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This is lightside Anakin when he beat Dooku. Fight takes place in the Jedi temple.

Odd. Anakin when he beats Dooku is deliberately giving into the dark side.

In any case, Depa is Mace's equal at her height, or damn near close. I don't see Anakin strongarming his way past someone who is as lethal as Depa.

I don't think Anakin would have to strongarm her. Her vaapad would assure that i think Anakin would beat her, but it would not be a curbstomp.

This would be a good battle. Anakin would probaly outlast her though he seemed to have the best physical stamina of anyone in the order.

Anakin wins.

Originally posted by playa1258
I don't think Anakin would have to strongarm her. Her vaapad would assure that i think Anakin would beat her, but it would not be a curbstomp.

Originally posted by playa1258
This would be a good battle. Anakin would probaly outlast her though he seemed to have the best physical stamina of anyone in the order.

What the hell? You posted twice in a row saying different things...anyway, Anakin should takes, but I think it'd be a tough fight. Mace was far from at his best when he fought her and even then didn't seem to be going his hardest.

Hmm... this is "in teh zone" Anakin, yet he is using the Dark Side, which will actually helShatterpoint and he still won. Yes, he says she is better than he is, but he also says that Kenobi is better than he is, which we know is not true.

Originally posted by Janus Marius


I don't see Anakin strongarming his way past someone who is as lethal as Depa. what a joke, any version of ROTS Anakin would beat her, and with not much trouble.

Apparently you haven't read Shatterpoint. If Anakin were to defeat her it'd be with the utmost difficulty.

Anakin

Originally posted by Faunus
Apparently you haven't read Shatterpoint. If Anakin were to defeat her it'd be with the utmost difficulty. Mace saying that does not mean she could even fight him, and taking out some clones I hope is not what you are referring to in that it would make the fight difficult for him.

Originally posted by Faunus
Apparently you haven't read Shatterpoint. If Anakin were to defeat her it'd be with the utmost difficulty.

I second this.

Seriously, you all have to be the most ignorant group of posters I have ever seen. I bet none of you can point Depa out in the movies without consulting Google image search first. Has anyone here read the novel Shatterpoint? Anyone? Hell, has anyone read any of the Clone Wars novels here? Or just watched the cartoons?

Anakin curbstomps...

Originally posted by Janus Marius
I second this.

Seriously, you all have to be the most ignorant group of posters I have ever seen. I bet none of you can point Depa out in the movies without consulting Google image search first. Has anyone here read the novel Shatterpoint? Anyone? Hell, has anyone read any of the Clone Wars novels here? Or just watched the cartoons?

I've read Shaterpoint plenty of times; it's my favorite book. For whoever Depa is Mace's equal, you're sadly mistaken. Mace indicated that her Vaapad surpassed his own.

I was under the impression the only ones in Anakins league in rots were Yoda.Mace and Obi-wan could i be wrong?

Originally posted by Janus Marius
I second this.

Seriously, you all have to be the most ignorant group of posters I have ever seen. I bet none of you can point Depa out in the movies without consulting Google image search first. Has anyone here read the novel Shatterpoint? Anyone? Hell, has anyone read any of the Clone Wars novels here? Or just watched the cartoons?

How can you have posted on here for so long and know so little about Star Wars?Mace saying something about somebody that he thought highly of does not do that. Point to one thing she did in Shatterpoint that would put her even close with ROTS Anakin in a fight.

Mace indicated that her swordplay seemed to surpass his own, and the way in which she gave herself to the dark side on the planet gave her incredible strength, but the bottom line is that while she was able to put up one hell of a fight with him (And effortlessly slaughter armed guards in mere seconds in the gunship battle) Mace did defeat her in the end. Mace created Vaapad and was, to quote material, the only living master.



Yes, you could be. If your list comes exclusively from the movies, chances are you haven't touched enough EU material. Characters like Luminara Unduli, Anoon, Qui-Gon, Maul, etc. could all contend with Anakin or beat the snot out of him.



This coming from perhaps the most ignorant-savvy of the regular posters here these days, kiddo. The height of your reasoning power makes my cat look like a genius.



Mace, as seen in many places such as Dark Rendezvous, does not hand out compliments lightly. Even if his words might be hyperbolic, the point stands that she's a worthy opponent and likely the only person who can hold a candle to him using Vaapad.



There's one scene where she attacks a gunship, and slaughters everyone onboard (A strike team of about six, if I remember. Perhaps more) before they can even react to shoot her down in the enclosed space. Anakin has apparently slaughtered droids which R2-D2 can handle on a one-on-one basis and some defenseless younglings and some Neimodians, if I remember correctly.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
Mace indicated that her swordplay seemed to surpass his own, and the way in which she gave herself to the dark side on the planet gave her incredible strength, but the bottom line is that while she was able to put up one hell of a fight with him (And effortlessly slaughter armed guards in mere seconds in the gunship battle) Mace did defeat her in the end. Mace created Vaapad and was, to quote material, the only living master.
You also should remember Depa feigned weakness at first and then speared a surprised Mace through the gut with her saber. Mace is also trying to keep her alive throughout the fight



This's a bit of an unfair assertion...Anakin is really damn good as seen in his ability to hang with Ventress and fight-and defeat- Durge. Anakin is pretty high up as far as power and ability are concerned.



No, Mace doesn't hand out compliments lightly. However, you should also heed where he says Anakin is arguably the most powerful Jedi alive and only getting stronger



He's also defeated Asajj Ventress, who was able to take on Kit and Obi-wan simultaneously, defeat Durge, who was a combatant in the Old Sith Wars a thousand years back-and Durge is an absolute demon in a fight...to demonstrate some of Anakin's power:
When Glaive and Obi-wan attempt to force push Durge, he leans back and little and says "Like THAT'S never happened to me before!"
When Anakin does so, Durge is hurled across the room into a wall.

Durge also compliments Anakin as the 'fastest Jedi he's killed' and, as Durge puts it: "And I've killed a LOT of Jedi."

Further feats from Anakin include: Defeating Aurra Sing in single combat, as well as, at the age of 13, kill Krayn, a notorious slaver and feared warrior, pictured here:
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Image:1krayn.JPG

Also factoring in, by ROTS, Anakin is good enough to defeat Cin Drallig in combat, the Jedi battlemaster, and judging by "Order 66: Destroy all Jedi", he did this without assistance from the Clone Troopers

man you are just clueless.

