Darth Nihilus vs. Darth Revan

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Nikkolas
Nihilus canonically killed an entire world with just a word. He arrived over Katarr and in an instant, everything was dead. Buildings were destroyed, flesh was stripped from bone and the entire planet was an echo in the Force.

Also, as stated by Tobin and shown on the loading screen of KOTOR II, Nihilus pulled the Ravager from the "mass shadoes of Malachor". And Tobin even insists it was a fleet.

It seems pointless to post my entire essay proving why Nihilus is more powerful than Revan. Those two feats will do.

Nihilus, the man who kills all things in his presence and who will destroy the galaxy, against a guy who never even showed 1/3 of his foe's power.

Who wins in a Force fight? Going by evidence? Not conjecture or theories based on nothing that Revan knows Nihilus' ability.

Darth Sexy
Logical deduciton is considered as evidence Nikkolas. Stop trying to cause shit because you're a fanboy.

Atticus
Originally posted by Nikkolas
Nihilus canonically killed an entire world with just a word. He arrived over Katarr and in an instant, everything was dead. Buildings were destroyed, flesh was stripped from bone and the entire planet was an echo in the Force.

Also, as stated by Tobin and shown on the loading screen of KOTOR II, Nihilus pulled the Ravager from the "mass shadoes of Malachor". And Tobin even insists it was a fleet.

It seems pointless to post my entire essay proving why Nihilus is more powerful than Revan. Those two feats will do.

Nihilus, the man who kills all things in his presence and who will destroy the galaxy, against a guy who never even showed 1/3 of his foe's power.

Who wins in a Force fight? Going by evidence? Not conjecture or theories based on nothing that Revan knows Nihilus' ability.

Ah crap here we go

Darth Sexy
Originally posted by Nikkolas
Nihilus canonically killed an entire world with just a word. He arrived over Katarr and in an instant, everything was dead. Buildings were destroyed, flesh was stripped from bone and the entire planet was an echo in the Force.
I've already proven this isn't the case because if Nihilus kills by speaking, there wouldn't be a KOTOR. Get your facts straight, and stop parading around "Oh its in the game so it must be true without any chance of it being a contradiction".


Great, Tobin insists. You can post your essay as often as you'd like, and it still wouldn't make it true.


Your logic is beyond me. I think you should go over to EOD, they're looking for morons.

Manslayer
And just to add to that DS, nihilus technique isnt a singular technique

Nikkolas
No matter how he did it, he killed an entire planet and everyone on it in an instant.

Actions speak louder than words.



If you say it's not true, it's up to you to prove it.

I have Tobin's quote, a canon quote put in the game by the developers.

You have your opinion and...nothing else.

Provide evidence he didn't lift the Ravager and the fleet from Malachor.

Especially since the loading screen SAYS so.



You don't provide evidence.

So, I don't care what you think.

Darth Sexy
Then shut the **** up and stop bitching, you're annoying as hell. I've already offered my proof, if you don't like it, boo hoo. Your debating skills and understanding of canon policy is laughable. Go back to the drawing board.

Nikkolas
No. You haven't.

Give me one quote or source you've shown.

My essay is proof.

It links to sources such as cenes from KOTOR II, comics and offers varified quotes from people in the game.

So far, you've proven nothing.

You've made a lot of claims, though.

Darth Sexy
Your essay involves fallible 3rd party characters. My summary involves logical deduction that can't really be refuted because it IS logical. Stop bitching.

Nikkolas
Your logical deduction can't be refuted because they can't be proven at all.

They aren't said anywhere.

They aren't hinted at.

They aren't implied.

Your "logical deductions" are nothing more than your opinion with no offical source.

My essay has proof from all sources involving the character.

CANOn comics.

CANON scenes from teh game.

CANOn quotes.

In short, I offer official word while you offer your opinion.

Darth Sexy
Originally posted by Nikkolas
Your logical deduction can't be refuted because they can't be proven at all.

They aren't said anywhere.

They aren't hinted at.

They aren't implied.

Your "logical deductions" are nothing more than your opinion with no offical source.
Oh my god. You don't even know what logical deduction means. I'm through with you.


Quotes from a fallible 3rd party character. What comics? What scenes?



No, you have proven that you have no concept of the canon policy so I'm going to disregard your entire argument. ..

Janus Marius
Jeez, this is a bit like trying to prove who's a better pazaak player- Han Solo or Atton Rand.

Oh wait, except that we don't have any canon instances of Atton actually winning a game of pazaak and we can only gather his proficiency from his ability to teach it, to count cards, and how he knows all the traps the Exchange sets up for gamblers who play Pazaak with high stakes.

So I assume that because Han Solo actually has some canon material showing him gambling and playing games and Atton's ability is only implied, Han Solo wins?

By this same line of reasoning, Kit Fisto has a starring role in The Cestus Deception and Freedon Nadd is never seen waiving his glowstick; Kit Fisto beats him?

I mean really, you're pitting someone with virtually little to no canon material we can substantiate versus someone who is a very real and visible opponent on another piece of material. I do believe that Nihilus, due to his very nature, is likely to be too much for Revan to handle. He can swallow groups of Force users apparently, man a broken ship and its crew with his will alone, and can WTFpwn Sion (Cut material) and Traya (Flashback) with as much effort as it takes for me to scratch my ass.

But it all comes down to this thread demanding that Revan supports pull something from nothing, when the wisest course of action is to concede that evidence is not forthcoming, but absence of proof is not proof of absence either. For all we know KotOR III could come out and Revan could play Force-pool with the Outer Rim and summon Exar Kun's spirit just so he can use it to animate his T3 unit.

So really, this thread serves no purpose other than to further an agenda and to flare already flared tempers.

Lightsnake
What IS it with you and the word 'glowstick?'

Janus Marius
It's a cool kid thing. You wouldn't understand, foo.

Lightsnake
Damn the cool kids...

Btw, Janus, should we expect a reply from you in the big topic soon? Looking forward to seeing your responses

Janus Marius
So am I. But not tonight. I am hella tired. The only reason I was able to megapost the other night is because I stayed up late and consequently dragged ass at work the following day. If I can manage something tomorrowish I will. Or, most likely I'll take each point and instead of replying point-by-point, I'll make a consolidated address for the entire argument. I find that when I quote and pick, it just escalates and gets confusing after awhile, with people sniping at each other's statements so long that they lose sight of what the original disagreement was.

Lightsnake
Well, I'm just responding to things I think are points of contention in my argument, there. I'm making an honest effort to cut back on the sniping.

And whenever's best by you is fine, Janus. Though, if it's alright by you, you can respond to my points and Escape's separately to avoid confusion. And this is where I bug you, again, to get some sort of IM to use at some sort of regular interval.

Janus Marius
Yeah, that would work. I always neglect my IM programs lately, but it's because I want to focus on the forums more.


Btw, I got a major upgrade in Sig and Avy size for all my years of being a disgruntled member here. Awesome.

Lightsnake
Tsk, tsk. Be sure to sign on sometimes, though. I'd like to talk to you outside the forums at times.

Thousand
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Your essay involves fallible 3rd party characters. My summary involves logical deduction that can't really be refuted because it IS logical. Stop bitching.
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Logical deduciton is considered as evidence Nikkolas. Stop trying to cause shit because you're a fanboy.

A) Stop spouting useless jargon about how logical you are when all you've done is throw around rhetoric about how you can perform logical deductions in a verbal manner.
B) Your apparent angry state and avatar convince me that it's heavily possible that you are a Revan fanboy.

Captain REX
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Then shut the **** up and stop bitching, you're annoying as hell. I've already offered my proof, if you don't like it, boo hoo. Your debating skills and understanding of canon policy is laughable. Go back to the drawing board.

Let's see if I can translate that correctly...

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
I'm asking for it.

