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2 Brutes of men 2 very agressive and very skilled swords men and strong in the Darkside Both have had excrusiating pain to deal with who wins


Duel 1 : Saber

Duel 2 : Force

Duel 3 : Brawl

im not sure right now cause the way to defeat sion is to out-wit him and i dont know if bane would try and do that

I am playing KOTOR 2 at the moment so I will be eager to assess Sion.

To my pleasant surprise he had a Scottish accent.

We really can't judge Sion's saber skills too well. He is likely very good as his ability with the Force and his will is so strong he can reknit his entire body and keep it together. That's very very impressive. But he's also a leader of a sect of Sith dedicated to assassination and attack from the shadows; it's seldom he likely even has to do an honest duel, really. I'm leaning a bit towards Bane in saber ability, but I'm not sure it really matters. The upper limit of Sion's resistance is never stated, and he only ever dies when he is broken of hope; never is he torn apart or otherwise destroyed. It's possible Bane could trap the Sith Lord, or perhaps shoot him into space, but it wouldn't be a straight duel in that sense.

Another issue would be if SIion could be too damaged to regenerate...I'm skeptical he could repair himself if he were decapitated, to be honest

That is a possibility. Unfortunately no background material covers his ability in depth, and it's never done in-game so it's hard to tell. We can't even really see the effects of the damage done by the Exile's saber in the cutscenes, though we know that Sion's body is literally shattered and crushed all throughout and that he's keeping it together through force of will.

Since the ability makes for a serious assumption on either end, I ride the fence on most of his battles. We simply just don't know enough.

The problem I've always had with Sion is his ability seems a gameplay mechanic:
"Uh, oh, my hitpoints are gone...better restore them suddenly!"

I don't buy Sion's going to be able to reassemble himself if he's cut to bits, or climb out of a Mustafar lava pit

It certainly seems a gameplay mechanic, but the information you find on the Harbinger supports that he does indeed survive amounts of stress and damage that Bane can't really hold a candle to. Lava? You're right, I doubt he can take an Anakin bath and come out looking cute.

Well, in fairness, given Bane's skill, Sion would have to do the damage...Sion can indeed survive a lot to hold himself together, but facing someone like Bane...or to overkill, Luke, Palpatine, Yoda or Kun? His chances ain't too rosy

Have you ever seen the final battle in Rob Roy?

Best movie sword fight ever.
Have I ever mentioned I love Liam Neeson?

He told me to tell you to stop stalking him.

good battle

I'll stop when he wins the Oscar he deserves.

Sidenote: I think he'll do so in 2009....Steven Spielberg director Abraham Lincoln movie with Liam as Abe....WIN

But then Tom Hanks will show up and play a some average middle class white guy in an unusual situation and win the Oscar again.

From what I've assessed, Darth Sion's force capability is heavily underestimated. He had every bone in his body broken (Literally, from what the game proclaims) and he has the ability to hold them together. Perpetually. While moving, Lightsaber training, jumping, crouching, speaking, physically harming Traya and killing Jedi after Jedi.

Off Topic/Off the Record: I'd say the Triumvirate are excessively powerful because of three main attributes each Lord holds:

Darth Traya: The ability of masterful manipulation and being able to kill three Jedi masters within seconds.

Darth Nihilus: The ability to drain a planet of it's energy and draining millions (Arguable) in the process.

Darth Sion: Practically invincible except by means of verbal harm. Strong will of the force by holding body structure intact after severe damage.


To swerve back onto topic, the two both possess powers that make them practically unstoppable.

I call a stalemate.

The problem is, all of them were killed by a jedi inferior to Malak and Revan... And Bane learnt from Revan himself by the way.

Originally posted by kamhal
The problem is, all of them were killed by a jedi inferior to Malak and Revan... And Bane learnt from Revan himself by the way.

If this Jedi you claim is so inferior, how was he able to kill three Sith Lords of such great power?

It's very possible that the Exile could kill Revan. Malak most likely would be a mere annoyance to the Exile.

Originally posted by Thousand
If this Jedi you claim is so inferior, how was he able to kill three Sith Lords of such great power?

It's very possible that the Exile could kill Revan. Malak most likely would be a mere annoyance to the Exile.

First of all the exile is a she.

Nihilus was weakened when trying drain her but couldnt because she was a wound in the force.

Sion's saber skill is still an unknown and she convinced him to die we dont know the exact details of how she did that or how close the duel was actually.

Traya is the only one which we can legitimately say she is stronger than. Yet she holds revan with such high esteem and makes comments like him being the heart of the force. m

And dont underestimate malak he was very powerful. his duel with revan on the star forge was an epic one and he was described as nearly unstoppable.

Isnt bane a strong force user? Since he is why would it be difficult to prevent sions body from joining back together again by using the force?

It's called 'plot convenience. Sion was never defeated physically, only mentally. Nihilus lost to the Exile because he weakened himself by trying to drain her, and Traya really didn't strike me as wanting to butcher her student whom she'd trained the entire time just because she's feeling contrary. If anything, Traya indicates that she wants the Exile to live because a) she can be of help to Revan and b) what the Exile thinks and does matters to her.



It's also very possible that Ewoks invented the hyperdrive and are secretly just playing dumb.

But I don't think blind speculation really helps us here; Revan pretty much pissed all over all comers. The Exile was very very good, but certainly not an equal. The Jedi Masters themselves even note that Revan was greater in the Force. And it's something to be said that while the Jedi Masters were able to overcome the Exile, they could not overcome Traya nor could they dominate Revan.

Just a point of contention: Given Traya's rather draconian style, I'd honestly wonder if she didn't fight to her fullest as the Exile's final test...I'm sure she didn't want the Exile to die, but if the exile couldn't defeat Traya how could she face the True Sith Empire with Revan? Traya said the Apprentice must kill her master-or die

Good point. However, I did find it a bit odd that Traya can just floor Sith assassins, cow Sion, cow Atris, and then murder three powerful Jedi masters with as much effort as it takes for me to scratch my chin. And then suddenly the Exile beats her in single combat.

I just find it odd that the Exile would 'suddenly' be that good.

Of course, I still have my suspicions that Darth Nihilus was a shade or doppleganger of the Exile except now canon and Legacy of the Force depictions have trampled the idea. Still, it would explain why Nihilus speaks backwards and his mask gives you the final boost in Force powers.

I think part of it could indeed be the Exile's natural abilities at play, plus her time with Traya. It's clear as a Wound, the Exile's potential is pretty large. I do find it hard to believe Traya would sacrifice herself to an Exile incapable of killing her straight up. Much as she loved her, everything hinged on the Exile's strength

But what gain could Traya get from staying alive while killing the Exile?

I honestly don't think Traya stood to gain anything from that fight one way or the other:

Either the Exile rises above and kills Traya full on so she dies happy and content in her views...or Traya's views were wrong, the Exile dies and Traya likely commits suicide in sheer despair...

Though, personally, I think Traya knew it was very likely the Exile'd kill her. Given how well they knew one another, Traya's force abilities, such as drain would be totally ineffective on the Exile, and and theyd know one another's skills

Originally posted by Darth Hord
First of all the exile is a she.

No, my Exile is a He.



This doesn't disprove Nihilus' power. The fact that he decimated a planet still remains. Plus, there was circumstance as to why Nihilus was defeated. You just said them for me.



The only thing he could do was convince and persuade Sion because he was undefeatable.



Your point being what, exactly?



Yeah, he was forced to drain Republicans of their energy because he was normally weak. He needed outside sources of power to fuel himself. Did Sion? Nihilus? Traya?

Not so much. I didn't see them sucking energy from other life forms to defeat a single opponent. I saw them perform amazing features independently.

Originally posted by Thousand
No, my Exile is a He.
The canon exile is a SHE, so that is what we refer as.


This doesn't disprove Nihilus' power. The fact that he decimated a planet still remains. Plus, there was circumstance as to why Nihilus was defeated. You just said them for me

I never said it didnt Nihilus is easily in the top 5 sith. And the circumstance proves that if she wasn't a wound in the force she would have died on the ravager.

Have you seen janus's post? It says everything that im trying point out on how her victories have circumstance thattake away from them.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
It's called 'plot convenience. Sion was never defeated physically, only mentally. Nihilus lost to the Exile because he weakened himself by trying to drain her, and Traya really didn't strike me as wanting to butcher her student whom she'd trained the entire time just because she's feeling contrary. If anything, Traya indicates that she wants the Exile to live because a) she can be of help to Revan and b) what the Exile thinks and does matters to her.

Her wins over Sion and Nihilus could be described as a fluke because she was lucky that she was wound and if she didnt have great persuasion skills she would have died. And Traya lost had some interesting facts as it says above.

Originally posted by Thousand
Yeah, he was forced to drain Republicans of their energy because he was normally weak. He needed outside sources of power to fuel himself. Did Sion? Nihilus? Traya?

Not so much. I didn't see them sucking energy from other life forms to defeat a single opponent. I saw them perform amazing features independently.

Malak is by no means a weakling. And so what if he drained the jedi to make himself more powerful to try and defeated a single opponent. Considering that single opponent is Revan aka the guy who traya call the heart of the force, and the same guy that pod bane is scarred to try some of his techniques from the holocron. The only smember of the triumvirate that could rival revan in power is Nihilus. And Nihilus DOES need an outside source to feed his hunger hence the reason he drains planets and people. And how does he do it, by his drain.

Originally posted by Janus Marius

It's also very possible that Ewoks invented the hyperdrive and are secretly just playing dumb.

Sorry, just had to mention: tickled the funny bone. you may continue

Thank you?





I'm aware most of them lost to particular circumstance. That's why you'd think it would not be an unexistent possibility for them to kill either Malak or Revan.

BTW, there is no evidence that indicates Traya was holding back. She even tried to kill the Exile with floating Lightsabers. I personally think she drove to destroy the first (Her mission in the first place) and utilized the void (Exile) and when he had outlived his purpose and she learned he was essentially not working out, she wanted him alleviated from life.






He did not drain Jedi, he was draining SOLDIERS.

And what is this bullshit? Traya could be biased. How the hell do you know she isn't biased? You can't go by what she says. That's ridiculous. She could hold a prejudice and it could have been a device for manipulation.

Malak isn't a weakling but any of the three within the newer Triumvirate would put him to shame.

Originally posted by Thousand
'm aware most of them lost to particular circumstance. That's why you'd think it would not be an unexistent possibility for them to kill either Malak or Revan.

Malak is a possibility but revan i highly doubt sion or traya could beat.

In a sion vs revan, revan has been called very charismatic yuthara, he did convince many jedi including masters to join him and the republic which leads me to believe to believe he has the persuasion skills necessary to beat Sion.Revan vs traya. id still say revan due how highly traya praises with comments like the heart of the force

Originally posted by Thousand
He did not drain Jedi, he was draining SOLDIERS.

And what is this bullshit? Traya could be biased. How the hell do you know she isn't biased? You can't go by what she says. That's ridiculous. She could hold a prejudice and it could have been a device for manipulation.

Malak isn't a weakling but any of the three within the newer Triumvirate would put him to shame.

Which one u talking about with the drain? Because malak does drain the captive jedi as it clearly says in the databank.
The Sith Lord had grotesquely adapted the Rakatan device to draw energy directly from chained Jedi captives. He replenished his life force from the captives by draining theirs. Malak was nearly unstoppable

And Nihilus does drain jedi and other force users such as on katarr killing the jedi then an he does try the exile on the ravager but couldnt because she is a wound in the force. And i did originally say that traya was the one she did legitimately beat but Janus and Lightsnake brought up interesting points regarding traya's personality . And can we please get on track with Bane vs Sion ,if u want to continue the discussion than i suggest you make a revan vs exile thread or something which i will respond to a little later on seeing as a i have to go to work now

No, Malak would be destroyed by any of them in one on one combat. Revan? Revan may be able to defeat Traya in physical combat, but Sion? Nihilus? I don't think so.



