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They start the fight over New York.

Who wins?

SA 17 - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Android_17#Dragon_Ball_GT

Super 17 was only dangerous because he could absorb ki, Superman doesn't use ki to fight, so therefore his one trick is useless.

So are we really gonna have EVERYONE in the z universe fight superman?

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Super 17 was only dangerous because he could absorb ki, Superman doesn't use ki to fight, so therefore his one trick is useless.

Almost true, he was dangerous in combat from the get, and he became more powerful as goku dumbly fed him energy.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Super 17 was only dangerous because he could absorb ki, Superman doesn't use ki to fight, so therefore his one trick is useless. But it is possible that he could absorb HV.

Also, he utterly humiliated everyone as soon as he was made.
He isn't useless even if he can't absorb ki.
In fact, he got destroyed because he was absorbing ki...

Originally posted by ExtraMision5555
So are we really gonna have EVERYONE in the z universe fight superman? Obviously...
He's a good benchmark.

Originally posted by Harry Fingerman
But it is possible that he could absorb HV.

He's never absorbed solar energy. There's no evidence to suggest he could.



He got destroyed because he got distracted.

What if Superman vibrated inside of him and ripped him apart from the inside?

Originally posted by Harry Fingerman
But it is possible that he could absorb HV.

Also, he utterly humiliated everyone as soon as he was made.
He isn't useless even if he can't absorb ki.
In fact, he got destroyed because he was absorbing ki...

Obviously...
He's a good benchmark.


hahahahaha

fair. Well atleast you picked a good character and yes, he did embarass everyone from day 1. I think he'd beat superman into submission, lets be real, Supermans fighting ability is llaughable when compared to literally anyone in the z universe.

Originally posted by ExtraMision5555
hahahahaha

fair. Well atleast you picked a good character and yes, he did embarass everyone from day 1. I think he'd beat superman into submission, lets be real, Supermans fighting ability is llaughable when compared to literally anyone in the z universe.

And how do you draw that conclusion? DBZ characters stopped using actual martial arts sometime around the end of the Saiyan saga, instead resorting to just random high - speed punching and kicking and ki blasts.

SSJ Goku level Freeza could destroy a planet...Super Android was stronger than SSJ4 Goku and normal level Goku before the Freeza fight, before Namek was training with a hill.
And SSJ4 Goku was a hell of a lot stronger than Goku before Namek.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
He's never absorbed solar energy. There's no evidence to suggest he could.



He got destroyed because he got distracted. Ki is energy...
I'm just judging off of what he absorbs... a theoretical approach is needed.

He was absorbing energy when he got destroyed though.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
And how do you draw that conclusion? DBZ characters stopped using actual martial arts sometime around the end of the Saiyan saga, instead resorting to just random high - speed punching and kicking and ki blasts.

At what point in the DBZ saga did Sayans Cease to train? That doesnt make sense. Just because they didnt LITERALLY show it in the show anymore? Thats not a very good television show is it? After a while, theirs no need to show the details of thier training. But theyre constantly getting stronger through combat, and through training. Not only that, it doesnt even apply to Super 17 becuase he was re-constructed from his former self. kind of. Look at what they were donig at LOW levels. Destroying planets PRE super sayan levels, super 17 is leauges beyond that.

Originally posted by Rewmac
SSJ Goku level Freeza could destroy a planet...Super Android was stronger than SSJ4 Goku and normal level Goku before the Freeza fight, before Namek was training with a hill.
And SSJ4 Goku was a hell of a lot stronger than Goku before Namek.

GT isn't even canon to DBZ (it wasn't written by Akira Toriyama and was just made by the studio after he quit). Going by the actual feats displayed, GT characters are weaker than DBZ characters.

Originally posted by Harry Fingerman
Ki is energy...
I'm just judging off of what he absorbs... a theoretical approach is needed.

He was absorbing energy when he got destroyed though.

It's a specific type of energy.

If I have a solar panel on my house that can absorb the sun's energy, does that mean it can absorb the kinetic energy from a rock falling on it too?

