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I'm confused on the issue of Harry's sacrifice in Deathly Hallows. During his final confrontation with Voldemort, Harry tells the Dark Lord that he "won't be killing anyone else" -- that Harry's sacrifice has protected them from him -- hence why all of his silencing charms have failed.

I'm confused about the depth of that sacrifice. It didn't exactly stop all of Voldemort's spells, did it? Because he did manage to keep the crowd quiet, he just replaced the silencing charm every time they broke it. So it isn't as if Voldemort's spells had no effect, correct? Because the book also says that as Voldemort retreated into the Great Hall he was "striking and smiting all within reach" and that Harry had to put shield charms in front of the Dark Lord's potential victims. Aaand he did kick McG's, Kingsley's and Slughorn's asses all at once.

So could someone smarter and better informed than my lowly self explain this apparent discrepency?

Originally posted by Gideon
Aaand he did kick McG's, Kingsley's and Slughorn's asses all at once.
Wrong. It was a stalemate.


It said that they wove and ducked around him, unable to finish him. Nowhere does it indicate that they were getting beaten badly.

Wrong. It wasn't. But thanks for your contribution. I make a thread about a subject, and instead of actually answering my question, you wish to contest a minor detail -- and then you fail to do so.

...Can anyone who doesn't feel the urge to contest minor points answer my question?



"Harry felt as though he turned in slow motion; he saw McGonagall, Kingsley, and Slughorn blasted backward, flailing and writhing through the air, as Voldemort's fury at the fall of his last, best lieutenant exploded with the force of a bomb."

- Page 737

...So, we have a three-on-one duel with the "one" person potentially handicapped in the manner that he is unable to kill his opponent (according to Harry) and he still manages to subdue them -- all at once, with one move? -- that is an ass kicking.

Originally posted by Gideon
Because the book also says that as Voldemort retreated into the Great Hall he was "striking and smiting all within reach" and that Harry had to put shield charms in front of the Dark Lord's potential victims.

The book only tells something about the shield charms for Seamus and Hannah, nothing about the rest of the Dark Lord's potential victims.
And about the ''striking and smiting'' part, in HBP Dumbledor says: ''Once again, Lord Voldemort fails to grasp that there are much more terrible things than physical injury" (p. 523, just before they enter the cave which contains the Horcrux), which could mean that Voldemort was just trying to hit anyone because he thought that they would be weakened and after that just an easy target.

Originally posted by stuwienl
The book only tells something about the shield charms for Seamus and Hannah, nothing about the rest of the Dark Lord's potential victims.
And about the ''striking and smiting'' part, in HBP Dumbledor says: ''Once again, Lord Voldemort fails to grasp that there are much more terrible things than physical injury" (p. 523, just before they enter the cave which contains the Horcrux), which could mean that Voldemort was just trying to hit anyone because he thought that they would be weakened and after that just an easy target.

I think you misunderstand me. What I'm trying to understand is whether or not Voldemort was still able to kill anyone after Harry's sacrifice. Harry makes a big deal how none of Voldemort's spells are binding anymore, and so on, yet he still has to put Shield Charms in between Neville, Molly, and Seamus and Hannah when Voldemort goes to attack them.

Why?

i just started to get into Harry Potter so don't judge too harshly...But from what i understand only physical cover such as a wall or something can only block the killing curse (Avada Kedavra) there are no counter curses or blocking curses, so Harry's sacrifice (which must have been something like what his mother did for him, but on a smaller scale) may have help him strengthen his shield charm against the 3 "unforgivable curses", that would kinda make sense right? Or he is sacrifice was actually towards Voldemort weakening him without him even knowing it??

Originally posted by Jaster Fett
i just started to get into Harry Potter so don't judge too harshly...But from what i understand only physical cover such as a wall or something can only block the killing curse (Avada Kedavra) there are no counter curses or blocking curses, so Harry's sacrifice (which must have been something like what his mother did for him, but on a smaller scale) may have help him strengthen his shield charm against the 3 "unforgivable curses", that would kinda make sense right? Or he is sacrifice was actually towards Voldemort weakening him without him even knowing it??

It is my understanding that Harry's sacrifice was intended to work like Lily's -- Voldemort would simply be unable to kill them due to "love".

Originally posted by Gideon
I think you misunderstand me. What I'm trying to understand is whether or not Voldemort was still able to kill anyone after Harry's sacrifice. Harry makes a big deal how none of Voldemort's spells are binding anymore, and so on, yet he still has to put Shield Charms in between Neville, Molly, and Seamus and Hannah when Voldemort goes to attack them.

Why?

Yes, I did misunderstand you and now I see your point and I don't have an answer to it .

Simply to answer to your question: - Voldermort would not have been able to kill anyone after Harry's sacrifiction . But that doesn't mean that VV became powerless immediately, and that he could not hurt people any more.

let's see if I could answer this appropriately then.

Harry stated to Voldemort that he would not be able to kill anyone else because Harry knew that he would kill Voldemort in that confrontation and that all of the Horcruxes were destroyed so Voldemort wouldn't be able to come back.

