no less canon and official.

If they've never actually done them, ever, why are you assuming they'd do so in battle? That's illogical.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
I love how you automatically assume that I'm yanking my info off the net..... Please find a new line, cause that ones ol as hell confused

When you stop referencing to profiles and alluding to such, I'll stop assuming such.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Proof?

Proof of what? That it's all based on plot devices? The fact that these things have to happen for the plot and story to happen. You only say "What If?" when it suits you.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Rodimus had JUST received a huge injection of matrix energy, THAT and THAT ALONE is a plot device. the matrix is the single biggest plot device ever create, along the lines of Green Laterns Ring, The Triforce, an the Infinity Gauntlet.

He was reformatted, no different to Megatron into Galvatron. We have no reason to believe the fight was any greater in favour of Rodimus, power wise. True, though, it was a moment that happened because it needed to in the story. Just like everything else.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
I didn't deny that, but I'm not the one willing to toss everything am I?

Exactly, that's why you are clinging to your theories, you don't see that they are all situation based scenarios.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Not so, it's an 80's cartoon catered for kids bro.

Really? No...really?

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Correctin, he threw the stick, it peirced, followe by a lightsaber strike to the same area, followe by 3 blasts from said pistol into the same wound, one to the arm, and one to the faceplate. thats a sustained assault, not a one hit wonder.

First, let's not over look the fact that you just said "He thre the STICK, it PIERCED.". A stick pierced Optimus Prime, yet Megatron's fusion cannon didn't, yet his pistol did.

You are assuming the specification of the blasts, where they hit and how, mostly. You have no officiality there.

Either way, it's no different. Dinobot Island AGAIN, the Decepticons had all the Autobots pinned down under a laser assault and they were just laying there without a scratch on them. It's ALL plot device. If lasers were able to penetrate as easily as they did (Shuttle hijack? Prowl was killed in a single shot, and others in not much more.) then most of them would have been dead in this scene, but they weren't.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
I can still say it's your oppinion until you give me one that CANNOT be explained.

I'm giving you all the proof you could need, you are ignoring it and creating ways you can justify it. "He fired the pistol in specific places.", bs. They were too careless to properly animate the show, you think they'd actually make note of where he's being shot?

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
......................................................... No comment, since I've already said that Starscream was 2nd only on earth.

I said this too, yet you continued the debate rather than agreeing.

-AC

Sadako of Girth
Shockwave was commander on Earth in the Marvel run.

He ambushed and messed both sides up, decapitated Prime(keeping the head seperate, but operational), trashed and usurped Megatron replacing him as commander of the Decepticons... He used the matrix (pure energy in the comic) taken from the bodyless Prime's mind to give life to the newly constructed Constructicons. He also built Jetfire/Skyfire.

His leadership remained for quite a while...

Darkstorm Zero
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
I AM the one going by what's there and what is known of the series. You are going by "If this happened, this is possible.", anything is clearly possible in that series. Galvatron Vs Grimlock, then, is an endless debate.

No, you just said that if the Dinobots were not destroyed, then the episodes couldn't continue, I just demonstrated how wrong you are.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
If they've never actually done them, ever, why are you assuming they'd do so in battle? That's illogical.

Because it's still an official capability, despite your objection.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
When you stop referencing to profiles and alluding to such, I'll stop assuming such.

I am allowed to reference profiles as long as they are official.... you can assume as much as you like, and I'll keep correcting you.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Proof of what? That it's all based on plot devices? The fact that these things have to happen for the plot and story to happen. You only say "What If?" when it suits you.

Then the comics are just as guilty of suffering ploit damage as the cartoon.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
He was reformatted, no different to Megatron into Galvatron. We have no reason to believe the fight was any greater in favour of Rodimus, power wise. True, though, it was a moment that happened because it needed to in the story. Just like everything else.

It was very different... foir one, it's two entirely different sources of reformatting... two Unicron actually amped Galvatron. while the Matrix gave Rodimus Prime a massive power boost, and made him effectively invulnerable to Galvatron's blasts...

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Exactly, that's why you are clinging to your theories, you don't see that they are all situation based scenarios.

I'll say it again, if this is true, then the Comics are just as guilty and should also be thrown out with equal contempt.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Really? No...really?

Yes.... Really...... your apparently ignoring the obvious.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
First, let's not over look the fact that you just said "He thre the STICK, it PIERCED.". A stick pierced Optimus Prime, yet Megatron's fusion cannon didn't, yet his pistol did.

You are assuming the specification of the blasts, where they hit and how, mostly. You have no officiality there.

Either way, it's no different. Dinobot Island AGAIN, the Decepticons had all the Autobots pinned down under a laser assault and they were just laying there without a scratch on them. It's ALL plot device. If lasers were able to penetrate as easily as they did (Shuttle hijack? Prowl was killed in a single shot, and others in not much more.) then most of them would have been dead in this scene, but they weren't.

Well, that particular "Stick" was a very sharp peice of metal, thrown at a fairly high velocity.

My oficiality is observation of the movie, one can clearly see where Megs's shots hit Prime.

I can easily lay claim to low powered shots due to Megs saying "I want to savour this moment" meaning he wanted it to last...

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
I'm giving you all the proof you could need, you are ignoring it and creating ways you can justify it. "He fired the pistol in specific places.", bs. They were too careless to properly animate the show, you think they'd actually make note of where he's being shot?

BS is it?... And we are talking about a scene that happened in the MOVIE... they did put more effort into it... Now who's making excuses...

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
I said this too, yet you continued the debate rather than agreeing.

-AC

I was explaining myself... you continued to debate.

Alpha Centauri
Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
No, you just said that if the Dinobots were not destroyed, then the episodes couldn't continue, I just demonstrated how wrong you are.

You didn't demonstrate anything, and considering they abandoned the Autobots because they took the risk of helping them and got hurt, the episode couldn't have happened if they were not hurt.

Speaking of which, that's another episode where Grimlock disposes of the Decepticon's leader in one swift motion.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Because it's still an official capability, despite your objection.

Tell me how many firefights Galvatron has been in with the Autobots, then tell me how many times he has either fleed, been overwhelmed or damaged. Then tell me how many times he's used this planet-destroying blast, seeing as he could more or less win any fight if it was meant to be a regular ability and not a plot device.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
I am allowed to reference profiles as long as they are official.... you can assume as much as you like, and I'll keep correcting you.

I'm the one correcting you.