Yes, Revan may possibly wear Sion down with persuasion but if he screws up and they end up in a Lightsaber duel, It's over for Revan.

Traya? I think she'd try to protect herself and boost Revan's ego and then surprise attack him. She's that manipulative.





Ah, I see. Regardless, he needed the power from Jedi to stand a chance. If he was unprepared, he'd die in battle to any three existing in the Triumvirate. Sion was a good Lightsaber duelist. He was known for his brutality and for personally killing Jedi on the battlegrounds. He cannot be defeated physically so what do you suppose Malak is going to do to Sion? Not much.

As for Traya, she killed three Jedi Elders by extending her arm forward. She is obviously extremely powerful and is gifted when it comes to the force. Not to mention, Traya could probably make Malak commit suicide. She's uber manipulative.



This post was pointless. It's nothing more than you pointing out the obvious and agreeing with me. Again.

how?
when has she convinced jedi or sith to commit suicide

Originally posted by Thousand
No, my Exile is a He. wrong, canonically exile is a she


Originally posted by Thousand

This doesn't disprove Nihilus' power. The fact that he decimated a planet still remains. Plus, there was circumstance as to why Nihilus was defeated. You just said them for me.
He didnt decimate a planet, he decimated what was on the planet. And dont think nihilus is god with that skill because many people have the fallanasi technique to block it, and the fact that sidious has the same technique as nihilus

Originally posted by Thousand




Yes, Revan may possibly wear Sion down with persuasion but if he screws up and they end up in a Lightsaber duel, It's over for Revan.
More kotor fanboyism? So becuz sion is "invincible" NJO luke cant kill him? This is absurd! Firstly his flesh has already cracked and his bones splintered and broken, A force user powerful enough can use the force to decapitate sions body after cutting him with a lightsaber, or use debris and pin him on the floor

Originally posted by Thousand

Traya? I think she'd try to protect herself and boost Revan's ego and then surprise attack him. She's that manipulative. Revan is far superior to traya that you know it. POD explains it all





Originally posted by Thousand

Sion was a good Lightsaber duelist.
And how do you know that? Good? Maybe but in the league of the best duelers? No since there is nothing to indicate so
Originally posted by Thousand

He was known for his brutality and for personally killing Jedi on the battlegrounds. He cannot be defeated physically so what do you suppose Malak is going to do to Sion? Not much. LOL just to let you know sions "immortality" only takes place on malachor as he himself stated that due to the "dark side flowing through his cracks"
Originally posted by Thousand

As for Traya, she killed three Jedi Elders by extending her arm forward.
Zomg im impressed. She killed 3 jedi masters who has yet to do anything impressive and who has no defence to her attack
Originally posted by Thousand

She is obviously extremely powerful and is gifted when it comes to the force.
Powerful? Yes. Gifted? No? what is her "gift" by the way? Is it like anakins? The chosen one? Or?
Originally posted by Thousand

Not to mention, Traya could probably make Malak commit suicide. She's uber manipulative. Ahahahah that was so funny, biggest shit statement ever made in KMC. Like malak is weak willed, malak would slaughter her in a duel if she tried to do that and he would attempt to kill her



Keep trying, all i see is a number 2 fanboy of kotot

Im off of work finally!
Originally posted by Thousand
No, Malak would be destroyed by any of them in one on one combat. Revan? Revan may be able to defeat Traya in physical combat, but Sion? Nihilus? I don't think so.

Tell what in the hell makes Nihilus a physical beast? He has only been one known duel lost it. But all of a sudden he is skilled in lightsaber combat. Revan on the other hand has been in more duels and has defeated the likes of mandalore the ultimate in single combat,he defeated Yusanis who was considered a legendary echani duelist,he has defeated a darkside star forge powered bastilla 4 times, and then went on to face the star forge powered malak who was described a nearly unstoppable. Quite more impressive then anything nihilus or sion has done that we know of in saber combat. (i know that sion is known for killing jedi but who is worthy of mention among them?)


So let me gets this straight the minute sion and revan would lock sabers revan is doomed. Certainly the exile and sion must have locked blades and what is there to suggest the exile is in the same league as revan let alone above him in sabers? And Revan could wear down sion he has shown to be very charismatic/persuasive.



Ego? Revan is a very smart fighter/strategist i some how doubt he will fall her tricks ?



Malak is a very capable warrior. At his peak his battle with revan was described an epic one and he was nearly unstoppable. Which obviously means that is was not even close to being a walk in the park. And to further help Revan's case as being stronger than traya he says:You are stronger than I thought; stronger than you ever were during your reign as the Dark Lord." This means that he is stronger now, but malak was still able to put a fight otherwise there would be no need to describe the duel as epic nor would there be a reason to call him nearly unstoppable.

But when was the last time Traya saw Revan? It was obviously before he lost his memory meaning he was still the dark lord. Yet she stills call him "the heart of the force" when it has been YEARS since she last saw Revan so Traya would have almost no idea how powerful Revan has become. Especially since she was absent from the events of kotor 1. And if malak was able to put up a really good fight for this more powerful version of revan, i would even have my doubts that traya could beat SF Malak with as much ease at the very least you make it out to be. One could even argue that Sf malak is more powerful.

As far those three jedi masters go what in the world makes them powerful at all?Or the very least to contend with the top of the kotor tier force users let alone the jedi/sith of the pt era?







You misunderstood what i said which is my fault because i originally misunderstood what u said about the drain. So i questioned it and stated a few things about malak's and nihilus's. Then i went on to state my opinion on traya and pointed out that Janus and LS made a few interesting points. And btw the canon version of the exile is a light sided female.

Right, there is absolutely nothing to indicate that sion was even powerful in the force, If he is so uber why does he need idiotic sith assassins to follow him around blowing his dick?

And his so called immortality only takes place in malachor as he himself stated so.

And whats so special about nihilus? His "uber" attack can be blocked by the fallanasi technique and his TK is eclipsed by yodas and palpatines.

Do u know of any video links of that? I have heard it said before but i would like to see it

Originally posted by Darth Hord
Do u know of any video links of that? I have heard it said before but i would like to see it Im not too sure but you can try searching on youtube

Originally posted by Manslayer
Im not too sure but you can try searching on youtube

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iFfNmVSmIhs

I actually found it, its around the minute 54 mark. I will do my best to quote it

Then if you pause it at 3.53 he says

And interesting enough in regards to what janus and lightsnake have discussed sion says that traya wants to spare the exile to suffer or something like that in the begining of the duel.

I have just finished kicking Sion's ass with my male Exile character.

He mentioned that he could go down 100 hundred times, and still rise. Because all I had to do was stand above him and use "Force Crush" I tried to draw it out for as long as possible, but he gives in after 3 or 4 exchanges. If this is the benchmark for "immortal" or "invincible", then I am not impressed!

The guy is a charming character despite this though. I'd like to know how he ended up in that physical state.

Originally posted by Light_Sith
I have just finished kicking Sion's ass with my male Exile character.

He mentioned that he could go down 100 hundred times, and still rise. Because all I had to do was stand above him and use "Force Crush" I tried to draw it out for as long as possible, but he gives in after 3 or 4 exchanges. If this is the benchmark for "immortal" or "invincible", then I am not impressed!

The guy is a charming character despite this though. I'd like to know how he ended up in that physical state. Gameplay mechanics arent canon.

Did you notice the part where he stated his immortality on occurs on malachor?

Don't be ignorant. I specifically said that MY Exile was a HE.




Well, he completely ruined all life forms and practically everything on the planet. The planet essentially was destroyed. Try not to take all my statements literally.

The technique you mentioned is irrelevant, seeing as you cannot prove that Revan or Malak has that skill, considering that is the match we are seemingly debating. (As off topic as it may seem.)

He is a God with that skill. He destroy the entire population of a planet. He's practically a God; A Demi God, so to speak.



Oh my god, you can't debate.

Who the hell was arguing about NJO Luke? What are you on?

Your statement is bullshit. You'd think all the Jedi Sion obliterated would have tried to attempt that on him. If he's strong enough to keep his body together after all the damage you just mentioned, something tells me it's not going to be as simple as using the force to stop him from doing that.



It depends on what circumstances they fight under. I'm sure Revan could defeat her. Far superior in PHYSICAL and TACTICAL ranges, yes.

Manipulation and persuasion? Fat chance. If Traya manages to persuade Revan properly, she could have her way. Although Revan is quite intelligent himself, he may be able to resist her and see through the walls of deception.









Who said anything about him being in the "League of the best"? You need to discontinue placing words in my mouth.




Wrong. If he goes anywhere with darkened energies, it boosts his ability to hold that mortality. If he didn't have that mortality anywhere else (As you claim) He'd have fallen apart EVERYWHERE else. Not to mention, if the two did fight, I don't doubt Malak would go to a place festering with dark sided energies. Hell, Malak may even go to Sion, who would have an even more elevated chance of being somewhere abundant with DS energies.



That's the point. She knew they didn't have any form of defense awaiting her attack. If it killed them that quickly as well, it's obviously not a weak form of attack. This only proves her intelligence during intense situations and battle.




It's an exaggeration. I said above; Don't take me so literally. By me saying she has a gift, I'm only trying to express how powerful I think she is, for the sake of elaboration.




Really? How can you gauge how better he is at dueling compared to Traya? Wait ... you CANNOT.

We can gauge that she's more manipulative seeing as she had a large group of people blinded by her motives for extended periods of time. Malak? No. He had to use DIRECT force to confirm his objectives. (Bombing Revan is an example.)

I also didn't see Malak summon four flying Lightsabers. All I saw him do was drain Jedi to boost his already weakened status.





I'm not a fanboy; I just believe that the Triumvirate are capable of killing Revan and Malak.

You seem to be a KOTOR fanboy, seeing as you don't back up your statements but instead blindly proclaim "Revan can defeat this, Malak can defeat that!."

Check yourself before you wreck yourself, Hypocrite.

Originally posted by Manslayer
Did you notice the part where he stated his immortality on occurs on malachor?

Did u see my post on the last page or are u asking him. Ill put the quote up again anyway.

Originally posted by Thousand
Wrong. If he goes anywhere with darkened energies, it boosts his ability to hold that mortality. If he didn't have that mortality anywhere else (As you claim) He'd have fallen apart EVERYWHERE else.

No he can hold his body together anywhere but he can only resurrect himself on malachor



Did u see what i posted on the previous page? Because it answers alot of what your asking i think.I''l repost two of my key points.
This part deals with sion/nihilus saber's skills.

Tell what in the hell makes Nihilus a physical beast as you say he is? He has only been one known duel lost it. But all of a sudden he is skilled in lightsaber combat. Revan on the other hand has been in more duels and has defeated the likes of mandalore the ultimate in single combat,he defeated Yusanis who was considered a legendary echani duelist,he has defeated a darkside star forge powered bastilla 4 times, and then went on to face the star forge powered malak who was described a nearly unstoppable. Quite more impressive then anything nihilus has done that we know of in saber combat.And he can at the very least be a stalemate for Sion in sabers (probably more i believe) and he is more powerful in the force than Sion (i am aware that sion is known for killing jedi but who is worthy of mention among them or powerful at all?)


Then here I proved how Revan and Malak are above traya.

Malak is a very capable warrior. At his peak his battle with revan was described an epic one and he was nearly unstoppable. Which obviously means that is was not even close to being a walk in the park. And to further help Revan's case as being stronger than traya he says:"You are stronger than I thought; stronger than you ever were during your reign as the Dark Lord." This means that he is stronger now, but malak was still able to put a fight otherwise there would be no need to describe the duel as epic nor would there be a reason to call him nearly unstoppable.

But when was the last time Traya saw Revan? It was obviously before he lost his memory meaning he was still the dark lord. Yet she stills call him "the heart of the force" when it has been YEARS since she last saw Revan so Traya would have almost no idea how powerful Revan has become. Especially since she was absent from the events of kotor 1. So that means she also has no way to gauge Revan's or malak's power. And if malak was able to put up a really good fight for this more powerful version of revan, i would even have my doubts that traya could even beat SF Malak with as much ease at the very least you make it out to be. One could even argue that SF malak is more powerful than Revan was as the dark lord.

