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Takes place in the same area as when Yoda and Sidious fought.

1.Lightsaber duel
2. All out.

Sidiousis still superior to Anakin in saber combat, and vastly superior to Anakin in force abilities. He wins both.

Co-signed.

I disagree, Sidious wins the all-out battle, but Anakin is superior with a blade. Sidious got beaten by Mace and disarmed by Yoda - Anakin beat Dooku pretty badly. I don't see Sidious beating him with a saber.

Yeah...But Dooku had to fight Anakin AND Obi(Who beated Anakin at the end). So I don't think Anakin should be given all the credit...If it would be just him vs count, it would be much harder battle...
Have in mind, that force using exhausts a Jedi, so when Dooku rendered obi unconcious he just couldn't get the upper hand in that fight...No way...

also dooku wasn't trying to kill anakin so he wasn't fighting his best

I suppose, Kenobi did probably helLabyrinth of Evil (the part about Palpatine telling Dooku not to kill Anakin, not to try his hardest, whatever).

Bump.

Anakin may win the 1st one, but losing the 2nd one.

Anakin is better in sabers, and if this was him w/ the darkside after he turned, he could beat Sidious before it got into a force contest of throwing pods, which he would lose.

Originally posted by kiddo44
Anakin is better in sabers, and if this was him w/ the darkside after he turned, he could beat Sidious before it got into a force contest of throwing pods, which he would lose.
I doubt he could beat Siidous before it turned into a Force contest. We didn't see all the details from the Yoda vs. Sidious duel ( ) but from the script we know that Sidious was disarmed, yet, facing a lightsaber armed opponent with no saber himself, he was still able to push it into a Force duel. If Anakin/Vader began to win, he could easily just put his saber away and turn it into a Force duel, assuming the terrain was right (for escaping Anakin's blade so he could start using the Force).

Originally posted by darthsith19
I suppose, Kenobi did probably helLabyrinth of Evil (the part about Palpatine telling Dooku not to kill Anakin, not to try his hardest, whatever).

so? watch how dooku's fighting then watch how he's fightin in ep 2 and in any book. he's deffinatley too arrogant to be fighting his hardest

Originally posted by xxxpoppunker182
so? watch how dooku's fighting then watch how he's fightin in ep 2 and in any book. he's deffinatley too arrogant to be fighting his hardest
IF Dooku wasn't trying because he is arrogant, then why does it matter? It's still Anakin owning Dooku, Dooku's arrogance just brings down his overall power level then. But there's no reason Dooku wouldn't be trying his hardest against an opponent who is besting him. The novel says he's just no match for Anakin. And he fights just as good in ROTS as he does in AOTC.

Sidious is superior to anakin in saber combat i believe and anakin may beat him when he thinks clearly. However seeing that sidious is manipulative he can change anakins psychological state so that he wont think so clearly thus giving himself the upperhand

Originally posted by darthsith19
IF Dooku wasn't trying because he is arrogant, then why does it matter? It's still Anakin owning Dooku, Dooku's arrogance just brings down his overall power level then. But there's no reason Dooku wouldn't be trying his hardest against an opponent who is besting him. The novel says he's just no match for Anakin. And he fights just as good in ROTS as he does in AOTC.

his arrogance doesnt bring his power down it just makes him cocky like in ep2 when he thought he could take yoda so he ran. but i believe he thought he could manipulate anakin only he ended up pissing him off and then anakin beat him. if you watch the beginning of the fight dooku is holding both anakin and obi wan off just fine. if he can take both of them then knock one out he can take the other one.

but why does this matter? its anakin vs sidious. i'd say sidious cause he bested yoda and tooke out 3 masters in like 30 sec.

I think Sidious would win...Though I don't think his lightsaber skills are very high...Sure he beat 3 jedi masters easily...But i think it was more because he caught them surprised...The way he jumped at them...And they(exepct Windu) were very unorganised...It looked like they didn't knew what to do...

And if we take Sidious vs Yoda, or Dooku vs Yoda....
When it comes to lightsaberz, the only diference is that Yoda knew count's skills preaty much, because he trained him. Dooku's saber skills didn't change too drasticly since he joined the dark side...
But as for Sidious...His skills were entirely new to Yoda...The Jedi always looked on Palpatine as a mere chancelor...

That's my opinion anyway...
I just wanted to say here, that it's entirely different to fight someone you know, than someone you don't.

Actually, Yoda bested Sidious in saber combat. Mace, on the other hand, says that Anakin may be the most powerful Jedi ever (in ROTS - novel).

Most powerful doesn't mean much in this context...
I don't think >most powerful< has much to do with lightsaber combat...
It's more about potential...

I honestly think Anakin has a more then better chance of besting Sidious in pure saber combat, Anakin is arguably the #1 duelist up until NJO Luke. He is certainly as good if not slightly better then Mace and Yoda in saber combat if he's on his game, so he's got a very good chance of beating Sidious in saber combat.

In a full out fight though Anakin would get raped by Sidious. He isn't in the same world as Sidious when it comes to Force power.

Originally posted by Foodster
Most powerful doesn't mean much in this context...
I don't think >most powerful< has much to do with lightsaber combat...
It's more about potential...

i hope your joking cause that makes absolutely no sense.

and anomolly how can he be the best saber duelist when he LOST to obi-wan

Originally posted by xxxpoppunker182
and anomolly how can he be the best saber duelist when he LOST to obi-wan
Because he is an arrogant prick ass munch who's was conflicted and who was considerably disturbed at the time. Basically, he wasn't thinking straight. Which is why I said that an "on his game" Anakin is arguably they #1 duelist until NJO Luke. When he fought Obi-Wan he was far from on his game. An on his game Anakin would be like when he pwned Dooku also one of the best saber duelists to ever grace the SW universe. There are considerably complex factors that led to Anakin's defeat against Obi-Wan. Realistically though, Anakin should have mopped the floor with Kenobi. Just Anakin is basically a immature n00b and so he fluctuates as to how good he is. Plus Obi-wan has the advantage of knowing Anakin's dueling tactics better then anyone.

Perhaps DE Sidious is better than Anakin in saber.

Yes, perhaps. Both DE Luke and DE Sidious would have a good chance of beating Anakin in saber combat. I said NJO though as by that time Luke is the clear better, with little argument.

come on anakin isn't as good a saber duelist as mace windu or yoda

Dude, first of all, Anakin > Kenobi, Nick Gilalrd says in saber combat Anakin is a level 9 and Kenobi is a level 8. Kenobi got lucky in that fight by getting the high ground, and Anakin wasn't thinking clearly in that fight, either. Lucas says that if the fight had continued without Kenobi getting the high ground that Anakin would have won.

And I see DE Luke and Sidious being above Anakin in saber combat.


Then are you suggesting that the reasn that Mace thinkins Anakin > Yoda is because Anakin has greater Force Powers?

If u ask me, Anakin was never thinking as clear as in EP 1...

Originally posted by darthsith19
Dude, first of all, Anakin > Kenobi, Nick Gilalrd says in saber combat Anakin is a level 9 and Kenobi is a level 8. Kenobi got lucky in that fight by getting the high ground, and Anakin wasn't thinking clearly in that fight, either. Lucas says that if the fight had continued without Kenobi getting the high ground that Anakin would have won.

And I see DE Luke and Sidious being above Anakin in saber combat.


Then are you suggesting that the reasn that Mace thinkins Anakin > Yoda is because Anakin has greater Force Powers?

when it comes to the jedi talkin about other jedi they're modest. like mace windu says that shaak ti was better than him in LoE and he says that depa was better than he was too but niether of them were. so mace saying that anakin is better than yoda i don't belive.

and i think that mace was sayin that anakin was > yoda was because of what he could become.

Originally posted by xxxpoppunker182
come on anakin isn't as good a saber duelist as mace windu or yoda pure saber, w/ the darkside hes better than both of them.

Yeah, in pure saber contest, Anakin is on par with Mace and Yoda, if not better than them.

DE Sidious>Anakin in saber.

Originally posted by darthsith19
Dude, first of all, Anakin > Kenobi, Nick Gilalrd says in saber combat Anakin is a level 9 and Kenobi is a level 8. Kenobi got lucky in that fight by getting the high ground, and Anakin wasn't thinking clearly in that fight, either.Or, Kenobi outmaneuvered and humiliated Anakin because he is a much better tactician and isn't far behind in dueling skills. That pretty much makes him a better combatant.

Yeah, where?

I'm very curious as to where he said this in the first place.

Well,as good as Sidious is with a lightsaber,I think that he is not in Anakin's league.Anakin is supposed to be one of,if not the best, saber duelist of the PT,while Sidious focus more in the force.We hardly ever saw him im action with a lightsaber,those two he killed while fighting mace were weaklings compared with the likes of Mace,Anakin,Yoda and Sidious himself.Now don't get me wrong,I know that they were both Jedi Masters,but they weren't on Sids league.Period.But in the all-out fight I see Sidious frying Anakin with Force Lightning,throwing him around like a bag of potatoes and them crushing him with pods before Anakin can even blink.Anakin is no match for Sidious in the force,and he wouldn't even get close with his saber.P. S.In the Revenge Of The Sith videogame Anakin only kills Sidious in the alternate ending with a cheap shot-Sids wasn't prepared for an attack.

Originally posted by kiddo44
pure saber, w/ the darkside hes better than both of them.

yet he still lost to obi-wan

On the point of "Anakin isn't better than Yoda/Sidious because Obi-Wan beat him":

Winning =/= Better. For some reason people have difficulty getting past this concept. The only time winning automatically makes someone a better duelist (Or whatever they happen to be doing) is in a sponsored match (Government, sports, whatever) in which the fighters are restricted by rules and regulations, and even then only if they follow those rules and regulations.

In a real fight, you don't have to be the best to win. A stronger opponent can still get arrogant and make stupid mistakes (Anakin, Sephiroth, Cell), a weaker opponent can overtake a stronger opponent through "cheap tricks" or "cheating" (I don't think "cheating" exists in a fight to the death, where the only real objective is winning), etc, etc. There are dozens of factors that can allow someone to lose while still being superior to their opponent.

In this particular instance, Anakin was completely enraged. Not to be confused with what he pulled against Dooku. When he fought Dooku, he did what a Sith is supposed to do. When he fought Obi-Wan, he did what the Sith aren't supposed to do. Sith aren't supposed to let their rage control them, because it just makes them do stupid things (Making a jump over someone with an ignited lightsaber from a bad tactical position because an opponent basically said "Hah! I win!". Sith are supposed to gather that rage, control it, and focus it on a target. Anakin was highly unstable in various ways when dueling Obi-Wan, and as such went the path of the James Bond villain, and had a severe case of AIS (Arrogance Induced Stupidity).

That's not even including the part where he was dueling someone who was a master of an extremely defensive style that works particularly well against aggressive styles like Anakin's. Or the part where the man he was dueling had been training him for roughly ten to thirteen years at this point.

very good points. i agree he wasn't lvl headed at all fighting obi-wan but at the end of your post you said

That's not even including the part where he was dueling someone who was a master of an extremely defensive style that works particularly well against aggressive styles like Anakin's. Or the part where the man he was dueling had been training him for roughly ten to thirteen years at this point.

which helps reiterate that obi wan can beat him

I have to disagree with this one a certain level:

The Sith advocate using their hate to fuel their power and to crush the opposition. While Sith can be typically insidious in their plannings, in combat each uses rage to take the initiative. However, Lucas' entire point in making an issue over rage "controlling" the Sith is a poke at the idea itself- rage makes clear thinking impossible. Even Mace Windu, who walks the line (And no, he ain't Johnny Cash) knows he cannot give into rage in the slightest because it can blind him in combat.

Sith typically indulge in it. In this case, Anakin was simply giving himself into it and embracing the Dark Side, at the cost of his own humbleness and clearheadedness, both of which are Jedi traits. So Obi-Wan defeated Anakin less through sheer skill and more through a superior battle mentality. The Sith grow powerful through their rage, but they are blinded by it, and can never use that power edge to fully defeat a Jedi who abides by his own teachings.

Yeah, that's true. But the overall point still applies. Anakin is much more efficient when he controls that rage and focuses it on a target. From what I can tell, it's basically all of the perks without any of the drawbacks (The increase in speed, power, and so on, but without the loss of mentality and, in turn, efficiency).



Yes. It helps the argument that Obi-Wan can beat him. Not that anyone else can. Mace doesn't have those particular advantages. Yoda doesn't have those particular advantages. Sidious doesn't have those particular advantages. It doesn't help your point of "Obi-Wan defeated Anakin so Sidious can as well" because those advantages only apply to Obi-Wan. In terms of pure skill, Anakin is a class above Obi-Wan. Obi-Wan just has several distinct advantages because of his relationship with Anakin (Anakin tends to be a little more mentally/emotionally unstable when dealing with Obi-Wan, Obi-Wan is an extremely skilled master of a style that work's well against Anakins, and Obi-Wan has been personally training him for at least ten years).


When comparing Anakin to Sidious, Yoda, Mace, Revan, Exar Kun, etc, etc., the Obi-Wan fight doesn't hold as much weight because there were specific circumstances in that fight that probably wouldn't apply to a duel with the others (Much like the Luke/Vader fight, or the Ulic/Cay fight, in which it's likely that at least one party wasn't fighting at peak efficiency due to circumstance).

Originally posted by VinCon01
Yes. It helps the argument that Obi-Wan can beat him. Not that anyone else can. Mace doesn't have those particular advantages. Yoda doesn't have those particular advantages. Sidious doesn't have those particular advantages. It doesn't help your point of "Obi-Wan defeated Anakin so Sidious can as well" because those advantages only apply to Obi-Wan. In terms of pure skill, Anakin is a class above Obi-Wan. Obi-Wan just has several distinct advantages because of his relationship with Anakin (Anakin tends to be a little more mentally/emotionally unstable when dealing with Obi-Wan, Obi-Wan is an extremely skilled master of a style that work's well against Anakins, and Obi-Wan has been personally training him for at least ten years).


When comparing Anakin to Sidious, Yoda, Mace, Revan, Exar Kun, etc, etc., the Obi-Wan fight doesn't hold as much weight because there were specific circumstances in that fight that probably wouldn't apply to a duel with the others (Much like the Luke/Vader fight, or the Ulic/Cay fight, in which it's likely that at least one party wasn't fighting at peak efficiency due to circumstance).

point taken but mace is supposed to be the best in the order, mace could use his shatterpoinnt ability along with vapaad to beat anakin i dont see how you guys can't see this.