I have a task for you, here is Bruticus' profile:

"The team's combined form of Bruticus is a successful merging of the minds of the Combaticons. He isn't slow and awkward like some other combiners, and will follow commands instantly and without question, with terrifying efficiency and awesome strength. The only problem is that without someone to tell him what to do, Bruticus will do nothing.".

Tell me how quickly you would cite that in a discussion. Am I to understand that, being an official profile, you would and have accepted it simply because it's official?

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Then the comics are just as guilty of suffering ploit damage as the cartoon.

Of course they aren't AS guilty. My point was, if you're going to discuss battles, discuss the comics which actually had stories and were created with the purpose of telling them. The toons were commercials for the toys, essentially. Enjoyable ones, but nonetheless commercials.

Grimlock, in the comics, is much smarter and stronger than the cartoon.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
It was very different... foir one, it's two entirely different sources of reformatting... two Unicron actually amped Galvatron. while the Matrix gave Rodimus Prime a massive power boost, and made him effectively invulnerable to Galvatron's blasts...

A) Amped/Boosted, same thing.

B) What do you base that on? Either way they were both clearly invulnerable for a time, and Galvatron lost.

C) Since then, Hot Rod and Galvatron have both been visibly injured.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
I'll say it again, if this is true, then the Comics are just as guilty and should also be thrown out with equal contempt.

I'm not saying they should be THROWN OUT, I'm saying discussing battles in general, given the nature of the cartoons (Which you can only discuss.), is rather fruitless as it comes down to who we prefer, not who is actually better.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Yes.... Really...... your apparently ignoring the obvious.

You do need to learn to detect sarcasm, or in the event you actually believed I wasn't aware it catered to kids, you need a lot more.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Well, that particular "Stick" was a very sharp peice of metal, thrown at a fairly high velocity.

And you are the one who dares to tell me "Hey man, it's just a kids show.". You are reading WAY too much into it for the sake of your own argument, without any proof.

Stick or not, sharp or not, it proves my point. Megatron's cannon is more powerful than any of the weapons used to kill Prime, and Prime has taken that cannon on many occassions, proving that it's just plot device.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
My oficiality is observation of the movie, one can clearly see where Megs's shots hit Prime.

And one can clearly see about a million and one animation errors elsewhere. You can't pick and choose what you take as canon and what you don't.

What you fail to see is where he hits him isn't of any consequence, what matters is how it contradicts what came before. The ship hijacking? Yeah. Despite the Autobots standing up to worse assaults, they met their end in this scene, not because of any specific power or whatever, but because it was a plot/marketing device.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
I can easily lay claim to low powered shots due to Megs saying "I want to savour this moment" meaning he wanted it to last...

Yeah, exactly. You can lay claim to any number of bs things that you've pulled out of your ass and cannot prove, due to reading far too much into it than anyone really should, but that'd also prove that you ARE just making claims for the sake of it.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
BS is it?... And we are talking about a scene that happened in the MOVIE... they did put more effort into it... Now who's making excuses...

I'm not making excuses, you're failing to see the issue here.

Regardless of how he shot him, where, why or anything, he shot him and he damaged him, badly. Prime suffered massive onslaughts in the series and didn't gain a scratch. You are just refusing to accept that it's all a means to make something else happen, and can't be held as concrete.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
I was explaining myself... you continued to debate.

Because you're talking complete bs.

-AC

Darkstorm Zero
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
You didn't demonstrate anything, and considering they abandoned the Autobots because they took the risk of helping them and got hurt, the episode couldn't have happened if they were not hurt.

Speaking of which, that's another episode where Grimlock disposes of the Decepticon's leader in one swift motion.

Your brilliant deduction disreguards the Dinobots usual distatste for the Autobots.

Congratulations, you've hereby been the title of Most ignorant.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Tell me how many firefights Galvatron has been in with the Autobots, then tell me how many times he has either fleed, been overwhelmed or damaged. Then tell me how many times he's used this planet-destroying blast, seeing as he could more or less win any fight if it was meant to be a regular ability and not a plot device.

Do you understand the physics of planet busting shots? do you realise that even though it makes him a certified Planet Killer, that both times he either had to strike an unstable point (Thrull being a planet of violent volcanic plasma) and Webworld had to be coreshot.

And dude, your now taking the power he has out of context entirely (Why oh why doesnt he use his planet killing shot to end earth and cybertroen?!?!), your talking about a show catered for kids back in the 80's, get a grip, no matter what you say, Galvatron is "STILL" a certified planet killer.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
I'm the one correcting you.

I have a task for you, here is Bruticus' profile:

"The team's combined form of Bruticus is a successful merging of the minds of the Combaticons. He isn't slow and awkward like some other combiners, and will follow commands instantly and without question, with terrifying efficiency and awesome strength. The only problem is that without someone to tell him what to do, Bruticus will do nothing.".

Tell me how quickly you would cite that in a discussion. Am I to understand that, being an official profile, you would and have accepted it simply because it's official?

Your not correcting anything...

Depends on weather or not I'm talking about the Cartoon or comic.

Remember, I only ever cited the profiles when you said that comics are the only things we should use...

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Of course they aren't AS guilty. My point was, if you're going to discuss battles, discuss the comics which actually had stories and were created with the purpose of telling them. The toons were commercials for the toys, essentially. Enjoyable ones, but nonetheless commercials.

Grimlock, in the comics, is much smarter and stronger than the cartoon.

Your then playing favourites with mediums, can't have that.

and it's not up to you, unless your the thread starter.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
A) Amped/Boosted, same thing.

B) What do you base that on? Either way they were both clearly invulnerable for a time, and Galvatron lost.

C) Since then, Hot Rod and Galvatron have both been visibly injured.

Asmile Don't play scemantics...

Bsmile Err... Galvatron firing an entire volley at Rodimus, and every shot bounced off harmlessly until one landed ON the Matrix...

Csmile You pointed out that the actual amplification Rodimus received in the movie is limited... and Unicron was dead, therefore Galvatron's invulnerability and the greater majority of his power went with him.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
I'm not saying they should be THROWN OUT, I'm saying discussing battles in general, given the nature of the cartoons (Which you can only discuss.), is rather fruitless as it comes down to who we prefer, not who is actually better.

No... I don't prefer Galvatron over Grimlock... the fact is, Galvatron has better demonstrated FEATS in the toons...

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
You do need to learn to detect sarcasm, or in the event you actually believed I wasn't aware it catered to kids, you need a lot more.

Then why argue?

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
And you are the one who dares to tell me "Hey man, it's just a kids show.". You are reading WAY too much into it for the sake of your own argument, without any proof.