Wow, i guess you are right then, that is much more impressive than beating Cin,Dooku,Durge and Asajj.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
This's a bit of an unfair assertion...Anakin is really damn good as seen in his ability to hang with Ventress and fight-and defeat- Durge. Anakin is pretty high up as far as power and ability are concerned.It's not that much of a stretch. I wouldn't say any of them would defeat Anakin, but it's not beyond any of them to tie him up for a bit. Maul and Luminara especially could hang with him rather well in saber combat.

True. But that doesn't mean he can instantly manhandle anyone other than Yoda, Mace, Palpatine and Obi-Wan - not that you were implying this, but I thought I might address the point.

As it is, there are numerous characters in the PT era that give him a run for his money, and some may have a chance at beating him.

Actually, she took them on separately. She defeated Kit in a short but fierce battle, and then lost to Obi-Wan in a prolonged duel - which she would have won if it were not for Fisto's intervention.

And to be fair to Ventress, Anakin only beat her after giving into his rage - she managed to disarm him and bring him to his knees before he got really pissed off and broke her wrist with his mechanical hand. The second such encounter went pretty much the same way. She mocked him endlessly, and even scratched up his face while laughing about how she could have just taken off his head. Until he goes AWOL, a number of Anakins opponents seem to be able to contend with him very well, and even gain the upper-hand.

Obi-Wan managed to defeat him, too, and a much earlier stage in the war. He just didn't kill him.

For one, Glaive is never noted to be particularly strong in the Force, and both he and Obi-Wan - putting aside the brutal beatings they've taken in battle - are already suffering from the effects of the virus on Ohma'Dun, if I remember correctly. Also, you'll note that this encounter took place fairly early on in the war, before Obi-Wan had really improved by a considerable amount. Anakin fought him two months before RotS, so he was practically at his peak. Big difference.

Note: the fastest Jedi he's killed. Even though this is obviously a premature statement on his part, I doubt any Jedi he's killed, Sith War or later, was on the level of people like Maul, Obi-Wan, or Depa.

Regarding Drallig; I really doubt that this guy could tangle with Depa or Maul at their best and come out on top. He's never shown any notable skill, and the only forms we should assume he's mastered are Niman and/or Shii-Cho.

As to the argument as a whole; no one's saying Anakin is weak. He's quite obviously one of the very best of his era, and there aren't a ton of people throughout the EU who could take him in a fight. But that being said, he isn't beyond defeat, as Obi-Wan proved. Against opponents like Darth Maul or Luminara, he will find himself considerably hard-pressed. And facing someone who can give herself to the Dark side as fully as he can, while still keeping a clear head and wielding truly formidable lightsaber capabilities, it's not that far out to say that he could lose.

@Kiddo: While LS here can actually debate, you have no argument or points of your own whatsoever, so I suggest you step back and stop being a jackass.

there is nothing to debate dumbass.

So were would Depa rank in The top 10 Jedi of the Clone wars?

Originally posted by kiddo44
there is nothing to debate dumbass.Damn, stunning comeback. But I'm impressed; I didn't think you'd get past pressing the "reply" button.

That depends on your POV really; people like kiddo over here would put her in the upper double-digits through sheer ignorance. But personally? As far as Jedi/Sith/Dark Jedi go, I'd put only Sidious, Yoda, and Mace as her unquestionable superiors. Duels with Anakin or Dooku might go either way, and Obi-Wan could have a shot at taking her. Others who I'd say could challenge her but probably not win would be Ventress, Maul, Luminara, and likely Anoon Bondara.

Originally posted by Janus Marius



Characters like Luminara Unduli, Anoon, Qui-Gon, Maul, etc. could all contend with Anakin or beat the snot out of him.





http://www.teesmybody.com/images/t-shirts/detail/congratulations-idiot-t-shirt.gif

Wrong thread, much? You should be embarassed.

kiddo's never been one for accuracy.

http://i18.tinypic.com/4vgmoeh.jpg

Anakin is the winner obviously...

No, but Depa took out some clones in Shatterpoint, she wins clearly. No of course you are right Anakin wins no question.


you said that in this thread dumbass.

But you referenced it in another thread, "dumbass". Do everyone a favor and stop being a troll.

Anakin defeats here easily, why are so many people thinking she could defeat Anakin?

And Fanus, you would put only Sidious, Yoda, and Mace as her unquestionable superiors. WHAT?

Dooku, Anakin, OBi-Wan, Grievous, probably Maul and Drallig are her superiors as well.

Now, i am not saying she is weak or something, but she isn't the in the "A" group.
She is a group lower(maybe more), people that are in her league in ability, are the likes of Kit Fisto, Asajj, Sora Bolq, Anon Bondara, Agen Kolar...

Maul?

LMFAO.

Maul isn't even in the top ten saber users, man.

Of the PT, he is.

Nah, pretty much every Jedi Master who had a name in Rots could beat Maul 313

What makes you say that?

I think you don't give Maul enough credit, he wouldn't be chosen by Sidious, if he didn't had the potential(which he fulfilled), to be a great dualist.

And remember, Sidious only takes the best.

I was exaggerating. But who knows, Sideous may have seen Maul as an opportunity. I'm not saying Maul isn't good, but he's not as good as many on this site say he is, I.E. "curbstomping Rots Fisto" and "Giving Rots Anakin and Oni-Wan a run for there money".

Originally posted by Count Makashi
Anakin defeats here easily, why are so many people thinking she could defeat Anakin?

And Fanus, you would put only Sidious, Yoda, and Mace as her unquestionable superiors. WHAT?

Dooku, Anakin, OBi-Wan, Grievous, probably Maul and Drallig are her superiors as well.

Now, i am not saying she is weak or something, but she isn't the in the "A" group.
She is a group lower(maybe more), people that are in her league in ability, are the likes of Kit Fisto, Asajj, Sora Bolq, Anon Bondara, Agen Kolar...

Considering she nearly mastered a style only two other Jedi have even attempted, and that Mace stated that had she been clear of mind and not insane, she would have had a great chance at defeating him in a duel. Mace is far ahead of Anakin, Depa is above him too.