Originally posted by VinCon01
Yeah, that's true. But the overall point still applies. Anakin is much more efficient when he controls that rage and focuses it on a target. From what I can tell, it's basically all of the perks without any of the drawbacks (The increase in speed, power, and so on, but without the loss of mentality and, in turn, efficiency).

Can you please tell me where the idea comes from that Anakin didn't control that rage at that time and that he didn't focus it on Obi-Wan ? Right before the battle starts Anakin was pretty much accusing Obi-Wan of turning Padme against him. During the battle he doesn't look like somebody who did entirely lost his mind. He was clearly fighting rather efficiently instead of keep hacking on Obi-Wan's defences like a madman blinded by hatred.



I don't know why we even have to argue the level of skill here.

a) Yoda pretty much says that Obi-Wan is not even close to being good enough to deal with Sidious. Because of that he sends him out to deal with Anakin. Since Obi-Wan is powerful enough to deal with Anakin (demonstrated during their fight), Sidious logically must be more powerful if we can trust Yoda's judgement.

b) Sidious himself in "RoDV" thinks that Anakin, as he was in RotS, would have been utterly destroyed by Yoda. This might be arrogance on Sidious part, but I don't know why he should develop thoughts like that, when he was always talking and thinking about how great the force potential and lightsaber skills of Anakin were before he was injured in his duel with Obi-Wan.

c) Since actual force mastery is strongly influencing the lightsaber skill of an individual (if we can thrust Kas'ims comments there) how can Anakin, who wasn't able to overpower Obi-Wan, be compareable to Yoda in that department ? And I also doubt that his raw lightsaber mastery exceeded that of a guy who had almost 900 years to train with that weapon (Yoda), or the guy who invented the "deadliest form of lightsaber combat" when he was below Anakin's own age (Mace) which both had considerable problems with taking Sidious down in personal confrontation.

d) Lucas himself said that only Mace and Yoda were able to deal with Sidious at this point in time. I mentioned it multiple times before: I don't see Anakin on that list and to be honest - imho nothing that Anakin displayed so far is enough to put him on one level with Yoda or Sidious.



This is again assuming that Anakin wasn't doing the best he could against Obi-Wan. You might also take other fights. In the fight with Dooku, Anakin also didn't look to great when he - even together with Obi-Wan - wasn't able to deal with the Sith Lord to such an extend that Dooku was able to kick his ass through the place, while force choking Obi-Wan. Of course...Anakin entered "the zone" then, as it's commonly called here, but even then he was in need to utilize raw physical brutality and not duelling finesse or greater force abilities to deal with Dooku.

Sidious in his fight with Yoda did look much more impressive in the lightsaber and force power department than Anakin did look in the fights before. Of course this is a matter of interpretation. But I still don't see any reason why Anakin should be able to take Sidious out in direct confrontation, when almost everything we've seen of the two in RotS leads to the suggestion that Sidious would be able to take Anakin down - with superior force master, decent lightsaber skills (at the very least) and being, quite simply, the better tactician and manipulator who knows Anakin inside out.

Hey Nai, what was the quote in which Sidious said that Yoda would have destroyed Anakin..

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Hey Nai, what was the quote in which Sidious said that Yoda would have destroyed Anakin..
RoDV, pg. 123 --

Vader: I wasn't strong enough to defeat Obi-Wan.
Sidious: No you weren't. So just imagine what Yoda might have done to you.

I think that's fairly self-explanatory.


What you're not considering is that everyone you just listed are leagues above Obi-Wan. So Anakin's slight superiority over him doesn't bring him in any closer to these guys. And all that aside, as the above passage clearly shows - words from the mouth that praised his skill and power endlessly - he would've been no match for Yoda in the first place.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
So Obi-Wan defeated Anakin less through sheer skill and more through a superior battle mentality. The Sith grow powerful through their rage, but they are blinded by it, and can never use that power edge to fully defeat a Jedi who abides by his own teachings. That fight on Mustafar was a special one its not about Sith in general. Kenobi no matter how much better of battle mentality he had could never defeat Count Dooku, who was less than Anakin. Anakin lost that fight b/c of his lack of focus and his emotions of fighting Kenobi.


agree

Also another reason why Obiwan beat Anakin was because he trained Anakin and knew him very well.

Originally posted by kiddo44
That fight on Mustafar was a special one its not about Sith in general. Kenobi no matter how much better of battle mentality he had could never defeat Count Dooku, who was less than Anakin. Anakin lost that fight b/c of his lack of focus and his emotions of fighting Kenobi.Obi-Wan would never beat Count Dooku because the Sith would utterly manhandle him with the Force in a way that Anakin never could. That's it.

that anakin lost a duell doesnt mean he is weaker. he was confused about everything that happened. and they only way that obi wan could win was with giving ground, and in the end it was only his luck that made him win.

and u cant know what would happened in a fight whit anakin and sidious, cause anakin wasnt pro yet. and after al he is the chosen one, so if he would be ready he would kick everyones butt

in fact, i think that anakin and maybe windu, but never luke could have killed the emperor. anakin at least has the most talent to get the job done

Originally posted by skywalker12
in fact, i think that anakin and maybe windu, but never luke could have killed the emperor. anakin at least has the most talent to get the job done So do you mean that only Anakin or Mace can beat DE Sidious, and Luke can never beat Sidious?

Well...Sidious...of course.

Force contest- Sidious easily, the strongest Sith Lord ever, mops the floor with Anakin, who hasn't got control over his Force mastery and even if he did, at this point its not as good as Sidious, not even close.

Lightsaber duel- If this was a saber march with no talking allowed, Anakin would win comfortably at worst.

Dooku slipped aside from an overhand chop and sprang backward. "I sense great fear in you. You are consumed by it. Hero With No Fear, indeed. You're a fraud, Skywalker. You are nothing but a posturing child."

He pointed his lightsaber at the young Jedi like an accusing finger. "Aren't you a little old to be afraid of the dark?"

Skywalker leapt for him again, and this time Dooku met the boy's charge easily. They stood nearly toe-to-toe, blades flashing faster than the eye could see, but Skywalker had lost his edge: a simple taunt was all that had been required to shift the focus of his attention from winning the fight to controlling his own emotions. The angrier he got, the more afraid he became, and the fear fed his anger in turn; like the proverbial Corellian multipede, now that he had started thinking about what he was doing, he could no longer walk.

This is from ROTS novel and look what Dooku did to him, yes he(Anakin) regained latter and won.

Now imagine Sidious, who is much better then Dooku at this and unlike Dooku he knows all of Anakins secrets, all of his weaknesses, he knows him better then he knows himself. He can easily destroy Anakins control over his emotions, thinking...

I really don't see how Anakin could win in any regular fight, taunts aside. Sidious was able to abide Yoda on a small platform in RotS quite well. Seeing as the only people who could reasonably hold up to Sidious in a saber fight would include Yoda and Mace in deed (Anyone else is pure conjecture) I don't get how people think Anakin is amazing.

I bet it has a lot to do with:

a) Force potential. You know, like that one guy had in KotOR that was coming out of his ears. Before he got thrown into a reactor shaft by a space pirate.

b) He's a "LVL 9 JEDI FIGHTER", according to Nick Gillard, who has exactly nothing to do with SW canon at all. Nick Gillard does not write EU material, nor does he supercede GL's views in the characters lightsaber fighting capability. Considering that GL created these characters, his views are paramount when dealing with in-movie versus matches. GL said quite clearly that only Yoda and Mace could comfortably defeat Sidious on even grounds, and Anakin wasn't even mentioned.

And really, what is with the "lightsabers only" matches? Can you ever use lightsabers without drawing on the Force? Wouldn't that be like having a "lightsabers without focusing crystals" battle scenario? We should always include Force mastery in fights because quite frankly, it's impossible to divorce someone's capability when they're always using the Force.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
I really don't see how Anakin could win in any regular fight, taunts aside. Sidious was able to abide Yoda on a small platform in RotS quite well. Seeing as the only people who could reasonably hold up to Sidious in a saber fight would include Yoda and Mace in deed (Anyone else is pure conjecture) I don't get how people think Anakin is amazing.

I bet it has a lot to do with:

a) Force potential. You know, like that one guy had in KotOR that was coming out of his ears. Before he got thrown into a reactor shaft by a space pirate.

b) He's a "LVL 9 JEDI FIGHTER", according to Nick Gillard, who has exactly nothing to do with SW canon at all. Nick Gillard does not write EU material, nor does he supercede GL's views in the characters lightsaber fighting capability. Considering that GL created these characters, his views are paramount when dealing with in-movie versus matches. GL said quite clearly that only Yoda and Mace could comfortably defeat Sidious on even grounds, and Anakin wasn't even mentioned.

And really, what is with the "lightsabers only" matches? Can you ever use lightsabers without drawing on the Force? Wouldn't that be like having a "lightsabers without focusing crystals" battle scenario? We should always include Force mastery in fights because quite frankly, it's impossible to divorce someone's capability when they're always using the Force.

i agree completely. everyone seems to think that anakin is just amazing when he really isnt nearly as good as they say he is.

for example anakin in no way would be able to kill seasee kit and agen in about 30 to 40 seconds. he just isnt as good as sidious in lightsaber combat or with the force. i dont understand how people cant or refuse to see this

Anakin is amazing for the simple fact that he wtfpwned one of the greatest jedi in the 25,000 year old history. Dooku was no slouch.. He would be able to give Sidious a good lightsaber battle. However, he is not on Sidious' level in saber combat, nor force mastery.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Anakin is amazing for the simple fact that he wtfpwned one of the greatest jedi in the 25,000 year old history. Dooku was no slouch.. He would be able to give Sidious a good lightsaber battle. However, he is not on Sidious' level in saber combat, nor force mastery.

Where did you see him "wtfpwning" Dooku ?

Holy shit. I still can't believe that people are seriously ignorant enough to watch RotS and still come up with the notion that Anakin "destroyed" or "owned" or "demolished" Dooku.

Dooku completely dominated the fight. He completely tooled Anakin and Obi-Wan when they were fighting together. I mean...really...force choking Obi-Wan and, while doing so, flooring Anakin with a backward kick when Anakin was trying to attack him from behind ? Parrying an attack coming from both simultaneously with one hand ? How much more superiority can somebody show ?

And yes. Anakin defeated him. Again I may point out that Dooku was commanded by Sidious to take Obi-Wan out and get capture by Anakin. This is, despite of claims to the contrary, not overwritten by Lucas statement in the commentary. Sidious was testing Anakin there, yes. But he didn't want to test if Anakin would be able to defeat Dooku in actual confrontation because he knew how powerful Anakin was. Instead he wanted to see if Anakin would go so far to kill an already disarmed opponent. He wanted to know if Anakin was ready to put his personal emotions over the rules of the Jedi. And Anakin did so by killing Dooku.

So we have two factors in this particular fight:
a) Anakin utilizing the Dark Side to make him stronger
b) Dooku definetly holding back when dealing with Anakin alone

I've said this often enough but I'll say it once more. We know that Dooku is capable of using force lightning with one hand even in the middle of a fight. Why didn't he use force lightning against Anakin once he had dealed with Obi-Wan during their fencing action ? Because he couldn't ? Hardly. Because he was commanded not to hurt Anakin ? Probably yes.

So I still don't get what's so impressive about this fight. We saw that Anakin wasn't able to take Kenobi out. Fact. I don't know why we have to construct some nonsense like "Oh. Anakin in that fight was temporarily confused, you know..." when it's pretty obvious that the guy was simply overestimating his own abilities.

1. What I got was from the ROTS novel.
2. If you're going the "he let him beat him" route, save it. I believe Sidious told Dooku that if by some chance Anakin overpowered him, he'd step in and stop it, so Dooku was fighting for his life, accordig to the ROTS novel.

Yeah, you could make the argument for Dooku holding back...until other factors state Dooku stops holding back when he realizes the absolute danger he's in. We know full well Anakin>Dooku in ability and power.

That said, Palpatine would slaughter Anakin. OH, and Janus? Lucas said nothing about 'cleanly defeating' on even ground. He said Yoda and Mace were the only two people who could compete with Palpatine, that's it.

i dont agree with this but it is a possibility since you guys want to go off the "at first he wasnt trying to kill anakin but then he decided to" ,ok so

dooku starts fighting his hardest after getting into a position that he cant recover from, from when he was just testing anakin.

if that doesnt make sense this will. if you have dooku fighting his hardest against anakin fighting his hardest fro,m the very beginning dooku would beat anakin for the reasons that bobarad said

Anakin is actually underestimated. Thier was a old thread were people were saying Depa Billaba would pwn Anakin and tool him. He's Top 3 in the Jedi order . Would have been the youngest master ever. His power would have soon passe everyones in the order. Anakin is sold short alot. Yes Sidious would beat him but it would not be a curbstomp. He would be a decent fight at worst.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
1. What I got was from the ROTS novel.


Which descripes an enterily different fighting scene meaning that it's totally useless.



No. I'm pretty sure that Dooku didn't want to lose his hands there on the spot. And what novel did you read ? The plan that Sidious gave to Dooku was that Dooku should kill Obi-Wan and then let Anakin capture him. Sidious didn't want to step in and stop it, he said he would grant Dooku amnesty once the Count was captured and brought before the Supreme Court. That's what he told Dooku. So Dooku wasn't fighting for his life in that situation. He thought that his life wasn't in danger since he thought Anakin would act according to the Jedi Code (capture him instead of killing him).

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Yeah, you could make the argument for Dooku holding back...until other factors state Dooku stops holding back when he realizes the absolute danger he's in. We know full well Anakin>Dooku in ability and power.

Oh this is great, Lightsnake. You're again referring to the RotS novel which descripes an entirely different scenario. Dooku in the novel decides to stop holding back when Obi-Wan and Anakin are coming close to kill or badly injure him multiple times. Where did that happen in the movie ? In fact, Dooku looked much better against Kenobi and Anakin combined, than against Anakin alone.
And we know full well that Anakin > Dooku in ability in power ? Wow. Where ? Where did demonstrate Anakin force mastery on the level of Count Dooku ? When he was completely inable to force push Obi-Wan ? The guy Dooku completely manhandled using the force ? Impressive.
Saber ability ? Can you remind me where Anakin managed to survive duels with Mace Windu, Yoda or Jedi like Tholme + Sora Bulq / Obi-Wan + Anakin teaming up against him ? I must have missed that.