Malak>traya and possibly Sion depedning on the place of the duel.
Revan>Traya and Sion but I have my doubts with Nihilus

Originally posted by Thousand
Don't be ignorant. I specifically said that MY Exile was a HE. The fact that you said "your" exile is male is irrelevant. I merely pointed out that exile was a she canonically


Originally posted by Thousand

Well, he completely ruined all life forms and practically everything on the planet. The planet essentially was destroyed. Try not to take all my statements literally. conceded
Originally posted by Thousand

The technique you mentioned is irrelevant, seeing as you cannot prove that Revan or Malak has that skill, considering that is the match we are seemingly debating. (As off topic as it may seem.) It is relevant apparantly. Nihilus having that technique doesnt dispute him as a god.
Originally posted by Thousand

He is a God with that skill. He destroy the entire population of a planet. He's practically a God; A Demi God, so to speak. Lol a god? Then i guess sidious is the king of the "god" because he has the same technique and stated to be even more powerful than nihilus.

Oh yes a "god" which got killed by a jedi who was described to be ordinary by the council just that her special ability is forming bonds with other people. Try again


Originally posted by Thousand

Oh my god, you can't debate.
Says the one who cant even form cogent arguements


Originally posted by Thousand

Who the hell was arguing about NJO Luke? What are you on?
I am.

Originally posted by Thousand

Your statement is bullshit. You'd think all the Jedi Sion obliterated would have tried to attempt that on him. If he's strong enough to keep his body together after all the damage you just mentioned, something tells me it's not going to be as simple as using the force to stop him from doing that. Moron, please read my posts on the last few pages. I said strong force users. Stupid dumb fcuk read my posts before claiming my statements are bullshit.


Originally posted by Thousand

It depends on what circumstances they fight under. I'm sure Revan could defeat her. Far superior in PHYSICAL and TACTICAL ranges, yes. And not in the force? She admired him. POD stated he had more knowledge about the force than the entire jedi archives and doesnt knowledge equate to power?

Traya herself got fcuked when nihilus attempted to kill her
Originally posted by Thousand

Manipulation and persuasion? Fat chance. If Traya manages to persuade Revan properly, she could have her way. Although Revan is quite intelligent himself, he may be able to resist her and see through the walls of deception. By your logic palpatine would have whooped yodas ass seeing that he is an even better manipulator than traya. Your actually assuming revans going to listen traya admit a lightsaber duel which wont happen.

IF she even attempted to talk shit during the duel she would get cleaved in half








Originally posted by Thousand

Who said anything about him being in the "League of the best"? You need to discontinue placing words in my mouth. Because many people are acting like "hes so great" in the arts of the lightsaber



Originally posted by Thousand

Wrong. If he goes anywhere with darkened energies, it boosts his ability to hold that mortality.
It only boosts him to hold it longer hence why he proclaims himself "invincible" on malachor and please quit defying canon, he himself stated he will never fall on malachor due to the planets extreme dark side aura, His ability wouldnt be as great anywhere else with an inferior dark side energy as we saw on korriban.

I will ask again, if he is "immortal" why does he need sith assassins to guide him?

Originally posted by Thousand

If he didn't have that mortality anywhere else (As you claim) He'd have fallen apart EVERYWHERE else.
It isnt "mortality", it is the ability and capability he has on malachor which wouldnt be with him elsewhere
Originally posted by Thousand

Not to mention, if the two did fight, I don't doubt Malak would go to a place festering with dark sided energies. Hell, Malak may even go to Sion, who would have an even more elevated chance of being somewhere abundant with DS energies. And? malak has been known to use dark side energies to boost him up as he himself did that to the SF


Originally posted by Thousand

That's the point. She knew they didn't have any form of defense awaiting her attack. If it killed them that quickly as well, it's obviously not a weak form of attack. This only proves her intelligence during intense situations and battle. Quite true actually, but nowhere did i state that was a weak form attacked








Originally posted by Thousand

Really? How can you gauge how better he is at dueling compared to Traya? Wait ... you CANNOT. And you can? He defeated kavar and was a saber prodigy like revan, wait. WHAT has kreia done with a lightsaber? What? floating 3 lightsabers = shes a uber duelist? Any good force user can use the force to quickly dismantle and destroy the sabers
Originally posted by Thousand

We can gauge that she's more manipulative seeing as she had a large group of people blinded by her motives for extended periods of time. Malak? No. He had to use DIRECT force to confirm his objectives. (Bombing Revan is an example.) And how is being manipulative relevant to a fight? It only MAY work IF the opponent is listening which in many cases, they dont and instead go-for-the-kill
Originally posted by Thousand

I also didn't see Malak summon four flying Lightsabers. All I saw him do was drain Jedi to boost his already weakened status. Lol floating 4 sabers means your uber, Malak despite being a great duelist can easily

1) Use the force to destroy those sabers
2) Decapitate the hilts as no hands are holding them

So because she used TK to handle a few sabers means shes a good or fantastic duelist? Then i Guess Grievious is 2nd to luke in dueling then. Fantastic logic you have




Originally posted by Thousand

I'm not a fanboy; I just believe that the Triumvirate are capable of killing Revan and Malak. I partially believe that, the only thing which is going to aid nihilus to kill revan is his drain, other than that revan is superior to him in every aspect.

And wait do we even know if nihilus uber drain is one of his arsenal? Because he only uses it when he hungers so the fact weather he uses it in a fight is unknown

Originally posted by Thousand

You seem to be a KOTOR fanboy, seeing as you don't back up your statements but instead blindly proclaim "Revan can defeat this, Malak can defeat that!." I already have you moron, did you not see the key word "POD"? Which means path of destruction? And how can i be a fanboy for defending revan and malak? I might as well(I actually already have) label you a kotor2 fanboy seeing that you yourself hasnt formed cogent arguements and where you have yet to prove anything
Originally posted by Thousand

Check yourself before you wreck yourself, Hypocrite. Lol

I'm in agreement with Manslayer here. It's certainly possible that Bane's exceptional command of the force would bypass Sion's ability.

Originally posted by Manslayer
Gameplay mechanics arent canon.

Did you notice the part where he stated his immortality on occurs on malachor?

I don't really care about what is considered Canon in this instance. It is impossible to tell who is stronger if you go by the official powers Sion has, and opinions will be weak.

Back to the game. I noticed that he claimed that he could not be beaten in the particular place he was fighting in. I told him that the place did not matter, and it is the man that counts (or something to that effect).

Unlike with KOTOR 1 I did not read spoilers for this game and had only read random things about him. Some said that you had to "trick" him into "suicide". The end was surprising for me.

If you don't care what's canon, then there's no argument here. I could have taken out a hold-out blaster and repeatedly shot Sion to little effect. I guess that means he can hold himself together after having chunks of tissue vaporized or blown off - in which case he'd be virtually invincible. What you do in your game has no bearing whatsoever in a debate.

As to the fight itself - we have no idea how good Sion is with a saber, just that he should be pretty good. In this case, that's not good enough, so we can't really decide. Nihilus would just drain everyone but the Exile to death.

Originally posted by Faunus
As to the fight itself - we have no idea how good Sion is with a saber, just that he should be pretty good. In this case, that's not good enough, so we can't really decide. Nihilus would just drain everyone but the Exile to death.

We know more of Revan's ligthsaber/dueling skills more than we do of Sion's/traya's/and Nihilus's because the only known duels that have been it against an above the average jedi is the exile and they all lost to her. We know sion kills jedi and probably by lightsaber duel/force duel but who has he killed thatr was noted to be powerful.

And I like how thousand didnt respond to my post which proves that revan and malak are above traya and that revan is above sion too and can give Nihilus at the very least a h*ll of a battle.

Originally posted by Faunus
If you don't care what's canon, then there's no argument here. I could have taken out a hold-out blaster and repeatedly shot Sion to little effect. I guess that means he can hold himself together after having chunks of tissue vaporized or blown off - in which case he'd be virtually invincible. What you do in your game has no bearing whatsoever in a debate.

As to the fight itself - we have no idea how good Sion is with a saber, just that he should be pretty good. In this case, that's not good enough, so we can't really decide. Nihilus would just drain everyone but the Exile to death.

Indeed - there is no worthwhile debate. Carrying on would be like arguing over whose god is more powerful (unless you take superstition seriously). On that note I see no harm in a mention of something even more irrelevant.

Not worthwhile? WTF u talking about were are proving that all members of the triumvirate are not more powerful than Revan or Malak and we are getting the facts straight about the lightsaber skills in check and we have trying to understand how Sion can not die unless he chooses to on malachor

Originally posted by Darth Hord
Not worthwhile? WTF u talking about were are proving that all members of the triumvirate are not more powerful than Revan or Malak and we are getting the facts straight about the lightsaber skills in check and we have trying to understand how Sion can not die unless he chooses to on malachor

Nice to see someone with a sense of homour here

WTF? Thousand, you skip my post entirely?

No, it's not irrelevant. I refer to MY Exile as a HE. I already knew that the Exile is a female canonically. If you have a seemingly hard time understanding, that's most likely a personal problem.



Alright.



I'll break this down for you:

We know that Nihilus possesses a very deadly technique. If he can diminish a whole planet of force sensitives, He should not have trouble with one that isn't the void of the force. We DO NOT know that Revan or Malak possess the capability to block such a technique.

As I said previously (This is me repeating myself, remember) if he can strip the life off of an entire planet, It basically makes him a Demi God.







A) It's debatable that Traya was holding back during the duel.
B) What the council says is 100% true? Sidious said Yoda was weak and underestimated him. I guess this means Yoda was weak?
C) Yeah, because all she did was "Form bonds". Try again.




I believe I can. Drop the rhetoric and learn to spell or use spell check. Either or is not difficult.




It's irrelevant and we're not speaking of him. If you were trying to attempt some sort of simile, you failed in doing so. Move on.



If you cannot debate without using such foul language, I'll have to report you. What makes you think who he encountered wasn't strong? Can you prove otherwise? The answer is no, most likely.




So, by your logic, the fact that she admired him makes her weaker? Ridiculous. This proves nothing.

Revan holds more knowledge of the force than the Jedi Archives? Is Traya the Jedi Archives? I didn't think so.

Nihilus is arguably more powerful than Revan. This still does not prove Revan to be stronger than Traya. Sorry.



No, your logical equation is wrong. Traya and Revan are two different people. Plus, Sidious and Yoda fought in different circumstances.



How do you know Revan wouldn't listen? He's not a mindless killing machine. He wouldn't just straight up kill her. Even so, What proof do you have that Revan is a better duelist? Really



He does have a past of slaying Jedi. I'm sure he's not a poor duelist.




What the? Inferior on Korriban? He left a Jedi laying in blood and chased the Exile out of the academy. Like I said earlier, they would most likely fight in an area high with darkened energies seeing as they're both Sith.

Plus, if he's walking everywhere else with that broken body and he's strong enough to keep it together, this says something about his tolerance level. No one defied Canon. I didn't disagree with you.



Most Sith Lords have assistance with them and he obviously needs Assassins for dirty work.



The ability he has IS with him elsewhere or as I said before, he'd fall apart. He's independently strong enough to hold all the broken bones in his body and his skin together in other places. He says that himself and so do the Republicans on the recording when the Exile is on the Harbinger, is it?





No, he used the energy from Jedi themselves and the Jedi were captive in tanks. From what we've seen, Sion is virtually unstoppable utilizing darkened energies, as seen on Malachor. I don't see Malak holding his body together with pure force. I see him having to use a machine for his missing Jaw.




I never said you stated it was weak. I'm TELLING you it obviously was not a weak form of attack..