Originally posted by Endless Mike
GT isn't even canon to DBZ (it wasn't written by Akira Toriyama and was just made by the studio after he quit). Going by the actual feats displayed, GT characters are weaker than DBZ characters. So if someone else writes Superman than the original writers those aren't canon? Pleeeeaaaseeee...

It is stated that GT characters are more powerful than DBZ characters.

Originally posted by ExtraMision5555
At what point in the DBZ saga did Sayans Cease to train? That doesnt make sense. Just because they didnt LITERALLY show it in the show anymore? Thats not a very good television show is it? After a while, theirs no need to show the details of thier training. But theyre constantly getting stronger through combat, and through training. Not only that, it doesnt even apply to Super 17 becuase he was re-constructed from his former self. kind of. Look at what they were donig at LOW levels. Destroying planets PRE super sayan levels, super 17 is leauges beyond that.

I never said they ceased training, I said they stopped using actual martial arts techniques in their fighting, and just instead resorted to random fighting. Superman has 1000 years of combat experience when he was trapped in Valhalla.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
GT isn't even canon to DBZ (it wasn't written by Akira Toriyama and was just made by the studio after he quit). Going by the actual feats displayed, GT characters are weaker than DBZ characters.

Wow. Why do people say this?

Ill happily post the credits of DBZGT. Youl see akira toriyamas name along with the rest of the cast with the title "originial scrypt"

He didnt write it in its entireity, but since wwhen does the originial writer have to write it for it to be in continuity? Stop reading comics then, Creaters die all the time. Well not literally but you get my point.

DBZGT is cannon. Those who deny it are simply scared of the rediculously high power-houses in GT, and are looking for an easy way out.

why on earth did i spell script with a y

Originally posted by Rewmac
So if someone else writes Superman than the original writers those aren't canon? Pleeeeaaaseeee...

It is stated that GT characters are more powerful than DBZ characters.

No, it's declared canon by the company.

And it was stated that they were more powerful than the earlier versions in their continuity, but there are so many inconsistencies that it's obviously an alternate universe and not canon to DBZ.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
I never said they ceased training, I said they stopped using actual martial arts techniques in their fighting, and just instead resorted to random fighting. Superman has 1000 years of combat experience when he was trapped in Valhalla.

Wait, so your telling me, a man has been training in martial arts for his entire life. One day, he gets in a street fight with a casual male. He drops his 20 years of martial training... to risk his life? What kind of logic is that?

Originally posted by ExtraMision5555
Wow. Why do people say this?

Ill happily post the credits of DBZGT. Youl see akira toriyamas name along with the rest of the cast with the title "originial scrypt"

He contributed a few character designs, but that's it. He didn't actually write the stories.



What "ridiculously high power - houses"? They have practically no feats to back up any of their hyperbole. SSJ4 Goku struggled to lift a building and got his leg impaled on a flagpole. GT has so many plot holes it looks like it was written by a 13 - year - old.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
No, it's declared canon by the company.


LOL

ARE YOU BEING SERIOUS??

Originally posted by ExtraMision5555
Wait, so your telling me, a man has been training in martial arts for his entire life. One day, he gets in a street fight with a casual male. He drops his 20 years of martial training... to risk his life? What kind of logic is that?

Don't ask me, ask the writers who wrote that very thing happening.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
He contributed a few character designs, but that's it. He didn't actually write the stories.





You can tell yourself its not cannon, it wont change the fact that it is. So do you write the rules of "cannondom"? Please, what are more rules?

Riddle me this: if its not cannon. What is it?



?

And who said it was that?

So Omega Shenron is weaker than Kai-O-Ken Goku? 313

Originally posted by ExtraMision5555
LOL

ARE YOU BEING SERIOUS??

Um.... yes?

The copyright holder declares what is canon.

In the case of anime/manga, the original creator of the characters (usually the mangaka) is the copyright holder. In the case of comic books, the company (Marvel/DC/Image/Wildstorm/etc.) is the copyright holder.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Um.... yes?

The copyright holder declares what is canon.

In the case of anime/manga, the original creator of the characters (usually the mangaka) is the copyright holder. In the case of comic books, the company (Marvel/DC/Image/Wildstorm/etc.) is the copyright holder. I they don't have legal rights they couldn't have done the whole anime...

