Best Songwriters of All Time

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BobbyD
Thoughts? confused

2D_MASTER

BobbyD
Interesting response, 2D. I had forgotten completely about classical music. However, my intention is for the rock/pop/R&B/soul/hip-hop era.

2D_MASTER
Originally posted by BobbyD
Interesting response, 2D. I had forgotten completely about classical music. However, my intention is for the rock/pop/R&B/soul/hip-hop era.

Ok cool because that narrows it down tons. I'll get back to you on the best "rock/pop/R&B/soul/hip-hop era" songwriterS, if I think of SOME.

EDITED ^

BobbyD
Originally posted by 2D_MASTER
Ok cool because that narrows it down tons. I'll get back to you on the best "rock/pop/R&B/soul/hip-hop era" songwriter, if I think of one.

Psst..songwriter/s.

...can be plural. wink

D00m
many to name, but my personal favorite is Elliott Smith.

Alpha Centauri
Prince, Sufjan Stevens, Jeff Buckley, Thom Yorke, Rivers Cuomo.

-AC

Funkadelic
Prince & Jimi Hendrix



(BTW Alpha Centauri, I Guess U Digged Planet earth? Love ur signature)

Alpha Centauri
Yeah, it's a brilliant album.

-AC

BobbyD
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Prince

-AC

..most definitely belongs in the team photo, if not front and center.

Victor Von Doom
Prince is the best songwriter, by far.

Funkadelic
I Have 631 songs of his in my Itunes.
A fraction of what he has written.

He definately is the greatest.

Can 't wait to see him live on the 28th.

D00m
Great picks with Buckley, Sufjan, and of course Prince.

Another songwriter I really like, who hasn't been mentioned, is Andrew Bird.

Funkadelic
Stevie Wonder is great too.

2D_MASTER
Frank Zappa says me.

Victor Von Doom
Zappa is a good songwriter. He's a great writer of music, though, moreso.

2D_MASTER
Originally posted by Victor Von Doom
Zappa is a good songwriter. He's a great writer of music, though, moreso.

What's the difference?

Victor Von Doom
Originally posted by 2D_MASTER
What's the difference?

Well, you wouldn't really call Mozart a good songwriter.

2D_MASTER
Originally posted by Victor Von Doom
Well, you wouldn't really call Mozart a good songwriter.

Well that depends on if you compare Frank Zappa with Mozart... I personally do not. Besides "songwriter" to me is a really ambiguous term, but the thread starter clarified what he meant.

Victor Von Doom
Originally posted by 2D_MASTER
Well that depends on if you compare Frank Zappa with Mozart... I personally do not. Besides "songwriter" to me is a really ambiguous term, but the thread starter clarified what he meant.

I do, because he writes music as well as more strict 'songs'. It's not to do with quality, but form.

I think songwriting refers to writing short-ish songs that are perfectly realised, rather than longer passages of music or extended songs.

That's how I interpret it, anyway.

Funkadelic
Yeah, Mozart is a composer.

Not a songwriter.

BobbyD
Originally posted by Victor Von Doom
I do, because he writes music as well as more strict 'songs'. It's not to do with quality, but form.

I think songwriting refers to writing short-ish songs that are perfectly realised, rather than longer passages of music or extended songs.

That's how I interpret it, anyway.

...as was my intention. But, I left it open ended, and as such leaves it open to interpretation.

yvonnekarate
Jewel, Robbie Williams, Marit Larsen and Sondre Lerche.

Regards, Yvonne

Funkadelic
Robbie Williams?

Alpha Centauri
Originally posted by yvonnekarate
Jewel, Robbie Williams, Marit Larsen and Sondre Lerche.

Regards, Yvonne

Get out, now.

-AC

Victor Von Doom
Originally posted by yvonnekarate
Jewel, Robbie Williams, Marit Larsen and Sondre Lerche.

Regards, Yvonne

Robbie Williams doesn't even write his own songs, and they're terrible in any case.

Double failure to make the grade.

KMC_Drifter
Songwriting, as in lyrics? I'd say Steve Wariner, Alan Jackson, Eric Clapton, and Trent Tomlinson to name a few that I really respect.

Alpha Centauri
Lyrics isn't songwriting.

It's...lyricism.

-AC

ESB -1138
Billy Joel is by far the best songwriter.

2D_MASTER
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Get out, now.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Prince...

-AC

Get the f*ck out of here.

Alpha Centauri
It's funny, when anybody asks you to prove anything of value, you crap your pants, yet the one thing you continually provide proof for without request, is your complete musical ignorance and idiocy.

The idea that you believe Prince doesn't belong in this thread is a belief that will get you laughed at far more harder than anyone would question Prince.

-AC

2D_MASTER

Alpha Centauri

2D_MASTER

Alpha Centauri

2D_MASTER
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Yes, and that's all very nice, 2D. You should be very proud.



What...? Songwriter = someone who writes songs. If you don't write songs, how are you a songwriter?

Do you genuinely want to get into this? There are probably people here who DON'T think you're a total idiot, so if you wish to remove all doubt, we can continue.

How can you be a songwriter if you do not write songs? I'm curious.



No, that's me telling you why you'd have been better off not picking someone who is ACTUALLY a songwriter to counter my telling her to get out for naming someone who isn't a songwriter. Robbie Williams isn't, so she was wrong. In retaliation and defense, you said the same to me...regarding Prince...who is an actual songwriter. On top of that, you automatically assumed I was referring to her mentioning Jewel.

I think Jewel is a horrible songwriter, but she's a songwriter nonetheless, and if Yvonne choose to name her as her choice, that's fine by me. Robbie Williams isn't actually a songwriter, though.

Again, you seem to think who is and who isn't a songwriter is subjective. Maybe you can tell us why. Thought the profession or trade of being a "songwriter" seems pretty self-explanatory to me. Apparantly, though, you don't need to write songs to be one. So please, go on.

-AC

Dolt stop TRY to cover your ass. You responded to her whole post saying "get out". Be more specific next time. I typed "jewel" to avoid typing out "Jewel, Roby Williams...blah blah" in my responses. Either way, you're the one who typed a simple "get out". Just stop trying to cover your barse arse and get back to topic already.

(hopefully you won't be so quick to tell somebody to "get out"wink

Alpha Centauri
Originally posted by 2D_MASTER
Dolt stop TRY to cover your ass. You responded to her whole post saying "get out". Be more specific next time. I typed "jewel" to avoid typing out "Jewel, Roby Williams...blah blah" in my responses. Either way, you're the one who typed a simple "get out". Just stop trying to cover your barse arse and get back to topic already.

(hopefully you won't be so quick to tell somebody to "get out"wink

You were the one who dived into it and picked the wrong person, you are the one who should stop assuming. Be less idiotic next time, be less lazy next time. I'm not responsible for your interpretations. You typed it because you're a trolling fool who, far from caring about what I'd said, simply wanted an argument and once again got shown up. I'm not trying to cover anything, you were wrong, you made stupid and incorrect points and I exposed them as always, causing you to wanting to scurry back on topic, which I suspect you'll then not consider "relevant".

I love how now you're entirely dodging everything else, but I'll afford you the quick escape this time and move on;

Civil question; how can you be a songwriter if you don't write songs?

-AC

2D_MASTER

Alpha Centauri

Bardock42
I also feel that the thread should only apply to people who write songs.

Except for that AC sucks....usually Prince.

ESB -1138
I believe everyone here fails to see that Billy Joel is #1!!!!!! Come on look at hits great hits; Piano Man, It's Still Rock and Roll, Tell Her About It, Uptown Girl, The Longest Time, Don't Ask Me Why, Captain Jack, We Didn't Start the Fire, And So It Goes, She's Got a Way, She's Always a Woman, Only the Good Die Young, and much much more.

Alpha Centauri
Do you honestly want to get into a Billy Joel Vs Prince hits discussion?

Really?

Think about it.

-AC

ESB -1138
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Do you honestly want to get into a Billy Joel Vs Prince hits discussion?

Really?

Think about it.

-AC

Bring it on.

Bardock42
Originally posted by ESB -1138
Bring it on. Advertisment to other forums is not allowed.

