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I've got a scenario for any and all of you who beleive in the realms of Heaven and Hell...



Let's say that you, being a good Christian, Jew, Muslim, etc. follower of God end up in Heaven, to stay for all eternity, and be with God.


But, someone you love dearly, more than anyone else on Earth (your lover, your mother, your father, brother, best freind, etc.) ended up in Hell ....



You ask God to forgive them, and bring that person with you in Heaven, but he says No. That they had thier chance on Earth, and now they are damned to an Eternity in Hell, while you are here with God in the Glory of Heaven.




What would you do?


How would you feel ?

I'd eat a donut.

A serious answer would be nice...

Originally posted by Goddess Kali
I've got a scenario for any and all of you who beleive in the realms of Heaven and Hell...



Let's say that you, being a good Christian, Jew, Muslim, etc. follower of God end up in Heaven, to stay for all eternity, and be with God.


But, someone you love dearly, more than anyone else on Earth (your lover, your mother, your father, brother, best freind, etc.) ended up in Hell ....



You ask God to forgive them, and bring that person with you in Heaven, but he says No. That they had thier chance on Earth, and now they are damned to an Eternity in Hell, while you are here with God in the Glory of Heaven.




What would you do?


How would you feel ?

God would forgive the person, and release them from hell.

Well if I did believe I would choose to go to hell and suffer with my loved one.

Originally posted by PITT_HAPPENS
Well if I did believe I would choose to go to hell and suffer with my loved one.

But according to Christian mythology, god could not let even one of his saints suffer. God would have no choice but forgive everyone and empty hell.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
But according to Christian mythology, god could not let even one of his saints suffer. God would have no choice but forgive everyone and empty hell.

Its not that he has no choice, it is what he is going to do. Revelations describe that great lake of fire that everyone is thrown in to and in most modern bibles it says they will be there for eternity. However the world translated as eternity was translated elsewhere in the Bible as an Age upon Ages.

eternal punishment," the topic of the "unpardonable sin" is usually raised. The "unpardonable sin" is a reference to blasphemy against the Holy spirit. This sin is mentioned in Mark's Gospel:



On the surface, this Scripture appears to say, in a very straightforward manner, that there is no forgiveness for blaspheming the Holy Spirit. However, an accurate English translation of the underlying Greek text and comparison to the parallel account in Matthew 12:31-32 significantly changes the meaning of this passage:





As the literal translation of Mark 3:28-30 shows, blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven "to the age" and those who blaspheme God's Spirit will be subject to "age-lasting condemnation." Matthew's account fully supports this, stating that those who speak against the Holy Spirit won't have forgiveness in the current AGE (before the establishment of the kingdom of God on earth) or in the AGE TO COME (when Yeshua/Christ if you prefer reigns from Zion). However, the prospect for forgiveness after this time period is not addressed. The implication of specifying the two time periods where forgiveness won't be possible is that, after this time passes, forgiveness may become available.

It is the biblical reference to purgatory.

you rock Gav

Have to put four years worth of study to use somewhere!

Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
Have to put four years worth of study to use somewhere!



I like to see religion potrayed the way you and other less extreme members do. Sure we disagree about it, but I could imagine being your neighbour, whereas SOME PEOPLE, not so much

Originally posted by inimalist


I like to see religion potrayed the way you and other less extreme members do. Sure we disagree about it, but I could imagine being your neighbour, whereas SOME PEOPLE, not so much

Nice blue text there, yeah religion is a great thing to talk about, aslong as you dont let it get too heated and start fighting over it.

Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
Nice blue text there, yeah religion is a great thing to talk about, aslong as you dont let it get too heated and start fighting over it.

haha

so, my question to you is, am I ****ed?

I've in fact eaten part of the bible (the books of Timothy stole my name), and will probably never repent.

Is God just going to laugh at me as I go to the lake of fire, or is the fact that I am a good, kind person (or we can pretend I a for the sake of argument) going to be worth anything?

Well, I don't think chewing up and eating a bible is something a good kind person would do...that could really upset allot of people. I know the whole "its just a book" thing will no doubt come up here but its what it symbolises, which is very important, like when people invade a nation they destroy its symbols to break the people.

However, sadly I don't have God's ear when it comes to judgement so I couldn't tell you what will happen to you...if revelations is true.

Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
Its not that he has no choice, ...

What I mean is: if god did not free the people from hell, then the saint, who are filled with love, will suffer. That is what I mean by "no choice". What I should have said is that god would not have any good choice.

God's love is infinite and perfect, but also is his justice.

The ones going to hell are the ones who have made the decision to be away from God's love. We are able to make this decision only within our lifetime, after death you can't change your decision. God in his perfect justice gives you according to the path you have chosen in life and according to what have been given to you.

