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I don't mean the wisest, most powerful Jedi ever.

I mean the Jedi that was a perfect example for the order. Not a master..just a Jedi Knight that followed the Jedi Code...had feelings and was overall the definition of a Jedi Knight.

IMO Obi-Wan Kenobi fits the bill.

What is your thoughts fellas?

Obi-Wan Kenobi fits the bill perfectly. He was meant to be that.

I choose Revan XD

Obi-Wan Kenobi is the avatar of the Jedi Order. He represents all that they should be.

Kenobi is a great one. However, he was in love with Siri Tachi, and he nearly turned to the dark side when she died.


Voolvif Monn and K'Kruhk are great examples, but they are both masters. But maybe them as knights?

Anakin Skywalker.(lol)

YODA!!!

Originally posted by vader11
YODA!!!





Yoda is a Jedi Master.

Originally posted by darthsith19
Kenobi is a great one. However, he was in love with Siri Tachi, and he nearly turned to the dark side when she died.


Voolvif Monn and K'Kruhk are great examples, but they are both masters. But maybe them as knights? Obi-Wan touched the Darkside, recognized it's evil, and knew what to stay away from, very perfect.

Do u mean at the Rank of Jedi Knight?

Originally posted by Tangible God
Obi-Wan touched the Darkside, recognized it's evil, and knew what to stay away from, very perfect.
But that was at least the second time he used the dark side, the first being when Qui-Gon died, so no, not so perfect.

Originally posted by darthsith19
Yoda is a Jedi Master. I mean Yoda when he was a knight.
BTW, wasn't Obiwan a Master, too? lol

Originally posted by vader11
I mean Yoda when he was a knight.
BTW, wasn't Obiwan a Master, too? lol
Not in AOTC he wasn't. He didn't become a master until late in the Clone Wars.

Yes, I know.

Originally posted by darthsith19
But that was at least the second time he used the dark side, the first being when Qui-Gon died, so no, not so perfect. So, two good examples of the Dark Side. Both when he was young, still learning. By the time of his ascension to master-hood, he knew what to look out for.

Both when he was young? Dude, one was only a year before ROTS, he wasn't that young then. I'm sure there have been Jedi Knights who have never used the Dark Side.

http://www.swg1.net/encyclo/images/qui_gon_jin.jpg

He was the perfect jedi. The fact that he question things was good, he did not serve the republic or the jedi order b/c they told him to, but b/c he knew it was right. Kenobi and Yoda served the republic unconditionally just b/c that was the way it was always done. He also learned how to become a force ghost.

Dont know who the best. Obi-Wan is obviously the popular choice. But I would say that Luke and Revan are also good contenders for the title.

id say obi wan represented everything most jedi should aspire to. apart from wisdom and skill, he was patient, unattached enough to try and kill on someone who he considered a brother when the need arose and even as a padawan when his master was killed he was able to pull away from anger and aggression and center himself. not to mention he was about as humble as they come.

other than that id say qui gonn. he had his problems with the council, but it was mostly disagreeing with how rigid they were. he probably trusted in the force more than anyone else. rather than serving a corrupt senate unwaveringly he would do what he thought was right, whether it meant opposing the established order or not. rather than sit back and say "this is how we do things, and this is how things should be" hed just follow the force and changed accordingly. like yoda thought in his fight with sidious (in the novel), the sith had evolved and changed throughout the centuries, the jedi had remained become stagnant and had been left behind. their refusal to change and grow is a weakness qui gonn didnt suffer from. he followed the force, not alot of archaic rules that eventually failed the jedi to the point of near extinction.

I'd have to say that Revan is far from the title. After all, he became the Dark Lord of the Sith, the icon for all things evil.

I stand by Kenobi as my choice. Despite being tempted by the Dark Side and maybe reaching out to use it a few times, Kenobi knew that it was not the right path for anyone and chose to refuse its temptations.

All Jedi face this, though not all succeed.

Kenobi, FTW.

Kenobi

http://i16.tinypic.com/523rfd1.jpg

^ This is your god, mortals.

Obi-wan is THE Jedi. No question about that.

Obi Wan is THE Jedi. Might as well put a halo over his head

Behold! Obi-Wan Christ!

http://i15.tinypic.com/6byoox3.jpg

He died for our sins

Qui-Gon Jinn is the best example of the Jedi, brave, compassionate, selfless,not afraid to brake the rules, if means helping someone, helping others is more important then anything(seat on the council), the Livings Force greatest soon...

Breaking the rules is actually not a jedi like thing to do

Its not as much as braking, its more of bending.

Putting yourself before the Counsel invites hautyness and arrogance, which isn't a Jedi thing. Obviously, Qui-Gon waas anything but haughty or arrogant, but still..

Yea, but he did it for selfless reasons, he was more of a Jedi in the moment, wanting to help in the present, not waiting and deliberating for a long time, like the Council. And Qui-Gon was the most, down to earth Jedi, he wasn't arrogant at all.

Originally posted by Count Makashi
Yea, but he did it for selfless reasons, he was more of a Jedi in the moment, wanting to help in the present, not waiting and deliberating for a long time, like the Council. And Qui-Gon was the most, down to earth Jedi, he wasn't arrogant at all.

You can't forget the fact that Qui-Gon's blind faith almost led to the destruction of the Jedi forever.

Originally posted by Se7in
You can't forget the fact that Qui-Gon's blind faith almost led to the destruction of the Jedi forever.

Now that is -- and would be -- an excellent debate, Se7in. One could argue that Qui-Gon's 'foresight' was vastly superior any of his Jedi contemporaries at the time: including Masters Windu and Yoda. If I recall, correctly, Count Dooku mused that it was Yoda's blind devotion to the Jedi Code and related dogma that prevented him from seeing the complete picture (that is to say Darth Sidious's presence in the Republic, the ascendance of the dark side, the approaching endgame); Dooku pondered that how could Yoda be expected to see it, however, when he willingly had one eye shut?

That is not to say nor imply that Qui-Gon was more powerful than Yoda, but even Yoda himself laments in the RotS novelization that he was a fool not to have listened to Qui-Gon's knowledge and advice earlier, and he declares himself 'Qui-Gon's apprentice'. Never forget, it Qui-Gon who learned the way to becoming "one with the Force" and yet still retain some sort of sentience.

And, ultimately, Qui-Gon was correct: Anakin redeemed himself by destroying Emperor Palpatine and, in doing so, rebalancing the Force itself.

mohatma gandhi

Qui-Gon Jin is without a doubt the finest example of what a Jedi should be. As Gideon put, he focused more on the present than future, if he was still alive, he may of been able to realize the Sith threat and have it stopped before Palpatine could act(I am in no way saying Jin is stronger than Sidious of course).

Very good point on Qui-Gon, actually. I agree.

Except Kenobi is WTFbetter. So there.

Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan, obviously. While Obi-Wan adhered to the Jedi Code alittle too much and wasn't as openminded as Qui-Gon, he's still the second best.