I'm not trying to. You appear to be. We don't know what she has done with her Lightsaber. For all you know, she killed a million Jedi in one sitting.

No, not any force user can do that because Traya may be using the force to protect those Lightsabers. The exile didn't dismantle them so easily.



In most cases, the person may have not been as manipulatory capable as Traya was.




How do you know his force is strong enough to disable the lightsabers?

Grievous and Traya are two different entities. Your analysis is poor. Your logic isn't so fantastic, now is it?

No, but Malak may not hold the capacity to handle three lightsabers midair including Trayas.




This is what I'm talking about. You can't prove Revan is better in every other aspect. Stop spewing crapola.



What makes you think he won't hunger during the fight? It's highly possible he'll be using the force against Revan and he'll most likely get hungry for more of the force itself.



We're on the same level here. Stop trying to classify me as proof less. I've debunked you on these issues. Stop calling me names. It shows intellectual bankruptcy.



Right.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
WTF? Thousand, you skip my post entirely?

My apologies, Janus Marius. Could you quote this post for me so I can review it? Thank you.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
If this Jedi you claim is so inferior, how was he able to kill three Sith Lords of such great power?


It's called 'plot convenience. Sion was never defeated physically, only mentally. Nihilus lost to the Exile because he weakened himself by trying to drain her, and Traya really didn't strike me as wanting to butcher her student whom she'd trained the entire time just because she's feeling contrary. If anything, Traya indicates that she wants the Exile to live because a) she can be of help to Revan and b) what the Exile thinks and does matters to her.

It's very possible that the Exile could kill Revan.

It's also very possible that Ewoks invented the hyperdrive and are secretly just playing dumb.

But I don't think blind speculation really helps us here; Revan pretty much pissed all over all comers. The Exile was very very good, but certainly not an equal. The Jedi Masters themselves even note that Revan was greater in the Force. And it's something to be said that while the Jedi Masters were able to overcome the Exile, they could not overcome Traya nor could they dominate Revan.

Figures. It got buried on the second-third page somewhere. This is the main one; I elaborated a bit on it to LS, but if you have gripes I'll address them.

Thousand u all missed mine I''l repost my 2 key points FOR THE 3RD TIME!

Originally posted by Darth Hord
Tell what in the hell makes Nihilus a physical beast as you say he is? He has only been one known duel lost it. But all of a sudden he is skilled in lightsaber combat. Revan on the other hand has been in more duels and has defeated the likes of mandalore the ultimate in single combat,he defeated Yusanis who was considered a legendary echani duelist,he has defeated a darkside star forge powered bastilla 4 times, and then went on to face the star forge powered malak who was described a nearly unstoppable. Quite more impressive then anything nihilus has done that we know of in saber combat.And he can at the very least be a stalemate for Sion in sabers (probably more i believe) and he is more powerful in the force than Sion (i am aware that sion is known for killing jedi but who is worthy of mention among them or powerful at all?)

And im also gonna add on that Traya the only real duel she was in that we know of was against the exile and she lost so I wouldn't say she a master with only one know lightsaber duel.

2nd point here




And here is my reaction to a couple of your posts thousand.




Actually has been proven that Malachor has more darkside energy then korriban. Revan almost died just by walking on the surface, I never heard anything like htat happening on korriban.



Actually i do believe tat th energy from the jedi is darkened Here is what malak said And so what if he can't hold his body together than I guess anybody who loses a body part and gets a replacement is weak huh?



You took the words right out of my mouth we don't know anything about her skills other than thatshe was in one real duel and lost so she can't be considered a master no matter how many lightsabers she uses. And the exile's skill with a lightsbaer is still in question since her duels with sion and nihilus weren't straight up duels to the death.


You

Your not called the heart of the force for nothing. Bane was scared of some of the techniques that Revan knew when he studied his holocron. He has been in more duels and therefore were judge his skills better and see my above post for more info to back it up.

And please to respond to Janus and me. And thousand i did notice that i mispelled a few things above, sorry.

Oh and Janus I did find the quote Sion says that hints to Traya not want to kill the exile.



The break and death part to me sound like what Sion feels will happen not Traya's opinion of what will happen.

And im sorry thousand but I f*cked quoting myself about my second point. Im sorry if u respond to that and not read this first but the second paragraph is very important and I need it in there.

Malak is a very capable warrior. At his peak his battle with revan was described an epic one and he was nearly unstoppable. Which obviously means that is was not even close to being a walk in the park. And to further help Revan's case as being stronger than traya he says:"You are stronger than I thought; stronger than you ever were during your reign as the Dark Lord." This means that he is stronger now, but malak was still able to put a fight otherwise there would be no need to describe the duel as epic nor would there be a reason to call him nearly unstoppable.

But when was the last time Traya saw Revan? It was obviously before he lost his memory meaning he was still the dark lord. Yet she stills call him "the heart of the force" when it has been YEARS since she last saw Revan so Traya would have almost no idea how powerful Revan has become. Especially since she was absent from the events of kotor 1. So that means she also has no way to gauge Revan's or malak's power. And if malak was able to put up a really good fight for this more powerful version of revan, i would even have my doubts that traya could even beat SF Malak with as much ease at the very least you make it out to be. One could even argue that SF Malak is stronger than Revan was as the dark lord.

Originally posted by Thousand
No, it's not irrelevant. I refer to MY Exile as a HE. I already knew that the Exile is a female canonically. If you have a seemingly hard time understanding, that's most likely a personal problem. Fine then


Originally posted by Thousand

We know that Nihilus possesses a very deadly technique. If he can diminish a whole planet of force sensitives, He should not have trouble with one that isn't the void of the force. We DO NOT know that Revan or Malak possess the capability to block such a technique.
True but what is there to indicate it that he uses it as a killer technique during a duel? I believe he uses that technique as he used it on kreia to cut her connection off the force but i believe during a duel timing is critical

Originally posted by Thousand

As I said previously (This is me repeating myself, remember) if he can strip the life off of an entire planet, It basically makes him a Demi God. A god which got killed by an average jedi. If i go by what you say sidious and luke are literally gods in star wars which they are. Nihilus only has one great technique, even some one like dooku beats him in other aspects of the force like mastery and skill save for TK which nihilus has over dooku so no, i wouldnt consider nihilus a demi god






Originally posted by Thousand

A) It's debatable that Traya was holding back during the duel.
Oh? Yet she attempted to kill the exile
Originally posted by Thousand

B) What the council says is 100% true? Sidious said Yoda was weak and underestimated him. I guess this means Yoda was weak?
Apparantly they are right as we have yet to see anything remarkable to be done by the exile
Originally posted by Thousand

C) Yeah, because all she did was "Form bonds". Try again. Care to explain what else she did was interesting? To be honest im willing to listen to what you have to say



Originally posted by Thousand

I believe I can. Drop the rhetoric and learn to spell or use spell check. Either or is not difficult. Of course you can, just that you have yet to do it as you still need to back up some of your claims with sources. I do admire the fact however your using logic in this debate as compared to some other members. Im just lazy to click spell check

I apologise for the insults



Originally posted by Thousand

It's irrelevant and we're not speaking of him. If you were trying to attempt some sort of simile, you failed in doing so. Move on. settled


Originally posted by Thousand

If you cannot debate without using such foul language, I'll have to report you. What makes you think who he encountered wasn't strong? Can you prove otherwise? The answer is no, most likely. Ok i'm sorry for the insults then as i am making a fool of myself.

But let me ask a question what makes you think who he encountered is strong? Can you prove that? The answer is most likely no.





Originally posted by Thousand

So, by your logic, the fact that she admired him makes her weaker? Ridiculous. This proves nothing. No but the fact that she respected him due to his power, She even described him as the heart of the force.

And revans greatest feat > kreias, Revan used the dark side energies of malachor to destroy the entire mandalorian crusaders i believe. This statement came from many members here and i see no reason for them to lie, It too problably came from kreia
Originally posted by Thousand

Revan holds more knowledge of the force than the Jedi Archives? Is Traya the Jedi Archives? I didn't think so. Did i say she was? The archives i had mentioned was the one in korriban during the brotherhood of darkness era.
Originally posted by Thousand

Nihilus is arguably more powerful than Revan. This still does not prove Revan to be stronger than Traya. Sorry. More powerful in what sense? Due to his drain? Again that is the only advantage he has against revan, revan clearly beats him in all other aspects of the force and the feats which revan did clearly indicates he is more powerful than nihilus


Originally posted by Thousand

No, your logical equation is wrong. Traya and Revan are two different people. Plus, Sidious and Yoda fought in different circumstances.
Really? I was going by your logic. "Zomg traya is a fabulous manipulator and that is relevant to battle!!! She can persuade malak or revan to lose!!!!!" Right this point holds no water at all seeing that revan himself can apply dun moch or simply chose to ignore what kreias saying

Originally posted by Thousand

How do you know Revan wouldn't listen? He's not a mindless killing machine.
How do you know he would? He obviously would know kreia would try to wear him down during battle and thus chose not to listen to her


Originally posted by Thousand

He wouldn't just straight up kill her. Even so, What proof do you have that Revan is a better duelist? Really Being described as the best dueler of the kotor era? The fact that he is a saber prodigy and that kreia isnt? What proof do you have that kreia is a better duelist?


Originally posted by Thousand

He does have a past of slaying Jedi. I'm sure he's not a poor duelist. GG has a past of slaying jedi too yet got owned by obi wan kenobi


Originally posted by Thousand


What the? Inferior on Korriban? He left a Jedi laying in blood and chased the Exile out of the academy. Like I said earlier, they would most likely fight in an area high with darkened energies seeing as they're both Sith. But the fact remains is that only on malachor is where he is truly "invincible". So because he is "immortal" even the strongest force user wouldnt be able to defeat him?
Originally posted by Thousand



Plus, if he's walking everywhere else with that broken body and he's strong enough to keep it together, this says something about his tolerance level. No one defied Canon. I didn't disagree with you. So? Its only the incredible dark side energy of malachor which allowed him not fall countless times, Again he himself stated that


Originally posted by Thousand

Most Sith Lords have assistance with them and he obviously needs Assassins for dirty work. Vader didnt, bane didnt, exar kun didnt, palpatine didnt hell even malak and revan didnt need them


Originally posted by Thousand

The ability he has IS with him elsewhere or as I said before,
Thats true but again the "immortality" and ability to never fall takes place on malachor as he himself stated. God will you just except this and move on? Because going by your logic id doubt Luke would even beat him in a fight due to him having the ability to hold his flesh together
Originally posted by Thousand

he'd fall apart. He's independently strong enough to hold all the broken bones in his body and his skin together in other places. He says that himself and so do the Republicans on the recording when the Exile is on the Harbinger, is it? The fact weather he can hold his body together anywhere in the galaxy is irrelevant, Its the fact that he is completely unable to die on malachor as the dark side energy flows through his cracks which gives him the ability to never die unless he gives up.





Originally posted by Thousand
. From what we've seen, Sion is virtually unstoppable utilizing darkened energies, as seen on Malachor.
Malak himself was stated to be unstoppable on the star forge seeing that the dark side energy- not the captive jedis were increasing his power. And you said "as seen in malachor" so you do agree with what i said then.

Originally posted by Thousand

I don't see Malak holding his body together with pure force. I see him having to use a machine for his missing Jaw. That doesnt equate to sion being more powerful than malak as you have yet to prove





Originally posted by Thousand


I'm not trying to. You appear to be. We don't know what she has done with her Lightsaber. For all you know, she killed a million Jedi in one sitting. Yet you claim shes a great duelist

Originally posted by Thousand


No, not any force user can do that because Traya may be using the force to protect those Lightsabers. The exile didn't dismantle them so easily. "Might" be? Do you have anything to backup this ridiculous assertion? Because if the force can shield lightsabers then i guess it can protect force users thus then not needing a saber in the first place? The exile didnt dismantle them easily simply because of gameplay mechanics, Then i can simply say the exile couldnt kill a stupid soldier easily despite beating him several times with a saber.