Sorry, Darth, but that's a warning to you. I don't know what makes you think you can get away with that. If you dislike Nikkolas or his views, than you can use the Ignore feature or simply keep it to yourself.

Thousand
Omfg, Soundgarden fan. Yay!

Darth Sexy
Originally posted by Thousand
A) Stop spouting useless jargon about how logical you are when all you've done is throw around rhetoric about how you can perform logical deductions in a verbal manner.
Someone's been using dictionary.com with incredible efficiency. Except I DID perform a logical deduction, so thanks for pointing out the obvious.

My angry state and avatar somehow gives you the conclusion that I'm a Revan fanboy. Wow, I didn't take you for much a debater, but now we can add psycholgist to that one.

tulakhordpwns
where?
all you have done here is try to refute Nikkolas's statements

Darth Sexy
1. That is my job when his statements aren't 100% fact.

2. Revan knowing NIihlus' tehnique is a logical deduction based on him pillaging both Korriban and the underground cities of Malachor V.

Janus Marius
I'm not sure where you make that connection from, really. Revan did have access to Korriban and Malachor V before other Sith of his era, and his works before he returned to the Republic captured in his holocron gave Bane the neccessary ingrediants for a Thought-Bomb. But there's nothing to indicate that a Force-draining ability on the scale of Nihilus' was ever in his keeping or ability. That remains conjecture based on vague assertions at its best. I could also assume that because Sidious took over the Jedi temple he can do a "wall of light", blind someone to the Force, or do moricho, but the canon evidence for him doing or having the ability to do any of those things is, if I'm not mistaken, lacking.

Darth Sexy
Originally posted by Janus Marius
I'm not sure where you make that connection from, really. Revan did have access to Korriban and Malachor V before other Sith of his era, and his works before he returned to the Republic captured in his holocron gave Bane the neccessary ingrediants for a Thought-Bomb. But there's nothing to indicate that a Force-draining ability on the scale of Nihilus' was ever in his keeping or ability. That remains conjecture based on vague assertions at its best. I could also assume that because Sidious took over the Jedi temple he can do a "wall of light", blind someone to the Force, or do moricho, but the canon evidence for him doing or having the ability to do any of those things is, if I'm not mistaken, lacking.

So what you're saying Janus, is that Revan, who plundered the underground cities of Malachor V, couldn't know the tehnique, whereas Nihilus learned it somewhere ON the surface of Malachor V? That makes absolutely no sense, unless you were to tell me that by being a wound in the force, that technique became natural for him, in which case I will have no argument for that. I don't think it's a stretch because this can be logically deduced.
Furthermore, if Sidious did capture all of the Jedi holocrons then its NOT a stretch to deduce that Sidious did know the techniques that were in those holocrons. In fact it's more than probable considering Sidious' had an insatiable thirst for force knowledge. Also, keep in mind that as a dark side user, you can't just go around using light side techniques.

Now, we know that one of the techniques that Bane learned was the thought bomb. However, notice how in POD it states that Revan knew techniques that would make Bane shit his pants, and that not even full fledged sith masters would touch. This COULD be a stretch but it wouldn't be illogical to state that one of these scary force techniques could have been the force eating technique.

Janus Marius
No, it's not. I suggest you take a reading comprehension class, because you're strawmanning and totally missing the point.

My point is that there's no conclusive evidence that Revan has such abilities. He may; he may not. You cannot prove it either way. So why make the assumption that he does have it? That begs for burden of proof, and the fact of the matter is you have absolutely nothing to bring to the table except for "he was on the planet".

Exar Kun was on Yavin IV for enough time that his Massassi built him "hundreds of temples". I don't make the assumption that Exar Kun could do massive illusions like Naga Sadow or create amulets like the one he acquired like they're candy. Simply being there isn't a strong enough connection to directly show that they have the ability.

You're also making two other assumptions here:

1. That Nihilus' own nature didn't change or enhance his understanding of the Force drain technique.

2. That all knowledge the ancient Sith had squirreled away on Malachor V was simple enough and feasible enough for each Sith Lord to study, learn, and eventually master in less than a decade. And again, these Sith Lords lived longer lives than most sentients. This is like me saying that I can walk into a deserted library in southern Greece and then suddenly say I know so much about Spartan history that I can replicate their feats and training and master it simply by virtue of possessing the knowledge.

That's just plain assinine.



Kreia's statements on Nihilus' mentality and his purpose imply that he is less a man and more a force of nature so to speak. Since no other Force user has seemingly become such a thing, it seems unlikely that other practitioners had this advantage he does. Ragnos' scepter was able to strip the Force from planets and Sidious eventually was able to drain the lifeforce from an entire species using his own power, but neither of these two individuals ceased to be just that... individuals. They did not run about the galaxy sapping planets because of their hunger. If anything, Nihilus' hunger implies that he must feed and must have the means to feed. This makes force drain not only come natural to him; it's his first priority. But we can see it's not his only strength. In cut material, he floors Sion and in the flashback we can see he effortlessly throws her around like a rag doll. Whatever level he's operating on, it's extreme.



Yes, it is. It assumes the following:

1. That the holocrons were all in working order and not locked or otherwise inaccessible.

2. That the holocrons could be accessed by those of the dark side.

3. That the holocrons could be understood and mastered within the few decades he had them. Mind you, the Jedi temple had literally millenia-old scrolls, holocrons, books, etc. More knowledge than any one being could ever accomplish. Apparently, he's taking the online summer class and will be a master of every conceivable technique on no time.

4. That he would ever want to know the wall of light, or blinding someone to the Force or otherwise using techniques not of the dark side. I doubt such techniques were little more than a curiosity to him, seeing as how he wasn't impressed with the greatest Jedi master in the last millenium.



Perhaps you could illuminate me with a quote, from a page please? I don't recall this at all.

Lightsnake
I can't give an exact quote, but the general effect was: Some things Bane learned from Revan's holocron were too frightening for Bane to use...the Thought Bomb was one of the 'darker' techniques.

Janus Marius
Is this narration, or third party perspective? It all seems quite vague to me. The Thought-Bomb, which eliminates all life on a given planet, is pretty dark. But I would assume a Force-drain which has the ability to strip a planet and all on it would be much higher on the list.

Darth Sexy
Originally posted by Janus Marius
No, it's not. I suggest you take a reading comprehension class, because you're strawmanning and totally missing the point.

My point is that there's no conclusive evidence that Revan has such abilities. He may; he may not. You cannot prove it either way. So why make the assumption that he does have it? That begs for burden of proof, and the fact of the matter is you have absolutely nothing to bring to the table except for "he was on the planet".

Exar Kun was on Yavin IV for enough time that his Massassi built him "hundreds of temples". I don't make the assumption that Exar Kun could do massive illusions like Naga Sadow or create amulets like the one he acquired like they're candy. Simply being there isn't a strong enough connection to directly show that they have the ability.

You're also making two other assumptions here:

1. That Nihilus' own nature didn't change or enhance his understanding of the Force drain technique.

2. That all knowledge the ancient Sith had squirreled away on Malachor V was simple enough and feasible enough for each Sith Lord to study, learn, and eventually master in less than a decade. And again, these Sith Lords lived longer lives than most sentients. This is like me saying that I can walk into a deserted library in southern Greece and then suddenly say I know so much about Spartan history that I can replicate their feats and training and master it simply by virtue of possessing the knowledge.

That's just plain assinine.
Ok this is understandable. I've never taken a debate course but I was under the assumption that a logical deduction can not only be made, but that it could also be admissible in this case. It's not just a plain black and white "he either knows it or he doesn't".




Well the Sion scene isn't canon but yea, I'll grant this he has ability. Whether it's magnified by his being a wound, is debatable.