Stick or not, sharp or not, it proves my point. Megatron's cannon is more powerful than any of the weapons used to kill Prime, and Prime has taken that cannon on many occassions, proving that it's just plot device.

...........................................

Are you daffed? Whats more of a plot device? Prime surviving the cannon unscathed? or the more realistic "Person A throws sharp metal shard at Person B, Person B gets stabbed by sharp metal shard."

You cannot take out events of one occasion just because it so happens that he survived it before... that fact is, it still took a sustained assault to down Prime, and we simply don't know the properties of that Sword Megs used, or the gun he used in the movie... unless you have specs I'm unaware of.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
And one can clearly see about a million and one animation errors elsewhere. You can't pick and choose what you take as canon and what you don't.

What you fail to see is where he hits him isn't of any consequence, what matters is how it contradicts what came before. The ship hijacking? Yeah. Despite the Autobots standing up to worse assaults, they met their end in this scene, not because of any specific power or whatever, but because it was a plot/marketing device.

#1: I didn't. I used the thing as an undivided whole, pick one instance of any of the feats I mentioned that can be atributed to Animation Errors. Go on.

#2: You don't have the right to choose that, nor do you have the right to throw anything away based on vague extrapolation or a shitty excuse... I made my points, I proved them, you cannot refute them with the excuse of "Shitty animation".

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Yeah, exactly. You can lay claim to any number of bs things that you've pulled out of your ass and cannot prove, due to reading far too much into it than anyone really should, but that'd also prove that you ARE just making claims for the sake of it.

It makes far more sense than your "Shitty animation from the movie" argument.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
I'm not making excuses, you're failing to see the issue here.

Regardless of how he shot him, where, why or anything, he shot him and he damaged him, badly. Prime suffered massive onslaughts in the series and didn't gain a scratch. You are just refusing to accept that it's all a means to make something else happen, and can't be held as concrete.

First, Hasbro forbade the deaths of characters until the movie...

2nd, alot of Prime's surviving without a scratch can be reasonably explained.

You have not ever provided one shred of ANYTHING to back your cause.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Because you're talking complete bs.

-AC

You've won the "Hypocrititcal Fool" Award as well, thank you for playing.

Alpha Centauri
Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Your brilliant deduction disreguards the Dinobots usual distatste for the Autobots.

Congratulations, you've hereby been the title of Most ignorant.

They don't dislike the Autobots, they dislike authority which leaves them, sometimes, at odds with the autobots. They are Autobots after all.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Do you understand the physics of planet busting shots? do you realise that even though it makes him a certified Planet Killer, that both times he either had to strike an unstable point (Thrull being a planet of violent volcanic plasma) and Webworld had to be coreshot.

And dude, your now taking the power he has out of context entirely (Why oh why doesnt he use his planet killing shot to end earth and cybertroen?!?!), your talking about a show catered for kids back in the 80's, get a grip, no matter what you say, Galvatron is "STILL" a certified planet killer.

You do realise the hypocricy in saying it's just an 80s kid show, yet applying physics of how Galvatron blew up a planet, right? Let me just clarify that first.

So in both cases, it wasn't Galvatron's power in the first place was it? It was a very powerful blast coupled with (and thanks to.) many other contributing factors, and nothing is suggesting a powerful blast from anyone else couldn't have done the same. You are proving the point of it being in context, a.k.a a plot device, but then using that to push the idea of how he'd win a one on one battle, despite knowing he wouldn't/hasn't/couldn't.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Your not correcting anything...

Depends on weather or not I'm talking about the Cartoon or comic.

Remember, I only ever cited the profiles when you said that comics are the only things we should use...

Either, just answer the question. Would you agree with that profile simply because it's official?

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Your then playing favourites with mediums, can't have that.

And you aren't?

Furthermore, the toons were far less focused on story, attributes and building characters as the comics were. The comics were not a commercial for the toys, they would be the preferable medium to discuss fighting, if any at all, and Galvatron isn't exactly weak.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
and it's not up to you, unless your the thread starter.

I shall PM and ask.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Asmile Don't play scemantics...

Then stop playing "I'll use words and specifics that really do not need to be delved into, because it's Transformers and we should only go by what we see and what it is.". Though amped/boosted = same thing.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Bsmile Err... Galvatron firing an entire volley at Rodimus, and every shot bounced off harmlessly until one landed ON the Matrix...

Yes, and? The same could be said for Galvatron, he was invulnerable too, in your books, right? It was Rodimus' "moment", he wasn't going to get shot in the face was he?

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Csmile You pointed out that the actual amplification Rodimus received in the movie is limited... and Unicron was dead, therefore Galvatron's invulnerability and the greater majority of his power went with him.

Let's remember what Unicron said to Megatron; "I will provide you with a new body, and new troops to command.", "And?", "And NOTHING.".

Wherein do you deduce he was invulnerable in the first place, and not just stronger? New body doesn't equal invulnerable, oh...you're just assuming Galvatron could only be hurt by Unicron cos he was the only one who hurt Galvatron in the movie. Despite the fact that Galvatron didn't even fight anyone to BE hurt, really.

Furthermore, as I said, they've been hurt since then.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
No... I don't prefer Galvatron over Grimlock... the fact is, Galvatron has better demonstrated FEATS in the toons...

For reasons stated, never have we seen proof that he could actually use it in combat, or that he would. In fact, there has been many a firefight where he has just held continuous fire on Autobots, without killing them, despite being able to destroy planets (Which wasn't even him SOLELY.).

He can "destroy planets.", but...he couldn't just destroy Unicron? If you really want to get into such things as claiming bs like "Megatron used low powered blasts.", then why didn't Galvatron kill Unicron? Because it was all plot and everything surrounding it happened for a reason, like every episode. It's too flimsy to judge.

Besides blowing up a planet, which wasn't even his own power, name feats he has done in the toons that surpass Grimlock.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Are you daffed? Whats more of a plot device? Prime surviving the cannon unscathed? or the more realistic "Person A throws sharp metal shard at Person B, Person B gets stabbed by sharp metal shard."

You cannot take out events of one occasion just because it so happens that he survived it before... that fact is, it still took a sustained assault to down Prime, and we simply don't know the properties of that Sword Megs used, or the gun he used in the movie... unless you have specs I'm unaware of.

Daffed? Huh? What the hell is "daffed"? Why are you saying such silly things as "We don't know the properties of the sword or gun used."? They didn't think "Hmm, what model shall we make this gun?", it's not Star Wars. You are taking it far too seriously, and the reason I am "arguing" is because I am illustrating to you that it wasn't meant to be picked apart as you are doing.