P.S, 100px-100px avatar FTW!

Sure is nice to have sigs of veterans.

Originally posted by Gideon
Now that is -- and would be -- an excellent debate, Se7in. One could argue that Qui-Gon's 'foresight' was vastly superior any of his Jedi contemporaries at the time: including Masters Windu and Yoda. If I recall, correctly, Count Dooku mused that it was Yoda's blind devotion to the Jedi Code and related dogma that prevented him from seeing the complete picture (that is to say Darth Sidious's presence in the Republic, the ascendance of the dark side, the approaching endgame); Dooku pondered that how could Yoda be expected to see it, however, when he willingly had one eye shut?

That is not to say nor imply that Qui-Gon was more powerful than Yoda, but even Yoda himself laments in the RotS novelization that he was a fool not to have listened to Qui-Gon's knowledge and advice earlier, and he declares himself 'Qui-Gon's apprentice'. Never forget, it Qui-Gon who learned the way to becoming "one with the Force" and yet still retain some sort of sentience.

And, ultimately, Qui-Gon was correct: Anakin redeemed himself by destroying Emperor Palpatine and, in doing so, rebalancing the Force itself.

Interesting point of view. I just don't like the fact that Qui-Gon put prophecy and foresight before reason and logic. While he did manage to become one with the Force, he wasn't the first to do so, as it had been done for millenia, albeit it was a lost technique.

I didn't say he was the first one to do so, did I?

Originally posted by Gideon
I didn't say he was the first one to do so, did I?

No, but you give him special recognition for using a technique that was used by many.

Originally posted by Se7in
No, but you give him special recognition for using a technique that was used by many.

I gave him special recognition for a technique that enabled him to do what Yoda -- the most powerful Jedi in history prior to the ascension of Luke Skywalker (ie: more powerful than the 'many' you reference) -- was unable to do prior to declaring himself "Qui-Gon's apprentice". This not even mentioning the fact that the Jedi's ability to sense and see with the Force was stifled due to the dark side's ascendancy through the persona of Darth Sidious, the perpetual "unbalance" in the Force. When the 'many' you cite have achieved such a thing in such a tumultous occasion, let me know.

Qui-Gon is still my pick. He's also very wise.
"And as far as your wisdom goes, you're no Qui-Gon Jin!"-Anakin Skywalker to Obi-Wan.

It was more Obi's fault than Jin's that Anakin fell.

Originally posted by Gideon
I gave him special recognition for a technique that enabled him to do what Yoda -- the most powerful Jedi in history prior to the ascension of Luke Skywalker (ie: more powerful than the 'many' you reference) -- was unable to do prior to declaring himself "Qui-Gon's apprentice". This not even mentioning the fact that the Jedi's ability to sense and see with the Force was stifled due to the dark side's ascendancy through the persona of Darth Sidious, the perpetual "unbalance" in the Force. When the 'many' you cite have achieved such a thing in such a tumultous occasion, let me know.

Yoda's inability to perform such a feat had nothing to do with his power, he had never learned of the technique before.

You're seriously overstating this ability to see with the Force thing. Duron Qel-Droma fought during the Great Sith War as well as the Great Hunt and still managed to have visions of Revan's victory over Malak and Bastila's turn to the Dark Side.

I'm not trying to argue that Qui-Gon didn't do a good thing, but being considered one of "the" best Jedi Knights ever? I disagree. But your opinion is your own, and I respect it.

Qui-Gon's foresight had nothing to do with Anakin turning to the Dark Side. Qui-Gon had no idea Anakin would become what he did and do what he did.

Logic and reason are vey limiting. There was no warning signs about Anakin beyond "he's too old to begin the training." Qui-Gon did what he thought was best based on feeling and instinct. He was positive fate/The Force had led him to Anakin so he could become the Chosen One.

Now if Qui-Gon ignored these things, Obi-Wan Kenobi might never have become a Jedi at all. Thanks to the strict and limiting dogma/logic of the Jedi, Obi-Wan might have ended up working in the Agricultural Corps simply because he was too old and hadn't found a Master.

But fate and The Force drove Qui-Gon to Obi-Wan, keeping them together for adventure after adventure until finally, Qui-Gon did accept the young Kenobi as his Padawan.

Yeah, blame Kenobi for Anakin.

Originally posted by Violent2Dope
Yeah, blame Kenobi for Anakin.

Why is it somehow Kenobi's fault that Anakin is a whiny, self-victimizing power hungry asshat who is so dense that his "seduction" to the dark side consists of some old man telling him he's really good and that the people he's lived with all his life and fought with and defended were
"really bad" and "holding him back". Let's be quite frank here- I'm sure there's a lot of disgruntled yet talented generals, warriors, and soldiers from all sets of time and genre, but none of them were so easily swayed as Anakin.

Anakin: They hold me back! Wah!!!

Palpatine: You should be power-hungry and selfish. I can show you how. You should kill the Jedi, because they're going to take over an entire universe-wide government by swinging their lightsabers and holding you back.

Anakin: You're right!

*Kills the Jedi*

There's a saying that goes "You can't save them all; you just have to hope you're not near them when they finally go off." Well, Anakin was going to go off. Period.

You can blame Qui-Gon, or Kenobi, or Mace Windu and Yoda and the Tooth Fairy, in the end Anakin's choices were Anakin's choices.

I'm aware of that:



...I'm not suggesting that Qui-Gon is somehow stronger, or that Yoda is somehow weaker, or that they are even on par. What I am suggesting is that he -- without learning any 'technique' -- became one with the Force when the most powerful Jedi in the history of the Order prior to Luke Skywalker didn't know the technique himself, Yoda's age and experience notwithstanding. Yes, that is very impressive.



No. I'm not.

Mace Windu in Attack of the Clones: "Perhaps we need to inform the Senate that the Jedi are losing their power to sense in the Force."

The Clone Wars' impact on the Force far outstrips anything previous. This includes the Great Sith War. Palpatine and his Sith presence put it in a perpetual state of unbalance, thus requiring the birth of the Chosen One to correct this error. Numerous sources including Labyrinth of Evil and the RotS novelization have outright said that the Sith and the Jedi have "grown stronger" over the years in comparison to the old days -- but the dark side ascendancy is stifling their ability to sense the Force.

Ergo, it is ridiculous to even attempt to compare the two instances, Se7in. The instance of the Force during the Great Sith War is nothing in comparison.



That's fine. But try not to take my argument out of context or make invalid comparisons.

@ Janus:

...I personally don't consider it as cut and dry (though it is close). You can't blame any person other than Anakin for his fall -- he made the choice -- but that isn't to say that he simply did so just because he felt like it. He was manipulated into such a state of immaturity. He went from a kid who loved the hell out of everyone he met -- people he went out of his way to help -- into a dark psychopath. You don't make such a transformation without special circumstances.

But whoever tried to blame it on Obi-Wan is... lol... laughable.

