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Did God create the universe, or did the universe create God?

If God created the universe, what created God?

If the Universe created God, what created the Universe?

Everything has to have a beginning right?

This is a religion based question Not asking for the evolutionary path

Unless they are connected of course oh

Well, no, I don't see that everything needs a beginning. There are at least concepts that have no beginning.

Every time I try think of something without a beginning I get a headache

It has to start somehow

err...i think that belongs into the philosophy section of this forum..

Originally posted by RogerRamjet
err...i think that belongs into the philosophy section of this forum..

there is one on the philosophy question. This one has a Religious touch.Originally posted by C. C. Cowgirl
Every time I try think of something without a beginning I get a headache

It has to start somehow

You state that as if it was a fact, but it might not be.

How about the chicken is the egg.

Originally posted by Bardock42
there is one on the philosophy question. This one has a Religious touch.

You state that as if it was a fact, but it might not be.

It might not and it might

Originally posted by debbiejo
How about the chicken is the egg.

Really? shock

How would that work? hmm

Originally posted by C. C. Cowgirl
It has to start somehow Nope, not really. If I show you a circle, where does that start?

Originally posted by Mindship
Nope, not really. If I show you a circle, where does that start?

Haha, there, I got you

Originally posted by Bardock42
Haha, there, I got you Hey, wait a sec ...
That circle's been corrupted with a dot, a line and a "There." Doesn't count.

Originally posted by C. C. Cowgirl
Every time I try think of something without a beginning I get a headache

It has to start somehow

Originally posted by inimalist

2) The brain

Our brains are not perfect. Even in the most basic visual scenes, your brain is making HUGE generalizations and assumptions about the world around it in order to filter down the incredible ammount of stimuli information comming in at any one time. One of these automatic generalizing processes is the idea of cause and effect. Because we live in a world where everything that happens does have a very obvious cause (the level of reality where Newtonian physics hold) there is no need for our brain to have the ability to concieve of events without a cause in the classical Newtonian sense. This skill is what can lead people to believe in ghosts or other supernatural phenomena to explain events they can't understand, since our brains NEED that explanation. In fact, the more intense the effect, the more signifigant of a cause there must be, which is the root of conspiracy theories.

There are 2 major reasons for this:

a) Evolution: Since there are no "causeless" events in the environment that our anscestors came from, there would never have been a selection pressure for creatures that could comprehend causeless things. Also, it is easy to see why a creature that saw very signifigant causes in trivial events could have a higher survival hance than those who are less reactive. If every time some proto mammal heard a twig break behind it, it runs assuming it is a predator, that mammal will have a huge advantage over one that decides to investigate the sound.

b) Neuroplasticity: When a human is born, they have far more neurons in their brains than are necessary. What happens, is various sets of neurons release various hormones that allow other neurons to make the proper connections for brains to work properly. These hormones are released in response to incomming stimuli from the world around the developing child. An amazing thing to note is that, even though this process is unique to each individual, the fact that the world around us is so constant allows each of our brains to arrange themselves in VERY VERY similar ways. Again, since there are no causeless events in the world, there is no need for any neural connections to form that could interpret events without a cause. A proof of this whole thing comes from an experiment done with kittens. For the first part of the kitten's life, it was reared in an environment that lacked horizontal lines. Once the brain had finished developing, and the kitten was placed into a natural environment, they were incapable of processing horizontal stimuli. Moral of the story, if it isn't something that our brains have learned how to process from the environment they have been previously exposed to, there is no way we can immagine it.

Originally posted by Mindship
Nope, not really. If I show you a circle, where does that start?

To create a circle you have to drop your pencil somewhere

Originally posted by C. C. Cowgirl
To create a circle you have to drop your pencil somewhere Coupla things...

1. I didn't say anything about creating the circle; just if I showed you one, already drawn. Where is the beginning?

2. Remember in geometry, when your teacher made a dot on the blackboard and said, "This represents a point"? This point -- as a concept -- is dimensionless, while the chalk dot obviously wasn't. The point (pun intended) was to focus on the concept, not the literal depiction. Same thing with the circle. The drawing of a circle is only a representation of the concept. In a circle -- as a pure geometric concept -- where does it start?