Finally something I can agree with.

Except for the fact that Anakin "in the zone" Skywalker became superior to Dooku in saber combat once he touched the dark side. He was better, stronger, faster. Should I give you a description of the fight from the novel, which basically describes what Dooku is thinking when Anakin is attacking him?

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Except for the fact that Anakin "in the zone" Skywalker became superior to Dooku in saber combat once he touched the dark side. He was better, stronger, faster. Should I give you a description of the fight from the novel, which basically describes what Dooku is thinking when Anakin is attacking him?

Oh. You mean that description which has Dooku thinking his wrist will soon brake because of Anakin's brutal Djem So onslaught, when the movie shows him easily parrying Anakin's swings one-handed ?

Does that kick-ass fighting description also offer an explanation while Count "I used to fry people with force lightning while dueling them" Dooku didn't just f*ck up Anakin with his superior force mastery ? Does it offer an explanation why he was even taunting Anakin to use the Dark Side (his "full power" instead of dealing with an - without the Dark Side - inferior opponent ? Does it answer the question why Dooku, instead of kicking Anakin around while force choking Obi-Wan, didn't simply move his lightsaber backwards in a stabbing motion right into Anakin who, obviously, didn't expect any defense from the Sith Lord ? Wait...I actually did read that novel and it doesn't answer the questions.

Because it doesn't make any sense, unless you want to tell me that Anakin in his "zone" suddenly gains additional power which alone trumps that of Kenobi because, as we saw, even together they weren't able to overpower Dooku. Which wouldn't make sense because Anakin should have totally owned Kenobi if that was the case.

Sidious said Anakin "was far younger and more powerful". thier is your explanation.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Which descripes an enterily different fighting scene meaning that it's totally useless.
I'm sorry, Nai. I thought we were referencing Star Wars canon. It totally slipped my mind that when we debate, it immediately takes upon the semblance of what you do and don't decide to be valid, it won't happen again.
Now, regarding your point, even if I referred to the novelization at the time, there's still the visual dictionary to consider-what's the excuse there, I have to wonder?



Which is false as when Dooku provokes Anakin into his anger, Dooku realizes Anakin is far too powerful for him (ROTS visual dictionary being the source for that since we've decided the novelization can't be used here)




I suppose we can also neglect that as pointed out above, I'm not referencing the ROTS novelization

Exceptional how we compare one single instance as some sort of proof Anakin ranks below Dooku in power and ability, when about three sources state that Anakin is more powerful than Dooku.
I'll, in fact, use a direct quote after Dooku has provoked Anakin: "Dooku fought for his life."
Now, a question or two: At which point did Dooku collapse a building?
Was Dooku hallucinating when he realizes Anakin is more powerful than he is? Is Mace incorrect when he says Anakin is one of the most powerful Jedi alive?

Oh, and some of Anakin's more impressive feats with the force: Forcing a homicidal, insane Gen'Dai to do what he wants.
Using the force, he hurls an escape pod into the sun.
I'm sure there are more but at th moment, I lack the inclination to start looking through my books


You must've missed where Anakin has fought precisely none of them and killed the man who did survive said duels. Though, I suppose we can also point out Anakin defeating Durge with a combination of saber and force abilities, Cin Drallig with several other opponents simultaneously...and made Dooku realize to quote the visual dictionary that "Anakin Skywalker is more powerful than he had imagined."

Whoops.

And notice Anakin wasn't fighting at his best when Obi-wan and he were fighting in conjunction. When Dooku provokes him, it's a different story.

And in the very movie Palpatine says Anakin is "Younger and more powerful."

Or is this just another reference to 'political power' that seems to saturate Star Wars lore when it comes to characters we don't want to admit are better than we think they are?

Originally posted by Janus Marius


b) He's a "LVL 9 JEDI FIGHTER", according to Nick Gillard, who has exactly nothing to do with SW canon at all. Nick Gillard does not write EU material, nor does he supercede GL's views in the characters lightsaber fighting capability. Considering that GL created these characters, his views are paramount when dealing with in-movie versus matches. GL said quite clearly that only Yoda and Mace could comfortably defeat Sidious on even grounds, and Anakin wasn't even mentioned.

This is all completly wrong. Geroge Lucas said flat out in Rolling Stone in 2005, Anakin of ROTS was AS strong as Sidious in ROTS. I can give you the quote.

And the other quote from Lucas your talking about, "You have to be Yoda and Mace to hang with Sidious, Anakin could have beat him."


And Nic Gillard is not Cannon, WTF?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Or is this just another reference to 'political power' that seems to saturate Star Wars lore when it comes to characters we don't want to admit are better than we think they are?

No.

That applies only to Sidious. No one feels the need to reference political power with Anakin. They just hate him.

Originally posted by kiddo44
This is all completly wrong. Geroge Lucas said flat out in Rolling Stone in 2005, Anakin of ROTS was AS strong as Sidious in ROTS. I can give you the quote.

And the other quote from Lucas your talking about, "You have to be Yoda and Mace to hang with Sidious, Anakin could have beat him."


And Nic Gillard is not Cannon, WTF?


WTF are you talking about? Why would you go and bullshit about two quotes that we are ALL very familiar with.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
WTF are you talking about? Why would you go and bullshit about two quotes that we are ALL very familiar with.
WTF are you talking about?? Did you even read what he said?

Originally posted by kiddo44
This is all completly wrong. Geroge Lucas said flat out in Rolling Stone in 2005, Anakin of ROTS was AS strong as Sidious in ROTS. I can give you the quote.Please do so.

No, he didn't. Don't make stuff up and expect people to take you seriously.

No, Nick Gillard's word has no canonical value whatsoever. He choreographs the fights, he doesn't decide who's better than who.

Originally posted by kiddo44
This is all completly wrong. Geroge Lucas said flat out in Rolling Stone in 2005, Anakin of ROTS was AS strong as Sidious in ROTS. I can give you the quote.

Strong as palpatine? In what sense? I read that quote. It occurs to me that he could be referring to force potential which is precisely what anakin lost after getting burned

Lucas himself already stated to contend with sidious you have to be on the level as mace or yoda and IF lucas was referring to anakins strength in the force then he would be contradicting himself

Anakin/Vader never looks anywhere near as strong as Sidious at any time.

He also manages to lose 5 limbs in the movies.

Sidious would win in less than 10 seconds.

I hope your not nebaris

I really don't understand the problem here. Sidious is testing Anakin using DOoku, which is why Dooku is goading Anakin to use the dark side. When Anakin starts using the dark side, Dooku is fighting for his life. And all of this without the canon argument. Everytime it seems that something is not canon or canon can be interpreted in many ways, etc. Yes, Anakin becomes superior to Dooku in lightsaber combat. I'd like to know why that's so hard to believe, especially after Anakin's powers DID double within 2-3 years.

Some people here seem to be basing this on the conclusion that Darth Sidious was going to sacrifice Count Dooku anyway for Anakin, but that necessarily isn't so. That was what the test was there for: to test Anakin's own level of power and whether or not he could be turned.

I mean, in Rise of Darth Vader, Sidious makes it bluntly clear to Anakin when he tells him this: "If Tyranus had been stronger in the dark side, you would be dead, and he would be at my right hand."

Palpatine just doesn't care about how strong Anakin will be. It's also how strong Anakin happened to be at the time.

I'm also rather uncertain why Palpatine would want to sacrifice a perfectly competent and powerful Apprentice for Anakin if Anakin wasn't already Tyranus's better

Originally posted by Lightsnake
I'm also rather uncertain why Palpatine would want to sacrifice a perfectly competent and powerful Apprentice for Anakin if Anakin wasn't already Tyranus's better

Indeed. Especially when one takes into account that Tyranus had experience and knowledge (and not just pertaining to the Force) that Anakin didn't, and - unlike Anakin - Tyranus was completely within Sidious's thrall and was terrified of him.

Originally posted by Faunus
Please do so.


"And when he finds out Luke is his son, his first impulse is to figure out a way of getting him to join him to kill the Emperor. That's what Siths do! He tries it with anybody he thinks might be more powerful, which is what the Emperor was looking for in the first place: somebody who would be more powerful than he was and could help him rule the universe. But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting off his arms and legs and burning him up.From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor" -- George Lucas, Rolling Stone 2005


Do you know what from then on means Janus?

No thats excatly his quote, its in the Making of ROTS book, when Lucas is talking about the Sidious/Mace fight go look it up.


Gillard is of the movies, of course its canon, show me something where it says specifically that Gillard is not canon.

Originally posted by kiddo44
"And when he finds out Luke is his son, his first impulse is to figure out a way of getting him to join him to kill the Emperor. That's what Siths do! He tries it with anybody he thinks might be more powerful, which is what the Emperor was looking for in the first place: somebody who would be more powerful than he was and could help him rule the universe. But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting off his arms and legs and burning him up.From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor" -- George Lucas, Rolling Stone 2005


Do you know what from then on means Janus?

No thats excatly his quote, its in the Making of ROTS book, when Lucas is talking about the Sidious/Mace fight go look it up.


Gillard is of the movies, of course its canon, show me something where it says specifically that Gillard is not canon.

Except the quote in question(not really because you're an idiot) is talking about Luke and has absolutely NOTHING to do with what you mentioned initially.

Originally posted by kiddo44
"And when he finds out Luke is his son, his first impulse is to figure out a way of getting him to join him to kill the Emperor. That's what Siths do! He tries it with anybody he thinks might be more powerful, which is what the Emperor was looking for in the first place: somebody who would be more powerful than he was and could help him rule the universe. But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting off his arms and legs and burning him up.From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor" -- George Lucas, Rolling Stone 2005
"somebody who would be more powerful than he was"

Do you know what "would be" means -insertrandomname-?

I'm Faunus. If you look at who and what you're replying to you might make a little more sense. Maybe.

For one, I've actually read said passage, so I know for a fact that I'm right, and that you're deliberately twisting information to give some strength to your argument. Second, the burden of proof is on you. You brought up the source, I disputed it, and now the onus is on you to back your original claim. If you can't, drop it and concede.

WTF are you talking about? Just because he's involved in the movie doesn't mean his word has any weight. Following your logic, Ewan McGregor could say that Obi-Wan is the best duelist in the saga and it'd be "canon," because he's "of the movies."

Again burden of proof. And I never don't have to prove a negative. You brought the "source" up, so cut the crap and try to validate it, or concede the point.

"But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting off his arms and legs and burning him up. From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor."

As much as I hate to argue this point, such is my loyalty to canon. This quote seems to indicate that Anakin is as strong as the Emperor, his equal. Not weaker. Not stronger. The Emperor wanted someone who could be stronger than he was.

There's a difference between being someone's equal and someone's superior.

That said, if this is the case, if he is as strong as Palpatine, then he is most decidedly Dooku's absolute superior.

People misunderstand that quote a lot. Him being as strong as the emperor doesn't mean that he could take him or even stalemate him at his peak(ROTS). It means that he has the raw abilities and potential to take be equal to Sidious, when he masters the force and saber combat, and at his peak, he would be twice as powerful as Sidious. It in NO way means he's actually equal to Sidious.

Originally posted by Gideon
As much as I hate to argue this point, such is my loyalty to canon. This quote seems to indicate that Anakin is as strong as the Emperor, his equal. Not weaker. Not stronger. The Emperor wanted someone who could be stronger than he was.

There's a difference between being someone's equal and someone's superior.

That said, if this is the case, if he is as strong as Palpatine, then he is most decidedly Dooku's absolute superior. Anakin's raw power at this point probably is on the level of Yoda or Sidious, just as Mace pointed out. However - and I can't stress this enough - he lacks any degree of control over it, and so he can't utilize it as well as he might have been able to. Which makes it irrelevant. If he really is supposed to be as strong as the Emperor or Dooku in terms of the Force he would have utterly annihilated Obi-Wan in their Force contest, since we know for a fact that Obi-Wan is far below either of them in that department. So I still maintain that while Anakin could be more powerful than Dooku, we never see him get to that level.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Except the quote in question(not really because you're an idiot) is talking about Luke and has absolutely NOTHING to do with what you mentioned initially.




Uh, no, thats not what it says, how do you know that was Lucas meant? You don't he didn't say all that. If you can't read English thats not my problem, the quote is pretty clear.

If Anakin's raw power is up there with Sidious', why did he draw with Obi-wan in a force push contest?

Originally posted by Faunus
Anakin's raw power at this point probably is on the level of Yoda or Sidious, just as Mace pointed out. However - and I can't stress this enough - he lacks any degree of control over it, and so he can't utilize it as well as he might have been able to. Which makes it irrelevant. If he really is supposed to be as strong as the Emperor or Dooku in terms of the Force he would have utterly annihilated Obi-Wan in their Force contest, since we know for a fact that Obi-Wan is far below either of them in that department. So I still maintain that while Anakin could be more powerful than Dooku, we never see him get to that level.

He is, however, mentioned by several people, and sources as more powerful than Dooku.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
He is, however, mentioned by several people, and sources as more powerful than Dooku. Yet he can't control what power he has, so it's inconsequential. And that's been my point all along.

I agree with Faunus. It is possible that his raw abilities at this point are on par with Sidious, but he has no control/mastery over the force, which puts him firmly under Sidious.

Originally posted by Faunus
Yet he can't control what power he has, so it's inconsequential. And that's been my point all along.

It did apparently matter quite a bit in the case of Dooku and during his purge of the Jedi Temple, however.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Considering the novelizations haven't been used as a source here, Janus, I don't really see your point here.

The visual dictionary is equally flawed. It was also released the same time the movie was so the information displayed in it might be correct to a certain extend, yet it's based on the same script version like the novel which is completely different from what the movie shows.



See above. And there's absolutely zero contradictions to the movie ? You mean like the Visual Dictionary lists Anakin and Obi-Wan to have used different forms when they use their original styles in the movie ? I spot a contradiction there. And it was new to me that the visual dictionary now has to say anything on characters thoughts. Unless they are visible in the movie nowadays.



If they actually make sense, Lightsnake. That Dooku thinks he can't hold back any longer when Obi-Wan and Anakin almost kill him multiple times seems to be logical. Thinking the same thing while handing Obi-Wan and Anakin their asses doesn't make sense.

