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Using nonlethal training sabers exactly the same as their existing blades save for their inability to cut, the following have been lumped into a tournament by some cynical KMC punk:

Match 1: Anakin Skywalker (RotS) versus Obi-Wan Kenobi (RotS)

Match 2: Exar Kun versus Malak (Exar Kun at his peak; Malak likewise)

Match 3: Count Dooku versus Mace Windu (Both incarnations as of RotS)

Match 4: Darth Maul versus Asajj Ventress and Sora Bolq (Maul as of TPM, obviously; Asajj as of Obsession; Sora at his peak, whatever that was.)

Force powers allowed (Because any match not including Force powers is really, really stupid). The conditions of victory are a single strike with the lightsaber. It does not have to be fatal.

The settings are completely even; the Geonosis arena. No interference allowed; it's assumed each individual is rested. All incarnations are shown as noted above. Plot devices, deus ex machina, and "zomfg teh professie!!!11" do not cut it as valid reasons. If you do give reasons, please make them complete reasons. "Anakin wins. 'Nuff said" is a complete waste of time.

Based on results, Round Two may include the victors... when this round is concluded.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
Using nonlethal training sabers exactly the same as their existing blades save for their inability to cut, the following have been lumped into a tournament by some cynical KMC punk:

Match 1: Anakin Skywalker (RotS) versus Obi-Wan Kenobi (RotS)
Anakin wins this. For reason we already know, Obiwan won the fight on Mustafar by having the high ground. Judging from the skill of both combatants, it is unlikely either one will get in a single lightsaber hit anytime soon. However, with Anakin's force reserves, he should be able to tire Obiwan out and land a blow eventually.


Interesting match. Malak was never considered a saber prodigy while Kun was. Kun's unique saber and style should be able to confuse Malak. Even if it is star forge Malak, Kun's raw power, force abilities, and saber prowess should be able to get a landing blow.


I think this one is easier than most people think. I firmly believe (and can support) the fact that Mace Windu, in terms of lightsaber combat, is the most dangerous and effective combatant against a dark sider (as shown by Palpatine). Without using an A>B>C argument, Mace's Vaapad and shatterpoint should give him a landing blow.


Assaj Ventress was good enough to put Obiwan on her ass and compete with Anakin. IF you add in Sora Bulq, the duo will be too much for Maul to handle.

Janus Marius, you opened a can of worms just now.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
Match 1: Anakin Skywalker (RotS) versus Obi-Wan Kenobi (RotS)

I know I'm deep in the minority, but I think Obi-wan takes this. Anakin has more raw power, but he has less control over that power and less experience. We saw in ep3 when Obi-wan and Anakin threw Force Pushes at eachother that they were EQUAL. Also note that Anakin had the opportunity to utilize just as many environmental factors as Obi-wan, yet didn't. I don't believe Anakin was looking for a fair fight; if he had seen the opportunity he would have taken it. Plus, Obi-wan and Yoda had a very good idea of how powerful Anakin was. Yoda would not have sent Obi-wan to fight Anakin if he did not believe Obi-wan capable of winning. Yoda was right.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
Match 2: Exar Kun versus Malak (Exar Kun at his peak; Malak likewise)

Exar by a longshot. It's hard to prove much relating to Exar, but the bottom line is that Malak never has quite done anything to put him in the same tier as Exar. Killing an entire race with the Force, shaking the ground beneath his feet just by walking, and defeating his Jedi Master (who logically was one of the better ones) BEFORE he went on Force Steroids (amulets and Ancient teachings) gives him my vote.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
Match 3: Count Dooku versus Mace Windu (Both incarnations as of RotS)

Well, this one is tough. Yes, Mace does have Shatterpoint, but that only helps him against Darkside FORCE POWERS. Sidious was unable to overwhelm Mace with his lightning because of this. However, I don't believe it gives him any advantage over a Darksider than it would over a lightsider during the actual saber combat. Dooku obviously won't be able to take Mace with the Force because of Shatterpoint and should be able to shrug off anything Mace can throw at him aswell. I do think that a lightsaber fight could go either way, with it falling to Mace 6/10 times.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
Match 4: Darth Maul versus Asajj Ventress and Sora Bolq (Maul as of TPM, obviously; Asajj as of Obsession; Sora at his peak, whatever that was.)

Easily goes to the duo. Maul's a beast, but Asajj alone would give him a tough time. With Sora it's overkill.

Exar killed an entire race?

Originally posted by BlaxicanHydra
Exar killed an entire race?

He killed the remaining massassi (sp) and drained them so he can seperate his spirit from his body when the republic was about to attack yavin 4 and he knew that the orbiting fleet would definitely kill him otherwise.

Oh right..

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
I know I'm deep in the minority, but I think Obi-wan takes this. Anakin has more raw power, but he has less control over that power and less experience. We saw in ep3 when Obi-wan and Anakin threw Force Pushes at eachother that they were EQUAL. Also note that Anakin had the opportunity to utilize just as many environmental factors as Obi-wan, yet didn't. I don't believe Anakin was looking for a fair fight; if he had seen the opportunity he would have taken it. Plus, Obi-wan and Yoda had a very good idea of how powerful Anakin was. Yoda would not have sent Obi-wan to fight Anakin if he did not believe Obi-wan capable of winning. Yoda was right.
The problem with this is, Obiwan was getting tired while Anakin kept coming harder and harder. Obiwan knew he would lose unless he got the higher ground, so in a long drawn out battle on even ground, Anakin will eventually get in 1 blow.




By a longshot? Hardly. He will win with much difficulty. Notice how Malak was a force powerhouse as well and none of Exar Kun's sith magic is relevant to a "first blood" saber bout.




Except that Vaapad and shatterpoint are MORE for saber fighting than force powers. I'll say it again, MAce is the most efficient opponent of a darksider when sabers are involved. He will eventually find Dooku's shatterpoint.

I am SO sick of this Exar fanboyism:
1. He killed a race that WILLINGLY GAVE UP THEIR LIVES using an obelisk that wasn't his. Wow. Great feat
2. He 'shook the ground when he walked?' Prove the **** up. Note: Hyperbole from KOTOR will be laughed at.
3. Quit this *Vodo was such a great Jedi Master* Bullshit. He's got nothing backing him up besides being surprised by his Padawan at one point-got that, Glentract? SURPRISED by him. As in-it wasn't anything resembling the legit victory later on.

Really, this is just plain sickening sometimes.



Or because Palpatine was holding back with the lightning part?



Asajj is unable to touch the upper tiers of the Jedi. How would she be able to compete with someone like Maul, who even Battlemasters realize they can't take on?

Or maybe because Mace was focusing said lightning on to his Lightsaber via the force? Jedi seem to be able to do that..

shatterpoint allows Mace to sometimes find the enemies weakness
vaapad allows mace to counter force powers

Lightsnake please prove MAce was holding back. As I recall, he only started faking when he was saying "I'm weak", when his initial lightning attempt failed. There is nothing that would have us assume he faked his lightning.

Please prove Mace was holding back? We're a bit confused there, aren't we?

Just read the novelization. Or the visual Guide. Or listen to Lucas's commentary: Palpatine is 'exaggerrating his weakness, and according to the Visual Guide, he 'uses Anakin as a weapon'....Anakin later doubts Palpatine's performance there was genuine and in the novelization, Palpatine's barrage stops just before Mace's body gives out

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Please prove Mace was holding back? We're a bit confused there, aren't we?

Just read the novelization. Or the visual Guide. Or listen to Lucas's commentary: Palpatine is 'exaggerrating his weakness, and according to the Visual Guide, he 'uses Anakin as a weapon'....Anakin later doubts Palpatine's performance there was genuine and in the novelization, Palpatine's barrage stops just before Mace's body gives out

It was a typo lightsnake, you hardly need to exude your psueodintellectualism here. I saw the movie..Sidious was going all out. Then Anakin started talking to Mace, and Sidious started the "I'm too weak" speech, where he was obviously faking. If you are asserting that Sidious was faking with his lightning, then you're inadvertedly making the conclusion that Sidious basically threw the fight.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
The problem with this is, Obiwan was getting tired while Anakin kept coming harder and harder. Obiwan knew he would lose unless he got the higher ground, so in a long drawn out battle on even ground, Anakin will eventually get in 1 blow.

It seems to me that you're speculating. What proof can you offer that Obi-wan was any more tired than Anakin other than you personal view on the fight?