The top 10 duelists of the PT (in no particular order, so nobody gets mad) are:
Yoda
Sidious
Dooku
Mace
Anakin/Vader
Obi-Wan
Maul
Sora
Depa
Cin



Anoon isn't included as he technically died before the PT (about a year before TPM).

Originally posted by Count Makashi
Anakin defeats here easily, why are so many people thinking she could defeat Anakin?Cuz some of us have actually read the only material she's featured in.

Edited for accuracy, emphasis on key word.

First, I'd like to congratulate you for formulating such convincing arguments in favor of all these characters. Kudos.

Now. Dooku almost certainly is her superior, I wouldn't doubt that. Anakin? That's what the thread is about. I'd say he has a shot for sure, but a sane Depa would probably be able to take him out in most situations.

Obi-Wan probably isn't a better duelist than Depa. He's extremely good, sure, but she's older and more practiced in a form known only by two others, and is one of two living masters. Like Anakin he might be able to manage a win, but I wouldn't bet on it. Mace thinks so much of her bladework that said it surpassed his own. It's likely a hyperbolic statement, but coming from the second most powerful Jedi alive that's saying something.

Grievous? Pfft. He got his ass kicked by Mace Windu in what can be interpreted as being a very short time, and the Jedi didn't even have to resort to his shatterpoint ability. Now, Darth Maul is someone who has a shot at defeating her in a duel - anyone who can give Sidious a run for his money is a force to be reckoned with. Given the cold, brutally efficient manner in which he fights against everyone but an unarmed Padawan, and thus the small chance of a mistake, I'd give him and Dooku the best chances at taking her down.

...

You're kidding, right? First off, Asajj Ventress is without a doubt in "the 'A' group." She's pretty much manhandled Obi-Wan in the past, and was only ever defeated by Anakin when he gave himself to the dark side completely.

Second, saying Agen Kolar is in Depa's league is ludicrous. She's definitely better than Kit, too, although he's actually got some major skillz. Sora Bulq has nothing on her - although he assisted Mace in Vaapad's creation, he never mastered it. He's good, but against Depa? Dead. However, Anoon Bondara appears to be really good, so he might be in the upper tiers.

Smart move.

I still haven't don't get what makes Drallig so good. The only thing he's ever done was get manhandled by an occupied Anakin. And why is Sora up there above Ventress? Overall, it's a good list, but I'd take out Bulq and Cin and toss in Asajj and maybe Anoon (he's pretty much PT era anyway).

Cin was the Battlemaster, and you can't be the Battlemaster without possessing some of the greatest saber skills in the order. Dooku even brings up his name when reprimanding Grievous, along with the names "Kenobi, Mace and Yoda' (this is in LOE).


As for Sora and Asajj, Asajj is on Anakin's level 6 months before ROTS, while Sora put up a decent against Mace. I find the latter more impressive. Plus Sora knows Vaapad, he's Dooku's right-hand man (not Asajj), and he was tooling Vos until Vos tried his hardest and caught Sora by surprise. And Dooku actually shows a little emotion when Sora dies, when Asajj dies, well, he's the one who orders it, shows how much more important Sora is than Asajj.

Originally posted by Faunus
Cuz some of us have actually read the only material she's featured in.

Edited for accuracy, emphasis on key word.

First, I'd like to congratulate you for formulating such convincing arguments in favor of all these characters. Kudos.

Now. Dooku almost certainly is her superior, I wouldn't doubt that. Anakin? That's what the thread is about. I'd say he has a shot for sure, but a sane Depa would probably be able to take him out in most situations.

Obi-Wan probably isn't a better duelist than Depa. He's extremely good, sure, but she's older and more practiced in a form known only by two others, and is one of two living masters. Like Anakin he might be able to manage a win, but I wouldn't bet on it. Mace thinks so much of her blade-work that said it surpassed his own. It's likely a hyperbolic statement, but coming from the second most powerful Jedi alive that's saying something.

Grievous? Pfft. He got his ass kicked by Mace Windu in what can be interpreted as being a very short time, and the Jedi didn't even have to resort to his shatterpoint ability. Now, Darth Maul is someone who has a shot at defeating her in a duel - anyone who can give Sidious a run for his money is a force to be reckoned with. Given the cold, brutally efficient manner in which he fights against everyone but an unarmed Padawan, and thus the small chance of a mistake, I'd give him and Dooku the best chances at taking her down.

...

You're kidding, right? First off, Asajj Ventress is without a doubt in "the 'A' group." She's pretty much manhandled Obi-Wan in the past, and was only ever defeated by Anakin when he gave himself to the dark side completely.

Second, saying Agen Kolar is in Depa's league is ludicrous. She's definitely better than Kit, too, although he's actually got some major skillz. Sora Bulq has nothing on her - although he assisted Mace in Vaapad's creation, he never mastered it. He's good, but against Depa? Dead. However, Anoon Bondara appears to be really good, so he might be in the upper tiers.

Smart move.

I still haven't don't get what makes Drallig so good. The only thing he's ever done was get manhandled by an occupied Anakin. And why is Sora up there above Ventress? Overall, it's a good list, but I'd take out Bulq and Cin and toss in Asajj and maybe Anoon (he's pretty much PT era anyway).

I read it to, great book and she did very well, actually she was vining the fight with Mace, but this also happened

He screamed as she triggered her blade. And kept screaming as its green fire chewed a tunnel through Mace's guts and speared out his back. His hand seized hers instinctively, locking her blade against his body so that she could not kill him by slashing it free. HIS OWN BLADE IGNITED-BUT HE COULD NOT STRIKE HER. Even now. Not here, so close he could kiss her instead; not while her scream spiraled up into a shriek; not while he had to look into her wide staring eyes and see no hate or rage but only stark agony.

Mace backpedaled, parrying frantically, absorbing the shock of her attacks with bent arms and a two-handed grip. He was taller than she, with more reach and weight, and vastly more muscle in his upper body, but she drove him backward as though he were a child. Green flame struck through his guard, and only a frantic jerk of his head turned what would have been a brain-burning thrust into a line of char along his cheekbone.

STILL HE DID NOT STRIKE BACK.



Mace got it now: as each Akk Guard died, his share of pelekotan backflowed through the bonds Vaster had forged among them.

She was getting stronger.

