He-Man vs Juggernaut...tug of war

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charlemagne9746
He-Man vs Juggs. Juggs grabs his end of the rope and walks the other direction. Now, He-Man is as strong as he NEEDS to be...according to many people. If he needs to be strong enough to stop Juggs forward momentum, could he? It is said that nothin' can stop Juggernauts forward momentum. This is classic Juggernaut.

laughing

Just for arguments sake...let's say that this rope was given enhanced durability by the TOAA...so, the rope will not break under any circumstances.

Apolloknight
Originally posted by charlemagne9746
He-Man vs Juggs. Juggs grabs his end of the rope and walks the other direction. Now, He-Man is as strong as he NEEDS to be...according to many people. If he needs to be strong enough to stop Juggs forward momentum, could he? It is said that nothin' can stop Juggernauts forward momentum. This is classic Juggernaut.

laughing

Just for arguments sake...let's say that this rope was given enhanced durability by the TOAA...so, the rope will not break under any circumstances.

Does Juggernaut start moving forward then He-man grabs the rope and attempts to stop him? if so then Juggernaut.

If they start at the same time, Juggernaut cant build up momentum so its hard to tell.

Ptr_Grifin
It doesn't matter how much physical might He-man has, he isn't stopping Juggernaut. You have to account that there is nothing that He-man could step on that won't break or give way under his feet, or nothing he could pull on for that matter. That is the whole point of his unstoppable enchantment. The times Juggernaut was stopped, it was a energy attack the negated his enchantment (ex. Thor's godblast, and Celestial energy).

h1a8
Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
It doesn't matter how much physical might He-man has, he isn't stopping Juggernaut. You have to account that there is nothing that He-man could step on that won't break or give way under his feet, or nothing he could pull on for that matter. That is the whole point of his unstoppable enchantment. The times Juggernaut was stopped, it was a energy attack the negated his enchantment (ex. Thor's godblast, and Celestial energy).

Good point! He-man would just be dug deep into the ground because the ground would give.

gogogadgetgo
he-man!!!

janus77
He-Man >> Juggernaut yes

severance
Rope would snap!!!!

Kutulu
Originally posted by severance
Rope would snap!!!!

Wrong answer.

Decay
i cant see he-man winning. juggernaut has tried walking into thors godforce before, only the ground caved. we didnt see who would have won, but the fact that thors godforce couldnt move the juggernaut when he didnt want to be moved is a big enough feat for me to vote for him.

plus, as far as i know he-man fatigues, hes only going to get weaker as time goes on. juggernaut could keep it up forever and he wouldnt even be breathing hard.

severance
Originally posted by Kutulu
Wrong answer.

oops didn't read this embarrasment

Just for arguments sake...let's say that this rope was given enhanced durability by the TOAA...so, the rope will not break under any circumstances

in which case I go for Juggs

Hannibal-Lector
Juggy....

llagrok
Wouldn't He-man's arms or torso come clean off eventually?

darthgoober
This fight would actually come down to which is greater, the magic of Castle Greyskull or the power of Cyttorak so I won't make a call here due to a lack of evidence in that regard. However I would like to address one thing...

Originally posted by Decay
i cant see he-man winning. juggernaut has tried walking into thors godforce before, only the ground caved. we didnt see who would have won, but the fact that thors godforce couldnt move the juggernaut when he didnt want to be moved is a big enough feat for me to vote for him.

plus, as far as i know he-man fatigues, hes only going to get weaker as time goes on. juggernaut could keep it up forever and he wouldnt even be breathing hard.
Thor's godblast DID stop Juggs. In fact it was pushing Juggs back until the ground collapsed under him.

FrothByte
if they started pulling at the same time (stationary) then he-man. juggy wouldn't have been able to start any momentum so he-man's strength would win out. but if juggy even manages to get an inch moving, then juggy all the way.

Adam_PoE
Originally posted by charlemagne9746
He-Man vs Juggs. Juggs grabs his end of the rope and walks the other direction. Now, He-Man is as strong as he NEEDS to be...according to many people. If he needs to be strong enough to stop Juggs forward momentum, could he? It is said that nothin' can stop Juggernauts forward momentum. This is classic Juggernaut.

laughing

Just for arguments sake...let's say that this rope was given enhanced durability by the TOAA...so, the rope will not break under any circumstances.

He-Man will reach infinite energy before the Juggernaut approaches infinite inertia.

quanchi112
Originally posted by FrothByte
if they started pulling at the same time (stationary) then he-man. juggy wouldn't have been able to start any momentum so he-man's strength would win out. but if juggy even manages to get an inch moving, then juggy all the way. cosigned.

CaptainStoic
Classic Juggernaut will win this every time, he has no upper limit to his strength, there is nothing that can stop him, He-Man can be stopped, and Cyttorak is more powerful than Greyskull.

Adam_PoE
Originally posted by CaptainStoic
Classic Juggernaut will win this every time, he has no upper limit to his strength, there is nothing that can stop him, He-Man can be stopped, and Cyttorak is more powerful than Greyskull.