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
By a longshot? Hardly. He will win with much difficulty. Notice how Malak was a force powerhouse as well and none of Exar Kun's sith magic is relevant to a "first blood" saber bout.

Since when has Malak been a Force powerhouse? He was the second strongest Sith of his time, but Exar is the strongest Sith of his time by a large amount. And if Exar knocks Malak out with the Force and then taps his saber on Malak's limp body he wins all the same.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Except that Vaapad and shatterpoint are MORE for saber fighting than force powers. I'll say it again, MAce is the most efficient opponent of a darksider when sabers are involved. He will eventually find Dooku's shatterpoint.

Any proof for you claim that Vapaad and Shatterpoint's effectiveness against the Darkside is geared more for lightsaber combat than Force battles.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
I am SO sick of this Exar fanboyism:
1. He killed a race that WILLINGLY GAVE UP THEIR LIVES using an obelisk that wasn't his. Wow. Great feat

So you admit that he killed a race. Can you prove that they willingly did so? And if you do, can you prove what difference that would make?

BTW, you're " I am SO sick..." sounds like a PMSing teenage girl. Real annoying.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
2. He 'shook the ground when he walked?' Prove the **** up. Note: Hyperbole from KOTOR will be laughed at.

I believe the EGtC said it. I can't find it anywhere though, so give me a bit to find it.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
3. Quit this *Vodo was such a great Jedi Master* Bullshit. He's got nothing backing him up besides being surprised by his Padawan at one point-got that, Glentract? SURPRISED by him. As in-it wasn't anything resembling the legit victory later on.

Really, this is just plain sickening sometimes.

If Vodo was just an average Jedi why was he the one who presided over Ulic's trial? Why was he the only one in the Senate Exar apparently felt worthy to join him when there were other Jedi present? Can you explain that?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Or because Palpatine was holding back with the lightning part?

I believe Darth Sexy already addressed this.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Asajj is unable to touch the upper tiers of the Jedi. How would she be able to compete with someone like Maul, who even Battlemasters realize they can't take on?

Unable to tough the upper tiers? BS. She nearly killed Anakin on two different occasions. She also managed to fight both Obi-wan and Anakin together at one point and survive long enough to get shot by one of her own troops. Even after this she still attempted to fight Obi-wan. So unless you plan to claim that Maul is far above Anakin or Obi-wan you have to admit that Asajj would give him a hard time, especially since she is one of the only other people of that time skilled in the art of the saberstaff, which could throw Maul off. Sora's no slouch either, but I think you already know that.

He's one of the ONLY TWO Sith of his time and in one battle, ties with the other one.
Malak, at least, is the strongest of a large group



Common sense?



"The Massassi would willingly lay down their lives for me."
Remember that line from Sadow? Theyr'e CONDITIONED to obey the Dark Lord. Never mind that, but the Visual Guide and character guides state that the Massassi willingly gave their lives, souls and children to Exar Kun and his ambitions. Good lord, Glentract, cut the fanboyism short

Yes: Exar used an obelisk designed for the purpose of taking their lives.
None of his own power was used
Know what else is annoying? your lack of logic


False. There's nothing on the subject, especially as we SAW Exar walking and the ground was fine


The Jedi weren't 'presiding' over anything, Glentract. they were there as observers. Also, Vodo was there because he arrived on Coruscant to coincide with the time.

Give me a break. Vodo has absolutely no proof to his 'high tier' strength

Because, and get this: VODO IS HIS OLD MASTER. He wants Vodo to join him because he WANTS TO REBUILD THE SITH and the other Jedi consist of Sylvar, Cay Qel-Droma and Nomi Sunride.r Only one of which is worth a damn. And if Vodo turns to the Dark Side, the others would likely follow or die.

Seriously, your 'logic' is sort of sad here



His points were dealt with


And ran away from Mace on another, knowing he'd kill her.


Probably because neither of the two were trying to KILL her at that point...notice how Obi-wan is trying to redeem her throughout all of it?

who managed to defend himself adequately against her on several accounts
Why? Anakin is able to give Dooku a hard time, who trumps Asajj...

Sora is of no consequence to Maul, either. Maul's abilities made someone like Anoon Bondara realize he wasn't any match for him and unless you want to tell me Sora is above Anoon...

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Malak was never considered a saber prodigy while Kun was.
Malak was actually intended to be a elite swordsman.

Here is an excerpt from official KOTOR website: "Though only a young man, his skill in battle and prowess with the lightsaber had already earned him renown within the Order."

Unfortunately the official KOTOR website has been taken down.

KOTOR Author "Drew K" also stated that Malak was an elite swordsman. His Saber Form involves elements of Juyo.

Then according to the "Champions of the Force" source, Malak is termed as a "hard hitter."

Originally posted by tulakhordpwns
shatterpoint allows Mace to sometimes find the enemies weakness
vaapad allows mace to counter force powers

Bingo.

Originally posted by Gideon
Bingo. Was his name-o.

My points have been dealt with lightsnake? Please provide proof for your assertion. I'm stating that Sidious started faking when his initial lightning blast failed. Not only have we been over this and it's MORE than logically deduced, but this has also been generally accepted.

Actually, I believe George Lucas himself has said that Palpatine was not faking during the lightning portion. He was attempting to overpower Mace at that point. However, he was faking when he claimed weakness. Mace was the only weakened one at that point.

That's what I said. Thank you Steve Perry..

As someone who owns the DVD, Escape...Lucas doesn't say that.

I own the ROTS DVD as well lightsnake so please, let me know where your argument is coming from so I don't have to watch 18 hours worth of bullshit when I could be watching Lord of the Rings.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
As someone who owns the DVD, Escape...Lucas doesn't say that.

I also own the DVD, LS. Lucas says "Sidious tries to destroy Mace with his rays!" and one of the other producers said that the thought of Sidious's disfiguration was due to the "exertion" and "strain".

That random producer can say whatever he wants; if Nick Gillard doesn't rank on the canon, he sure as hell doesn't when canon sources contradict him. Unless Lucas said it, he's contradicted amply, thus making his singular opinion absolutely worthless.

And to use the full story: Lucas says the original idea for the scene *insert vague outline, including Palpatine trying to kill Mace with the Force...then Lucas details what he changed and added. Hardly convincing and definite

Ok then we take the movie for face value. Sidious going all out and being over powered. It's then quite obvious that he's faking with his "I'm too weak" speech.

No, he says that the scene always ended with Mace overpowering Palpatine and then Palpatine trying to kill Mace with his rays. You'd be arguing knee-deep in semantics to try to contend that Palpatine's "trying to kill Mace" was half-assed.

Exactly.
Thanks Steve Perry.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Exactly.
Thanks Steve Perry.

Repeatedly calling me that isn't annoying me, lol. I'd be happy to be compared with one of the greatest and most talented rock singers of all time. You ought to check out the live-version of "Mother, Father" on youtube. He kicks the shit out of every other contemporary singer.

Anyways, yeah, the script and novelization seem to support that Sidious was failing at that point. He was on his ass with Mace -- a supremely powerful Jedi Master -- towering over him trained in a lightsaber form specifically designed to negate the dark side.

However, the only one weakened after the lightning was Mace. Which is odd, since he didn't get his face melted...

Steve Perry rocks except he's not exactly a singer songwriter, which puts him firmly under Axl Rose, Richard Marx, and Prince.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Steve Perry rocks except he's not exactly a singer songwriter, which puts him firmly under Axl Rose, Richard Marx, and Prince.

...You did not just put Steve Perry (called "The Voice" by his peers, Bon Jovi and Freddie Mercury) under Axl ****ing Rose. Perry is the better singer by far.

Btw. Perry is actually a singer-songwriter. Richard Marx and Prince rock though.

he said that was when he originally wrote it.

And regardless of Palaptine's position-and really, he's well known for putting himself into danger anyways.

And how many tiems do I need to say it: the novelization is written from Mace's POV at that point and from his POV, Palpatine suddenly runs out of power just before Mace is about to. Yet, Palpatine roars back to life, gets up and displays absolutely no ill effects-in movie or novelization.

Palpatine's initial motive in the lightning? Mind telling me exactly what his plan was if he killed Mace? When so much hints to Palpatine forcing Anakin's hand through putting himself in danger to that particular spot?
Nevermind the little details with Palpatine's face...in 'Sithisis', we actually see him use alchemy to alter it

No, he says that the scene always -- original and otherwise -- like that.