As to why the silencing charms wouldn't work? Easy, Voldemort was the not the true owner of the Elder Wand, therefore his spells were weak.

I was confused just like you and I decided that it wasn't as strong as Lily's sacrifice because he didn't actually do it to protect them, he did it to kill Voldy's last horcrux, and in turn defended all of them......


And he can still cast stuff to blow the 2 aside, he just can't hurt them? I mean, he did blow up HArry's house when he was a baby?

Good question...

I believe that the destruction of Harry's house was part of the deflected curse, not anything Voldemort did after the fact. The second the curse hit him, he was rendered incorporeal and effectively powerless.



As much as I appreciate the explanation, I believe that this is false. Harry's reasoning following his declaration that Voldemort "wouldn't be able to kill anyone else" wasn't out of confidence that he'd win the duel, but rather that his sacrifice prevented Voldemort from successfully killing anymore students with Avada Kedavra, similar to how his mother had for him. And yet Voldemort was still able to "strike and smight" all within reach, and he effectively defeated Kingsley, McGonagall, and Slughorn simultaneously.

Lily's sacrifice didn't competely 'save' Harry. Harry still had part of Voldemort in him, and I would imagine it probably hurt thus the scar. What I think is that the protection doesn't fully render you 'invincible' but it gives you somesort of protection or endurance from Voldemort's killings. This said, if he did hit someone with a killing curse then something alike that to Harry's incident would happen. The person would still feel a great lot of pain and Voldemort's spell will once again backfire. However, like we know from Harry, the protected person won't be without harm.

Voldemort blasted aside the three duelist, he didn't threaten their lives. After Harry told Voldemort about the protection, he would obviously not dare to use any powerful spell against anyone, because it could either backfire on him or take a part of his soul again.

The protection only helps at moments of despair when someone's soul and body cannot withstand the spell. Meaning a simple charm or stunning spell won't really set it off.

Atleast, thats my theory.

I think Voldemorts spells would still hit the people, but they wouldn't feel anything. Like he could blast somebody and they could go flying into the wall, but they wouldn't fell pain or injury.

Because remember when Harry came back to life, Voldemort did the cruciatus curse to play with the "dead" Harry, and Harry said something like "The pain that he had expected surprisingly never came." So the spell still worked, but Harry didn't feel anything.

Well, we can compare Harry's sacrifice to Lily's.

Lily, knowing that she would die if she did not step aside and allow Voldemort to kill Harry, went into death under the Avada Kedavra curse willingly. We know this because Voldemort gave her a chance to be not killed ("Step aside, you silly girl!!" but she chose death so that Harry would not die. That is what the sacrifice means - protection against death, and JUST protection against death. Obviously, we know that it's just protection against death because Harry has been Crucioed by Voldemort (and other curses and hexes, negative spellage, have been rained upon him).

So. Harry willingly chooses death. He goes into this battle, having delegated the destruction of the remaining Horcrux (Nagini) to Neville. He goes out to Voldemort because he knows that it's the only way to give Neville time to finish off Nagini, or to perhaps save the Hogwarts population against some of Voldemort's wrath. Wasn't that the deal, or am I not remembering correctly? If Harry came out to Voldemort, Voldemort would obviously be occupied with killing him and therefore not attacking Hogwarts.

At any rate, Harry goes in to death, thinking he will die (obviously, it turns out that he survives) but the important part to remember is that Harry went in "knowing" that it was the end for him, he was doing it for the world, the students at Hogwarts, whoever. And so since he did have the intention of dying, just like Lily did, that protection of not being able to kill the people he sacrificed himself for goes over the people of Hogwarts. They can still be cursed or silenced or... whatever, but they cannot be killed by the Avada Kedavra - because Harry did that for them.

At least, that's how I interpreted it.

Originally posted by siriuswriter
Well, we can compare Harry's sacrifice to Lily's.

Lily, knowing that she would die if she did not step aside and allow Voldemort to kill Harry, went into death under the Avada Kedavra curse willingly. We know this because Voldemort gave her a chance to be not killed ("Step aside, you silly girl!!" but she chose death so that Harry would not die. That is what the sacrifice means - protection against death, and JUST protection against death. Obviously, we know that it's just protection against death because Harry has been Crucioed by Voldemort (and other curses and hexes, negative spellage, have been rained upon him).

So. Harry willingly chooses death. He goes into this battle, having delegated the destruction of the remaining Horcrux (Nagini) to Neville. He goes out to Voldemort because he knows that it's the only way to give Neville time to finish off Nagini, or to perhaps save the Hogwarts population against some of Voldemort's wrath. Wasn't that the deal, or am I not remembering correctly? If Harry came out to Voldemort, Voldemort would obviously be occupied with killing him and therefore not attacking Hogwarts.