There is no limit to the power of He-Man either; the difference is that He-Man can become infinitely powerful instantaneously, whereas the Juggernaut must build momentum.

King_Cold
Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
It doesn't matter how much physical might He-man has, he isn't stopping Juggernaut. You have to account that there is nothing that He-man could step on that won't break or give way under his feet, or nothing he could pull on for that matter. That is the whole point of his unstoppable enchantment. The times Juggernaut was stopped, it was a energy attack the negated his enchantment (ex. Thor's godblast, and Celestial energy).

What about War Hulk?

Hannibal-Lector
Originally posted by Adam_PoE
There is no limit to the power of He-Man either; the difference is that He-Man can become infinitely powerful instantaneously, whereas the Juggernaut must build momentum.

Juggy doesnt need momentum... he is granted infinite strength by big C, the only things that stop him are divine sources greater than big C: IE odin force, celestrial tech (on war hulk), and the poor writing of Onslaught saga....

janus77
^^ which pretty much means that he's not got "infinite" strength, he's not "unstoppable", not invulnerable etc etc.

it wasn't the celestial tech that stopped juggernaut, it was War Hulk's power born of two universes of energy (one that he always has access to) iirc.

Priest
Juggernaut ftw, the War Hulk incident was PIS.

janus77
rofl.

Adam_PoE
Originally posted by Hannibal-Lector
Juggy doesnt need momentum...

If the Juggernaut is stationary, then he is already stopped. In order to be unstoppable, he must be building momentum by definition.

Hannibal-Lector
Janus i thought u gave up already...
http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c379/Doggydogg/Hulk461.jpg

His strength was amp'd via Celestrial tech, not to say wut u said isnt also true

It wasnt a PIS... it just wasnt hulks own power

Dgw2007
if juggy got 1 CM momemtom he would win if startewd same time and no momemtom he would lose

Ptr_Grifin
Originally posted by Dgw2007
if juggy got 1 CM momemtom he would win if startewd same time and no momemtom he would lose

I think it would be impossible for him NOT to get any momentum.

Adam_PoE
Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
I think it would be impossible for him NOT to get any momentum.

A tug-of-war begins from a stationary position. He-Man would have infinite strength before the tug-of-war begins. Juggernaut would have to build moment to even approach infinite inertia.

charlemagne9746
well, the purpose of this thread is to see if He-Man is storng enough to stop juggs momentum. Juggs is walkin' the other direction with his end of the rope before he-man begins to pull his end. it's basically what goober stated earlier. what is more powerful...power of greyskull or power of cytorrak.

Adam_PoE
Originally posted by charlemagne9746
well, the purpose of this thread is to see if He-Man is storng enough to stop juggs momentum. Juggs is walkin' the other direction with his end of the rope before he-man begins to pull his end. it's basically what goober stated earlier. what is more powerful...power of greyskull or power of cytorrak.

The answer is still He-Man; it is the nature of his character to be as powerful as the objective requires.

Symmetric Chaos
HeMan.

Cain grabs the rope. Screams something about being unstoppable. And then runs straight at Adam.

Creshosk
Originally posted by Adam_PoE
The answer is still He-Man; it is the nature of his character to be as powerful as the objective requires. You're an unbiased point of veiw aren't you Skeletor?

Decay
Originally posted by darthgoober
This fight would actually come down to which is greater, the magic of Castle Greyskull or the power of Cyttorak so I won't make a call here due to a lack of evidence in that regard. However I would like to address one thing...


Thor's godblast DID stop Juggs. In fact it was pushing Juggs back until the ground collapsed under him.


i thought it momentarily pushed him back because he wasnt expecting something that powerful, and then he decided to use his full strength and walk against it, and thats when the ground caved. ill have to look it up again.

Adam_PoE
Originally posted by Creshosk
You're an unbiased point of veiw aren't you Skeletor?

I am not biased, just the un-official Masters of the Universe expert of KMC.

Ptr_Grifin
Originally posted by Adam_PoE
A tug-of-war begins from a stationary position. He-Man would have infinite strength before the tug-of-war begins. Juggernaut would have to build moment to even approach infinite inertia.

You realize infinite strength really doesn't matter in this situation? He-Man only weighs so much, and the ground can only support only so much force. Juggernaut's feet, I am assuming, cover more surface area and he also weighs more. So overall Juggernaut starts out with an advantage.

Don't most tug-o-war games start with slack in the rope?

Adam_PoE
Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
You realize infinite strength really doesn't matter in this situation? He-Man only weighs so much, and the ground can only support only so much force. Juggernaut's feet, I am assuming, cover more surface area and he also weighs more. So overall Juggernaut starts out with an advantage.

Don't most tug-o-war games start with slack in the rope?

Weight and surface area have nothing to do with it. A tug-of-war is a feat of strength.

Symmetric Chaos
Originally posted by Adam_PoE
Weight and surface area have nothing to do with it. A tug-of-war is a feat of strength.

Only in a world where physical laws apply selectively.