I don't really think it was Obi's fault Anakin fell, my post was mostly aimed at the dude who said it was Jin's fault.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
Why is it somehow Kenobi's fault that Anakin is a whiny, self-victimizing power hungry asshat who is so dense that his "seduction" to the dark side consists of some old man telling him he's really good and that the people he's lived with all his life and fought with and defended were
"really bad" and "holding him back". Let's be quite frank here- I'm sure there's a lot of disgruntled yet talented generals, warriors, and soldiers from all sets of time and genre, but none of them were so easily swayed as Anakin.

Anakin: They hold me back! Wah!!!

Palpatine: You should be power-hungry and selfish. I can show you how. You should kill the Jedi, because they're going to take over an entire universe-wide government by swinging their lightsabers and holding you back.

Anakin: You're right!

*Kills the Jedi*

There's a saying that goes "You can't save them all; you just have to hope you're not near them when they finally go off." Well, Anakin was going to go off. Period.

You can blame Qui-Gon, or Kenobi, or Mace Windu and Yoda and the Tooth Fairy, in the end Anakin's choices were Anakin's choices.

http://img413.imageshack.us/img413/3357/ep3tot1zy2.gif

Lol that cartoon is hilarious.

Originally posted by Gideon
I'm aware of that:



...I'm not suggesting that Qui-Gon is somehow stronger, or that Yoda is somehow weaker, or that they are even on par. What I am suggesting is that he -- without learning any 'technique' -- became one with the Force when the most powerful Jedi in the history of the Order prior to Luke Skywalker didn't know the technique himself, Yoda's age and experience notwithstanding. Yes, that is very impressive.

He was taught the technique by a Shaman, therefore he did learn the technique. Much knowledge of said techniques was lost in the former wars against Dark Jedi, even as far back as the Jedi Civil War.



The Jedi and Sith have "grown stronger" based on quotes? I've already stated my distaste in such measurements of power and skill. I believe that feats and accomplishments show much more, and judging from the average Jedi and both their terrible abilities at the Battle of Geonosis and their terrible performance against Dark Siders in saber-to-saber combat, I disagree that they're stronger at all.

Why is it ridiculous to compare the two? A war against armies of Sith has less stifling effects than those against a hidden enemy? Granted it is mentioned, that to me makes no sense.

Originally posted by Jack of Storms
http://img413.imageshack.us/img413/3357/ep3tot1zy2.gif

You've misunderstood me, so I'll clarify: he wasn't given instruction on this technique from another Jedi -- something that isn't common knowledge anymore. That the most powerful Jedi in the history of the Order (a Jedi over eight centuries old) was ignorant of the technique whereas Qui-Gon -- primarily due to his lack of blind faith in the Force and in the Jedi Order itself (he was realistic, not stupid) -- learned it. Yoda himself says that he still has much to learn, which is why he dedicates himself to becoming the late Qui-Gon's "apprentice".



You had to ask, lol, at a bad time. You'll have to wait before I can provide the quotes to you verbatim, as I don't have my copy of Labyrinth of Evil on hand. However, the omniscient narrator reflects that "two-hundred years before the rise of Darth Sidious, the dark side had been gaining strength" -- and "the Sith, too, were pleased that the Jedi had been allowed to grow so strong" (it goes on to mention, I think, that it would make their 'victory' so much more sweeter).



That's true, but it doesn't make them any less valid, especially when the quotes are dictated by the omniscient narrator. George Lucas (the guy nothing -- not even feats and accomplishments can contradict) himself has referred to the prequel trilogy as "the prime of the Jedi" and "the golden age of the Jedi" -- and since the greatest war (up to that point) was coming into fruitation at that point, I highly doubt he was referring to 'peace' (and statements have been made that the Jedi 'dwindled down' to a 'mere 10,000', thus removing the possibility of referring to numbers).



I'm sorry you feel that way, Se7in. But the fact of the matter remains. The Jedi were fewer in number and -- according to several sources (Yoda himself included: "blinded are we, if forsee the development of the clone army, we could not" -- the Jedi were losing their ability to sense the future with the Force. It's not a stretch to assume that this would also include precognition even in battle. Nevermind the simple fact that their adversaries possessed technology and capabilities that vastly outstrip anything prior. The CIS or Republic would utterly curbstomp the **** out of any faction present in the Great Sith War, so why is it so difficult to believe that they simply weren't winning?

Meanwhile, what terrible performance against dark siders? You mean the dark siders who were certainly weren't being hindered by the rising dark side?



It's not so cut-and-dry, Se7in. Those 'armies of Sith' aren't coming close approaching the level of strength in the dark side possessed by Palpatine (who is a "black hole of the Force", "an event horizon", "darkness beyond darkness" according to the RotS novelization) and his apprentices. The fact that the Chosen One was destined to act during this time ought to make it clear that the Force was in a great tumult (specifically, it was unbalanced) whereas that was never the case during the Great Sith War.





I can find more. But to compare the two is ridiculous, as I said. The PT Sith caused far, far more damage and destruction and unbalance in the Force than any Sith prior to them, ever.

PT era on a whole is the strongest age, tho there are some older Jedi/Sith who would be powerful in the PT age.

Even if we ignore quotes that you deem "ambiguous", Escape's theory is on the right track. Palpatine was destined to lead the sith out of hiding and was so strong in the force (having the entire dark side at his command), that the force created the Chosen One to combat this threat.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Even if we ignore quotes that you deem "ambiguous", Escape's theory is on the right track. Palpatine was destined to lead the sith out of hiding and was so strong in the force (having the entire dark side at his command), that the force created the Chosen One to combat this threat.

Bingo.



Oh, yeah.

I'm not suggesting, stating, or implying that every PT Jedi is more powerful than every Jedi prior to him or her. I'm sure that Vodo or Kavar or Revan or whatnot would curbstomp the hell out of any random PT Jedi. Just as I'm sure Marka Ragnos would manhandle Darth Maul in a fight (Force-wise, at any rate). But the dark side of the Force was stronger with the modern Sith (PT, that is) than it was with the older ones.

Originally posted by Gideon
Oh, yeah.

I'm not suggesting, stating, or implying that every PT Jedi is more powerful than every Jedi prior to him or her. I'm sure that Vodo or Kavar or Revan or whatnot would curbstomp the hell out of any random PT Jedi. Just as I'm sure Marka Ragnos would manhandle Darth Maul in a fight (Force-wise, at any rate). But the dark side of the Force was stronger with the modern Sith (PT, that is) than it was with the older ones. No Nihilus?

I love debating you Gideon, you don't throw around insults.

Originally posted by Gideon
You've misunderstood me, so I'll clarify: he wasn't given instruction on this technique from another Jedi -- something that isn't common knowledge anymore. That the most powerful Jedi in the history of the Order (a Jedi over eight centuries old) was ignorant of the technique whereas Qui-Gon -- primarily due to his lack of blind faith in the Force and in the Jedi Order itself (he was realistic, not stupid) -- learned it. Yoda himself says that he still has much to learn, which is why he dedicates himself to becoming the late Qui-Gon's "apprentice".