Again a lightsaber cuts through just about everything save for sith alchemy swords, orbalisks and mandalorian iron


Originally posted by Thousand

In most cases, the person may have not been as manipulatory capable as Traya was. And in most cases, manipulation wouldnt work in battle ESPECIALLY if the opponent is a strong minded force user

Originally posted by Thousand

How do you know his force is strong enough to disable the lightsabers? How do you know he isnt? Vader has enough strength to physically crush his own lightsaber hilt as stated by RODV and revan is an extremely powerful force user, He invented the thought bomb, He used the dark side of malachor to destroy the mandalorians. He fought through an army of dark jedis. He killed malak who was described as "unstoppable" on the SF due to his boost in the force and captive jedis.

Seriously your attempts to downplay revan is pathetic
Originally posted by Thousand

Grievous and Traya are two different entities. Your analysis is poor. Your logic isn't so fantastic, now is it?. No, Its by yourlogic that she could float 3 sabers means shes uber duelist. By your logic many sabers = uber duelist

Originally posted by Thousand

No, but Malak may not hold the capacity to handle three lightsabers midair including Trayas. Wow so that means traya is uber? God your hilarious, Who woo pi fcuking do, She could float 3 lightsabers wow she sure is a great duelist.



Originally posted by Thousand

This is what I'm talking about. You can't prove Revan is better in every other aspect. Stop spewing crapola. I already have. It is you who has yet to prove anything. Prove up or shut the hell up which you have yet to do either





Originally posted by Thousand

We're on the same level here. Stop trying to classify me as proof less.
Iv stated the sources. Time to prove up son, SE databanks, NEC, POD, Kotor cutscenes. There you go. Proof you want proof you got. Prove up or shut up

He tried using it against the exile and he may have used it against Traya. Oh, why doesn't he just cut Malak or Revan's connection to the force completely off? Or can they block that? I don't think so.



You can't say he was an average Jedi. You're going by what the Council said and this just doesn't cover it as proof. They could be emotionally charged words. You can't tell me an average Jedi just goes around defeating three Sith Lords and their assassins AND what may or may not canonically an entire temple of disciplined Sith students in one sitting ... Just being an average Jedi. You cannot prove that Dooku can defeat Nihilus in every other aspect of the force! You're just choosing characters and coming out with random figures.

Wasn't the Exile an average Jedi, though? Wouldn't Traya be able to kill an Average Jedi? Or Sion? Or Nihilus?



Wow ... Read above?




She taught Revan, Nihilus and Sion? Not interesting enough?


Remember how you said Nihilus' technique could be blocked? A quote from Traya to debunk that:

"There are techniques within the Force against which there is no defense. I was cast down, stripped of my power, exiled."

Here's her manipulation score:

"She also tempted the Mandalorian leader, Mandalore, with knowledge of Revan's fate in order to ensure that he would not betray the Exile."

"She lied to the Exile at the beginning of their quest, claiming that the Jedi Council was responsible for the Exile's being severed from the Force. Kreia knew this would lead the Exile to seek out the surviving members of the Jedi Council, which would allow Kreia to kill them. On Onderon, Kreia lied to Colonel Tobin about the existence of many Jedi in a Jedi Academy on Telos. Kreia did this because she knew that Tobin would relay this to his true Master, Darth Nihilus, who would not be able to resist the chance to replenish himself and would recklessly assault Telos. This left Nihilus vulnerable to the assault of the Mandalorians and the Exile."


Traits similar to powerful sith?

"Kreia had the ability to wield three or more lightsabers in combat, holding each of them aloft with the Force, and having them fight with a will of their own. This ability is also associated with the ancient Dark Lord of the Sith Exar Kun."

A power like Nihilus?

"Kreia possessed the ability to single-handedly strip others of the Force, utterly robbing their bodies of the mystical energy field."



It goes both way, as I said previously. You haven't provided much for the likes of proof.



I can't prove it! You're right! Here's the thing, though; You're trying to call them DEFINITELY weak, as you did in your last post. I'm not sitting here trying to call them 100% strong. Stop strawmanning.





She had an infatuation for him. She even said she'd die for him. This still, yet again, is meaningless. Who wouldn't admire their prize student?



Wow, he killed Mandalorian Crusaders. What does this have to do with attempted to destroy powerful Sith Lords? Hmm? Are you just throwing out random features? This possibly proves your fanboyism.



It doesn't MATTER. You're strawmanning yet again. We were comparing Revan to Traya and saying Revan holds more knowledge than the archives is just a feature throw. What if Traya has more knowledge than those archives AND the Sith Archives? We're comparing the two, not the Jedi Archives and Revan .... TRAYA AND REVAN.



The "Only advantage"? What ... Stripping Revan of the force is Nihilus' "Only advantage"? You're a funny guy.

Regardless, how can you prove Revan defeats Nihilus in every other aspect? Is this the proof you speak of? If so, I'm unimpressed.



You're not following my logic at all. So.. Revan would mindlessly kill Traya and ignore her because YOU said so?

It is relevant to battle. It's an important feature of hers.

Really? He would obviously know this ... How? The events of Traya becoming a manipulator happened AFTER Traya had been training Revan.

Your proof is wildly unsupported.



Described by who? A Saber prodigy? Who said that as well?

I don't have proof that Traya is a better duelist but YET AGAIN I'm not trying to pass her off as a better duelist.




Your point? You act like Kenobi was a pushover, despite defeating the chosen one and killing Darth Maul. Besides, GG is completely different than Darth Sion. Stop comparing entities that are completely different. Christ almighty.





That's untrue.

"He later duels with the Exile on Korriban, the dark forces of which make him unstoppable; the Exile has no choice but to flee."

The Exile left because Sion was UNMATCHED on Korriban because there was darkened energies. I told you earlier; When he is around darkened energies, it makes him practically immortal.



He didn't say it was ONLY Malachor that provided him with this newly found tolerance. Stop changing things around.




Vader didn't? 501st.

Palpatine didn't? Jesus christ ... HIS ENTIRE PLAN was based upon other people doing his dirty work FOR him including disabling the Jedi in O66.

Malak? Is that a Joke? He had the Starforge filled to the brim with Sith Disciples.

Revan had a group of people helping him to achieve his goals the whole time.

Again, all these people you mentioned ARE NOT Sion.





You're missing the point here ... Immortal on Malachor, yes, but he is difficult to defeat in other places seeing as he can hold his body together with sheer force power.

Anywhere with darkened energies makes him practically immortal.

WTF? Luke is not a part of this debate. Get over it. Quickly.



It's not just there. Korriban as well. He can't be defeated where darkened energies are present. Independently, he's still a powerhouse.




Malak got stopped physically. He wasn't that powerful. Sion had to be disabled via mental persuasion because he could not PHYSICALLY be halted.

WTF is this bullshit? The captive Jedi gave Malak his power. When you take that away from him, he becomes defeatable.




It goes both ways, son.




Where did I say this? Don't lie on top of everything else.



The Exile had to personally attack the hilts with his own Lightsaber.



That is the most ridiculous comparison I've ever seen. In my life. It had nothing to do with that sect of the debate by ANY means.



LOL, is there a point to you stating this?



It doesn't matter how STRONG they are. Manipulation wouldn't wear off because of someone's strength in the force. Jesus, what is wrong with you?

Lol thousand i just read through your points so far it is severely flawed and i will hand you your ass later when i get back.

So far you have yet to prove anything while i have for the most part.

And just one question. I am most curious to where you got those quotes from

Again, ignored. Ah well.

Hord, nice bit of information. Thanks!

THOUSAND YOU IGNORED ME AND JANUS AGAIN! It is not helping you at all ignoring us we bring up really good points that you are missing at on. And no problem Janus.

Originally posted by Thousand
Remember how you said Nihilus' technique could be blocked? A quote from Traya to debunk that:

"There are techniques within the Force against which there is no defense. I was cast down, stripped of my power, exiled."


I have had this discussion before and it was not a drain that Nihilus did other wise it would be orange since that is the color for the drain both in gameplay and cutscenes for both kotor games. Quite frankly it is still a mystery what happened to her. And the technique that Manslayer is referring to not really a fense the stops the drain. The technique loops you out of the force so u are basically not force sensitive then u could loop back in and be able to use the force.(manslayer correct me if i didnt explain it right) So he can't drain the force out of non force sensitives. AND PLEASE RESPOND TO ME AND JANUS'S POST FROM THE LAST PAGE OR TWO!

Originally posted by Thousand
He tried using it against the exile and he may have used it against Traya. Oh, why doesn't he just cut Malak or Revan's connection to the force completely off? Or can they block that? I don't think so.
You're right.. It's NOT logical for Revan, who walked on Malachor V and plundered its underground cities, to possibly know this technique and defense for. You know, the same technique Nihilus learned, on MALACHOR V.

And that Revan was the first person to walk on malachor's surface for MANY YEARS! So all the knowledge would still be there eliminating the idea of plunders taking the knowledge like what had happened on korriban.

Originally posted by Thousand
"There are techniques within the Force against which there is no defense. I was cast down, stripped of my power, exiled."
Yet at the same time, techniques always have a defense for them. Logically, Revan should have known the technique that Nihilus uses, but couldn't use it to the level of Nihilus because Nihilus is a wound in the force, which exponentially increases his attack.



What, the databank? Lol. There's no proof of Kun ever using 3 blades in the air. In fact that wouldn't make much sense since we've seen ALL of his lightsaber battles. Try again..






Traya is a historian yes, but in terms of dark side knowledge? Revan had all of Korriban and all of Malachor V. It's likely nobody has more knowledge than REvan except for Sidious.




That's assuming he can.


Yet again. Nihilus.. One technique. Revan, everything learned from Korriban and Malachor V and no I don't have to quantify that because he plundered the cities of Malachor V while Nihilus...Didn't.

Originally posted by Thousand
.Regardless, how can you prove Revan defeats Nihilus in every other aspect? Is this the proof you speak of? If so, I'm unimpressed.



Nihilus has been in known duel and he lost it to the exile so saying he is a "physical beast" as u said has no logic behind. Revan has been in duels against Mandalore the ultimate, Yusanis th elegendary echani general,defeated a Star forge powered Bastilla 4 times and defeated as Star Forge powered Malak how is described as nearly unstoppable.

And in the force department Nihilus only has the one technique and better tk then revan. Revan as sexy said has all of korriban and malachor V. In PoD Bane says that he had learn more from Revan's holocron than he learned on Korriban.(or something along those lines). Not only that but Bane was scarred of some of the techniques Revan knew. And he told Kaan about the thought bomb (which he also learned from Revan's holocron) so I doubt he would tell Kaan an attack that he was frightened of especially since Bane viewed kaan and the brotherhood as weak. This leads me to believe that the thought bomb was not the attack Bane was referring to that he was scared. And not to mention Revan's version of the force storm that killed several rakatan scouting parties at once in an instant.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
Again, ignored. Ah well.

Hord, nice bit of information. Thanks!
Originally posted by Darth Hord
THOUSAND YOU IGNORED ME AND JANUS AGAIN! It is not helping you at all ignoring us we bring up really good points that you are missing at on. And no problem Janus.

Can you two stop harassing me? I don't have the time to reply to your arguments right now so I'm concentrating on one member for the time being. I apologize If I seem ignorant but I barely have the time to reply to the argument I'm having.

Techniques always have a defense? It's made clear that there is not a defense for them.

Once more:

"There are techniques within the Force against which there is no defense."




Well, then, that's that. I didn't know. I thought Exar had the ability to perform such a technique.




That's ridiculous, considering Traya was a historian. She can predict the future as well. I'm pretty sure she has a good grip on the past.

Revan had information from Korriban and Malachor V? I had no idea. Can you show me what kind of information and how he obtained this information? I'm interested.




Unless Revan's a void in the force, Nihilus is going to drain him. There is no defense for the technique we're speaking of.