Ptr_Grifin
Originally posted by Adam_PoE
Weight and surface area have nothing to do with it. A tug-of-war is a feat of strength.

You don't really know what you are talking about. A 150 horsepower bulldozer can out pull a 500 horsepower Dodge Viper. The main reasons the bulldozer can out pull the viper, is because of the weight and that the dozer has tracks which cover more surface area, coupled with low end torque.

While strength does play a key role in this, there will be a point where it doesn't matter who is stronger.

I wasn't saying it didn't matter at all.

Da Pittman
Much of it comes down to who pulls first; He-Man has enough strength to pull Juggs off his feat which could count for a win if he went first as well as Juggs to He-Man. If they both pulled at the same moment then it would come down to whose magic is strong assuming that the ground could withstand the force. The respective weight and size plays very little role here because of the force that both are exerting, if both are perfectly matched than that would be a factor.

Ptr_Grifin
My main point is that Juggernaut is certainly strong enough to hold his own, if they start pulling at the same time. Both of them would instantly pull each other causing the ground to collapse beneath them, digging themselves in. But Juggernaut is bigger and should be able to pull He-man and the ground with him.

He-man could pull fast enough to straight up pull him out of the ground, but Juggs could do the same.

Adam_PoE
Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
You don't really know what you are talking about. A 150 horsepower bulldozer can out pull a 500 horsepower Dodge Viper. The main reasons the bulldozer can out pull the viper, is because of the weight and that the dozer has tracks which cover more surface area, coupled with low end torque.

While strength does play a key role in this, there will be a point where it doesn't matter who is stronger.

I wasn't saying it didn't matter at all.

You really do not know what you are talking about; there is a tremendous difference between two engines that when operating at maximum efficiency are within 350 horses of one another, and two characters, one of whom begins a feat with infinite strength, and the other who must build forward momentum to even approach infinite inertia.

He-Man begins the feat with infinite strength; the Juggernaut would not be able to budge, let alone build enough inertia to become unstoppable.

Ptr_Grifin
Originally posted by Adam_PoE
You really do not know what you are talking about; there is a tremendous difference between two engines that when operating at maximum efficiency are within 350 horses of one another, and two characters, one of whom begins a feat with infinite strength, and the other who must build forward momentum to even approach infinite inertia.

He-Man begins the feat with infinite strength; the Juggernaut would not be able to budge, let alone build enough inertia to become unstoppable.

You don't know what you are talking about. If you where to somehow put that Viper engine in the dozer it would be more powerful.

Both of them practically start out on equal ground. Another example would be a sumo wrestler and someone like Bruce Lee. Bruce Lee may be stronger and can punch much faster and harder, but he isn't going to win a tug-o-war match against someone who weighs 500 lbs +.

Besides you really are not taking into account the surroundings. He-Mans feet will be like a nail while the ground is the wood, and Juggernaut is the hammer. He-Man isn't lifting anything, he is pulling, which is far more different.

Infinite strength eventually doesn't make a difference without incredibly fast reflexes.

Badabing
Originally posted by charlemagne9746
He-Man vs Juggs. Juggs grabs his end of the rope and walks the other direction. Now, He-Man is as strong as he NEEDS to be...according to many people. If he needs to be strong enough to stop Juggs forward momentum, could he? It is said that nothin' can stop Juggernauts forward momentum. This is classic Juggernaut.

laughing

Just for arguments sake...let's say that this rope was given enhanced durability by the TOAA...so, the rope will not break under any circumstances. Okay, I don't know much about MOTU but here it goes.
The rope may be unbreakable buy what is He Man going to brace against in order to stop Juggy and start going forward?

The ground won't be enough to stop Juggy from moving.

Does He Man have super speed to speed blitz before Juggy starts moving and just drag him before he gets forward momentum?

Adam_PoE
Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
You don't know what you are talking about. If you where to somehow put that Viper engine in the dozer it would be more powerful.

Both of them practically start out on equal ground. Another example would be a sumo wrestler and someone like Bruce Lee. Bruce Lee may be stronger and can punch much faster and harder, but he isn't going to win a tug-o-war match against someone who weighs 500 lbs +.

Besides you really are not taking into account the surroundings. He-Mans feet will be like a nail while the ground is the wood, and Juggernaut is the hammer. He-Man isn't lifting anything, he is pulling, which is far more different.

Infinite strength eventually doesn't make a difference without incredibly fast reflexes.

No, you do not know what you are talking about. The point is that your analogy is false, because unlike the engines, not only is there is a greater power differential between He-Man and the Juggernaut, but the characters are not starting out on "equal ground." He-Man begins the feat infinitely stronger than Juggernaut. Hence, the Juggernaut would not be able to budge, let alone build enough momentum to become unstoppable.

Apolloknight
Originally posted by Adam_PoE
He-Man begins the feat infinitely stronger than Juggernaut.

So, he man starts with an infinite amount of strength?

Or limitless?