Originally posted by ExtraMision5555
You can tell yourself its not cannon, it wont change the fact that it is. So do you write the rules of "cannondom"? Please, what are more rules?

Riddle me this: if its not cannon. What is it?



?

And who said it was that?

Burden of proof isn't on me to prove it's not canon. You're asking me to prove a negative.

Find an official source that says it is canon.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Um.... yes?

The copyright holder declares what is canon.

In the case of anime/manga, the original creator of the characters (usually the mangaka) is the copyright holder. In the case of comic books, the company (Marvel/DC/Image/Wildstorm/etc.) is the copyright holder.

I challenge you to go to ONE official source that denys GT as cannon.


Do it.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Burden of proof isn't on me to prove it's not canon. You're asking me to prove a negative.

Find an official source that says it is canon.

Whats proof? A stamp of approval?

A sign on the credits that says

"This is cannon!!" in big golden letters?



Honestly, i have never laughed so hard at an honest post on these forums.

Originally posted by Rewmac
I they don't have legal rights they couldn't have done the whole anime...

Because he gave the studio permission

The anime is an adaptation

That is why, to use another anime as an example, the Naruto anime has hundreds of filler episodes that were never in the manga, and don't fit anywhere in the timeline, they're not canon.

Originally posted by ExtraMision5555
I challenge you to go to ONE official source that denys GT as cannon.


Do it.

Burden of proof is on you. I don't have to prove a negative.

Originally posted by ExtraMision5555
Whats proof? A stamp of approval?

A sign on the credits that says

"This is cannon!!" in big golden letters?



Honestly, i have never laughed so hard at an honest post on these forums.

A statement from Toriyama or someone representing him

http://www.myfavoritegames.com/
dragonball-z/info/Interviews/Interviews-AkiraToriyama.htm

I think if GT wasnt cannon, he MIGHT have said it here, maybe its just me though.

I can't believe this stuff...Who cares what they have done and what's canon. In the show they were stronger. I don't care about the whole mystical background of the companies and shit. It's freaking DBZ...

Originally posted by ExtraMision5555
http://www.myfavoritegames.com/
dragonball-z/info/Interviews/Interviews-AkiraToriyama.htm

I think if GT wasnt cannon, he MIGHT have said it here, maybe its just me though.

"Bad request"

Also you can't say use someone's lack of mentioning something in an interview as proof that it's not true. That's just stupid, he can't say everything he knows in one interview. Only if he was asked the question is it canon or not could that be a reliable source.

Superman beats them all.

DBZ threads are stupid.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
"Bad request"

Also you can't say use someone's lack of mentioning something in an interview as proof that it's not true. That's just stupid, he can't say everything he knows in one interview. Only if he was asked the question is it canon or not could that be a reliable source.

Despite the fact that im presenting cold facts, you continue to deny it. You lose.

"Dragon Ball GT (ドラゴンボールGT, Doragon Bōru Jī Tī?) is the sequel to the anime Dragon Ball Z. "

The burden is now on you.
Ive given you three sources, from rules that YOU made up.
Find me the lips, hand, from akira toriyama, that states

"I do not wish to include Dragonball GT in the official cannon of the dragonball universe."

Ive proven myself -- you havent, AND you made up phony rules of "cannondom." Who does that?

Originally posted by Rewmac
I can't believe this stuff...Who cares what they have done and what's canon. In the show they were stronger. I don't care about the whole mystical background of the companies and shit. It's freaking DBZ...

You can't use non - canon material to reference canon material to determine the power of characters. That's like using that stupid What If comic where Wolverine beat Surfer to say that Wolverine is above Herald level.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
It has an entrance on IMDB? That's your proof?

All that proves is that it exists.

No, its under Akira Toriyama's filmography -- under "writer."

I love busting people!!!

Originally posted by Jack Harkness
Superman beats them all.

DBZ threads are stupid. Don't judge threads after yourself...

Originally posted by ExtraMision5555
Despite the fact that im presenting cold facts, you continue to deny it. You lose.

"Dragon Ball GT (ドラゴンボールGT, Doragon Bōru Jī Tī?) is the sequel to the anime Dragon Ball Z. "

The burden is now on you.