Either way, I was more thinking of the Rational Numbers for example. Where do those start?

Originally posted by C. C. Cowgirl
Did God create the universe, or did the universe create God?

If God created the universe, what created God?

If the Universe created God, what created the Universe?

Everything has to have a beginning right?

This is a religion based question Not asking for the evolutionary path

Unless they are connected of course oh

Man created god.

The universe was never created. The universe has always been in one form or another for all time.

No, according to Christian mythology, god does not have a beginning.

Circle...

I knew it, I knew it. Everything we've ever known is only a circle...

Cycles, cyclical, repeating and expanding, endings, new beginnings, never ending, eternal.

Originally posted by debbiejo
Circle...

I knew it, I knew it. Everything we've ever known is only a circle...

Cycles, cyclical, repeating and expanding, endings, new beginnings, never ending, eternal.

You had the same horror trip as me?

Originally posted by C. C. Cowgirl
Did God create the universe, or did the universe create God?

If God created the universe, what created God?

If the Universe created God, what created the Universe?

Everything has to have a beginning right?

This is a religion based question Not asking for the evolutionary path

Unless they are connected of course oh

Depends who you ask.

Abrahamic religions: The universe was created by God, God always was. Time is N/A to Him.

Hinduism: The universe is with in the womb of the sustainer Goddess. (Can't remember her name)

Taoism: They subscribe to the cosmic egg belief, which is similar to the big bang theory.

Originally posted by Bardock42
You had the same horror trip as me?


Yeah, except I never smoked anything.


But doesn't it make since though?

Originally posted by debbiejo



Yeah, except I never smoked anything.


But doesn't it make since though? It's sense. And it does in a way. And you told me you smoked, liar.

Hey, I didn't need to smoke to have that trip. And I never inhaled....never.

President Bill C-Clinton

*Vishnu*

Originally posted by debbiejo
Hey, I didn't need to smoke to have that trip. And I never inhaled....never.

President Bill C-Clinton

Biography lends to death a new terror.

- Oscar Wilde

The idea of an indwelling god who is more from a natural process of the universe can be traced back to the LOGOS.You can actualy translate the word,"word" from the Bible into "LOGOS".

I reaching back from memory so my explantion will be a little rusty so pleas forgive me.

The Greek idea of LOGOS,is the idea of all ideas.To put it briefly,it was the first thought.The first breathe of conscienceness to ever exisist.It was from that empty void,that the universe flooded into existence from nothing.What was before that is unknowable,and is the true nature of God which we don't not know, yet strive to obtain.

So if you agree with the philosophy of LOGOS,the universe was actualy the result of the first spark of conscienceness that came from the unknowable.

"What came first, the egg or the chicken? Who cares, who gives a hoot!"

Sorry....thats from a musical I was in when I was in second grade.....

Originally posted by SelphieT
"What came first, the egg or the chicken? Who cares, who gives a hoot!"

Sorry....thats from a musical I was in when I was in second grade.....

Piss off you bloody wanker.





Sorry, that was from a movie I watched some time ago.

The chicken (or two) came first because you need two to create a fertilised egg. Where the chickens came from is the problem.

Either they were put there by God or a little big bang happened in a swamp and accidentally created them

What is a chicken?

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
What is a chicken?

That right there is the real question.

but where did god come from?

Originally posted by Jbill311
but where did god come from?

Man invented god.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Piss off you bloody wanker.





Sorry, that was from a movie I watched some time ago.

Oh you.

Well....if anything, I'd say the chicken came first, because....eggs are weaker.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Answer my question and you will know the answer to the big question. God?

Originally posted by PITT_HAPPENS
God?

Nooooo

A chicken is a bird. What is a bird? A bird is a descendant of a dinosaur. What is a dinosaur? A dinosaur is a type of reptile. What is a reptile? A reptile is...

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Nooooo

A chicken is a bird. What is a bird? A bird is a descendant of a dinosaur. What is a dinosaur? A dinosaur is a type of reptile. What is a reptile? A reptile is... a chicken?