1 and 2 aside, Sidious was described as knowing "every dark and light side technique". This is obviously quite vague but it gives us some idea of what he does. He studies the force, that's ALL he does, so it wouldn't be a stretch to say he could learn these techniques if they were indeed available to him. Also, concerning #4, he DID study the light side of the force whether from Plagueis (almost a certainty), or himself, so it's not like he'd shun a technique because it's a lightside technique. He takes techniques for what they're worth, power.

Darth Sexy
Originally posted by Janus Marius
Is this narration, or third party perspective? It all seems quite vague to me. The Thought-Bomb, which eliminates all life on a given planet, is pretty dark. But I would assume a Force-drain which has the ability to strip a planet and all on it would be much higher on the list.

I'm currently looking for it in my book, will have the page # in a minute.

Darth Sexy
Page 229. I don't know if you have the book so I'll just quote the paragraph.

"To Bane it seemed the teachings contained within the single Holocron surpassed those of the Academy's entire archives. Revan had discovered MANY of the rituals of the ancient sith, and as the holocron's avatar explained their nature and purpose, Bane could barely wrap his mind around their awesome potential. Some of the rituals were so terrible, so dangerous to attempt, even for a true sith master, he doubted he would ever dare to use them.

Lightsnake
Originally posted by Janus Marius
Is this narration, or third party perspective? It all seems quite vague to me. The Thought-Bomb, which eliminates all life on a given planet, is pretty dark. But I would assume a Force-drain which has the ability to strip a planet and all on it would be much higher on the list.
The Thought Bomb eliminates the lives of Force Sensitives in a given radius, not a planet. Farfalla and Bane survived because they weren't in the range.

And I'm pretty sure it was narration

Janus Marius
A logical assertion is made any time someone tries to make a point or prove a fact about something. A logical argument is the case he/she builds surrounding this assertion to give it validity and meaning. A logical deduction is simply a template of coming about a supposed truth through eliminating clear and evident falsehoods.

So with this in mind, the idea that Revan possesses the same or better techniques than Nihilus is an assertion, as is the idea that he has mastered them to some degree or another, or that he has mastered them above Nihilus' own ability.

The logical argument behind this seems to stem from a) Revan having access to Sith storeholds of techniques and knowledge we know only hearsay about, and b) a vague line from PoD. This is flimsy at best.

Mind you, I'm not denying the possibility that Revan could Force-spank the living shit out of Nihilus, but the arguments made simply cannot hold any water at this point. Revan is too much of an unknown, and the knowledge we have on hand is too vague.



The scene with Sion is supposed to have been released but was cut due to production time constraints. That scene, along with a few others, however, are clearly referenced in cutscenes that did not get chopped. As well, you can find a lot of information still in the game files which were not used but made shipping.

And as for Nihilus; it's important to realize that Traya had access to a powerful Force drain ability, yet she could not overcome him nor could she hope to outdo him on this level. Seeing as Nihilus is the only one who's roaming about sucking planets dry, it would make sense that his state of being a massive wound either enhances this, or is a direct result of his mastery of the technique.



Do you have a valid source for the first statement? That seems so hyperbolic that my computer threatened to blue screen on me when the sentence generated. The idea that Sidious could know every single technique from both sides of the Force and yet still be defeated by a fledgling Skywalker or chucked into a reactor by a crippled Vader simply baffles the mind.

Second, Sidious already has enough power and little to no threats against his power by the time he has the time to sack the temple for knowledge. I really don't see him sitting down for years and learning every single (And I mean every single) light side technique possible. I agree that he likely plundered some of it, but the exact extent is simply not available. It is very unlikely that he had seen, read, and mastered everything. Simply unbelievable.



True, but a majority of Jedi teachings are about what?

The Code. Peace, serenity, healing, etc. It's not like the Jedi had virtual a-bomb techniques just laying around in easy eBook format for him to read. He would have to bust his ass just to find out and then master a technique that a Jedi Order hadn't apparently mastered and they had far more time to dedicate themselves (And reason) then he did.

So while again I do agree that he likely had a fieldday with their records, there's absolutely nothing logical about him accessing and learning everything. It's not even possible, given the depth of sources available at the temple.

Janus Marius
Awesome. Thanks for the source. This is actually quite interesting. Isn't Drew Revan's creator, btw?

Darth Sexy
Hence the verbal fellatios in this book. But Revan's my favorite character so I'm not one to complain

Lightsnake
Originally posted by Janus Marius
A logical assertion is made any time someone tries to make a point or prove a fact about something. A logical argument is the case he/she builds surrounding this assertion to give it validity and meaning. A logical deduction is simply a template of coming about a supposed truth through eliminating clear and evident falsehoods.

So with this in mind, the idea that Revan possesses the same or better techniques than Nihilus is an assertion, as is the idea that he has mastered them to some degree or another, or that he has mastered them above Nihilus' own ability.
Well, we do know that Nihilus's technique isn't singularly unique due to the Sith sorceress who destroyed Ambria. I've viewed Nihilus as more unique to his nature, rather than abilities-though his power is immense

I'm pretty sure there's more...I'll take a glance later

Agreed



Unfortunately, I'm pretty sure cut content doesn't hold much water unless officially referenced later...
Not that he couldn't own Sion, Sion is directly confirmed at Ni's Apprentice

You're neglecting a few things here, Janus:
We do know that, canonically, Palpatine's powers and knowledge do cover these areas. For starters: At the fight with Palpatine and Luke, both became living Avatars of the opposite sides of the Force (As did Ganner Rhysode in Traitor, or Jacen Solo in The Unifying Force), pure being of light and dark whose clash could be felt across the galaxy by every Force Sensitive.
It's not something seen before, or ever again. As for Vader...Palpatine was simply caught off guard and too blinded by fury with Luke's refusal to do more than direct his lightning at Vader-which, in fairness, was still a kill eventually. Palpatine, given Vader taking a place beside him, figured he had Vader whipped...and there isn't a Force technique for teleportation, so Palpatine couldn't very well react in the few seconds there. By the same token, one could also show skepticism of Ludo Kressh after he watches a smaller ship crash into his, unable to affect the course when Jedi such as Luke or Yoda have been seen to move larger ships.

That's more or less what he did on the most part. He has used Malacia, Morichro and a dark form of healing in the past.

Palpatine, at this point, had decided to live forever and master everything to ensure his rule became absolute. Palpatine, it should indeed be noted, has an extreme hunger for knowledge



Generally, Jedi techniques focus on serenity and peace, but you can easily twist them to the Dark Side if you want to-Cade Skywalker's Jedi healing abilities being a good example

The Great Holocron could indeed cover most of it and given how long it generally takes to master a wide bevy of things-Bane learns all his knowledge in about 2 weeks, Exar Kun masters all the power of Naga Sadow in six months...from Palpatine's youth to old age, spent in constant communion, sheer study? Not that improbable

Darth Sexy
Originally posted by Janus Marius
A logical assertion is made any time someone tries to make a point or prove a fact about something. A logical argument is the case he/she builds surrounding this assertion to give it validity and meaning. A logical deduction is simply a template of coming about a supposed truth through eliminating clear and evident falsehoods.

So with this in mind, the idea that Revan possesses the same or better techniques than Nihilus is an assertion, as is the idea that he has mastered them to some degree or another, or that he has mastered them above Nihilus' own ability.

The logical argument behind this seems to stem from a) Revan having access to Sith storeholds of techniques and knowledge we know only hearsay about, and b) a vague line from PoD. This is flimsy at best.
Fair enough, thanks for the definitions.



While it's difficult to believe it is canon but that's not the point. Sidious lost to Skywalker because he got cocky and didn't think Vader could be turned back, it had absolutely nothing to do with his force abilities. Furthermore, by DE it's very likely that judging by his power, he


You're right but what he did for 20 years? He learned force techniques, he learned on Korriban, etc..