No, I understood, I just believe that saying because Yoda didn't know the technique and Qui-Gon did makes him great in any way is a stretch. Yoda had no way to know of it, and Qui-Gon learned it from a third-party Yoda never happened to meet or come upon, which makes the comparison null in my point of view.



Others have brought up the fact that authors vary in how and why stories are told. Though Lucas can give his stamp of approval for every one of these quotes, I don't think it means we should go around claiming that because a statement using absolute adjectives are used describing people, as the case of Yoda and Anoon Bondara, we should immediately assume they are massively powerful or skilled, despite what their actions prove.



Even if it isn't referring to numbers, it still doesn't have to refer to skill and power of the Jedi, since you've already tried proving the point that the Jedi were arguably at their weakest due to this "shroud" of the Sith. So which is it? "Golden age" could refer to perhaps their influence in galactic affairs or even their popularity among the Republic citizens. There's no way to tell.

You also bring up the greatest war of all time. This doesn't prove the Jedi's skill at all, considering the Republic had the greatest army the galaxy had ever seen up to that point, with the Clones being better than any average soldier and any droid, the Jedi weren't exactly fighting this war alone.




So a combined army of Sith don't possess the strength of Dark Side influence Palpatine had? More quotes that mean nothing, given what we see from his abilities in the movies. I'll admit, Palpatine is an INCREDIBLY strong Sith Lord, but having more influence than an army of Sith? I beg to differ. Also, if the prophecy proves correct, Anakin was not "forced" to act until seeing the threatening of his own son's life and after the Jedi Order had been destroyed. Having less than a hundred Jedi and having a "mere" 10,000 is a big difference in when he chose to act, considering Anakin knew that Luke was literally the last of the Jedi, since he had been hunting Obi-Wan and Yoda for years and that their death had finally come. This shows even further that the purge was not enough for the Chosen One to act, therefore perhaps Palpatine's influence wasn't as great as previously thought.

Originally posted by Jack of Storms
http://img413.imageshack.us/img413/3357/ep3tot1zy2.gif

Amen to that.

http://i8.tinypic.com/660cgac.jpg

You do realize GL stated that the reason he didn't make the Jedi and Sith look superhuman in the movies was for the reality effect? Palpatine is NO doubt the strongest of Bane's lineage by TPM and by ROTS he's the strongest sith ever. There's MORE than enough evidence for this, not to mention him single handidly unbalancing the force against 10,000 Jedi. Your logic is severely flawed by your bias.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
Amen to that.

http://i8.tinypic.com/660cgac.jpg

Maddox is a g0d.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
You do realize GL stated that the reason he didn't make the Jedi and Sith look superhuman in the movies was for the reality effect? Palpatine is NO doubt the strongest of Bane's lineage by TPM and by ROTS he's the strongest sith ever. There's MORE than enough evidence for this, not to mention him single handidly unbalancing the force against 10,000 Jedi. Your logic is severely flawed by your bias.

Where did GL say he did this? Be specific please. Lots of people slinging around claims and statements but no one is specific. I'm sure you're familiar with a basic works-cited page that needs to be submitted with any essay or argument stance you work on in school. I'm sure you're aware of why such a page is neccessary.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
You do realize GL stated that the reason he didn't make the Jedi and Sith look superhuman in the movies was for the reality effect? Palpatine is NO doubt the strongest of Bane's lineage by TPM and by ROTS he's the strongest sith ever. There's MORE than enough evidence for this, not to mention him single handidly unbalancing the force against 10,000 Jedi. Your logic is severely flawed by your bias.

I'm biased because I go against what everyone here believes? I'm just trying to state what makes sense for me.

How is he the strongest Sith ever by ROTS? What has he done to prove such? We've seen ancient Sith Lords do much greater things than lifting Senate Pods and Force Lightning. I don't know what Palpatine has done that makes him so powerful, please show me so I can get rid of this bias.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
Where did GL say he did this? Be specific please. Lots of people slinging around claims and statements but no one is specific. I'm sure you're familiar with a basic works-cited page that needs to be submitted with any essay or argument stance you work on in school. I'm sure you're aware of why such a page is neccessary.

Yea I am aware, I just assumed most of you had the sources. I'll look for it but I believe part of it was in the ROTS commentary. I'll watch it tonight and let you know tomorrow but I'm pretty damn sure I've either heard or saw GL say this..

Originally posted by Se7in
I'm biased because I go against what everyone here believes? I'm just trying to state what makes sense for me.

How is he the strongest Sith ever by ROTS? What has he done to prove such? We've seen ancient Sith Lords do much greater things than lifting Senate Pods and Force Lightning. I don't know what Palpatine has done that makes him so powerful, please show me so I can get rid of this bias. Like throwing a brick?

Originally posted by Se7in
I'm biased because I go against what everyone here believes? I'm just trying to state what makes sense for me.

How is he the strongest Sith ever by ROTS? What has he done to prove such? We've seen ancient Sith Lords do much greater things than lifting Senate Pods and Force Lightning. I don't know what Palpatine has done that makes him so powerful, please show me so I can get rid of this bias.

Have you ever read sithisis? It's where he summons the ancient sith back from hell (or whatever the SW universe calls it), multiplies Anakin's rage through the force, and rains down lightning upon Coruscant. Not to mention he's lifted a star destroyer before. The only one who can even compare in feats of power (excluding the powerful ancient sith because they are for the most part, unknown), would be Exar Kun. But as Escape put it, Sidious unbalanced the force so much by himself, and against 10,000 Jedi, that the Chosen One was born.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Have you ever read sithisis? It's where he summons the ancient sith back from hell (or whatever the SW universe calls it), multiplies Anakin's rage through the force, and rains down lightning upon Coruscant. Not to mention he's lifted a star destroyer before. The only one who can even compare in feats of power (excluding the powerful ancient sith because they are for the most part, unknown), would be Exar Kun. But as Escape put it, Sidious unbalanced the force so much by himself, and against 10,000 Jedi, that the Chosen One was born.

Really? Alright, I've underestimated him then, but I still don't believe his acts are vast improvements over what ancient Sith did, with Naga Sadow destroying stars and creating illusions of entire armies on distant planets.

And how do we know Sidious unbalanced the force single-handedly? The Jedi hadn't seen the Sith in so long, they almost believed they didn't exist anymore. Sidious had a long line of people before him who could have put in just as much influence at the Force being so out of tune. I just find it so contradictory how everyone says PT Jedi are the strongest, yet have the worst connection to the Force. These two statements make no sense when put together.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Have you ever read sithisis? It's where he summons the ancient sith back from hell (or whatever the SW universe calls it), multiplies Anakin's rage through the force, and rains down lightning upon Coruscant. Not to mention he's lifted a star destroyer before. The only one who can even compare in feats of power (excluding the powerful ancient sith because they are for the most part, unknown), would be Exar Kun. But as Escape put it, Sidious unbalanced the force so much by himself, and against 10,000 Jedi, that the Chosen One was born.