And with each stroke of her blade, he could feel himself slipping into the shadows. He had to. She was too strong, too fast, too everything. The only way he could survive was to give more of himself to Vaapad. To give all of himself (shaterpoint)

When one of the guards died, Depa was getting stronger, because of the link Vastor forged between them and Depa fully gave her self to Vaapad, while Mace didn't, you must give yourself completely to Vaapad, to enjoy the fight, to wield it properly. And Mace didn't want to hurt Depa, he still loved her, not to mention he was tired, (he was just fighting a battle, while Depa and Vastor war in the command center and had plenty of time to rest) injured(the beating he tok from Vastor) and was emotionally conflicted(Depa)

Now, Depa is very good, but if Mace was going all out to kill her, i think he would win in a decent fight.

You say that Dooku is almost certainly is her superior, he is her superior. Practiced Makashi for 8 decades to the highest degree, gave Master Yoda a hard fight, described as one of the most respected and powerful Jedi in the Orders 25000 year history and an even greater Sith Lord, also described in one book as a legendary swordmaster...

Now if Dooku is her superior, which you also believe, then Anakin is her superior as well, he is better combatant then Dooku and Mace. Here are some quotes about Anakin

-Vastor has power on the scale of Master Yoda, or young Anakin Skywalker/Mace Windu(Shatterpoint)

-After all, he is the greatest Jedi alive, is he not? And have we not ensured that all the galaxy shares this opinion?/Dart Sidious(ROTS novel)

-Skywalker is arguably the most powerful Jedi alive, and he is still getting stronger/Mace Windu(Rots novel)

-The most powerful Jedi of his generation. Perhaps of any generation. The fastest. The strongest. An unbeatable pilot. An unstoppable warrior. On the ground, in the air or sea or space, there is no one even close. He has not just power, not just skill, but dash: that rare, invaluable combination of boldness and grace.

He is the best there is at what he does. The best there has ever been. And he knows it./Writer about Anakin(Rots novel)

Notice at the first one, he says he has the power on a scale of Yoda or Anakin, more then his. (Mace)



Depa may be older and more experienced then Keonobi, but when has more experience meant someone is better, if more experience meant defining factor in a victory, Dooku would defeat Anakin, Sidious would defeat Mace, hell, Dooku and Sidious would just die of looking at Yoda, because he has so much more experience then them. And Mace also commented in ROTS novel, that Obi-Wan is his equal( it's likely a hyperbolic statement, but coming from the second most powerful Jedi alive that's saying something) and that he is the best Jedi to take down General Grievous.

General Grievous fought 5 Jedi at a same time and he pwnd them, true they were exhausted, but like Ki Adi Mundi said, when is the last time someone fought 5 Jedi at the same time and stood his own. Trained by Dooku himself, knows every form(little of Vaapad to), one of the greatest nemesis the Jedi Order ever faced, can manage 20 strikes per second...

I agree with you with about Maul.



Asajj isn't in the "A" group, in Dark Rendezvous she got pwned by Dooku, while he used only a finger an in Obsession, Obi-Wan had no problem parrying her strikes, while he didn't even tried to attack her, he wanted to redeem her. She is very good, but not on the top tier level.


Kit Fisto, Agen Kolar, Tin Seasee were all described by the writer of Rots novel, as one of the best swordsman the Jedi order ever produced, when was Depa ever described as one of the best, or as one of the most powerful?

Sora Bulq gave Mace Windu a good fight, Mace at his best, and i think he mastered the blade-work of Vaapad, yes, its true that Mace says that he didn't master Vaapad, Vaapad mastered him, but i think, that's because he was seduced by the Dark Side, because using Vaapad brings you close to the Dark Side, you have to watch your emotions, this is where Sora Bulq failed, not in the blade-work.
And i think i remember reading somewhere(not sure), that he was described as one of the best lightsaber instructors, the Order ever had.
Can anybody confirm this?

Cin Drallig was noted by Dooku, that he could take General Griveous and like darthsith said, he was the battlemaster of the order, you have to be very, very good , to occupy this position.

The list dartsith wrote is good, Sora and Drallig deserve it more then Anoon and Asajj.

Again, Depa is very, very good, i just think she is not an "A "group material and Anakin is.



And, how do you quote between the lines? Can somebody tell me.

Simply being the lightsaber instructor of the Order's children doesn't make him good. Hell, Dooku also brings up the rest of the council, most of whom have actually demonstrated a high degree of lightsaber or Force prowess. Cin's greatest feat was getting casually manhandled by Anakin, who was strangling a girl to death with his spare hand. Impressive? I wouldn't say so.

Sora duelled a confused and distracted Mace who'd just found out that one of his oldest friends had gone renegade. Forget about the four or five Jedi Knights and Padawans that Ventress was slaughtering a short distance away. If Mace had been trying his hardest he would've obliterated Bulq, period.

Gee, I wonder what form Depa Billaba mastered to such high levels that she impressed its creator.

...

Sora was important to Dooku because of the part he played in confounding double-agents like Quinlan Vos - by allowing the Jedi mole to be misinformed, and thus give the Council flawed information, he helped to keep Palpatine's identity a secret.

Ventress? She was a weapon, pure and simple. When he needed someone intimidated or someone dead, he sent her. Who was chosen to test Anakin's power and prowess? You'd think if Sora had been held in such high esteem he would've been sent. Dooku believed Anakin to be "more than a match" for Skywalker, and even Sidious recognized that he would need the Dark side to win against her.

No, I'd say Asajj has shown that she is a firmly above Sora Bulq.

Originally posted by Count Makashi
I read it to, great book and she did very well, actually she was vining the fight with Mace, but this also happenedI don't think I ever brought up the fight with Mace.

Of course he would. Who said otherwise?

1) Well, Mace put Darth Sidious on his ass, who was described by Yoda as being far too powerful for Obi-Wan to even compete with, and the latter Jedi tooled Anakin. So I guess Mace >>> Anakin, right?

ABC arguments don't work, period, so don't ever try to use one.

2) Anakin better than Dooku or Mace? WTF?

In one instance, Anakin managed to get the better of Dooku. How? An unconventional and totally out-of-the-blue maneuver. Was it legit? Absolutely, and the fact that he managed to pull it off speaks volumes for his skill. I'm not arguing this.