Figures of fire, punishment, etc are often used to describe hell, but nobody has been there and returned and then tell us about it. My personnel belief, and I can be wrong, is that is a state in which your soul is trapped in your egoism, your egocentrism, your lack of love, hate etc. that prevents you to be part of the true happiness that come only from God's love.

God doesn't keep people in hell because he is tiranic or he doesn't listen to our prayers, but because his justice is perfect, and every one of us is responsible of the decisions we make.

Originally posted by darkfan76
God's love is infinite and perfect, but also is his justice.

The ones going to hell are the ones who have made the decision to be away from God's love. We are able to make this decision only within our lifetime, after death you can't change your decision. God in his perfect justice gives you according to the path you have chosen in life and according to what have been given to you.

Figures of fire, punishment, etc are often used to describe hell, but nobody has been there and returned and then tell us about it. My personnel belief, and I can be wrong, is that is a state in which your soul is trapped in your egoism, your egocentrism, your lack of love, hate etc. that prevents you to be part of the true happiness that come only from God's love.

God doesn't keep people in hell because he is tiranic or he doesn't listen to our prayers, but because his justice is perfect, and every one of us is responsible of the decisions we make.

Then once the saints are with god and filled with love, how will they feel about those who are suffering, even if it is just because of a choice they made? If the saints are truly filled with love, then they will suffer for those who suffer. That is how love works; someone who is happy cannot be happy is someone else is sad.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
What I mean is: if god did not free the people from hell, then the saint, who are filled with love, will suffer. That is what I mean by "no choice". What I should have said is that god would not have any good choice.


Those in hell will stay there, not because God is not merciful, but because they don't want to be saved. Asking for God's forgiveness is an act of love , which they are not capable of.

I think the idea of hell is terrible.The idea that those who don't belive in the big man are going to hell is ridiculous.A Buddhist monk who has lived in peaceful solitude for all his life will burn in hell,yet a child molester or murderer can commit terrible crimes and ask for forgiveness and he becomes better than the Buddhist monk?Because he fears god?

Clearly such a god would at best,be considered delusional.Christians think they are safe from the terrors of hell,but to other religions this is only a fleeting delusion.If your Christian,Muslim fundementalist will claim your going to hell.If your a Christian,everyone else goes to hell,etc.It doesn't matter what you belive because your never safe.According to some other religous tradition you are going to burn in hell no matter how good your are.

I understand why people belive in hell.It justifies that bad people are punished for their earthly crimes.It falls apart when we look at good people who don't follow a certain religous tradition still will sufer.It's as if a god put guilt by association on everyone else besides his followers because he is too lazy to sort through the good in people with other belifes.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Then once the saints are with god and filled with love, how will they feel about those who are suffering, even if it is just because of a choice they made? If the saints are truly filled with love, then they will suffer for those who suffer. That is how love works; someone who is happy cannot be happy is someone else is sad.

Perhaps a little sad, Who knows? But they will respect the decision of the condemed, as God does, but What about the infinite joy of being with God?

About "If the saints are truly filled with love, then they will suffer for those who suffer" is just your opinion, your own conclusion. Respectable, but only that.

"That is how love works; someone who is happy cannot be happy is someone else is sad" I guess you realize that this is only your opinion, since you assume that the happiness in Heaven is like the happiness, . as we know it right now.

Truth is that we do not really know heaven or hell are. Haven't been there, We all have is figures and metaphores, since eternity,infinity are ideas that are unimaginable for us right now, finite beings and limited in time.

Originally posted by mr.smiley
I think the idea of hell is terrible.The idea that those who don't belive in the big man are going to hell is ridiculous.A Buddhist monk who has lived in peaceful solitude for all his life will burn in hell,yet a child molester or murderer can commit terrible crimes and ask for forgiveness and he becomes better than the Buddhist monk?Because he fears god?

Clearly such a god would at best,be considered delusional.Christians think they are safe from the terrors of hell,but to other religions this is only a fleeting delusion.If your Christian,Muslim fundementalist will claim your going to hell.If your a Christian,everyone else goes to hell,etc.It doesn't matter what you belive because your never safe.According to some other religous tradition you are going to burn in hell no matter how good your are.

I understand why people belive in hell.It justifies that bad people are punished for their earthly crimes.It falls apart when we look at good people who don't follow a certain religous tradition still will sufer.It's as if a god put guilt by association on everyone else besides his followers because he is too lazy to sort through the good in people with other belifes.

Am I a Christian and I can assure that the Christian belief is that non-Christians can be saved and that not all Christians will be saved.