What is it exactly that you're trying to dispute here? I thought you said that Palpatine was faking or making a half-assed attempt when he was trying to electrocute Mace. He didn't fake the output of energy or the intensity of it.

No one is disputing that Palpatine isn't a coward (when you think about it, he has balls) nor that he doesn't take major risks when his plans need it.



Once again, what is your point LS? No one is disputing that -- when Palpatine called off the attack -- he was weak. That is when it was clear (and reinforced by Lucas) that he was faking. He was feigning weakness. He could have kept blasting away, and in that situation, the only one losing energy was Mace. But he was throwing effort into his attempt to overpower Mace in the Force.



For the final time, you need to be more specific in exactly what it is you're arguing here. If anything, logic points to Palpatine willingly putting himself in a situation where he could die to force Anakin's hand. For that to occur, the threat on his life has to be very real. I doubt that Palpatine could have just effortlessly destroyed Mace from that position with the Force. I very doubt it. The most he could have done is held him at bay or finally defeated him after an agonizing struggle.

Originally posted by Gideon
...You did not just put Steve Perry (called "The Voice" by his peers, Bon Jovi and Freddie Mercury) under Axl ****ing Rose. Perry is the better singer by far.

Btw. Perry is actually a singer-songwriter. Richard Marx and Prince rock though.


In terms of voice, he's better than Axl yea. But I wouldn't ever compare his voice to Freddie Mercury, nor Richard Marx. However, a lot of his songs that I play on piano, were not written by him, but by Jonathan Cain, whereas Axl Rose, Prince, and Richard Marx write ALL of their lyrics AND songs. Guns N Roses 4 lyfe.

DS:



I agree that Anakin's physical power would give him an edge, but you also neglected one important fact here: nowhere did I indicate that this is Anakin enraged and full of the darkside as he was on Mustafar. I deliberately omitted it and many people are deliberately referencing it and making the assumption that Anakin is going to be balls-to-the-wall pissed and batting Obi-Wan around like a handball. Darth Vader being enraged with the darkside and hating Obi-Wan to the uttermost is a plot device and is null and void for the purpose of the match. Anakin was as of RotS is not yet Darth Vader, so this precludes any content from the last half of the movie.



Granted, Kun is noted as being good. And Vodo calls him the best he had ever trained, but Malak's no slouch with a saber either. As noted above, the official website profile specifically cites him as a badass duellist among the Jedi Order. What you're doing is making an assertion and then failing to provide proof; This also spits in the face of the very carefully worded instructions of the thread.



I don't see how it would 'confuse' Malak. Malak's no newbie to lightsaber use. Doublebladed lightsabers were in vogue during the Jedi Civil War even. So this assertion begs for proof.



Except that you can't substantiate the difference between "Star Forge" Malak (Who falls under plot devices/deus ex machine, etc.) and Exar Kun anyways.



Good for you. Beliefs aren't enough. I want an argument.



How so? Everyone acts like Shatterpoint is unstoppable and always working. Several times in the novel Shatterpoint, Mace's ability doesn't seem to manifest or he clearly can't see a Shatterpoint in a given situation. There's also the nagging point that Shatterpoint only gives the user the ability to see weakness; it doesn't give one the ability to capitolize on it.

Second, Vaapad is a built-up version of Juyo, which relies heavily on drawing on one's own winning urges coupled with erratic, powerful Force-aided motions. Nowhere in the Form's description is it noted as being "the best lightsaber form against lightsaber users". That would be Makashi, of which Dooku is a master of. I do believe that it's absolutely unstoppable in a commando-type situation; Vaapad users implement blaster bolt cover on par with or surpassing a Soresu user, and Force-aided movements on par with Ataru and Sokan users. In an open situation, Mace Windu's style flourishes. But the bottom line is that it's not "teh ultimate!!111" form with no weaknesses. And Count Dooku is most certainly not as inexperienced or untrained in the Force as Kar Vastor.



WTF? Where is there proof of this? Because his Vaapad gives him an edge in holding off Sidious' considerable Sith Lightning?

Episode III Novelisation: p.332-333:

Vaapad is more than a fighting style. It is a state of mind: a channel for darkness. Power passed into him and out again without touching him.

And the circuit completed itself: the lightning reflected back to its source.

This seems to indicate that Mace Windu could be the only trained Jedi with an inherent resistance to Sidious' lightning. Unlike Yoda who had to use his own energy to absorb the attack, Mace Windu could allow it to filter back out. This would be awesome if Dooku was some kind of idiot and intended to use his lightning to defeat Mace Windu without resorting to his lightsaber. However, we all know he's not that kind of moron.

Likewise, Vaapad's "greatness" seems to have put Mace on rather equal footing according to the same source (Mind you, Stover is the guy who created Shatterpoints and refined Vaapad):

P.330

There was a time when Mace Windu had feared the power of the dark; there was a time when he had feared the darkness in himself. But the Clone Wars had given him a gift of understanding: on a world called Haruun Kal, he had faced his darkness and had learned that the power of darkness is not to be feared.

He had learned that it is fear which gives the darkness power.

He was not afraid. The darkness had no power over him. But-

Neither did he have power over it.

Vaapad made him an open channel, half of a superconducting loop completed by the shadow ; they became a standing wave of battle that expanded into every cubic centimeter of the Chancellor's office. There was no scrap of carpet nor shred of chair that might not at any second disintegrate in flares of red or purple; lampstands became brief shields, sliced into segments that whirled through the air; couches became terrain to be climbed for advantage or overleapt in retreat. But there was still only the cycle of power, the endless loop, no wound taken on either side, not even the possibility of fatigue.

Impasse.



Assumption based on what? Stover makes it apparent that Shatterpoint is Mace's unique gift, but that it's not infallible and sometimes there's no Shatterpoint forthcoming. In no piece of work does Mace ever note Dooku's shatterpoint, and when they fought before TPM, Mace still had the ability and he still lost.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
DS:



I agree that Anakin's physical power would give him an edge, but you also neglected one important fact here: nowhere did I indicate that this is Anakin enraged and full of the darkside as he was on Mustafar. I deliberately omitted it and many people are deliberately referencing it and making the assumption that Anakin is going to be balls-to-the-wall pissed and batting Obi-Wan around like a handball. Darth Vader being enraged with the darkside and hating Obi-Wan to the uttermost is a plot device and is null and void for the purpose of the match. Anakin was as of RotS is not yet Darth Vader, so this precludes any content from the last half of the movie.

Ok Janus, if this isn't off the wall ANakin, which is it? As I recall, Anakin is usually "off the wall" when he can't defeat somebody. While Obiwan can hold him off, it will just make Anakin angry, and while Anakin seems to have unlimited reserves of energy, Obiwan does not.


We've seen Exar Kun tool his master with a saber as a padawan. We don't see Malak fighting anyone with a saber other than Bastilla. While Kun was above and beyond everyone during his time, Malak was at least second, maybe third (Revan, Kavar), so he's still a rather unknown.




What do you mean you don't see how it would confuse Malak? Malak not being a newbie with a lightsaber has absolutely nothing to do with him facing an unknown saber and style. Look no further than Bane vs. Kas'im in POD. Furthermore, "doublebladed sabers", or saberstaffs, are NOT what Exar Kun used. Exar Kun used a double bladed saber that had the hilt of a single blade, and had the ability to alter the length and intensity of the blades. This will give Kun an advantage.




No I can't but just making sure that we all understand that SF Malak is Malak at his peak.





Look, I'm not going to argue the inner workings of Vaapad and Shatterpoint. Mace was able to use Vaapad to counter Sidious' lightning. Mace used his SHATTERPOINT to put Sidious on his ass in the saber combat. I am not stating that his 2 skills are infallible, but if he was able to do it to a superior force user and saber combatant, what in the world makes you think he doesn't have the ability to do it to an inferior one (inferior to Sidious)? Unless of course, if you're still operating under the theory that Dooku>Sidious.

Also, I don't know why you mention Dooku besting Mace, because you and I both know that they fought when they were still training padawans, before Mace even developed Vaapad and Shatterpoint, so that point is moot.
When I state that Mace is the most efficient light saber combatant against the darkside, it's because he can channel the darkside through his "Vaapad", and release it back on the dark sider user. And I'm sure you know what he can do with the shatterpoint technique.