Ptr_Grifin
Originally posted by Adam_PoE
No, you do not know what you are talking about. The point is that your analogy is false, because unlike the engines, not only is there is a greater power differential between He-Man and the Juggernaut, but the characters are not starting out on "equal ground." He-Man begins the feat infinitely stronger than Juggernaut. Hence, the Juggernaut would not be able to budge, let alone build enough momentum to become unstoppable.

You do not know what you are talking about. You can't have infinite strength. You can have the potential for unlimited strength. Plus Juggernaut has never know to show a limit. So Juggs could start out far higher than He-Man does. And from what I have read on this board, He-man gets his strength as he needs it. So Juggs should start out better off.

Adam_PoE
Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
You can't have infinite strength. You can have the potential for unlimited strength.

According to whom?




Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
Plus Juggernaut has never know to show a limit.

Nor has He-Man.




Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
So Juggs could start out far higher than He-Man does.

A character who must build momentum to even approach infinite inertia does not begin on the same or greater level as a character who begins the challenge with infinite strength.




Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
And from what I have read on this board, He-man gets his strength as he needs it. So Juggs should start out better off.

His power adapts to whatever challenge he is facing. If the challenge is to stop an unstoppable object, then he has the power to stop an unstoppable object.

Superboy Prime
Wouldn't infinte and limitless be the same thing?

Apolloknight
Originally posted by Adam_PoE


A character who must build momentum to even approach infinite inertia does not begin on the same or greater level as a character who begins the challenge with infinite strength.




You cant have infinite strength, its impossible, no one does, not even Hulk, or omega, superman, sentry, thor, no one has infinite strength.

Do some research.

The inertia argument is getting old, Juggernaut doesn't have to build inertia to have a limitless amount of strength. The whole "unstoppable" power of his is something completely different from his strength, and has nothing to do with it, its a magical enchantment.

Juggernaut has a limitless amount of strength to start out with. At the same time, so does He-man.

To say who is going to start out stronger is up in the air, and my experiences with these things is it usually boils down to "who you like more".

However, in an attempt to be unbiased, if both have limitless strength, and they start out both tugging on the rope, tugs of wars between even people or groups of strength can go back and forth, however, once it starts to go in Juggs direction, there is nothing He-man can do to stop him, not because of Juggernauts strength, but because of his enchantment.

erm

Creshosk
Originally posted by Superboy Prime
Wouldn't infinte and limitless be the same thing? Not exactly.

Limtless might mean that thelimit has not been discovered and is more plausible that infinite strength which is nothing more than hyperbole.

Because anyone with infinite strength would be logically unable to hold back. As any portion of infinity is still infinity.

infinity/1 is infinity infinity/2 is infinity etc...

I'm surprised that noone has challenged Skeletor to prove this "infinite" strength claim of Skele- Er I mean Adam Prince of Eternia's claims on the infinite strength thing.

What he doesn't realize is that all it takes is a single step to enact the inertia enchantment.

oh and just so people are aware MotU are fair game under the new revised rules:

http://cyberstore.decepticon-matrix.com/heman_v3_issue2.jpg

Ptr_Grifin
Originally posted by Adam_PoE
According to whom?

You're idiot if you think someone or something can have infinite anything. He-Man has the potential for unlimited strength. That doesn't me he instantly has infinite strength. His strength has to climb.



Originally posted by Adam_PoE

Nor has He-Man.


I am making a point as to how Juggernaut can also fight back. I didn't say He-Man didn't have the potential for infinite strength.


Originally posted by Adam_PoE

A character who must build momentum to even approach infinite inertia does not begin on the same or greater level as a character who begins the challenge with infinite strength.

Apply that theory to He-Man having infinite strength. Also, Juggernaut is strong as hell to begin with, he will use those things called muscles.




Originally posted by Adam_PoE

His power adapts to whatever challenge he is facing. If the challenge is to stop an unstoppable object, then he has the power to stop an unstoppable object.

He will never be able to stop Juggernaut.

Adam_PoE
Originally posted by Apolloknight
You cant have infinite strength, its impossible, no one does, not even Hulk, or omega, superman, sentry, thor, no one has infinite strength.

Do some research.

Listing characters that do not have infinite strength does not prove that He-Man does not have infinite strength or that infinite strength is impossible.




Originally posted by Apolloknight
The inertia argument is getting old, Juggernaut doesn't have to build inertia to have a limitless amount of strength. The whole "unstoppable" power of his is something completely different from his strength, and has nothing to do with it, its a magical enchantment.

I am not addressing the strength of the Juggernaut; I have been addressing the unstoppable nature of the Juggernaut.




Originally posted by Apolloknight
Juggernaut has a limitless amount of strength to start out with. At the same time, so does He-man.

To say who is going to start out stronger is up in the air, and my experiences with these things is it usually boils down to "who you like more".

However, in an attempt to be unbiased, if both have limitless strength, and they start out both tugging on the rope, tugs of wars between even people or groups of strength can go back and forth, however, once it starts to go in Juggs direction, there is nothing He-man can do to stop him, not because of Juggernauts strength, but because of his enchantment.

erm

He-Man begins the feat with infinite strength. For Juggernaut to overcome infinite strength he must have infinite inertia. The Juggernaut does not begin the feat with infinite inertia. For him to even approach infinite inertia, he must build forward momentum.