But to say that the outcome of single battle puts him at a higher standing than a prodigiously talented and extraordinarily powerful Sith Lord who has 70 years more experience than Anakin, and has time and time again displayed far greater mastery of the Force is just stupid.

Please. All the power and hyperbole in the world didn't allow Anakin to overpower Obi-Wan in a Force contest. Any of the PT era's top dogs would tool his shit in that department.

In most situations, he would. Have you ever stopped and considered what the result of that duel would've been if Dooku had done to Anakin what he did to Obi-Wan, and vice-versa? If the fight had continued with Anakin taken out of comission, and Kenobi as the lone combatant? I didn't think so.

In a no-holds-barred battle where the Sith Lord brings his considerably superior Force abilities to bear, Skywalker would be crushed.

I'd say Sidious would defeat Mace more often than not in an area where he could better utilize some of his Sith powers. Hell, replace Yoda with Mace in the Rotunda battle and he's got himself a win.

Which you have yet to provide a quote for...

Btw, "surpassed" > "equal."

Which Mace did himself in seconds atop a mag-lev.

General Grievous fought five exhausted, wounded, and desperate Jedi at once, yes. On even terms? Yeah, right. We saw what happens when a cyborg tries to take on a skilled Jedi in straight fight. The Hypori incident had Grievous with the elements of surprise and fear on his side, as well as the fact that these Jedi had never seen or heard of anything like him.

So, five exhausted, terrified, and desperate Jedi against a souped up cyborg with multiple lightsabers who they have no experience against? Not much to write home about.

So were his guards.

Aside from the myriad of powerful Sith Lords and renegade Jedi that proceeded, yeah.

Not in the movie.

1) Yes, by Dooku, one of the most powerful beings of his era.

2) On Vjun, a planet steeped in the Dark side, which Dooku could immerse and empower himself in.

This is an insane, twisted version of the character who performs far worse than she did at her peak.

If by "top tier" you mean Yoda, Sidious, Dooku, and Mace; no shit. But she's demonstrated prowess on par with and occasionally surpassing that of Obi-Wan and Anakin, who I see you guys have included in your list.

When was Drallig, hm? Or Sora?

Hyperbole doesn't make someone good - action does.

You think. And Sora's supposed mastery of Vaapad's bladework still managed to get him casually fried by Dooku while the Sith simultaneously toyed with Master Tholme. We know that wouldn't happen to Mace, so comparing the two is futile.

I'm quite sure no canon source has ever stated that.

You have to be very, very good to train younglings in Shii-Cho and Niman? Not to mention that Dooku said Grievous would have serious problems if he fought any council member on even terms. Does that make Saesee Tinn a saber god?

They really don't. Sora might, but Drallig has demonstrated nothing remotely impressive.

Anakin is, definitely. And so is Depa.

Just a note: Mace was hardly confused or anything of the sort. He had realized, accepted and rationalized what Sora had become by the time he confronted him. He said himself he'd earlier let himself be blinded to what he wanted to see.

Moreover, on the matter of Grievous: Grievous is an extremely dangerous warrior. On his opening debut at Geonosis, he killed the Jedi in the catacombs with supposedly his bare hands, he killed T'Chuka Doon, a Jedi Master described as powerful in the Force and whom the force was with that day, when T'Chuka moves to face him certainly knowing of the danger.
Grievous also faced and defeated Durge and Asajj Ventress simultaneously (Clone Wariors Adventures Vol. 3), that speaks volumes for his skill.

As for Sora to Asajj: Asajj is a weapon, no doubt about that, but Sora is the top Dark Acolyte and for good reason: He wasn't jusgt used to confound Quin Vos (Quin came to a conclusion out of the blue when he learned Sora was the go-between on

Sora, however, was trusted with possibly the most important project in the Confederacy's war plan: the Morgukai Shadow Army. he is shown to be the better of Tholme (Who is most certainly no push over). Sora's position is further cemented by the fact that his position as Dooku's first lieutenant is unquestioned, as opposed to the infighting among the other Dark Acolytes. He is mentioned as the corruption that can infest even the best of Jedi and is mentioned as a 'grievous loss.' Dooku casually sacrificed Asajj at the end-he was furious Bulq was killed. Asajj is a weapon and a killer, but Sora was the closest thing Dooku had to a second.

And as for Cin: he's mentioned as a worthy competitor for Grievous and hailed as one of Yoda's personal Padawans. His death to Anakin is a sign of Ani's skill, not Cin's deficiency.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Just a note: Mace was hardly confused or anything of the sort. He had realized, accepted and rationalized what Sora had become by the time he confronted him. He said himself he'd earlier let himself be blinded to what he wanted to see.Either way, Mace is obviously not aiming to kill. We've seen how his personal feelings can affect his actions (Geonosis, the duel against Depa), so even if Windu does finally realize that Sora is beyond redemption he's not going all out.

I didn't argue that, but it's clearly stated and later demonstrated that in a head-to-head fight where he doesn't have fear and surprise on his side, he can't keep up with the more advanced Jedi. On that note, can you show me an instance where Grievous enters a fair fight against notable opponents and comes out on top?

Jedi whom he ambushes and shreds while they're busy pursuing the Separatists, yes.

T'Chooka D'oon was perhaps Grievous' only "fair" kill, with the exception of Adi Gallia. And neither of them are noted as being considerably talented warriors.

He also got the drop on both of them, IIRC.

That aside, he managed to physically manhandle Ventress at her lowest point - six months later, she crushes Kit Fisto and Obi-Wan in quick succession.

I'll let you finish this sentence...

I didn't say that Sora wasn't important to the Count. But by no means does that make him better in combat than Asajj, that assertion being the entire purpose of this argument.

By this logic, Maul and Dooku suck because Sidious showed little to no emotion when they died, and even ordered the execution of the latter.

As is Kit Fisto, and by that token Ki-Adi-Mundi and Agen Kolar - in the same passage, btw - all of whom have displayed notable skill or power, which is more than I can say for Cin Drallig.

And your point is...?

So the death of the younglings is sign of skill, and not the "deficiency" of the murdered party?

It would be a testament to Anakin's ability if the instructor had ever actually done something worth mentioning or demonstrated swordsmanship/power on par with or exceeding that of most council members. He has not.