He's better by far. Perry has a little thing called 'range'. He can sing damn high, damn medium, and damn low. Axl just has 'damn high'. His voice is like that of Geddy Lee; absolute shit.



Vocally? Richard Marx doesn't compare to Perry or Mercury, based on technical ability alone. Marx has never indicated the prowess required to hit notes that Mercury (a baritone who can sing tenor) can hit, much less Perry (who is a stronger tenor by far than Mercury). Perry and Mercury are on par with one another, but I can give Mercury the edge for the simple fact that the man is baritone and yet can force himself to sing tenor notes. That's hard to do. Add to the fact that he was also trained in opera and was a heavy, chain-smoker. That's pretty damn good.



The only popular Journey song written by just Jonathan Cain would be "Faithfully". "Open Arms", "Separate Ways", "Who's Cryin' Now" were written by both Cain and Perry (and sometimes Neal Schon, Journey's guitarist).

Originally posted by Gideon
He's better by far. Perry has a little thing called 'range'. He can sing damn high, damn medium, and damn low. Axl just has 'damn high'. His voice is like that of Geddy Lee; absolute shit.
Either way, his voice is good and his talent as a musician is top tier.




I'm not sure if you've listened to the bulk of Richard Marx songs, otherwise you wouldn't be making this assertion. I think all 3 of them are the best of the best but I have some bias towards Marx because of his impeccable songwriting skills, mixed with his incredible range. I would say Elvis is better than all 3 of them in pure singing abilities.





I understand, but can Perry write lyrics AND Music? If you take a look at Guns N Roses songs, or Richard Marx songs, you'd see that all of them are written by Axl and Marx, I believe.

Define "top tier". I'd consider that class to be the likes of Neil Peart, Jimi Hendrix, Freddie Mercury, ect. Axl really does not compare to these giants.



While I doubt I've explored Richard Marx's catalogue as well as you have, I can assure you that I know enough about him to make a statement. The fact that he has never been lauded as "one of the best" singers on technical (vocal) ability also leads me to believe this. I don't doubt Marx is a great singer and a great songwriter but that doesn't make him one of the best. As for pure vocals, Elvis is actually one of the greats -- but he doesn't compare to Mercury or Perry.



I believe he has helped write the music. He is a lyricist, but I would say that Neal Schon and Jonathan Cain wrote most of the music. But I don't play an instrument.

Originally posted by Gideon
No, he says that the scene always -- original and otherwise -- like that.
I was unaware Lucas had recorded more lines explaining this, when he simply says he added more later.



Except in this singular instance, apparently. What I'm disputing is that Mace was legitimately overpowering Palpatine in the lightning portion



Because it'd look fake otherwise? Tell me: Mace WAS losing...why would Palpatine want to genuinely kill him there when his plan was obviously to force Anakin to join him on the whole Padme issue?



I very much dobut it either. I also very much dobut that unless Palpatine is holding himself back, that Mace would be able to force his lightning back for any period of time.

Mace was going to lose if Palpatine continued. Palpatine's facial features changing are not the result of lightning deforming him. Those are facts.
Either Palpatine is thinking on his feet when things go bad for him, or he fully intends to fake a weakness rather than destroy Mace there.

Originally posted by Gideon
Define "top tier". I'd consider that class to be the likes of Neil Peart, Jimi Hendrix, Freddie Mercury, ect. Axl really does not compare to these giants.

Top Tier as in the greatest singers/songwriters of our century. That doesn't include Jimi Hendrix. I personally think that the artists that died before their time got over hyped, such as Hendrix, Joplin, Kobain, etc.


What do you mean he hasn't been heralded as (insert category here). I haven't seen Perry mentioned either. Next you're going to tell me that because Steve Perrty sold more records, he's better. More sales or more recognition doesn't necessarily mean better.




Well, I include Rose, Prince, and Marx in the top tier category. I personally feel that prince, as flamboyant as he is, is the most talented musician in the past 100 years. THe guy plays 16 instruments, writes songs for himself and others, and sings incredibly.

However, if we are going by pure voice, you can look no further than Michael Bolton and Josh Groban.

Except Mace "overpowered" Palpatine. You'd have to prove your assertion that Sidious was faking since evidence is to the contrary.




Palpatine understimated Mace, as Yoda underestimated Palpatine, which is why Palpatine was overpowered in one fight, and Yoda, briefly, in the next.




This is your assumption and therefore, begs for proof. I would argue that Mace's Vaapad allowed him to block Sidious' lightning.


No, you KNOW that's speculative at best. Nobody can really tell if it was the lightning or, his sith magic wearing off. I'm sure sources point to the latter, but there's no proof.

Kobain? Certainly. Hendrix, however, was an innovator. 'Greatest' and 'Most Skilled' are two different things. There are guitarists who are as technically skilled (and likely moreso) than Hendrix, but are not as great because they haven't had the impact or the innovation that he has. Joplin is great as well.



You haven't been looking hard enough. Any credible website or analysis of popular male vocalists will have mentioned Perry. Digitaldreamdoor is the name of a very popular website -- they analyize this shit front to back and back to front -- many of them are vocal coaches and singers themselves. It's been debated, discussed, and such on numerous occasions. In terms of talent and ability, Perry is ranked second only to Mercury in the '70s and '80s (in the '90s, Perry lost quite a bit of power and Mercury died ). In a live environment, Perry is considered the greatest singer (not frontman) ever.

As for the record sales argument, I wasn't going to debate that at all.



What you're arguing is subjective. Objectively speaking, Bolton is not as talented as Mercury or Perry, and neither is Groban (though Groban is a powerhouse).

What do you define as talent? If we are speaking strictly of their voices, I don't think there's anyone on the level of Groban or Bolton. Maybe it's subjective and I love Perry but in terms of pure voices, those two are the best in my book.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
What do you define as talent? If we are speaking strictly of their voices, I don't think there's anyone on the level of Groban or Bolton. Maybe it's subjective and I love Perry but in terms of pure voices, those two are the best in my book.

I define talent as ability. Range, power, and control. Range = the ability to hit notes on a spectrum (ie: high, low, medium/tenor, bass, baritone). Power = the strength/force of one's voice. Control = the ability to maintain and continuously hit a note.

In these three areas, Mercury and Perry are better than Bolton and Groban. Mercury was a trained opera singer, a baritone who could sing tenor (and pretty damn well) which is not only amazing, but rare. And he was a heavy chain smoker. Perry is a natural tenor who allowed himself to sing and maintain baritone notes (see 1983 on up), he lowered his pitch to sing with a stronger, gutteral metal sound, and from then on, he managed to go back and forth. Perry's control is relatively peerless (even Mercury is not his equal), he is never -- not even in a live setting -- off pitch. In fact, more people prefer Journey's live performances on Youtube than their studio versions. The disparity is none. And that in itself is rare.

Weird. Groban does opera in 4 different languages. Michael Bolton was voted as the best vocalist in the 90s on some VH1 program..

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Weird. Groban does opera in 4 different languages. Michael Bolton was voted as the best vocalist in the 90s on some VH1 program..

I'm aware of Groban's talents. But, again, Mercury was a chain-smoker and a baritone, yet he could sing tenor and maintain it as well as most tenors could themselves. Groban has no such accolade, and while he is definately one of the best, he's not on par with Mercury or Perry.

And VH-1 is a popularity contest to begin with. I watch it, but it is no more credible than MTV. Though I don't dispute, again, that Bolton is very talented.

I don't know dude. I don't think it gets better than "When a Man Loves a Woman" or 'Remember when it Rained"..

Originally posted by Janus Marius
Using nonlethal training sabers exactly the same as their existing blades save for their inability to cut, the following have been lumped into a tournament by some cynical KMC punk:

Match 1: Anakin Skywalker (RotS) versus Obi-Wan Kenobi (RotS)

Match 2: Exar Kun versus Malak (Exar Kun at his peak; Malak likewise)

Match 3: Count Dooku versus Mace Windu (Both incarnations as of RotS)

Match 4: Darth Maul versus Asajj Ventress and Sora Bolq (Maul as of TPM, obviously; Asajj as of Obsession; Sora at his peak, whatever that was.)



1) At first I thought Anakin since he seems to be faster and stronger, but on second thought I decided Obi-wan would win. They are very close in terms of abilities. However, Anakin tends to eventually make mistakes (running at Dooku instead approaching slowly along with Obi-wan, leaping above Obi-wan on Mustafar), while Obi-wan always takes advantage of mistakes (killing Maul after he didn't finish Obi-wan, chopping off Anakin's limbs on Mustafar).