Find me the lips, hand, from akira toriyama, that states

"I do not wish to include Dragonball GT in the official cannon of the dragonball universe."

Ive proven myself -- you havent, AND you made up phony rules of "cannondom." Who does that?

It's an unofficial sequel, made by the animation studio. It has too many plot holes to be canon. For example, Vegeta grew a mustache, but he said in DBZ that Saiya-jin's hair doesn't ever change after they are born. Gohan's mystic powerup went away for no reason. Pilaf and his assistants were resurrected without any explanation. The black star dragonballs were never mentioned before and just appeared out of nowhere. Goku's tail grew back after it had been surgically removed. Etc.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
It's an unofficial sequel, made by the animation studio. It has too many plot holes to be canon. For example, Vegeta grew a mustache, but he said in DBZ that Saiya-jin's hair doesn't ever change after they are born. Gohan's mystic powerup went away for no reason. Pilaf and his assistants were resurrected without any explanation. The black star dragonballs were never mentioned before and just appeared out of nowhere. Goku's tail grew back after it had been surgically removed. Etc.

Shal we list the discrepencies in superman that had to be ret-conned?

Since when does a discrepency create a non-cannon piece of work?

Again, your makeing up rules and its very entertaining.

Originally posted by ExtraMision5555
No, its under Akira Toriyama's filmography -- under "writer."

I love busting people!!!

Except he didn't write it - Toei did.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon_Ball#Relation_to_the_Anime

Originally posted by ExtraMision5555
Shal we list the discrepencies in superman that had to be ret-conned?

Since when does a discrepency create a non-cannon piece of work?

Again, your makeing up rules and its very entertaining.

The fact is that the writers ignored continuity and never gave any explanation for it. Toriyama didn't write the story, he only contributed character designs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon_Ball_GT

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Except he didn't write it - Toei did.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon_Ball#Relation_to_the_Anime

You think i didnt know that?

Lets get a few facts in order. Toei dominantly wrote Dragonball GT. Thats not a secret. So whatever "hidden knoweldge" you think you've unleashed was actually plain as day.

Second, thier is no "authority" in determining whats cannon except the original creator himself. Akira Toriyama has NOT ONCE, publicly or even privately declared that Dbzgt, was not cannon. Also, the show itself gives us no reason to believe that the show was not cannon. It continues where DBZ left off, the characters dont have wildly different personalities as we do find in "alternate takes" of popular shows/comics etc.

And you say because it has discreprencys that its not cannon? is that your best argument? Based off of a set of rules that apparently only you know about? Do you see what your typeing? Why would a discrepency invalidate a Television show? IN that case, half of the transformers series shuoldent even exist and Megatron should be an Autobot. It just means the writers didnt do thier homework, or were lazy.





So ill leave it at this. Theris no reason to convince you that GT is cannon, because it is. You dont have to believe it, you are also welcome to not believe in a slew of other facts such as gravity, Rainfall, and house-pets.


GT is cannon, their is not a SINGLE, NOT ONE, shard of evidence from the creator that implies otherwise. Especially, when the "golden rule of cannon" was made up by Endless Mike on the KMC forums.

Originally posted by ExtraMision5555
You think i didnt know that?

Lets get a few facts in order. Toei dominantly wrote Dragonball GT. Thats not a secret. So whatever "hidden knoweldge" you think you've unleashed was actually plain as day.

Second, thier is no "authority" in determining whats cannon except the original creator himself. Akira Toriyama has NOT ONCE, publicly or even privately declared that Dbzgt, was not cannon.

And that doesn't automatically make it canon by default. In fact it's non - canon until proven otherwise, or else any random movie/special/video game would be canon unless he said it wasn't.



Really? Picollo acts like an idiot instead of intelligent (attacking Baby up front for no reason while he is weaker), Goku acts like an idiot and a little kid (even though he was turned into a little kid he still has the mind of an adult), etc.



Nothing declares it is canon.



Obviously. Toriyama wasn't even involved in the story, so in order for it to be canon, he or someone representing him would have to state for it to be canon.



Except those can be independently verified. GT's canonicty cannot. 99% of DBZ fans I've met do not accept GT as canon.



Burden of proof is always on the positive.