Definately let me know how that comes about with the commentary, btw.

And really, have we ever established beyond a reasonable doubt that the Chosen One phenomenon was unique and without precedent? You could argue that the Sith have continuously unbalanced the Force (As GL notes it, by their very ideals and presence they do so. GL says in the Chosen One documentary on the Episode III DVD that Vader fulfills the prophecy by killing himself and the Emperor; he never says anything about ending the Sith for all time.) for millenia untold. Simply because the prophecy was not lauded in earlier eras does not preclude that each had their own "chosen one/ones". Certainly, you could say that Anakin "brought balance", but he could not have done so without help from Luke, who was in turn aided by Yoda and Han and Obi-Wan and so on. You can't tie any one person to a single resolution any more than you can pick one raindrop and blame it for a storm.

So yeah, there's what I think of the Chosen One "zomg" Theory... crock of absolute shit.

Naga Sadow destroying stars? You mean with the ship's sith technology? Nihilus drained a planet by himself, so did Sidious. Creating illusions? That's cute, Aleema was doing the same thing, although on a lesser scale. The sad fact is, Ragnos was the last of the uber powerful sith, and the ones that followed were plain garbage, which is why they became extinct.

We know he unbalanced the force single handidly. What was the quote. "A sith was born with the power to bring the sith out of hiding and destroy the Jedi. That sith was Darth Sidious". He unbalanced the force single handidly because the Jedi could no longer use the force to their fullest abilities, and they couldn't see the conspiracy in the Clone Wars.

The PT Jedi ARE the strongest as a whole, unless you want to argue with GL. It has less to do with THEIR connection to the force and more to do with the fact that Sidious was the chosen one of the sith. Hell, the greatest jedi by that point was unable to beat Sidious. All the sources are there, you just have to learn to be objective.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
Definately let me know how that comes about with the commentary, btw.

And really, have we ever established beyond a reasonable doubt that the Chosen One phenomenon was unique and without precedent? You could argue that the Sith have continuously unbalanced the Force (As GL notes it, by their very ideals and presence they do so. GL says in the Chosen One documentary on the Episode III DVD that Vader fulfills the prophecy by killing himself and the Emperor; he never says anything about ending the Sith for all time.) for millenia untold. Simply because the prophecy was not lauded in earlier eras does not preclude that each had their own "chosen one/ones". Certainly, you could say that Anakin "brought balance", but he could not have done so without help from Luke, who was in turn aided by Yoda and Han and Obi-Wan and so on. You can't tie any one person to a single resolution any more than you can pick one raindrop and blame it for a storm.

So yeah, there's what I think of the Chosen One "zomg" Theory... crock of absolute shit.
That's a very plausible theory. For me it's logical that because Sidious clearly seemed to be the Chosen One, or the Sith'ari, or whatever you want to call him (perfect Sith Being), the force countered that plague with a "chosen one", born of pure force energy. It's like that whole Neo thing I suppose. After reading comics like Sithisis, I've never seen a sith that mixed sith alchemy+sith magic+sith power to the extent that Sidious did. I don't think there's really a question of him being the most powerful. The question should be, who comes after?

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
\Nihilus drained a planet by himself, so did Sidious. [/QUOTEI'm pretty sure that was different than what Nihilus did.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Naga Sadow destroying stars? You mean with the ship's sith technology? Nihilus drained a planet by himself, so did Sidious. Creating illusions? That's cute, Aleema was doing the same thing, although on a lesser scale. The sad fact is, Ragnos was the last of the uber powerful sith, and the ones that followed were plain garbage, which is why they became extinct.

Didn't know that. Point taken, you're right, but to say every SL after Ragnos was garbage is just plain wrong.



He did so through subtelty and deception, not overwhelming power. He had an army and one of the most prominent Jedi of the era to do his bidding. Palpatine was no chump, but he certainly didn't do it alone. This quote doesn't really prove anything about his power, however it does speak volumes of his strategy and tactics.

Palpatine's Movie Powers:

-master of Force Concealment. He can be standing right next to people like Yoda or Mace and they have no clue he's a Force User whatsoever.
-powerful Force lightning. There does have to be a note that Palpatine's lightning WAS stronger than Dooku's as AOTC Obi-Wan could block it with one-handed ease while it took all of Mace's power to hold it at bay with his saber.
-Force sense. Sure Yoda and Obi-Wan could sense mass loss of life but Palpatine, on Coruscant, sensed Vader, on Mustafar, was in danger.
-TK. Senate pods are not exactly small and Palpatine, while laughing, was lifting 3 of them up.

now, of course, these feats on their own do not put him above every Sith Lord. But since every Sith Lord minus himself, Dooku, Vader and Maul are EU - and the Sith everyone argues are stronge rthan him are pure EU - I don't ee why EU sources shouldn't be taken into accout for Palpatine.

Also, it's EU saying he's the strongest Sith ever by ROTS. So, we should take into account EU sources for ROTS Palpatine's power. Like tha ritual he did in Sithisis and more minor things like casually owning a group of ARC Troopers with one move.

Originally posted by Shin_Nikkolas
Palpatine's Movie Powers:

-master of Force Concealment. He can be standing right next to people like Yoda or Mace and they have no clue he's a Force User whatsoever.
-powerful Force lightning. There does have to be a note that Palpatine's lightning WAS stronger than Dooku's as AOTC Obi-Wan could block it with one-handed ease while it took all of Mace's power to hold it at bay with his saber.
-Force sense. Sure Yoda and Obi-Wan could sense mass loss of life but Palpatine, on Coruscant, sensed Vader, on Mustafar, was in danger.
-TK. Senate pods are not exactly small and Palpatine, while laughing, was lifting 3 of them up.

The Force Concealment and Sense are impressive, I'll admit. To hide his power from Yoda, when in the same room is ridiculous.



I didn't know of any of these EU sources, the only thing anyone every throws about Palpatine in a debate is the GL quote about him being the most powerful Sith Lord ever. I just don't consider that adequate information.

Originally posted by Se7in
Didn't know that. Point taken, you're right, but to say every SL after Ragnos was garbage is just plain wrong.
How is it wrong? Ragnos was stated as the greatest and the best of the ancient sith. We know that most dark side techniques were invented during the ancient sith era. We know that Bane read about ancient sith swallowing star systems and all that. It's VERY fair to say that the ancient sith were at their peak somewhere between 6900 BBY-5200BBY. After Ragnos, there was nobody. Sadow wouldn't even talk down to his ghost.





No, he effectively destroyed the jedi order through cunning and manipulation. However, it was his dark side power that gave him the ability to do this without being caught, and severely diminished the JEdi ability to see the future through the force, or even the present.

Originally posted by Se7in
The Force Concealment and Sense are impressive, I'll admit. To hide his power from Yoda, when in the same room is ridiculous.



I didn't know of any of these EU sources, the only thing anyone every throws about Palpatine in a debate is the GL quote about him being the most powerful Sith Lord ever. I just don't consider that adequate information.