ESB -1138
Originally posted by Bardock42
Advertisment to other forums is not allowed.

What does "Bring it on" have to do with anything?

Skeets
The Judgment Hall
Just remove the * from the url to enter.

Alpha Centauri

ESB -1138
Top 40 for Billy:
She's Got A Way (4)
Piano Man (25)
The Entertainer (34)
Just the Way You Are (3)
Movin' Out (17)
Only the Good Die Young (24)
She's Always a Woman (17)
My Life (3)
Big Shot (14)
Honesty (24)
It's Still Rock and Roll to Me (1)
Don't Ask me Why (19)
You May be Right (7)
Sometimes a Fantasy (36)
Allentown (17)
Pressure (28)
Tell Her About It (1)
Uptown Girl (3)
An Innocent Man (10)
Leave a Tender Moment Alone (27)
The Longest Time (14)
Keeping the Faith (18)
A Matter of Trust (3)
Modern Woman (10)
This is the Time (18)
We Didn't Start the Fire (1)
And So It Goes (37)
I Go to Extremes (6)
The Downeaster "Alexa" (18)
The River of Dreams (3)
All About Soul (29)
You're Only Human (9)
The Night is Still Young (37)


According to the RIAA, he is the sixth best selling artist in the United States. Joel had Top 10 hits in the '70s, '80s, and '90s, is a six-time Grammy Award winner and has sold in excess of 150 million records worldwide.

In fact despite Prince have FAR more albums than Billy Joel, Billy has vastly outsold Prince. He was inducted into the Songwriter's Hall of Fame (Class of 1992), the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame (Class of 1999), and the Long Island Music Hall of Fame (Class of 2006). The only artist EVER to have 12 sold out shows at Madison Square Garden. Has 4 number 1 hit albums, 3 number 1 hit singles. Over 30 singles in the Top 40 written by Billy Joel alone. In the Top 100 he has over 50 singles in that area.

Despite having never graduated from high school due to a missed exam, Joel has been presented with multiple honorary doctorates:

Doctor from Berklee College of Music (1993)
Doctor of Humane Letters from Hofstra University (1997)
Doctor of Music from Southampton College (2000)
Doctor of Fine Arts from Syracuse University (2006)
High School Diploma awarded 25 years after he left by the School Board.

Disney Channel Awards Kca Awards Joel was also named MusiCares Person of the Year for 2002, an award given each year at the same time as the Grammy Awards. At the dinner honoring Joel, various artists performed versions of his songs including Nelly Furtado, Stevie Wonder, Jon Bon Jovi, Diana Krall, Rob Thomas, and Natalie Cole. He was inducted into the Long Island Music Hall of Fame on Oct 15, 2006. In 2005, Billy Joel was put in the Hollywood Walk of Fame.

Joel was also the singer of the National Anthem at Super Bowl XXIII and Super Bowl XLI, both of which were played in Miami. He is the first singer ever to sing the National Anthem in two Super Bowls.

Billy Joel lyrics have been found on Asian soap and disinfectant packaging soap packet and disinfectant. He has a banner in the rafters of the Times Union Center, Nassau Coliseum, Madison Square Garden, Wachovia Center, and Hartford Civic Center in Hartford.

Also for his play Movin' Out
2003 Tony Award nomination
Tony Award for Best Choreography - Twyla Tharp (WINNER)
Tony Award for Best Orchestrations - Billy Joel, Stuart Malina (WINNERS)

2003 Theatre World Award
John Selya (WINNER)

2003 Drama Desk Award nominations
Drama Desk Award for Outstanding Choreography - Twyla Tharp (WINNER)

2003 Astaire Awards
Astaire Award for Best Choreographer - Twyla Tharp (WINNER)
Astaire Award for Best Male Dancer - John Selya (WINNER)
Astaire Award for Best Female Dancer - Elizabeth Parkinson (WINNER)


"Back In The USSR" was released as the single off this album, ending Joel's record-setting streak of 39 Billboard top-40 singles from the start of a career written by the artist who performed it which he still holds to this day. Billy is the better song writer. Just because someone writes more songs doesn't make him better.

2D_MASTER
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
I don't need to claim anything, you are all the proof I need.

I didn't need to explain myself, you made poor assumptions, wrong claims, stupid statements and when I asked you to answer a question based on one such retarded claim, oh look, it's time for you to leave, as it always is when I ask you something you're too embarassed to answer. You haven't got the time to explain how you can be a songwriter without writing songs, but you've got the time to be abusive and reply as a troll would, most odd.

You obviously don't like Prince, so you said what you did whilst assuming that I told her to get out because she likes people who aren't to my taste. I didn't, I told her to get out cos she mentioned someone who is shit (SUBJECTIVE.) and not a songwriter (OBJECTIVE.). You then tried telling me I thought I had the right to decide who is and isn't a songwriter, then when asked how Robbie Williams would count, not writing any songs, you shy away like a coward because you can't answer, you're scared to answer and you know it.

You are a very silly boy who blames everyone else for his idiocy.

I don't need to "cover" anything, you prove everything I say about you correct.

-AC

I will now quit trying to reason with you. I've already told you what you must do to move this conversation forward... you refuse to. Now, it's over... go slooshy some Prince, aficionado.

Alpha Centauri
Originally posted by 2D_MASTER
I will now quit trying to reason with you. I've already told you what you must do to move this conversation forward... you refuse to. Now, it's over... go slooshy some Prince, aficionado.

What makes you a songwriter if you don't write songs?

If you can't or won't answer that, leave the thread or contribute something positive.

Originally posted by ESB -1138
Top 40 for Billy:
She's Got A Way (4)
Piano Man (25)
The Entertainer (34)
Just the Way You Are (3)
Movin' Out (17)
Only the Good Die Young (24)
She's Always a Woman (17)
My Life (3)
Big Shot (14)
Honesty (24)
It's Still Rock and Roll to Me (1)
Don't Ask me Why (19)
You May be Right (7)
Sometimes a Fantasy (36)
Allentown (17)
Pressure (28)
Tell Her About It (1)
Uptown Girl (3)
An Innocent Man (10)
Leave a Tender Moment Alone (27)
The Longest Time (14)
Keeping the Faith (18)
A Matter of Trust (3)
Modern Woman (10)
This is the Time (18)
We Didn't Start the Fire (1)
And So It Goes (37)
I Go to Extremes (6)
The Downeaster "Alexa" (18)
The River of Dreams (3)
All About Soul (29)
You're Only Human (9)
The Night is Still Young (37)


According to the RIAA, he is the sixth best selling artist in the United States. Joel had Top 10 hits in the '70s, '80s, and '90s, is a six-time Grammy Award winner and has sold in excess of 150 million records worldwide.

In fact despite Prince have FAR more albums than Billy Joel, Billy has vastly outsold Prince. He was inducted into the Songwriter's Hall of Fame (Class of 1992), the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame (Class of 1999), and the Long Island Music Hall of Fame (Class of 2006). The only artist EVER to have 12 sold out shows at Madison Square Garden. Has 4 number 1 hit albums, 3 number 1 hit singles. Over 30 singles in the Top 40 written by Billy Joel alone. In the Top 100 he has over 50 singles in that area.

Despite having never graduated from high school due to a missed exam, Joel has been presented with multiple honorary doctorates:

Doctor from Berklee College of Music (1993)
Doctor of Humane Letters from Hofstra University (1997)
Doctor of Music from Southampton College (2000)
Doctor of Fine Arts from Syracuse University (2006)
High School Diploma awarded 25 years after he left by the School Board.

Disney Channel Awards Kca Awards Joel was also named MusiCares Person of the Year for 2002, an award given each year at the same time as the Grammy Awards. At the dinner honoring Joel, various artists performed versions of his songs including Nelly Furtado, Stevie Wonder, Jon Bon Jovi, Diana Krall, Rob Thomas, and Natalie Cole. He was inducted into the Long Island Music Hall of Fame on Oct 15, 2006. In 2005, Billy Joel was put in the Hollywood Walk of Fame.

Joel was also the singer of the National Anthem at Super Bowl XXIII and Super Bowl XLI, both of which were played in Miami. He is the first singer ever to sing the National Anthem in two Super Bowls.