Janus Marius
I'll be bloody honest; I am not about to derail this thread by debating the validity of Sidious' knowledge. So while I do acknowledge your points, LS, I won't address them here.

Lightsnake
Gotcha. I was honestly wondering how that discussion even started

Janus Marius
Meh, same way it always does. I think we should perhaps consider ignoring the movie-era characters when referencing EU characters because the two operate in mutually exclusive universes.

Lightsnake
Oh, if we kept to the subject in every thread, we'd hardly have any discussion

Janus Marius
This is true.

Btw, I've heard that Nihilus' language and the language of the Sith holocrons is basically English backwards. Has anyone verified this or translated it?

Lightsnake
I think it's the same reason so many people in the game look alike.

Just a bit of laziness on the developers

Janus Marius
Actually, LS, there's a perfectly canon reason for that.

See, in the SW universe, all humans come from the same family. Even all Echani look alike.

Lightsnake
Despite it being commented on how one's supposed to look different from the others, yes.

Nikkolas
Ho wmany black people are there in the SW Universe?

Mace, the one captain of Amidala's guard and I thinkt hat one NRI chick who appeared in the Corellian Trilogy was supposed to be black but I'm not sure.

Darth Sexy
I would love to see someone spew some liberal rhetortic "300" style and call Star Wars racist.

Nikkolas
Welcome to the Galactic Empire.

Where only old British white men can rule.

Janus Marius
Originally posted by Nikkolas
Welcome to the Galactic Empire.

Where only old British white men can rule.

Approved and quoted for Janus Seal of Quality.

Thousand
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Someone's been using dictionary.com with incredible efficiency. Except I DID perform a logical deduction, so thanks for pointing out the obvious.

No, someone just attended high school and actually listened. You did? Where? In that other post where you call this a Logical deduction?



Sadly, that is not a logical deduction.




Stop this ridiculous rhetorical banter. Do you think it ACTUALLY assists you when you patronize your opponents to a bitter degree? You sit here and actually can find the nerve to call me a bad debater when you don't know how to perform one of the most basic logical tasks in debating? The chinese can smell the irony all the way from their homeland, FFS.

"The Sith have red Lightsabers. Sion has a Red Lightsaber. Therefore, he is Sith."

Logical Deduction. Plain and simple. What you did was not a Logical deduction.

The whole "Pseudo Intellectual" thing doesn't quite suit you.

Darth Hord
Originally posted by Nikkolas
Ho wmany black people are there in the SW Universe?

Mace, the one captain of Amidala's guard and I thinkt hat one NRI chick who appeared in the Corellian Trilogy was supposed to be black but I'm not sure.

Anyone notice that there aren't any black bad guys really?

Darth Sexy
Originally posted by Thousand
Sadly, that is not a logical deduction.
Sadly it is. Revan pillaged the underground cities while NIhilus gained the technique while on the surface, for a shorter time. It is LOGICALLY possible and probable that Revan knew this technique because of this. Not to mention POD and his holocron. That IS logical deduction.





I've seen your debates. My point stands.


No, that's called inductive reasoning because you have 2 premises and a conclusion that COULD be true. If this was deductive reasoning, your argument would be invalid seeing as how the conclusion MUST be true, and yours COULD be true.. So much for your debating abilities. Now if you turned that around like this:
Premise 1: The Sith have red lightsabers
Premise 2: Sion is a Sith
Conclusion: Sion has a red lightsaber

THIS would be valid logical deduction, not the crap you are spewing. I suggest YOU take a logical reasoning course as your facts are messed up.


The same thing goes for you and debating.

Darth Hord
Actually it has some backing behind it, as i was the one who first suggested it (but for the record im not saying what it is or isnt)


Originally posted by Darth Hord
It is not exactly baseless i did put reason into my thinking when i said that, but Im not saying what it could be that the attack that bane was afraid but im fairly positive it was not the thought bomb as i said here

And in the force department Nihilus only has the one technique and better tk then revan.That we know of anyway Revan as sexy said has all of korriban and malachor V. In PoD Bane says that he had learn more from Revan's holocron than he learned on Korriban.(or something along those lines). Not only that but Bane was scarred of some of the techniques Revan knew. And he told Kaan about the thought bomb (which he also learned from Revan's holocron) so I doubt he would tell Kaan an attack that he was frightened of especially since Bane viewed kaan and the brotherhood as weak. This leads me to believe that the thought bomb was not the attack Bane was referring to that he was scared. And not to mention Revan's version of the force storm that killed several rakatan scouting parties at once in an instant.


I would also say that it would make little sense for Bane to give them an attack that he was scarred of because it must have been a threat to him if it were used at all and bane didnt seem that scared of the thought bomb to me. And he felt that he was the one that need to reorganize the sith so he wouldnt give them an attack that could be used against him.

kamhal
Actually you did no less then the fallacy of the modus ponens...

Darth Sexy
Shhh.. Let big mouth figure it out..

Thousand
Originally posted by kamhal
Actually you did no less then the fallacy of the modus ponens...

If you're referring to "Modus ponendo ponens", that's not a Logical Fallacy. It's a valid form of debate. I prefer "Affirming the Antecedent", really. I find the latin naming unappealing.

Thousand
You're not getting it. I can see where you're coming from but what you're saying is not a proper logical deduction. Stop passing it off as one.



I just saw yours. This is why your continuous patronization towards me remains nothing less or more than mere irony.




My logic can work either way. I'm going to pull examples of Logical Deduction from the web and examples of Inductive logic.


Logical Deduction examples:

* All men are mortal. Socrates is a man. Therefore Socrates is mortal.
* All feminists are unreasonable. She is a feminist. Therefore she is unreasonable.
* All birds are black. That is a bird. Therefore is black.

Premise 1: All men are mortal.
Premise 2: Socrates is a man.
Conclusion: Therefore Socrates is mortal.

Premise 1: The Sith have red lightsabers
Premise 2: Sion is a Sith
Conclusion: Sion has a red lightsaber

Premise 1: The Sith have red lightsabers
Premise 2: Sion has a red lightsabers
Conclusion: Sion is a Sith

Although the second equation leaves more room for apparent elaboration, the equation is not fallible because it remains as a truth.

^ Logical Deduction.


Now, here for Inductive Logic:

This ice is cold.
A billiard ball moves when struck with a cue.

All ice is cold.
All billiard balls struck with a cue move.

All observed crows are black.
therefore
All crows are black.


Know when you're wrong, son.



Don't question my debating when you couldn't debate your way out of a paper bag. You're both irritating and wrong.

Darth Sexy
Originally posted by Thousand
You're not getting it. I can see where you're coming from but what you're saying is not a proper logical deduction. Stop passing it off as one.
I don't exactly have to use 2 premises and a conclusion for it to be proper logical deduction, but it is.



Except yet again, you fail. Maybe you should brush up on your logic. The difference between deductive and inductive reasoning is with deductive reasoning, if the two premises are true, the conclusion MUST be true, while with inductive reasoning, if two premises are true, the conclusion COULD be true. Furthermore, the examples you've just given me have absolutely nothing to do with your previous example and claim of logical deduction, which was one of the dumbest things I've ever seen from someone attempting to sound intelligence. Maybe I should point it out for you but at the risk of wasting more of my time reading your blabbering nonsense, I'll just leave that alone and let you figure it out, seeing as how I've already explained it to you.





1. What does that say about your abilities if this is indeed truth?
2. What does debating my way out of a paper bag even mean? Or is it more nonsense you've heard somewhere, and still couldn't decipher its meaning?

Thousand
Deductive does not have to be true. Don't be foolish. Both the conditional claim and the antecedent must be true for the consequent to be concluded. If one is not with the other, the consequent is false.


Wow. I think I made it pretty clear when I said "YOU COULDN'T DEBATE YOUR WAY OUT A PAPER BAG."