This quote was written in NEC. However there are PLENTY of sources that easily make Sidious #1. Hell, by DE the Ancient Sith claimed that he was the greatest AND the strongest of them all.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
This quote was written in NEC. However there are PLENTY of sources that easily make Sidious #1. Hell, by DE the Ancient Sith claimed that he was the greatest AND the strongest of them all.

I'm talking about ROTS Sidious, DE Sidious is a completely different character. Seriously, I didn't know people were talking about the same guy. Just as NJO Luke and DN Luke are completely different, I would never consider the two. DE Sidious has nothing to go on from the movies, therefore I know nothing about him and can't make an educated statement on him.

I was just adding that fact. Sidious had the entire dark side and the ancients at his disposal by ROTS..

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
That's a very plausible theory. For me it's logical that because Sidious clearly seemed to be the Chosen One, or the Sith'ari, or whatever you want to call him (perfect Sith Being), the force countered that plague with a "chosen one", born of pure force energy.

Actually, that doesn't make any sense at all. Sidious can't be the Chosen One or the Sith'ari. And even if you typo'd, I doubt Anakin qualifies because the Sith'ari is supposed to lead the Sith and he never did that. It's really more likely that they were alluding the Bane when it was first mentioned.



You mean you're basing your newfound respect for Sidious on a Visionaries comic?

You do realize that those same guys had Obi-Wan Kenobi fight a Darth Maul's cybernetic replacement in a clearly non-canon duel, right? And that Visionaries are meant to explore SW universe in what is considered a "free reign" type of experiment? You can't take any of them seriously as canon, unless they are given an exception status by the Holocron.

Originally posted by Se7in
I'm talking about ROTS Sidious, DE Sidious is a completely different character. Seriously, I didn't know people were talking about the same guy. Just as NJO Luke and DN Luke are completely different, I would never consider the two. DE Sidious has nothing to go on from the movies, therefore I know nothing about him and can't make an educated statement on him.

I think a lot of people can't differentiate between the amazingly uber DE Sidious and the rather lackluster RotS Sidious.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
Actually, that doesn't make any sense at all. Sidious can't be the Chosen One or the Sith'ari. And even if you typo'd, I doubt Anakin qualifies because the Sith'ari is supposed to lead the Sith and he never did that. It's really more likely that they were alluding the Bane when it was first mentioned.
I think my point was that when Sidious was born, he basically had the dark side at his command with his incredible power. As a result, the force countered this with the birth of the chosen one. Again it's just a theory.



You mean you're basing your newfound respect for Sidious on a Visionaries comic?

You do realize that those same guys had Obi-Wan Kenobi fight a Darth Maul's cybernetic replacement in a clearly non-canon duel, right? And that Visionaries are meant to explore SW universe in what is considered a "free reign" type of experiment? You can't take any of them seriously as canon, unless they are given an exception status by the Holocron.

I know the Darth Maul was n-canon, but I believe Sithisis is indeed considered canon. I could be wrong though but it would make sense.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
I think a lot of people can't differentiate between the amazingly uber DE Sidious and the rather lackluster RotS Sidious.

Haha. I can.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
I know the Darth Maul was n-canon, but I believe Sithisis is indeed considered canon. I could be wrong though but it would make sense.

Before you put it forth as gospel, you need to substantiate its canon standing. I bet you didn't even know it was Visionaries until I brought it up, to be quite frank. Or if you did, you didn't stop to consider the implications of that title.



Se7in, you are among the rare minority. I think I'll stop objecting to the nonsense when people realize that DE Sidious != RotS Sidious.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
Before you put it forth as gospel, you need to substantiate its canon standing. I bet you didn't even know it was Visionaries until I brought it up, to be quite frank. Or if you did, you didn't stop to consider the implications of that title.



Se7in, you are among the rare minority. I think I'll stop objecting to the nonsense when people realize that DE Sidious != RotS Sidious.

I know it's visionaries, because I've read all of those stories at once.. Now do I know what that means in terms of cnaon policy? I haven't the foggiest notion..

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
I know it's visionaries, because I've read all of those stories at once.. Now do I know what that means in terms of cnaon policy? I haven't the foggiest notion..

I thought they were, which is why I created the "Is Grievous Force Sensitive" thread, which highlights Sifo-Dyas blood transfusion into Grievous and Dooku giving Grievous Dyas's lightsaber, however numerous others have contested the canonity of said content, so I am unsure as well.

I'm not sure how a blood transfusion would even allow Force sensitivity, even if you took some kind of Star Trek liberties with it.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
I'm not sure how a blood transfusion would even allow Force sensitivity, even if you took some kind of Star Trek liberties with it.

Eh, I left all of the details about why I thought so in the other thread, I just considered since there really was nothing mystical about the Force, considering it can be artificially infused in living beings in numerous ways including Artusian crystals, cloning, and the Valley of the Jedi, I figured such a medical procedure could enable Grievous with latent force abilities.

However Hord disproved such a theory, realizing that Grievous had such little biological entity left, that even with a blood transfusion from the most powerful of Jedi, he still wouldn't have enough to use the Force.

What i'm wondering is, if DE Sidious had the ability to give non force sensitive, force powers, why wouldn't it be a possibility with blood transfusion?

The Force is just microscopic bacteria in your bloodstream.

Taking all of someone else's blood into you, if this person has a lot of these things, should give you the Force.

The perfect Jedi? It's Yoda or Kenobi. Qui-Gon probably had the best philosophies, though.

Originally posted by Shin_Nikkolas
The Force is just microscopic bacteria in your bloodstream.

Taking all of someone else's blood into you, if this person has a lot of these things, should give you the Force.

Actually, midi-chlorians are based on mitichondria, which is less of a free-floating bacteria and more of a symbiotic organism in the genes. Several points in EU cite genetic manipulation as being a tentative way to enhance or add midi-chlorians to a sentient, but blood transfusion simply wouldn't work. If simply having the blood made you a Force user, gangsters everywhere would be knocking off padawans and draining them dry.

Indeedy. Methinks that there must be some sort of attachement to the individual that the midi-chlorians form, maybe? Otherwise, there would be a lot of blood-draining.

As for the Visionaries comics, they are completely non-canon, though they are fun to read.

Hmmmm I didn't know they were non canon. I'm pretty sure Sidious was a master of sith alchemy and sith magic and all that and this basically summed up what he was doing. Where does it say all of them are non canon? I know the one with Maul is but I don't know about the others...

I'm just as guilty of throwing around insults and bashing as anyone else; the difference is that I try to avoid doing it now because it is absolutely unnecessary, and -- from my perspective -- it's a sign of weakness (frustration, anger, fear... and we all know where that goes... ).



And I fail to see how. Were it some pathetic technique that had no real significance, I would subscribe to the same logic that you have. But, in this case, Qui-Gon -- again, because he does not blindly follow the ideals of the Jedi Order like a sheep being led to the slaughter -- learned to master a technique of ground-shattering significance that Yoda -- the most powerful Jedi Master in history, an eight hundred year old sage -- did not know. That strikes me as very impressive. But, as always, I'm willing to understand that your interpretation isn't the same as mine.