In short, the Juggernaut must have infinite inertia to overcome infinite strength, but he cannot approach infinite inertia because he cannot overcome infinite strength.

Adam_PoE
Originally posted by Creshosk
I'm surprised that noone has challenged Skeletor to prove this "infinite" strength claim of Skele- Er I mean Adam Prince of Eternia's claims on the infinite strength thing.

What he doesn't realize is that all it takes is a single step to enact the inertia enchantment.

oh and just so people are aware MotU are fair game under the new revised rules:

http://cyberstore.decepticon-matrix.com/heman_v3_issue2.jpg

The MVCreations Masters of the Universe comic is in the same continuity, so there are no "revised rules."

Ptr_Grifin
Originally posted by Adam_PoE
He-Man begins the feat with infinite strength. For Juggernaut to overcome infinite strength he must have infinite inertia. The Juggernaut does not begin the feat with infinite inertia. For him to even approach infinite inertia, he must build forward momentum.


You don't understand the word "infinite". When will He-Man obtain his infinite strength? Never, you can't obtain it.

And He-Man wouldn't start out with a massive amount of strength. Like you said, he adapts.

Adam_PoE
Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
You're idiot if you think someone or something can have infinite anything.

Simply stating that a character cannot have infinite strength does not prove that he does not.




Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
He-Man has the potential for unlimited strength. That doesn't me he instantly has infinite strength. His strength has to climb.

That may be how the powers of some characters operate, e.g. the Incredible Hulk, but it is not how the powers of He-Man operate.




Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
I am making a point as to how Juggernaut can also fight back. I didn't say He-Man didn't have the potential for infinite strength.

I am simply indicating that is true of He-Man as well.




Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
Apply that theory to He-Man having infinite strength.

That may be how the powers of theJuggernaut operate, but it is not how the powers of He-Man operate.




Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
Also, Juggernaut is strong as hell to begin with, he will use those things called muscles.

So will He-Man.




Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
He will never be able to stop Juggernaut.

The will be nothing to stop as the Juggernaut will never start to begin with.

Creshosk
Originally posted by Adam_PoE
The MVCreations Masters of the Universe comic is in the same continuity, so there are no "revised rules." Umm.. The Vs Forum just revised its rules. its allowing things only if they have a comic and don't fit in the other sections. I posted the comic to show that it has a comic. ermm

Adam_PoE
Originally posted by Creshosk
Umm.. The Vs Forum just revised its rules. its allowing things only if they have a comic and don't fit in the other sections. I posted the comic to show that it has a comic. ermm

It has several comics.

Creshosk
Originally posted by Adam_PoE
It has several comics. Yup, but we only need to show that it has at least one for MotU to be able to not be banned from the Comic versus forum.

Da Pittman

h1a8
I figured it out.
He-man would win. This is how.
Let's assume Juggs can't be stopped while in motion and that the ground cannot be broken as well.

Juggs doesn't have infinite strength (this is a fact). So his grip on the rope would be limited. The essiential needed mystical force that He-man pulls with combined with the unstoppability of Juggs would force the rope outta Juggs hands, for he isn't strong enough to hold on.

darthgoober
I'm still not making a call here, I just thought I'd answer this...

Originally posted by Badabing
Does He Man have super speed to speed blitz before Juggy starts moving and just drag him before he gets forward momentum?

Yeah He-Man has Super Speed too...
Dodging laser fire, and some impressive acrobatics
http://img65.imageshack.us/my.php?image=s1uu6.jpg
http://img253.imageshack.us/my.php?image=s2mm9.jpg

A mind-numbing display of speed as he deflects multiple laser beams simultaneously
http://img403.imageshack.us/my.php?image=s3fr6.jpg

Some impressive skill & acrobatics, and he deflects a blast from Skeletor back at him
http://img185.imageshack.us/my.php?image=12eb9.jpg
http://img441.imageshack.us/my.php?image=13jw7.jpg

Some skillful maneuvering on a series of rock pillars that were crumbling into lava
http://img444.imageshack.us/my.php?image=18nx4.jpg

h1a8
The thread says that Juggs gets a head start by grabbing the rope and then moving forward then after He-man grabs the rope. So speed is moot here.

I already proved that He-man wins in two posts before this.
Please look at it.

Ptr_Grifin
Originally posted by h1a8
The thread says that Juggs gets a head start by grabbing the rope and then moving forward then after He-man grabs the rope. So speed is moot here.

I already proved that He-man wins in two posts before this.
Please look at it.

You really didn't prove anything. Plus it isn't fact that Juggs doesn't have an unlimited supply of power to draw from.

h1a8
Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
You really didn't prove anything. Plus it isn't fact that Juggs doesn't have an unlimited supply of power to draw from.