Dont judge Christianity because of the fundamentalists.

I understand not all Christian belive this.Most actualy get quiet about the subject and say,'only God can judge'.

I didn't exclude this to Christianity.I pin pointed to many religions.This point can be debated in almost any religion group.I think it would be better to adopt the idea that all good people,regardless of faith will be honored in some sort of after life.

I personally belive in a God,or some sort of force that governs everything.While I would never claim its nature could truly be known to man,I belive everyone of us 'IS' the divine conscience.I belive we are all the mind of god.Living out experinces so this divine nature can understand itself better.At the end,all will be made over perfectly and we will experince oneness in perfect harmony.

That's just my belife though.I'm not saying it's right or trying to convert people or attempting to make political gain.It just makes the most sense to me.

Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
Well, I don't think chewing up and eating a bible is something a good kind person would do...that could really upset allot of people. I know the whole "its just a book" thing will no doubt come up here but its what it symbolises, which is very important, like when people invade a nation they destroy its symbols to break the people.

However, sadly I don't have God's ear when it comes to judgement so I couldn't tell you what will happen to you...if revelations is true.

I know, its not something I would do now, but I was in my ragey teenage years

I hear what you are saying, which is very humble of you

Originally posted by darkfan76
Perhaps a little sad, Who knows? But they will respect the decision of the condemed, as God does, but What about the infinite joy of being with God?

About "If the saints are truly filled with love, then they will suffer for those who suffer" is just your opinion, your own conclusion. Respectable, but only that.

"That is how love works; someone who is happy cannot be happy is someone else is sad" I guess you realize that this is only your opinion, since you assume that the happiness in Heaven is like the happiness, . as we know it right now.

Truth is that we do not really know heaven or hell are. Haven't been there, We all have is figures and metaphores, since eternity,infinity are ideas that are unimaginable for us right now, finite beings and limited in time.

Then they will not be filled with love, or they will suffer.

To those of you who actually beleive in Heaven and Hell


Thank you for NOT answering my initial question.....very cowardly of you guys

Originally posted by Goddess Kali
I've got a scenario for any and all of you who beleive in the realms of Heaven and Hell...



Let's say that you, being a good Christian, Jew, Muslim, etc. follower of God end up in Heaven, to stay for all eternity, and be with God.


But, someone you love dearly, more than anyone else on Earth (your lover, your mother, your father, brother, best freind, etc.) ended up in Hell ....



You ask God to forgive them, and bring that person with you in Heaven, but he says No. That they had thier chance on Earth, and now they are damned to an Eternity in Hell, while you are here with God in the Glory of Heaven.




What would you do?


How would you feel ?



To those of you who beleive in Heaven and Hell, quit avoiding the question, and answer it.



How could you POSSIBLY be happy in Heaven knowing that the person you love most is in Hell ???

Originally posted by debbiejo
I'd eat a donut.


I would eat a donut too.........then I would stay with God. He would erase my memories of that lover, Heaven is supposed to be bright and cheery, so I would not remember that person. So obviously I would feel nothing.

Originally posted by darkfan76
Perhaps a little sad, Who knows? But they will respect the decision of the condemed, as God does, but What about the infinite joy of being with God?



thats sick, very sick

you would ignore your mother or father, brothers, wife all burning in torment in eternity for the love of God? "sigh"

Originally posted by Charmed_Phoebe
I would eat a donut too.........then I would stay with God. He would erase my memories of that lover, Heaven is supposed to be bright and cheery, so I would not remember that person. So obviously I would feel nothing.


To erase your memory of that person is to hide the Truth. Since when does God hide the truth from someone, when the Bible preaches about the value of truth all the time?


Secondly, if you could be happy despite the fact that your loved one is suffering for eternity, then you are selfish. That happiness is selfish, that "bright and cheeriness" is superficial, and that's not the kind of Heaven I ever want to enter. A "fantasy" world disconnected from the people who took care of me in Life.

Originally posted by darkfan76
Perhaps a little sad, Who knows? But they will respect the decision of the condemed, as God does, but What about the infinite joy of being with God?



Like I said above, that is very selfish. You care more about your own happiness and connection with this God, then someone else's suffering.

To love another person is to care more for thier happiness and suffering than your own. If you care more about your own rewards and happiness than a loved one's suffering, then you never truly loved that person.

Secondly, how can you possibly have "infinite joy" with God if your mother, father, brother, sister, son, daughter, or loved one is burning in Hell forever ?



Originally posted by darkfan76
About "If the saints are truly filled with love, then they will suffer for those who suffer" is just your opinion, your own conclusion. Respectable, but only that.