It was obviously just a standard gun that somebody had dropped or lost wasn't it? OR are we going so far into bs mode that we (You.) are suggesting "Just because they didn't say any specs, doesn't mean there aren't any."?

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
#1: I didn't. I used the thing as an undivided whole, pick one instance of any of the feats I mentioned that can be atributed to Animation Errors. Go on.

#2: You don't have the right to choose that, nor do you have the right to throw anything away based on vague extrapolation or a shitty excuse... I made my points, I proved them, you cannot refute them with the excuse of "Shitty animation".

A) You missed the point. The animators and directors etc didn't care enough to erase those things, why do you make the assumption that they would have spent time discussing what model of blaster it was? Or anything that specific?

B) You don't have the right to place possibility where, in the cartoon, there quite clearly is no explanation beyond "It is what it is.". You proved what? That you are the one taking a cartoon way more specifically than it was intended to be taken? That you paid attention to where he shot him? Ok, good. So what? That doesn't disprove the fact that he has endured sustained assaults and not suffered a scratch. You think Megatron just happened to discover a discarded gun that was more powerful than his own FUSION CANNON and all the other Decepticon guns that Prime was bombarded with on Dinobot Island? Ironhide and Ratchet got killed by being shot through their windscreens, yet on Dinobot Island Ironhide is right there with Prime being blasted to hell and recovers minutes later.

It's all device, none of it can be taken seriously enough to judge who would win any kind of fight.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
It makes far more sense than your "Shitty animation from the movie" argument.

If you had an ounce of brain power you'd realise the point was that if they don't care enough to iron out THOSE creases, what makes you think they're going to give Megatron a specific blaster and concentrate on making Megatron shoot him in specific spots? It's obvious the writers and animators were not too picky on being neat or specific.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
First, Hasbro forbade the deaths of characters until the movie...

Precisely, why? Because they planned to just kill them all off to make way for new toys. Why? Because it was essentially just a commercial. So all in all, why is it stupid to judge fights on such flimsy things? Because...they are such frivolous and flimsy things.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
2nd, alot of Prime's surviving without a scratch can be reasonably explained.

Yeah, like....Hasbro not wanting to kill any toys/characters off until the movie. Simple as.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
You have not ever provided one shred of ANYTHING to back your cause.

I haven't sat here and thought up bs such as claiming Megatron used a specific kind of blaster, no, because it simply doesn't need to be discussed.

The fact of the matter is; everything in the toons happened for reasons that did not relate to the personal power or lack thereof, of the characters. Durability was given or taken according to storyline or marketing plan, it wasn't anything serious.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
You've won the "Hypocrititcal Fool" Award as well, thank you for playing.

You just stole that and the previous award from me, but it's ok, you deserve them more than I do. This forum is apparantly full of posers. Oh well, it happens I guess. A movie comes out and everyone's a fan.

-AC

Darkstorm Zero
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
They don't dislike the Autobots, they dislike authority which leaves them, sometimes, at odds with the autobots. They are Autobots after all.

That doesn't mean anything...

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
You do realise the hypocricy in saying it's just an 80s kid show, yet applying physics of how Galvatron blew up a planet, right? Let me just clarify that first.

So in both cases, it wasn't Galvatron's power in the first place was it? It was a very powerful blast coupled with (and thanks to.) many other contributing factors, and nothing is suggesting a powerful blast from anyone else couldn't have done the same. You are proving the point of it being in context, a.k.a a plot device, but then using that to push the idea of how he'd win a one on one battle, despite knowing he wouldn't/hasn't/couldn't.

No not plot device, a plot device requires Galvatron to ACTUALLY be more powerful than normal. the two planet busting shots can be attributed to circumstance, but is directly caused by his own normal power... since there was no explanation for the destruction of the planet Goo with nothing byt 3 arm cannon blasts. Thank you

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Either, just answer the question. Would you agree with that profile simply because it's official?

Read my answer in the previous post, Cartoons I argue without profiles because they are not relevant to the toon, but when argung Comics, then yes, I use the profiles because they are THE source.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
And you aren't?

Furthermore, the toons were far less focused on story, attributes and building characters as the comics were. The comics were not a commercial for the toys, they would be the preferable medium to discuss fighting, if any at all, and Galvatron isn't exactly weak.

No, I'm not, I told you, I debate the Toons separately, I don't debate the old comics cause I don't know them, I can however debate the Dreamwave and IDW ones.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
I shall PM and ask.

You do that.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Then stop playing "I'll use words and specifics that really do not need to be delved into, because it's Transformers and we should only go by what we see and what it is.". Though amped/boosted = same thing.

Why don't they need to be delved into? You want to debate who wins, then lets figure out why they win or lose, instead of just saying "Grinlock wins cause he's bigger..."

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Yes, and? The same could be said for Galvatron, he was invulnerable too, in your books, right? It was Rodimus' "moment", he wasn't going to get shot in the face was he?

.............................

Your smoking something illegal Alpha, I'd swear to it in court.........

Where did I say Galvatron was invulnerable during the movie?

I said specifically that Galvatron's invulnerability was ONLY covered in the Comics, and even then ONLY while Unicron was whole and alive.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Let's remember what Unicron said to Megatron; "I will provide you with a new body, and new troops to command.", "And?", "And NOTHING.".

Wherein do you deduce he was invulnerable in the first place, and not just stronger? New body doesn't equal invulnerable, oh...you're just assuming Galvatron could only be hurt by Unicron cos he was the only one who hurt Galvatron in the movie. Despite the fact that Galvatron didn't even fight anyone to BE hurt, really.

Furthermore, as I said, they've been hurt since then.

Read above..............

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
For reasons stated, never have we seen proof that he could actually use it in combat, or that he would. In fact, there has been many a firefight where he has just held continuous fire on Autobots, without killing them, despite being able to destroy planets (Which wasn't even him SOLELY.).

He can "destroy planets.", but...he couldn't just destroy Unicron? If you really want to get into such things as claiming bs like "Megatron used low powered blasts.", then why didn't Galvatron kill Unicron? Because it was all plot and everything surrounding it happened for a reason, like every episode. It's too flimsy to judge.

Besides blowing up a planet, which wasn't even his own power, name feats he has done in the toons that surpass Grimlock.

Unicron was ONLY vulnerable to the Matrix for starters... so no, Galvatron couldn't kill Unicron with his VERY BEST shot, neither can any other Transformer.