I hope you don't have reading problems on top of everything else. Yikes!

I never disagreed with you about Inductive reasoning, as seen here:

Darth Sexy
Originally posted by Thousand
Deductive does not have to be true. Don't be foolish. Both the conditional claim and the antecedent must be true for the consequent to be concluded. If one is not with the other, the consequent is false.


Wow. I think I made it pretty clear when I said "YOU COULDN'T DEBATE YOUR WAY OUT A PAPER BAG."

I hope you don't have reading problems on top of everything else. Yikes!

Wow.. Unbelievable. I should tell Rex that there should be an IQ test before one can join this forum (you would fail obviously).
In deductive reasoning, if both premises are true, the conclusion HAS to be true. What don't you understand about that? Are you daft? Incapable of understanding simple concepts? So one more time for the reading or intellectual impaired:
Deductive Reasoning: If two premises are true, conclusion must be true or the argument is invalid
Inductive Reasoning: If two premises are true, the conclusion COULD be true. YOu understand? One is black and white while the second one has room for a grey area? I don't know why I have to spell this out for you.

Furthermore, your example on "logical deduction", wasn't "logical", nor was it "deduction" in any way. You completely missed the point by confusing your second premise with the conclusion. Stop embarassing yourself with these posts. Pseudointellectuals don't belong here.

Thousand
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Wow.. Unbelievable. I should tell Rex that there should be an IQ test before one can join this forum (you would fail obviously).
In deductive reasoning, if both premises are true, the conclusion HAS to be true. What don't you understand about that? Are you daft? Incapable of understanding simple concepts?

That's exactly my point. Both of what you said was dependant on possibility. This is why it wasn't a deduction. Hell, you said it yourself to contain possibility and that it wasn't 100% true. Listen carefully now, I'm going to say this ONCE:

This is why what you said was not a logical deduction because it wasn't 100% true. It was inductive logic.

As I said previously, patronizing me won't strengthen your argument.



If Pseudo intellectuals do not belong here, why are you posting?

Yes, I admit that was an accident. I meant to have them the other way around. That was a fallacy on my part and I apologize ...

BUT this does not change that what you said simply was NOT a logical deduction.

Darth Sexy
Assertion, deduction, whatever. My mistake on that part, I didn't properly introduce the premises nor conclusion so its hearsay.

Thousand
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Assertion, deduction, whatever. My mistake on that part, I didn't properly introduce the premises nor conclusion so its hearsay.

Alright then. I've got to jet. My friend has arrived.

Darth Sexy
My apologies. I wasn't even reading what I myself wrote.

Thousand
Eh, don't worry about it. I did the same thing.

tulakhordpwns
laughing out loud

ThoraxeRMG
What the..

Illustrious
Originally posted by kamhal
Actually you did no less then the fallacy of the modus ponens...

There's no such thing as a "fallacy of modus ponens."

Rather, there are only instances where modus ponens can't be applied. Modus ponens can only be applied in the absolute, i.e. with the quantifier "all."

Janus Marius
zOMG! Illustrious!

Mizukage Yoda
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2_4r6GjgWDI this neva gts old I don care how Non canon it is. But Seriously I say Nihilus just because of his whole killer of worlds thing. Only one who sands a chance is palpy with Force Storm

-Blasmaster-
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Sadly it is. Revan pillaged the underground cities while NIhilus gained the technique while on the surface, for a shorter time. It is LOGICALLY possible and probable that Revan knew this technique because of this. Not to mention POD and his holocron. That IS logical deduction.

Revan may have known of it, but he sure as hell wouldnt have been able to use it even if he's life depended on it. Kreia explicitly stated that that particular Force-Drain Technique of Nihilus is not something that can be learned, rather one must experience it first hand. And I dont recall Revan personally going through a kind of tragedy so severe as what Nihilus experienced in Malachor V in the Mandalorian Wars, that wouldve allowed him to use it, much less do it on the same magnitude as Nihilus did.

Darth Sexy
I don't recall anything about having to experience to learn it but Revan wasn't on Malachor V when the mass shield generator was released, Nihilus was.

-Blasmaster-
She did say it. When you(as the Exile) ask her about Nihilus. As for the Malachor issue, I was merely referencing it to point out how Nihilus acquired that technique which was due to the horrors he experienced in Malachor(i.e releasing the Mass Shadow generator for the first time) and how I dont recall Revan experiencing something of that kind throughout his lifetime, that wouldve allowed him to use that drain ability as well.

Violent2Dope
*Raises hand*I would only like to point out it's almost impossible for Revan to have learned the technique on Malachor, as by Kreia's own words it is something which cannot be taught, but must be experienced firsthand(or something like that, I'll look for the quote).

kamhal
I would also like to point out that this technique seems to rely on force bonds. Basicly nihilus creates a force bond with the target and suck his life out. Now, i don't want to disapoint anyone but it seems Revan knew a lot about force bonds. Mical says Revan was the one who most studied such subject("It was rumored that Revan studied Force Bonding deeply during his many apprenticeships before leaving for the Mandalorian Wars."-Wookipedia), kreia implies that Revan used force bonds to turn all Republic's soldiers to his own soldiers and i think HK-47 even said that Revan said that the Exile's ability to easily create force bonds would be his doom (not sure what he mean by this though). So, if Revan knew so much about force bonds, he may have been able to counter Nihilus' technique, and maybe that's why he was the Dark Lord and Nihilus stayed in Malachor after the end of the Mandalorian Wars...

tulakhordpwns
But like the exile, he made force bonds easily, which would make him easier to use the technique on. You might be right but there is no proof for that.

kamhal
That's the problem with Nihilus. His abilities don't exactly seem ones from a sith but more like a semi-god or something... I always find it literally a crap that he killed hundreds of jedis and the miralukas with 1 simple attack...

tulakhordpwns
it is pretty lame

Manslayer
Well sidious also has this technique. Nihilus uses some force sever technique which will cause you to die and when you die he feeds on the death it causes

Darth Hord
Originally posted by -Blasmaster-
And I dont recall Revan personally going through a kind of tragedy so severe as what Nihilus experienced in Malachor V

If memory serves me (like i'm positive it does) Revan almost died from the dark energy on malachor v by merely walking on the planet's surface.

-Blasmaster-
Originally posted by kamhal
he may have been able to counter Nihilus' technique

I very much doubt that, Kreia also says that it is a technique to which there is no defense. The only way for someone to resist or counter it, is for him/her to be like Nihilus himself... A wound in the Force. Exile is a wound in the Force that's why Nihilus wasnt able to suck her dry. Revan, unfortunately, is not.

Originally posted by Darth Hord
If memory serves me (like i'm positive it does) Revan almost died from the dark energy on malachor v by merely walking on the planet's surface.

Notice I said "something of that kind"? What you described is completely different. For Revan to use it, he must experience how it is like to be severed completely from the Force and his own life, just like how Nihilus experienced all this things when the Mass Shadow Generator was activated.

Darth Hord
Originally posted by -Blasmaster-
Notice I said "something of that kind"? What you described is completely different. For Revan to use it, he must experience how it is like to be severed completely from the Force and his own life, just like how Nihilus experienced all this things when the Mass Shadow Generator was activated.

Well both were almost killed while at malachor v by a powerful force the darkside energies of an entire planet and the mass shadow generator respectively. Anyway it is more of an opinion question so there is really no point in arguing I thought you said more on the lines of a near death experience. My B there.

Manslayer
Originally posted by -Blasmaster-
I very much doubt that, Kreia also says that it is a technique to which there is no defense. The only way for someone to resist or counter it, is for him/her to be like Nihilus himself... A wound in the Force. Exile is a wound in the Force that's why Nihilus wasnt able to suck her dry. Revan, unfortunately, is not.