And stop coming up with that freaking lies. Everything in the novels not coming from Lucas himself is C-Canon.



Once more, Lightsnake.
They aren't G-Canon. If you can't proof that something is coming from Lucas directly than it's C-Canon even if it's in the novel. End of story. And if something doesn't appear on screen it - simple as that - didn't happen.



Yes...if he reached his potential, with did never happen. RotS Anakin = Obi-Wan Kenobi in terms of force mastery which is far below Dooku.



Yes. Because Anakin was more powerful when it came to potential, which Sidious did know, considering he called him more powerful than Yoda and himself. However. It's a simply fact that Anakin wasn't as powerful as Dooku because otherwise he would have curbstomped Kenobi on Mustafar during their little force contest. Which - surprise, suprise - didn't happen.



Oh yes. It's substantiated in a few other spots. The factual evidence of Anakin's force mastery can be seen right on screen when he tries to force push Obi-Wan Kenobi. His lightsaber mastery can be seen a little bit later, when he takes a nice lava bath because being a stupid idiot who's totally overestimating his abilities. No wait. That actually doesn't seem to put him above Dooku.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
It did apparently matter quite a bit in the case of Dooku and during his purge of the Jedi Temple, however.

Well...had he ever challenged Dooku in a force duel we would know how much it did matter in the case of Dooku.

And during the purge of the Jedi Temple. Yes. His force mastery was helping him there. Let's just ignore the Legion (roughly 10,000) of Clone Troopers that entered the temple with him.

Yeah, let's ignore Anakin killed numerous Jedi without assistance, including simultaneously force choking Bene to death while butchering Cin Drallig....We can ignore that completely.

Considering several sources state Dooku both fights for his life at the end and realizes Anakin is more powerful than he is, what point are you trying to make exactly?

Originally posted by Borbarad
The visual dictionary is equally flawed. It was also released the same time the movie was so the information displayed in it might be correct to a certain extend, yet it's based on the same script version like the novel which is completely different from what the movie shows.
It's flawd. OH, why's this? IT contradicts your opinion? Considering there aren't points where the visual dictionary contradicts the movie, your point is incredibly flawed.
Especially considering it remains a part of SW canon that, shockingly, agree with one another...in fact, Nai, the only thing that doesn't agree with you.




Oh, yes. What portion of this would it be? Oh, right, the Lucas approved portion that states they hold back to draw Dooku into a false sense of security?
Now, then, where in the movies do Obi-wan and Anakin state 'We're using Forms V and III!"
Right. what was the point you're making here?
Oh, and it's great the visual dictionary does indeed have things to say on characters' motivations and thoughts, especially considering it's putting down information that should be obvious visually.




Yes, and if you bother to read the novelization, Dooku nearly dies because he's taking them too lightly, gets serious, regains control and then leads Anakin on a merry dance, gets overconfident and then realizes "Hey, maybe I shouldn't have provoked this kid, he's way stronger than I thought!"
The latter portion of that? Happens right in the films. The movie shows Anakin defeating him when provoked, the ROTS novelization has Dooku's own thoughts-which according to Chee, etc, etc- the visual dictionary, chronology, Visual Guide....

Again: maybe you ought to reevaluate your opinion just a bit when everything but you says you're wrong on this subject

And when that came under any sort of scrutiny in this debate until you mentioned it now?


Tell it to Chee, not me.
Next point, please.



Based on one single force push? That still sends Obi-wan flying back harder? Dooku himself realizes that 'Anakin is more powerful than he had imagined?'
Palpatine comments in the movie Anakin>Dooku?
Anything else?



Ah, right. Palpatine must be referring to '[potential'...not 'power' as in 'power' when we just saw Anakin defeat Dooku when Dooku taunted him about not 'using his anger and hate' and in a similar state as when he defeats Dooku, Anakin simultaneously defeats Cin Drallig and his students.
Different fights, different environments, different circumstance.
The movie, AKA, G-canon says clearly Anakin is more powerful than Dooku. Where in the world do you pull 'potential' from? Why do you ignore in RODV that Palpatine tells Anakin if Dooku had been more powerful, he'd have ended up walking over Anakin's corpse to sit at Palpatine's right hand?

anything that really backs up your opinion, Nai? Anything that even makes a dent in anything official?



Who loses his hands and head for being an overconfident idiot against Anakin? Who also kills Cin Drallig while distracted by using the Force on someone else, while simultaneously fighting him with only one hand? Who also slaughters a Jedi Master skilled enough to slow the entire Clone Advance by himself=as seen in Dark Nest's replays from the past?

But, hey, why even bother taking this into consideration? I don't recall many hints of the idea that Dooku was supposed to throw the fight in the movie.....hey, that idea originates in what you term C-canon, after all..

If you want to continue this, quit the double-standards

Nai, your A>B>C argument doesn't work. I forgot what the source was, but something stated that Anakin and Obiwan weren't a good team in saber combat because Anakin always thought OBiwan was holding him back and got in the way. Secondly, I don't know why force powers are an issue here, as Dooku is clearly superior to Anakin in this field. However, Anakin IS superior to Dooku in saber combat, as shown when he didn't have Obiwan in his way and didn't have to hold back. I AM surprised that you're throwing in the Obiwan vs. Anakin fight knowing full well that the ONLY reason Obiwan won was because he knew every move Anakin was going to make forwards and backwards because, well, he taught him everything.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
It did apparently matter quite a bit in the case of Dooku and during his purge of the Jedi Temple, however.Neither of which required a demonstration of his power or mastery in the Force. Dooku? After the Count humiliated Obi-Wan in an impressive display of his power and mastery - which is what I'm going for - Anakin just pushed him back with his lightsaber and took off his hands with a single slick move. Demonstration of superior Force ability? None. For the second example; well, this is lame. I believe that Palpatine said himself in RoDV that the clones alone could have managed to overtake the Jedi Temple, and that Anakin was only included to prove his commitment to the Dark side. Now, the few Jedi we know he killed were four years olds, preteens, and an old instructor. Whoa, hardcore! And how did he kill them? As far as we know, with the lightsaber. Demonstration of superior Force ability? Surprise, surprise - none.

Whoa whoa Faunus, he DID kill a few jedi with impressive abilities(if I remember correctly), but that in no way means he CURRENTLY has the force mastery which is superior to Dooku. He has the ABILITY to wtfpwn Dooku in force abilities ONCE he learned to master/control the force. You've seen him kill jedi and others with the force which shows that he has the abilities, but not the control. At his peak in ROTS, he is FIRMLY inferior to Dooku in force abilities, but NOT saber combat.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Whoa whoa Faunus, he DID kill a few jedi with impressive abilities(if I remember correctly), but that in no way means he CURRENTLY has the force mastery which is superior to Dooku. He has the ABILITY to wtfpwn Dooku in force abilities ONCE he learned to master/control the force. You've seen him kill jedi and others with the force which shows that he has the abilities, but not the control. At his peak in ROTS, he is FIRMLY inferior to Dooku in force abilities, but NOT saber combat.

when does he reach his peak in rots? if its after the massacre at the temple well then that isnt anakin anymore and this thread is for anakin vs sidious

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Whoa whoa Faunus, he DID kill a few jedi with impressive abilities(if I remember correctly),Like who? Drallig? Serra? In regards to the first, we never saw the entire fight. We witnessed a second-long clip of him choking a girl in one hand while trading two blows with Cin Drallig. That's it. As for Serra; the only source that actually verifies her existence is the RotS videogame, which is horribly contradictory to the movie. But assuming that particular duel occurred, it still doesn't prove anything about his Force abilities.

If he is indeed superior to Dooku in swordsmanship it's by a very small margin. Overpowering someone with physical strength does not constitute superior skill. And if beating him alone means he's better, then we always have the Obi-Wan case. But I don't want to get into this now.

The only thing I'm disputing is the claim that Anakin has superior Force abilities when compared to the likes of Dooku or Sidious.

Originally posted by Faunus
Neither of which required a demonstration of his power or mastery in the Force. Dooku? After the Count humiliated Obi-Wan in an impressive display of his power and mastery - which is what I'm going for - Anakin just pushed him back with his lightsaber and took off his hands with a single slick move. Demonstration of superior Force ability? None. For the second example; well, this is lame. I believe that Palpatine said himself in RoDV that the clones alone could have managed to overtake the Jedi Temple, and that Anakin was only included to prove his commitment to the Dark side. Now, the few Jedi we know he killed were four years olds, preteens, and an old instructor. Whoa, hardcore! And how did he kill them? As far as we know, with the lightsaber. Demonstration of superior Force ability? Surprise, surprise - none.
'Old Instructor?' Faunus, there's no need to downplay a considerable feat. Cin Drallig was widely acknowledged as an exceptional fighter and by that logic, Count Dooku is just an 'old aristocrat.' Anakin's confirmed kills included Master Jurokk, Cin himself, Jocasta Nu- who was killed by a combination of force and Saber..

On the matter of Dooku, it is significant Palpatine says Anakin is younger and more powerful than Dooku, that the Visual Guide comments Dooku realizes 'too late' that anakin is more powerful than he'd imagined and in RODV Palpatine also comments if Dooku were more powerful, it'd have been Anakin who died.

Sure, a huge legion of clones would've taken the Temple. Anakin's very notable achievement during the raid with Cin-which we do know the specifics of due to 'Order 66: Destroy all Jedi', as well as Serra Keto and Jocasta Nu, confirmed by Leland Chee here:
http://forums.starwars.com/thread.jspa?threadID=152583&start=945

In regards to strict force ability, we also have Anakin able to use the force to control Durge's mind-and Durge had in earlier comics proved almost immune to such things- as well as using the force to send Durge's escape pod into a sun....that right there does seem a nice display of ability

To be fair though Lightsnake, nothing even suggests that Anakin is Dooku's superior in the force, much less even on his level. He definitely gets there and surpasses Dooku after 20 years of training under Palpatine but as of ROTS? No way. Saber skills, yes.. And yes Faunus, even by a small margin he IS better than him. You are downplaying his ability by stating that he "overpowered" Dooku, when that's a testament to his skill. That's like saying Mace ISNT superior to Sidious in saber combat just because he "overpowered" him.

First, READ THESE.





That's four times I've stated that I'm not arguing his dueling ability, his potential or his libido. So please, unless I've asked for verification of a source, don't bring up these topics in your replies. (Directed at anyone who might reply, btw)

Originally posted by Lightsnake
'Old Instructor?' Faunus, there's no need to downplay a considerable feat. Cin Drallig was widely acknowledged as an exceptional fighter and by that logic, Count Dooku is just an 'old aristocrat.'A considerable feat which we have next to zero details about. And Count Dooku is an old aristocrat. But he also happens to be Mr. Lee, and a total badass. Nick Gillard is a raving fanboy.

Well, going by the novel and videogame. . . meh, I'll go along. Jurokk, being the gatekeeper, got stabbed in the face without so much as grabbing his lightsaber. So, Anakin gets no credit for that whatsoever. And Jocasta Nu? The librarian who probably hasn't seen combat since before TPM? Yeah, right. I fail to see how this compares with Dooku's considerable list of accomplishments that are actually related to his skill in the Force; in case you hadn't noticed, none of your examples show any remarkable skill on his part whatsoever.

Again, I've already stated that I believe Anakin to have more power available to him than Dooku. However, it's very clear that he does not come close to having the considerable degree of control and mastery that the Count displays. Hell, Obi-Wan has greater mastery over the Force than Anakin, and he managed to get his ass stomped by Dooku's Force prowess.

Okay, so he kills a librarian before she can respond and he out fights someone else. Again, no bearing on his Force power whatsoever. Regarding the O66 article, care to link it or post passages?

Which is all I'm actually trying to debate here, as I've made very clear numerous times already. . .

Where is this? I remember him tossing mines at Durge to cripple him, allowing him to fall into an escape pod, and then launch the thing and nudge into a path that would lead to the sun - but I don't remember the "mind control" part. And really, you act as if knocking an object into a certain path in zero gravity is a considerable feat.

No, I'm not trying to downplay him at all. I even stated that he had one really good move on Dooku when he severed his hands, at that was through skill. But the part that everyone seems to hail as proof for his undeniable superiority is when he drives him back. In the novel, this is "zoMg anikin nox litesbr in2 shulde w/ strngth?!!" In the movie, it's represented in a much better fashion. And honestly, I don't see Anakin beating Dooku in a serious confrontation - the Count has dueling skills that at least rival those of Anakin, but more importantly he has vastly superior Force prowess to call on. And if he's not high on martini-inspired arrogance like he was in RotS, he could very likely win.

Now, I'm done with saber-related stuff. It hurts my brain.

Well, the force superiority should be obvious, it's the dueling discrepancies that get people arguing.

We have quite a bit more other than that on Cin besides Nick...moreover, we have more than a bit on the fight with Cin. In fact, we do have all the details.


You mean stabbing him before he could get his lightsaber?

A former council member described as a skilled master, ready to fight to save the younglings? Come on, now...

He lifts Jocasta up in the air with the Force, immobilizing her completely and runs her through. I think the Force plays a BIT of a part....and not to mention the Durge fight..

Obi-wan was unable to so much as budge Durge with the Force-in fact, very few Jedi ever could. Anakin is able to control Durge with the Force, throw Durge across the room with the Force and using the Force, directs a pod into the sun.
Does he have the same control Dooku does? No. I fail to see how this'll matter if Anakin unleashes it fully on one person.

For starters, Nu is an ex-council member and described as a skilled Jedi, with a reason to give her all-saving children.
Passages, this from mostly memory:


I consider forcing a large object off a course into a sun as certainly pretty impressive....in the comic, we see Anakin, concentrating, hands outstretched as he diverts the pod....also, Durge is NOT put out of commission by the mines...it melts his voicebox and blows off his helmet, but Anakin ends up having to fight him on a very physical scale and forces him in the pod with the force...Obsession #3 for reference.

The thing is, at the end, that was a serious confrontation. According to the New Essential Chronology and Visual Guide, Dooku at the end of the fight once Anakin goes overboard, feels his real power and is forced to fight for his life.
If Anakin goes out on Dooku like that, Dooku will lose more often than not.

The fact is, Anakin's saber style focuses on power and Anakin used that to defeat Dooku's Makashi. Fact is, that's using your advantage to overcome an opponent's disadvantage and that made Anakin better in that instance...