Originally posted by Faunus
Simply being the lightsaber instructor of the Order's children doesn't make him good. Hell, Dooku also brings up the rest of the council, most of whom have actually demonstrated a high degree of lightsaber or Force prowess. Cin's greatest feat was getting casually manhandled by Anakin, who was strangling a girl to death with his spare hand. Impressive? I wouldn't't say so.

Sora duelled a confused and distracted Mace who'd just found out that one of his oldest friends had gone renegade. Forget about the four or five Jedi Knights and Padawans that Ventress was slaughtering a short distance away. If Mace had been trying his hardest he would've obliterated Bulq, period.

Gee, I wonder what form Depa Billaba mastered to such high levels that she impressed its creator.

...

Sora was important to Dooku because of the part he played in confounding double-agents like Quinlan Vos - by allowing the Jedi mole to be misinformed, and thus give the Council flawed information, he helped to keep Palpatine's identity a secret.

Ventress? She was a weapon, pure and simple. When he needed someone intimidated or someone dead, he sent her. Who was chosen to test Anakin's power and prowess? You'd think if Sora had been held in such high esteem he would've been sent. Dooku believed Anakin to be "more than a match" for Skywalker, and even Sidious recognized that he would need the Dark side to win against her.

No, I'd say Asajj has shown that she is a firmly above Sora Bulq.

I don't think I ever brought up the fight with Mace.

Of course he would. Who said otherwise?

1) Well, Mace put Darth Sidious on his ass, who was described by Yoda as being far too powerful for Obi-Wan to even compete with, and the latter Jedi tooled Anakin. So I guess Mace >>> Anakin, right?

ABC arguments don't work, period, so don't ever try to use one.

2) Anakin better than Dooku or Mace? WTF?

In one instance, Anakin managed to get the better of Dooku. How? An unconventional and totally out-of-the-blue maneuver. Was it legit? Absolutely, and the fact that he managed to pull it off speaks volumes for his skill. I'm not arguing this.

But to say that the outcome of single battle puts him at a higher standing than a prodigiously talented and extraordinarily powerful Sith Lord who has 70 years more experience than Anakin, and has time and time again displayed far greater mastery of the Force is just stupid.

Please. All the power and hyperbole in the world didn't allow Anakin to overpower Obi-Wan in a Force contest. Any of the PT era's top dogs would tool his shit in that department.

In most situations, he would. Have you ever stopped and considered what the result of that duel would've been if Dooku had done to Anakin what he did to Obi-Wan, and vice-versa? If the fight had continued with Anakin taken out of comission, and Kenobi as the lone combatant? I didn't think so.

In a no-holds-barred battle where the Sith Lord brings his considerably superior Force abilities to bear, Skywalker would be crushed.

I'd say Sidious would defeat Mace more often than not in an area where he could better utilize some of his Sith powers. Hell, replace Yoda with Mace in the Rotunda battle and he's got himself a win.

Which you have yet to provide a quote for...

Btw, "surpassed" > "equal."

Which Mace did himself in seconds atop a mag-lev.

General Grievous fought five exhausted, wounded, and desperate Jedi at once, yes. On even terms? Yeah, right. We saw what happens when a cyborg tries to take on a skilled Jedi in straight fight. The Hypori incident had Grievous with the elements of surprise and fear on his side, as well as the fact that these Jedi had never seen or heard of anything like him.

So, five exhausted, terrified, and desperate Jedi against a souped up cyborg with multiple lightsabers who they have no experience against? Not much to write home about.

So were his guards.

Aside from the myriad of powerful Sith Lords and renegade Jedi that proceeded, yeah.

Not in the movie.

1) Yes, by Dooku, one of the most powerful beings of his era.

2) On Vjun, a planet steeped in the Dark side, which Dooku could immerse and empower himself in.

This is an insane, twisted version of the character who performs far worse than she did at her peak.

If by "top tier" you mean Yoda, Sidious, Dooku, and Mace; no shit. But she's demonstrated prowess on par with and occasionally surpassing that of Obi-Wan and Anakin, who I see you guys have included in your list.

When was Drallig, hm? Or Sora?

Hyperbole doesn't make someone good - action does.

You think. And Sora's supposed mastery of Vaapad's bladework still managed to get him casually fried by Dooku while the Sith simultaneously toyed with Master Tholme. We know that wouldn't't happen to Mace, so comparing the two is futile.

I'm quite sure no canon source has ever stated that.

You have to be very, very good to train younglings in Shii-Cho and Niman? Not to mention that Dooku said Grievous would have serious problems if he fought any council member on even terms. Does that make Saesee Tinn a saber god?

They really don't. Sora might, but Drallig has demonstrated nothing remotely impressive.

Anakin is, definitely. And so is Depa.

That's because Anakin is so good, like Lightsnake said, it makes Anakin look good, not Cin bad. They don't give the position of a battlemaster to anyone, you have to be very good to occupy this position.

Mace was thinking clearly and he was trying his hardest, like you said, those 4 Jedi were in danger, Mace had to defeat Sora as quickly as possible, to go to help those Jedi, whose life's were in danger. He didn't had time to mes around.

He meant that Sora also knows Vaapad, no one said that Depa doesn't know it.

Sora gives Mace a good fight, Asajj runs from him immediately, yes later she becomes stronger, but i don't think she is on Soras level, in Obsession(many here believe, that in Obsession is where she is the strongest), Obi-Wan casually parys her strikes, while trying to redeem her, Sora would be a more challenging opponent then that.

Oh, i thought you hold her in such high regard, because of the fight with Mace.


Well, didn't you use an ABC argument

Well, Mace put Darth Sidious on his ass, who was described by Yoda as being far too powerful for Obi-Wan to even compete with, and the latter Jedi tooled Anakin. So I guess Mace >>> Anakin, right?

Lets use you example-

Mace defeated Sidous in a saber match only, Anakin can defeat him in a saber match only as well and Sidious would only defeat Obi-Wan easily in the Force, not with sabers and Anakin/Kenobi fight had special circumstances, like Anakin being emotionally conflicted, Obi-Wan trained him, so he knows his moves(the same applies for Anakin, but still), Anakin was to arrogant and even with all those handicaps, Anakin still drove Obi-Wan back, that he had to resort, using the higher ground tactics. Anakin in normal circumstances on neutral ground, is much better then Kenobi.