You can counter nihilus technique with the fallanasi looping technique which some of the SW powerhouses have. Revan does not have that however

Light_Sith
Originally posted by Nikkolas
Nihilus canonically killed an entire world with just a word.

What the hell did he say?

Darth Sexy
He didn't. Nikkolas has a habit of taking everything too literally. There's absolutely no proof of any technique involving the use of a word in the death of a planet, and if Nihilus did kill by speaking, everyone around him would be dead, which they aren't.

Swirly Girl
This thread is like watching two, ugly and deformed babies tearing each other apart.

Darth Sexy
Otherwise known as humor..

Violent2Dope
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
He didn't. Nikkolas has a habit of taking everything too literally. There's absolutely no proof of any technique involving the use of a word in the death of a planet, and if Nihilus did kill by speaking, everyone around him would be dead, which they aren't. Why is it so hard to believe that he has control over the technique? And he does use Force Killer to a small degree by being in his presence and speaking, but he needs to want to use the whole move.

Darth Sexy
Originally posted by Violent2Dope
Why is it so hard to believe that he has control over the technique? And he does use Force Killer to a small degree by being in his presence and speaking, but he needs to want to use the whole move.

Because it's not as much of a technique as it is Nihilus, and what he is. It's instinctual and pretty much automatic. So we don't have much to go on in terms of his control. Also, your argument is very weak because youre assuming since Nihilus has an effect on property X, he will automatically have an effect on property Y.

Violent2Dope
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Because it's not as much of a technique as it is Nihilus, and what he is. It's instinctual and pretty much automatic. So we don't have much to go on in terms of his control. Also, your argument is very weak because youre assuming since Nihilus has an effect on property X, he will automatically have an effect on property Y. He can control it, as shown by the fact he has drained whole worlds and was able to focus it on the Exile(tho he failed). Fact is, many sources say he spoke when he Force Killed Katar, Visas knew it, and she was miles away when he did it.

Darth Sexy
Originally posted by Violent2Dope
He can control it, as shown by the fact he has drained whole worlds and was able to focus it on the Exile(tho he failed). Fact is, many sources say he spoke when he Force Killed Katar, Visas knew it, and she was miles away when he did it.

No, he drained A world instinctively. Whether it's being a wound or whatever. This technique derived from the ancient sith but it can't be taught, so he learned it through instincts, so feeds on the force to satiate his hunger. The whole speaking a word is nonsense..

Manslayer
Wait, Darth sexy but does sidious have the same exact technique as nihilus?

Darth Sexy
No it's not anywhere near the same. It's a force drain technique that drains the entire population of Byss over time. It is more controlled.

Darth Hord
Doesn't traya (or visas maybe?) make a statement that his hunger controls him almost as much he to it?

Nikkolas
http://www.swtimeline.ru/comics/Tales_Volume_6/Tales_Volume_6_191.jpg

Ask the people on Katarr.

Oh wait...you can't. Oh well. smile

Darth Sexy
And yet again, if everything died when Nihilus spoke, then everyone around him would be dead, so it's not the case. There's no technique that allows you to destroy worlds with a word, especially not an instinctual one. It's called an exaggeration.

Violent2Dope
Canon source>>>>>>>You. He can CONTROL it, if he couldn't he wouldn't be able to focus it on one person, like the Exile. He does do Force Kill to a small extent while speaking, hell you're affected just by being in his presence. More than once has it been stated that it takes Nihilus' speaking to do Force Kill, do you think Visas just made it up when she said he spoke? She even said something along the lines of,"My people never saw him, but they heard him speak, and when he did, my people died" or sumthin like that, I'll have to find the quote. I'm going to make an educated guess that when doing Force Kill, he speaks and uses his words to leave a large or small echo in the Force that kills anything touched by it, otherwise no one on Katar would have heard him.

Darth Sexy
Originally posted by Violent2Dope
Canon source>>>>>>>You. He can CONTROL it, if he couldn't he wouldn't be able to focus it on one person, like the Exile. He does do Force Kill to a small extent while speaking, hell you're affected just by being in his presence. More than once has it been stated that it takes Nihilus' speaking to do Force Kill, do you think Visas just made it up when she said he spoke? She even said something along the lines of,"My people never saw him, but they heard him speak, and when he did, my people died" or sumthin like that, I'll have to find the quote. I'm going to make an educated guess that when doing Force Kill, he speaks and uses his words to leave a large or small echo in the Force that kills anything touched by it, otherwise no one on Katar would have heard him.

Except there is no canon source stating that Nihilus can control it. There's also no canon source that states he spoke a word to kill a planet, nor that everytime he speaks worlds die. That's visas and that's contradictory to CANON materials, aka storyline.. Sorry

Allankles
Same old saxy. How was your summer? I don't think Nihilus' speech could kill per se, it's simply that in the instance he chose to destroy Katarr he seems to have used telepathic communication (of some kind) to focus his power.

Nihilus didn't fully control his hunger but he was able to focus it at will, as he did with the Exile and apparently with Katarr, as Visas seems to suggest he's "speaking" had something to do with the death of her people and planet.

Wha

Violent2Dope
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Except there is no canon source stating that Nihilus can control it. There's also no canon source that states he spoke a word to kill a planet, nor that everytime he speaks worlds die. That's visas and that's contradictory to CANON materials, aka storyline.. Sorry Yes, he can control it, he was able to focus it onto the Exile and only the Exile before the fight. It's stated by Visas in game that he spoke to kill Katar, and I never said everytime he speas worlds die, he is able to control the move. Nik also posted a little part of a short comic showing how Nihilus Force Killed Katar, and it even says he spoke to do it there.

-Blasmaster-
I dont know. When Visas said that Nihilus killed Katarr with a word I always thought it to be hyperbole or something.

Newayz Nik, where did you get that scan, mate. smile

Nikkolas
The site www.swtimeline.ru

Actually, i found the exact scan and issue from a link on here. The user formerly known as Kadesh/ESB Vader linked to it in an older thread.

http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=172&page=191

Can read the full comic that way.

Janus Marius
Damn, they changed the site and I can't read Russian.

Anyone else find it amusing that the Russian website showing SW comic scans is powered by the US navy?

Darth Sexy
I'm russian, wtf is it that you need. Amusing? No.. Ironic? yes

Violent2Dope
In that comic was the quote I was talking bout,"My people never saw his face when they struck-but they heard his VOICE". All evidence points to Nihilus speaking to use Force Killer

-Blasmaster-
Originally posted by Nikkolas
Actually, i found the exact scan and issue from a link on here. The user formerly known as Kadesh/ESB Vader linked to it in an older thread.

Can read the full comic that way.

Ah tnx man! Been looking all over the net for SW Comics to read online.

Darth Hord
Nikkolas are u able to get to the other comics in Swtimeline aswell? im having difficulties right now.

Nikkolas
Which comics are you trying to get to exactly? The site is rather hard to navigate.

Darth Hord
Originally posted by Nikkolas
Which comics are you trying to get to exactly? The site is rather hard to navigate.
The tales of the jedi the sith war. Even with the language the way it was,I was able to navigate it but since the new change i cant.

Manslayer
Originally posted by Nikkolas
The site www.swtimeline.ru

Actually, i found the exact scan and issue from a link on here. The user formerly known as Kadesh/ESB Vader linked to it in an older thread.

http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=172&page=191

Can read the full comic that way. Its manslayer now ty

Shin_Nikkolas
Hm. i can't find it either.

The site is really gay nowadays. Sorry, Hord.

Darth Hord
Originally posted by Shin_Nikkolas
Hm. i can't find it either.

The site is really gay nowadays. Sorry, Hord.

no problem i probably just look through old threads for it thanx anyway.

-Blasmaster-
Originally posted by Darth Hord
no problem i probably just look through old threads for it thanx anyway.