Billy Joel lyrics have been found on Asian soap and disinfectant packaging soap packet and disinfectant. He has a banner in the rafters of the Times Union Center, Nassau Coliseum, Madison Square Garden, Wachovia Center, and Hartford Civic Center in Hartford.

Also for his play Movin' Out
2003 Tony Award nomination
Tony Award for Best Choreography - Twyla Tharp (WINNER)
Tony Award for Best Orchestrations - Billy Joel, Stuart Malina (WINNERS)

2003 Theatre World Award
John Selya (WINNER)

2003 Drama Desk Award nominations
Drama Desk Award for Outstanding Choreography - Twyla Tharp (WINNER)

2003 Astaire Awards
Astaire Award for Best Choreographer - Twyla Tharp (WINNER)
Astaire Award for Best Male Dancer - John Selya (WINNER)
Astaire Award for Best Female Dancer - Elizabeth Parkinson (WINNER)


"Back In The USSR" was released as the single off this album, ending Joel's record-setting streak of 39 Billboard top-40 singles from the start of a career written by the artist who performed it which he still holds to this day. Billy is the better song writer. Just because someone writes more songs doesn't make him better.

Who said Prince was better for writing MORE songs? It's my opinion Prince makes better music, it's your opinion Joel makes better music.

We're not discussing that are we? You wanted to discuss hits, Prince has more hits, he has more SUCCESSFUL hits than Billy Joel, as I have just proven. Prince has had almost more number 1 hits than Billy Joel has had hits IN the top 40 at ANY place.

You can name all the awards for dancing that you want, you chose to suggest Billy Joel was better by far because he had "all" those hits. Prince beats him in that area, Prince is also, objectively, the better musician. Prince has won upward of seven grammys, to my count, and according to the Grammy site.

Prince sold out 21 nights at London's o2, nights in Vegas, countless other places. He was the US's biggest arena-performing earner in, I think, 2004.

Disney named Billy Joel person of the year, big deal. What relevance does this have? He has a degree from Berklee, that's impressive. Prince had mastered over 20 instruments by the time he was my age, younger, even. Barely out of his teens and he was producing albums that were lauded whilst being called a "boy wonder" by people like Bob Dylan.

As I said, all of this means essentially nothing to me, as quality is always more important than success, but since you suggested Billy Joel had more hits, I countered and have proven otherwise.

-AC

ESB -1138
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
We're not discussing that are we? You wanted to discuss hits, Prince has more hits, he has more SUCCESSFUL hits than Billy Joel, as I have just proven. Prince has had almost more number 1 hits than Billy Joel has had hits IN the top 40 at ANY place.


Really? Prince has 28 hits in the top 40 while Billy has 34. Seems like Billy writes better songs.

Alpha Centauri
Originally posted by ESB -1138
Really? Prince has 28 hits in the top 40 while Billy has 34. Seems like Billy writes better songs.

"Better" refers to quality, and chart position does not reflect quality. We're not discussing QUALITY, we're discussing successful hits.

But if you determine who is better by chart position, Prince has had twenty eight hits in the Hot 100, eight of which were number ones.

Billy Joel has had thirty four hits in the Hot 100, three of which were number ones.

Prince is still ahead. Number one is the best anybody can do, chart wise, and Prince has done that more than Billy Joel and while we're at it, more than ANY artist EVER besides a handful which includes; The Beatles, Elton John and Elvis Presley.

Phil Collins is ahead of Billy Joel when it comes to number one hits.

I'll say it again, if you wanna discuss who writes better songs, it's all opinion. I say Prince, you say Joel. Success? Prince has the edge, and it doesn't determine quality.

-AC

2D_MASTER
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

...
Prince beats him in that area, Prince is also, objectively, the better musician...
-AC

How so?

ESB -1138
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Joel has had thirty four hits in the Hot 100, three of which were number ones.
-AC

No, no, no. I was only naming Joel songs in the top 40. If you want me to go top 100 I'll go to top 100: which would be 42 now compared to the 28 Prince songs.

In fact I don't know where you get 8 number 1s for every site I see it only has 5.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Success? Prince has the edge, and it doesn't determine quality.

-AC

What? Try Billy Joel who has outsold Prince in terms of album sales and shows.

Alpha Centauri
2D, I actually have a reply to that typed out and saved, and I will post it when you answer MY question. I see no reason to indulge you when you will not answer anything I ask YOU;

How can you be a songwriter if you don't write songs?

Answer this and I'll post my reply to your question.

Originally posted by ESB -1138
No, no, no. I was only naming Joel songs in the top 40. If you want me to go top 100 I'll go to top 100: which would be 42 now compared to the 28 Prince songs.

In fact I don't know where you get 8 number 1s for every site I see it only has 5.



What? Try Billy Joel who has outsold Prince in terms of album sales and sold out shows.

It doesn't matter, if you are judging CHART SUCCESS, Prince has been at number one eight times. Billy Joel has been there THREE times. NUMBER ONE being the highest possibly place, PLUS Prince other very high charting singles, he has collectively got not only more higher placing hits, but has achieved more number ones.

He's just more successful, no shame in it, but he is.

Five as a solo artist, two with The Revolution, one with The New Power Generation. All of which were songs wrote by him.

Originally posted by ESB -1138
What? Try Billy Joel who has outsold Prince in terms of album sales and shows.

So? You based your argument on hits, Prince wins in that area. If you want to shift the debate elsewhere because you've lost, that's your deal.

-AC

2D_MASTER
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
I actually have a reply to that typed out and saved, and I will post it when you answer MY question. I see no reason to indulge you when you will not answer anything I ask YOU;

How can you be a songwriter if you don't write songs?

Answer this and I'll post my reply to your question.

-AC

Did I ever claim " Robbie Williams is a song writer" ? No. But there are people who would argue that just because he collaborates on his music, he does write some of his own music. Go ask those people that question. I merely brought up that your view that he wasn't a song writer COULD be questioned. I have no burden of proof, tough guy.

Alpha Centauri
Originally posted by 2D_MASTER
Did I ever claim " Robbie Williams is a song writer" ? No. But there are people who would argue that just because he collaborates on his music, he does write some of his own music. Go ask those people that question. I merely brought up that your view that he wasn't a song writer COULD be questioned. I have no burden of proof, tough guy.

I appreciate the reply, congrats.

You can't argue that he writes his own music if he doesn't actually write his own music, and he doesn't. So, he's not a songwriter. A songwriter is someone who makes their living off writing their own songs, Robbie Williams is no more a songwriter than Britney Spears. So no, I'm not deciding who can and can't be a songwriter, the definition is, and Robbie Williams is not one. YOU questioned my point, like they would, and it was swiftly ended by the application of what it means to be a songwriter. End of argument, moving on.

How is Prince a better musician? Because he is known for his technical mastery of over 25 instruments, by age 20.

Steve Vai, one of the world's best technical guitarists, was impressed by him, and rates him as one of the best guitarists, technique wise, ever. He plays more or less every single instrument on most of his albums, and a lot of it isn't easy, from a technical stance. Technically speaking, he's the better player of instruments. Not "objectively" better music, objectively better musician/player.

Billy Joel is not a great technical player of any instrument he plays. Not that it matters, lots of great songwriters aren't technical wizards, you don't need to be, I was just stating that Prince is better in that area.

-AC

2D_MASTER
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
You can't argue that he writes his own music if he doesn't actually write his own music, and he doesn't. So, he's not a songwriter. A songwriter is someone who makes their living off writing their own songs, Robbie Williams is no more a songwriter than Britney Spears. So no, I'm not deciding who can and can't be a songwriter, the definition is, and Robbie Williams is not one. End of argument, now;

Go tell that somebody who considers Robbie Williams a songwriter, genius.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

Because he is known for his technical mastery of over 25 instruments, by age 20.

Steve Vai, one of the world's best technical guitarists, was impressed by him, and rates him as one of the best guitarists, technique wise, ever. He plays more or less every single instrument on most of his albums, and a lot of it isn't easy, from a technical stance. Technically speaking, he's the better player of instruments. Not "objectively" better music, objectively better musician/player.