2)I say Exar Kun. Both of them are considered extremely skilled duelists, but Exar was the best sith of his time, while Malak was second to Revan.

3)This would be a close match. Both are powerful with the force, and are masters of their respective forms. Vaapad would give Mace an edge against darkside powers, but they have dueled before, and Sora Bulq was an adept of Dooku, so Dooku would not make the mistake of using lightning against Mace. Also unlike most darksiders Dooku is very detached and does not seem to use rage. I agree with Janus that Makashi is a better form than vaapad for one on one dueling. Dooku has more experience, but Mace has the very important shatterpoint ability. If Mace finds Dooku's shatterpoint he wins. The majority of the time Dooku wins barely.

4) I do not know that much about Sora and Assaj, however they were both very skilled duelists who defeated multiple jedi. I think their combined force would be enough to defeat Maul, who has not done much.

You know I was just thinking Escape. If you are arguing who has the better "natural" talent, then I would have to agree with you that Perry BARELY nudges Marx. However, due to the fact that Groban and Bolton have been known to do operas (especially Groban who's the best in the world), I would still put their natural talent above Perry..

However, my definition of "talent" is, as you say, subjective. I view talent as not only having an incredible voice, but also having the innate ability to write lyrics and music. Richard Marx has proven time and time again he is in in the top 5 of all time in singers/songwriters, while Perry has not..

'Barely'? I'm sorry but, again, I have to disagree. Steve Perry's vocal ability greatly surpasses Richard Marx's own; it isn't a close match or a 'nudging', it's pure slaughter. Perry has the superior range, the superior control, and the superior vocal power. As for Josh Groban and Michael Bolton, again, neither of them has exhibited vocal ability that surpasses Perry's own. You could argue that they are close (and indeed the gap is much smaller than the one between Perry and Marx), but they have done nothing that surpasses Perry's performances; which he performed live -- again, the disparity between Journey's live performances versus studio performances is professionally considered "zero" -- on numerous occasions.



As you know, I don't like to go into subjectivity unless we're discussing which people we prefer. Who is better -- as far as singing ability -- isn't subjective. It's just fact. Perry is a much more capable singer than Richard Marx. Songwriting skills, by the way, are subjective. They can't be gauged or debated properly since there is no universal source. Most people think jackass-from-Nirvana is the greatest songwriter of all time; I think Nirvana's entire catalogue of songs is shit. But that's just me. Likewise, there are people on Earth who think Perry is a greater songwriter than Marx, and vice versa. Vocal ability can be gauged and compared, writing ability can't.

Nirvana is the best band ever

Originally posted by tulakhordpwns
Nirvana is the best band ever

Originally posted by Gideon

Originally posted by Janus Marius
Match 1: Anakin Skywalker (RotS) versus Obi-Wan Kenobi (RotS)

If this is lightside anakin then Obi-Wan creams him. Obi knows his apprentice forward and backward and taught him almost everything he knows.

If this is pre-suit vader anakin then the fight is very close but i would still say Obi takes it with his wits. Anakin would be to much in a frenzy to rationalize things and Obi will out wit him into doing something stupid.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
Match 2: Exar Kun versus Malak (Exar Kun at his peak; Malak likewise)
Exar Kun would be way to powerful for Malak. He would just slauter him with the force and maybe toy around with him in lightsaber combat.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
Match 3: Count Dooku versus Mace Windu (Both incarnations as of RotS)
Windu takes this one but not without injuries. Dooku's calm nature would not help Mace much with Vaapad but nonetheless Mace did outdo Sidious so Dooku would go down as well.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
Match 4: Darth Maul versus Asajj Ventress and Sora Bolq (Maul as of TPM, obviously; Asajj as of Obsession; Sora at his peak, whatever that was.)

Maul takes this one in a heat beat. Asajj would get her bald head sliced off in no time and Sora would go down shortly. Maul is just too experienced and fast for them. He killed Qui-Gon and Asajj hasnt done much except annoy Obi and Ani.

Janus didnt say anything about not being allowed to knock them around with the force and i think mace would get some pretty nasty bruises

Maul takes this one in a heat beat. Asajj would get her bald head sliced off in no time and Sora would go down shortly. Maul is just too experienced and fast for them. He killed Qui-Gon and Asajj hasnt done much except annoy Obi and Ani. Uh, no, not really. Sora Bulq himself managed to beat the living sh*t out of Quinlan Vos before being killed in a moment of overconfidence. And earlier, he managed to go toe-to-toe with Mace at a time where Asajj - who by that point had already almost killed both Anakin and Obi-Wan in duels - had to run for her life from the Jedi. And considering he helped Windu perfect Vaapad, Maul's Juyo advantage is obsolete.

Ventress herself is another story entirely. She didn't "annoy" Anakin and Obi-Wan, she very nearly killed them multiple times. Anakin had to go all Darth Vader on her to come out alive in both of their major duels, and she's actually outfought Obi-Wan before.

So Maul, faced with two people very near his own level of prowess and wielding dual/double-bladed styles of their own, is not going to come out of this on top. Since this is by first strike he might be able to tag one of them out, but there's no way he can win.

Originally posted by Gideon
greatly surpasses Richard Marx's own; it isn't a close match or a 'nudging', it's pure slaughter. Perry has the superior range, the superior control, and the superior vocal power. As for Josh Groban and Michael Bolton, again, neither of them has exhibited vocal ability that surpasses Perry's own. You could argue that they are close (and indeed the gap is much smaller than the one between Perry and Marx), but they have done nothing that surpasses Perry's performances; which he performed live -- again, the disparity between Journey's live performances versus studio performances is professionally considered "zero" -- on numerous occasions.
This is a matter of opinion on your part. I can just as easily say Groban and Bolton DO surpass Perry as evident by some of their operas. As far as "pure slaughter", that is also a matter of opinion. Truthfully, I don't know if this is something that can be debated, as we both have our own opinions on the subject..





I think singing abilities ARE subjective, which is why we are arguing over Bolton, Groban, Marx, and Perry.

I've never seen an argument so intense, yet so controlled, on KMC; and on an un-SW-related (?) topic no less. Hats off to you two.

Well, on KMC you don't get banned for formulating your own opinions, no matter how irrelevant they are. At the same time, this debate is a lot more heated and controversial than the actual match.

You really need to get over EoD. It's not like you were banned - only temporarily, I might add - without very good reason.

1. I'm not mentioning EOD as much as every forum with these rules
2. If by good reason you mean I went against someone who can preach logic all day but can't apply it to a debate, much less objectively, and who parades around the whole being a mod nonsense, then you are correct.

I am forced to agree with this statement. Threatening to ban Glentract because he's using Wong's pseudomath seems a bit over the top, imo.

1. Please. You've been b*tching about the place all week, for no reason.
2. By good reason I mean that you were warned numerous times throughout the thread, that you decided to completely ignore the opponent's actual argument - that yours was invalid - and that you're a sock. There's really incontrovertible evidence for that (your IP address), and that alone deserves a perma-ban. Even better is that it was a well-known fact that you'd been banned before, but the staff never took any action against you. Want to try your luck with KMC's mods?

ermm

I think he already has. He's still here isn't he? We all know who he is, as well.

I'm sure they'd react differently - Ush especially - if they saw the matching IP addresses...

And as to Glentract, Blax; you understand the guy tried to explain Force power in terms of calories, right? He's out of control in the math department, and he's been stretching out a stupid argument for days, one that's already been stomped into the ground. Not to mention that Illustrious never actually threatened to ban him; he simply gave his first verbal warning.

I actually agree that the things that go on in Star Wars, like the force, can't be quantified the way he says it can. I'm just saying... warning him because fo it seems.. a bit over the top. However, he could have gotten it much worse. I've actually seen people get banned over stuff like that, so I'm not complaining.

It isn't a matter of opinion, Darth Sexy. You can compare vocal performances by each artist and objectively dictate which one exhibits superior power, range, and control. Perry shits on Marx, and he's performed better than Groban and Bolton consistently. Not everything is subjective, as you can gauge vocal ability based on these three requirements. And this is where Marx, Bolton, and Groban don't measure up.



Singing ability isn't subjective. Power, range, and control are objective. Which vocalist one prefers is subjective. But that isn't the argument.