I found it, mate. But I cant post the link since I have to be more "well known" around these parts first. Ill just instruct you where to go(although you would have to bare with me if I sometimes dont make sense since English is not my first language):

Anyway, in the homepage of the site you can basically see two "boxes" of links on the left side of the site. Go to the bottom one and click the second link from the top. This will take you to some of the SW comics(including the Tales of the Jedi). Now, the TOTJ series are basically the ones at the top of that list. Click on one of that links and it will show you either a Summary or a Review of it. If you scroll down a little bit, you'll see 3 links that direct you the pages itself. The top link is the ones you can read online, the 2 links below is if you want to download it.

Comprende? If your still having trouble let me know. Until then, Id like to go back to my reading and educate myself in everything SW.smile

Darth Hord
thanx bro now i know to navigate the site again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Darth_Glentract
Originally posted by Shin_Nikkolas
Nihilus, the man who kills all things in his presence and who will destroy the galaxy, against a guy who never even showed 1/3 of his foe's power.

Just curious, where did you get your "1/3" figure from?

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Just curious, where did you get your "1/3" figure from?
He seems to underestimate Revan a lot.

As a Dark Lord:

He seems to forget that as a DLOTS, Revan have accomplished more then Nihilus.

- Revan managed to create a vast Sith Empire and effectively manage it and this is one of the biggest feats that a Sith Lord can accomplish.

- Revan also managed to successfully control the mighty Star Forge (which itself is like a Giant Leech) and that too with limited contact.

- Revan also learned several devastating Sith techniques during his visits to Malachor and Korriban. Darth Bane already have pointed this out.

- Revan was strong in the Force and a skilled warrior and knew how to deal with different kinds of threats.

- His knowledge and wisdom was enough to impress a great Sith Lord aka Darth Bane and through his teachings, Darth Bane got the inspiration of the Rule of Two. Hence Revan's legacy as a DLOTS played a vital role in the up-lifting of the Sith once again in the galaxy after so many years.

As a Jedi:

- As a Jedi, Revan managed to destroy the very same Empire that he created to rule the galaxy. His amazing performance on the Star Forge is what actually turned the tide in the Jedi Civil War or else the Republic was doomed. Hence he was declared to be a prodigy by a famous Jedi Master of his age.

- Kriea herself praised Revan's skill and power and we already know that what she said about him.

- Most of the high-profile people who have met Revan, have praised his skill and power, including a famous ancient DLOTS Ajunta Pall.

- Additionally Revan have defeated and killed several high-profile people in his life who have caused great troubles in the galaxy. This alone shows that how skilled he was.

- He was also a tactical genius of his age. He could accomplish through combination of his very intelligent mind and the Force, the tasks that were impossible to accomplish otherwise. It was mainly due to his actions that the Republic managed to defeat the Mandalorians in the war. Canderous made this very clear.

So, Shin_Nikkolas! It is always wise to think twice before jumping on a conclusion.

Regarding Revan vs Nihilus fight:

In case of fight against Nihilus, Revan needs to hit first and ask question later. He knows some techniques that will help him to decimate Nihilus early on. Though similar is the case of Nihilus because he also knows a technique that can help him to defeat Revan, if he launches the first attack.

So this is more like a 50/50 win situation for both people mentioned here.

Allankles
As far as we know Revan has no instant-kill techniques that could decimate Nihilus in a heart beat, if anything force techniques aren't the best way to handle Nihilus, after all he's basically a force leeching entity.

The only known combat effective technique Revan has used was a force storm he used on a few non-force sensitive Rakata, certainly not potent enough, by this example, to instant-kill a powerful force user like Nihilus. The rest of his known force techniques are all rituals e.g. the thought bomb: obviously not combat effective.

The rest of what you listed are classified under achievements and are not a direct indication of dueling prowess. The happenings of the star forge outside of dueling Bastila and Malak are non-canon. Think about it for a second; Revan can have two party members, use grenades etc etc.

Besides it wouldn't be feasible to merely fight your way through possibly hundreds of Jedi, even if they are weak.

Nihilus is certainly the favourite in this duel.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Allankles
As far as we know Revan has no instant-kill techniques that could decimate Nihilus in a heart beat, if anything force techniques aren't the best way to handle Nihilus, after all he's basically a force leeching entity.
He does have them. One such is the "Force Lightning Storm." If Nihilus gets caught in the FLS, he will be decimated. Not only he but most people will get decimated by a FLS. Force Storms are one of the deadliest Dark Side powers ever known.

Originally posted by Allankles
The only known combat effective technique Revan has used was a force storm he used on a few non-force sensitive Rakata, certainly not potent enough, by this example, to instant-kill a powerful force user like Nihilus.
You are using just one example.

Darth Bane also used an FLS to destroy a huge chunk of land. It is true that he did this along with some other people but they combined their power to form a huge FLS, which spread with great intensity causing massive devastation. Darth Sexy can elaborate more on this.

Revan was a master practitioner of Force Lightning and also mastered FLS.

Remember that Sidious managed to over-power Yoda in ROTS with just his Force Lightning, which was no where equal in intensity to an FLS. An FLS is far more dangerous.

Now Nihilus cannot defend against an FLS.

Originally posted by Allankles
The rest of his known force techniques are all rituals e.g. the thought bomb: obviously not combat effective.
Many techniques are unknown. This is the problem.

Drew K needs to elaborate more on Revan's knowledge.

Originally posted by Allankles
The rest of what you listed are classified under achievements and are not a direct indication of dueling prowess.
And you forgot that he was engaged in a war in which confrontations are bound to take place.

He was not sitting in a comfortable chair drinking martini during the Mandalorian Wars.

Originally posted by Allankles
The happenings of the star forge outside of dueling Bastila and Malak are non-canon. Think about it for a second; Revan can have two party members, use grenades etc etc.
Yes! But two party members themselves stood no chance in the Star Forge. Most of the work was still done by Revan. It is time to acknowledge this fact and move on.

Originally posted by Allankles
Besides it wouldn't be feasible to merely fight your way through possibly hundreds of Jedi, even if they are weak.
Very powerful people can do amazing feats, when they have strong will and determination. You seem to forget this.

Originally posted by Allankles
Nihilus is certainly the favourite in this duel.
Your favourite is the more correct word.

Lightsnake
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
He does have them. One such is the "Force Lightning Storm." If Nihilus gets caught in the FLS, he will be decimated. Not only he but most people will get decimated by a FLS. Force Storms are one of the deadliest Dark Side powers ever known.
Erm, Legend? That's a gameplay term for a powerful force lightning...
Force storms are a different anima;


He overpowered Yoda with his lightning? He caught him off guard with it once. Palpatine's full out lightning is enough to drop 100 people dead-check that...it's not even close to full power. He's able to reduce fully grown humans to charred bones.

quite possibly not


It'd require giving Revan a personality with it


Quite true: He did kill Mandalore


Debatable at best, Legend

S_W_LeGenD

Lightsnake
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
No.

Considering the fact that FLS had also been demonstrated by Darth Bane and his companions in a combined effort (as mentioned in POD Novel), it is as much canon now as other c-canon Force powers and techniques.
That's
A. Not FLS
2. Not shown anywhere near as such in the comic itself.

I think you mean 'did block' The blast wasn't something either combatant was prepared for

Mainly because he'd fallen that far, Palpatine had time to recover and Yoda had a vision in the force that Palpatine would kill him if the fight continued

That's REALLY reaching

Yoda was playing possum there, thank you. Quit trying to downplay Yoda

Only if you're desperate to humiliate Yoda would you even list thes:
The first attack was just a minor blast from Palpatine. The second, yoda blocked until the pressure between them caused an unexpected reaction

No, it shows him demonstrating it against a larger variety of opponents

All it is is force lightning with more power behind it.
Nothing else.