Billy Joel is not a great technical player of any instrument he plays. Not that it matters, lots of great songwriters aren't technical wizards, you don't need to be, I was just stating that Prince is better in that area.

-AC

Well, you assume that being a technical instrumentalist is synonymous with being a great overall musician . If you were more specific and said he is a better "instrumentalist" or that he plays more musical instruments skillfully, you might have a point. Objectively a better musician? You have not proven that.

Alpha Centauri
Originally posted by 2D_MASTER
Well, you assume that being a technical instrumentalist is synonymous with being a great overall musician . If you were more specific and said he is a better "instrumentalist" or that he plays more musical instruments skillfully, you might have a point. Objectively a better musician? You have not proven that.

No I don't, infact, I specifically said that isn't the case.

Stop blaming your idiotic misinterpretations on me, I'm not responsible for you. You took me as saying "overall" despite it being clear that I was referring to the technical aspect. It's just you being picky and even then, still getting it wrong. If you're going to try to nab me on a technicality, make sure I'm incorrect;

musician
1. a person who makes music a profession, esp. as a performer of music.
2. any person, whether professional or not, skilled in music.

instrumentalist
1. a person who plays a musical instrument.

Similar thing. Skilled in music/playing a musical instrument. If anything, anybody could be considered an instrumentalist JUST because they play, musician defines it as being SKILLED, which not everybody IS, Prince is. So TECHNICALLY speaking, 2D, you nailed yourself in the foot.

Bye.

-AC

Victor Von Doom
Originally posted by ESB -1138
Joel was also the singer of the National Anthem at Super Bowl XXIII and Super Bowl XLI, both of which were played in Miami. He is the first singer ever to sing the National Anthem in two Super Bowls.


Was that the one where Billy Joel was panned for singing the national anthem out of tune?

I think Prince played at that one. Was good, apparently.

2D_MASTER
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
No I don't, infact, I specifically said that isn't the case.

Stop blaming your idiotic misinterpretations on me, I'm not responsible for you. You took me as saying "overall" despite it being clear that I was referring to the technical aspect. It's just you being picky and even then, still getting it wrong. If you're going to try to nab me on a technicality, make sure I'm incorrect;

musician
1. a person who makes music a profession, esp. as a performer of music.
2. any person, whether professional or not, skilled in music.

instrumentalist
1. a person who plays a musical instrument.

Similar thing. Skilled in music/playing a musical instrument. If anything, anybody could be considered an instrumentalist JUST because they play, musician defines it as being SKILLED, which not everybody IS, Prince is. So TECHNICALLY speaking, 2D, you nailed yourself in the foot.

Bye.

-AC

Bye? All that BS and you still haven't proved he is an OBJECTIVELY better musician, you silly fool. Try again.

Alpha Centauri
You mean keep posting evidence, proof and overwhelming information that proves you incorrect so you can keep denying it?

No thanks. Like I said, I'm not responsible for you, just me, and I've already proven he is, specified what area I am talking about and even given you dictionary definitions.

I can't account for your idiocy.

-AC

2D_MASTER

Funkadelic
U guys just wanna hate on him,that's cool.
But spare us the stupidity u guys sprout around.

Alpha Centauri

2D_MASTER
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
When did I say that him playing MORE makes him better? Him reaching a skill and technique level of mastery on all of those is what makes him a better technical musician, as I have clearly and explicitly spelled out to you on more than three occassions, which you ignore, because you just wish to continue this. You make things up and run with them simply because you really do have nothing to say.

Prince has been praised by one of the greatest skilled guitarists ever, as one of the best skilled guitarists ever. Sheila E, one of the world's best technical drummers has praised his immense skill as a drummer.

For the last time, he is a better player than Billy Joel, objectively, skill wise. You having problems simply because I said "musician" is not my problem, newbie. What you have to understand is that there is virtually no difference between instrumentalist and musician, in fact, the only difference is that the dictionary defines one as highlighting skill, whereas the other highlights the ability to just play. In which case "musician" and instrumentalist both apply to Prince, so not only are you wrong on that count, but wrong on the count of challenging the FACT that he is objectively the better technical musician. I never once stated he objectively writes better music, that's impossible, but that's what you chose to assume I meant by saying "musician.".

Prince is a 27 instrument virtuoso, Billy Joel is not. If you wish to claim that Steve Vai is wrong, go ahead, just be aware how dumb it'd make you look.

You were wrong, as always.

-AC

Hahaha, all that irrelevant BS, still no proof to YOUR claim...
Nice way to TRY to cover your ass. Must I quote you again to point out that what you said was extremely vague and idiotic? You made the claim:

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
... Prince is also, objectively, the better musician...
-AC

Now prove it, you weasel. Oh no, you can't. Stop drowning in a puddle or your own stupidity... call it quits.

Alpha Centauri
Originally posted by 2D_MASTER
Hahaha, all that irrelevant BS, still no proof to YOUR claim...
Nice way to TRY to cover your ass. Must I quote you again to point out that what you said was extremely vague and idiotic? You made the claim:



Now prove it, you weasel. Oh no, you can't. Stop drowing in a puddle or your own stupidity... call it quits.

It wasn't vague and idiotic, you are just idiotic. Also you quoted a single line, it takes a big man to put things in his own context.

I have explained what I meant many times since and you still don't grasp the fact, and the proof I have given, toward Prince being a better musician. Everybody who's anybody knows that Prince is one of the most skilled guitarists ever, and that accolade was enforced BY one of the most skilled guitarists ever. So...is he wrong? When has anyone said that about Billy Idol?

It's a well known part of Prince's history that he has mastered, to virtuoso level, a lot of instruments. It's at the point where you're requesting I provide proof that will shatter your ignorance. We both know that I could get Steve Vai and Eric Clapton themselves to come on here and tell you how high THEY rate Prince, and you'd still go "Prove it.".

As stated before, Billy Joel got panned, worldwide, for singing the national anthem out of tune on a Superbowl half time show. Prince's appearance was praised for flawless vocal performance and outstanding MUSICIANSHIP, one of the biggest watched US television broadcasts since the moon landing.

It's not proof you're after, I've given you proof.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=3jMGNe25xNo

Billy Joel cannot play guitar that well, there are many guitarists better than Joel who cannot touch Prince. Billy Joel simply isn't anywhere near as good of a player of any instrument as Prince is, fact. He could never pull off the solo in that first video. Fact.

Read the comments; "Steve Vai ranks him as one of the best.", "Eric Clapton said he's the best guitarist ever.", and they have. Do you wanna discuss how many have said that about Billy Joel? Prince is OBJECTIVELY a better player. You lost the debate before it even started, but I know how it goes. You keep on, I keep knocking you back, we get to a point where you get "tired" of me and then used the silly "Tell everyone you've beaten me." leaving remark.

-AC

2D_MASTER

Alpha Centauri

2D_MASTER

Alpha Centauri

2D_MASTER

Alpha Centauri
No, let's get it right.

I said "Objectively better musician.", you fairly asked "How so?", and I replied with:

"Because he is known for his technical mastery of over 25 instruments, by age 20.".

TECHNICAL MASTERY. That was the FIRST line of my FIRST reply to your question, then I went into clear and specific detail which you chose to not only ignore, but believe - out of nowhere - the opposite and make things up.

This is all because you assumed I meant overall musician, which is just one meaning of the word "musician". You are trying to pin your misinterpretation on me, although to be fair, you didn't even jump to conclusions first, you actually took the sensible route of asking "How so?". What puzzles me is why, after clearly explaining it, you didn't just go "Oh, you meant technique etc.". Actually, I know why; you wanted an argument and was determined to get one.

I said objectively better musician, you asked for clarification, I gave it, you continue bitching, pissing and moaning. No reason for it, at all.

-AC

The Highlord
Think I'd have to go with Jon Bon Jovi and Richie Sambora, feckin dig they'r style ofcourse some of their songs where co written with Desmond Child whos also great smile

Stay cool brothers wink

bakerboy
John lennon
Paul Mcartney
George Harrison
Bob Dylan
Keith Richards
Jim Morrison
Freddie Mercury
Brian May
Chuck Berry

ESB -1138
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
2D, I actually have a reply to that typed out and saved, and I will post it when you answer MY question. I see no reason to indulge you when you will not answer anything I ask YOU;

How can you be a songwriter if you don't write songs?