I did prove it. Panel and not interviews is the only proof acceptable here. It never was on panel that Juggs is able to draw more strength.
Thus one can't say such things as they are true. Second, even if is true then one must also prove how fast can he achieve more strength (or at what rate) and is this rate faster than He-man's rate (which is highly doubtful).

Ptr_Grifin
Originally posted by h1a8
I did prove it. Panel and not interviews is the only proof acceptable here. It never was on panel that Juggs is able to draw more strength.
Thus one can't say such things as they are true. Second, even if is true then one must also prove how fast can he achieve more strength (or at what rate) and is this rate faster than He-man's rate (which is highly doubtful).

You still didn't prove anything. You just said, even "if it is true". Juggernaut has never shown a limit on panel or in any interviews/stat books. He is always been said to have immeasurable strength. That doesn't mean he has a limit.

In his first fight with Hulk, Juggs claimed to get stronger. Other times he was said to get stronger with hate. Then you have the 8th Day event, which is Juggernaut utilizing more of his power through focus. This is the way he was supposed to be. But due to him getting the power early he was never able to learn how to use it, at the time as the other avatars did.

h1a8
Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
You still didn't prove anything. You just said, even "if it is true". Juggernaut has never shown a limit on panel or in any interviews/stat books. He is always been said to have immeasurable strength. That doesn't mean he has a limit.

In his first fight with Hulk, Juggs claimed to get stronger. Other times he was said to get stronger with hate. Then you have the 8th Day event, which is Juggernaut utilizing more of his power through focus. This is the way he was supposed to be. But due to him getting the power early he was never able to learn how to use it, at the time as the other avatars did.

A billion trillion characters have immeasurable (or incalculable) strength. That doesn't mean that they don't have a limit or that no one is stronger.
Faulty reasoning indeed.

I get stronger with hate (who don't?). That doesn't mean I can get stronger indefinitely. More faulty reasoning.

And your own post proves you wrong (Please reread it).
It was true that 8th day Juggernaut was stronger. But whether or not he called on this extra strength or it was involuntarily granted to him (I think the latter was proven on panel though) is entirely moot. For He-man is faster and this is a tug of war contest thus He-man will be stronger faster than Juggs can be. This makes all the difference. For the rope is fairly short which will cause it to take nanoseconds for it to clear Jugg's hand.

Ptr_Grifin
Originally posted by h1a8
A billion trillion characters have immeasurable (or incalculable) strength. That doesn't mean that they don't have a limit or that no one is stronger.
Faulty reasoning indeed.

I get stronger with hate (who don't?). That doesn't mean I can get stronger indefinitely. More faulty reasoning.

And your own post proves you wrong (Please reread it).
It was true that 8th day Juggernaut was stronger. But whether or not he called on this extra strength or it was involuntarily granted to him (I think the latter was proven on panel though) is entirely moot. For He-man is faster and this is a tug of war contest thus He-man will be stronger faster than Juggs can be. This makes all the difference. For the rope is fairly short which will cause it to take nanoseconds for it to clear Jugg's hand.

Actually you are wrong. My own post doesn't prove me wrong, go back and reread it. No where have a out right said Juggernaut has infinite strength. I have said he hasn't shown a limit and therefore there is a chance he has unlimited strength. Nor did I say because he has immeasurable strength that it was infinite. I gave examples of him gaining strength.

Plus you have the marvel editors who have said he has unlimited power to draw on.

h1a8
Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
Actually you are wrong. My own post doesn't prove me wrong, go back and reread it. No where have a out right said Juggernaut has infinite strength. I have said he hasn't shown a limit and therefore there is a chance he has unlimited strength. Nor did I say because he has immeasurable strength that it was infinite. I gave examples of him gaining strength.

Plus you have the marvel editors who have said he has unlimited power to draw on.


First, remember when I said that on panel things and not interviews is the only proof acceptable here. The reason why is that many writers may have ideas about a character but that writer(s) can change their mind(s) or another writer(s) can think differently. But if they put in on panel then it is set in stone (there is no going back). So opinions, even from the writers, hold absolutely no water here because nothing is set in stone until it appears on panel.

Second, your post did prove you wrong. Who said that you said he has infinite strength (I know what you meant)? I implied no such thing. There is a fine difference between unlimited strength and the potential for unlimited strength (and we're assuming Hulk and Juggs has the latter). Also, you implied that since Juggs can draw more strength unlimitedly then there is no one stronger (since he might not have a limit), this contradicts when you showed (implied) that 8th day Juggs was stronger and thus proving he has a limit (at any given time that is). That is why I said one must also prove how fast can he achieve more strength (or at what rate) and is that rate faster than He-man's rate (which is a no). For Juggs to not lose this contest then he has only a nanosecond (which is far beyond his ability to react in) in order to increase his strength beyond He-man's (because that is how long it would take for the rope to slip from his hands).