While Anakin lacks Dooku's fine control over his power, he's still got it in abundance and directed fully upon Dooku, the result could be very bad for the Count. You also can't remove the arrogance from Dooku so easily, given Dooku's very nature.

No one is suggesting that Anakin > Dooku in Force prowess as of Revenge of the Sith, let alone the Emperor. At most, we've said that Lucas implied in that one interview that Anakin's strength was equal to Palpatine's as of RotS; if he's equal to Palpatine, he's better than Dooku (and by quite a bit), and there's no disputing it.

But that's a big if.

The only thing I'll argue is lightsaber prowess.


Edit: By the way, Lightsnake is correct. The script, the novelization, the Visual Guide, and the New Essential Chronology state that Anakin's victory over Dooku was a legitimate one. He simply became a force that Dooku just literally could not stop at that point.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
We have quite a bit more other than that on Cin besides Nick...moreover, we have more than a bit on the fight with Cin. In fact, we do have all the details.Would you like to provide some?

The guy wasn't expecting a fight, as was evidenced by his actually greeting Anakin. He just opened the gate, and Anakin stabbed him. Impressive.

And the fact that she - the one who hasn't seen combat in 13+ years - is probably one of the better Jedi in the Temple at the time of the Purge speaks for the complete lack of resistance faced by Anakin and the clones.

I've played the game, LS. He just picks her up and pulls her onto his saber.

I don't remember any Jedi ever trying. He's had things thrown at him, but that's it.

The first two of which you have yet to provide evidence for, and third being of little importance. It's zero gravity, LS, and not that big of an escape pod.

Oh, you mean like he did on Obi-Wan.

The escape pod isn't that big, and again, it's not like there's any, you know, gravity affecting the thing. Unlike Yoda, who deflected a missile falling at thousands of miles per hour. In atmosphere. After dueling Dooku. That is impressive.

So he Force pushes a non-Force sensitive? Damn. I guess Dooku taking out Sora Bulq - you know, the Vaapad co-creator - with his lightning and immediately dropping a ceiling on Thome's head counts for nothing.

Unless Dooku just decides to do what he did to Obi-Wan. . .

Then I suppose Obi-Wan is better in his duel with Anakin because of the exact same reasons. So if this logic implies that Anakin is better than Dooku, it makes Obi-Wan better than Anakin.

I seem to clearly remember him doing just that to Obi-Wan, and still getting put on his ass. The same Obi-Wan who got tossed around like a ragdoll and couldn't do anything about it. No, Count Dooku can actually manage to successfully direct all of his considerable power at his opponents. Anakin, obviously, can't.

Fantastic, Faunus. You really beat me to the punch. Well said.

I will say that Cin is said to be a bit of a badass.

Meh. I hate Gillard with a burning passion. Ray Park all the way!

I don't see the argument. As of ROTS, Dooku has more control and mastery over the force than Anakin, while Anakin has the raw abilities on his side. However, those abilities are meaningless against someone as experienced as Dooku, and he will almost always lose in a force battle. Now as of ANH, he is superior to Dooku because not only has he mastered the force and gained control, but he's had 20 extra years to study the dark side. This isn't a debate really. Dooku>Anakin as of ROTS.

Originally posted by Faunus
Meh. I hate Gillard with a burning passion. Ray Park all the way!

Lmao.

In Labyrinth of Evil, Count Dooku listed upper-tier Jedi that, in a duel, would make him pity General Grievous (he was listing Jedi who would essentially kick the General's ass).

The same General Grievous that Count Dooku mentions is more dangerous than Ventress in Dark Rendezvous, the same General Grievous who soundly defeated Ventress and Durge simultaneously, and - most especially - the same General Grievous that Dooku admitted he was hard-pressed to defeat.

So we conceivably have a guy who is on par with Obi-Wan in skill, who would defeat Grievous, and potentially make Dooku work for his victory.

And Anakin curbstomped him. I sincerely believe you all underestimate his raw power. In the context of a lightsaber fight, it really would go a long way.

Originally posted by Faunus
Would you like to provide some?
They do have a conversation before hand and Anakin kills him before he can react. that should count for something

I haven't played the game, personally, so I'm going on a bit of hearsay, but shouldn't that Anakin lifts up Jocasta and spears her on the spot be a bit of a nod to him in regards to power? The woman is described as a formidable Jedi, after all.

In Durge's first appearance, he laughs off an attempt in a Mind Trick, and Obi-wan and Glaive can't budge him with the Force...he just laughs "Like THAT'S never happened before!"
I can't recall the exact 2, but the collection it's in is CW vol. 2

I'm not seeing the relevance to the gravity there, especially considering we've seen others fail and strain to move things in space.

And I sourced the first two, thank you. Obsession issue 3. SWtimeline is down, so I can't get any pics from it.

I mean the power that made Dooku realize he was a dead man, actually. You can't deny Dooku felt Anakin's power with the Force and realized he couldn't stand to it.

Would I ever deny Yoda's a very impressive guy? Heck no. Moreover, an escape pod's about as big as your average star craft and you're still guiding it from course all the way to the sun? And again: considering we've seen people fail to affect things already in space, I don't see how the authors giving much thought to the gravity issue

Quit downplaying things.
We've seen two Jedi try at the same time to Force push Durge and he only rocked back on his heels, laughing. Anakin focuses and Durge is hurled across the room. Durge isn't just another non Force sensitive, he's been killing Jedi for about two thousand years and killed both Jedi and Sith during the Great War. He's not a feather weight

Which, I'm sure, will work without a hitch on Anakin.
If Dooku could do that as easily on Anakin, it's very doubtful he'd have died

Or we look at how fighting works and conclude that such properties are faulty due to the nature of the duels, environments, mindsets and the like.
The factor is? Anakin loses to Obi-wan because he makes an arrogant mistake in that duel. Dooku loses to Anakin because Anakin out fights him. Simple enough. There is nothing hinting Anakin did not defeat Dooku legitimately throughout SW lore.

The same Count Dooku who realizes nothing he does against Anakin will be of any use? Same Count Dooku who realizes Anakin is more powerful than he imagined and that when Anakin has decided to kill Dooku the rest is detail?
OH, and you'll have to remind me: Who's hit harder during the force push duel? Anakin is certainly the one who finds his feet first.

OK I'm confused. So Obiwan couldn't force push Durge, but Grievous was more powerful than Durge, and yet Obiwan wtfpwned Grievous with a force push. Man, I love the inconsistencies. GL needs to stop rolling around in his cash and start filling in the blanks.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
OK I'm confused. So Obiwan couldn't force push Durge, but Grievous was more powerful than Durge, and yet Obiwan wtfpwned Grievous with a force push. Man, I love the inconsistencies. GL needs to stop rolling around in his cash and start filling in the blanks.

General Grievous managed to incapacitate Durge, not terminate or permenantly defeat him. The difference is that Grievous was (of course) the superior tactition by far, and he was more skilled.

Interesting. In terms of sheer power, was he not the superior as well?

Whatever LS; I don't see a point in arguing this anymore if you're going to skirt around every one of my points. I don't like repeating myself, so I don't think I will.

Don't talk to me about 'skirting points,' Faunus. I acknowledge Dooku has a greater control over the Force than Anakin does. Whether that will help him any more than it did when he needed it most on board the Invisible Hand is another matter.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
It's flawd. OH, why's this? IT contradicts your opinion? Considering there aren't points where the visual dictionary contradicts the movie, your point is incredibly flawed.
Especially considering it remains a part of SW canon that, shockingly, agree with one another...in fact, Nai, the only thing that doesn't agree with you.

Lmao, Lightsnake. It contradicts the movie and because of that it is flawed. Where did you see Anakin and Obi-Wan using different forms or developing uber teamwork against Dooku ? I must have missed that one in the movie.



Lmao, Lightsnake. It was Lucas approved, yes. But based on an older version of Lucas vision of the fight. The movie shows pretty clear that they aren't holding back unless you want to tell me that they actually fight better while holding back and using unfamiliar styles than with their actual styles while not holding back.



The two handed overhead super-power slash which is Anakin's initial attack in the fight actually screams "Hello. I'm using Djem So !" while Obi-Wan's close distance blaster bolt deflection against the droids says "Hello. I'm using Soresu !" Not to mention that they - if you want to apply the novel timing on the movie - did fight better against Dooku using faked styles while holding back than with their original forms (when Dooku completely owned them). What was your point again ?



Lmao, Lightsnake. That one was just great. The Visual Dictionary is made to give additional information on things appearing visibly in the movie. Motivations and thoughts clearly don't belong to that department.



You are somehow again failing to get the point, Lightsnake. Nowhere in the movie is Dooku in any kind of danger until he provokes Anakin. It doesn't matter what happened in the novel - it didn't happen on screen. On screen Dooku is completely controlling the fight until the point where he provokes Anakin.

I'm not even arguing that Anakin was too powerful for Dooku to control after Dooku provoked him. The point is that Dooku could still have unleashed a barrage of force lightning on Anakin (as we saw him doing this while fighting - and he's still using only one hand against Anakin) while Anakin was forcing him backwards. Not to mention that he could easily have killed or defeated Anakin when Anakin was on the ground, hadn't he taken the time to drop that metal construction on the already knocked out Kenobi.



Which is another nice irrelevant missdirection because you seem to argue a completely different subject than I do...



Nope. I'd rather let it Chee tell to you:
"G-canon is "George Lucas" canon; the six Episodes and anything directly provided to Lucas Licensing by Lucas (including unpublished production notes from him or his production department that are never seen by the public). Elements originating with Lucas in the movie novelizations, reference books, and other sources are also G-canon, though anything created by the authors of those sources is C-canon."


That's the second time I quoted this to you. If something is not fitting the latest interpretation of events within the SW universe by Lucas it's simply C-Canon. Lucas may have approved the novel version completely, even word by word. Point is: After that he obviously changed certain things in his vision making the interpretation of events offered by the novel (or the VD for that matter) pretty useless, because they don't mirror what happened in the movie any longer.



The point is that Obi-Wan was fully capable to put up a suitable defence against Anakin's force attack and even affect Anakin himself, while he appeared to be completely defenseless when Dooku force choked him, lifted him from the ground and tossed him across the room knocking him out.



Yes. But how does "more powerful than Dooku had imagined" translate into "more powerful than Dooku himself" ? Going by sheer potential Anakin definetly was more powerful than Dooku but he wasn't capable of controlling all of his potential yet. Not even remotely close to it.



I wonder where Sidious said that Anakin is superior to Dooku ? Because he mentioned he will get himself a younger and more powerful apprentice ? Of course. But he was thinking in long terms all the time in a similar fashion he did when telling Yoda, that Anakin will become more powerful than Yoda and himself. Doesn't mean that Anakin already was more powerful in RotS.



And in a similar state he can't overpower Obi-Wan and ends up with taking a nice lava bath. It's a little bit irritating for me that people come here and try to give 239.5 billions reasons for Anakin losing against Obi-Wan instead of coming up with a single reason why the people Anakin actually defeated were killed by him. One could actually develop the oppinion that this place is littered with Anakin fanboys.

As you said yourself: Dooku was surprised by Anakin's power because he didn't expect Anakin to be as powerful as he was once using the Dark Side. Obvious conclusion: Anakin took a surprised Dooku out. What would have happened if Dooku - like Kenobi - would have been aware of the extend of Anakin's power in terms of force powers and lightsaber mastery ? Do you want to argue that Obi-Wan is superior to Dooku in one of that departments ? I hope not. Obvious conclusion: Dooku would have been very well capable of defeating Anakin, had he been aware of Anakin's actual power like Obi-Wan was.

And the temple ? Yay. You are of course aware of the fact that the Jedi must have been pretty much surprised when their "great hope" the "Chosen One" the guy that was said to "bring balance to the force" and to "destroy the Sith" came marching into their freaking temple with a legion of Clone Troopers and actually attacked them. I guess they might have been a little bit shocked because of that. And going by the influence the death off some Jedi had on Yoda (when Order 66 was given) I guess that feeling the death of hundrets or thousands of Jedi right next to you might also have a bad influence on your fighting abilties if you happen to be a Jedi yourself.




Well. The movie says so ? I was under the impression that Sidious says so. Haven't people lectured you enough already about the fact that character oppinions happen to be fallible ? And you really believe that words of Sidious in RoDV ? You really think that Sidious would sacrifice Anakin for keeping an apprentice like Dooku who was not only less powerful than Sidious but also older - meaning that keeping him as apprentice would ultimately have lessened the power of the Sith ? No really, dude.



You mean aside from the movie that shows us that Anakin and Obi-Wan are equal when it comes to actual force mastery, when the same movie shows us that Dooku is far superior to Obi-Wan in that department ?



You mean aside of Dooku's face when Sidious commands Anakin to kill him ?

Actually Nai, in regards to what Sidious said in RODV, yes I believe it. If Dooku was more powerful than Anakin, it would make no sense for Sidious to keep Anakin since Sidious wants the strongest apprentice possible. So he'd keep Dooku and meanwhile look for someone more powerful.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Lmao, Lightsnake. It contradicts the movie and because of that it is flawed. Where did you see Anakin and Obi-Wan using different forms or developing uber teamwork against Dooku ? I must have missed that one in the movie.
Except...it doesn't contradict the movie. Not one iota. The visual guide shows pictures of the fight and elaborates.
That's it. The idea of what it contradicts is your opinion, that's all.
Get it through your head: the novelization and the visual dictionary are different


It does? Really? Good thing how official material doesn't seem to back you up on the matter.
So, unless you have something from Lucas or anything that isn't your own interpretation? I'll be glad to go with what canon says over you.



Wow. Blocking blaster bolts from droids just screams a form never named in the movie. Notice Anakin's attacks aren't nearly as powerful as they are later?
Or how Obi-wan deflects said blaster bolts when he attacks DROIDS and not Dooku? OR how you're referring to bits not in the direct opening engagements as specified? Right.


Oh, sorry. Didn't realize you worked for LFL as to identify the direct purpose of their materials.



Which is kind of the point: When he provokes Anakin, he's a dead man. He knows it, Anakin knows it and Palpatine knows it.
Hence the point I've kind of been making: When provoked, Anakin>Dooku

So Dooku's own flaws prevented him from winning the fight? Good to know there.
IF your'e not arguing that when provoked Anakin was more powerful than Dooku, what's this about?