Yeah, Nihilus only destroyed an entire planet of force sensitives. It doesn't matter if he only has one technique. You put quantity over quality and you're appealing to a majority. That's considered a Logical fallacy.

Nihilus' one technique isn't just some dry force maneuver. It's a drain that eliminates the force completely and gives Nihilus power.

Originally posted by Darth Hord
I have had this discussion before and it was not a drain that Nihilus did other wise it would be orange since that is the color for the drain both in gameplay and cutscenes for both kotor games. Quite frankly it is still a mystery what happened to her. And the technique that Manslayer is referring to not really a fense the stops the drain. The technique loops you out of the force so u are basically not force sensitive then u could loop back in and be able to use the force.(manslayer correct me if i didnt explain it right) So he can't drain the force out of non force sensitives. AND PLEASE RESPOND TO ME AND JANUS'S POST FROM THE LAST PAGE OR TWO!

You can't just instantly loop back into the force. It takes training, as shown with the Exile. If Nihilus drained her in that instant, he had the opportunity to kill her. She was stripped of her Lightsaber and the force. She was absolutely defenseless.

This could also mean Nihilus has another technique for draining the force, seeing as it was not visually noticeable. Maybe he can dish out a drain that eliminates the force THAT is completely unstoppable.

Originally posted by Thousand
Techniques always have a defense? It's made clear that there is not a defense for them.

Once more:

"There are techniques within the Force against which there is no defense."
Weird. I seem to recall a defense for Nihilus' technique involves looping out of the force. So you see, there is a technique? And all signs point to Revan knowing the same technique Nihilus knows, so your argument holds no water.



Explain why I would have to quantify thequality of his knowledge? He plundered Korriban, which as we know, held ridiculous secrets, holocrons, etc. He plundered Malachor V which was a storehouse of ancient sith/truth sith knowledge. The fact that he did these two things already puts his quantity and quality of information beyond Kreia, and possibly everybody else save for Sidious. It also confirms that it's very logical Revan knew that draining technique.





And yet again, all logic points to Revan knowing the same technique. Bane did shit his pants when he saw what Revan was teaching.




Yet he didn't destroy Kreia, yet he didn't destroy the Exile. Him being a wound in the force quantified his force draining ability. Anyone who can loop out of the force or who is familiar with the same attack can wtfpwn him.

You know what? I'm just going to leave this debate and declare a complete loss on my part. It's your will if you wish to reply but I just don't have the time to reply to all these debates at the moment.

I'm sorry but I'm lifting my white flag on this particular argument.

Originally posted by Thousand
He tried using it against the exile and he may have used it against Traya. Oh, why doesn't he just cut Malak or Revan's connection to the force completely off? Or can they block that? I don't think so.
Well firstly lets break this down. Nihilus technique isnt a singular move, first he would cut you off the force which in his case, will kill you and his technique is to feed on the death it causes.

And if the force sever technique was so easy to use wouldnt nomi, luke and sidious be using it all the time on every opponent they face? Because it takes massive concentration to sever some one of the force and the only time nihilus would be able to do that is when he is at a distance.

Then id agree nihilus wins this case

Originally posted by Thousand

You can't say he was an average Jedi. You're going by what the Council said and this just doesn't cover it as proof. They could be emotionally charged words. You can't tell me an average Jedi just goes around defeating three Sith Lords and their assassins AND what may or may not canonically an entire temple of disciplined Sith students in one sitting ... Then tell me, what has the exile done which is impressive? Other than fighting 3 sith lords in which she had some advantages
Originally posted by Thousand

Just being an average Jedi. You cannot prove that Dooku can defeat Nihilus in every other aspect of the force! You're just choosing characters and coming out with random figures. I can, as far as we know dooku has higher force mastery level seeing that he studied the force for 70 over years. He would be a much better duelist since we know more about his dueling skills than nihilus whom may be completely unknown.

Originally posted by Thousand




She taught Revan, Nihilus and Sion? Not interesting enough?
Big deal, Vodo taught exar kun who is what? Far stronger than kreia yet vodo got owned by his apprentice twice
Originally posted by Thousand

Remember how you said Nihilus' technique could be blocked? A quote from Traya to debunk that:

"There are techniques within the Force against which there is no defense. I was cast down, stripped of my power, exiled."
Really? Has she ever heard of the fallanasi people?
The ones who are able to remove themselves from the force thus rendering nihilus ability useless? And if revan has greater knowledge than an entire archive im pretty sure he went to study other aspects of the force.

Tell me again, has kreia even heard of the fallanasi looping technique?

Because she does not know all aspects of the force, she hasnt even heard of the fallanasi technique which the fallanasi people has and she is a fallible source of information.




Originally posted by Thousand

Here's her manipulation score:

"She also tempted the Mandalorian leader, Mandalore, with knowledge of Revan's fate in order to ensure that he would not betray the Exile."

"She lied to the Exile at the beginning of their quest, claiming that the Jedi Council was responsible for the Exile's being severed from the Force. Kreia knew this would lead the Exile to seek out the surviving members of the Jedi Council, which would allow Kreia to kill them. On Onderon, Kreia lied to Colonel Tobin about the existence of many Jedi in a Jedi Academy on Telos. Kreia did this because she knew that Tobin would relay this to his true Master, Darth Nihilus, who would not be able to resist the chance to replenish himself and would recklessly assault Telos. This left Nihilus vulnerable to the assault of the Mandalorians and the Exile." Irrelevant to a duel, sidious again is a better manipulator yet did it help him in his fights against mace and yoda?



Originally posted by Thousand

"Kreia had the ability to wield three or more lightsabers in combat, holding each of them aloft with the Force, and having them fight with a will of their own. This ability is also associated with the ancient Dark Lord of the Sith Exar Kun." Ohh big deal wow she floats she lightsabers means shes a powerful sith lord, Intresting that exar kun has also yet to show this ability of floating 3 lightsabers.

Again using simple force techniques such as TK to destroy lightsabers is easy seeing that sidious easily ripped leias lightsaber apart with the force
Originally posted by Thousand

A power like Nihilus?

"Kreia possessed the ability to single-handedly strip others of the Force, utterly robbing their bodies of the mystical energy field." And was this in wookiepedia? Because i couldnt find it anywhere and as far as we all know it is just a simple force drain judging from what was shown in the cut scenes. Orange lightning which dispute it as a force drain.


Originally posted by Thousand

It goes both way, as I said previously. You haven't provided much for the likes of proof. And you have?


Originally posted by Thousand

I can't prove it! You're right! Here's the thing, though; You're trying to call them DEFINITELY weak, as you did in your last post. I'm not sitting here trying to call them 100% strong. Stop strawmanning.
Then quit acting like the ones he killed are strong






Originally posted by Thousand

Wow, he killed Mandalorian Crusaders. What does this have to do with attempted to destroy powerful Sith Lords? Hmm? Are you just throwing out random features? This possibly proves your fanboyism. No, but its the feat he performed and how he did it which is important, Who else besides revan could do that feat? Using the entire dark side force of malachor and using it to annihilate the entire mandalorian army? As far as i know exar kun and sidious are the only other ones capable of doing this.

I ask again, what indicates kreia is stronger than revan? Prove up or shut up


Originally posted by Thousand

It doesn't MATTER. You're strawmanning yet again. We were comparing Revan to Traya and saying Revan holds more knowledge than the archives is just a feature throw. No, its canon as stated by the novels, do we even know weather kreia knew more than the archives? There is nothing to indicate so
Originally posted by Thousand

What if Traya has more knowledge than those archives AND the Sith Archives?
And the fact is there is nothing to indicate she even knew the archives fully. Back this claim up please
Originally posted by Thousand

We're comparing the two, not the Jedi Archives and Revan .... TRAYA AND REVAN. Kreia does not know the archives fully most likely as nothing indicates she even knew most of it while revan knew more than both archives. Get the picture? No you dont


Originally posted by Thousand

The "Only advantage"? What ... Stripping Revan of the force is Nihilus' "Only advantage"? You're a funny guy. Simply because revan has a greater range of force attacks and a higher level of force master in other aspects than nihilus

Originally posted by Thousand

Regardless, how can you prove Revan defeats Nihilus in every other aspect? Is this the proof you speak of? If so, I'm unimpressed. see the above


Originally posted by Thousand

You're not following my logic at all. So.. Revan would mindlessly kill Traya and ignore her because YOU said so? Then revans gonna listen to her words because YOU say so? Your point holds no water at all. Obviously a jedi would know if his opponent would attempt to wear him down, seriously your an idiot beyond belief
Originally posted by Thousand

It is relevant to battle. It's an important feature of hers. Bingo, her manipulation level is irrelevant to battle

Originally posted by Thousand



Described by who? A Saber prodigy? Who said that as well?
Canon sources, cut scene, kotor, need i say more?

Originally posted by Thousand

I don't have proof that Traya is a better duelist but YET AGAIN I'm not trying to pass her off as a better duelist. Then you have conceded



Originally posted by Thousand

Your point? You act like Kenobi was a pushover, despite defeating the chosen one and killing Darth Maul. Besides, GG is completely different than Darth Sion. Stop comparing entities that are completely different. Christ almighty. "Becuz he killed jedi b4 means he is uber!!!!" thats your logic





Originally posted by Thousand

"He later duels with the Exile on Korriban, the dark forces of which make him unstoppable; the Exile has no choice but to flee."
Name the source please.


Originally posted by Thousand

The Exile left because Sion was UNMATCHED on Korriban because there was darkened energies. I told you earlier; When he is around darkened energies, it makes him practically immortal. And in how many planets this is possible? Some one of the same league can tear him apart being on the same planet. There are techniques which powerful force users know which can stop sion from rejoining his body parts after getting hit with a lightsaber.

This point is getting old so ill stop here












Originally posted by Thousand

You're missing the point here ... Immortal on Malachor, yes, but he is difficult to defeat in other places seeing as he can hold his body together with sheer force power.
This is what i have been trying to say sheesh. And some one who is in a higher level of the force can overwhelm him with the force rendering his ability useless hence why i brought luke into the picture





Originally posted by Thousand

Malak got stopped physically. He wasn't that powerful. Sion had to be disabled via mental persuasion because he could not PHYSICALLY be halted. Yet the databanks described malak as extremely powerful and near unstoppable in his fight against revan









Originally posted by Thousand

Where did I say this? Don't lie on top of everything else.
You hinted to me that she wielded 3 sabers means she is good. I can quote you

Originally posted by Thousand

The Exile had to personally attack the hilts with his own Lightsaber.
Thats because it would instantly slice the other saber apart making it useless

Originally posted by Thousand

That is the most ridiculous comparison I've ever seen. In my life. It had nothing to do with that sect of the debate by ANY means.
It does, you were fond of speaking that it took the exile many hits to break the other lightsaber, That was due to gameplay mechanics and all i was doing was using a metaphor





Originally posted by Thousand

It doesn't matter how STRONG they are. Manipulation wouldn't wear off because of someone's strength in the force. Jesus, what is wrong with you? Yet manipulation can be useless when the opponent doesnt listen or resists it

Originally posted by Darth Hord
I have had this discussion before and it was not a drain that Nihilus did other wise it would be orange since that is the color for the drain both in gameplay and cutscenes for both kotor games. Quite frankly it is still a mystery what happened to her. And the technique that Manslayer is referring to not really a fense the stops the drain. The technique loops you out of the force so u are basically not force sensitive then u could loop back in and be able to use the force.(manslayer correct me if i didnt explain it right) So he can't drain the force out of non force sensitives. AND PLEASE RESPOND TO ME AND JANUS'S POST FROM THE LAST PAGE OR TWO! Well basically nihilus technique isnt a singular move as many people mistake it to be.

He first cuts your off the force which will cause you to die(I believe, or he could attack and kill you with other powers after cutting you off the force) and after that he feeds on the death he causes.