Hannibal-Lector
Juggy as classic didnt have a limit as stated by marvel in greenmail, Juggy FELT that he was stronger in 8th day form, so basically he just felt better.... in trion form he smashed through demensions which doesnt really have too much to do with physical energy rather mystical energy, IE other powers of Cyttorak

Ptr_Grifin
Originally posted by h1a8
First, remember when I said that on panel things and not interviews is the only proof acceptable here. The reason why is that many writers may have ideas about a character but that writer(s) can change their mind(s) or another writer(s) can think differently. But if they put in on panel then it is set in stone (there is no going back). So opinions, even from the writers, hold absolutely no water here because nothing is set in stone until it appears on panel.

Second, your post did prove you wrong. Who said that you said he has infinite strength (I know what you meant)? I implied no such thing. There is a fine difference between unlimited strength and the potential for unlimited strength (and we're assuming Hulk and Juggs has the latter). Also, you implied that since Juggs can draw more strength unlimitedly then there is no one stronger (since he might not have a limit), this contradicts when you showed (implied) that 8th day Juggs was stronger and thus proving he has a limit (at any given time that is). That is why I said one must also prove how fast can he achieve more strength (or at what rate) and is that rate faster than He-man's rate (which is a no). For Juggs to not lose this contest then he has only a nanosecond (which is far beyond his ability to react in) in order to increase his strength beyond He-man's (because that is how long it would take for the rope to slip from his hands).

My post didn't prove me wrong. I never said 8th Day Juggs had a limit. Where are you getting that from. And it isn't stated which side can gain strength faster.

Juggs is strong enough to hold onto that rope long enough for the ground He-Man is standing on to give way to his own power. So basically He-man could pull himself out of his own foot holdings.

The main debate could be if He-Man could gain strength fast enough to pull something like that off. I do agree with the "who can gain strength faster" argument you put forth. I never said anything against it.

There is no line between infinite strength and having the potential for it. There is only potential for unlimited strength. Answer this question, When will He-Man obtain infinite strength? Never. The only thing that could happen is that his strength will just keep rising, and even then he is limited by his own life span.

Also is it stated that opinions for the writers hold no water in the rules?



Most of this contracts itself or doesn't make much sense. There is no "implying" that 8th day is stronger. Thor admitted it and was about to be killed. And nowhere in that comic is Juggs struggling with anything, or implying that he has a limit. I don't know what your ranting about there.

Adam_PoE
Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
There is no line between infinite strength and having the potential for it. There is only potential for unlimited strength.

There is quite a difference between beginning a feat with infinite strength, and beginning a feat with the potential to approach infinite inertia. How many times must this be explained to you?




Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
Answer this question, When will He-Man obtain infinite strength? Never.

Before the feat begins. How many times must this be explained to you?




Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
The only thing that could happen is that his strength will just keep rising, and even then he is limited by his own life span.

Again, that may be how the powers of some characters operate, e.g. the Incredible Hulk, but it is not how the powers of He-Man operate. How many times must this be explained to you?

Ptr_Grifin
Originally posted by Adam_PoE
There is quite a difference between beginning a feat with infinite strength, and beginning a feat with the potential to approach infinite inertia. How many times must this be explained to you?

Before the feat begins. How many times must this be explained to you?


Again, that may be how the powers of some characters operate, e.g. the Incredible Hulk, but it is not how the powers of He-Man operate. How many times must this be explained to you?

There isn't a difference.

How many times does it have to be explained to you.

You really don't understand the word infinite.

Edit: I have noticed that there are alot of post on this forum that say his strength is based on need, so it in turn isn't infinite, he only has as much as needed. So if need be he has the potential for unlimited strength, to overcome his opponent. And I can't find a site that says he has inifinite strength from the get go.

Adam_PoE

Adam_PoE
Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
I have noticed that there are alot of post on this forum that say his strength is based on need, so it in turn isn't infinite, he only has as much as needed.

His need for the feat in question is infinite strength.

Ptr_Grifin
Originally posted by Adam_PoE
His need for the feat in question is infinite strength.

Does He-Man ever struggle? Also, could you post a scan saying he has infinite strength from the get go?

h1a8
Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
My post didn't prove me wrong. I never said 8th Day Juggs had a limit. Where are you getting that from. And it isn't stated which side can gain strength faster.

Juggs is strong enough to hold onto that rope long enough for the ground He-Man is standing on to give way to his own power. So basically He-man could pull himself out of his own foot holdings.

The main debate could be if He-Man could gain strength fast enough to pull something like that off. I do agree with the "who can gain strength faster" argument you put forth. I never said anything against it.

There is no line between infinite strength and having the potential for it. There is only potential for unlimited strength. Answer this question, When will He-Man obtain infinite strength? Never. The only thing that could happen is that his strength will just keep rising, and even then he is limited by his own life span.

Also is it stated that opinions for the writers hold no water in the rules?



Most of this contracts itself or doesn't make much sense. There is no "implying" that 8th day is stronger. Thor admitted it and was about to be killed. And nowhere in that comic is Juggs struggling with anything, or implying that he has a limit. I don't know what your ranting about there.