And Galvatron, and Megatron for starters have been credited for taking on and defeating Devastator and the triplechangers solo, credited for taking out Prime solo, credited or planet killing, credited for singlehandedly subjugating the entire Decepticon forces,

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Daffed? Huh? What the hell is "daffed"? Why are you saying such silly things as "We don't know the properties of the sword or gun used."? They didn't think "Hmm, what model shall we make this gun?", it's not Star Wars. You are taking it far too seriously, and the reason I am "arguing" is because I am illustrating to you that it wasn't meant to be picked apart as you are doing.

It was obviously just a standard gun that somebody had dropped or lost wasn't it? OR are we going so far into bs mode that we (You.) are suggesting "Just because they didn't say any specs, doesn't mean there aren't any."?

Every weapon has specs... it may have been just a standard blaster weapon... my point is, you have no proof, of either A: it was a shitstick, or B: Megatron didn't hit him where I said he did, despite the fact that onscreen, he clearly does... Now tell me this Alpha, what happens when you've, #1: Been stabbed by a flying peice of metal weackage that you've yanked out immediately afterwards then #2: then copped a horizontal slice right into that same open wound, this causes you to faulter and step away. #3: A few moments later, you've copped not 1, not 2, but 3 direct hits into the same open wound, followed by one to your gun arm, and one to the face, knocking you to the floor?

I can easily tell you what happens, Your going to die in horrible pain, if your not dead already.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
A) You missed the point. The animators and directors etc didn't care enough to erase those things, why do you make the assumption that they would have spent time discussing what model of blaster it was? Or anything that specific?

B) You don't have the right to place possibility where, in the cartoon, there quite clearly is no explanation beyond "It is what it is.". You proved what? That you are the one taking a cartoon way more specifically than it was intended to be taken? That you paid attention to where he shot him? Ok, good. So what? That doesn't disprove the fact that he has endured sustained assaults and not suffered a scratch. You think Megatron just happened to discover a discarded gun that was more powerful than his own FUSION CANNON and all the other Decepticon guns that Prime was bombarded with on Dinobot Island? Ironhide and Ratchet got killed by being shot through their windscreens, yet on Dinobot Island Ironhide is right there with Prime being blasted to hell and recovers minutes later.

It's all device, none of it can be taken seriously enough to judge who would win any kind of fight.

Your refferning episodes to the movie for starters, mistake #1.

You don't want to take a more logical explanation because it's cutting into your debate, mistake #2.

Specifically, that blaster was using the same sound effect as Megs Fusion Cannon, meaning it could very well be a better model than a standard pistol, therefore your incorrect in your assessment anyways, mistake #3.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
If you had an ounce of brain power you'd realise the point was that if they don't care enough to iron out THOSE creases, what makes you think they're going to give Megatron a specific blaster and concentrate on making Megatron shoot him in specific spots? It's obvious the writers and animators were not too picky on being neat or specific.

Your searching for excuses, why wouldn't they? Animation mistakes happen all the time, most notably when episodes get shipped to Corea to be colored and animated there, you'll find more than 95% of the mistakes happen there, and pleas epoint out any heavy mistakes in the movie that disputes my claims... come on braniac.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Precisely, why? Because they planned to just kill them all off to make way for new toys. Why? Because it was essentially just a commercial. So all in all, why is it stupid to judge fights on such flimsy things? Because...they are such frivolous and flimsy things.

.......... Even if the toons where made to sell the toys, they STILL follow the story and give respect to the characters, you arn't going to be the judge of what is right and wrong for ME to use or debate with.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Yeah, like....Hasbro not wanting to kill any toys/characters off until the movie. Simple as.

Copout.

Darkstorm Zero
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
I haven't sat here and thought up bs such as claiming Megatron used a specific kind of blaster, no, because it simply doesn't need to be discussed.

The fact of the matter is; everything in the toons happened for reasons that did not relate to the personal power or lack thereof, of the characters. Durability was given or taken according to storyline or marketing plan, it wasn't anything serious.

.......................BS? Then prove it?

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
You just stole that and the previous award from me, but it's ok, you deserve them more than I do. This forum is apparantly full of posers. Oh well, it happens I guess. A movie comes out and everyone's a fan.

Really? oh well... then you'd better stop making a hypocrite out of yourself.

I am no poser Alpha, you may know the comics better than me, but I do know the toons aparently LOADS better than you do... so quit the sidesnips and move on.

Alpha Centauri
Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
That doesn't mean anything...

It means they don't dislike the Autobots, which you claimed.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
No, not plot device, a plot device requires Galvatron to ACTUALLY be more powerful than normal. the two planet busting shots can be attributed to circumstance, but is directly caused by his own normal power... since there was no explanation for the destruction of the planet Goo with nothing byt 3 arm cannon blasts. Thank you.

Of course a plot device doesn't actually require him to be more powerful, do you know what a plot device is?

Also, there's no explanation so, disregarding everything we know about how flimsy the show is, you adopt the belief that the explanation is one you wish to believe?

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Read my answer in the previous post, Cartoons I argue without profiles because they are not relevant to the toon, but when argung Comics, then yes, I use the profiles because they are THE source.

Answer the question for either then. Would you agree or disagree with his profile?

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
No, I'm not, I told you, I debate the Toons separately, I don't debate the old comics cause I don't know them, I can however debate the Dreamwave and IDW ones.

Based on what? What actually happens, or what the short profiles say? A lot more happens in the comics than is referenced in the profiles you know.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Why don't they need to be delved into? You want to debate who wins, then lets figure out why they win or lose, instead of just saying "Grinlock wins cause he's bigger..."

I didn't actually say that, first off. Second, they don't need to be delved into because we're all debating based on preference, essentially. There isn't enough concrete material in the toons (Your favourable medium.) to suggest a win for either, so it comes down to who we want to win.

We can discuss why we think either will win or lose loosely, but when the material you are basing it on suggests many things as being possible, half of which contradict each other, how possible or necessary is it to discuss?

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Your smoking something illegal Alpha, I'd swear to it in court.........

Where did I say Galvatron was invulnerable during the movie?

I said specifically that Galvatron's invulnerability was ONLY covered in the Comics, and even then ONLY while Unicron was whole and alive.

Fair play, I misread your post. Apologies.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Unicron was ONLY vulnerable to the Matrix for starters... so no, Galvatron couldn't kill Unicron with his VERY BEST shot, neither can any other Transformer.