Originally posted by Faunus
1. Please. You've been b*tching about the place all week, for no reason.
2. By good reason I mean that you were warned numerous times throughout the thread, that you decided to completely ignore the opponent's actual argument - that yours was invalid - and that you're a sock. There's really incontrovertible evidence for that (your IP address), and that alone deserves a perma-ban. Even better is that it was a well-known fact that you'd been banned before, but the staff never took any action against you. Want to try your luck with KMC's mods?


Please show me where I have been "bitching". And if I HAVE been bitching, please show me how it's been for a week. Go ahead..

My argument was NOT invalid. The other argument was not only invalid, but the same fallacies that were preached, were committed as well.

Furthermore, I wouldn't get banned on this forum because the mods aren't antisocial psuedointellectuals that preach logic all day but couldn't apply it, nor debate objectively..

Not to mention I've proven who I am and who I am not on this forum, and besides this blaxican hydra character, who never contributes to debates, everybody knows who I am.

I'm not going to lecture about off-topic arguments since Darth Sexy and I are debating about Michael Bolton, Steve Perry, and Richard Marx on a Star Wars versus thread -- but perhaps you could both try to be more civil to one another? And I will also say that I have had my problems with the management of EoD on more than one occasion, as you well know, and I'm not the only one.

Originally posted by Gideon
It isn't a matter of opinion, Darth Sexy. You can compare vocal performances by each artist and objectively dictate which one exhibits superior power, range, and control. Perry shits on Marx, and he's performed better than Groban and Bolton consistently. Not everything is subjective, as you can gauge vocal ability based on these three requirements. And this is where Marx, Bolton, and Groban don't measure up.
This may be true for Perry vs. Marx. While I agree Perry has a bigger range, I don't think it's a slaughter. HOWEVER, it IS subjective because based on every single Groban and Bolton performance, I have surmised that those two are a little better than Perry. They are at the very least in his vocal range.





I'm not telling you who I prefer but I am arguing that singing abilities can't POSSIBLY be objective because we both have knowledge on these singers, yet we disagree on who has the better range and singing abilities.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Please show me where I have been "bitching". And if I HAVE been bitching, please show me how it's been for a week. Go ahead..I'm really not about to go through every thread I've read in the past several days, but here's something from a thread I surfed today:

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Yea KMC is the most objective forum i've ever been on. The rest just ban you when they're wrong or when you don't agree with their ridiculous views.

To which Glentract replies:



And you reply with a duh. There's more, as I'm sure aware of, but again, I'm not wasting time finding it.

Your argument was completely invalid.

"Character A was shown doing more than Character B, so Character A > Character B."

Nice work.

So you would like me to post/PM your IP adress - and your that of your previous sock - here for all the mods to see?

I'm sure plenty of people here know who you are, and Illustrious has proven it irrefutably, td.

Richard Marx versus Steve Perry? In range? Yes. It's a slaughter. Perry can hit higher notes -- by far (I'll link you to some songs) -- and he also lowered his range to hit baritone notes, which is Marx's general range. The only place that Perry can't hit is bass, but most professional vocalists can't anyways. Perry vs. Bolton? Again, Perry's head voice and falsetto is higher, clearer, and stronger than Bolton's. And Groban's. They might be able to go lower, but I doubt it. Are they gifted singers with great ranges? Yes. But they can't get as high as Perry, and they just might be able to get lower.



It's because you seem to have a poor conception of what 'range', 'power', and 'control' is, and it's nothing to be ashamed of (I had no ****ing clue myself until I visited digitaldreamdoor). Range is the spectrum of notes. High notes, low notes, ect. Perry can go higher than Bolton, Groban, or Marx and he might be able to go just as low. Ergo, he'd have the better range. Control is the ability to maintain notes. Perry can maintain some of the most difficult, highest notes in the rock industry, whereas Marx hasn't exhibited the ability, and Groban and Bolton don't maintain high notes as well either. Power is the force behind notes. Here is where it could be close between Bolton and Groban and Perry, since the latter two -- especially Groban -- are trained opera singers.

But all in all? It's not that close.

Originally posted by Faunus
I'm really not about to go through every thread I've read in the past several days, but here's something from a thread I surfed today:



To which Glentract replies:



And you reply with a duh. There's more, as I'm sure aware of, but again, I'm not wasting time finding it.
Oh you mean where I stated that a lot of these forums argue subjectively and out of ignorance and if someone disagrees they get banned? Notice how I said forums, that included EOD. I hardly consider this "bitching about EOD", much less for a week.


No, my argument was not only that character A was shown more than character B, but that there's no possible way character B could have had greater power than character A. Again, when you kids used to argue for the ancient sith, I didn't see you preach "omg they are unknown so we can't argue". I love the hypocrisy though.


Go ahead. This is going to prove what? Oh right...Nothing



Hey, whatever helps you feel better about yourself. Go ahead and amuse me.

crylaugh

Just because I don't debate HERE, in this Star Wars section, doesn't mean my opinion doesn't mean anything, or things I say don't matter. Besides I have no doubt that if I actually engaged you in an argument over something that I'm highly knowledgeable about, I could debate in circles around you

Originally posted by Gideon
Richard Marx versus Steve Perry? In range? Yes. It's a slaughter. Perry can hit higher notes -- by far (I'll link you to some songs) -- and he also lowered his range to hit baritone notes, which is Marx's general range. The only place that Perry can't hit is bass, but most professional vocalists can't anyways. Perry vs. Bolton? Again, Perry's head voice and falsetto is higher, clearer, and stronger than Bolton's. And Groban's. They might be able to go lower, but I doubt it. Are they gifted singers with great ranges? Yes. But they can't get as high as Perry, and they just might be able to get lower.
Again bro I will disagree with you on this. Bolton and Groban CAN go as high as Perry, and can go VERY low as well. Groban has a clearer voice, but Bolton has a wider range (I believe). We can view the best of each singers, and decide.




Maybe I do, but as someone who's been playing Piano since I was 6, I think I understand these concepts pretty well. As I see it, all 3 (excluding Marx) could go very high and very low. However, after viewing a lot of Groban/Bolton videos, I came to the conclusion that they can go slightly higher AND slightly lower. In terms of a POWERFUL voice? I don't think ANYBODY beats out Michael Bolton for that. But give me some Perry songs to download (if I don't know them all), and I'll take a look.

Originally posted by BlaxicanHydra
crylaugh

Just because I don't debate HERE, in this Star Wars section, doesn't mean my opinion doesn't mean anything, or things I say don't matter. Besides I have no doubt that if I actually engaged you in an argument over something that I'm highly knowledgeable about, I could debate in circles around you

This is a matter of opinion which, with your credibility (or lack thereof), doesn't hold much water.

Credability here, you mean

Try the Video game vs. if you'd like "credability". besides you shouldn't be talking about credability.

"Lay It Down":
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qpQdG3GLhTw

"Something To Hide":
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=egBGfIW6CRM&mode=related&search=

"Mother Father" (live version, this is the best live vocal perfomance ever)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuxleqU0iDg&mode=related&search=

For lower range:

"Oh Sherrie"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6mpzhUQCEU

"Faithfully"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxSMsIFkDZY


---- Those are just some off the top of my head.

Originally posted by BlaxicanHydra
Credability here, you mean

Try the Video game vs. if you'd like "credability". besides you shouldn't be talking about credability.



Actually no, it IS credibility. And with that, I rest my case. Thank you fr playing..


Escape, I'm viewing the videos as we speak.

Yea, I like Mother, Father.. But I think his true potential is brought up with Oh Sherrie, or Faithfully. And yes his range is incredible.. Let me find you a Josh Groban video..

Thank you for playing, not fr.

I'm sorry to say but your "case" (or lack thereof) is diluted, td. My credibility is actually better then yours, sock.

Right.. An illiterate tool in denial.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Yea, I like Mother, Father.. But I think his true potential is brought up with Oh Sherrie, or Faithfully. And yes his range is incredible.. Let me find you a Josh Groban video..

I'm a Groban-fan. Familiar with some of his best. As I said, Digitaldreamdoor has a good ranking system. But Perry's high notes just shit all over Bolton's, I'm sorry.

So says the sock.

Right, prove it or shut up, because youre the only one on here.. So much for "Credability".

Blax, don't make me beat that ass.