That's wonderful! I asked Chee questions on the matter-and you saw the results.
So, according to Chee, thoughts, narrative and the like could definitely be considered G-canon if they are non-contradictory. Stover himself had something to say on what constituted Star Wars fact on the matter and since the sources don't contradict, I'm very willing to take Chee's word on the matter long before I even consider yours. Unless Lucas makes a special edition of the prequels that goes against all narration and thought process, it stands



And Dooku realizes he can do absolutely nothing to affect Anakin when he's on the warpath. And how Obi-wan fails to budge Durge with the Force and Anakin hurls him across the room
A>B>C doesn't apply here



Occam's Razor might hAve a little to say, especially when several other sources do state anakin was more powerful than Dooku. Including the movie itself. And I don't recall 'potential' mentioned...in fact, RODV seems to do away with the idea of 'potential' being referred to.



Right, he's thinking long term.
Yeah, prove it. HE tells Anakin flat out in RODV that if 'Darth Tyranus was more powerful, you'd be dead.' Palpatine doesn't seem to be thinking long term in regards to this when his master plan is days away from implementation and
The difference is? He tells Yoda Anakin WILL become more powerful than them. The difference with Dooku? He states Anakin was and is more powerful than Darth Tyranus

Quite potentially because Obi-wan is able to hold his own given Anakin's current lack of sanity, control and knowing Anakin's style backwards and forwards and winning in the end due to Anakin's arrogance in combination with the environment. Hardly a matter of what happened with Obi-wan and Dooku.
Again: Fights aren't perfectly linear. Anakin being capable of defeating Tyranus doesn't mean he's capable of defeating Obi-wan in a totally different scenario


Uh, no. Dooku is described as using all of his energy just trying to holding Anakin off and is still slaughtered like a sheep regardless. Anakin defeats a Dooku describes as using all of his power to fight for his life.
If Dooku had been aware of the extent of Anakin's power, he would've likely surrendered on the spot.


The surprise fades pretty damn quickly considering more than a few Jedi go after Anakin with sheer intent to kill. Cin, Jocasta and Serra sure weren't holding back when they went after him. Anakin executing Jurokk in front of the Temple kind of confirmed that it was time to slash first, question later. You overlooked Anakin effortlessly defeating Cin Drallig, by the way.



Hm, would Palpatine keeps Dooku around if Anakin were less powerful? Let me think abou- yes. He makes it clear to Dooku in Labyrinth of Evil if Anakin isn't strong enough, he's expendable, and that if he 'gets the upper hand', Palpatine will save Dooku.
since when does age even enter into this? A Jedi of Dooku's power can live another ten-twenty years easily and Palpatine already had a lavish set up plan with Dooku. You're telling me he's going to throw away one of the most powerful Jedi the Order ever produced who got stronger under Palpatine, for an untested boy on an entire assumption ? Do you really think Palpatine would be willing to give up Dooku if Anakin wasn't an already worthy replacement in power and ability?

Yes, Nai, considering I've seen the opinions based on what someone in G-canon says. Or is Palpatine aiming for a totally nefarious scheme that requires a lie to General Grievous? Considering there is absolutely no direct motive behind the lie, the context makes it pretty clear Palpatine isn't lying in either scenarios and we have numerous sources offhand saying that Anakin's power>Dooku, including one that was personally reviewed by Lucas, I'd say yeah, it's pretty open and shut, unless you suddenly want to claim they're all invalid in favor of an opinion which not one single piece of official work supports whatsoever.



i'm sorry, I forget where a single Force Push-that hits Obi-wan harder than it does Anakin- is definitive proof of anything.
Different fights, different scenarios. Anakin is not in control. Obi-wan is. Both are hit and Anakin doesn't hit the ground as hard nor does he stay down as long



Oh, right, it must mean there's an elaborate plan in place, not that Dooku isn't shocked that Palpatine is ordering his death. Nope, his loss must've been planned....couldn't possibly be that he's just surprised his master isn't saving him...

Even if Dooku was stronger then Anakin, that doesn't mean much. He was about three and a half times the Chosen One's age. Sidious neaded new aprentice. Someone with more potential, someone younger, someone that was more easy to manipulate. Dooku had his own ambitions, he wasn't just another Maul...He used to be a Jedi master for crist's sake...One of the better ones

Originally posted by Lightsnake Quite potentially because Obi-wan is able to hold his own given Anakin's current lack of sanity, control and knowing Anakin's style backwards and forwards and winning in the end due to Anakin's arrogance in combination with the environment. Hardly a matter of what happened with Obi-wan and Dooku.I just love the vast number of excuses people can make to justify Anakin's defeat.

And for the record, Anakin himself states in RoDV that he "wasn't strong enough" to beat Obi-Wan; hence his getting mauled. His arrogance and overestimation of his own power got to him, yes, but just as you say Dooku's arrogance is with him forever, so is Anakin's. So any version of Anakin willing to fight Obi-Wan to the death is always going to have that hot-headed streak, and so will usually be met with defeat.

In the novel.

Again, in the novel.

Bullshit. He didn't surrender to Yoda, did he? Or Mace? Both Anakin's vast superiors? No, Dooku wouldn't surrender, but if he found himself hard-pressed he would find a way out.

Which isn't that big of a deal. Dooku's effortlessly defeated half of the PT.

You've got to be kidding me. Palpatine already knew that Anakin was more valuable than Dooku, hence his stalking the kid for thirteen years.

Uh, did you miss the part where Dooku lost his head?

As opposed to Anakin, who could easily live for another century.

LS, this is pathetic. The "plan" Sidious had told Dooku about was all a complete sham. He obviously never intended to convert the entire Jedi Order into an army of dark acolytes; wiping out all the Jedi in the galaxy after Dooku died would've put a dent in that plan.

Yes. Because Anakin isn't untested, and that is why Palpatine was counting on him to win.

WTF is this, some kind of joke? The entire ****ing point of the argument was that Obi-Wan had far greater control and mastery over his powers, and that is why they stalemated in the fight. Now your excuse is that Anakin lacks control? Well no shit.

No, they both hit the tables equally hard, and neither are down for more than a second. The difference being that Anakin gets up and bounds across the room while Obi-Wan gets up and just waits for the attack.

Uh, did you even read the quote? Seriously. . .

It says anything created by the authors is to be considered C-canon. Nothing about contradictions. If it's created by the authors, it's C-canon. Since we don't see the thoughts of Anakin and Obi-Wan, everything we are told about it is to be considered C-canon. Since we don't see Anakin and Obi-Wan switching up forms but the authors tell us it happens, it's C-canon.

Hell, let's pretend they do switch forms between the first and second sequences. The first - when they're supposedly faking - ends with all of them standing up, exchanging one-liners and being happy. The second - when they're supposed to be all serious and adherent to their new forms - Obi-Wan gets put on his ass. Now, going all out Djem So and Soresu, Anakin meet Dooku at the stairs and what happens? They get destroyed. Damn, that's a perfect argument to use in support of the Jedi!

Anakin is better than Dooku accept it.

Originally posted by playa1258
Anakin is better than Dooku accept it.

then prove it

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Quite potentially because Obi-wan is able to hold his own given Anakin's current lack of sanity, control and knowing Anakin's style backwards and forwards and winning in the end due to Anakin's arrogance in combination with the environment. Hardly a matter of what happened with Obi-wan and Dooku.
Again: Fights aren't perfectly linear. Anakin being capable of defeating Tyranus doesn't mean he's capable of defeating Obi-wan in a totally different scenario

This is really great, Lightsnake.
Anakin lacked sanity ? That would affect his force powers or lightsaber skill how exactly ? Irrelevant missdirection.

And the great thing is: Fights aren't perfectly linear ? Wow. So you are telling me that if only a slight change of the circumstances is present, the fight will went an entire different way ? Would that, thinking of Dooku VS Anakin, apply if this had been a fight in which Dooku would have been allowed to hurt or kill Anakin and in which Dooku would have utilized his entire force mastery against Anakin ? No shit, Lightsnake. Why are you even arguing here, if you seem to share my oppinion in general ?



Yes. The novel says so. Evidence to the contrary would be the movie which shows how easily Dooku was capable of dealing with Obi-Wan and Anakin at once when he was allowed to hurt one of them (Obi-Wan). Again I might ask you: Does "using the Dark Side" equate to gaining strength which is above Obi-Wans complete power in addition to Anakin's resources when not going Dark Side ? Because this is, effectively, what you are stating here. But this again would have meant that Anakin should have destroyed Obi-Wan easily.



Urm. Yeah. Like he surrendered on the spot when confronting Yoda and Mace ? I was under the impression that he managed to escape Yoda twice.



And you overlooked that Dooku was better than 99,997 % of the PT Jedi Order (with Mace, Yoda and Anakin being the exceptions) so I really don't know what's so special there ? Anakin, fighting with one hand, defeated Cin and a Padawan simultaneously. Dooku owned Tholme and Sora Bulq, two Jedi Masters with one of them being a Vaapad practioner fighting them with one hand and completely demolishing them with his force mastery.

Aside of that you apparently overlooked my entire argument.



I can only agree with Faunus: Did you miss the part where Dooku lost his head ? Aside of that: Sidious was completely aware of Anakin's strength since he new everything Anakin did in the last 13 years. Can you please tell me how he should have suggested that Anakin was not strong enough to become his next apprentice and would likely develop into a stronger force user than Dooku and even Sidious himself. Especially since he tells Yoda that this will be the case later ?



You must have forgotten somehow, that Anakin's power had been tested by analyzing his midi-chlorian count which simlply exceeded the scale and even topped that of Yoda. Let me think a second: Would Palpatine sacrifice an 80 year old guy to take the 20 year old guy with the much higher force potential ? Urm. Hard to tell. Different question: Would you prefer a 80 year old witch for having sex because she is likely more experienced in the art of making love than a 20 year old sexy girl ? Hmm. I don't think so.



Palpatine knew already that Anakin would develop into a more powerful force user than Dooku before setting up that little fight. So what ? He didn't want to test Anakin's power but his will to give into his anger. Had Anakin not killed Dooku, Sidious could have switched back to the plan he told Dooku before.



I'm still asking myself what the F*CK it is that you refuse to get into your head. I'm not arguing actual power here, I'm talking about force mastery. Did Anakin have Dooku's force mastery ? Nope. Otherwise he would have owned Obi-Wan. Power ? Doesn't matter because power needs control to be applied effectively something that Anakin was clearly lacking. Want to argue that ? Take it up with Lucas or the damn movie instead of littering the place with irrelevant missdirections.



Wow, genious. After having argued with the entire time that Anakin lacks force control you come up with the excuse for him not being able to overpower Obi-Wan being his lack of force control ? Holy s...



Lmao. This is so great. And why is Dooku shocked that Sidious is ordering his death ? Maybe because Sidious told him about his plan which basically said "Get captured by Anakin and I'll give you amnesty later" ?

Originally posted by Borbarad
This is really great, Lightsnake.
Anakin lacked sanity ? That would affect his force powers or lightsaber skill how exactly ? Irrelevant missdirection.

Hm, gee...how would not having your head about you affect your fighting skills or force ability? Hm, grasp on power and how to even fight, perhaps?


My opinion is that at his best, Anakin>Dooku. He's more powerful in the force and Dooku was unable to beat him.
Share that opinion"? Great. Quit being a condescending ass on par with IKC every post


Oh, except the visual guide backs it up, giving evidence of the scene and your opinion that it didn't happen is kind of contradicted. Evidence would be given, then by two seperate sources and unless Obi-wan and Anakin started shouting out what forms they're using? There's not a contradiction

And no, using the Dark side did not give Anakin enough strength to easily destroy Obi-wan


I was also on the impression he had an escape route open when he fought Yoda and ran away when he realized he was beaten.
He also believed himself capable of taking Yoda on both occasions.
Not a one of those would apply in facing a full on Anakin



Sora yes, Tholme he defeated in a saber duel. And Dooku saw fit to evidence Cin as one of the ORder's best, and Cin was likely above Sora as it was.
Dooku was indeed better than all but 3 of the Jedi Order at that point....Cin was likely superior to most himself



What part of the first part of this statement is absent from my argument?
Why don't you stop making excuses and actual reduce this to simplest forms: Palpatine knew Anakin was more powerful. He says Anakin will eventual become more powerful than himself or Yoda....last I checked, Dooku is not as powerful as those two. When Palpatine talks to Grievous, he simply says the Apprentice he'll gain will be 'younger and more powerful'...not 'will become more powerful than Tyranus ever was.' Unless anakin undergoes a radical increase in power in such a short time...



Palpatine is putting the final stages of his plan into action and he's cultivated Anakin for 13 years. The entire point was to test Anakin to see how powerful he'd become. If it was simply that Anakin would later become more powerful, he could easily have had Dooku taken into custody.

That Palpatine would toss aside one of the most powerful beings in the history of the SW galaxy in favor of someone who wasn't already more powerful seems a bit suspect

And congratulations on what might be the most bizarre analogy ever.



He knew from the start how powerful Anakin would become. The entire point of the fight was to prove it once and for all. He tells Anakin that it was a test of the Apprentices' power well enough later...
If Anakin didn't kill Dooku, Palpatine would've been well and surely in trouble, too.
Where are you getting that it was simply to test Anakin's willingness to kill Dooku? Is Palpatine not figuring in the fight with his plans at all? Is he supposed to know that Anakin will have Dooku that helpless at swordpoint? That grievously wounded?



Perhaos you're confused: I'm not arguing Anakin's force mastery is inferior. I'm saying it won't help Dooku in the least with Anakin focused on him completely-Dooku even realizes nothing he can do makes a difference and expends all his energy just into fighting anakin with his saber.



At that particular moment? yes. That Anakin demonstrated far greater ability in the Force than Obi-wan at other points? Undeniable



Or maybe "I'll help you if anything goes wrong."
Please try to give me a source that tells of this plan without defaulting on the EU, Nai, please do. Nowhere in the movie or from Lucas himself is a plan that extends to 'get captured by Anakin' hinted at...Just from watching the movie, you could make the assumption Dooku really meant to take Coruscant and establish a new Order from there and wasn't aware Palpatine had ulterior motives.

LMAO!!

Edit: BTW, what proof is there exactly for Obi-Wan's supposed inferiority to Dooku in the force?

What are you kidding me?