It's called simple logic. I don't need to prove a negative, you need to prove the positive.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_proof

now that we've gotten wildly off topic

superman loses

How? What's 17 done that puts him above Superman.

Originally posted by Galvaclaw
How? What's 17 done that puts him above Superman.

Knock trees over

Superman Ftw, and what is up with all these dbz threads i cant wait till we see a Naruto vs superman tread lmao.

Originally posted by Lord Prime
Superman Ftw, and what is up with all these dbz threads i cant wait till we see a Naruto vs superman tread lmao.

lol

P.s mike i apologize if any of my posts sounded harsh/antagonizeing
clearly we have a different opinion in this matter
but nothing i said was directed at you, rather the heated subject
if that makes any sense

Superman dumps him in the sun, the end.

Originally posted by Magee
Superman dumps him in the sun, the end.

Or just destroys him. Superman has no guilt in destroying non living things.

I think everyone just needs to get the "DBZ Char vs superman" out of thier system


these debates have no end

Superman fans are used to it.

EVERYONE wants to beat the man of steel to make a name for themselves.

Originally posted by Avalonofthewind
Superman fans are used to it.

EVERYONE wants to beat the man of steel to make a name for themselves.

It definately goes both ways

Originally posted by Avalonofthewind
Or just destroys him. Superman has no guilt in destroying non living things. Technically they're cyborg's even with the name "artificial human."

They were "constructed from a human base" as stated by Android 17 in the manga. They were runaways who were heavily fitted with cybernetics.

18 even has a daughter with Krillan: Marron.

Originally posted by Creshosk
Technically they're cyborg's even with the name "artificial human."

They were "constructed from a human base" as stated by Android 17 in the manga. They were runaways who were heavily fitted with cybernetics.

18 even has a daughter with Krillan: Marron.

Thanks for the assist.

Originally posted by Creshosk
Technically they're cyborg's even with the name "artificial human."

They were "constructed from a human base" as stated by Android 17 in the manga. They were runaways who were heavily fitted with cybernetics.

18 even has a daughter with Krillan: Marron.
whats his face kinda defects too, the green bulky one,
he was nice to everyone cept goku

In any case which Superman are we talking about? The one who can sneeze and destroy solar systems, or the one who can absorb galaxy destroying attacks? sly

Post-Crisis Superman.

The Superman we see in comics today, etc...

Originally posted by Harry Fingerman
Post-Crisis Superman.

The Superman we see in comics today, etc... So the one who absorbed the energy from the Mageddon warhead, that was capable of vaporizing half a galaxy, and wasn't really harmed and even managed to smile in JLA #41?

Originally posted by Creshosk
So the one who absorbed the energy from the Mageddon warhead, that was capable of vaporizing half a galaxy, and wasn't really harmed and even managed to smile in JLA #41? Yupperz.

Originally posted by Creshosk
So the one who absorbed the energy from the Mageddon warhead, that was capable of vaporizing half a galaxy, and wasn't really harmed and even managed to smile in JLA #41?

No, the superman who fell to his death in JSA #81

Originally posted by ExtraMision5555
No, the superman who fell to his death in JSA #81

^ the irony of using that rule against someone else while you yourself argue Superman can take half-a-galaxy buster is quite epic
they're both PIS using the "I don't like it, let's ignore it" style of debating

Originally posted by Creshosk
Technically they're cyborg's even with the name "artificial human."

They were "constructed from a human base" as stated by Android 17 in the manga. They were runaways who were heavily fitted with cybernetics.

18 even has a daughter with Krillan: Marron.

Didn't they make a wish on the dragonballs to turn 18 into a human?

Originally posted by Jack Harkness
Superman beats them all.

DBZ threads are stupid.

Originally posted by Mindset
Didn't they make a wish on the dragonballs to turn 18 into a human?
Nah. The wish was just to remove the bomb inside 18 (that allowed her to self-destruct. 16's bomb of course, was surgically removed).

As for Super 17, if you leave out his ability to absorb Ki energy, he's really no stronger than 2 Android 17's (Perfect Cell could take him).

Besides, Androids 19 and 20 (Dr. Gero) could absorb Ki energy too, but did that make them any match for Super Saiyans, or even Piccolo? Of course not.