"Sweet and Simple" -- hits a note that breaks glass live.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PzmpQW8meyk&mode=related&search=

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Right, prove it or shut up, because youre the only one on here.. So much for "Credability".

How do you know? We all know, we just don't care. Have you asked everyone here in the last three minutes? I doubt it. My "credibiltiy" doesn't depend on a socks opinion.

Translation: I'm the only one stupid enough to make such an assertion..

Translation- My arguments been destroyed so I have to resort to insults.

LOL.. Wow, we have Noobaris jr.. Another idiot who thinks everything he types is some pwnage to another argument. I can see why you don't "debate" here.

Escape, getting some videos.

I'm Noobaris Jr.? I'm not the sock, td.

Sure, you're just an incompetent fool here as a forum clown..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CLKF2Es266c
^Remember when it rained.. My Youtube is acting funny but I think this is his best song.. Either that or "You are Loved".. I'm looking for some operas, but listen to his voice.. It's crisp, clear, and amazing.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Sure, you're just an incompetent fool here as a forum clown..

Quite frankly, I'd rather be an incompetant fool then an incompetant ass, td, which is what you're making yorusel out to be.

You're embarassing yourself kid, especially with your denial and projection issues.

Your embarassing yourself with your half-assed insults.

Youre*.. But please keep humoring me.. We need a new forum clown since Noobaris was banned.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CwATMMi23yc

^This is one of my favorites Escape?

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Youre*.. But please keep humoring me.. We need a new forum clown since Noobaris was banned.

I gues you can take his place, if the best counter you can think of is making fun of a typo.

I don't need to make fun of you. Your posts are good enough humor.

Yet you try and fail to do so anyway. Bored? Lack of a life?

That's nice outcast.. Let the grownups type now..

Listen to your own advice, kiddo.

Proof enough? Of course, considering you still deny the fact that you're tdtd even on EoD, I don't expect you to 'fess up and leave graciously. But hey, that's your call.

Then again, I suppose it's only coincidence that you joined the day tdtd was banned.

I joined the day tdtd was banned? What the hell are you talking about Faunus? Go ahead and show me that one, try not to make it up though seeing as how I know who I am and when I joined.

td's profile states that he was last online on July 12th, 2006. The date you joined, in case you're completely incapable of clicking on your own name. Hence, you joining the last day td was here. Simple enough for you?

If you don't give in now, which I know you won't, you're truly pathetic. Which I know you are. So have fun trying to bullshit your way out of the truth again.

I don't have to bullshit my way out of the truth faunus. For me to do that, this forum would have to believe that I'm lying. The burden of proof isn't on me. Thanks for playing.

If by "the forum" you mean "everyone in the forum," then yeah, I'm sure they all believe you're lying. All the ones with half a brain anyway.

Originally posted by Faunus
If by "the forum" you mean "everyone in the forum," then yeah, I'm sure they all believe you're lying. All the ones with half a brain anyway.


Clever assertion. Again, if that little lie makes you sleep better at night then I'm happy for you. You are entitled to your own opinion, no matter how much it differs from reality..

Just out of curiosity.. were do you think those numbers came from?

Wtf is were? You mean where? At least try to sound intelligible...

Wow, for a college student you're pretty immature

Yes, because pointing out your grammatical errors makes me immature. How about a "Thank you" for trying to make sure that you don't sound retarded?

How about get that stick out of your ass? Yes, completely avoiding a question asked to you by pointing out a grammatica lerror online makes you immature, td.

And in reality (Which you have no concept of), making those grammatical errors consistently makes YOU an idiot. Me correcting you makes me appear nice and intelligent.. Thanks again..

Uh...no. Grasping for straws by continuing to avoid my question makes you neither intelligent nor nice. Funny.

It is clear that you have no understanding of what a straw man is and are attempting (and failing) to sound intelligent. Keep trying though, this is adorable.

Originally posted by BlaxicanHydra
Just out of curiosity.. where do you think those numbers came from?

What numbers? What on earth are you babbling about?

How the hell would I know? I'm not the one that pulled these numbers... Not to mention I find it highly unlikely that I have the IP of another member, or much less the same IP daily, seeing as how I'm on dynamic cable. I guess being a debater has no bearing on one's ethernet knowledge.

So you just happen to have the same IP via dynamic cable as someone else who visited the forum and got banned the day you signed up?

Wow, that's one hell of a coincidence.

Please show me when I signed up to EOD and when "tdtd" got banned from EOD, since you claim it was on the same day. At the same time, I'm sure you (hopefully) understand that with a dynamic IP, it changes anywhere from 12-24 hours. Some of you guys should seriously do less preaching and definitely less detective work...Once again, if you're going to call me out on something, good for you. But I've proven on this forum, without a shadow of a doubt, that I am not who you say I am. If you don't want to believe it, I don't really care. I don't need arrogant pseudointellectuals trying to find out who I really am..

Not to point any fingers, DS, or start up an argument, but they do have some convincing evidence. And you do have a lot in common with Tdtd.

DS, wake up. Faunus is pointing out the fact that you joined KMC the same day tdtd was banned, in addition to having a sock at EoD after your initial account was banned for trolling.

Wow, please explain what it is I have in common with "tdtd"? Since everyone is a detective this week, I'd like to know.

Jewish college student with a perchant for trolling, bashing, and pseudologic debating who answers to variations of the name "David".

Really though, those are such common traits. Just like identical dynamic IPs.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
Jewish college student with a perchant for trolling, bashing, and pseudologic debating who answers to variations of the name "David".
Spare with your rhetoric Janus. I haven't "trolled" on these forums, nor have I bashed anybody that didn't deserve it. If you want to call my arguments pseudological, so be it. I can just as easily say that you can preach "logic logic logic" all you want, but when it comes to debating objectively using that logic, you don't seem to have any clue as to how (you seem to have improved unlike some of the others). Your opinion is your opinion.



I'm going to assume you don't have a clue as to what a dynamic IP is. It's very simple Janus. I am telling you I'm not who you think I am. Either prove it (omgz same ips!!), or let it go.

Right.



They typically are.



And you're entitled to your opinion, wrong as it may be.



There you go- assuming. You know the old adage.



I'd say you're proving my case for me really. You haven't been very good at disproving any accusations with anything other than coincidences and identical IP information which is less likely then getting screwed by Pam Anderson and the Pope in the same night. I like how you think you can tell me to "let it go" as if you have any decisive power over what I post. Very amusing.

If there really was nothing to these claims, you wouldn't be so adamant in half-assed attacking them, would you?

Originally posted by Janus Marius
They typically are.
Ah they typically are? Well then coming from such an esteemed and objective debater such as yourself, I guess they are...




Right.. My opinion is wrong.. That makes a lot of sense. But since the forum nerds love an old fashioned game of "I know you are but what am I", I can play too. Janus, your opinion is wrong.. See what I did there? I basically repeated your nonsense.




You see Janus, this is the concept that eludes you. You call me "not very good" at disproving accusations, but I don't find myself disproving anything. It's actually very simple. I say it's not who you think it is. Since you keep making a claim (and making it seem like this is your life's pursuit), you either prove it or stop bothering me about it. Talk about amusing.. Once more, in case you're incapable of "getting it". Prove it or let it go.


No, I'm not attacking your claims at all. You seem to take the internet a little too seriously while I know who I am and at the same time who I am not. Because the burden of proof is on you, I don't really have to do much but sit back and watch you complain and accuse me of defrauding the forums.. It's really amusing.

EDIT

Good that you recognize something obvious for once.



Your opinion, which means to hold a viewpoint as fact, is factually wrong. Yes. You say I cannot objectively use logic. This is obviously wrong. Since you're making the claim, I suppose you could man up or shut up, whichever appeals to you best.



You don't, because you never disprove anything; you simply strawman, attack the other person, or use misdirections to mask the incompetency of your own tactics.



This is the second time you've said this, yet it doesn't seem to work for you, does it?



You need to pay better attention: I have backed up Faunus' claim that you are tdtd's sock. My evidence includes that you joined the same exact day that tdtd was banned, that you act just like him in all respects which is something everyone else notices as well, and you've had two accounts at my own forum who were noted for similar trolling, bashing, misdirection and socking. So really, it all comes together. I'm not making this my "life quest"; it's quite laughable that you have such a high esteem of yourself. I'm merely bored and you always bite when someone disagrees with you.



I've made my points. You can either answer to them, or remain silent and let us all make our own decisions on it.