Precisely, so to that end, what have we learned about plot devices? That a transformer's ability is given or taken by what the writers want to be depicted, even if it's not necessarily going to happen again or accurate.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
And Galvatron, and Megatron for starters have been credited for taking on and defeating Devastator and the triplechangers solo, credited for taking out Prime solo, credited or planet killing, credited for singlehandedly subjugating the entire Decepticon forces.

We all know how Megatron "took out" Prime, don't we? Megatron's power over the Decepticons was always going to shine through because he's the leader. They weren't going to let Devestator win, were they?

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Every weapon has specs... it may have been just a standard blaster weapon... my point is, you have no proof, of either A: it was a shitstick, or B: Megatron didn't hit him where I said he did, despite the fact that onscreen, he clearly does...

For crying out loud, I'm not denying where he's being hit, I'm saying it's irrelevant because it's in direct contradiction to what he has endured before or since, and was there to serve as a means to kill him.

I don't need proof, you were the first one to insinuate that it might not have been a simple blaster, you have the burden of proof. Although in this case it's just a matter of Ockham's razor, and that amount is clear to anyone with a feel of the Transformers and how it was written.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Now tell me this Alpha, what happens when you've, #1: Been stabbed by a flying peice of metal weackage that you've yanked out immediately afterwards then #2: then copped a horizontal slice right into that same open wound, this causes you to faulter and step away. #3: A few moments later, you've copped not 1, not 2, but 3 direct hits into the same open wound, followed by one to your gun arm, and one to the face, knocking you to the floor?

I can easily tell you what happens, Your going to die in horrible pain, if your not dead already.

Point being what? You don't seem to grasp the fact that this was all there to make it the final, epic battle between the two. He had endured a ton of shit before hand and never got so much as a scratch, I'm not even saying it had to kill him. All this and we still know that the only reason it happened was because of marketing, not one being stronger than another.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Your refferning episodes to the movie for starters, mistake #1.

Why is that a problem for you? Same writers. Same continuity.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
You don't want to take a more logical explanation because it's cutting into your debate, mistake #2.

You being overly analytical because YOU don't want to admit that the simplest explanation is, in this case, the correct one, is what's ruining YOUR debate, not mine.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Specifically, that blaster was using the same sound effect as Megs Fusion Cannon, meaning it could very well be a better model than a standard pistol, therefore your incorrect in your assessment anyways, mistake #3.

And Thundercracker once had Starscream's voice, Vortex once has Onslaught's, there were tons of audio errors also. What's to say it wasn't one of those? I'm not going to take your route, though, because you are just clutching at straws. You are the one who raised the issue of "Maybe it's a better model of blaster.". Not only is that completely desperate and unfounded, but it's ridiculous. Why would it be? It's just there. It has Megatron's cannon sound, big deal, it doesn't necessarily mean anything. Why are we then to assume it's MORE powerful if it sounds EXACTLY like his cannon? You're getting into areas that needn't be discussed because you know it just comes down to whatever the writers feel like doing.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Your searching for excuses, why wouldn't they? Animation mistakes happen all the time, most notably when episodes get shipped to Corea to be colored and animated there, you'll find more than 95% of the mistakes happen there, and pleas epoint out any heavy mistakes in the movie that disputes my claims... come on braniac.

Do you have trouble distinguishing my points? I'm not denying where he was shot, I'm suggesting that you putting so much emphasis on it is pointless. If they didn't care enough to do a shitload of things in the series and movie, why would the writers be so specific as to where he was shot? Ockham's Razor once again, simplest explanation is the best, and the simplest explanation is mine. Hence why you are spiralling into endless "What if? What if? Maybe it was...".

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
.......... Even if the toons where made to sell the toys, they STILL follow the story and give respect to the characters, you arn't going to be the judge of what is right and wrong for ME to use or debate with.

I'm not telling you what to debate with, but you also don't have the right to disregard something all fans clearly acknowledge; that most of the shit that happens can contradict other things, and you are ignoring most of these by way of making excuses for them.

The simple point is; Megatron found a gun and shot Prime, Prime was easily wounded because they wanted to kill him off, not because of any specific shots or power. Simple. Proof? He gets killed easily and quickly in Takara: Headmasters when they also decide he isn't needed, as does Ultra Magnus.

How is that a copout? My entire point is that everything is contradictory, everything is subject to plot and this is all down to the writers, precisely why it's silly to judge fights on it.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
BS? Then prove it?

I never introduced the notion of him conveniently finding a mega powered blaster that contained more force than his own cannon, you did. You have the burden of proof. Do you have any reasoning beyond "It had the exact same sound so it might have been MORE powerful." that backs you up?

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
I am no poser Alpha, you may know the comics better than me, but I do know the toons aparently LOADS better than you do... so quit the sidesnips and move on

You are a poser. You know nothing about the toons, you've watched them, that's about it. You are obviously oblivious to how things work in the universe of TF and the writers' minds.

-AC

Alpha Centauri
That said, we're not even discussing the topic anymore.

I'd be happy to discuss this and continue it in a separate thread, if you would also like to.

-AC

Sadako of Girth
This "Galvatron destroying planets under his own cannon's steam", I can't and don't go for.

But he still was so insane and totally hard that in the "Time Wars" run it actually took a rip in Space/time to destroy him for the 1st time. (Stripping him down to the skeleton)

Grimlock has been and would be done by less.

Also, read "Target:2006".

Then you'll see the lengths that Galvatron thought it neccesary to go to destroy Unicron.

True that Galvatron couldn't even so much of think of attacking Unicron (Unicron would either torture him before he got the chance, or when when Galvatron was wailing away on Unicron with everything he had while Unicron was in robot mode, Unicron simply grabbed him and ate him like some sort of tic-tac.)

This is why Galvatron would have to time travel back to 1986 to before Unicron was near and the meeting with Megatron post battle in the movie. He'd then be free to prepare and build towards usurping his master in the future - without being able to be remote-tortured.

As far as the comics went. Whenever they met, Galvatron'd invariably whip Grimlock's ass.

Sadako of Girth
Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero








.......... Even if the toons where made to sell the toys, they STILL follow the story and give respect to the characters...



Sorry to butt in, but no... Marvel was the Canon.

Sunbow's cartoon was 70% contradictary to the canonistic Comic.
There was some unification after the movie, but anything before that...? You'd be blown away by the diffrence.

Plus the cartoon, while being challenging back then, by network cartoon standards was much less dark than the comic got.

EG: The target masters were nebulan (humans, basically.) and Cyclonus was a target master too, paired with Nightstick.
Megatron winds up killing Cyclonus in 2007/2008 by decapitation, but not before grabbing the transformed nebulan out of Cyclonus' hands and crushes him with his bare hands right in front of a horrified Cyclonus.