Answer this and I'll post my reply to your question.



It doesn't matter, if you are judging CHART SUCCESS, Prince has been at number one eight times. Billy Joel has been there THREE times. NUMBER ONE being the highest possibly place, PLUS Prince other very high charting singles, he has collectively got not only more higher placing hits, but has achieved more number ones.

He's just more successful, no shame in it, but he is.

Five as a solo artist, two with The Revolution, one with The New Power Generation. All of which were songs wrote by him.



So? You based your argument on hits, Prince wins in that area. If you want to shift the debate elsewhere because you've lost, that's your deal.

-AC

CHART SUCCESS is equal to the ONLY WAY to determine the success of a song. You are saying that just because Joel hasn't written as many songs as Prince he isn't a better song writer. Joel has beaten Prince in terms of Top 40s despite Prince coming out with an album basically each and every year.

You keep saying Prince has have 8 number 1s but I see only 5; show some info to back up your words. You call Prince the more successful artist despite the fact Joel has more hits, more album sales, and has made more from all his shows.

Joel > Prince

Funkadelic
That top 40 doesn't even include Nasty Girl, A Love Bizarre, Manic monday, Nothing Compares 2 U & others.
Prince just is more succesfull face it.

He even won an oscar!

ESB -1138
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
It wasn't vague and idiotic, you are just idiotic. Also you quoted a single line, it takes a big man to put things in his own context.

I have explained what I meant many times since and you still don't grasp the fact, and the proof I have given, toward Prince being a better musician. Everybody who's anybody knows that Prince is one of the most skilled guitarists ever, and that accolade was enforced BY one of the most skilled guitarists ever. So...is he wrong? When has anyone said that about Billy Idol?

It's a well known part of Prince's history that he has mastered, to virtuoso level, a lot of instruments. It's at the point where you're requesting I provide proof that will shatter your ignorance. We both know that I could get Steve Vai and Eric Clapton themselves to come on here and tell you how high THEY rate Prince, and you'd still go "Prove it.".

As stated before, Billy Joel got panned, worldwide, for singing the national anthem out of tune on a Superbowl half time show. Prince's appearance was praised for flawless vocal performance and outstanding MUSICIANSHIP, one of the biggest watched US television broadcasts since the moon landing.

It's not proof you're after, I've given you proof.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=3jMGNe25xNo

Billy Joel cannot play guitar that well, there are many guitarists better than Joel who cannot touch Prince. Billy Joel simply isn't anywhere near as good of a player of any instrument as Prince is, fact. He could never pull off the solo in that first video. Fact.

Read the comments; "Steve Vai ranks him as one of the best.", "Eric Clapton said he's the best guitarist ever.", and they have. Do you wanna discuss how many have said that about Billy Joel? Prince is OBJECTIVELY a better player. You lost the debate before it even started, but I know how it goes. You keep on, I keep knocking you back, we get to a point where you get "tired" of me and then used the silly "Tell everyone you've beaten me." leaving remark.

-AC

And Prince can't play the piano as well as Joel. Joel calls himself a pianist first, singer second. I sorry no one has ever said Joel (who is known as the PIANO MAN) as one of the best guartist ever. Heck even the great Ray Charles said Joel would be remembered as one of the greatest singers of his era. Elton John has called Joel a grand pianist whose vocals cannot be easily matched.

Nelly Furtado, Stevie Wonder, Jon Bon Jovi, Diana Krall, Rob Thomas, and Natalie Cole all have performed Billy Joel songs calling him the best songerwriter. Heck even American Idol had a Billy Joel night. I have yet to see a Prince night. All them called Joel a master of the piano.

Funkadelic
http://www.dailymotion.com/relevance/search/prince+piano/video/x18a6o_princeavalanche_events

Alpha Centauri
Originally posted by ESB -1138
CHART SUCCESS is equal to the ONLY WAY to determine the success of a song. You are saying that just because Joel hasn't written as many songs as Prince he isn't a better song writer. Joel has beaten Prince in terms of Top 40s despite Prince coming out with an album basically each and every year.

You keep saying Prince has have 8 number 1s but I see only 5; show some info to back up your words. You call Prince the more successful artist despite the fact Joel has more hits, more album sales, and has made more from all his shows.

Joel > Prince

That ISN'T what I'm saying. "Better" is subjective when it comes to QUALITY. I'm saying he's not as successful as Prince, if you think he's better, then name him for this thread because of his SONGWRITING quality, not because of success. I'm not naming Prince because of success, I'm naming him because I believe his quality to be superior. YOU were the one who kept saying everyone was blind to agreeing Billy Joel is the best songwriter BECAUSE he has hits. If hits is how you decide, Prince wins. If it's QUALITY OF MUSIC, it's opinion.

You see FIVE under the name PRINCE. He has had FIVE solo, TWO with The Revolution and ONE with The New Power Generation. They aren't all listed under "Prince". He did, however, write them.

Prince > Joel. Success = Objectively. Quality = Subjectively.

Originally posted by ESB -1138
And Prince can't play the piano as well as Joel. Joel calls himself a pianist first, singer second. I sorry no one has ever said Joel (who is known as the PIANO MAN) as one of the best guartist ever. Heck even the great Ray Charles said Joel would be remembered as one of the greatest singers of his era. Elton John has called Joel a grand pianist whose vocals cannot be easily matched.

Yeah, like that time he got trashed for failing to hit the notes on the national anthem, Prince's half time show went down as the greatest half time show ever, one of the biggest watched televised events since the moon landing. Joel? No, Prince.

Originally posted by ESB -1138
Nelly Furtado, Stevie Wonder, Jon Bon Jovi, Diana Krall, Rob Thomas, and Natalie Cole all have performed Billy Joel songs calling him the best songerwriter. Heck even American Idol had a Billy Joel night. I have yet to see a Prince night. All them called Joel a master of the piano.

So you're saying that because American Idol, a show geared toward making corporate puppets to gain money, say something...it's true? How very stupid and desperate.

So what if NELLY FURTADO has performed Joel songs? Do I need to give you the list of how many people have not only performed Prince songs, but songs written BY Prince FOR them?

What are we discussing? Who makes better quality music? Who has more success or who is more influential? Prince is undeniably and factually the better skilled musician, when it comes to playing instruments. Joel being a "great" piano player doesn't make him more skilled at it.

The thread is "Best Songwriter." so I think we should just be discussing why we think the music itself is worthy of the accolade. YOU brought up hits, I countered you and now you're clutching at desperate straws.

-AC

ESB -1138
Originally posted by Funkadelic
http://www.dailymotion.com/relevance/search/prince+piano/video/x18a6o_princeavalanche_events

I never said Prince couldn't play piano. I just said he wasn't as good as a pianist as Billy Joel.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=7AXGIl1yHWA

Joel playing guitar; does that making him a better guirtist?

Alpha Centauri
Prince is actually a more skilled pianist, though.

-AC

ESB -1138
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
That ISN'T what I'm saying. "Better" is subjective when it comes to QUALITY. I'm saying he's not as successful as Prince, if you think he's better, then name him for this thread because of his SONGWRITING quality, not because of success. I'm not naming Prince because of success, I'm naming him because I believe his quality to be superior. YOU were the one who kept saying everyone was blind to agreeing Billy Joel is the best songwriter BECAUSE he has hits. If hits is how you decide, Prince wins. If it's QUALITY OF MUSIC, it's opinion.

You see FIVE under the name PRINCE. He has had FIVE solo, TWO with The Revolution and ONE with The New Power Generation. They aren't all listed under "Prince". He did, however, write them.

Prince > Joel. Success = Objectively. Quality = Subjectively.



Yeah, like that time he got trashed for failing to hit the notes on the national anthem, Prince's half time show went down as the greatest half time show ever, one of the biggest watched televised events since the moon landing. Joel? No, Prince.



So you're saying that because American Idol, a show geared toward making corporate puppets to gain money, say something...it's true? How very stupid and desperate.