In swordsmanship he is.

No, it wasn't a lucky move and in wasn't in one instance, the novel makes it clear, that the fight between them could happen 100 times and Anakin would win 100 times. He only needed to decide to win, and he won, he decided to cut of his arms and in next second he cut them of.

-Dooku is dead already. The rest is mere detail./ROTS novel

-Dooku's decades of combat experience are irrelevant. His mastery of swordplay is useless. His vast wealth, his political influence, impeccable breeding, immaculate manners, exquisite taste-the pursuits and points of pride to which he has devoted so much of his time and attention over the long, long years of his life-are now chains hung upon his spirit, bending his neck before the ax.

Even his knowledge of the Force has become a joke. /ROTS novel


-In that pristine clarity, there is only one thing he must do.

Decide.

So he does.

He decides to win.

He decides that Dooku should lose the same hand he took. Decision is reality, here: his blade moves simultaneously with his will and blue fire vaporizes black Corellian nanosilk and disintegrates flesh and shears bone, and away falls a Sith Lord's lightsaber hand, trailing smoke that tastes of charred meat and burned hair. The hand falls with a bar of scarlet blaze still extending from its spastic death grip, and Anakin's heart sings for the fall of that red blade.

He reaches out and the Force catches it for him./ROTS novel

Not to mention, that Anakin is the most prodigiously talented person in SW universe.


Like i said, there were special circumstances in that fight and better Force mastery didn't help Count Dooku.

-Even his knowledge of the Force has become a joke


Like i said, he wouldn't't, Anakin is simply, just better then Count Dooku and almost every fight between them would end the same.

But he didn't win in a movie and i was arguing about experience, you said Count Dooku is more experienced then Anakin, i just meant that experience isn't a defining factor in a fight, that's why i put these examples, where more experienced fighters lost.

I just meant theat Maces opinions aren't fact.

But he didn't destroy him and later all Council agrees that obi-Wan Kenobi is the best Jedi to take down Grievous not Mace.

Still he fought 5 Jedi at a same time and won, how many can say that and live to tell the story. Griveous, by Dookus words is even more powerful then Asajj and he defeats Asajj and Durge together and Durge is no pushover, defeats numerous Jedi, like Adi Gallia, Shaak Ti...

This is what Mace says about him

-Mace nodded. "Yoda and I will remain on Coruscant, monitoring Palpatine's advisers and lackeys; we'll move against Sidious the instant he is revealed. But who will capture Grievous? I have fought him blade-to-blade. He is more than a match for most Jedi.

He is much better then his guards.

Not every Sith Lord and renegade Jedi posed a bigger threat then Grievous.

Well in the movies Mace and Sidious moved like 70 years old people, those that mean they don't move really fast, the point is, he is the same character as he is in EU.


Well if its a planet steeped in the Dark side, where Dooku can immerse and empower himself in, shouldn't that mean that Asajj can do the same thing, she is a Darksider as well.
And doesn't it say, that it just makes practicing the Dark arts easier?


Many here, would say that that's when she is the strongest and that's just an excuse, she wasn't able to do it, that's why.

But that is before ROTS, where they(Anakin and Kenobi), become more powerful, hell in Obsession, she wasn't even a threat anymore.

And her actions proved that Mace at his best, could defeat her easily, if she was in top tier, she would be close to Mace and the guys like Yoda, Dooku..., but she isn't.

That's because Dooku has better offensive weaponry then Mace and who was comparing Sora to Mace. Of course Mace is much better.

http://www.starwars.com/databank/character/sorabulq/?id=eu

Sora Bulq was one of the greatest lightsaber instructors the Jedi order had ever known, perfecting the various forms of combat techniques, both classical and experimental.
So, one of the greatest lightsaber instructors in 25000 years history of the order, that's hugely impressive.

Battlemaster trains others in art of the saber, so he has to be very good, they wouldn't put some lame teacher to teach others, a teacher has to be good, to better teach others and Drallig teached Obi-Wan and Anakin and his Apprentice Sera Keto was also very good.

The list is good.

Anakin is, Depa isn't.

Sorry about the double post, but it said i had to many characters.

Originally posted by Faunus
Either way, Mace is obviously not aiming to kill. We've seen how his personal feelings can affect his actions (Geonosis, the duel against Depa), so even if Windu does finally realize that Sora is beyond redemption he's not going all out.
At this point, Mace is not holding back, though. Before he confronts Sora, he says he's realized what Sora has become and that he must stop him. He realizes, however, the time it takes to kill Sora qill allow Asajj to finish the others, so he attacks to incapacitate-something Sora was not expecting

T'Chooka Doon would certainly be one of them. He was described as strong in the force, and extremely formidable...he also took out Doon's Padawan and his new master B'dard simultaneously when the two set up everything just to kill Grievous.

Also, on Boz Pity, he kills Adi Gallia, and she's certainly no push over. Sure, he can't keep up with Mace or Dooku or Yoda or Palpatine in a fair fight- but not many people can.

Well, both are combat veterans and Jedi Masters. Grievous also has victory over Durge and Asajj to his credit, as I said-even though Dooku instructed him not to kill them

In General Grievous 1, T'Chooka runs back to fight Grievous to buy time for the others to escape-no surprise attack.
On Boz Pity, Adi is shown dueling Grievous after he kills Soon Baytes...no surprise attacks there, really

This is also after the whole debacle with Bulq. And don't forget he's beating her simultaneously with Durge.
Also, in the ROTS novelization, Grievous recounts his favorite trophies, which were apparently acquired during straight duels-such as Jmmar, who was killed on an open field.

Heh, sorry....the go between on Valorum's death

If Sora wasn't the more powerful of the two, then we'd be hard pressed to explain Asajj being expendable to Dooku while Sora was not

Palpatine was quite frustrated about Maul's death, actually, since he lost a valuable apprentice at just the wrong time-Dooku's death was fully orchestrated for a good while. There's a distinct difference.

And those three are described as three of the best swordsmen the Jedi Order ever produced. That puts Cin amongst rather distinguished company, I'd say.

I'd expect a battlemaster and saber combat expert personally trained by Yoda to have quite some skill is all

This is misdirection and you know it. The younglings are not renowned saber masters.