No joke. From a force ability standpoint, I see no evidence that Dooku is above someone who can hurl Grievous about dozens of feet into the air with telekinesis with a simple hand movement while in the middle of a furious duel. From what I've seen in this thread, Dooku's supposed superiority is based on him overpowering Obi-Wan with the force twice in their RotS duel. However, what people seem to have ignored is that Dooku was only able to overpower Obi-Wan while they were both saber dueling, and while Obi-Wan was concentrating on Dooku's blade. So really, where exactly is the defence there? How exactly is Obi-Wan supposed to anticipate Dooku attempting such a force manoeuvre when the darkside was preventing him from being able to see into the future? How could Obi-Wan have possible put up a proper defence, let alone one to perfect efficiency? If anything, all it speaks for is a superiority in dueling ability/tactics/concentration, not force strength/mastery.

Originally posted by nmensfinest
No joke. From a force ability standpoint, I see no evidence that Dooku is above someone who can hurl Grievous about dozens of feet into the air with telekinesis with a simple hand movement while in the middle of a furious duel. From what I've seen in this thread, Dooku's supposed superiority is based on him overpowering Obi-Wan with the force twice in their RotS duel. However, what people seem to have ignored is that Dooku was only able to overpower Obi-Wan while they were both saber dueling, and while Obi-Wan was concentrating on Dooku's blade. So really, where exactly is the defence there? How exactly is Obi-Wan supposed to anticipate Dooku attempting such a force manoeuvre when the darkside was preventing him from being able to see into the future? How could Obi-Wan have possible put up a proper defence, let alone one to perfect efficiency? If anything, all it speaks for is a superiority in dueling ability/tactics/concentration, not force strength/mastery.

Well lets see, Dooku has had 60 decades to hone his force abilities.. Dooku is also now a sith lord, meaning he has dark side abilities such as force lightning. He has mastery and control over the force that Obiwan does not possess.. It's obvious.

Wow, great argument. I guess Yoda should have been able to own Palpatine with ease then... Oh wait, that's not what happened, they stalemated... Now just go and ignore factors such as force strength and talent, why don't you?



Wow, great argument. I guess Palpatine should have been able to own Yoda with ease then... Oh wait, that's not what happened, they stalemated... Now just go and ignore factors such as force power and control, why don't you?



'Cause of his experience and the fact that he can use the darkside? Lol...
More like the opposite's obvious given that Obi-Wan's force displays rival those of Yoda, who's quite clearly on a whole different level to Dooku.

Originally posted by nmensfinest ]Wow, great argument. I guess Yoda should have been able to own Palpatine with ease then... Oh wait, that's not what happened, they stalemated... Now just go and ignore factors such as force strength and talent, why don't you?
Oh I forgot, quality of training. It was stated that Dooku had an amazing grasp of the force, and he had 60+ years of training+a few years of dark side training. I believe Obiwan had very low force sensitivity. Excuse me if I'm not arguing passionately about this, considering it's a given.



What are you stupid? Obiwan's force displays rival YOdas? You mean a force push on Grievous? GOLLY GEE.. Where has he displayed anything on the level of Yoda? Or Dooku? Or Anakin? Or Mace? Sorry, he hasn't.

Originally posted by nmensfinest
Edit: BTW, what proof is there exactly for Obi-Wan's supposed inferiority to Dooku in the force?Well for starters, he's often referred to as one of the mightiest Force-users of his era, and among the most powerful Jedi ever produced by the Order. Considering said Order produced people like Revan, Ulic, and Yoda himself, that's pretty damn impressive. Now, considering you haven't yet shown when Obi-Wan has completely dominated a Force-user with his power, I'll give you some more time before going deeper into this. Not that I should have to, but I guess I shouldn't be suprised.

That's great. However clearly you've forgotten that Obi-Wan's displays of force telekinesis are arguably on par with Yoda's himself (for example when Yoda seemingly puts all his effort into preventing the fall of the giant pillar in AotC at the end of his duel with Obi-Wan; Obi-Wan's ability to hurl Grievous into the air is arguably greater, and required less effort), the guy who was in a whole different league to Count Dooku, and the guy who may possibly have possessed the greatest potential int he order before Anakin if we're going to base our knowledge on the Jedi order's archives and Obi-Wan's implications in TPM ("his midi-chlorian count is off the charts, even greater than Yoda's" ). So is it really that much of a stretch to assume those same things for Obi-Wan?



Since when is dominating force users the standard to beat? In case you didn't know, jedi aren't exactly instructed to use the force offensively (exception being telekinesis to my knowledge), and it's not exactly like force users can't get caught off guard by surprise force attacks. There were also far less darksiders that Obi-Wan could have used his powers against, whereas thousands of Jedi for Count Dooku. Either way I was asking for actual proof Of Dooku being above Obi-Wan in the force, so if you really wish to do so it's up to you to substantiate the power required to dominate a force user.

Originally posted by nmensfinest

More like the opposite's obvious given that Obi-Wan's force displays rival those of Yoda, who's quite clearly on a whole different level to Dooku.

Wow, never heard that one before talk about being a Kenobi fanboy. You think Kenobi and Dooku are close in the force? There not even close, you clearly don't much about Dooku if you think that. Now Yoda and Dooku are close, obviously, we have seen this, Yoda is stronger but it is a close match.

Originally posted by Faunus
Well for starters, he's often referred to as one of the mightiest Force-users of his era, and among the most powerful Jedi ever produced by the Order. Considering said Order produced people like Revan, Ulic, and Yoda himself, that's pretty damn impressive. Now, considering you haven't yet shown when Obi-Wan has completely dominated a Force-user with his power, I'll give you some more time before going deeper into this. Not that I should have to, but I guess I shouldn't be suprised.

revan and ullic were from a different order cause remember kotor 2 was all about haveing the exile start the order again

In regards to the Force, Obi-wan's pretty inferior to the Count

Originally posted by nmensfinest
That's great. However clearly you've forgotten that Obi-Wan's displays of force telekinesis are arguably on par with Yoda's himself
(for example when Yoda seemingly puts all his effort into preventing the fall of the giant pillar in AotC at the end of his duel with Obi-Wan;Clearly you're out of your mind. Tossing a non-Force-sensitive - weighing 200 kg tops - is in no way comparable to supporting and levitating a falling, giant crane. Mind you, Yoda deflected a missile weighing several hundred kgs - and falling at tens of thousands of kilometers per hour - and knocked it almost completely off course. Love to see Kenobi try that one.

This is the second most ridiculous assertion I've seen this post. Congrats.

And the guy you're comparing Obi-Wan's Force power to. Nice. And note that the guy who you're saying is in a "different league" in comparison to Dooku - bullshit, by the way - managed to go ahead and almost beat Sidious, while Obi-Wan was deemed too weak. The evidence just keeps rolling in. . .

Oh, God yes.

Since you started using Obi-Wan's pwnage of a non-sensitive as evidence for his superiority to Dooku, who in case you hadn't noticed, has utterly dominated numerous Force-users of renown with his power.

Really? I hadn't noticed. I guess that whole thing about Obi-Wan tossing away Grievous like a toy - you know, the thing you're basing your argument on - isn't offensive use of telekinesis. Oh wait!

You should really read your posts before clicking "Submit"; putting down stuff in favor of my argument isn't going to get you very far.

The "surprise" being when Obi-Wan stands there, looking straight at Dooku while he throws out his hand and puts him on his ass? Or when he charged him and ended up getting thrown across the room?

Damn. Stunning argument. I guess Dooku actually did personally fight more than six individual Jedi between the beginning and end of the Clone Wars. No, he must have fought off the entire Order, him being so easily accessible and all. And as for Obi-Wan, I guess you're ignoring all five or six of his encounters with Asajj Ventress - who, I'd like to add, starting literally crushing his ass with the Force in their first meeting - not to mention Dooku's entire cadre of Dark side acolytes. Not enough chances indeed. Obi-Wan had at least as much and probably many more opportunities to attack a Force-sensitive enemy.

Obviously the power required to dominate a Force-sensitive varies from being-to-being. Unless you think Obi-Wan would be as hard to overpower as Yoda. Oh wait!

To be honest, I've already wasted far too much time, energy, and battery life on you and your "argument," which gets more and more pathetic by the sentence. So considering you're the one here trying to tell me that Obi-Wan is as powerful as Yoda (WTF?) and that the guy who got Force-spanked twice in thirty seconds is somehow more powerful than the man who did the spanking, I'd say you're an idiot, we're talking about a different saga, or you happen to be one of the most blatanty biased fanboys here.

Good lord, I wish Rex banned for stupidity.

I don't think you need to look further than ROTS or how Dooku effortlessly brings down Asajj Ventress for proof that he's stronger than Obi-wan with the Force...

Meh. I felt inspired.

Faunus, are you telling me that Yoda and Dooku are in the same league?

LMAO, you bring the guy's little green sexy time partner into this and it's war! Anyway Faunus, I hardly care enough about this argument to reply to it quote by quote like everyone here seems so fond of doing, so I'm gonna break this down a little.

Your arguments for Dooku's supposed superiority over Obi-Wan in the force are:

1. That he 'force spanked' him twice in their duel.

From what I've seen in this thread, Dooku's supposed superiority is based on him overpowering Obi-Wan with the force twice in their RotS duel. However, what people seem to have ignored is that Dooku was only able to overpower Obi-Wan while they were both saber dueling, and while Obi-Wan was concentrating on Dooku's blade. So really, where exactly is the defence there? How exactly is Obi-Wan supposed to anticipate Dooku attempting such a force manoeuvre when the darkside was preventing him from being able to see into the future? How could Obi-Wan have possible put up a proper defence, let alone one to perfect efficiency? If anything, all it speaks for is a superiority in dueling ability/tactics/concentration, not force strength/mastery.

Officially owned.

2. That he's able to force dominate force users.

Clearly you're quite new to the whole process of debating, and clearly you've never quite realised that when arguing a point, you need to 100% provide valid explanations for said point. You haven't done this, you need to substantiate exactly what force dominating force users requires, and prove that it's beyond what Obi-Wan can do. Until then, you have no argument. Also, might I add just how wonderfully elaborate this argument was; claiming that he's force dominated force users without saying whom he exactly dominated; truly wonderful, great way to gauge Dooku's ability in comparison to Obi-Wan.

Officially owned.

3. That he's been stated as one of the greatest force users of his time and in the entire jedi order.

Same as above; substantiate this, and prove that Obi-Wan wouldn't qualify. Simply saying that Dooku's one of the Jedi's greatest force users and one of the greatest force users of his time, and then claiming that that puts him above Obi-Wan without proving that Obi-Wan doesn't qualify is what you'd call an in-absolute argument.

Officially owned.

Try again.

If Obi-wan can rival Dooku in the force, then the force is clearly a useless tool since he was left in a crumpled heap on the two occasions they fought.

Originally posted by nmensfinest
LMAO, you bring the guy's little green sexy time partner into this and it's war! Anyway Faunus, I hardly care enough about this argument to reply to it quote by quote like everyone here seems so fond of doing, so I'm gonna break this down a little.
I wonder if you're Noobaris, only he'd be dumb enough to argue this.


Which is not only fact, but an argument that trumps any argument you have for Obiwan supposedly being superior to Dooku.


Omg overpowering in the force? Gee, that means he's... STRONGER... Dumbass. Obiwan was concentrating on Dooku's blade and that's why Dooku overpowered him with the force? That is by far the dumbest assessment of a duel I've ever heard.


Right, you HAVE been officially owned with your ridiculously incompetent nonsense. The fact that you would tell yourself that you actually owned Faunus in a debate means that you're not only dumb as dumb gets, but you're also in denial.


Yea, Faunus is the new ne to debating, not the idiot who's making a fool out of himself. Since you don't know how to debate, let me break it down for you. In the SW universe, it is virtually fact that Dooku>>>>Obiwan in the force. So Faunus does NOT have to provide an argument for Dooku(although he has which trumps your nonsense). The burden of proof is on you not because you're arguing against fact, but because you made the claim. Prove up or shut up, stop embarassing yourself.

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g72/cougarram5/owned-41174.jpg

Originally posted by nmensfinest
Anyway Faunus, I hardly care enough about this argumentWhich is, of course, why you're still here after getting your ass kicked.

"aka I don't think I can make a defense against the vast majority of points in your last post so I'm going to try and nitpick like an ignorant moron.

I lol'd again.

Except, again, if Obi-Wan was worth two shits he wouldn't just be concentrating on the blade of one of the most powerful Force-users alive.

. . .

I guess you really never know what a fanboy might pull out of his ass.

Again, if he didn't, that's his complete failing as a combatant. And again, the first time, Obi-Wan was just standing there at the edge of the screen, watching as Dooku started to push him. The second, Obi-Wan charged him. He was also suspended in the air for a few seconds before getting tossed away like a ragdoll. And since he couldn't get out of that grip, he's weaker. Unless you think - and you probably do - that if Obi-Wan was stronger in the Force he'd just let Dooku choke him and smash him into a platform. You know, for fun!

LMAO!

You know, I'd like to try something. For every time you've posted this, or some other bullshit statement implying that you've actually managed to get the better of me, I'll post one of the many, many things I actually "officially owned" you on.

In reponse to you claiming Obi-Wan is as powerful as Yoda.

Clearly you're out of your mind. Tossing a non-Force-sensitive - weighing 200 kg tops - is in no way comparable to supporting and levitating a falling, giant crane. Mind you, Yoda deflected a missile weighing several hundred kgs - and falling at tens of thousands of kilometers per hour - and knocked it almost completely off course. Love to see Kenobi try that one.

I don't need to gauge the power required to dominate a Force-user, dipshit. It's enough that Dooku has managed to pwn Force-users - one of them being the guy you're trying to make a case for, and failing miserably at - while Obi-Wan just gets consistently blown away by them. And you're forgetting that your argument for Obi-Wan more powerful than Dooku was that he sent Grievous flying (which I pwned - completely).


Ugh, whatever. This being off the top of my head. . .

Sora Bulq: One-handed lightning while he fended off Tholme.
Tholme: Saber-pwns AotC Obi-Wan, then gets the ceiling dropped on his head.
Ventress: Completely fries her at least once for insulting. Note: She was on the verge of literally crushing Obi-Wan's body with the force, and he was helpess to resist.
Quinlan Vos: 1) Toys with him in a duel, then knocks him away with lightning. 2) Vos tries to kill him in his sleep, Dooku picks him up with Force, rips the lightsaber out of his hand, and fries him.