So what if NELLY FURTADO has performed Joel songs? Do I need to give you the list of how many people have not only performed Prince songs, but songs written BY Prince FOR them?

What are we discussing? Who makes better quality music? Who has more success or who is more influential? Prince is undeniably and factually the better skilled musician, when it comes to playing instruments. Joel being a "great" piano player doesn't make him more skilled at it.

The thread is "Best Songwriter." so I think we should just be discussing why we think the music itself is worthy of the accolade. YOU brought up hits, I countered you and now you're clutching at desperate straws.

-AC


And you are saying that Prince is better despite Joel having more top 40 hits. You keep trashing at me for saying Joel is better because he has more top 40 hits and YET YOU KEEPING DOING THE SAME by saying Prince is better because he has 5 number 1 hits. You named off Prince's top hits and I named all of Joel's and yet when I did you tried to come up with some BS.

You are saying that because Prince manages to come out with a new album basically he is the better song writer. Now you are saying Prince is the better muscian by naming all these people who call Prince a great guartist. Now that I do the same with Joel and the piano all of a sudden I'm the one getting off topic.

You say Joel messed up the Star Spangled Banner and yet I have never heard/seen someone saw it was a horrible perfomance like you claimed it. That gender confused artist you like so much isn't the better song writer.

Alpha Centauri
Originally posted by ESB -1138
And you are saying that Prince is better despite Joel having more top 40 hits. You keep trashing at me for saying Joel is better because he has more top 40 hits and YET YOU KEEPING DOING THE SAME by saying Prince is better because he has 5 number 1 hits. You named off Prince's top hits and I named all of Joel's and yet when I did you tried to come up with some BS.

Ok, I'll say it ONE MORE TIME. Joel having more songs in the general top 40 does not mean the QUALITY of his songs is better, do you understand that? It doesn't make him MORE successful.

Quality of music cannot be judged by success, ok? Ok good.

I am saying Prince is better (As in, makes better music.) because I BELIEVE he does. NOT because of success, hits or amount of songs. YOU are saying everyone is blind cos they can't agree Joel is the best, purely because of "hits". IF hits is how you want to judge, PRINCE still wins. Why? Because Prince has been at the top of the charts more than Billy. Despite having slightly less top 40 hits, he has had more higher charting songs than Joel.

I am NOT saying Prince is a better songwriter because he has had more number ones, I'm saying he's more SUCCESSFUL as a CHARTED ARTIST because of it.;

WHAT are we discussing? Are we discussing quality of music or success? Stop confusing the two.

Originally posted by ESB -1138
You are saying that because Prince manages to come out with a new album basically he is the better song writer. Now you are saying Prince is the better muscian by naming all these people who call Prince a great guartist. Now that I do the same with Joel and the piano all of a sudden I'm the one getting off topic.

Stop being ignorant, I am not saying that at all. I've never said that. Prince ISN'T a better songwriter because he comes out with new albums or whatever. Here, I'll explain it ONE MORE TIME;

I personally believe Prince is the better songwriter because I personally believe he writes better music. Ok? Good. Secondly, YOU were the one who suggested Joel was better because of HITS and success. So then I simply said he wasn't more successful, and proved such. If hits are how you judge "better songwriter", then my point was that Prince still wins because he's still the more SUCCESSFUL songwriter.

We can either discuss quality, or we can discuss success. I am not saying he's better for having more songs or more hits, I'm simply saying he does have more successful hits. No more, no less.

Prince is factually a better player, a better skilled musician than Joel. Prince is amazing at piano, one of the best guitarists ever, an amazing drummer, an incredible bassist and a very versatile vocalist. He is massively skilled in many areas. Joel is a "very good" pianist and a poor live singer, as proven by his Superbowl show. He's not a highly skilled technical player.

Originally posted by ESB -1138
You say Joel messed up the Star Spangled Banner and yet I have never heard/seen someone saw it was a horrible perfomance like you claimed it. That gender confused artist you like so much isn't the better song writer.

Billy Joel famously got panned for singing it out of tune, I'm not sure what more can be said. You can deny it, but it happened.

Oh...oh, what a way to truly invalidate your argument, how sad. Gender confused? What does that have to do with ANYTHING? He's not gender confused in any case. Even if he was, the "gender confused" artist would still be the more skilled, successful musician.

Whether or not he writes better songs or whether or not Joel writes better songs is OPINION.

So I'll say again; if your next reply is more bs with you totally confusing the points I've made, despite me clearing it up, I will just reply to whatever's relevant.

Recap; I think Prince is better cos in my opinion he writes better music, not because of hits or success, BUT, he DOES have more successful hits and has been the more successful musician. So if that is how YOU decide who is better, Prince would still win, by YOUR rationale.

-AC

chillmeistergen
Morrissey.

Victor Von Doom
Solo or The Smiths?

Johnny Marr wrote The Smiths' songs.

chillmeistergen
Originally posted by Victor Von Doom
Solo or The Smiths?

Johnny Marr wrote The Smiths' songs.

I was unsure what the question related to, so, I assumed lyrical content or otherwise composition. Sort of a choose between the two.

Though, Johnny Marr would obviously be close to taking the same title, for different reasons, in my book. I answered Morrissey.

pepperjeff
I pick Elvis Costello. His discography is vast and much of it is worthy.

ESB -1138
Don Henley, Joe Walsh, and Glenn Frey of the Eagles are pretty good song writers. I can't name any songs Tim. Schmit wrote. I say Jimmy Buffett is a good song writer. Michael Jackson can write some good songs as well...of course Rod Temperton is also an excellent song writer.

Alpha Centauri
Originally posted by chillmeistergen
I was unsure what the question related to, so, I assumed lyrical content or otherwise composition. Sort of a choose between the two.

Though, Johnny Marr would obviously be close to taking the same title, for different reasons, in my book. I answered Morrissey.

Lyricism isn't songwriting. Songwriting is songwriting.

Morrissey doesn't write his own songs. Contribute maybe, but it's either his band or it was Marr.

-AC

Kid Kurdy
Nobody mentions Tom Waits...

Alpha Centauri
I thought this was just to name who our personal best songwriters were.

I think Tom Waits is brilliant, but he's not on mine.

-AC

BobbyD
Originally posted by 2D_MASTER
Well, you assume that being a technical instrumentalist is synonymous with being a great overall musician . If you were more specific and said he is a better "instrumentalist" or that he plays more musical instruments skillfully, you might have a point. Objectively a better musician? You have not proven that.

2D, if I may...

Prince is as skilled a musician as there ever has been in the history of music. The greatest accolade is to be known as such by your industry...those who dwell in it....appreciate and compete against him.....acknowledged by peers, past & present; and I will assume future. no expression

chillmeistergen
Matt Bellamy, then. Closely followed by Marr.

Victor Von Doom
Something that I wonder about is:

How, if at all, are people considering this differently to the question 'Who is your favourite artist?', and why?

Are people just naming their favourite artists, and using that as the justification, or are they considering the concept of skilled songwriting in some other way?

Bardock42
Originally posted by Victor Von Doom
Something that I wonder about is:

How, if at all, are people considering this differently to the question 'Who is your favourite artist?', and why?

Are people just naming their favourite artists, and using that as the justification, or are they considering the concept of skilled songwriting in some other way? I guess they have to, at least, ignore bands that create their songs in a combined effort, and people that don't write their songs...though, apparently they don't. Should though, bastards.

BobbyD
Dare I say Lennon/McCartney or will I be crucified? confused

PiruBlood
2pac. the man is a poet. he isnt just some rap artist the man was a leader. picture elvis everyone respects his stuff for the shit he did back in his time so 2pac is the elvis of hiphop.

Bardock42
Originally posted by BobbyD
Dare I say Lennon/McCartney or will I be crucified? confused Depends, do you mean both together? Cause...they are two people, you know?

Victor Von Doom
Originally posted by Bardock42
I guess they have to, at least, ignore bands that create their songs in a combined effort, and people that don't write their songs...though, apparently they don't. Should though, bastards.

Yeah, I didn't mean so much in the collaboration sense, more in the sense of 'what makes a good songwriter?', and whether that's the same as 'the person who makes the songs I like best'.