People get killed, injured, paralysed.... All kinds of stuff.
When did the cartoon ever get that gruesome...?
(Ok, Daniel was paralysed by a decep in S4...)
It was definitely more kiddy-fied and had way less actual continuity.

Still theres plenty of scans about and theres no reason not to experience the read for yourself, should you deceide to catch up on what was a great run. "Carwash of doom" aside, of course. smile

Alpha Centauri
I said all that, and he still denied it and claimed he knew more about the toons.

I'd honestly rather just stop discussing if Megatron had a certain kind of blaster and what was/wasn't plot device, and just find out what medium we're discussing.

-AC

Sadako of Girth
smile

Darkstorm Zero
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
It means they don't dislike the Autobots, which you claimed.

Huh? I could have sworn that Grimlock has said numerous times that he doesn't like the "Weak" Autobots...

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Of course a plot device doesn't actually require him to be more powerful, do you know what a plot device is?

Also, there's no explanation so, disregarding everything we know about how flimsy the show is, you adopt the belief that the explanation is one you wish to believe?

There is a difference bitween the terms 'Plot Device', and 'Plot Induced Stupidity'.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Answer the question for either then. Would you agree or disagree with his profile?

In reguards to the toon? No I would not use them. If used for the Comics, then yes.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Based on what? What actually happens, or what the short profiles say? A lot more happens in the comics than is referenced in the profiles you know.

I use both.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
I didn't actually say that, first off. Second, they don't need to be delved into because we're all debating based on preference, essentially. There isn't enough concrete material in the toons (Your favourable medium.) to suggest a win for either, so it comes down to who we want to win.

We can discuss why we think either will win or lose loosely, but when the material you are basing it on suggests many things as being possible, half of which contradict each other, how possible or necessary is it to discuss?

Thats when we either scale up or down to an acceptable middle ground, which I have no problem doing...

Even so, scaling back from planet busting power is still a hell of a feat.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Fair play, I misread your post. Apologies.

No problem.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Precisely, so to that end, what have we learned about plot devices? That a transformer's ability is given or taken by what the writers want to be depicted, even if it's not necessarily going to happen again or accurate.

The comics can suffer the exact same tragedy, and in marvels case frequently does.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
We all know how Megatron "took out" Prime, don't we? Megatron's power over the Decepticons was always going to shine through because he's the leader. They weren't going to let Devestator win, were they?

Like I said, it is well within the realm of possability.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
For crying out loud, I'm not denying where he's being hit, I'm saying it's irrelevant because it's in direct contradiction to what he has endured before or since, and was there to serve as a means to kill him.

I don't need proof, you were the first one to insinuate that it might not have been a simple blaster, you have the burden of proof. Although in this case it's just a matter of Ockham's razor, and that amount is clear to anyone with a feel of the Transformers and how it was written.

Dude, you obviously don't know the toons as well as you claim, Brime has been in dire straights during the pre movie seasons more than once.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Point being what? You don't seem to grasp the fact that this was all there to make it the final, epic battle between the two. He had endured a ton of shit before hand and never got so much as a scratch, I'm not even saying it had to kill him. All this and we still know that the only reason it happened was because of marketing, not one being stronger than another.

Then middle ground it.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Why is that a problem for you? Same writers. Same continuity.

Dude, the toons have had as many as 25 different writers, each doing different episodes.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
You being overly analytical because YOU don't want to admit that the simplest explanation is, in this case, the correct one, is what's ruining YOUR debate, not mine.

Wrong, I anylise because thats what you do in debates. not throw in the simplest explanation and stick with it.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
And Thundercracker once had Starscream's voice, Vortex once has Onslaught's, there were tons of audio errors also. What's to say it wasn't one of those? I'm not going to take your route, though, because you are just clutching at straws. You are the one who raised the issue of "Maybe it's a better model of blaster.". Not only is that completely desperate and unfounded, but it's ridiculous. Why would it be? It's just there. It has Megatron's cannon sound, big deal, it doesn't necessarily mean anything. Why are we then to assume it's MORE powerful if it sounds EXACTLY like his cannon? You're getting into areas that needn't be discussed because you know it just comes down to whatever the writers feel like doing.

........... Now your cluching at straws......... The movie had very little errors, and the reason for the sound is so the gun actually sounds powerful (Taken from the interviews on Disk 2 of the DVD)

And if you read what YOU yourself just said, you quoted me as saying "Maybe", it's called offering up an explanation... your thesis of someone making a mistake, the same mistake 4 times in less than 5 seconds worth of film is ludicrous.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Do you have trouble distinguishing my points? I'm not denying where he was shot, I'm suggesting that you putting so much emphasis on it is pointless. If they didn't care enough to do a shitload of things in the series and movie, why would the writers be so specific as to where he was shot? Ockham's Razor once again, simplest explanation is the best, and the simplest explanation is mine. Hence why you are spiralling into endless "What if? What if? Maybe it was...".

Am I not allowed to present alternative theories in a debate?

Go home Alpha, your not going to tell me how to debate to suit yourself.

You havn't answered my question yet, Why wouldn't they, if it was a movie destined for the big screen, they would have done all they could to get the details right, because Adults would also be watching it then.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
I'm not telling you what to debate with, but you also don't have the right to disregard something all fans clearly acknowledge; that most of the shit that happens can contradict other things, and you are ignoring most of these by way of making excuses for them.

The simple point is; Megatron found a gun and shot Prime, Prime was easily wounded because they wanted to kill him off, not because of any specific shots or power. Simple. Proof? He gets killed easily and quickly in Takara: Headmasters when they also decide he isn't needed, as does Ultra Magnus.

How is that a copout? My entire point is that everything is contradictory, everything is subject to plot and this is all down to the writers, precisely why it's silly to judge fights on it.

Unfortunately, all that proves is that only some of the capabilities are subject to plot, but not everything was.

I already said the TF series was filled with inconsistency, this is not limited to the Toons either, so if you want to toss one medium, you have to toss all, exept for the very dry stats on the back of the toys. If you want to debate with that, be my guest, me I'm going to debate something with a bit more substance.

As for the Pistol thing, you've no evidence on anything you've claimed, While I have hoardes of onscreen evidence and logical reasoning... this always trumps your "Excuses" in debates my friend.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
I never introduced the notion of him conveniently finding a mega powered blaster that contained more force than his own cannon, you did. You have the burden of proof. Do you have any reasoning beyond "It had the exact same sound so it might have been MORE powerful." that backs you up?