There are many more, including Dooku slaughtering an entire room of people with his power, but I'd need to look them up. Of course, that's hardly necessary since you have no case whatsoever.


In response to you stating Obi-Wan had "less chances" and that Dooku had "the entire Order to fight."

Damn. Stunning argument. I guess Dooku actually did personally fight more than six individual Jedi between the beginning and end of the Clone Wars. No, he must have fought off the entire Order, him being so easily accessible and all. And as for Obi-Wan, I guess you're ignoring all five or six of his encounters with Asajj Ventress - who, I'd like to add, starting literally crushing his ass with the Force in their first meeting - not to mention Dooku's entire cadre of Dark side acolytes. Not enough chances indeed. Obi-Wan had at least as much and probably many more opportunities to attack a Force-sensitive enemy.

Well quite simply: Obi-Wan's power is never referred to as having been extraordinary for his time period, while Yoda, Sidious, Mace, and Dooku are all hailed for having just that. Yoda and Sidious are called the most powerful practitioners of their respective sides in the modern era, and Dooku is considered one of the most powerful Jedi ever produced by the 25,000 year old Order. Simple as that.


In response to you telling me to "quamtefy teh pougher?!":

Obviously the power required to dominate a Force-sensitive varies from being-to-being. Unless you think Obi-Wan would be as hard to overpower as Yoda. Oh wait!

As if I need to.

Let's sum up this argument shall we? You're "argument" for Obi-Wan being more powerful than Dooku is:

a) He Force-pushed Grievous, so he's as powerful as Yoda.
b) He was "surprised" - despite being held aloft for several seconds and therefore having the perfect chance to retaliate - by Dooku's attacks, so they count for nothing.
c) Oh, and let's not forget that I have to "quantify" the power needed to overwhelm a Jedi/Sith, when Obi-Wan's greatest feat was to topple a non-Force user.

Btw, how exactly would I go about that last one? Would I be measuring it in psi? Kcals? Newtons? I'm not Glentract, you know.

Quoting out of context, logical fallacy. It's funny how you can commit fallacy after fallacy and then come back claiming that you kicked my ass (lol, like that's ever gonna happen) when the best you could do was label my points bullshit without providing an explanation as to why.



LMAO, I nitpick? Right, so rather than replying to your argument in whole but the few relevant points you brought up makes what I'm doing nitpicking? No, nitpicking is what you do when you break up my post into about 12 different quotes. I'd suggest learning how to read before using words you don't understand, Faunus.



I'd suggest calming down, we're only on the internet old chap, no need to get too excited, I know I'm interesting to talk to and everything but enough with the giggling like a schoolgirl, it's embarrassing.



While I wouldn't exactly credit Obi-Wan with terrible concentration or a complete lack of the ability to multitask or anything, you need to consider that Dooku was only ever able to force attack Obi-Wan while he was either just out of a saber lock or running and ready to attack. Lots of people can get caught off guard, it doesn't exactly mean that they're not 'worth two shits', otherwise if that's the case, you'd have to consider your boyfriend Yoda or his equal Sidious as not being worth two shits either, seeing as they were both caught off guard by the other as well, and not fully ready for an attack despite being up against arguably the most powerful force user of the time. So yet again, you've failed to prove Dooku's supposed (I know how excited that word makes you, I put it in especially) superiority over Obi-Wan, so try again, and try harder.



I'd suggest paying more attention to the movies, the Jedi constantly state that the darkside was diminishing their ability to use the force (precognition specifically, it's why they were so easily taken out by clones).



I guess Yoda and Sidious fail too, yes?



After just breaking out of a saber lock, and likely expecting Dooku to continue their duel... In short, until you can prove that Obi-Wan would have been perfectly ready to defend a force attack, and was able to apply all of his concentration towards defending the attack, you have no argument.



Exactly, why thank you oh so very much for agreeing here; Obi-Wan was charging Dooku, ready to engage him in saber combat - the perfect opportunity to get caught off guard.



LMAO! Great logic, I guess, in a world full of naked Yodas where humans are able to apply perfect concentration to something while being ferociously choked.


I'll reply to the rest of your bullshit tomorrow or so, because I, unlike you, actually have a life, however I'm sure you would have already replied by then given how much of an internet badass you are, so looking forward to more useless expansion of points, fallacy after fallacy and in short: a nice long essay to reply to, so until then, good day.

Omg, this has to be Noobaris. Nobody is this dumb. This is hilarious..

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Hm, gee...how would not having your head about you affect your fighting skills or force ability? Hm, grasp on power and how to even fight, perhaps?

I'm still waiting for proof that Anakin was confused, mad or in any other form mentally distorted during his fight with Kenobi in a way that would have made him a weaker enemy for Kenobi than he was for Dooku.



No. He's obviously not "powerful" enough when we translate "powerful" to "force mastery" to take Dooku out since he himself admits in RoDV that he was "not powerful enough to beat Kenobi" and has Sidious immediatly agree to that statement.
My entire point is that in a open force power contest Dooku would own Anakin's sorry ass. Want to argue that ?



Do you enjoy arguing in circles, Lightsnake ? Because that clearly seems to be the case. Have a look at our discussion (short version) about this topic so far:

Me: "The novel is flawed because it is based on an earlier script than the movie !"
You: "But it's backed up by the visual dictionary !"
Me: "The VD is based on the novel and the very same earlier script. So it's also flawed."
You: "But it's backed up by the novel !!!"

If you want to keep playing the idiot here, you can do that without me.



What ? But it gives him enought strength to easily destroy Dooku who is above Obi-Wan in both force mastery and lightsaber skill ? Interresting interpretation aside from the fact that it doesn't make any sense.



Wow, Lightsnake. "A full on Anakin" ? What would that be ? Anakin who realized his full potential ? We already know that RotS Anakin / Vader was not powerful enough to take Kenobi and surely not powerful enough to deal with Yoda. Yet why should Dooku fear his power ?



Oh my. The point is that the term "powerful" doesn't imply the ability to use that power which Anakin clearly DID NOT have as he was in RotS. Hence I was talking about actual force mastery here: The ability to use the amount of power you have. And in this discipline, Dooku exceeds both Obi-Wan and Anakin which is apparent from the movie because he is completely tooling Obi-Wan who is on one level with Anakin in that department (impressive enough when talking about Anakin considering that Obi-Wan had 25 years more actual training compared to him). Yet none of them could have survived a direct force confrontation (and I'm talking about something like what Dooku and Yoda did in AotC before their lightsaber fight) with the Count.



Bullshit. Sidious already knew that Anakin would one day be more powerful than any other force user alive at this time. He had the midi-chlorian level (exceeding that of Yoda) and he knew what Anakin had done during the Clone Wars. The point was that he wanted to test if Anakin was ready to join the Dark Side. Therefore he had to see if Anakin was willing to put his own will / emotions over the Jedi Code which he did by killing Dooku.



No. It's logical because Palpatine already knew that Anakin would once become more powerful than Dooku and even himself. It's not as if he was only assuming that this would happen or that any speculation was involved on his side. What seems suspect is that Sidious would toss one of the most powerful beings in the history of the SW galaxy aside for testing something he already knew.



Lmao. No. Instead of finding out what he already knew, Sidious wanted to find out what he didn't knew: If Anakin would put his own emotions and feelings over the Jedi Code.



How exactly ? Do you think anybody would have believed Dooku if he had claimed that Palpatine was a Sith Lord ? For Palpatine in his role as Chancellor it would have been logical to demand that Anakin killed the leader of the CIS who was equipped with Jedi powers and far worse abilities. There was no danger for Sidious there.



Since he commanded Dooku not to hurt Anakin and get capture by him it would have been logical that Anakin would have had Dooku at his mercy at some point. A situation enabling Anakin to kill the Count was part of Sidious' plan because it was the logical consequence of the commands he had given Dooku for that fight.



So now it's harder to fight Anakin for 10 seconds than fighting Yoda for 30 seconds ? Because after doing the latter, Dooku still had enough energy to drop that metal thing on Obi-Wan and Anakin. I don't see why it should have been impossible for him to use the force when fighting Anakin while we see him doing the same thing while being in a saber lock with Yoda. Hardly believeable.



Dude. A "far greater" ability in the force than Obi-Wan ? He does certain things that Obi-Wan can't do, yes. But he didn't exhibit more force mastery than Obi-Wan in direct confrontation which is the point that matters here.



I didn't know that you're allowed to limit my perspective here, Lightsnake. As I said before: If you want to play the idiot here, do it without me. Of course the plan is only descriped in the novel - but in contrary to your beloved points it does neither contradict what is shown in the movie (in fact it explains what happens in the movie), nor is it incompatible with what is shown in the movie, nor is it completely illogical considering the rest of the facts we have.

Nai, since when does Obiwan have 25 years on Anakin? I thought they were about 15 years apart in age

Originally posted by Borbarad
I'm still waiting for proof that Anakin was confused, mad or in any other form mentally distorted during his fight with Kenobi in a way that would have made him a weaker enemy for Kenobi than he was for Dooku.
Look no further than the whole Padme situation



Actually, Sidious tells him Yoda would have slaughtered him. Sidious also says Tyranus wasn't powerful enough to bear Anakin.

Dooku himself seemed to disagree when he thought nothing he did would have helped him whatsoever when Anakin went all out.



Nice try, Nai. Really nice try.
The novelization hasn't entered into question here. I'm arguing from the VD alone, and unlike your opinion it's still canon and its commentary on issues ranks a lot higher than anything you say that is coincidentally not backed up by....well, anything but your own opinion.
Sorry, Nai. SW won't conform to what you want it to be.

Sooner or later, I'm going to compile every ad hominem you've made in this argument. If you want to keep playing the jackass, you've done an excellent job.



And yet, it's exactly what happens.



We also know that ROTS Tyranus was not powerful enough to defeat Anakin- selective perception in regards to RODV much?
Ask Lucas about it.



which is an entire point I've made before. Of course Dooku has a greater knowledge of the Force than Anakin, and a better control of it.
It does seem a it silly to judge it on a "Dooku tools Obi-wan who's on par with Anakin with the Force" When you base that on a single force push between the two and when Anakin has done things with the Force Obi-wan tried and failed to do.
Dooku is older and more knowledgable in the Force. The only thing is? It won't save him



Give me something that you aren't pulling out of thin air already. Palpatine wanted to test Anakin's ability and he tells Tyranus as much in LoE, if my memory serves, he even says if Anakin ends up dying in the contest, he wasn't much worth it. He later tells Anakin that Tyranus.
Again: You're telling me he's throwing away one of the most powerful Sith the Order's ever seen for someone who will one day become more powerful? Rather than throwing him away for someone already better and using this contest to prove it while hopefully removing Obi-wan from the equation?
How on earth do you figure this?



Or, more logically, he's throwing away Tyranus for the sheer factor that he knows Anakin is the more skilled of the two. Tyranus realizes Anakin is better, the script, novelization, VD and quite possibly Lucas himself indicate it's a very legitimate contest of skill...
Seems a bit suspect for Palpatine to risk so much on what 'might' happen. Especially if he's going to be taking on the Order with Anakin who hasn't actually reached a level of skill and power beyond that which someone like Tyranus would reach. It makes very little sense



Which...yeah, he knew. Anakin butchered unarmed WOMEN AND CHILDREN before and Palpatine knew about that. Anakin had dropped a defenseless opponent to her apparent death for threatening Padme, he confessed that to Palpatine, too.
If this was the only test, he could've saved it for Mace. He's really giving up Darth Tyranus, one of the most powerful Sith in all of history, to see if Anakin can kill in cold blood? Strength means NOTHING here?
Never mind how, as stated before, Palpatine knows full well Anakin is willing to kill-and has killed- in cold blood before

Yoda sure as hell would have. From there on, Dooku can just direct them to the loose ends they were missing in areas as LoE, what happened to Sypho-Dyaz....Dooku has clear, intimate knowledge of a lot of what's going on and he can give the evidence to the Jedi.

Except if Anakin refuses, takes Dooku a prisoner and Dooku goes into prison as planned before....Mace and Yoda will want to pump him for information-hell, a stated objective of theirs was to capture Dooku alive from early on in the war, and they tried quite a bit. Yoda came close to redeeming Dooku on Vjun, he could quite probably succeed if he had Dooku a captive.
And it's LOGICAL for a head of a democratic state to demand one of the guardians of peace and justice decapitate a helpless prisoner of war?
Moreover, for this idea to be plausible, how would Palpatine know that
Dooku would be left in a helpless position where Anakin could kill him at his leisure? It seems just as likely Anakin could've cut Dooku down in the actual duel

When did he tell him not to hurt Anakin? To get captured was in the plan, but this does not usually involve realizing your opponent is a bit more than you could handle when you provoke them to using the Dark Side, along with losing your hands.
If things went according to plan, It wouldn't have left Dooku with absolutely no way to defend himself at all. It's also said Palpatine has 'promised to intervene in the unlikely event Skywalker gain the upper hand' and Dooku doesn't realize his master's real agenda, etc etc.
Again: Since when was Dooku ordered not to harm Anakin? Palpatine pretty much told Dooku if Anakin ended up an ex-Skywalker, it just meant he's not strong enough, and given what we know of Palpatine's draconian training methods with Maul, this doesn't seem very far fetched



and in the latter, I don't recall Yoda fighting Dooku with Djem So or using anakin's physical power that was to paraphrase, costing Dooku all his energy to defend against.
Also, do you remember Dooku in his cockpit when he was fleeing the battle? He was completely exhausted after what happened with Yoda.



OBi-wan attempts to hurl Durge back, Durge rocks on his heels and laughs
Anakin attempts to force push Durge, Durge is sent flying across a room into a wall.
And again: Notice when Anakin and Obi-wan both force push one another, Obi-wan is hit quite a bit harder. As far as I'm aware, we've never seen what happens when two opposing force pushes are brought together like that in any other circumstance. Is there another instance, I'm curious to ask?


OH, it's a good thing that the points I'm bringing up don't contradict either, then, Nai. Considering, what Chee said about narrative and internal thoughts, what Anakin and Dooku feel by the end of the scene with one another and how the scene describes what Dooku is feeling, rather than the moves involved?

So, Nai, if you want to shun the novel? Go ahead, but at least be consistent, because there's not anything supporting a plan in the movie.
Canonically there is a plan, though, and that's not disputable.