BobbyD
Originally posted by Bardock42
Depends, do you mean both together? Cause...they are two people, you know?

Good question.

They wrote songs together and seperately.

IMO, I say that Lennon was the better of two, and I'm talking marginally here.

Funkadelic
George clinton is great too.

BobbyD
Originally posted by BobbyD
Good question.

They wrote songs together and seperately.

IMO, I say that Lennon was the better of two, and I'm talking marginally here.

The amalgam was its best form, IMO, despite both having successful solo careers or even when they were together making their own songs.

...got the best of both worlds.

Bardock42
Originally posted by Victor Von Doom
Yeah, I didn't mean so much in the collaboration sense, more in the sense of 'what makes a good songwriter?', and whether that's the same as 'the person who makes the songs I like best'.

Should have said that then.

Victor Von Doom
Originally posted by Bardock42
Should have said that then.

I-i did. I just humoured you by implying that your interpretation was also reasonable.

Bardock42
Originally posted by Victor Von Doom
I-i did. I just humoured you by implying that your interpretation was also reasonable. You lie...to make yourself feel better about feeling worse.

2D_MASTER

peejay88
At the complete opposite, other end of the spectrum, has anyone heard of kate Nash? She is creating quite a stir in the mainstream music scene in England. This truly does sadden me as her lyrics have to be heard to be believed, they are so, so shite that it is laughable and her music is even worse. She is stealing a living, truly horrific....

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=orACIBjHuI4


As far as great songwriters go i'd say the usual sort of names, Johnny marr, Springsteen, Bob Dylan, John Fogerty, Lennon/mcartney, Billy Joel, Elton John, Phil Lynott, Neil Finn, Bob Marley , Smokey Robinson, pete Townsend, Michael Stipe, Tom Waits, Thom Yorke, Neil Young...


Err...yeah!

Victor Von Doom
Kate Nash is ****ing abysmal.

chillmeistergen
Seconded, actually, perhaps thirded.

yvonnekarate
Originally posted by Victor Von Doom
Robbie Williams doesn't even write his own songs, and they're terrible in any case.

Double failure to make the grade.

Yes, he writes his own songs, alone or with others. And I couldn't really care less of what you think of him.

Regards, Yvonne

yvonnekarate
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Get out, now.

-AC

No. I doubt you've even heard of Marit Larsen or Sondre Lerche.

Regards, Yvonne

yvonnekarate
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Get out, now.

-AC

And you said I shouldn't like him. Well, you know what: to bad for you. I've got a wide taste in music and I don't see anything wrong with that. And I suggest 'You go out, now' as I'm not really interested in your opinion when you're acting like that - rude and giving me comments I can't take seriously. Who are you to define what's good and what's bad? Music is subjective - and if you even knew Williams, you would know he writes his own stuff, and he's been collaborating with Chambers.

And as for Jewel - I love her songs, whether or not you agree or disagree. Her songs means a lot to me, but I'm not giving you a reason why - as I don't really feel you're entitled to know. Not now at least.

Regards, Yvonne

Mywi
Robert Del Naja, Tricky.

Alpha Centauri
Originally posted by yvonnekarate
Yes, he writes his own songs, alone or with others. And I couldn't really care less of what you think of him.

Regards, Yvonne

No, he doesn't.

Originally posted by yvonnekarate
No. I doubt you've even heard of Marit Larsen or Sondre Lerche.

A) Yes I have, B) Why is that a suitable reply?

Originally posted by yvonnekarate
And you said I shouldn't like him. Well, you know what: to bad for you. I've got a wide taste in music and I don't see anything wrong with that. And I suggest 'You go out, now' as I'm not really interested in your opinion when you're acting like that - rude and giving me comments I can't take seriously. Who are you to define what's good and what's bad? Music is subjective - and if you even knew Williams, you would know he writes his own stuff, and he's been collaborating with Chambers.

I never said you shouldn't like him, I made a humourous remark that suggests you are stupid (Again, in joke) for liking him. However, he does not write his own songs. He has someone write them for him then takes the credit because he was in the studio at the time. That's a fact.

Me sitting next to Picasso telling him what to paint doesn't make me a painter. If you can't do it yourself, you are not worthy of being labelled such.

I am aware music taste is subjective, but being a songwriter is not. Williams isn't. Deal with it.

Originally posted by yvonnekarate
as for Jewel - I love her songs, whether or not you agree or disagree. Her songs means a lot to me, but I'm not giving you a reason why - as I don't really feel you're entitled to know. Not now at least.

Regards, Yvonne

Done with the melodrama? Good.

-AC

yvonnekarate
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
No, he doesn't.
Actually - he does.




A) You have? I'm surprised you even bothered look them up. B) Yes, very much so. When you're being rude to me, I can be very much rude to you.




Strange, I didn't find it very humourous at the time. Maybe because of the tone in your message? And how do you actually know that he's in the studio and then takes the credit. How can that possibly be a fact, when I gather you've never been there and seen it for himself.


No, it doesn't. Luckily for me.


Such arrogance. You must really get off on annoying everyone else who doesn't agree with you. And how can you even say that? He's the best songwriter in my opinion. You're not going to change my mind. Ever. Unless you actually have some evidence. And songwriting is very much subjective. You just can't stand that people have other opinions than you. That much is obvious by now. So how do you actually know when a song is good? Is it the length then? Or maybe the melody? Or what about composition? Or maybe the words? Because you see - we do value different things. And that's also why songwriting is very much subjective.




Done with harassing me? Good. Because you don't need to contact me any further. Actually - I'm done writing to you. You want me to go, you actually said so. And infact yes - I was hurt. Because you're just like every other guy who bullied me through school. I'm not going to let you bully me any further by being rude and giving remarks I don't deserve.

So I take you're advice, I'm out of here.

Regards, Yvonne

Alpha Centauri
Originally posted by yvonnekarate
Actually - he does.

No. You don't seem to grasp the fact that he doesn't.

Originally posted by yvonnekarate
A) You have? I'm surprised you even bothered look them up. B) Yes, very much so. When you're being rude to me, I can be very much rude to you.

It wasn't rude, it was pointless. Saying "I doubt you know these people." doesn't prove anything nor serve a purpose. It was odd for you to reply that way.

Originally posted by yvonnekarate
Strange, I didn't find it very humourous at the time. Maybe because of the tone in your message? And how do you actually know that he's in the studio and then takes the credit. How can that possibly be a fact, when I gather you've never been there and seen it for himself.

Why come back so long after it had died down, so long after I can expressed it as humour, and start crying about it? That's what I want to know.

Have you ever read the credits to one of his albums? My sister happens to own them.

Originally posted by yvonnekarate
No, it doesn't. Luckily for me.

Reply with some sense, woman, or don't reply at all.

Originally posted by yvonnekarate
Such arrogance. You must really get off on annoying everyone else who doesn't agree with you. And how can you even say that? He's the best songwriter in my opinion. You're not going to change my mind. Ever. Unless you actually have some evidence. And songwriting is very much subjective. You just can't stand that people have other opinions than you. That much is obvious by now. So how do you actually know when a song is good? Is it the length then? Or maybe the melody? Or what about composition? Or maybe the words? Because you see - we do value different things. And that's also why songwriting is very much subjective.

He is not a songwriter, you fool.

Go read the album notes, his name isn't there, save for lyrics. He does not write music, at all. Songwriting is NOT subjective when it comes down to what constitutes it. If you do not write songs, you are not a song WRITER.

We are not discussing SONG QUALITY, Robbie Williams is NOT a songwriter. THAT is the issue. I don't care that you mentioned Jewel, she writes her own songs.

Originally posted by yvonnekarate
Done with harassing me? Good. Because you don't need to contact me any further. Actually - I'm done writing to you. You want me to go, you actually said so. And infact yes - I was hurt. Because you're just like every other guy who bullied me through school. I'm not going to let you bully me any further by being rude and giving remarks I don't deserve.

Oh stop being such a drama queen. You kicked this off for no reason.

I'm not bullying you, this is a forum and people here speak in such a heated way to each other all the time. Don't turn up and expect it to change, or worse. YOU bumped this ages after it had died and I had already expressed that I was joking.