At any rate, Harry goes in to death, thinking he will die (obviously, it turns out that he survives) but the important part to remember is that Harry went in "knowing" that it was the end for him, he was doing it for the world, the students at Hogwarts, whoever. And so since he did have the intention of dying, just like Lily did, that protection of not being able to kill the people he sacrificed himself for goes over the people of Hogwarts. They can still be cursed or silenced or... whatever, but they cannot be killed by the Avada Kedavra - because Harry did that for them.

At least, that's how I interpreted it.

Yeah, but you kinda misunderstood what Gideon was asking. Why did Harry use a shield spell against Voldemorts curse when it was about to hit someone if he knew the protection was on them and that they would be safe? How did Voldemort's silence charm work on the students if they had the protection charm on?


Originally posted by DanZeke25
I think Voldemorts spells would still hit the people, but they wouldn't feel anything. Like he could blast somebody and they could go flying into the wall, but they wouldn't fell pain or injury.

Because remember when Harry came back to life, Voldemort did the cruciatus curse to play with the "dead" Harry, and Harry said something like "The pain that he had expected surprisingly never came." So the spell still worked, but Harry didn't feel anything.

I don't really think so becuase the protection wasn't ON Harry, it was on the people who he sacrificed his life for. And if nobody would feel injury I don't really think that Harry would've even stopped the killing curse from hitting Mrs. Weasley. (The curse was about to hit her, right?)

Precisely, Spidervlad. That is the million-dollar question, and one seemingly worth a lot of speculation and theories.

From what we've gathered from the narrative and the dialogue during the final confrontation, Harry's sacrifice removed the permenancy and binding from Lord Voldemort's spells. Harry -- and the book -- mention how Voldemort is unable to completely hold the crowd in silence. Harry then boasts that Voldemort will no longer be able to kill any of them, even should Harry die. What is the extent of this?

Are we to assume that he is referring to the Killing Curse? Death is, for most people at least (excluding Harry and Voldemort), binding. So does Harry's sacrifice refer only to the Killing Curse -- in essence, had he removed its finality? Should, say, Voldemort attempt to use it on a student, it wouldn't work? This seems to be the best idea that I can come up with, given how the Cruciatus Curse no longer had its ultimate effect, and Neville was able to eventually break out of Voldemort's Body-Bind hex after his brief torture.

But, as we saw, even after Harry's sacrifice, Voldemort was not rendered powerless. Though his Silencing Charms were unable to hold the crowd, they did so for a while. After one broke, he did succeed in shutting them up with "another, stronger" curse. And still, Harry was forced to use Shield Charms on those whom Voldemort attacked as the Death Eaters were forced back into the main hall.

So, what were the final effects of his sacrifice, exactly? Did it merely render the Avada Kedavra curse obsolete? Because Voldemort was still capable of harming and potentially killing his enemies -- he just had to use a variety and plethora of spells -- forcing Harry to try to protect them with shield charms. Lastly, Voldemort was still capable of overpowering three supremely powerful wizards who had the advantage of not being affected by Harry's sacrifice (in that they could still kill him).

Any takers?

Originally posted by Spidervlad
Lily's sacrifice didn't competely 'save' Harry. Harry still had part of Voldemort in him, and I would imagine it probably hurt thus the scar. What I think is that the protection doesn't fully render you 'invincible' but it gives you somesort of protection or endurance from Voldemort's killings. This said, if he did hit someone with a killing curse then something alike that to Harry's incident would happen. The person would still feel a great lot of pain and Voldemort's spell will once again backfire. However, like we know from Harry, the protected person won't be without harm.

Voldemort blasted aside the three duelist, he didn't threaten their lives. After Harry told Voldemort about the protection, he would obviously not dare to use any powerful spell against anyone, because it could either backfire on him or take a part of his soul again.

The protection only helps at moments of despair when someone's soul and body cannot withstand the spell. Meaning a simple charm or stunning spell won't really set it off.

Atleast, thats my theory.

I can only guess that. That the "effect" and "protection" of Harry's sacrifice comes only at the most needed of times, at times of death or life. Such time would come when you were hit by a killing curse, or anything fatal. If the same protection was on Harry, and when Harry was hit by the Avada Kedavra curse, he wasn't fully whole and uninjured, was he? Part of Voldemort was sealed in inside him, and he got himself a painful scar. So maybe the sacrifice gives a person the ability to survive such fatal attacks, but not without consequences?

Perhaps.

But I would hesitate to say that Voldemort was completely unable to kill any of them at that point. Perhaps not with the Avada Kedavra curse, but likely with other means.

At the very least, we saw that he was still leagues more powerful than any one present that day, and all of them had the benefit of being able to attack and kill each other.

Maybe Harry meant that Voldemort wasn't going to be able to kill anyone after their final battle, because he wasn't too sure if he would survive, and if he died he would have sacrificed himself for everyone else.

But Lily's sacrifice was supposed to have been worn off, wasn't it?

this is the answer he cant kill anyone because harry sacraficed himself for all of them. like his mom did for him simple answer. and V is not the true owner of the elder wand thats why it doesnt work for him like it is suppose to