Se7in, this particular section of your rebuttal doesn't measure up to your regular submissions. You're attempting to debate the issue based on author variations? I can understand specific issues -- I myself have a major issue with the constant fluctuations regarding Luke Skywalker. One minute: he's SuperJedi, the all powerful Light Sider, and the next minute, he's having problems with a single droideka. Ultimately, authors do at times contradict other authors and other feats of power. But the quotes provided from Labyrinth of Evil comport themselves with the Complete Visual Dictionary and the Ultimate Visual Guide and the RotS novelization itself. Meaning that, if you argue this route, you will be so hard-pressed to actually make a convincing argument that this discussion could go on indefinately.



Pardon? I didn't say that at all. I said that the Jedi were losing their ability to sense into the future, which would naturally include all types of precognition available to them -- not that they were somehow being stifled entirely or were somehow weaker for it. They were unable to sense the presence of the last Dark Lord of the Sith amongst them; the most powerful of the Jedi at the time had regular meetings with him, they sat face-to-face, and they didn't suspect him for a moment. They could not see the development of the clone army, even when one of their own was responsible. They could not see the true force behind Nute Gunray, the Confederacy of Independant Systems, and even Count Dooku. Yoda himself laments in Labyrinth of Evil that Darth Sidious was "so powerful" that he could instruct his apprentice to expose him, and still remain hidden.

The only time the Jedi came close to discovering Darth Sidious's identity was when Nute Gunray abandoned his mechno-chair to Republic forces as he escaped Cato Nemoidia. It allowed Republic analysts to capture an image of Sidious and a transmission from Gunray addressing the Dark Lord as "Lord Sidious". This allowed Yoda and the others to come close, and Yoda realized that the Dark Lord was on Coruscant the whole time and they still could not identify him.

It's not that the Jedi were weak. It's that the 'shroud of the Dark Side' was blinding them.



Influence in galactic affairs? Most citizens and several Jedi -- Count Dooku and Qui-Gon amongst them -- believed that the Jedi were slaves to the corrupted Republic. Several sources also cite that the Jedi were secretly hated by its citizens (they viewed the war to be a result of Jedi meddling; the Jedi Order spearheading an army of clones, meanwhile, a former prominent Jedi was helming the rebellious movement) -- which is why Palpatine so easily deceived the Senate into believing that the Order was responsible for the entire war. Most of the population already, secretly, believed it in the first place.

So that nails "influence" and "popularity" shut.



I actually found this out last night (there's a debate about the number on SD.net) -- but did you know that it is canon that the number of Clonetroopers during the Clone Wars was only between 1.2 million and 3.2 million (that's bullshit since the Red Army during World War II had in excess of 9 million soldier casualties -- before, even, they conquered Berlin)? The Republic's ground forces were outnumbered. And you make it seem as if the Jedi Order were tipping the scales; yeah, they helped, but you forget that this war was regulated and controlled. The Complete Visual Dictionary states that Darth Sidious maintained a sort of 'balance' for most of the war, allowing neither faction to gain too many victories or too many advantages. It's not as if he let loose the floodgates and allowed the Jedi free reign, otherwise, yes, they probably would have beat down the CIS easier than what was shown -- though the droids would be a pain in the ass for the Clones. Remember: the goal behind the Clone Wars was twofold: to give Sidious grounds to create his Empire and to thin the ranks of his only threat: the Jedi. Even prior to the Clone Wars, he used every opportunity he had to kill as many Jedi as he could. Outbound Flight is but one.

This is all underlined, again, by the simple fact that the Jedi's farseeing and precognition was horrendously stifled.



That's the general idea, yes.

Incorrect; these quotes are, unfortunately, more than what you've got, Se7in. Dismissing them as "nothing" without proving it -- and then basing it off of "shown abilities" -- is inabsolute and it's a very fragile counterargument.

In fact, let's take it one step farther: Anakin Skywalker. Anakin Skywalker is the Chosen One. This is a fact. Anakin Skywalker has the potential to be more powerful than Yoda or Sidious. This is a fact. Anakin Skywalker -- as stated by Yoda in Dark Rendezvous and Mace Windu in Shatterpoint -- is stronger in the Force than any Jedi (and Sidious himself).

...Yet, from what we see in the movies, does he generate or demonstrate such strength? Nope. Hell, if not for the previous statements, one would never get the idea that he could even come close to rivalling Yoda in the Force.

Are you going to argue, then, that Anakin is obviously not stronger in the Force than Yoda, since he doesn't demonstrate it? I don't think so.

You're confusing "strength in the Force/Dark Side" with "combat abilities". They are not interchangeable. They are not the same.



Again, you're confusing "strength in the Force (in this case, the dark side)" with "combat abilities". There. Is. A. Difference. Palpatine would manhandle any KOTOR-era Sith (with the possible exception of Nihilus) in a duel; and he is most certainly stronger than any of them in the Force (including Nihilus).

Count Dooku -- looking at Sidious "with the eyes of the Force" (Force sense) -- views Sidious as "darkness beyond darkness", "an event horizon", "a black hole of the Force". Nevermind the simple fact that he was so powerful in the Force that it was destroying his body. You don't get stronger in the dark side, so corrupted, than that.



Anakin always had a choice. The second he discovered Palpatine's identity, he could have killed him. He didn't. He did the 'mature thing' and informed the Council.

The second that Mace Windu had Palpatine, cornered and disarmed, he had a plethora of choices: he could allow Mace to bring him to trial, allow Mace to kill him, or do it himself. The difference was, he had been manipulated at that point, blinded by his love for a woman that transcended his loyalty to the Order or to the galaxy as a whole.

The third and final opportunity presented itself then. The role was reversed, however. Anakin's love for Luke transcended Vader's love/loyalty to power and to Palpatine. He redeemed himself and killed his master.

Palpatine's 'influence' on both Anakin and on the Force is inarguably supremely great. And that was why the Chosen One acted then, the Force correcting itself. It didn't happen with Revan. It didn't happen with Ragnos. It happened with Palpatine, and that's concrete.

I have something to say, tho Sidious was indeed a threat to the galaxy, and needed to be stopped, which as Gideon put is the reason the Chosen One was made, to me, I think Nihilus would qualify as a bigger threat than even Palpatine. I am in no way saying he is stronger, only the difference in their goals. Sidious desired to rule the galaxy unopposed with an iron(or rather nasty and wrinkly lol) fist, and life was certainly hell, but Nihilus seeked to do much more than that, if Nihilus was left alive, there would be no galaxy. Nihilus cared only about feeding his hunger, he would have turned on the Sith after the Jedi, and then would have devoured the galaxy when they were gone. To me that seems much worse than being ruled under an Emperor.