Robbie Williams is NOT a songwriter, THAT is the issue. Not you liking his music.

Originally posted by yvonnekarate
So I take you're advice, I'm out of here.

Regards, Yvonne

Peace.

-AC

yvonnekarate
You call me a fool. And you want me out of here.

And yes - he is a songwriter. You haven't given me any proof and I won't change my mind, just because you feel like it.

Regards, Yvonne

Alpha Centauri
I don't need you to change your mind, you're the one who's wrong.

Stop saying "You want me out of here.", I couldn't care any less whether you stay or go, but if you're doing to stay, at least stop pushing a belief that is wrong.

-AC

yvonnekarate
You did say you wanted me out of here.

We can agree on one thing - we both think the other is wrong. Great. wink

Regards, Yvonne

Alpha Centauri
You actually are though.

If you are going to leave, leave. Don't say it and then stay, you're disrupting the thread, which you bumped to moan about something that was a joke.

You're quickly becoming a troll.

-AC

yvonnekarate
You're the one who started this mess, getting off on the fact that I like Robbie Williams as a songwriter. And you are actually too. Wrong I mean. Give me the proof and we'll see. If you're right, how hard can it be?

Regards, Yvonne

Alpha Centauri
No, no, no.

Like Robbie Williams all you want, but he has no place here cos he's not an actual songwriter, what part of that do you not grasp?

Go read his CD notes and tell me how many times he is mentioned on the SONGWRITING credits, it's none.

-AC

yvonnekarate
What ever you say. You win. Doesn't mean I've changed my mind though.

Regards, Yvonne

Alpha Centauri
Then leave and let anyone who wishes to discuss this thread do so, you're disrupting it.

-AC

yvonnekarate
You're too.

Regards, Yvonne

Bardock42
Well...I think it should be pretty clear that people that don't write songs can't be "best songwriters of all time"


Though, to be fair, Robbie Williams is credited with writing the songs (generally considered wrongly so, of course)

yvonnekarate
Originally posted by Bardock42
Well...I think it should be pretty clear that people that don't write songs can't be "best songwriters of all time"

Though, to be fair, Robbie Williams is credited with writing the songs (generally considered wrongly so, of course)

Well, yes, that's why I even mentioned him. And if he has been credited wrongly for writing his songs, then that's not good. I agree, that's just wrong. I would in that case change my opinion. But as long as he is credited, I have no reason to doubt that. Not until I get more solid evidence.

Regards, Yvonne

Alpha Centauri
Originally posted by yvonnekarate
Well, yes, that's why I even mentioned him. And if he has been credited wrongly for writing his songs, then that's not good. I agree, that's just wrong. I would in that case change my opinion. But as long as he is credited, I have no reason to doubt that. Not until I get more solid evidence.

Regards, Yvonne

I told you were to get the evidence, unless you don't actually buy your music.

The man doesn't write his songs. He is being credited with it, by the likes of you.

-AC

yvonnekarate
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
I told you were to get the evidence, unless you don't actually buy your music.

The man doesn't write his songs. He is being credited with it, by the likes of you.

-AC

Okay then. *Finds her albums*

In 'Life Thru a Lens' it says: "all songs written by R Williams and G Chambers, except // Old Before I Die written by R Williams, E Bazilian, D Child and // Clean written by R Williams, A Genn, R Hawley, M Slattery P Cook"

In 'I've Been Expecting You' is says: "all songs written by R Williams and G Chambers" with some exceptions like above.

I know though that he didn't write the songs for 'Swing When You're Winning', as he sings cover versions of old songs.

I never denied he's been writing songs with Guy Chambers, infact I mentioned that earlier. I could go on, but I don't really see a point in that.


Regards, Yvonne

Alpha Centauri
Originally posted by yvonnekarate
Okay then. *Finds her albums*

In 'Life Thru a Lens' it says: "all songs written by R Williams and G Chambers, except // Old Before I Die written by R Williams, E Bazilian, D Child and // Clean written by R Williams, A Genn, R Hawley, M Slattery P Cook"

In 'I've Been Expecting You' is says: "all songs written by R Williams and G Chambers" with some exceptions like above.

I know though that he didn't write the songs for 'Swing When You're Winning', as he sings cover versions of old songs.

I never denied he's been writing songs with Guy Chambers, infact I mentioned that earlier. I could go on, but I don't really see a point in that.


Regards, Yvonne

That would be true if it actually said those things on the albums, because it doesn't. Unless you have a special version of those albums, of course.

As Bardock said, he is often credited, but credited wrongly.

He doesn't write his songs. Why do you think he even has songwriters working for him? Because he doesn't write them himself, but if he were to admit such it would seem damaging. He's not the only one, many attach their names without actually putting any work into creating, him included.

-AC

yvonnekarate
Huh? It does say that. I wrote it off my albums. If you don't believe me, you'll have to contact the record company. I've bought them in UK. If you look in the booklet, it says what I've just stated. In 'Life Thru a Lens' it's written on one of the last pages, same with 'I've Been Expecting You' and 'Sing When You're Winning' . That's also what it says in the booklet to the cd 'Escapology' (under each song the writer is credited).

Regards, Yvonne

Alpha Centauri
The booklet is where I told you to look precisely because it doesn't say that.

Either way, credited or not, he doesn't actually write his songs. If you have versions where he is credited, then I can't necessarily blame you for believing he wrote them, but he doesn't actually write his own songs. It's a known fact here in the UK. He isn't hailed as a songwriter, not by anyone with sense.

-AC

yvonnekarate
Well, then I don't really know what to believe, as it says so in the booklets. And I hope we can have an end to this discussion and I apologise if I was wrong.

Regards, Yvonne

Bardock42

Alpha Centauri
Precisely.

He wasn't writing the songs, people know this.

It's not unreliable (Wiki) in this case because that is actually what it is known as. In the UK, he isn't known as a songwriter, cos he isn't one.

-AC

yvonnekarate
Well, as I've said, I don't really know what to believe. But I guess I should say 'Chambers' then as one of my favourites instead of Williams. I'm not that stubborn that I would say 'I'm right' if I'm infact wrong.

Regards, Yvonne

yvonnekarate
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Precisely.

He wasn't writing the songs, people know this.

It's not unreliable (Wiki) in this case because that is actually what it is known as. In the UK, he isn't known as a songwriter, cos he isn't one.

-AC

Maybe you're right, I won't deny that. I just find it strange that it says so in my cds. It's not like I would make that up. That would just make me look even more stupid, as it makes me go on and on. wink

Regards, Yvonne

Bardock42
Originally posted by yvonnekarate
Well, as I've said, I don't really know what to believe. But I guess I should say 'Chambers' then as one of my favourites instead of Williams. I'm not that stubborn that I would say 'I'm right' if I'm infact wrong.

Regards, Yvonne Sounds fair.

ESB -1138
Alice Cooper is a good song writer. Oh and of course, Billy Joel. That man is a genius.

Bardock42
Originally posted by ESB -1138
Alice Cooper is a good song writer. Oh and of course, Billy Joel. That man is a genius. Probably the best songwriter ever.

Pezmerga
Roger Waters.

And Prince kicks Billy Joel's ass.

Kid Kurdy
Originally posted by Pezmerga
And Prince kicks Billy Joel's ass.
Hard to say. They are about the same height.

Arctic
Originally posted by Pezmerga
Roger Waters.

And Prince kicks Billy Joel's ass.

Lol, right. And I'm the king of Spain. laughing

Bardock42
Originally posted by Arctic
Lol, right. And I'm the king of Spain. laughing No, you are the idiot that likes Nickelback. smile

Arctic
Originally posted by Bardock42
No, you are the idiot that likes Nickelback. smile

Think what you will. big grin

ESB -1138
Originally posted by Pezmerga
And Prince kicks Billy Joel's ass.

Only in his dreams.

Victor Von Doom
Wait, when did Billy Joel become a credible comparison with Prince?

ESB -1138
Whene he easily outnumbers him in top 40 singles plus has easily outsold him in album sales despite Prince outnumbering Joel in number of albums.

Funkadelic
The 28 top 40 singles posted where the ones P only wrote for others.

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