O rly?



I call that attacking the claim, don't you?



Take the internet too seriously? You take yourself too seriously.



Really, I don't have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that you've socked and trolled, DS. You've done that quite well yourself. My points are thus:

* You act just like tdtd: trolling, bashing, being a pseudointellectual bully and prick. This claim is echoed by others here as well.

* You joined the same day that tdtd was banned.

* You've acted the same way at my forum, under two different accounts. One was banned for trolling, acting like a jerk, and socking.

It's not enough to get you convicted for life, but it's pretty condemning. Your own defense here doesn't help you much. You claim that:

* You have a dynamic IP from a cable company, and somehow your IP matches exactly as your "David" screenname that was used on an earlier "Dave" screenname. Both screennames have professed to have similar interests, occupations, and writing styles.

* It's a coincidence that you happened to sign up on KMC the same day tdtd was banned.

* Everyone else is full of it and they have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that you're tdtd even though it seems painfully obvious.

Please. I need more of your cheap entertainment. Reply.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
Good that you recognize something obvious for once.
Sarcasm is above you?




I tell you what.. You show me my "pseudological" arguments, since you made the initial claim, and I'll show you your subjective arguments. I guess you sort of missed that part.





Please show me where I:
1. Had to disprove something
2. attack a person or use misdirection that WASNT justifiable..




I guess this is a matter of opinion yet again?




I'm glad you can define everyone as you, Faunus, and maybe Escape. Furthermore, you call what I did trolling, bashing, and misdirection. I call it having a forum where the mods can't argue objectively (as proven time and time again by the participants of this forum who are also on yours). Not only that but it's painfully obvious if people don't agree with you, they leave. Which makes me really question why it is that you created an offshoot of KMC. I'm glad a customer service rep such as yourself is so bored that he needs to throw out accusations.




I'm still waiting on proof on the majority of them. "I'm fairly certain"-not proof.




What kind of an idiot doesn't?




Wow I called that one.. The "I know you are but what am I" game. I call you a pseudointellectual and you respond in kind. This claim is echoed by others? Who? You? FAunus? I'm glad you have such a firm grasp of reality. Furthermore, I have not trolled on this forum, nor bullied anyone who didn't deserve it. In fact I'm waiting on anyone confirming me being a troll here, since you love using that term.


OMG!


Oh I'm sure you do. I'm already amused by your pseudointellectual behavior. You do fail to understand a few points though:
You are not everyone. Stop appealing to the majority, especially since there's no majority to agree with you.
Me joining the same day as tdtd has no significance whatsoever.
Your efforts with this are persistent beyond belief. You REALLY seem bored, detective.
This may not be a court of law but you've yet to fully prove I am who you say I am. But since you enjoy this so much, please continue. I enjoy the hypocrisy and double standards.

Btw I also find it ironic that you and Rex have such different Sock checkers. Yours must be top of the line..

It's right here.



This thread and the link above provided.



Click on "Darth Sexy" on your screen, left hand side. Then click on "View all posts". If you can't find it there, you're just not trying.



Those are the vocal few on this thread. If you think they're the only ones, you're in the dark here.



This is true.



You've made this stink before. Bitter because you were booted for violating the rules and being given many chances to clean up your act?



I'm not sure why you consider it an offshoot of KMC.



I thought you said my claims had no merit and that you're not attacking them. Why do you require more proof than what I've provided if the accusations have no truth to them?



More irrelevant misdirection, and you even admit to personal attacks.



You have bullied and trolled here, despite who you think "deserves it". And it's not as if you'd believe anyone's word anyways. You simply just like being the center of attention.



I imagine you're easily amused, tdtd.



Appealing to majority? By stating that people tend to notice that you're tdtd in thought and deed? Am I to come about that conclusion without considering the thoughts of others? Isn't that a bit stupid- claiming that it's "appeal to majority" when I state that other people think you're tdtd? It's a statement which, in light of other evidence, holds more weight than a simple lie, don't you think?

Oh wait. No you don't. Sorry. Didn't mean to embarass you by asking that question aloud.



Sure it does. It's grounds for suspicion. Your actions and behavior simply reinforce that suspicion.



Persistant? I guess if you think so.



I really don't have to prove it at this point. For one, access to IP addresses of tdtd and yourself is beyond my capability here, and really I don't care either way. I'm simply egging you on because you get all riled whenever I disagree with you or single you out.

Two, I've established grounds for suspicion, and that's sufficient because people who know you and know tdtd will agree with my points; and those who do not know the two of you won't care. So it works either way.



1. Show me a specific instance of "hypocrisy".
2. Show me a specific instance of "double standards".

I'd love to see you do something other than blow smoke out of your ass.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
It's right here.



This thread and the link above provided.
Oh right.. Because it's a stretch to state that due to Yoda's certain force/saber mastery, he is superior to Nadd because Nadd could in no way have mastered the lightsaber at age 16, unless he was a super powered version of Sidious. Yea, REAL stretch, REALLY fallacious argument. What's REALLY funny is after viewing the 'ancient sith pwn all' debates, you and the rest of your friends had NO problems debating unknowns. All of a sudden, it's not only an unknown but there's NO way we can get ANY evidence out of it. I've had people on this forum telling me there was no problem with what I wrote and that Illustrious overreacted. But what do you expect from such objective debaters who I either have to agree with, or leave..




That's very logical. You make a claim yet I have to search. Once again I never denied bashing people.. I do it when they deserve it. Have you ever seen me bash Escape? Advent? Lightsnake (For non fanboyish reasons)? No? Well that's because they are the only ones on here that can debate and I respect them. Good point though!




I don't need a chance to clean up my act, since this only means that I have to throw out all the sources and logic, and debate to your liking. Do I look like someone that fairs well against authority?




I said in MY opinion it looks like an offshoot because it seems like a bunch of disgruntled ancient sith fans left due to actual sources and logic being against them. But again this is my opinion, so don't take this as a "personal attack"..




I don't require more proof. But if you're going to keep on going in circles, I suggest you throw in some proof, because a big shot like you wouldn't be wasting his time for no apparent reason..




I've never denied attacking people, whats your point? Irrelevant MisdirectioN? LOL..




Yet again, you claiming it doesn't make it so. I have bullied people on here but I've never been called a troll. But I guess for someone who rarely visits this forum, this should be taken as fact.





Well aren't you just precious? Internet forums easily amuse me. And stop calling me tdtd..




It's a stupid statement because you consider "everyone", you and Faunus, which is certainly not a majority. Yet since you're considering it "everyone", you're appealing to a majority.


How did you embarass me? Oh right.. I understand your character. You type something and consider it "pwnage".




So you say.




Thank you for allowing me to think. I'm so glad I have your approval..




How can you possibly know if I'm riled up or not, Dr Laura? Not even the best psychologists in the world can tell when someone's "riled up" due to text? For all you know I'm just responding to your nonsense with more sarcasm than you post. Does the thought that you MIGHT be riling me up make you feel better?



Look no further than the ancient sith fanboyism that was on this forum before you guys packed up and left. Now people from here have a difficult time debating on EOD because you choose to ignore sources just because you disagree with them. Yet when an ancient sith (nadd) and a PT Jedi (Yoda), are involved in a versus fight, it's somehow an unknown. Nevermind that there's no evidence whatsoever that Nadd ever used his lightsaber after he killed his master. Nevermind that Yoda, as an 800 year old master, is second to nobody, not even Sidious, who is Nadd's superior. Let me guess. "Sidious is not the most powerful since none of the sources are in universe!". You ignore simple sources and throw in your own deluded logic. Hell, reading Dooku>Sidious gave me enough to laugh about.

Escape, here are more videos you need to see

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Gtypu7wLPjo
This is another performance of "Remember when it rained". Notice the clearness, the power, and the range. I'm actually starting to think that in terms of clearness, he is better than Bolton.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=TdbekB_HBQs
VERY good live performance of "You are loved". A little short though..

http://youtube.com/watch?v=_t9I-_ARqeg
This one is just sick.. That's all I can say..

http://youtube.com/watch?v=qYQacA5Rm18
Another sick performance of "You Are Loved". Did you know this man can sing in 4-5 languages? Anyways.. I think there is someone very important we forgot to add into this argument. I don't know if you will agree with me but I certainly consider him in their league, at least..

http://youtube.com/watch?v=DhlkEDY_O84
None other than George Michael. This is by far his best performance..