Excuse me........... Where did I claim that the pistol was more powerul than Megs Fusion Cannon? Quote me in big bold letters.

I said that the pistol was more powerful than the standard blaster, but not than that of the Fusion Cannon...

I already offered an explanation of the Dinobot Island Incident, and besides, there are other occasions where Prime was actually damaged badly by the Fusion Cannon.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
You are a poser. You know nothing about the toons, you've watched them, that's about it. You are obviously oblivious to how things work in the universe of TF and the writers' minds.

-AC

Assumption is a debaters worst enemy Alpha, I own ALL the G1 toons and movie on DVD, and just because I present alternative theories does not mean that I don't aknowlege that the toons are filled to the brim with Animation Errors... You think I'm stupid, and thats your choice... I don't throw away material based on half assed assumptions and try to FORCE everyone to debate any particular medium, you do.

That makes you the Poser, and the Fanboy.

Darkstorm Zero
Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Sorry to butt in, but no... Marvel was the Canon.

Sunbow's cartoon was 70% contradictary to the canonistic Comic.
There was some unification after the movie, but anything before that...? You'd be blown away by the diffrence.

Plus the cartoon, while being challenging back then, by network cartoon standards was much less dark than the comic got.

EG: The target masters were nebulan (humans, basically.) and Cyclonus was a target master too, paired with Nightstick.
Megatron winds up killing Cyclonus in 2007/2008 by decapitation, but not before grabbing the transformed nebulan out of Cyclonus' hands and crushes him with his bare hands right in front of a horrified Cyclonus.

People get killed, injured, paralysed.... All kinds of stuff.
When did the cartoon ever get that gruesome...?
(Ok, Daniel was paralysed by a decep in S4...)
It was definitely more kiddy-fied and had way less actual continuity.

Still theres plenty of scans about and theres no reason not to experience the read for yourself, should you deceide to catch up on what was a great run. "Carwash of doom" aside, of course. smile

Do people in here have reading dyslexia? I swear nobody reads what I'm saying, and make shit up...

I NEVER Said that the Marvel Run was not canon....

However, if you want to become specific, only the Toys box story was canon... Shall we debate only the Toys then?

No...

Alrighty... Let me point out one very simple fact, and that is that no medium was specified in this thread, I debated the medium where my expertise lies... and Alpha tried to destroy my right to debate the toons ever in favour of the Comics exclusively.

I have one thing to say Alpha, Go to the Comic vs Forum for that kind of stuff.

Alpha Centauri
Well in short, I don't think there's any point in continuing the debate of "Maybe Megatron had a more powerful blaster." or anything. I, and many others, recognise that there were many contradictions and you just seek farfetched explanations for them, I suppose it has to be an agree-to-disagree stalemate.

The best thing to do now would be for the thread starter to specify the medium.

-AC

Darkstorm Zero
Yeah.... that would help.

And you really think that it's "That" far-fetched? it makes more sense than "It's a mere shitstick" to me.

Scythe
I never understood how Optimus perished, yet when Ultra Magnus was blown to bits, they were able to reform him back together.

Alpha Centauri
Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Yeah.... that would help.

And you really think that it's "That" far-fetched? it makes more sense than "It's a mere shitstick" to me.

The point is, he got pierced by a stick. Metal, powerful throw or not, a stick.

-AC

Darkstorm Zero
Yes... I do admit that was wierd... but that followed by repeated attacks to the same spot.... Prime would at least feel like he's been twisted in half a few times...

Sadako of Girth
Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Do people in here have reading dyslexia? I swear nobody reads what I'm saying, and make shit up...

I NEVER Said that the Marvel Run was not canon....

However, if you want to become specific, only the Toys box story was canon... Shall we debate only the Toys then?

No...

Alrighty... Let me point out one very simple fact, and that is that no medium was specified in this thread, I debated the medium where my expertise lies... and Alpha tried to destroy my right to debate the toons ever in favour of the Comics exclusively.

I have one thing to say Alpha, Go to the Comic vs Forum for that kind of stuff.

"Do people in here have reading dyslexia? I swear nobody reads what I'm saying, and make shit up..."

If that was aimed at me, then I would have to pose the same question..!
For that tone was needless.

And by the way, the "what was more canon: Cartoon vs Comic" debate was raging while I posted, so sue me.

Marvel continuity totally owns Sunbow. And just because you were hardcore on the cartoon and you feel hurt by the slating of it canonically, that doesn't mean that the comics have to defer to the toyboxs.. as the toybox profiles were written by Bob Budianski....
Who was the man behind the comic characters too. smile

So no, the boxes are no more canonical than the comics as they were from the same hand..
But they were a guideline to the character and not events. (Which define characters in our minds way more than a few words on a toybox..)

If anything, this now puts canon in this order:

1.G1 Comics.
2.G1 Toyboxes
3.G1 Cartoon.
4.Adverts.

stick out tongue

Dont think im being hostile here, you are a fan too and thats all good....

Darkstorm Zero
No, the argument was, nobody knew which medium was being used, since I prefer to the cartoon, thats what I chose to ebate and shared my knowlege...

Alpha prefers comics, and then brought in canon validity into it, which ha absolutely nothing to o with the opening post, hence, why the argument fired up.

Sadako of Girth
Well it kinda does have something to do with the opener in so far as
you could never (at least in G1 and apart from the TF movie) take the cartoon's events over the comics as they were so contradictory to not only the comic, but themselves too. The comics, while admittedly not being perfect offered some continuity. Most that saw both comic and cartoon preffered the comic's substance over animation and that is why it is cited so readily. smile

Alpha Centauri
I never said I preferred comics.

-AC

Scythe
Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
2.G1 Toyboxes

I loved those.

Sadako of Girth
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
I never said I preferred comics.

-AC

Fair play. smile

Well most non-casual fans I knew back in the day did.
And I still do, myself.

Scythe
I preferred the G1 toons.

Sadako of Girth
Well I like 'em both (Less so towards mid season 3, in the cartoon's case- I didnt like the 'getting out into space and meeting the poorly concieved alien life out there' thing.. But loved the end like 5 eps of that season.), but tend to take the comics as lore.

The whole space circus thing with Sky Lynx and the kids in the comics annoyed me in a similar way though... I think they may have been running a bit thin on new ideas in both Sunbow and Marvel U.S at that time. Even Budiansky was slated by fans around that period.
Marvel UK were still going strong thanks to Furman's writing though.

Scythe
I have to rewatch most of the mid seasons.

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