If Super 17 can get killed by a Super Dragon Fist, Superman could easily hit through his chest or something with a powerful punch.


Anyhow, yeah. These Superman vs DBZ threads have gotten way old now. yawn
*laughs at the thought of Superman vs Naruto threads*

Originally posted by 123KID
^ the irony of using that rule against someone else while you yourself argue Superman can take half-a-galaxy buster is quite epic
they're both PIS using the "I don't like it, let's ignore it" style of debating

I used to believe in the concept of PIS, but after talking with some other posters, I no longer stand by it.

I should however, point out that Superman's feats dwarf everyone's in DBZ. doped

Seriously, put Goku or someone else from DBZ in Superman's place. See if anyone thinks they could do what he does.

that's not true at all
he was mopping the floor with Vegeta and Gohan and Majuub (who is stronger than Kid Buu)
Vegeta in GT and Majuub both are WAY out of Cell's league
when Majuub started to hit him repeatedly (Majuub doesn't need to transform so it's not like he's weaker to start off with like the Saiyans) S17 didn't even move and this was well before he absorbed any energy



they absorbed it through their hands and could be taken apart as long as you avoided them
17 had enough power to put up a barrier to withstand everything an SS4 Goku had (well, most of it)

we're not talking about Z though
we're talking about GT
where Base Goku can blow away dimensional walls



he'd probably doa better job
unlike Clark Goku uses his speed in fights a lot

Originally posted by 123KID
we're not talking about Z though
we're talking about GT
where Base Goku can blow away dimensional walls



he'd probably doa better job
unlike Clark Goku uses his speed in fights a lot

GT loses by default.

You can't be serious..........Goku would get annihilated against the upper tier of Superman's rogues. Hell, even the mid tier guys would give him problems.

Doesn't use his speed? whatdur Are you kidding me? Superman is one of the best top tiers in comics when it comes to combat speed.

Hell, even the good guys Supes throws down with would wreck Goku. Example: Orion.

any particular names ?
i really don't see Doomsday doing it unless its H/P

most of Superman's high-end feats are once in a couple years
the rest of the time punches from Wonder Woman hurt him
i'd like to see Superman fight Kid Buu thought...it be funny



he's pretty much right down there with the Surfer when it comes to combat speed
FYI though Goku's IT in the anime is lightspeed and S17 can react to it and get there faster than Goku can...just in case we need the "lightspeed" argument
though again Supes hardly ever "fights" at such a speed



Orion has a lot of abilities Supes does not

Originally posted by 123KID
that's not true at all
he was mopping the floor with Vegeta and Gohan and Majuub (who is stronger than Kid Buu)
Vegeta in GT and Majuub both are WAY out of Cell's league
when Majuub started to hit him repeatedly (Majuub doesn't need to transform so it's not like he's weaker to start off with like the Saiyans) S17 didn't even move and this was well before he absorbed any energy



they absorbed it through their hands and could be taken apart as long as you avoided them
17 had enough power to put up a barrier to withstand everything an SS4 Goku had (well, most of it)
Here's the thing though. Vegeta and Piccolo knew about Android 19's and 20's ability to absorb Ki energy, so they refrained from wasting Ki blasts on them. That wasn't the case when Goku and the Z-fighters fought Super 17. If Goku had known Super 17 could absorb energy blasts, he (while at SS4) would've just beat Super 17 instantly with Super Dragon Fist, rather than waste a bunch of Kamehameha Waves on 17.

Were it not for Super 17's ability to absorb Ki energy, I doubt he would've even lasted long against the Z-fighters, as he overwhelmed Vegeta only after absorbing his Final Shine attack, but whatever. I could be wrong there...


Either way, Superman wins this match by a landslide. I guess I wouldn't be surprised if there was a Superman vs SS4 Gogeta topic as well...

Originally posted by 123KID
i'd like to see Superman fight Kid Buu thought...it be funny
Heh. I guess it would be in a way...

Originally posted by 123KID
Orion has a lot of abilities Supes does not
He's got some abilities Supes doesn't have, but not a lot.

Thanks for bumping this thread, now I can close it. No DB characters, per the rules.