How about defeating Asajj Ventress in a saber duel twice, defeating-and killing-Durge with both sills force power, defeating three of Dooku's prized Dark Acolytes simultaneously, killing Cin Drallig, whose saber skills were indeed described as superior to members of the council, killing Jocasta Nu without any effort, killing Count Dooku (Which you most certainly stated was impressive on Anakin's part) while before pulling off said physical maneuver, he was forcing Dooku back and sent him spinning off balance.

I'd say Anakin has most certainly got the credentials.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
At this point, Mace is not holding back, though. Before he confronts Sora, he says he's realized what Sora has become and that he must stop him. He realizes, however, the time it takes to kill Sora qill allow Asajj to finish the others, so he attacks to incapacitate-something Sora was not expectingFor one, Asajj was literally toying with the four Jedi - she could've killed them at any second.

Second, if Mace was going all out with the intention of getting rid of Sora, he would have. How hard would it've been to kill the guy when he was unconcious?

One of the Jedi who he defeated in a fair fight? Sure, why not. Notable? Hardly. Simply being described as powerful in the Force doesn't make one considerably skilled in combat.

I was talking about his duel with Ventress and Durge, not the Jedi.

Again, Asajj by this point is still relatively weak compared to her later incarnations - six months after this, she takes down Kit Fisto and Obi-Wan back-to-back.

So he kills some random Jedi in open combat. I never said he couldn't. I've even referenced Dooku's reprimand of his fighting style, when the Count notes that Cin Drallig or any of the Council members would pose a serious threat to him in single combat.

Because he's more useful, as well as far better suited to the role he played than Ventress would have been. Asajj, for all her cunning and deadly skill, is far more influenced by her "weaker" emotions than Bulq is. The Cestus Deception showcases this quite well.

Ki-Adi-Mundi isn't, but is decidedly far more powerful in the Force.

And how does that relate to Cin at all? They're all noted as Grievous' equals or betters in direct combat, but the three I mentioned have actually done something. Agen Kolar disarmed and humiliated Quinlan Vos with ease, Kit Fisto's lightsaber abilities dazzled a CW-era Obi-Wan and impressed Mace Windu, and Ki-Adi-Mundi's Force powers are extremely impressive.

Again: what has Drallig done?

1) Being trained by Yoda =/= Great skill.

2) I never said he's "unskilled." Just that he's not the sabergod that everyone makes him out to be.

The point stands; that kind of logic does not fly.

WTF? Who's talking about Anakin? I said that Drallig has nothing to his name, which is completely true. And the ease with which he was murdered can't be an argument in his favor no matter how you spin it.

Now, regarding Grievous. I don't even know how the guy got involved in this argument, but I never stated that he was in any way a subpar or weak combatant. He's obviously very, very good, and a force to be reckoned with. But by the volition of the very man who trained him, any of the top ranked Jedi in the Order would either present a very grave threat to him or crush him outright if he chose to engage them in open combat. I don't want my stance on him to be misinterpreted.

Originally posted by Faunus
For one, Asajj was literally toying with the four Jedi - she could've killed them at any second.

Second, if Mace was going all out with the intention of getting rid of Sora, he would have. How hard would it've been to kill the guy when he was unconcious?
Those four Jedi consist of: K'Kruhk, Jeisel and Rafe...one of whom joins Asajj and it's not like any of them are what I'd call anything above a competent, at best, fighter.

And do you REALLY see Mace finishing off an unconscious, helpless opponent who happens to be his old friend? Never mind even the split second he took to finish Sora there would've meant K'Kruhk would've died.

being a skilled Jedi Master sent in a partnership to stop a violent war, however, gives one some credentials

Both of them are veteran assassins, well accustomed to ambushes. Grievous also outfights them both at one point.

I'm confused: How do we get she's weak to her later incarnations there? I don't really follow that...

Yes, that's true. However, Grievous did fight several members of the Council before...two current, one former. The former two managed to survive-barely. Adi Gallia didn't.
Say what you will, but the number of opponents who can kill a large number of Jedi on their own? Not very high.

Asajj is remarkably unstable, yes. Dooku clearly values Sora for more than he does Asajj and I doubt that's because Sora's the more politically useful tool.
Bulq, for all his cunning and deadly skill manages to control his emotions for the most part. He's smarter than Asajj, extremely skilled, has intimate knowledge of Jedi abilities Asajj doesn't, is held as one of the finest duelists in the current Order and considered a grievous loss to the Order. He's able to defeat Tholme on Saleucami and if not for his and Aayla's spiritual interventions, would have proceeded to kill Quinlan Vos as well.
If he's not the more powerful one, he's clearly the much smarter fighter.

I was referring to Kit/Agen/Saesee, perhaps I misread.

Where was Ki featured much, I must ask? As for Cin: honestly, here: Do you really think someone put up in that esteem with council members, a former Padawan of Yoda himself, the battlemaster and described as possessing 'legendary saber skills, as well as having mastered all forms with the exception of seven.
Yes, the others have done quite a bit-except maybe Saesee discounting Mace's high opinion of him, but is it more logical Cin is an overhyped chump or that he's probably pretty damn good, though not top tier?

He got killed by Vader and was described as being no match for him.
After all the hype cin gets from other sources, is Cin very bad, or is Anakin just very good?

In addition to everything else?
If this is intending to make Drallig suck, I'm not sure what the real point is...

I've never made him out to be one. He's a remarkably good duelist, one of the best of the Order and killing him singlehandedly is a big feather in Anakin's cap.

Yeah, Faunus, it does. Like it or not, Cin is one of the better duelists of the age, by virtue of the numerous sources and logic alone, and killing him is meant to showcase how good Vader is. To quote: "Drallig's dueling skills, formidable as they might have been, were no match for Lord Vader's."
Don't go diminishing the feat by comparing killing a saber master to younglings in some point I can't even begin to grasp the idea behind. It doesn't fly.

I suppose we can also discount Exar's victory against Vodo and Maul's against Anoon's, then. They have just about as much to their name as Drallig-little else but sources and very little onscreen action.

Noted.

who is bildo delaba, anakin wins.

Anakin wont blow past her, I'd actually be close to his fight with Dooku in terms of length and difficulty, at least IMO. Depa is no slouch, but shes no Dooku and shes no Anakin, despite with Mace says about her.