You can truly be happy knowing that your mother is being tortured in another world for the rest of eternity, and that that is what God condemned her to because of her life choices ?


You would want to spend Eternity with a God who didn't allow your mother or father, or beloved one, into Heaven, but instead judged them to Hell where they will suffer forever ?

I would pull up my middle finger at this God




Originally posted by darkfan76
"That is how love works; someone who is happy cannot be happy is someone else is sad" I guess you realize that this is only your opinion, since you assume that the happiness in Heaven is like the happiness, . as we know it right now.


Again, how can you possibly be happy in Heaven when someone you love dearly is being tortured in Hell for all eternity ?


Secondly, if you CAN be happy despite the fact that your loved one is suffering forever, then that makes you a truly selfish person, simply because you only care about your own happiness, and the other person's suffering means nothing to you.





Originally posted by darkfan76
Truth is that we do not really know heaven or hell are. Haven't been there, We all have is figures and metaphores, since eternity,infinity are ideas that are unimaginable for us right now, finite beings and limited in time.


But we do know that according to the mythology of modern Monotheism, Heaven is Joy and Hell is Suffering.


How can you be happy knowing that your loved one is suffering forever ? You never really answered my question, or atleast, I don't feel you have answered it honestly.

I feel you have been beating around the bush.

someone who can be content and happy in heaven and with Gods "love" when they know their wife and daughter/sons are in eternal torment and actually think they can stay happy for all eternity are not human, they are very less than human, they are less than the dribbling cow pat stuck to the bottom of a farmers boot

if this is God, then he can go **** himself with all the divine power he wants

Originally posted by Burning thought
someone who can be content and happy in heaven and with Gods "love" when they know their wife and daughter/sons are in eternal torment and actually think they can stay happy for all eternity are not human, they are very less than human, they are less than the dribbling cow pat stuck to the bottom of a farmers shoe

if this is God, then he can go **** himself with all the divine power he wants





Coudn't have said it better myself.

I wouldn't.

And how could god of ever loved lucifer knowing he would spend eternity in hell. They were best buds once.

Originally posted by debbiejo
I wouldn't.

And how could god of ever loved lucifer knowing he would spend eternity in hell. They were best buds once.


God and Lucifer were once Gay Lovers


Read "Lucifer's Halo" a Joseph Micheal Linsner Graphic Novel, and see the TRUTH !

Everybodys gay in your world......

This is why the concept of Christianities hell (along with other faiths) is severly flawed, and at best a shallow attempt to scare people without considerable thought into the subject matter.Alot of these ideas were being brought into the light when people didn't have the power to question the authority that was making the rules.Today we can openly question these loop holes and expose some very basic moral and ethical issues that surface when we are confrotned with the idea of hell.

Originally posted by mr.smiley
This is why the concept of Christianities hell (along with other faiths) is severly flawed, and at best a shallow attempt to scare people without considerable thought into the subject matter.Alot of these ideas were being brought into the light when people didn't have the power to question the authority that was making the rules.Today we can openly question these loop holes and expose some very basic moral and ethical issues that surface when we are confrotned with the idea of hell.

True True True, too bad no Christian or Muslim has honestly answered the question yet.

I guess this is one of these questions they just can't answer, because it would force them to open up to the probability that they are wrong.

Originally posted by Goddess Kali
True True True, too bad no Christian or Muslim has honestly answered the question yet.

I guess this is one of these questions they just can't answer, because it would force them to open up to the probability that they are wrong.


The lack of them answering the question gives proof that the rules of who gets into heaven are wrong,or at least extreamely flawed.It basicly comes down to the nature of God.Either he isn't all loving,or he is too lazy to sort out the good people from other faiths and sends them to hell for not beliving in him or disobeying his law.Which would be like a sick game of cosmic Russian Roulette.Choose a faith and hopefully it's the right one!If you choose wrong be prepared for an eternity of suffering.

Originally posted by mr.smiley
The lack of them answering the question gives proof that the rules of who gets into heaven are wrong,or at least extreamely flawed.It basicly comes down to the nature of God.Either he isn't all loving,or he is too lazy to sort out the good people from other faiths and sends them to hell for not beliving in him or disobeying his law.Which would be like a sick game of cosmic Russian Roulette.Choose a faith and hopefully it's the right one!If you choose wrong be prepared for an eternity of suffering.


I guess that is basically it. This is one of those "I have to ignore it" questions....It's been almost a week since I started this Thread, and so far not one Christian or Muslim have given me an extensive honest and direct answer.