Some one with the fallanasi technique would remove you from the force instantly and according to lightsnake, you can still use the force despite using the technique

Originally posted by Thousand
You can't just instantly loop back into the force. It takes training, as shown with the Exile.

The exile was cut off from the force it is a completely different situation then this technique. Which I take you are not familiar with.







If she was drained than Nihilus and Sion are retards for not killing her. And if the force was eliminated from her shouldn't regain through the course of the game because it is a diff. situation than what happened to the exile. And besides once u go to telos she does have force powers because i remember using them while on route to atris's hidden academy. And he has only one drain until proven otherwise by a source.

And I mean to disrespect at all to you Darth Sexy but thousand u say u have little time to respond but u responded to sexy who has entered in later than me and janus but we having arguing/waiting for your response from you for a while now.

Yes thousand that is Nihilus's only advantage if it one at all. You said Nihilus was a "physical beast" yet he has been in one known duel/battle and he lost it. So how exactly is he a physical beast. Meanwhile Revan has been in more duels and won. He defeated Madanlore the Ulitmate in single combat, he defeated Yusanis the legendary echini genral, he went on to defeat a star forged powered Bastilla 4 times and then he went on to defeat a Star Forged power Malak who is described as nearly unstoppable that should give an idea on Revan's skills in combat.

And now I will quote myself

I meant to no disrespect to u sexy my bad i just noticed the typo but i find it annoying that thousand says he has no time to respond yet he responds to u even if me and janus have been arguing with this guy form page 1 and still havent gotten a repsonse

You know we arent just arguing about nihilus here? Thousand has stated that all members of the triumvirate were greater than revan which i highly doubt and that was what i was arguing. Than thousand said nihilus is a physical beast which he hasnt shown anything to be one. I was arguing that Revan knew a greater variety of force powers than nihulis like the force storm and thought bomb. And even u have to agree that revan has shown more in duels than nihilus has which leads me to believe in a sabers only battle revan>nihilus. And just to point i did originally state that nihilus is probably the only one that could beat revan Sorry if it didnt sound like that. And u just need to calm down a little.

Then that is wrong.

Traya clearly acknowledges Revan as her superior and Sion knows nothing of techniques, as she also notes.



Do we even have any showings of Nihilus in a lightsaber duel?



I'm sorry.

I was a bit bitter from another forum where people aslo said Revan was stronger and no one listed a single feat to prove it. Gets aggrivating y aknow. When you spend a lot of time making proof and a case and the other side ignores it.

Sorry again. Didn't mean to take it out on you.

Originally posted by Nikkolas
Then that is wrong.
Traya clearly acknowledges Revan as her superior and Sion knows nothing of techniques, as she also notes.
agreed



We dont but thousand has called nihilus as "physical beast" when he hasnt shown much in that department. So i was posting what revan has done in duels.




And no problem man, i suggest u read the entire thread to know where me and others were coming from.

Originally posted by Nikkolas
lol

OMGZ0RRRRR

The Exile beat Nihilus!!!111

He must be SOOOO weak!!

But wait!

Obi-Wan Kenobi beat AnakiN Skywalker!!!!!

Anakin must be SO weak!
They aren't the same things Nihilus fanboy.


No, you've argued AGAINST it. Just because you claim you've proven something doesn't make it so.

And yet I've proven your Tobin remark is nothing more than a fallible 3rd party character.


GOlly Gee what an argument. Because Character X hasn't shown to perform the same feat as Character Y, character X MUST be inferior. Did Nihilus perform a thought bomb? Did Nihilus have techniques that would make other sith shit their pants? Techniques that surpass all the teachings on Korriban? Hell no.


Except nothing is known about the jedi on Katarr. THere may have been 5 of them for all you know.



You can quote all of this nonsense but in the end the Exile beat him because she was a wound in the force, which is the way to beat Nihilus..





Except if everything died when he spoke, then Traya, Visas, Sion, and all of of Nihilus slaves would be dead. Try again.
Furthermore I have proven that it is more than likely Revan also knows this force eating technique, which could have been the one Bane was terrified of. Revan plundered Korriban and the cities of Malachor V.. It's a logical conclusion.


Explain why we have to see Revan perform feats for us to logically deduce he is uber powerful? Revan isn't Nihilus, he isn't Kun. He doesn't go in guns blasting. He plundered the CITIES ON MALACHOR V while Nihilus didn't, and Nihilus learned one technique. IT stands that Revan possibly knew Nihilus' technique, which explains why his teachings surpassed all of the crap on Korriban..


Um I have...

Um, yes they are. They are both fights with a thing called circumstance which renders the victor pointless.

Obi-Wan beat Anakin not because he was superior but because Anakin was not in his right mind. Plus Obi knew him very well.

Exile beat Nihilus because Nihilus was double-weakened plus the Exile had 2 people helping her, one of them an apprentice of the person the Exile was fighting.



And yet, you didn't prove it wrong. So..you proved nothing except to say you'll ignore the quote and say it's wrong based on your own bias.



I can see where you're coming from.

I mean...just because Nihilus shows more power than Revan doesn't mean anything.

We shouldn't use feats and showings to prove things.

I've seen the light.



Did Revan?

In fact, Nihilus did something more powerful than a Thought Bomb all on his own power.



I dunno.

Is a guy on a ship in orbit killing a planet and every thing on it with a word an ability that would make Sith shit their pants?

But who would find that terrifying?



A. List me these "teachings on Korriban". Do any of them show the ability to kill an entire planet's inhabitants and make the whole planet an echo in the Force?

B. Did Revan show this technique you speak of?



So now you're attacking the feat 'cause there weren't that many Jedi on the planet?

I mean, when you have to lower yourself to sayin g"but there wasn't even that many people on the planet he killed!" it shows you're really reaching.



Exactly. The Exile beat Nihilus because he was double-weakened and the Exile had two helpers.

Also, you conveniently skipped the part I showed where Nihilus, with a gesture, had the Exile at his mercy.



Take it up with what the comic depicts.

It's not my duty to argue with someone who blatantly ignores canon.



Except it's nothing more than baseless theory. Thus, I don't care. I deal with facts.



Because none of the quotes you people use are quantifiable.

They do not say "he is the strongest Sith to this date or ever"

They do not list the abilities he has.

They just say he's strong and knows crap.

What crap? That's not clarified and is thus worthless.

We don't have a what or a how.

How can you say Revan is the strongest without an actual detailing of what he can do?



Um...Nihilus didn't want to...that's like saying Person A beat up a a3-year-old and you didn't. It's not a feat. It just shows one person didnt' bother.



STOP EFFING LYING.

For God's Sake DS, you just quotes from a list of abilities and you said Nihilus only knows one technique and you've been parroting that lie for months.

Originally posted by Nikkolas
Um, yes they are. They are both fights with a thing called circumstance which renders the victor pointless.

Obi-Wan beat Anakin not because he was superior but because Anakin was not in his right mind. Plus Obi knew him very well.

Exile beat Nihilus because Nihilus was double-weakened plus the Exile had 2 people helping her, one of them an apprentice of the person the Exile was fighting.
No. The Exile beat Nihilus because Nihilus needs to feed to survive, and the Exile was a wound in the force, creating a reverse affect against Nihilus. This is NOT a circumstance, therefore it has no comparison to the other fight. Nihilus would NEVER defeat the Exile if he tried to drain her.




Wrong fanboy, I've proven that your quotes are coming from fallible 3rd party sources and most of them are contradictory with what actually happened.




Fact: Revan plundered all of Korriban's secrets and all of Malachor V's secrets. To say that he has LESS knowledge than Nihilus is not only illogical, but fanboyism on your part.



Show me where the thought bomb requires more than 1 person. As I recall Revan was doing force storms all by himself, whereas Bane used the entire BOD..



Except I've disproved your "with a word" theory. Stop adding it..



Well gee, considering the technique DERIVED FROM THE ANCIENT SITH, YES. Revan plundered Korriban, where the greatest of the ancient sith were buried, where the technique was created. Revan plundered Malachor V, where Nihilus learned the technique. But all of a sudden he doesn't know it and Nihilus does.


Why would he have to show it to know it? That's like saying Palpatine has to show his instakill for people to think he has it.




No, I corrected your exaggeration.



Except Nihilus lost because the Exile was a wound and when he tried feeding on the wound, he became weak. His companions had nothing to do with it. Stop making excuses for your hero.


Apparently it's not your job to argue period, since you have no idea what canon policy is. I'd stop right here if I were you.




Except it's not baseless just because you don't want to believe it fanboy.




Where did I ever say Revan was the strongest? In fact that only thing I've ever stated was Revan had more knowledge than anyone save for Palpatine, and that he knew of most ancient sith techniques.




Right..




I think I've cleared this point before and yet you act like I haven't. One technique refers to his one special technique. We've argued time and time again that force choke is a basic technique, and that his TK is more than rivaled by Yoda.

It is not exactly baseless i did put reason into my thinking when i said that, but Im not saying what it could be that the attack that bane was afraid but im fairly positive it was not the thought bomb as i said here




I would also say that it would make little sense for Bane to give them an attack that he was scarred of because it must have been a threat to him if it were used at all and bane didnt seem that scared of the thought bomb to me. And he felt that he was the one that need to reorganize the sith so he wouldnt give them an attack that could be used against him.

dude is it just me or did nikkolas go on 3 forums and under cut and dissagree on each of them?......huh.

Yep. So, like I said, Exile beat Nihilus by 3-on-1 and Nihilus being double-weakened.

Oh and of course, Nihilus could have killed her effortlessly.



So, like I said, he's canon. You're not.



From Wookie
"Formed through an ancient ritual requiring the combined will of many powerful Sith Lords"



Shown canon > what you think.



Quote saying what he did was derived from the Ancient Sith/

You've said this many times but never proved it.



Since when does Palpatine have an instakill?



Nope. As canon shows, he killed every living being on a planet and the planet itself effortlessly.



Yep. Like I proved, he was double-weakened and still was pwning 3 opponents.



I know it's not my theories and opinion.

Unlike you who has nothing for anything you say.



Then PROVE it.

SHOW ME the quote saying it was the drain.

If not, IT IS BASELESS.

Either put up or shut up.

Show me why Revan could beat Nihilus. Show me how he is more powerful.

Show me how he is superior to a guy who kills planets with a word as seen in canon. Show me how Revan is stronger than a guy who lifts a fleet from a gravity well as said by canon.

nikkolas u and ds have used what i said in the wrong context.See my post 2 above yours for what i originally said.

This is why I don't argue with Nikkolas. His logic consists of "Show me a quote where character X is stated better than Character Y or it's not true". Please Nikkolas, nobody is going to dig up something that specific because you want it. I've already proven through logical deduction that Revan knowing Nihilus' technique was not a possibility, but more than likely, a certainty. Now stop bitching.

Well, pardon me.

I mean...I'm really unethical today.

First I bring up showings of power as evidence.

Then I ask you to back up your claims.

I'm being downright ridiculous!

I gave you my evidence based on logical conclusion, while you gave a bunch of 3rd party crap. Again I ask you fanboy. How is it illogical to deduce that Revan, who plundered ALL of the cities of Malachor V, doesn't know the technique that Nihilus learned WHILE BEING ON THE SURFACE FOR A SHORT TIME. Argue that one fanboy.

Because techniques require power.

Darth Maul is not gonna pull off a Force Storm, even if he knows it.

If Revan knew the technique, he might not be strong enough to use it.

Or can you provide a quote or action that shows Revan being stronger in the Force than Nihilus?

Originally posted by Nikkolas
Because techniques require power.

And revan was described to be the strongest force user of his era

Proof? Source?

Anything?

Was this made in KOTOR I, before Nihilus was even thought of or in power?

Originally posted by Nikkolas
Because techniques require power.

Darth Maul is not gonna pull off a Force Storm, even if he knows it.

If Revan knew the technique, he might not be strong enough to use it.

Or can you provide a quote or action that shows Revan being stronger in the Force than Nihilus?