And I'm calling you downright incorrect since there's no technique called FLS.


Stop making things up, thank you.


Who is less powerful than his Jedi incarnation.


Mandalore is one of the few that's known


Perhaps I should be clearer:
Sketchy at best

Gideon
...When I get back, we'll discuss this, LeGenD. That is a very unsupported and -- if I may -- very pathetic attempt to downplay Yoda.

Gideon
LeGenD, this is a deeply misleading account of the situation involving Master Yoda's attempts to handle Darth Sidious's Force lightning. I'll respectfully ask you that, if you can't debate this objectively, don't bother debating it at all. It becomes tedious and annoying when I have to come here and correct you.



Absolutely misleading and grossly incorrect. Yoda did succeed in staving away Emperor Palpatine's Force lightning -- the only thing that he failed to do was to protect himself from the ensuing explosion when the lightning coil released itself -- but one must take into account that Palpatine himself couldn't even withstand the blast, and he was the one generating it.



...And you blame him for it? He was without his lightsaber against an opponent who was his equal in Force prowess and mastery, and to top it off -- he was in the heart of enemy territory relying on defensive techniques to come close to victory. It's a no-brainer that he left, because the odds are, if he continued the duel, he would have died. Yoda is willing to die for his cause, but the cause here demanded that the Emperor must also die. That wasn't going to happen, so he made a tactical retreat; a decision that later benefited his attempts to overthrow the Empire completely.



No.

A logical assessment of the situation (detailed above) is what 'forced' him to change his mind.



Excuse me? This is a very primitive assessment of the situation, LeGenD. Master Yoda entered Palpatine's office there on the full strength of his convictions; that is to say that he went into the fight a trifle too cocky and arrogant. He was sure he was going to win. While he certainly paid the price for his arrogance with the subsequent blast of lightning, to say that Yoda -- for whatever reason -- was just overpowered and rendered unconscious would be false. He was caught off guard (though I grant you that the move itself wasn't surprising), and when he attempted to subdue the lightning -- too late -- it then overpowered him.

But that isn't to say that if Yoda had been prepared, wary of attack, he couldn't have defended himself. Logic points to the fact that he would have.



This is a lie.

When the Emperor attacked Yoda with Force lightning that final time, Yoda did hold it at bay. What he did not (nor what the Emperor himself did not) defend against was the ensuing explosion when the coiled lightning released itself. There is a difference.



In the first one? Yes, but only because of pride, not lack of ability. In the second? No. There's nothing that he could have done to have changed the scenario.



Those attacks weren't storms of Force lightning. Palpatine was just powerful enough to do all that without going apeshit and turning into Captain Lightning.



Proof? And, furthermore, prove to me that a storm of Force lightning isn't just out of control Force lightning and not a separate attack entirely?



Prove it.




...Who is weaker than any incarnation of Palpatine, and subsequently, Yoda himself.

nfactor1995
Darth Revan lol (yep, bumping a years old thread)

Azronger
Nihilus stomps.

samappo
Lol Gideon stomped Legend.

Beniboybling
And a decade later he remains as much a moron, amazing. laughing out loud

samappo
He never bothered replying cos he got smacked xD

MythLord
Originally posted by Beniboybling
And a decade later he remains as much a moron, amazing. laughing out loud

I would kindly ask member Benyboybling not to be mean to member S_W_LeGenD. It is not member S_W_LeGenD's fault that you cannot comprehend ground realities.

Geistalt
Going to have to go with Nihilus.

Ripping the Ravager out of the heart of Malachor V still beats anything Revan's got. Even if he lacks Revan's control over it.

I would like feats that prove Revan's superiority, though.

Geistalt
"It" referring to the Force.

SunRazer
Originally posted by Azronger
Nihilus stomps.

Based on what? I probably won't have time to reply to any comprehensive response on your part, but I will say that a lot of Nihilus' feats (including all of his big ones) are down to circumstances. No doubt that he's a titan of the Force even without them, but I'm not seeing the grounds for him to stomp Revan, whom I'm sure we could all agree is otherwise the superior combatant in every way.

samappo
I'm completely oblivious as to what Nihilus can actually do, even though I played the death out of KOTOR 2 as a kid.

Azronger
Originally posted by SunRazer
Based on what? I probably won't have time to reply to any comprehensive response on your part, but I will say that a lot of Nihilus' feats (including all of his big ones) are down to circumstances. No doubt that he's a titan of the Force even without them, but I'm not seeing the grounds for him to stomp Revan, whom I'm sure we could all agree is otherwise the superior combatant in every way.

Lifting a fleet and draining planets is a bit above Revan's paygrade in my opinion. And Nihilus is a capable duelist, unlike many believe.

NewGuy01
Based on?

Fated Xtasy
Originally posted by NewGuy01
Based on?

Getting shat on by the Exile and her friends? Duh Sas. Get your shit together bro

Azronger
Originally posted by NewGuy01
Based on?

A far stronger iteration of him got creamed by a sub-planetary Force user.

Azronger
Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
Getting shat on by the Exile and her friends? Duh Sas. Get your shit together bro

He didn't get shat on. Nowhere is that implied. He was fending off the Exile and Visas simulatenously while deflecting blaster fire from Mandalore. Visas was even about to give up due to how powerful Nihilus was, and only survived with the Exile's encouragement.

It was a close fight in anything, and Nihilus was hardly in peak condition.

Azronger
-

Deronn_solo
Novel Vitiate was obviously made it to be a bigger threat than Nihilus throughout the entire book.
We can cry about how Drew did his and that all we want, but it's canon.

Azronger
Based on?

Deronn_solo
The fact a prophecy was created by the Force itself to counteract the darkness he embodied? The fact Nihilus and Co. we're simply portrayed as rogue Jedi, compared to a pure agent of the dark side in the novel?

I mean, read the book and it would become obvious - the hero of KotOR II was treated like trash by someone Vitiate could one-shot.

Beniboybling
Prophecy? You got the wrong Sith Lord there pally. And lel at Nihilus just being a rogue Jedi.

Deronn_solo
Yeah, the HoT was a thousand years old prophecy - Revan predicted it, the Force strives for balance, and an agent of light will rise up to counteract Vitiate's darkness, with the The Wrath later seeing the vision to confirm - and, you know, it actually coming phucking true in the end with Vitiate "dying" to 'Tython on Kaas.


Whether Nihilus is, or isn't, is not be point. The point is, Vitiate, is clearly painted as a bigger threat than Nihilus ever was in the one source that extensively links them both.

Beniboybling
Visions of the future =/= prophecy, lal.

Traya foresaw that Windu would kill Jango, the last Mandalorian. Dat prophesised one.

And not really, Nihilus was depicted as an abomination, and a planet eater with unfathomable power, who, if not stopped, would bring about the end of the entire galaxy. erm

Deronn_solo
No, it was directly stated as a prophocey in the actual source material? Predicted by multiple characters to boot? HoT rose, as a champion of light, to counteract Vitiate, the agent of darkness - because, as stated by the omniscient narrator, and later Revan in the book, the Force strives for balance. Sounds like a prophocey to me.

Yeah, but that isn't how he was painted whe compared to Vitiate in the book - that's the point. erm

Beniboybling
Not really, more like a thing that happened. Preordained yeah, but prophecy is overselling it. Two people had this vision. It's not as if it was any kind of legend handed down through generations, or something that was even predicted before Vitiate's rise.

Well it's a shit point then kek, how Nihilus is portrayed in the book does nothing to alter his portrayal in the game. You've taken a very limited point of view that does not even mention him by name, and decided this is now all there is to him. That is stupid.

NewGuy01
Originally posted by Azronger
A far stronger iteration of him got creamed by a sub-planetary Force user.

I was talking about Nihilus' supposed competence with a lightsaber, numbskull. Also, Vitiate is clearly the greater threat.

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