Any Christian who has answered it, has just been beating around the bush

sigh. its really not very hard. god is omnibenevolent. reguardless of the newer explanations of hell being the PERSON'S choice to stay away from god and enter hell. if god truly is perfectly loving and all powerful.
he would disreguard man's supposed CHOICE to stay away from him and go to hell and use his power to make him/her enter heaven as a person who loves and knows better. his perfect love would not allow men to suffer reguardless of their foolish choices. furthermore, christians have made the point fairly clear that IN hell, people will mourn forever their choice to turn away from christ. they will hope and ask for forgiveness. and they will TRULY want to enter heaven and accept christ. why is it THEN that god's OMNIBENEVOLANCE/perfect love will ALLOW them to suffer when they have learnt their mistake and conciously asked for forgivnes why THEN will god not take them out of hell. if not for the sake of malice, punishment,getting what one DESERVES or egoism. i do not believe in{nor does the english language by the way} of any TRUE LOVE , let alone OMNI love/benevolance that would let the person continue to suffer forever or a very long time if a person does not want to.

i mean if a kid u loved very much wanted to run away from home and never come back MAYBE{its illogical but if we suppose the neo christian viewpoint to be true which blames the person for being in hell and not god for creating it and the criteria for entering it} youd RESPECT his/her decision to go even though u knew it was bad for them and knowingly close ur doors to them. howver, if u still retained the type of love u had before, and the child learning her/his lesson from the streets comes back and BEGS at your doorstep to let them in. will your love NOT then make you open your doors for them? its impossible to not open your doors for them if you love them and specially if your love them PERFECTLY. so the idea of people being responsible for going and STAYING in hell is also wrong unless you {assuming this already WRONG assumption can sumhow been taken as right/true for the sake of argument}a person is so full of mailce/hatred for god that he CONTINUOUSLY chooses to be in hell of his own will knowing all truths and still staying away from god. all others who regret their decision in the least are allowed into haven by a benevolant god.

Originally posted by Goddess Kali
I've got a scenario for any and all of you who beleive in the realms of Heaven and Hell...



Let's say that you, being a good Christian, Jew, Muslim, etc. follower of God end up in Heaven, to stay for all eternity, and be with God.


But, someone you love dearly, more than anyone else on Earth (your lover, your mother, your father, brother, best freind, etc.) ended up in Hell ....



You ask God to forgive them, and bring that person with you in Heaven, but he says No. That they had thier chance on Earth, and now they are damned to an Eternity in Hell, while you are here with God in the Glory of Heaven.




What would you do?


How would you feel ?

I find it hard to put myself in that position. I find it hard to release such scenario, because I have troubles believing the literal ideas of God, Heaven and Hell.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
I find it hard to put myself in that position. I find it hard to release such scenario, because I have troubles believing the literal ideas of God, Heaven and Hell.


I've had so much trouble beleiving in the literal ideas of God, Heaven, and Hell that I turned away from Christianity all together.


This is one question that I don't think Christian doctrine has ever had answered, which may explain why Christians cannot answer this for anyone who wants to know.

i think christinaity is jsut ridiculous, i dont know much of the other religions but from Christianity it has so many holes in the stories that its a joke that anyone believes it

Originally posted by Burning thought
i think christinaity is jsut ridiculous, i dont know much of the other religions but from Christianity it has so many holes in the stories that its a joke that anyone believes it


Masses of people beleive in it , cuz we're taught it from childhood. When you tell a child enuff times that an imaginary old white man lives in the sky, they will beleive it.

Theres is no Hell just eternal destruction, ie dead forever.

oblivion would be far better than a hell, and to me better than a heaven under the rule of a God, infinite peace

OBLIVION IS BLISSSSSSdroolio

wow, I cannot believe this thread was created almost two weeks ago, and not one Christian or Muslim can give me a straight answer....

sigh. wellif tey started giving you STRAIGHT answers, they wouldnt be muslims or christians would they?

I was hoping I can have this thread closed, so I can remake it....there's another major point I want to add, but it has to be an introductory point.


Moderators, since this thread is not even being answered, would it be okay to close it, so I can remake it in a better fashion ? Perhaps in a more contained thread, which will enhance my question ?


Thanks

PLEASE CLOSE THREAD


No one is answering the question anyway, and I want to remake it.

Originally posted by Goddess Kali
PLEASE CLOSE THREAD


No one is answering the question anyway, and I want to remake it.

I guess no one will listen to you.

Nah, actually I want this thread to remain open, I only asked for it to be closed to remake another thread, but that was moved to the Hell topic, so this thread remains.

Originally posted by Goddess Kali
Nah, actually I want this thread to remain open, I only asked for it to be closed to remake another thread, but that was moved to the Hell topic, so this thread remains.

Then it is time to close it.