Yet again. Nihilus own technique, force storm, thought bomb. The fact that Nihilus was a wound in the force which amplified his abilities, has no bearing on his natural talents. If Revan knows Nihilus' technique (which is certainly logical), then he is more powerful than Nihilus, because his set of offensive weapons is superior to Nihilus.

Originally posted by Nikkolas
Proof? Source?

Anything?

Was this made in KOTOR I, before Nihilus was even thought of or in power? So the whole "Heart of the Force" jive that Kreia was giving out was nothing more than a glow stick at a rave, right? Ok, chief, if that's what ya say..

You say this a llot and you've never been able to prove it once.

Drop it or provide evidence 'cause I can safely say you've NEVER given one piece of proof that this is true.



I suppose so. Kreia also said Nihilus' had power so vast, he could see the universe completely different than others and that the future of the Galaxy was a black void before his hunger and power.

It is also quite obvious Kreia favors Revan above all her students, mainly because they both a) beat the living shit out of her and b) they both succumbed to power and hatred while Revan did not.

Originally posted by Nikkolas
It is also quite obvious Kreia favors Revan above all her students, mainly because they both a) beat the living shit out of her and b) they both succumbed to power and hatred while Revan did not. No she favored the exile just as much as revan (sion was jealous of this)
And the exile did not succomb to power and hatred either.

Well, we were just talking about Nihilus/Sion/Revan in terms of Kreia's quotes on them.

It's pretty obvious she favored Revan among these two particular pupils.

So because she spoke so highly of Revan, she favored him more? Or was it because he WAS power? Stop arguing subjectively. And if you want to get specific, she favored the exile because the exile represented her own goals.

Originally posted by Nikkolas
Well, we were just talking about Nihilus/Sion/Revan in terms of Kreia's quotes on them.

It's pretty obvious she favored Revan among these two particular pupils.

Those to yes but the exile was her apprentice too. But she did talk about the wonders of Nihilus and her quotes about him seem=her quotes to revan to me

She favors the Exile over everybody else, learn to accept it. She thinks very highly of Revan's abilities.

DS:



To be fair to DS, Nihilus' bizarre nature makes him able to feed on the Force of others so that he's more like a cosmic force a la Galactus than he is a Sith Lord. There's nothing specifically that states his Force ability was enhanced by his state, but Kreia does say that his very nature and abilities could be the end of the Force itself in time.

This at least implies that his feeding - a unique part of his makeup- sets him apart and above other Force users. Hence why only another wound could weaken him enough to be defeated.



When is Nihilus ever shown using a thought bomb? Or a Force storm? The only time we see Nihilus use the Force is either to manipulate things via telekinesis or to feed upon them via some jacked up version of Force drain.



This is doubtful. While Kreia needs the Exile and molds her into a more formidable force for her own agenda, when it comes down to it she's using the Exile as a weapon against her own apprentices and to eventually go and aid her first and favored one. Kreia knew that Revan was power, that he was her star pupil and favored subtle, manipulating ways. She knew he could shape the galaxy, as did Bastila. The Exile is a natural leader, and one capable of much. But never does Kreia speak of the Exile in such revered tones.
Nikkolas:




Very true.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
DS:



To be fair to DS, Nihilus' bizarre nature makes him able to feed on the Force of others so that he's more like a cosmic force a la Galactus than he is a Sith Lord. There's nothing specifically that states his Force ability was enhanced by his state, but Kreia does say that his very nature and abilities could be the end of the Force itself in time.
You're right but as I've stated, it's illogical to think that Revan, who was pretty much above and beyond everyone of his time, didn't learn the technique that Nihilus learned, while he pillaged entire underground cities on Malachor V, whereas Nihilus didn't.


I agree with this. The technique DID derive from the ancient sith but how Nihilus came about it is unknown. It doesn't help at all that he's a wound.




I think you misread that. I stated that Revan more than likely knows NIhilus own technique, the force storm, thought bomb, and whatever else the ancient sith knew.

I addressed this in the other thread.



Actually, Kreia does mention that he acquires the knowledge from Malachor V, but that he masters it to a degree unheard of because of him being a wound.



Perhaps. Perhaps not. There's no canon evidence of Revan's upper limits, and surprisingly little evidence of his Force usage. His power was considerable, for him to be one of only two successful Force users who manned and controlled the Star Forge. However, I wouldn't put all my eggs in this basket. We simply just don't know enough to make this claim.

Possibly. What we COULD surmise is that Revan canonically knew more "Terrible ancient sith" techniques than Nihilus, as Nihilus basically had one. But I guess if the logical deduction isn't admissible then Revan's abilities are for the most part, unknown.

In my extensive research on every canon source involving Nihilus, I have not seen one quote saying his pwoers were amplified by his nature.

As far as we know, like Janus said, it could have been his mastery of the power that made him a wound in the first place.

There are numerous theories on Nihilus. I think Janus even once speculated that he was the "dark side" of the Exile after the Exile was made a wound herself.

Nihilus' nature as a wound makes more sense than the Exile's, though. A wound in the Force is a place where there has been mass loss of life. And we are told constantly in Nihilus' wake and presence, "all life dies."

True. With the quote in line, it's possible Revan had more knowledge, and certainly more time to access it seeing as he was the first one there. However, to what extent remains to be clarified upon.



Logical deduction is admissible, but inconclusive.

For example, we can deduce that Revan was a Sith Lord, that he had first access to Malachor V, and that his techniques later on were simply amazing to Bane of the Brotherhood. We can also deduce that from this same source, Nihilus came to his ability. However, there remains a few things we cannot conclusively prove, despite the overall deduction:

1. We cannot conclusively say what those techniques are, besides the Thought Bomb.

2. We cannot say if Revan has truly mastered them or applied them; simply that he had access to them and that he knew of them, enough that he could put the info into a holocron.

3. That in perhaps the Sith-equivalent of Ossus Library, Revan was able to study and scrutinize every single source while waging war, whereas Nihilus who had spent his apprenticeship on the planet, was somehow less able, or was unable to use different sources, etc.

4. We can not also conclusively decide upon where Revan and Nihilus sit when it comes to upper limits of the Force. Nihilus' shown instances set him higher, but Revan is still relatively unknown for the most part. I personally blame the game makers for using this lure of mystery and uberness ploy, as all we can do is make assumptions based on hearsay and feats not described like as in a novel or movie.

This is true. I still think it makes a lot of sense, though Legacy's appearance of Nihilus separate might contradict this. I hope that perhaps Legacy is overridden into N-canon and the rest of us can go back to happy days.

We know full well Nihilus was, at one point, a Jedi Knight who was consumed by Malachor and severed himself from the Force, in effect becoming what the Exile could've been

So he was on Malachor too like the Exile? And disconnected himself like the Exile?

That doesn't seem to make much sense to me.

If Kreia had Nihilus, why did she think the Exile was so special?

She had already seen and had an apprentice who lived without being connected to the Force.

Yea I used to think Nihilus was just a dark side version of the Exile, or rather what the exile would have become if he turned dark side. And I also agree that they need to make Legacy N-canon, because it is a great storyline, unless you consider the Star Wars concept.

The exile could live without the force, Nihilus can't.

Because, Nihilus surrendered to the hunger...he became less and more than human.

But they both are wounds in the Force.

How can the Exile live without the Force and Nihilus can not?

Way I understood it, the Exile steadily regained her Force presence through bonds with other people.

Except when the exile became the exile, she ceased to live within the force, and then regained it. This is why Kreia sides with her and not Nihilus, because Nihilus cannot live without the force.

Kreia admires the Exile's dedication and choice to live without the Force, since Kreia herself seems to despise the Force and its machinations. However, DS and LS are correct: Nihilus cannot live without the Force; he must consume it. So while he and the Exile share on common characteristic, they both approached it in different ways. Whereas the Exile can regain her Force ability through bonds and aid and influence others, Nihilus can only strip down and dominate those he bonds with.

Strange though.

If the Exile chose to disconnect from the Force and become a wound....

Did Nihilus choose to become a wound who only exists by eating the Force?

Weird choice.

We don't know that Nihilus had a choice. He was like the exile in the fact that he just was...

There's some hinting that Nihilus embraces what he does initially out of hatred for the Jedi. But once he becomes a sort of Force feeder, he seems to lack any direction.

"You have taken this trophy from the remains of Darth Nihilus - it is the last surviving piece of the beast who died and was reborn in the shattered world of Malachor V. By taking it from him, you have gained a stronger tie to the Force.

So that's the source saying he was born on Malachor like the Exile...hm.

What's all this stuff about Nihilus dying?

Kreia says he is "already dead."

He is more "presence than flesh" according to Visas.

And the Legayc Comics say he escapd death by sealing his consciousness in his armor.

I think Nihilus' origin is one big continuity error.

i think it could mean that he was present during the battle of malachor (as a jedi) and should have died when the exile ordered the mass shadwo generator to be used by he somehow was able to survive it.

Nihilus was a Sith Lord who had a large degree of Power. It's safe to assume that as a Sith Lord, he didn't just know one technique of the force. He SHOWED us that he could use one technique, yes ... He also had the ability to force push and he was able capable of dueling.

We don't know how good or bad he was at dueling but nonetheless he dueled.

Originally posted by Thousand
Nihilus was a Sith Lord who had a large degree of Power. It's safe to assume that as a Sith Lord, he didn't just know one technique of the force. He SHOWED us that he could use one technique, yes ... He also had the ability to force push and he was able capable of dueling.

We don't know how good or bad he was at dueling but nonetheless he dueled. No ones denying the fact he has more than one power technique

and we don't have anything on his dueling skills. But from what have seen from the guy he doesnt seem to be the type to practice at all. All he wants to do is feed is hunger. Revan has been in more duels (and i know about the gameplay not canon stuff so dont bother) but he still won duels. which gives us a small idea that he had experience and obviously some degree of skill and since nihilus was only in 1 known duel it is illogical so say he is really good or a physical beast as you once said thousand.

He has many techniques but he has only one which makes him seem uber powerful.

He used one that makes him seem uber powerful. The other force maneuvers he can utilize are either extremely powerful or weak. We don't really know.

Regardless, when you have one powerful force offense that can literally eradicate the force ... Who the hell needs other powers?

Originally posted by Thousand
He used one that makes him seem uber powerful. The other force maneuvers he can utilize are either extremely powerful or weak. We don't really know.

Exactly so saying his other force powers (cept his uber tk) is strong is just plain stupid . When we know nothing its like arguing the revan has the force killer thingy or whatever u want to call it we can specultae and make theories and no matter ho wlogical they sound we dont have definite proof.

Originally posted by Darth Hord
Exactly so saying his other force powers (cept his uber tk) is strong is just plain stupid . When we know nothing its like arguing the revan has the force killer thingy or whatever u want to call it we can specultae and make theories and no matter ho wlogical they sound we dont have definite proof.

It's not stupid to assume such a thing. Ad Hominem, BTW. It's safe to assume because one power is strong, the others are. You'd think it would effectively be "stupid" to assume that because one power is strong, the rest are weak.

Originally posted by Thousand
It's not stupid to assume such a thing. Ad Hominem, BTW. It's safe to assume because one power is strong, the others are. You'd think it would effectively be "stupid" to assume that because one power is strong, the rest are weak. I agree with you but not in all cases, bastila has very powerful BM but can the same be said about her other powers? As far as we have seen, its a no

While i do agree however nihilus has demonstrated quite incredible TK as to lift the ravager which is around the same size as an ISD. But seems that yodas tk and sidious TK eclipse his

What manslayer said, and the bastilla battle meditation was a good example. And maybe i need to clarify for what i said,i mean that i serously doubt that every other force attack he has will be on the same level as his tk and force killer and being that they are te only known attacks we dont even know if he has other great ones.

This is illogical Thousand. You cannot assume that because one power is strong, so are the rest. Character X might have mastered force ability 1, but that in no way means he mastered force ability 2. That's pure hearsay.