I think we are misunderstanding each other here. First, you are assuming that I am thinking you are confusing infinite strength. I am not!
"Infinite strength" didn't come out of my mouth (post) once. So why are you bringing it up. I am a mathematician. And we both easily know the difference between infinite strength and the potential for limitless strength. For the potential for unlimited strength either means the potential to have infinite strength at one time or the ability to increase one's strength beyond any limit (but never at any one time having infinite strength). We both agree that Juggs and He-man have the latter and not the former (with Juggs this is an assumption though).

Second, you are thinking I was saying that you were implying 8th day Juggs has a limit. I know you didn't say or imply such things. (I didn't misunderstand you here). In your post you were implying that 8th day Juggs was stronger than regular Juggs. Were you not? And if so, doesn't that prove that reg Juggs has a limit suprenum (since he's bounded above by 8th day Juggs).

Third, it was already mentioned much earlier that the ground would give way. But the thread maker then assigned (by implication) that the ground was indestructible just like the rope. Otherwise this thread would have been over a long time ago.

Fourth, you fail to understand how long Juggs would have to react in order to summon (call upon) more strength while the rope is slipping. Less than a nanosecond is the time he needs to react in. And it is well established that Juggs has no such reaction or thinking speed. So the rope would slip from his hands before he would even know it.

Finally, no!, it is not stated in the rules about the opinion of writers holding no water. I didn't even imply this.

But look below at these (you don't have to answer them for they all are moot):

1. Is it possible for a writer to change his mind about a power or ability of a character before they write about them? The answer is yes.

2. Is it possible that later (or current) writers have different opinions about a character that previous writers had? The answer is yes.

3. Should popular (or majority) opinion hold water? No, since the minority opinion could actually be (or have been) the writers of Juggernaut?

But whether or not Juggs can gain more strength through calling upon it is entirely moot when confronted with the fact that Juggs has proven to have slower than nanosecond reaction and thinking times.

h1a8
Originally posted by Hannibal-Lector
Juggy as classic didnt have a limit as stated by marvel in greenmail, Juggy FELT that he was stronger in 8th day form, so basically he just felt better.... in trion form he smashed through demensions which doesnt really have too much to do with physical energy rather mystical energy, IE other powers of Cyttorak

Marvel stated no such thing. It was talked about that it is popular opinion that he could call upon more strength and thus has the potential for unlimited strength.
This is a big difference. For not having a limit at one time means to have infinite strength at one time. And Juggs never had infinite strength at one time, especially since it has took him a significant amount of time to bust out of being trapped many times. If he had infinite strength he could have busted out of everything he came across almost instantaneously.

Apolloknight
Do people in this thread truly understand to concept of infinity?

Ptr_Grifin
Originally posted by h1a8
I think we are misunderstanding each other here. First, you are assuming that I am thinking you are confusing infinite strength. I am not!
"Infinite strength" didn't come out of my mouth (post) once. So why are you bringing it up. I am a mathematician. And we both easily know the difference between infinite strength and the potential for limitless strength. For the potential for unlimited strength either means the potential to have infinite strength at one time or the ability to increase one's strength beyond any limit (but never at any one time having infinite strength). We both agree that Juggs and He-man have the latter and not the former (with Juggs this is an assumption though).

Second, you are thinking I was saying that you were implying 8th day Juggs has a limit. I know you didn't say or imply such things. (I didn't misunderstand you here). In your post you were implying that 8th day Juggs was stronger than regular Juggs. Were you not? And if so, doesn't that prove that reg Juggs has a limit suprenum (since he's bounded above by 8th day Juggs).


Okay I may have mixed up your post and the Skeletor guys post.

Imagine the analogy like this, Classic Juggs is to Savage Hulk while 8th Day Juggs is to WWH. Just an analogy as of to why someone can be weaker and still be able to raise their strength.

Still you are going out on a whim with the whole rope slippage thing. Juggs Surprised Angle and Cyclops when he grabbed Angle out of the air, neither were excepting this (first appearance). So his reflexes are not all that slow.



I don't see where he set that rule, or implied it. So if that rule wasn't in place would you agree with me?

nvrbeenwthagirl
Who has the more powerful magic? grey Skull or Cyttorak? That is the question that decides this battle.

Dgw2007
Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
Who has the more powerful magic? grey Skull or Cyttorak? That is the question that decides this battle. yes that is true

h1a8
Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin

I don't see where he set that rule, or implied it. So if that rule wasn't in place would you agree with me?

Yes I agree totally.
I think the rule was implicated when several posts tried to point out that the ground would give way, but the thread maker and others ignored it as if they are assuming the ground is indestructible. Maybe that is not an implication but I'm pretty sure if the thread maker assigned the rope to be unbreakable then he would want the ground to be also (if it would make a difference).

Adam_PoE
Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
Who has the more powerful magic? grey Skull or Cyttorak? That is the question that decides this battle.

Essentially, the argument is whether a character whose power is to be nigh-unstoppable, i.e. not truly unstoppable as he has been stopped by characters of sufficient strength in the past, can be stopped by a character whose power is to be able to accomplish whatever task he is presented with, i.e. whose primary power in this challenge is to be sufficiently strong to stop a nigh-unstoppable opponent.

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