Originally posted by Violent2Dope
I have something to say, tho Sidious was indeed a threat to the galaxy, and needed to be stopped, which as Gideon put is the reason the Chosen One was made, to me, I think Nihilus would qualify as a bigger threat than even Palpatine. I am in no way saying he is stronger, only the difference in their goals. Sidious desired to rule the galaxy unopposed with an iron(or rather nasty and wrinkly lol) fist, and life was certainly hell, but Nihilus seeked to do much more than that, if Nihilus was left alive, there would be no galaxy. Nihilus cared only about feeding his hunger, he would have turned on the Sith after the Jedi, and then would have devoured the galaxy when they were gone. To me that seems much worse than being ruled under an Emperor.

In a sense, you're very much correct. But the problem is that you seem to be unaware of certain details about Emperor Palpatine's 'agenda', so to speak, and you seem to be confusing other, minor issues, so I will do my best to clarify.

It is not my justification for Palpatine's death bringing balance to the Force that he was "a threat to the galaxy". You misunderstand; his presence was causing an unprecedented disturbance in the Force itself -- which extends well beyond the galaxy. So, yes, in that sense, you're correct. Emperor Palpatine's tyranny, though vicious and malevolent, was not as brutal as Darth Nihilus's glutton-based scheme to remove all Force-wielding life from the galaxy. For, as you say, Palpatine seemed to ultimately just want to lord over his galaxy.

But here is what most people are not aware of: ruling the galaxy was the Sith Order's ultimate plan; it wasn't Palpatine's. Ultimately, as detailed in the Dark Empire sourcebook, Palpatine -- after his death at Endor -- became quite mentally unstable. If it could be said that he had any control over his raw power prior to his death, it is most certain that he was losing control over it then. Consider Palpatine a more intelligent, more patient, and a more controlled version of Darth Nihilus. The Dark Empire states the following:



...Publius and several others have made convincing arguments that Palpatine toyed with the above idea during his reign as Galactic Emperor. However, it was his first death at the hands of Anakin Skywalker that inspired him to accelerate his mad ambitions. So, as you can see, ultimately Palpatine was not only a greater threat to the Force -- but he was a very threat to the universe itself, not isolated to just one galaxy. In that regard, he was indeed worse than Nihilus.

Fortunately, his spirit was destroyed before he could carry this out. As it were, I'm not here to debate Sidious. As much as I enjoy the character, Janus is right in that it seems everywhere I go, I turn it into a Sidious-based discussion.

Let's not have that here. If you'd like to discuss it further, a new thread or PM will do.

Originally posted by Gideon
In a sense, you're very much correct. But the problem is that you seem to be unaware of certain details about Emperor Palpatine's 'agenda', so to speak, and you seem to be confusing other, minor issues, so I will do my best to clarify.

It is not my justification for Palpatine's death bringing balance to the Force that he was "a threat to the galaxy". You misunderstand; his presence was causing an unprecedented disturbance in the Force itself -- which extends well beyond the galaxy. So, yes, in that sense, you're correct. Emperor Palpatine's tyranny, though vicious and malevolent, was not as brutal as Darth Nihilus's glutton-based scheme to remove all Force-wielding life from the galaxy. For, as you say, Palpatine seemed to ultimately just want to lord over his galaxy.

But here is what most people are not aware of: ruling the galaxy was the Sith Order's ultimate plan; it wasn't Palpatine's. Ultimately, as detailed in the Dark Empire sourcebook, Palpatine -- after his death at Endor -- became quite mentally unstable. If it could be said that he had any control over his raw power prior to his death, it is most certain that he was losing control over it then. Consider Palpatine a more intelligent, more patient, and a more controlled version of Darth Nihilus. The Dark Empire states the following:



...Publius and several others have made convincing arguments that Palpatine toyed with the above idea during his reign as Galactic Emperor. However, it was his first death at the hands of Anakin Skywalker that inspired him to accelerate his mad ambitions. So, as you can see, ultimately Palpatine was not only a greater threat to the Force -- but he was a very threat to the universe itself, not isolated to just one galaxy. In that regard, he was indeed worse than Nihilus.

Fortunately, his spirit was destroyed before he could carry this out. As it were, I'm not here to debate Sidious. As much as I enjoy the character, Janus is right in that it seems everywhere I go, I turn it into a Sidious-based discussion.

Let's not have that here. If you'd like to discuss it further, a new thread or PM will do. Kay, thanks, that made alot of sense. On topic, I still say it's Qui-Gon.

Originally posted by Violent2Dope
Kay, thanks, that made alot of sense. On topic, I still say it's Qui-Gon.

No problem.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Hmmmm I didn't know they were non canon. I'm pretty sure Sidious was a master of sith alchemy and sith magic and all that and this basically summed up what he was doing. Where does it say all of them are non canon? I know the one with Maul is but I don't know about the others...They're all non-canon, DS. The authors are concept artists, and the stories are simply their way of contributing something original to the series.

And as a rule, random collections of stories which contain obviously contradictory material (the first several volumes of SW Tales) are generally considered as such, unless indicated otherwise.

LS says that 'Sithisis' features in the Ultimate Visual Guide on a page detailing Palpatine's rise to power, and I believe REX told me that one of them concerning Mon Mothma's son is also canon.

Originally posted by Gideon
LS says that 'Sithisis' features in the Ultimate Visual Guide on a page detailing Palpatine's rise to power, and I believe REX told me that one of them concerning Mon Mothma's son is also canon.

You mean the same Ultimate Visual Guide which calls Visas Marr a "Jedi apprentice of Darth Sion", written by a bunch of guys noted for making guides to for Spider-Man, Batman, Hulk and The Transformers?

And Rex just earlier posted that Visionaries are all non-canon, which makes a good deal of sense considering that they're just a compilation of well-illustrated short stories made by visual artists. They're not meant to be real EU material.

Qui Gon was the wisest.

Luke the most powerful.

But Yoda and Mace are by far the coolest.

Obi Wan had the best all-round game. Diplomat, force, wise, pilot, battle exp., and sword fighter.

Ithink Ajass Ventress And Aurra Sing even though Aalya beat Aurra.

Obi-wan is the perfect example of a Jedi Knight. He is meant to be a counter to Anakin's arrogance and thirst for power.

If we are talking what it MEANS to be a Jedi Knight then its between Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan IMO. I'd give it to ol'Ben though.

id go with both qui gon and obi..even though both were tempted by the darkside, they both overcame it...they are perfect examples of jedi knights and what they represent..

Mace Windu anyone. Great diplomat, able pilot, 2nd best with lightsaber and force, wise, and down to earth type of guy.

you mean mace as a knight, not a master?

I don't think the thread-creator means it as much as the rank but the Jedi overall universal name. It's what their known by and called throughout the galaxy. So I think Masters can fit here to.

Originally posted by Darth Martin
Mace Windu anyone. Great diplomat, able pilot, 2nd best with lightsaber and force, wise, and down to earth type of guy.
Down to earth, meh......Sam L Jackson acted like he had a plug up his bum in the movies.

he also took care of those snakes on a plane...