Originally posted by PITT_HAPPENS
a chicken?

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
us?

Originally posted by debbiejo
us?

If you keep going back in time, what do you get? What was the first type of life?

Nothingness?

Well, the first chicken certainly came out of an egg.

But I don't think that's the question really. It's a metaphor.

Also, this one is not about that philosophical dilemma, it's about God.


Jesus. Someone read the initial post beside me.

Originally posted by debbiejo
Nothingness?

No, you eventually come to a one celled bacteria. Now ask what is an egg? An egg is just one cell. Because the chicken is far down the evolutionary line from a one celled organism, it is much later then the egg which is a one celled organism. Therefore, the egg came first.

and god said let there be eggs.....

Yeah, you two, get your own social thread in the OTF. Where you belong.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Yeah, you two, get your own social thread in the OTF. Where you belong.

I was being serious. The thread starter never said that the egg came from the chicken.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
I was being serious. The thread starter never said that the egg came from the chicken. As if you had read what the thread starter said.

Originally posted by Bardock42
As if you had read what the thread starter said.

Did you read my first post? I stayed away from evolution then, but now the thread is on it's death bed, so I wanted to make my point.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Did you read my first post? I stayed away from evolution then, but now the thread is on it's death bed, so I wanted to make my point. Then don't say stupid thing like "The thread starter never said that the egg came from the chicken"

Of course she didn't. The thread is not about that.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Then don't say stupid thing like "The thread starter never said that the egg came from the chicken"

Of course she didn't. The thread is not about that.

I was technically correct.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
I was technically correct.

But you agree that it was a stupid thing to say in this situation?

Originally posted by Bardock42
But you agree that it was a stupid thing to say in this situation?
No, I do not agree. I think it was a clever way of getting around the classic question. However, I have to admit it was not my original idea.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
No, I do not agree. I think it was a clever way of getting around the classic question. However, I have to admit it was not my original idea.

I meant the "The thread starter never said that the egg came from the chicken"


I agree with what you stated before (though in a more intelligent form) and have said it multiple times in the appropriate thread.

Originally posted by Bardock42
I meant the "The thread starter never said that the egg came from the chicken"


I agree with what you stated before (though in a more intelligent form) and have said it multiple times in the appropriate thread.

Oh! I thought you were insulting me (as normal ).

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Oh! I thought you were insulting me (as normal ). I was. You were doing something irritating again.

Originally posted by Bardock42
I was. You were doing something irritating again.

You need to work on that. Be more tolerant, that is...

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
You need to work on that. Be more tolerant, that is... No

Originally posted by Bardock42
No

That is something irritating from you again.

Man created god.

Simple.

Bardock and shaky........

Originally posted by debbiejo
Bardock and shaky........ http://www.audiosparx.com/sa/play/port_lofi.cfm/sound_iid.53495

Doesn't matter. They're both delicious.

Originally posted by C. C. Cowgirl
Did God create the universe, or did the universe create God?

If God created the universe, what created God?

If the Universe created God, what created the Universe?

Everything has to have a beginning right?

This is a religion based question Not asking for the evolutionary path

Unless they are connected of course oh

God is Universe.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
God is Universe.

Is that the same as "The Universe is God?"

Yes, we are all one.

Originally posted by debbiejo
Yes, we are all one. Not a very nice thought at all, now is it?

Originally posted by C. C. Cowgirl
Did God create the universe, or did the universe create God?

If God created the universe, what created God?

If the Universe created God, what created the Universe?

Everything has to have a beginning right?

This is a religion based question Not asking for the evolutionary path

Unless they are connected of course oh

Everything material has a beginning. But God is a Spirit; hence, He is exempt from this axiom.

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Everything material has a beginning. But God is a Spirit; hence, He is exempt from this axiom.

So, sense we have a soul, and a soul is spirit, we do not have a beginning.

You think that god is a getaround to the creation of the universe?
Complicated thing emerge late in the scheme of things because many simple things must compile and combine into a complex thing. You are suggesting that god started the compiling, but for that to happen, god would have had to be incredibly complex to start with.